--------------------------------------------------
From: "Alejandro Gustavo Neri benito wamberto" <whenareu@...>
Sent: Friday, December 25, 2009 9:22 AM
To: <christian_sword@yahoogroups.com>
Subject: RE: [Christian_Sword] Re: How can the true Christian message get to
the many immigrating muslims

> --------------------------------------------------
> From: "Alejandro Gustavo Neri benito wamberto" <whenareu@...>
> Sent: Sunday, December 20, 2009 4:34 PM
> To: <christian_sword@yahoogroups.com>
> Subject: RE: [Christian_Sword] Re: How can the true Christian message get
> to
> the many immigrating muslims

> If this is refering to selected Christians then you are correct, after all
> they are the only ones invading and occupying countries.

It's referring to Muslims -- you know, the suicide bomber people, the people
who like to kill lots of innocent people by crashing airplanes, and so
forth.  You know, Muslims?

> Something which you reject. As God according to you is a trinity 3 but yet
> 1. Something which was not taught by Jesus.

Taught by the Bible and confessed by true Christians everywhere.

> Sorry -- the God of the Bible had this covered in Exodus 3:14.

> On the contrary you believe God does have deficiencies. According to you
> Jesus is God he died.

That's not a deficiency, and you might as well drop your straw man
arguments -- no one is impressed by them.

> Again something you reject in the strongest of ways. You believe Jesus was
> a begotten son.

Begotten from all eternity, true God from God.

> Sorry -- the God of the Bible had this covered in Isa 55:8-9

> Sorry again something which you reject in the stongest of ways. You again
> believe Jesus is God, people saw him, he was a man in form like other men.
> <<

More straw man claims.

When you understand what Chrstian doctrine really teaches, then we can have
a conversation.

N.E. Barry Hofstetter

Fecisti nos ad te et inquietum est cor nostrum, donec requiescat in te...
     -- Augustine, Confessions 1:1

http://mysite.verizon.net/nebarry/
http://my.opera.com/BarryHofstetter/blog/

Lets look at the whole quotation in 1 Thess 4:

"Indeed, we tell you this, on the word of the Lord, that WE WHO ARE ALIVE , WHO
ARE LEFT  UNTIL the coming of the Lord,  will surely not precede those who have
fallen asleep....

Then WE WHO ARE ALIVE , WHO ARE LEFT, will be caught up together with them in
the clouds to meet the Lord in the air."

Clearly, some expect to be ""alive" and to be "left until."

Matt 10 "..YOU shall not finish all the cities of Israel, till the Son of man
come"

Again, during the Apostles' lifetime.

The "context" ploy just doesn't cut it. The plain meaning of words say what it
says.

And it just didn't happen.

CH

--- In Christian_Sword@yahoogroups.com, "Barry" <nebarry@...> wrote:
>
>
>
> --------------------------------------------------
> From: "church.historian" <church.historian@...>
> Sent: Sunday, December 20, 2009 9:36 AM
> To: <Christian_Sword@yahoogroups.com>
> Subject: [Christian_Sword] Was Jesus or the scripture writer in error?
>
> > Was Jesus wrong about the Secon Coming coming during the lifetime of his
> > generation?  Or are the scriptures in error on this point?
>
> Jesus is never wrong.  Some of his interpreters, now...
>
> > Speaking of the Second Coming, Jesus (or Paul) claimed that:
> >
> > Matt 16 "� there are some of them that stand here, that shall not taste
> > death,"
> >
> > Luke 9 "�: There are some standing here that shall not taste death"
> >
> > Matt 10 "�you shall not finish all the cities of Israel, till the Son of
> > man come"
> >
> > Matt 26"�hereafter you shall see the Son of man sitting on the right hand
> > of the power of God, and coming in the clouds of heaven."
> >
> > Mark 14 "�And you shall see the Son of man sitting on the right hand of
> > the power of God"
> >
> > Matt 24 "�Amen I say to you, that this generation shall not pass, till all
> > these things be done."
> >
> > Mark 13 "�.Amen I say to you, that this generation shall not pass, until
> > all these things be done.
>
> You really need to read these in context.  Particularly in the "little
> apocalypse" passages, Jesus is contrasting the destruction of Jerusalem in
> 70 A.D. with his final return, and why the two should not be confused.
>
> > 1 Thess 4  "�.we who are alive, who remain unto the coming of the
Lord,��
> > . Then we who are alive, who are left, shall be taken up together with
> > them in the clouds to meet Christ,"
> >
>
> The "we" is representative, not inclusive.
>
> Barry
>
> Biblical Literacy:  First line defense against heresy...
>
> Historical Theology (church history): The next best thing...
>
> http://my.opera.com/barryhofstetter/blog
> http://mysite.verizon.net/nebarry
>

RESPONSE:

Unfortunately, I do. Jesus and Paul were in error. The Second Coming did not
occur during their generation.

