Hi all,

The internet has provided me with far too many conflicting rates and
formulae for calculating whether an external water bath for a stainless
steel boiler will or will not provide sufficient heat.

I'd very much appreciate it if an engineer on the list would give this a
once over:

T1 = 105 degC (water + table salt jacket)
T2 = 78 degC (mash)
Heat transfer coefficient = no idea... Ignoring it for the moment.
K = approx 14 W(m2 . K) (I have seen more figures for SS than I care to
poke sticks at. This is the most conservative, and is for 270K, so
anything better would be super).
Q = Watts
A = Area = .64m2
D = thickness of the SS wall = approx 2 mms

Q/A = (T1 - T2) / (D . 1/K)

Q/A = (27) / (.002  / 14)
     = 27 . 7000
     = 189,000

Q = 189,000 . 0.64
   = 120.96 kW

So, what I'd like to know is -- will a 2mm stainless steel wall for an
area of .64m2 allow heat to pass through at a rate of up 120kW for that
temperature differential? Even approximately? As long as it's higher
than 3 or 4kW I'm happy. Unfortunately some formulae I've found
suggested the figure would be closer to 800W...

Cheers and thanks,
Andrew

Andrew, a mash temperature will typically vary inbetween 90C (~17%) -
99C (~1%) during operation. IMO you'll get missleading results by
using 78C for mash temperature.

- Riku

--- In Distillers@yahoogroups.com, Andrew Forsberg <andrew@u...>
wrote:
> Hi all,
>
> The internet has provided me with far too many conflicting rates and
> formulae for calculating whether an external water bath for a
stainless
> steel boiler will or will not provide sufficient heat.
>
> I'd very much appreciate it if an engineer on the list would give
this a
> once over:
>
> T1 = 105 degC (water + table salt jacket)
> T2 = 78 degC (mash)
> Heat transfer coefficient = no idea... Ignoring it for the moment.
> K = approx 14 W(m2 . K) (I have seen more figures for SS than I
care to
> poke sticks at. This is the most conservative, and is for 270K, so
> anything better would be super).
> Q = Watts
> A = Area = .64m2
> D = thickness of the SS wall = approx 2 mms
>
> Q/A = (T1 - T2) / (D . 1/K)
>
> Q/A = (27) / (.002  / 14)
>     = 27 . 7000
>     = 189,000
>
> Q = 189,000 . 0.64
>   = 120.96 kW
>
> So, what I'd like to know is -- will a 2mm stainless steel wall for
an
> area of .64m2 allow heat to pass through at a rate of up 120kW for
that
> temperature differential? Even approximately? As long as it's higher
> than 3 or 4kW I'm happy. Unfortunately some formulae I've found
> suggested the figure would be closer to 800W...
>
> Cheers and thanks,
> Andrew

That's a very good point. Well, even at only 1 deg C difference the rate
is 4.4kW for that area of 2mm SS wall. The other problem will have to be
how to insulate the jacket optimally. One thing at a time.

So, do those calculations look even roughly correct to you?

Cheers
Andrew


abbababbaccc wrote:

>Andrew, a mash temperature will typically vary inbetween 90C (~17%) -
>99C (~1%) during operation. IMO you'll get missleading results by
>using 78C for mash temperature.
>
>- Riku
>
>
>

This is about five times more expensive as the same material is available on the
free market.

bradr36 <bradr36@...> wrote:http://tinyurl.com/cje38

--- In Distillers@yahoogroups.com, "californiashiner"
<califshiner@t...> wrote:
> Had a pest exterminating company seal my home, Old adobe brick.  The
> material they used to plug the holes is the stuff that's needed for
the
> reflux column.  Should be a lot cheaper than buying "pot scrubbers".
> 5" x 100 feet of copper mesh is $40 (USD) plus shipping. Contact
> through www.flybye.com or US 800 820 1980.  Ted




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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Hi Mark,
Apologies for not responding earlier.  The real world claimed my
attention for a while.  :)
Replies interspersed...

--- In Distillers@yahoogroups.com, "markapp" <markapp@y...> wrote:
> Congradulations harry on a well written well thought out unit. One
> bonus of the crossflow condensor that i did not notice mention of
is
> the symetry. When looking at the offset head reflux i notice some
> hbbyists have added tripod support column to boiler to help with
the
> off-balance issue. the crossflow head apears to have very good
> properties of balance.I have no clue if this would or would not
> negate the need for bracing but it has to be better for balance of
> weight than the offset weight of an offset head.



...............Mine balances fine just the way it is as you see in
the Eureka Still in the file.  No extra support necessary.



