Hi Harry,

     Can you explain why the master distillers from 150 to 250 years ago in Scotland and Ireland could make such good whiskeys without access to the highly refined sugar like we have today?

     Seems to me to get any appreciable amount of usable sugars for a wash from grain they must have used a hell've' lot of malted grain and water and when fermented out, it couldn't have been much stronger in % Abv than a good pint of Heavy.  Would this be correct? 

     Oh yeah for those that don't know what a pint of Heavy is, this a full bodied or heavy malt flavoured stout served in Scotland's working class pubs and an easily acquired taste it was a good substitute to Guinness also an easily acquired taste when I lived in Scotand for a while, these stouts can be a tad strong for nearly all non Gaelic races who weren't reared on them.

     Anyway to get a reasonable amount of good whiskey doing double and triple distilling through those huge pot stills they must have been dealing with huge low alcohol washes and the work and materials, turf and wood in the early years and coal or or gas in the later years time spent in the barrel and whatever was involved to do this must have been very expensive

     I suppose this outlay needed clawing back hence the hefty price tag on some of the better whiskeys of old?

     Where these huge volumes of low alcohol washes', when distilled, the reason why they tasted so good?

Geoff      

Where can you find a 150 year old bottle of whisky to see if you are
right?
wal
--- In Distillers@yahoogroups.com, "burrows206" <jeffrey.burrows@...>
wrote:
>
>
> Hi Harry,
>
>       Can you explain why the master distillers from 150 to 250
years ago
> in Scotland and Ireland could make such good whiskeys without access to
> the highly refined sugar like we have today?
>
>       Seems to me to get any appreciable amount of usable sugars for a
> wash from grain they must have used a hell've' lot of malted
> grain and water and when fermented out, it couldn't have been much
> stronger in % Abv than a good pint of Heavy.  Would this be correct?
>
>       Oh yeah for those that don't know what a pint of Heavy is, this
> a full bodied or heavy malt flavoured stout served in Scotland's
> working class pubs and an easily acquired taste it was a good substitute
> to Guinness also an easily acquired taste when I lived in Scotand for a
> while, these stouts can be a tad strong for nearly all non Gaelic races
> who weren't reared on them.
>
>       Anyway to get a reasonable amount of good whiskey doing double and
> triple distilling through those huge pot stills they must have been
> dealing with huge low alcohol washes and the work and materials, turf
> and wood in the early years and coal or or gas in the later years time
> spent in the barrel and whatever was involved to do this must have been
> very expensive
>
>       I suppose this outlay needed clawing back hence the hefty
price tag
> on some of the better whiskeys of old?
>
>       Where these huge volumes of low alcohol washes', when
> distilled, the reason why they tasted so good?
>
> Geoff
>

--- In Distillers@yahoogroups.com, "waljaco" <waljaco@...> wrote:
>
> Where can you find a 150 year old bottle of whisky to see if you are
> right?
> wal

Here you go wal. 
 Don't know if you can buy this out right, But if you have enough dough I am sure you probably could,  They do have tasting everyone in a while it looks like the site says,  The Whiskey is Middelton Rare,  Says its distilled from a 150Year old mash, Which I didn't understand, Hope they meant that either its a 150 year old tradition, Or they did it then and been aging every since. :) 
 Here is the site,  Yahoo turned up more,   But I am not a Whiskey/whisky person, I was just trying to do the search after seeing your post..
  Good luck on the hunt, Let us know how it taste if you ever get a hold of any..
http://www.thorntonsirishpub.com/2527.html?*session*id*key*=*session*id*val*

Here  was a copy of the search I did, Looks like there was about 12 pages of stuff returned, Granted not all of it was 150 year old Whiskey's..

http://search.yahoo.com/search?p=150+year+old+whiskey&fr=yfp-t-501&toggle=1&cop=mss&ei=UTF-8

NoName (NameLess)

 "Whisky/whiskey Invey"