CH

--- In Christian_Sword@yahoogroups.com, Truth Shines <truth.shines@...> wrote:
>
> You a church historian and can not answer those questions? Maybe you can not
understand scriptures?
>
>
>
>
> ________________________________
> From: church.historian <church.historian@...>
> To: Christian_Sword@yahoogroups.com
> Sent: Sun, December 20, 2009 9:36:13 AM
> Subject: [Christian_Sword] Was Jesus or the scripture writer in error?
>
>  
> Was Jesus wrong about the Secon Coming coming during the lifetime of his
generation? Or are the scriptures in error on this point?
>
> Speaking of the Second Coming, Jesus (or Paul) claimed that:
>
> Matt 16 "… there are some of them that stand here, that shall not taste
death,"
>
> Luke 9 "…: There are some standing here that shall not taste death"
>
> Matt 10 "…you shall not finish all the cities of Israel, till the Son of man
come"
>
> Matt 26"…hereafter you shall see the Son of man sitting on the right hand of
the power of God, and coming in the clouds of heaven."
>
> Mark 14 "…And you shall see the Son of man sitting on the right hand of the
power of God"
>
> Matt 24 "…Amen I say to you, that this generation shall not pass, till all
these things be done."
>
> Mark 13 "….Amen I say to you, that this generation shall not pass, until all
these things be done.
>
> 1 Thess 4 "….we who are alive, who remain unto the coming of the Lord,……
. Then we who are alive, who are left, shall be taken up together with them in
the clouds to meet Christ,"
>

--------------------------------------------------
From: "Alejandro Gustavo Neri benito wamberto" <whenareu@...>
Sent: Sunday, December 20, 2009 4:34 PM
To: <christian_sword@yahoogroups.com>
Subject: RE: [Christian_Sword] Re: How can the true Christian message get to
the many immigrating muslims

>
> Muslims or atleast believing Muslims think they are right.

We Are Right - WAR.

> This essentially is the Muslim concept of God:

> It is Chapter 112 which only consists of 4 verse. (Brackets is my text)

> 1. Say: He is Allah, the One and Only; (Meaning he one and only one, he
> has no partners nor requires any)

Sorry -- the God of the Bible had this covered in Deut 6:4.

> 2. Allah, the Eternal, Absolute; (He is free from deficiencies,
> shortcomings, he has no weaknesses, he has no beginning nor does he have
> an end)

Sorry -- the God of the Bible had this covered in Exodus 3:14.

> 3. He begetteth not, nor is He begotten; (He is not not born nor has he a
> son or daughter nor does he require any children, he is free from such
> wants)
>

Sorry -- the God of the Bible had this covered in John 1:1-18 (with clear
indications from OT passages such as Isa 9:6ff).

> 4. And there is none like unto Him. (Meaning he is unique, he has no
> equal, nothing in this world or universe resembles him, nor can we imagine
> him, as our imagination is limited to this world)

Sorry -- the God of the Bible had this covered in Isa 55:8-9

Looks like Mohammed stole all his good stuff from the Bible (all the errors
must have come from elsewhere).

N.E. Barry Hofstetter

Fecisti nos ad te et inquietum est cor nostrum, donec requiescat in te...
     -- Augustine, Confessions 1:1

http://mysite.verizon.net/nebarry/
http://my.opera.com/BarryHofstetter/blog/

--------------------------------------------------
From: "church.historian" <church.historian@...>
Sent: Sunday, December 20, 2009 9:36 AM
To: <Christian_Sword@yahoogroups.com>
Subject: [Christian_Sword] Was Jesus or the scripture writer in error?

> Was Jesus wrong about the Secon Coming coming during the lifetime of his
> generation?  Or are the scriptures in error on this point?

Jesus is never wrong.  Some of his interpreters, now...

> Speaking of the Second Coming, Jesus (or Paul) claimed that:
>
> Matt 16 "� there are some of them that stand here, that shall not taste
> death,"
>
> Luke 9 "�: There are some standing here that shall not taste death"
>
> Matt 10 "�you shall not finish all the cities of Israel, till the Son of
> man come"
>
> Matt 26"�hereafter you shall see the Son of man sitting on the right hand
> of the power of God, and coming in the clouds of heaven."
>
> Mark 14 "�And you shall see the Son of man sitting on the right hand of
> the power of God"
>
> Matt 24 "�Amen I say to you, that this generation shall not pass, till all
> these things be done."
>
> Mark 13 "�.Amen I say to you, that this generation shall not pass, until
> all these things be done.