Just a thought but
> based on recent exchanger discusion regarding flow direction on
the
> coil type condensor have you considered the possibility of
> incorporating say 2 pass to the desighn? A horizontal baffle plate
in
> one end of the water header 1/2 way up (an even number of cross
tubes
> on each side) the other end common with feed and discharge bottom
and
> top on the same end as the baffle or dam? The reduced resitance to
> flow is of course dependant on many tubes so this may interfere
with
> attempting to make 2 pass. Another alteration that may or may not
> bear investigation would a larger diameter shorter length
crossflow
> top end possibly be more efficient? Upside more room for more
tubes
> reducing resitance downside 3 inch fittings more costly.


..................This condenser at its present size has been tested
to easily handle 1800w input.  I haven't done all the calculations
but I do believe it will go considerably higher, as it largely
depends on the throughput of coolant per minute, rather than the
actual size of the unit (up to a point, of course).  Multipass is
always an option but it adds to the complexity of construction, and
the cost, for not much gain in a condenser of this size.  Remember
the principle K.I.S.S.  In its present iteration, it's extremely
adequate for the equipment (meaning column sizes) we are using at
present.  It's a simple matter to upsize it (fries with that?) if
necessary for larger diameter columns.


Hope the
> theoretical questions don't bother you too much it is so easy to
peck
> at a desighn so difficult to create one. Good work thanks for
sharing
> it with the public at large.


.............Thank you for the kind words.  Just trying to do my bit
for the hobby.  A man could easily get hit by a car tomorrow, and if
not published, the knowledge would be lost until someone else
stumbles on the ideas.  This way it's out there, and be damned to
any beaurocrat who wants to supress it.  ;-)
(Note to self: get off the soapbox, Harry).

Slainte!
regards Harry

Harry wrote:
> (Note to self: get off the soapbox, Harry).

Harry, I hope you never get off the soapbox.  Your input to this
group is invaluable. I know I don't often have time to devote to
the group, but I _always_ enjoy your posts.  Keep up the good work.

Adam

--
Adam Donnison                                  email: adam@...
Saki Computer Services Pty. Ltd.
93 Kallista-Emerald Road                        phone: +61 3 9752 1512
THE PATCH  VIC 3792    AUSTRALIA                fax:   +61 3 9752 1098

I seem to be in a creative mood, how about making an inverted liebig
version of that crossflow condenser? It should be quite easy to build
with reglular plumbing components and when properly sized could easily
take 1kW or a bit more.

- Riku

--- In Distillers@yahoogroups.com, "abbababbaccc" <abbababbaccc@y...>
wrote:
> I seem to be in a creative mood, how about making an inverted liebig
> version of that crossflow condenser? It should be quite easy to
build
> with reglular plumbing components and when properly sized could
easily
> take 1kW or a bit more.
>
> - Riku



Hi Riku,
I don't know if you realise it, but you've just hit on the reason why
I decided to put the vapour OUTSIDE the cooling tubes.  Think about
this...1ml of liquid produces some 45ml of vapour (roughly).
Therefore it's logical to let the vapour expand into a large capacity
cylinder, and the coolant to be in the smaller capacity side of the
shell/tube configuration, no?  Crossflows, liebigs, multipass etc can
all be designed on this principle.  The chemical engineers here will
confirm this concept.  I don't remember the 'rule-of-thumb' but there
is a way of working out which fluid should occupy the shell-side and
which should occupy the tube-side of a heat exchanger.  If I find it
among all my notes (25gig) I'll post it.


Slainte!
regards Harry

Well, that's the reason I said INVERTED Liebig, ie. just a straight
tube where water flows and a vapor jacket around it. With high
capacity pump you could make it quite short and the construction
would be very easy with standard plumbing components. Finding a
proper sizing is naturally another matter. The reason I thought about
this is that a large part of distillers here use 2" columns and
heating elements in the neighborhood of 1kW.

As an example a 50cm piece of 15mm pipe and water flow of
180liters/hour should cool off 1 kW. Increasing the pipe size to 22mm
allows using 35cm long condenser for that power. This is theory of
course. In practise you'd have to find proper size for the vapor
jacket and make sure the vapor actually flows around the condenser
pipe.