Hi Waljaco,
      You would be lucky to find whiskey when I grew up older than
150 days let alone 150 years, that 150 day old stuff would be you're
finely tuned (clear of all colour) 150 day old matured (in glass)
Lagan side single malt whiskey, classified as single malt only if you
have one single shot in the glass.
Seriously though I do get your point how would you compare them?  The
older generations tend to say of kids today
      "Ya don't know you're born, your pocket money would have feed a
family for a week in my day"
"We were poor but we were happy"
  Well we were poor and let me tell you poor in Ireland poor meant
bloody poor and we weren't so bloody happy either.  Why do you think
so many Paddy's and Jock's left there homeland and are now
scattered all over
the world in every walk of life? (your Scotish family ancestors are a
prime example Harry and me as well in France). A little bit of
whiskey to drown out your
hardships then and now was/is  a welcome break and was something that
the working man could look forward to.  Then the b**t**ds tried to
take that little enjoyment away from or ancestors with the excise
man.
      We can't have the bally blighters enjoying themselves they're
not supposed to.  What ho! can't have that, let's jolly well tax the
bally life out of the plebians?
      Gosh before we know it.  They'll want to bally well vote and own
horses and property next can't have that.
      Right my rant at the injustices in the world and class system,
in my ancestors time then and now is over.  Gosh I bally well do feel
better now.
Geoff

--- In Distillers@yahoogroups.com, "waljaco" <waljaco@...> wrote:
>
> Where can you find a 150 year old bottle of whisky to see if you are
> right?
> wal
> --- In Distillers@yahoogroups.com, "burrows206" <jeffrey.burrows@>
> wrote:
> >
> >
> > Hi Harry,
> >
> >       Can you explain why the master distillers from 150 to 250
> years ago
> > in Scotland and Ireland could make such good whiskeys without
access to
> > the highly refined sugar like we have today?
> >
> >       Seems to me to get any appreciable amount of usable sugars
for a
> > wash from grain they must have used a hell've' lot of malted
> > grain and water and when fermented out, it couldn't have been much
> > stronger in % Abv than a good pint of Heavy.  Would this be
correct?
> >
> >       Oh yeah for those that don't know what a pint of Heavy is,
this
> > a full bodied or heavy malt flavoured stout served in Scotland's
> > working class pubs and an easily acquired taste it was a good
substitute
> > to Guinness also an easily acquired taste when I lived in Scotand
for a
> > while, these stouts can be a tad strong for nearly all non Gaelic
races
> > who weren't reared on them.
> >
> >       Anyway to get a reasonable amount of good whiskey doing
double and
> > triple distilling through those huge pot stills they must have
been
> > dealing with huge low alcohol washes and the work and materials,
turf
> > and wood in the early years and coal or or gas in the later years
time
> > spent in the barrel and whatever was involved to do this must
have been
> > very expensive
> >
> >       I suppose this outlay needed clawing back hence the hefty
> price tag
> > on some of the better whiskeys of old?
> >
> >       Where these huge volumes of low alcohol washes', when
> > distilled, the reason why they tasted so good?
> >
> > Geoff
> >
>

Hey Riku,

By American Law, Sour mash Bourbon or Whisk(e)ys must contain at least 25% backset from a previous distillation to be called Sour Mash:

"Often associated with bourbon, the sour mash method is simply a technique of fermentation that uses part (at least 25 percent) of the spent mash from a previous distillation in the new batch of fermenting mash. A sour mash must ferment for between 72 and 96 hours. One of the advantages of the sour mash methods is that it provides a dimension of consistency from one batch of whiskey to another. The sweet mash yeasting method, on the other hand, uses only fresh yeast for fermentation. "  http://www.spiritsunlimited.com/archives_whiskey_fa98.php

What you have to be careful with is making the new sour mash fermentation too low in pH which may cause a stuck fermentation.  If you figure Bourbon makers shoot for about 5.5 pH to start with,  and during fermentation, this could be reduced by as much as 1 point or more (10 fold) then too much sour mash may cause problem.

From what Ive read, usually about 25% to 45% works fine.  I use about a 35% to 40% for mine (not that this means anything ).

Vino es Veritas,

Jim aka Waldo.

--- In Distillers@yahoogroups.com, "abbababbaccc" <abbababbaccc@...> wrote:
>
> I did some more reading and noticed and interesting thing. UJSM uses 25-
> 50% backset while the rest is filled with water. Ian Smiley uses all
> the backset in his recipe which is about 66-75%. How much are you guys
> using?
>
> Found a potential source for rolled corn horsefeed after lots
> searching. I might do the corn thing after all to start this thing. The
> price is the same as for rolled barley for human consumption :(
>
> Cheers, Riku
>

> --- In Distillers@yahoogroups.com, "abbababbaccc" <abbababbaccc@>
> wrote:
> >
> > I did some more reading and noticed and interesting thing. UJSM uses
> 25-
> > 50% backset while the rest is filled with water. Ian Smiley uses all
> > the backset in his recipe which is about 66-75%. How much are you guys
> > using?