You really need to read these in context.  Particularly in the "little
apocalypse" passages, Jesus is contrasting the destruction of Jerusalem in
70 A.D. with his final return, and why the two should not be confused.

> 1 Thess 4  "�.we who are alive, who remain unto the coming of the
Lord,��
> . Then we who are alive, who are left, shall be taken up together with
> them in the clouds to meet Christ,"
>

The "we" is representative, not inclusive.

Barry

Biblical Literacy:  First line defense against heresy...

Historical Theology (church history): The next best thing...

http://my.opera.com/barryhofstetter/blog
http://mysite.verizon.net/nebarry

I wish you a Merry Christmas!

Hannah

2. Allah, the Eternal, Absolute; (He is free from deficiencies, shortcomings, he has no weaknesses, he has no beginning nor does he have an end)

3. He begetteth not, nor is He begotten; (He is not not born nor has he a son or daughter nor does he require any children, he is free from such wants)

 
4. And there is none like unto Him. (Meaning he is unique, he has no equal, nothing in this world or universe resembles him, nor can we imagine him, as our imagination is limited to this world)

 

Was Jesus wrong about the Secon Coming coming during the lifetime of his
generation?  Or are the scriptures in error on this point?

Speaking of the Second Coming, Jesus (or Paul) claimed that:

Matt 16 "… there are some of them that stand here, that shall not taste death,"

Luke 9 "…: There are some standing here that shall not taste death"

Matt 10 "…you shall not finish all the cities of Israel, till the Son of man
come"

Matt 26"…hereafter you shall see the Son of man sitting on the right hand of the
power of God, and coming in the clouds of heaven."

Mark 14 "…And you shall see the Son of man sitting on the right hand of the
power of God"

Matt 24 "…Amen I say to you, that this generation shall not pass, till all these
things be done."

Mark 13 "….Amen I say to you, that this generation shall not pass, until all
these things be done.

1 Thess 4  "….we who are alive, who remain unto the coming of the Lord,…… . Then
we who are alive, who are left, shall be taken up together with them in the
clouds to meet Christ,"

Are they right?

CH

--- In Christian_Sword@yahoogroups.com, Hannah Miriam <baruch_emmet@...> wrote:
>
> dbb wrote:
> Muslims are immigrating to many European countries as well as to the Americas.
They need to hear the message of the true Christian gospel, but will they
listen? Welcoming them and treating them as brothers is a first step but will
they listen to the good news of Christianity?
>
> ---------------
>  
> To answer your question, first you must thoroughly read and understand what
the Quran and the Hadith teaches about Christianity (and Judaism). Then you
might have some idea of how difficult you will have it trying to talk Muslims
into believing that Christianity is a better interpretation of the life of
Jesus.... from their perspective, you are proposing idolatry.
>  
> Good luck!
>  
> Hannah
>  
>
>
>  
> "...Well, now that we have seen each other," said the Unicorn, "If you'll
believe in me, I'll believe in you."
> -- Through the Looking Glass by Lewis Carroll
>  
> It is all a matter of perspective
>
http://www.youtube.com/v/oG0a9WFkgzU&color1=0xb1b1b1&color2=0xcfcfcf&feature=pla\
yer_embedded&fs=1
>  
>  
>

Hello, all!

Sorry, been gone for a bit due to end of semester demands.

When I got back today, my mailbox had over 300 daily digests in it.

If there was something you'd still like to see me respond to from the time I've
been gone, please link me to the post and I'll take a look...


I hope all here are having a giving season of family, warmth, and light,
regardless of personal beliefs or religous affiliation....

and a Merry Christmas to my Christian friends!

To my Jewish friends... Chag Sameach!

Hannah

Muslims are immigrating to many European countries as well as to the Americas.
They need to hear the message of the true Christian gospel, but will they
listen? Welcoming them and treating them as brothers is a first step but will
they listen to the good news of Christianity?

David,

Out of curiosity,what sources did you read that show this?


Julie

--- In Christian_Sword@yahoogroups.com, "CalKnight" <christianswordowner@...>
wrote:
>
> Julie,

> It's one thing to look at the data and try to fit it into your model of how
the universe works, it's another thing to outright lie about it, or literally
DESTROY data that doesn't fit it! (As did happen with this "Climate Gate"
scandal.)