- Riku

--- In Distillers@yahoogroups.com, "Harry" <gnikomson2000@y...> wrote:
> --- In Distillers@yahoogroups.com, "abbababbaccc"
<abbababbaccc@y...>
> wrote:
> > I seem to be in a creative mood, how about making an inverted
liebig
> > version of that crossflow condenser? It should be quite easy to
> build
> > with reglular plumbing components and when properly sized could
> easily
> > take 1kW or a bit more.
> >
> > - Riku
>
>
>
> Hi Riku,
> I don't know if you realise it, but you've just hit on the reason
why
> I decided to put the vapour OUTSIDE the cooling tubes.  Think about
> this...1ml of liquid produces some 45ml of vapour (roughly).
> Therefore it's logical to let the vapour expand into a large
capacity
> cylinder, and the coolant to be in the smaller capacity side of the
> shell/tube configuration, no?  Crossflows, liebigs, multipass etc
can
> all be designed on this principle.  The chemical engineers here
will
> confirm this concept.  I don't remember the 'rule-of-thumb' but
there
> is a way of working out which fluid should occupy the shell-side
and
> which should occupy the tube-side of a heat exchanger.  If I find
it
> among all my notes (25gig) I'll post it.
>
>
> Slainte!
> regards Harry

Contact the Feds for a permit.  Contact your state/ local people for
unique registrations that apply solely to your area.  Thank you ANYONE
that has information about state/ local requirements from your
area--including fire codes, or other applicable rules.  I'm keeping a
reference list and would appreciate knowing more.  You can find
information about state benefits such as tax rebates on the Internet...
but that is not what is implied.

Thanks for letting us all know if there are further applications or
rules.  To return our country's strength, we need to return the power to
the people... and this includes energy and food production practices.
Hopefully the hubs (cities) will begin to take on producing more of our
consumer goods so our products are not all made in China.  What basic
skills are we teaching our children?  Can they cook or work with hobbies
that produce a serviceable item or is it only how to operate a Game Boy
and remote control.  Well, maybe we can pass on the ability to make our
own fuel and build with materials that are not energy consumptive.

Best wishes,
Peggy

Peggy G Korth
BioFuels Energy Corporation
(830) 885-7409 Voice
(830) 885-7416 Fax
(210) 288-0999 Cell
rpk@...  Email
www.biofuelsenergycorp.com


-----Original Message-----
From: Distillers@yahoogroups.com [mailto:Distillers@yahoogroups.com] On
Behalf Of californiashiner
Sent: Tuesday, May 31, 2005 10:27 PM
To: Distillers@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [Distillers] Yea! 'course I'm in CA

Who do I contact to get fuel permits - State & Fed.?
Great Solution!

--- In Distillers@yahoogroups.com, "abbababbaccc"
<abbababbaccc@y...> wrote:
> Well, that's the reason I said INVERTED Liebig, ie. just a
straight
> tube where water flows and a vapor jacket around it. With high
> capacity pump you could make it quite short and the construction
> would be very easy with standard plumbing components. Finding a
> proper sizing is naturally another matter. The reason I thought
about
> this is that a large part of distillers here use 2" columns and
> heating elements in the neighborhood of 1kW.
>
> As an example a 50cm piece of 15mm pipe and water flow of
> 180liters/hour should cool off 1 kW. Increasing the pipe size to
22mm
> allows using 35cm long condenser for that power. This is theory of
> course. In practise you'd have to find proper size for the vapor
> jacket and make sure the vapor actually flows around the condenser
> pipe.
>
> - Riku



Your theory is broadly correct.  However, the details are a lot more
intricate.  You need to consider laminar flow (among other things),
meaning that the fluid (liquid and gas) flow nearest the transfer
wall moves slower than the fluid in the centre of the vapour or
liquid medium, due to friction.  Therefore the transfer of heat
becomes other than linear.  There are equations for working this
out, but once again, you need to consult a chemical engineer to get
the figures.  I have the equations, but it's outside my field of
expertise.  Perhaps Mike Nixon or Tony Ackland can help.

Aside from that, the condenser would need to have turbulence
introduced into the vapour, via baffles, as this increases the
contact and changes the angle of attack between the vapour, the heat
transfer medium (the tube walls) and the coolant.

One thing in the favour of the hobbyist is that the designs we build
are extremely small in the broad scheme of things, therefore if we
make a small error in calculations, it's not critical (usually).  A
small increase in coolant flow will usually overcome most design
errors.

Slainte!
regards Harry

--- In Distillers@yahoogroups.com, "Peggy" <rpk@g...> wrote:
> Contact the Feds for a permit.  Contact your state/ local people
for
> unique registrations that apply solely to your area.  Thank you
ANYONE
> that has information about state/ local requirements from your
> area--including fire codes, or other applicable rules.  I'm
keeping a
> reference list and would appreciate knowing more.  You can find
> information about state benefits such as tax rebates on the
Internet...
> but that is not what is implied.
>
> Thanks for letting us all know if there are further applications or
> rules.  To return our country's strength, we need to return the
power to
> the people... and this includes energy and food production
practices.
> Hopefully the hubs (cities) will begin to take on producing more
of our
> consumer goods so our products are not all made in China.  What
basic
> skills are we teaching our children?  Can they cook or work with
hobbies
> that produce a serviceable item or is it only how to operate a
Game Boy
> and remote control.  Well, maybe we can pass on the ability to
make our
> own fuel and build with materials that are not energy consumptive.
>
> Best wishes,
> Peggy


Wanna borrow my soapbox, Peg?   :-)
Seriously, I hear what you're saying.  I still say pushbikes are
gonna become very popular in a decade or so (you figure it out).  ;-)

Slainte!
regards Harry

Hi Harry
         Great job
Just a couple of questions.
How dose the liquid cross the dam wall to the other side, would it not
build up on the other side. And possibly fall back down the column?
Would a large amount of condensate fall back down the column from the
tubes above the column?