> > Cheers, Riku
> >
>

Hey Riku,
I am using 2 gallons of backset. That leaves about a gallon in the
boiler to trash.  The 2 gallons plus 2 gallons of fresh water brings
the volume in the boiler to the same level every time.  The Trub/grain
sludge probably takes up 2gals of space also.  so depending on how you
look at it.  I am adding a 50/50 mix back to the fermenter or 1/3
backset for total volume.
In that section of Ians book he writes about the fermentation times
getting longer with each iteration and I believe draws the conclusion
that this is because the Backset lowers the PH to a point that it
slows the yeast.  Again the Method I am using is keeping ferment times
very consistent at around 72 hours.  I am not checking PH on these but
I will when I do the final wash.

Mason

I'll have to see how much mash and backset I end up with. About one
third sounds good to me. Cornfeed had to be ordered (which I did as I
do like bourbon) so I ended up raiding the supermarket for some
grains. The mashbill became:

3kg precooked barley
0.6 kg rolled rye
3.6 kg sugar
Filled it up to 30 liters and pitched two packages of bakers yeast.
This is mimicking the UJSM recipe with a scotch tune.

I found an electric blanket that's wrapped around the mash tun so
temperature shouldn't be an issue anymore. We'll see how it turns
out. I expect little to no foaming during distilation as all the
grains are gelatinized. When I did wheat flour mash with cooking
method the foaming was nonexistant - I was able to strip at 3kW. I
hope this to be the same.

Slainte, Riku

--- In Distillers@yahoogroups.com, "rye_junkie1" <rye_junkie@...>
wrote:
>
>
>
> Hey Riku,
> I am using 2 gallons of backset. That leaves about a gallon in the
> boiler to trash.  The 2 gallons plus 2 gallons of fresh water brings
> the volume in the boiler to the same level every time.  The
Trub/grain
> sludge probably takes up 2gals of space also.  so depending on how
you
> look at it.  I am adding a 50/50 mix back to the fermenter or 1/3
> backset for total volume.
> In that section of Ians book he writes about the fermentation times
> getting longer with each iteration and I believe draws the
conclusion
> that this is because the Backset lowers the PH to a point that it
> slows the yeast.  Again the Method I am using is keeping ferment
times
> very consistent at around 72 hours.  I am not checking PH on these
but
> I will when I do the final wash.
>
> Mason
>

Hi Bob,
       Yes it does help.  You've gave me the answers I sorta already
knew but was too butt lazy to do the spade work and figure out for
myself.
      So what you're really saying is to get a good whiskey (in
Ireland and uk we spell it whisky but I was trying to cover all bases
with whiskey) it involves a lot of raw ingredients and hard work for
any able bodied person.  I think if I make whisky I will get a
willing helper even if he is French and get him to do the grunt work
(me in a wheelchair and with one functioning hand makes it hard to do
the grunt work) Lucky I like vodka
and whatever occasional bottle of whisky comes my way. (well any
reasonable tasting alcohol really if the truth be known)
Thanks for your comments.
Geoff

--- In Distillers@yahoogroups.com, Robert Hubble <zymurgybob@...>
wrote:
>
>
> Hi Geoff,
>
> My reply is inline.
>
> Zymurgy Bob, a simple potstiller
>
>
>
> To: Distillers@yahoogroups.com
> From: jeffrey.burrows@...
> Date: Thu, 29 Jan 2009 09:52:04 +0000
> Subject: [Distillers] Whiskey making
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>             Hi Harry,
>      Can you explain why the master distillers from 150 to 250
years ago in Scotland and Ireland could make such good whiskeys
without access to the highly refined sugar like we have today?While
I'm sure no master distiller, some days I *feel* like 250, and until
this last continuous sourmash experiment, I've used no refined sugar
in *my* whisk(e)ys, and I think my whisk(e)ys are good.
>
>      Seems to me to get any appreciable amount of usable sugars for
a wash from grain they must have used a hell've' lot of malted grain
and water and when fermented out, it couldn't have been much stronger
in % Abv than a good pint of Heavy.  Would this be correct?
> It's correct for *my* washes. It's axiomatic that the higher the
ABV of the wash, the worse it tastes (loosely translated) and yes it
*does* take a helluva a lot of grain, and work too. After starting to
distill grain whisk(e)ys, I've never understood how whisk(e)y could
be sold so cheaply.
>
>      Oh yeah for those that don't know what a pint of Heavy is,
this a full bodied or heavy malt flavoured stout served in Scotland's
working class pubs and an easily acquired taste it was a good
substitute to Guinness also an easily acquired taste when I lived in
Scotand for a while, these stouts can be a tad strong for nearly all
non Gaelic races who weren't reared on them.As an allgrain
homebrewer, one of the family favorites is a Foreign Extra Stout from
a recipe in Brew Your Own magazine. For a woman who didn't used to
like beer, my wife took to that like a kitten to cream. Me too, for
that matter.
>
>      Anyway to get a reasonable amount of good whiskey doing double
and triple distilling through those huge pot stills they must have
been dealing with huge low alcohol washes and the work and materials,
turf and wood in the early years and coal or or gas in the later
years time spent in the barrel and whatever was involved to do this
must have been very expensive
> It is for me, and I'm guessing it was for them.
>
>      I suppose this outlay needed clawing back hence the hefty
price tag on some of the better whiskeys of old?
>      Where these huge volumes of low alcohol washes', when
distilled, the reason why they tasted so good?I think so, and it's
why I prize my own whisk(e)ys and almost never have any left after
aging and tasting. That's why this continuous sourmash bourbon batch
I just did is such a big deal to me. I'll have enough to age, taste,
keep on my shelf, and maybe give a bottle or two to my kids.I hope
this helps put things in perspective.
>
> Geoff
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> _________________________________________________________________
> Windows Live™: E-mail. Chat. Share. Get more ways to connect.
> http://windowslive.com/howitworks?
ocid=TXT_TAGLM_WL_t2_allup_howitworks_012009
>