Dear group,

And bribery you shall not take, for a bribe will blind those who can see, and distort the words of the righteous. Exodus 23:8

Someone once noted that there is a difference between someone who is blind, and someone who is prejudiced by bias. When a person is blind, he realizes it and will ask for help. But a bias blinds us to such an extent that we aren't even aware of our blindness.

The first step out of this is awareness of the bias. Then, we can ask for the perspectives of a couple other people to help ensure that we are properly recognizing the reality of a situation.

Blessings,

Angelica

Support Israel this holiday season!

www.IBuyIsraeli.com

10% off your first order!

David,

Read it however you want. I conceded that evolutionists "can" be wrong,and it
"may" be possible that evolutionists have lied about "facts" for their
advancement.

Sure,it's a possibility evolutionists could be blowing smoke out their ears,why
not? It could also be possible that the pastor of the church at the end of my
street is a hypocritical liar to boot. Is he? I highly doubt it,but he "could"
be. See? We can all "fudge" things if it suits our purpose. People always have
done this,that's how it goes. And everything you accuse evolutionists of
doing,is also said of creationists "agendas" as well (like I've said before.)So
deal with that however you choose,it's really no bother to me. *shrugs*

Do "I" personally believe evolutionists are wrong or somehow lying about facts?
No,I don't. I believe they are giving us the best facts as they presently know
them. I choose evolutionary "science" over creationist "science" because from
everything I've studied from both sides (keyword here is "BOTH")evolutionary
"science" makes a far more convincing,logical,and above all,more believable
argument in its' theories than does creation "science." I have no need
whatsoever to subscribe to the creationist (specifically young earth)philosophy.
Maybe some Higher Power did after all have a hand in the creation of
everything,maybe not. Who knows? It's interesting to ponder,but I'm not overly
troubled about it one way or the other.

But out of curiosity,why do you say evolution is as much or more,"faith based"
as creationism? There are definitive reasons why creationism is labeled
"religion" and evolution is labeled "science."


Julie



--- In Christian_Sword@yahoogroups.com, "CalKnight" <christianswordowner@...>
wrote:
>
> Julie,
>
> So you acknowledge that evolutionists CAN be wrong, and it IS possible they
have have lied about "facts" to advance their agenda...
>
> It's one thing to look at the data and try to fit it into your model of how
the universe works, it's another thing to outright lie about it, or literally
DESTROY data that doesn't fit it! (As did happen with this "Climate Gate"
scandal.)
>
> Many evolutionists don't even want to acknowledge the existence of or the
arguments of "Intelligent Design" (ID), let alone Creationism. Heck, there are
even Atheists that ID is possible.
>
>
http://post-darwinist.blogspot.com/2008/11/atheist-defends-ntelligent-design.htm\
l
>
> The differences between Creationism and evolutionism, is that Creationism (or
ID) is called religion, and evolutionism, even though it too has its fanatics,
its "priests", and its citadels is somehow more "scientific", which I'm trying
to point out is as much, or more faith based as the first!
>
> David
>
>

Really? All of them? How about "God exists"? Is that false too?

--- In Christian_Sword@yahoogroups.com, Fred schulz <fredoftampa@...> wrote:
>
> if its Catholic its a false docrtine
> Catholicism is a system based upon A WORKS SALVATION
> Based upon the OT LAW,
> THEY REJECT GOD'S GRACE
> .
> and rely upon their works to regain and retain their salvation, via
> Confession
> penances, good deeds, water baptism,
>
> Their works are based upon a Wrong/False Doctrine of a continous lost and
> found salvation based upon their personal works and sinning mortal sins
>
> On Wed, Dec 9, 2009 at 2:31 PM, church.historian <church.historian@...
> > wrote:
>
> >
> >
> > There are several caterories of infallibe teachings which are supposed to
> > be
> > "irreformable" ie cannot be changed in any manner.
> >
> > Most are familiar with the papal ex cathedra infallible teaching and the
> > infallible teachings of ecumenical councils.
> >
> > But there's a third type?
> >
> > THE CHURCH'S MAGISTERIUM by John Young (on the web)
> >
> > "The term ordinary universal Magisterium means an exercise of the Church's
> > teaching office where there is complete agreement, or fairly close to
> > complete agreement, among the Catholic Bishops of the world that a
> > particular doctrine is certainly true, but without a solemn definition.....
> >
> > "The extraordinary Magisterium is infallible. A definition given by a
> > GeneralCouncil or an ex cathedra definition by a Pope cannot be erroneous.
> > Likewise,the ordinary universal Magisterium is infallible. The fact that the
> > bishops aredispersed throughout the world' (in the words of Vatican II
> > quoted above) does
> > not make any difference."
> >
> > Any disagreement so far?
> >
> >
> >
>