I will have a go at building a Howard F Jackson crossflow condenser
head when I get time.

Thanks Harry fantastic setup.

Stevo

I know the Q was to Harry, but I will interject a little here.


Just because I have built one of Harry devices and use it regularly.

I guess I, like ya'll, am accumulating a shelf full of items that I no
longer use.  That condensor over there is the previous model. "Does it
work"?  Yep, it works but this one works better.

The crossflow is a good item.  small, compact, efficient, low cooling
water usage.

Stevo, the insert that slides up inside the "T" needs to be sqeezed
down to create a 'neck'.  the condensate actually flows around the
necked insert to reach the outlet port.

to limit takeoff just throttle the outlet valve. the product will
accumulate and overflow the 'dam' back into the column.

I did have some difficulty stopping the leaks around the diaphram that
separates the cooling water from the vapor chamber.  I actually brazed
the copper tubes to the diaphram plate.

silver soldered the plate to the housing and soft soldered the caps
onto the tee.

this keeps from melting your previous work.

cary r







--- In Distillers@yahoogroups.com, "stevolate" <stevolate@y...> wrote:
> Hi Harry
>         Great job
> Just a couple of questions.
> How dose the liquid cross the dam wall to the other side, would it not
> build up on the other side. And possibly fall back down the column?
> Would a large amount of condensate fall back down the column from the
> tubes above the column?
>
> I will have a go at building a Howard F Jackson crossflow condenser
> head when I get time.
>
> Thanks Harry fantastic setup.
>
> Stevo

Hi Harry, Riku, etc.

Refrigeration heat transfer coils (condenser and evaporator) use Rifle
bore tubing  the idea is that as the refrigerant passes through the
rifle boring inside the tube not only is turbulence created but in the
case of liquid/vapour phase change the liquid is thrown to the outside
(against the walls) giving better heat transfer.

Although our (Distillers) rate of flow isn't as fast as that inside a
refrigerant system maybe this type of tubing would be of benefit when
designing your next condenser.

Dean.


>Your theory is broadly correct.  However, the details are a lot more
>intricate.  You need to consider laminar flow (among other things),
>meaning that the fluid (liquid and gas) flow nearest the transfer
>wall moves slower than the fluid in the centre of the vapour or
>liquid medium, due to friction.  Therefore the transfer of heat
>becomes other than linear.  There are equations for working this
>out, but once again, you need to consult a chemical engineer to get
>the figures.  I have the equations, but it's outside my field of
>expertise.  Perhaps Mike Nixon or Tony Ackland can help.
>
>Aside from that, the condenser would need to have turbulence
>introduced into the vapour, via baffles, as this increases the
>contact and changes the angle of attack between the vapour, the heat
>transfer medium (the tube walls) and the coolant.
>
>One thing in the favour of the hobbyist is that the designs we build
>are extremely small in the broad scheme of things, therefore if we
>make a small error in calculations, it's not critical (usually).  A
>small increase in coolant flow will usually overcome most design
>errors.
>
>Slainte!
>regards Harry
>
>
>
>
>
> Distillers list archives : http://archive.nnytech.net/
> FAQ and other information at http://homedistiller.org
>Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>

I have been lurking and watching the discussion on condensers.... I
have come up with an example that I am in the process of building....
  I have uploaded a diagram in the photos section in the album "condenser"

I call it the "crossflow inverted liebig condenser"

I have tried to make a crossflow condenser with construction and
materials that might not be as intimidating to the home distiller
using common tools.

I am not sure how long to make it.... I am guessing 18 to 20 inches
will give the proper amount of internal surface area..... and the
necessary cooling capacity with a large pump and water flow....


comments please

Kim

That's exactly what I was talking about. I'd try 1" pipe inside to
give vapors more room to turn around and cool. Also it would be
easier to use reducers to 1/2" at the end of the 1" pipe and attach
hoses directly to those. This means that everything can be put
together using standard easy to solder plumbing components.

You can use condenser size calculator at homedistiller.org to
estimate the length of the condenser + required waterflow. I did some
math and this type of setup will work at least up to 2kW if enough
waterflow is provided.