Hey Jim,

Unless memory has completely left me, we clearly know that apples
and grapes have specific microbial cultures that have evolved
symbiotically with the fruit, and we simplistically call those
cultures "skin yeast". Because of the peculiarly toxic nature of
some rye fungi ergot, we know that some grains can also have unique
flora, so maybe corn does, too. Thinking about that, a rye sourmash
under the right conditions could be deadly.

Apple juice fermented with skin yeast produces a different product
than the same juice fermented with, say, EC1118, so, for better of for
worse, the source of the infecting flora is not immaterial.

I'm not saying that corn flora is necessary for a a good sourmash,
I'm just saying it's a known-vigorous souring culture. Anyone who had
used Pint's sour-starting process will tell you that corn produces a
strong and complex souring; it would be enlightening to try Pint's
process on other grains, but I think I'd avoid doing it with rye.

Zymurgy Bob, a simple potstiller

--- In Distillers@yahoogroups.com, "jamesonbeam1" <jamesonbeam1@...>
wrote:
>
>
> Hey Riku,
>
----snip----
>
> When people start speaking about different grains, microbes specific to
> certain grains and how corn has to be used to have a proper "sour mash",
> it just dont seem to make a hog's head difference or sense to me.
>
> Whether ya use Rye, Oats, Barley, Corn, Millet or whatever, the concept
> of "Sour Mashing" as invented by ol' Dr. Crow (or his side kick Dr.
> Amburgey depending on which Historian you believe),  was invented and
> used for several reasons.
>
----snip----
>
> Maybe I aint thinking as deep as the rest of you all,  but to be safe,
> as Ken Mc. says:
>
> This is my opinion and if Im wrong I am sure I will be corrected  [;)] .
>
> Vino es Veritas,
>
> Jim aka Waldo.
>
>
> --- In Distillers@yahoogroups.com, Robert Hubble <zymurgybob@> wrote:
> >
> >
> > Hi Riku,
> >
> > Just for background, my whisk(e)y experience is mostly sparged
> > malted barley for a single-malt, or sour mashed corn-based, for
> > a bourbon, but I'm not such a traditionalist that experimenting
> > and going in different directions has no appeal.
> >
> > As far as I can tell, the corn sour-mashing depends on a
> > particular microbial population, fungi, bacteria, and God-knows-
> > what, that are cultured in Pint's sour-starting process. I have
> > no idea what microbes live on the other grains you list.
> >
> > What I'd try, if I were you, would be a primarily barley malt
> > based whiskey, but with the mash initially innoculated with
> > a small amount of corn microbes. This would use mostly the
> > least expensive grain, and requiring only traces of the most
> > expensive.
> >
> > While I can't predict with certainty, this should give you a
> > Scotch whisky, with a bit of sour-mash flavor, and a perfect
> > candidate for Harry's essence of peatreak. (I'm coveting
> > about a kilo of Irish peat, for just that purpose)
> >
> > If you absolutely can't get a small amount of "live" corn,
> > contact me offline, and we might arrange something.
> >
> > Zymurgy Bob, a simple potstiller
> >
> >
> >
> > To: Distillers@yahoogroups.com
> > From: abbababbaccc@
> > Date: Wed, 28 Jan 2009 12:14:38 +0000
> > Subject: [Distillers] Sour mash - non corn recipe?
> >
> >
> > Gudday all,
> >
> >
> >
> > Since I have adequate amount of neutral stuff in reserve after my
> >
> > latest experiments, I decided to try something new for me - sour mash.
> >
> > Unfortunately I live in a frozen periferia where corn is a scarce raw
> >
> > material so I need to look at other grains. A quick visit to local
> >
> > supermarket gave me following choices:
> >
> >
> >
> > Rolled oat ~1 eur / kilo
> >
> > Rolled wheat ~1.20/ kilo
> >
> > Rolled barley ~1.20/ kilo
> >
> > Rolled rye ~1.50/ kilo
> >
> > Malted barley ~1 eur/kilo
> >
> >
> >
> > Now I know there are some whiskey experts on the list, the question
> >
> > is - what kind of grainbill would you do from ingredients above? The
> >
> > plan is to do an intermittent 3 cycle sour mash as described by Ian
> >
> > Smiley and I'm looking something a bit more flavorful, perhaps
> >
> > something I could flavor with some "petreek".
> >
> >
> >
> > Cheers, Riku
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > _________________________________________________________________
> > Windows Live™: E-mail. Chat. Share. Get more ways to connect.
> >
> http://windowslive.com/explore?ocid=TXT_TAGLM_WL_t2_allup_explore_012009
> >
>