- Riku

--- In Distillers@yahoogroups.com, "Kim" <kiss_my_ass@c...> wrote:
> I have been lurking and watching the discussion on condensers.... I
> have come up with an example that I am in the process of
building....
>  I have uploaded a diagram in the photos section in the
album "condenser"
>
> I call it the "crossflow inverted liebig condenser"
>
> I have tried to make a crossflow condenser with construction and
> materials that might not be as intimidating to the home distiller
> using common tools.
>
> I am not sure how long to make it.... I am guessing 18 to 20 inches
> will give the proper amount of internal surface area..... and the
> necessary cooling capacity with a large pump and water flow....
>
>
> comments please
>
> Kim

--- In Distillers@yahoogroups.com, "popwahtosh" <popwahtosh@y...>
wrote:
> --- In Distillers@yahoogroups.com, "don1lia2joe3"
> <donaldfranson@h...> wrote:
> >
> > I have legal Federal and State permits
> >
> > I pay no taxes because the permits are for fuel alcohol (they do
> not
> > know what you will use it for, as far as they are concerned it
is
> > for fuel).
> >
> > I have to keep some kind of records to send in every year ($.37)
> and
> > I pay the State $25 year for their alcohol permit which is like
a
> > tax but it keeps the law inforcement authorities from taking my
> > alcohol in case someone (like a mad neighbor) turns me in for
> > running a still.
> >
> > I have never been inspected or visited by either Federal or
local
> > authorities.
> =======================
>
> What state are you in. California doesn't charge me anything
> =====================================
>

I live in Oklahoma Pop, Still a little backwoods here but the ground
doesn't shake!

--- In Distillers@yahoogroups.com, "californiashiner"
<califshiner@t...> wrote:
> Who do I contact to get fuel permits - State & Fed.?
> Great Solution!

The federal permit comes from the TTB (Dept of Treasury, Alcohol and
Tobacco Tax and Trade Bureau) You can find the forms on the web. just
do a search for Application for an alcohol fuel producer permit.  It
is form # TTBF 5110.74

I am not sure where to ask in Calif. but in Okla. the Fuel Alcohol
Registration comes from the Agriculture Dept.

Have fun

--- In Distillers@yahoogroups.com, "californiashiner"
<califshiner@t...> wrote:
> Who do I contact to get fuel permits - State & Fed.?
> Great Solution!

========================

If applying for a US fed. alco. fuel permit, go to....

TTB regulations at

http://ecfr.gpoaccess.gov

In the browse box, select "title 27"
Where it says "browse parts" click on the numbers
"1-199"
Scroll down to "19" (Distilled spirits plant)and click on
where it
says "numbers 19.1 to 19.1010"  You are only interested  in
"subpart
Y" (Distilled spirits for fuel)

If you just want to produce fuel for personal use, and to be used on
your own property,  you aren't subject to  bonds, taxes, and
denaturing your product unless it is removed from the premises.

If this is what you want, then you will need to choose the "small
plant" ( less than 10,000 proof-gallons per year)A proof-gallon
is a
US gallon times proof divided by 100



For an on line permit application – click on the link below

http://www.ttb.gov/forms/pdfs/f510074.pdf        or copy and paste
into your browser box.


There is no charge for the permit and no State permit required in
California.At least that's what I was told by State employees




National Revenue Center
550 Main Street Suite 8002
Cincinnati, Ohio 45202
Tax and Trade Bureau Toll Free 1-877-TTB-FAQS (1-877-882-3277)
(513)-684-3334


Good luck,

Pop

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Management Team

Riku

point well taken on 1 in pipe and standard fittings..... it certainly would
be a no machine work or drilling construction using standard parts....

I do think that the 1 1/2 in pipe will close down the volumn but it will be
much more surface area and the vapor will be forced closer to the condensing
surface.....I have a big pump for high coolant volume... and already have
the 2 in to 1 1/2 reducers....I can scrounge all the parts from other "not
so good experiments" I have on hand.....

I use propane for heat so I have no idea of the actual power output but I
turn the flame down considerably after reaching distilling temperature.....
I think it is probably 2kw or less....{just guessing}



Kim


----- Original Message -----
From: "abbababbaccc" <abbababbaccc@...>
To: <Distillers@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Wednesday, June 01, 2005 10:07 AM
Subject: [Distillers] Re: condenser

> That's exactly what I was talking about. I'd try 1" pipe inside to
> give vapors more room to turn around and cool. Also it would be
> easier to use reducers to 1/2" at the end of the 1" pipe and attach
> hoses directly to those. This means that everything can be put
> together using standard easy to solder plumbing components.
>
> You can use condenser size calculator at homedistiller.org to
> estimate the length of the condenser + required waterflow. I did some
> math and this type of setup will work at least up to 2kW if enough
> waterflow is provided.
>
> - Riku
>
> --- In Distillers@yahoogroups.com, "Kim" <kiss_my_ass@c...> wrote:
>> I have been lurking and watching the discussion on condensers.... I
>> have come up with an example that I am in the process of
> building....
>>  I have uploaded a diagram in the photos section in the
> album "condenser"
>>
>> I call it the "crossflow inverted liebig condenser"
>>
>> I have tried to make a crossflow condenser with construction and
>> materials that might not be as intimidating to the home distiller
>> using common tools.
>>
>> I am not sure how long to make it.... I am guessing 18 to 20 inches
>> will give the proper amount of internal surface area..... and the
>> necessary cooling capacity with a large pump and water flow....
>>
>>
>> comments please
>>
>> Kim
>
>
>
>
>
> Distillers list archives : http://archive.nnytech.net/
> FAQ and other information at http://homedistiller.org
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>
>
>

Kim,

Yes, 1.5" pipe will have more area and cooling effect. Since you have
all the stuff why don't you just build one and see how it works. If
1.5" is too much you can just get reducer couplings for 1" that go
inside the 1.5" couplings and try with 1" pipe. Theory is nice but
it's all up to trying things in practise.

Since you use propane it could actually be beneficial to build your
condenser for 1-1.2kW for 2" pipe which is close to perfect power for
that pipe size. That would provide you a method of running at proper
power. If steam is pouring out of your ventilation hole it's a good
sign to turn down the power. You can see it quite well by looking
against a light. I've tried that method with my air cooled condensers
and power regulator and it seems to work OK.

- Riku

--- In Distillers@yahoogroups.com, "kiss my ass" <kiss_my_ass@c...>
wrote:
> Riku
>
> point well taken on 1 in pipe and standard fittings..... it
certainly would
> be a no machine work or drilling construction using standard
parts....
>
> I do think that the 1 1/2 in pipe will close down the volumn but it
will be
> much more surface area and the vapor will be forced closer to the
condensing
> surface.....I have a big pump for high coolant volume... and
already have
> the 2 in to 1 1/2 reducers....I can scrounge all the parts from
other "not
> so good experiments" I have on hand.....
>
> I use propane for heat so I have no idea of the actual power output
but I
> turn the flame down considerably after reaching distilling
temperature.....
> I think it is probably 2kw or less....{just guessing}
>
>
>
> Kim
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "abbababbaccc" <abbababbaccc@y...>
> To: <Distillers@yahoogroups.com>
> Sent: Wednesday, June 01, 2005 10:07 AM
> Subject: [Distillers] Re: condenser
>
> > That's exactly what I was talking about. I'd try 1" pipe inside to
> > give vapors more room to turn around and cool. Also it would be
> > easier to use reducers to 1/2" at the end of the 1" pipe and
attach
> > hoses directly to those. This means that everything can be put
> > together using standard easy to solder plumbing components.
> >
> > You can use condenser size calculator at homedistiller.org to
> > estimate the length of the condenser + required waterflow. I did
some
> > math and this type of setup will work at least up to 2kW if enough
> > waterflow is provided.
> >
> > - Riku
> >
> > --- In Distillers@yahoogroups.com, "Kim" <kiss_my_ass@c...> wrote:
> >> I have been lurking and watching the discussion on
condensers.... I
> >> have come up with an example that I am in the process of
> > building....
> >>  I have uploaded a diagram in the photos section in the
> > album "condenser"
> >>
> >> I call it the "crossflow inverted liebig condenser"
> >>
> >> I have tried to make a crossflow condenser with construction and
> >> materials that might not be as intimidating to the home distiller
> >> using common tools.
> >>
> >> I am not sure how long to make it.... I am guessing 18 to 20
inches
> >> will give the proper amount of internal surface area..... and the
> >> necessary cooling capacity with a large pump and water flow....
> >>
> >>
> >> comments please
> >>
> >> Kim
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > Distillers list archives : http://archive.nnytech.net/
> > FAQ and other information at http://homedistiller.org
> > Yahoo! Groups Links
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >

--- In Distillers@yahoogroups.com, "abbababbaccc"
<abbababbaccc@y...> wrote:
<snip>
  If steam is pouring out of your ventilation hole it's a good
> sign to turn down the power. You can see it quite well by looking
> against a light. I've tried that method with my air cooled
condensers
> and power regulator and it seems to work OK.
>
> - Riku



A child's balloon placed over the vent tube is a good indicator.  It
springs up the moment excess vapour comes out the vent.  Also
prevents getting a room full of ethanol that might go BANG around
propane.  Of course you will get some balloon spring as you reach
distilling temperature.  That's the air being purged from the system
by the rising vapours.  All good column designs should have no air
in them during operation, just ethanol & water vapour.  This
eliminates the potential for flash fires & explosions. If a spark is
generated somehow by add-on equipment, and finds ethanol and AIR
mixture, you've got serious problems, RAPIDLY.


Slainte!
regards Harry

A package of three S/S pot scrubbers costs about Cdn $2.00 and is just
the right amount to pack a 1 1/2" column over a length of 30". What in
God's name is so expensive about this?

--- In Distillers@yahoogroups.com, "californiashiner"
<califshiner@t...> wrote:
> Had a pest exterminating company seal my home, Old adobe brick.  The
> material they used to plug the holes is the stuff that's needed for the
> reflux column.  Should be a lot cheaper than buying "pot scrubbers".
> 5" x 100 feet of copper mesh is $40 (USD) plus shipping. Contact
> through www.flybye.com or US 800 820 1980.  Ted

You are right again Harry. I've played too much with electric stuff
and forgotten the realities of open flame. A more "civilized" way
could be to use a long ventilation pipe made of copper that has a
vaporlock in it. If it starts bubling you need to reduce the power
quickly. Play it safe.

- Riku

--- In Distillers@yahoogroups.com, "Harry" <gnikomson2000@y...> wrote:
> --- In Distillers@yahoogroups.com, "abbababbaccc"
> <abbababbaccc@y...> wrote:
> <snip>
>  If steam is pouring out of your ventilation hole it's a good
> > sign to turn down the power. You can see it quite well by looking
> > against a light. I've tried that method with my air cooled
> condensers
> > and power regulator and it seems to work OK.
> >
> > - Riku
>
>
>
> A child's balloon placed over the vent tube is a good indicator.
It
> springs up the moment excess vapour comes out the vent.  Also
> prevents getting a room full of ethanol that might go BANG around
> propane.  Of course you will get some balloon spring as you reach
> distilling temperature.  That's the air being purged from the
system
> by the rising vapours.  All good column designs should have no air
> in them during operation, just ethanol & water vapour.  This
> eliminates the potential for flash fires & explosions. If a spark
is
> generated somehow by add-on equipment, and finds ethanol and AIR
> mixture, you've got serious problems, RAPIDLY.
>
>
> Slainte!
> regards Harry

Riku

Your are right ..... I will try it and see..... all the theory in the world
won't replace actual hard testing..... of course theory will get you in the
ball park....

if it doesn't work.... well I'll switch to the 1 in pipe.....

Kim


----- Original Message -----
From: "abbababbaccc" <abbababbaccc@...>
To: <Distillers@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Wednesday, June 01, 2005 3:29 PM
Subject: [Distillers] Re: condenser


> Kim,
>
> Yes, 1.5" pipe will have more area and cooling effect. Since you have
> all the stuff why don't you just build one and see how it works. If
> 1.5" is too much you can just get reducer couplings for 1" that go
> inside the 1.5" couplings and try with 1" pipe. Theory is nice but
> it's all up to trying things in practise.
>
> Since you use propane it could actually be beneficial to build your
> condenser for 1-1.2kW for 2" pipe which is close to perfect power for
> that pipe size. That would provide you a method of running at proper
> power. If steam is pouring out of your ventilation hole it's a good
> sign to turn down the power. You can see it quite well by looking
> against a light. I've tried that method with my air cooled condensers
> and power regulator and it seems to work OK.
>
> - Riku
>
> --- In Distillers@yahoogroups.com, "kiss my ass" <kiss_my_ass@c...>
> wrote:
>> Riku
>>
>> point well taken on 1 in pipe and standard fittings..... it
> certainly would
>> be a no machine work or drilling construction using standard
> parts....
>>
>> I do think that the 1 1/2 in pipe will close down the volumn but it
> will be
>> much more surface area and the vapor will be forced closer to the
> condensing
>> surface.....I have a big pump for high coolant volume... and
> already have
>> the 2 in to 1 1/2 reducers....I can scrounge all the parts from
> other "not
>> so good experiments" I have on hand.....
>>
>> I use propane for heat so I have no idea of the actual power output
> but I
>> turn the flame down considerably after reaching distilling
> temperature.....
>> I think it is probably 2kw or less....{just guessing}
>>
>>
>>
>> Kim
>>
>>
>> ----- Original Message -----
>> From: "abbababbaccc" <abbababbaccc@y...>
>> To: <Distillers@yahoogroups.com>
>> Sent: Wednesday, June 01, 2005 10:07 AM
>> Subject: [Distillers] Re: condenser
>>
>> > That's exactly what I was talking about. I'd try 1" pipe inside to
>> > give vapors more room to turn around and cool. Also it would be
>> > easier to use reducers to 1/2" at the end of the 1" pipe and
> attach
>> > hoses directly to those. This means that everything can be put
>> > together using standard easy to solder plumbing components.
>> >
>> > You can use condenser size calculator at homedistiller.org to
>> > estimate the length of the condenser + required waterflow. I did
> some
>> > math and this type of setup will work at least up to 2kW if enough
>> > waterflow is provided.
>> >
>> > - Riku
>> >
>> > --- In Distillers@yahoogroups.com, "Kim" <kiss_my_ass@c...> wrote:
>> >> I have been lurking and watching the discussion on
> condensers.... I
>> >> have come up with an example that I am in the process of
>> > building....
>> >>  I have uploaded a diagram in the photos section in the
>> > album "condenser"
>> >>
>> >> I call it the "crossflow inverted liebig condenser"
>> >>
>> >> I have tried to make a crossflow condenser with construction and
>> >> materials that might not be as intimidating to the home distiller
>> >> using common tools.
>> >>
>> >> I am not sure how long to make it.... I am guessing 18 to 20
> inches
>> >> will give the proper amount of internal surface area..... and the
>> >> necessary cooling capacity with a large pump and water flow....
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> comments please
>> >>
>> >> Kim
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> > Distillers list archives : http://archive.nnytech.net/
>> > FAQ and other information at http://homedistiller.org
>> > Yahoo! Groups Links
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Distillers list archives : http://archive.nnytech.net/
> FAQ and other information at http://homedistiller.org
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>
>
>

--- In Distillers@yahoogroups.com, "kiss my ass" <kiss_my_ass@c...>
wrote:
> Riku
>
> Your are right ..... I will try it and see..... all the theory in
the world
> won't replace actual hard testing..... of course theory will get
you in the
> ball park....
>
> if it doesn't work.... well I'll switch to the 1 in pipe.....
>
> Kim



It's an interesting concept, Kim.  Let us know the results.  As to
working out the size, just calculate the hot/cold transfer area.
IOW the outer surface area of the inside water pipe.

The crossflow has 19 pipes @ 140mm x 6.5mm Ø which is (in cm)...

Diameter x Pi x length x num.pipes
.65 x 3.14159 x 14 x 19 --> 543 sq.cm


This easily handles 1800w under test, and I'm sure it could do more
if the need arises.  It's just a matter of increasing the coolant
flow.  So to get something in that known range using a single
central pipe, just work backwards with the equation and plug in
figures...

543 = Diam x Pi x Length
543 = 3.8 x 3.14159 x ?
543 / (3.8 x 3.14159) --> 45.5 cm length @ 3.8 cm diameter
or 18" x 1.5" pipe
For 1.25" pipe it's...
543 / (3.2 x 3.14159) --> 54 cm length @ 3.2 cm diameter
or 21.25" x 1.25" pipe

You will also get a very small amount of cooling from the shell side
to atmosphere transfer, but in condensers this small it's not worth
calculating.


Slainte!
regards Harry

Hate to bring bad news, but I'm guessing the conduction of heat
through the steel will not be your limiting factor, and your 120kW
sounds about right.

It will more likely be the convection of the water bath and the wash
inside the boiler, more so the water bath once it is boiling, that
will limit heat transfer.

Agitation of both will provide better heat transfer. Trying to
calculate heat transfer for such a system would be a nightmare.

I'd say your best bet is an experiment, unless you're a hardcore nerd
that wants to create a computer model, or a hardcore physicist/maths
guru who has way too much spare time =). Let us know how you get on.

knarl.

--- In Distillers@yahoogroups.com, Andrew Forsberg <andrew@u...>
wrote:
> Hi all,
>
> The internet has provided me with far too many conflicting rates and
> formulae for calculating whether an external water bath for a
stainless
> steel boiler will or will not provide sufficient heat.
>
> I'd very much appreciate it if an engineer on the list would give
this a
> once over:
>
> T1 = 105 degC (water + table salt jacket)
> T2 = 78 degC (mash)
> Heat transfer coefficient = no idea... Ignoring it for the moment.
> K = approx 14 W(m2 . K) (I have seen more figures for SS than I
care to
> poke sticks at. This is the most conservative, and is for 270K, so
> anything better would be super).
> Q = Watts
> A = Area = .64m2
> D = thickness of the SS wall = approx 2 mms
>
> Q/A = (T1 - T2) / (D . 1/K)
>
> Q/A = (27) / (.002  / 14)
>     = 27 . 7000
>     = 189,000
>
> Q = 189,000 . 0.64
>   = 120.96 kW
>
> So, what I'd like to know is -- will a 2mm stainless steel wall for
an
> area of .64m2 allow heat to pass through at a rate of up 120kW for
that
> temperature differential? Even approximately? As long as it's higher
> than 3 or 4kW I'm happy. Unfortunately some formulae I've found
> suggested the figure would be closer to 800W...
>
> Cheers and thanks,
> Andrew