----- Original Message -----

From: rye_junkie1

To: Distillers@yahoogroups.com

Sent: Thursday, January 29, 2009 9:11 AM

Subject: [Distillers] Re: Sour mash - non corn recipe?

> --- In Distillers@yahoogroups.com, "abbababbaccc" <abbababbaccc@>
> wrote:
> >
> > I did some more reading and noticed and interesting thing. UJSM uses
> 25-
> > 50% backset while the rest is filled with water. Ian Smiley uses all
> > the backset in his recipe which is about 66-75%. How much are you guys
> > using?

> > Cheers, Riku
> >
>

Hey Riku,
I am using 2 gallons of backset. That leaves about a gallon in the
boiler to trash. The 2 gallons plus 2 gallons of fresh water brings
the volume in the boiler to the same level every time. The Trub/grain
sludge probably takes up 2gals of space also. so depending on how you
look at it. I am adding a 50/50 mix back to the fermenter or 1/3
backset for total volume.
In that section of Ians book he writes about the fermentation times
getting longer with each iteration and I believe draws the conclusion
that this is because the Backset lowers the PH to a point that it
slows the yeast. Again the Method I am using is keeping ferment times
very consistent at around 72 hours. I am not checking PH on these but
I will when I do the final wash.

Mason

----- Original Message -----

From: tgfoitwoods

To: Distillers@yahoogroups.com

Sent: Thursday, January 29, 2009 2:50 PM

Subject: [Distillers] Re: Sour mash - non corn recipe?

Hey Jim,

Unless memory has completely left me, we clearly know that apples
and grapes have specific microbial cultures that have evolved
symbiotically with the fruit, and we simplistically call those
cultures "skin yeast". Because of the peculiarly toxic nature of
some rye fungi ergot, we know that some grains can also have unique
flora, so maybe corn does, too. Thinking about that, a rye sourmash
under the right conditions could be deadly.

Apple juice fermented with skin yeast produces a different product
than the same juice fermented with, say, EC1118, so, for better of for
worse, the source of the infecting flora is not immaterial.

I'm not saying that corn flora is necessary for a a good sourmash,
I'm just saying it's a known-vigorous souring culture. Anyone who had
used Pint's sour-starting process will tell you that corn produces a
strong and complex souring; it would be enlightening to try Pint's
process on other grains, but I think I'd avoid doing it with rye.

Zymurgy Bob, a simple potstiller

--- In Distillers@yahoogroups.com, "jamesonbeam1" <jamesonbeam1@...>
wrote:
>
>
> Hey Riku,
>
----snip----
>
> When people start speaking about different grains, microbes specific to
> certain grains and how corn has to be used to have a proper "sour mash",
> it just dont seem to make a hog's head difference or sense to me.
>
> Whether ya use Rye, Oats, Barley, Corn, Millet or whatever, the concept
> of "Sour Mashing" as invented by ol' Dr. Crow (or his side kick Dr.
> Amburgey depending on which Historian you believe), was invented and
> used for several reasons.
>
----snip----
>
> Maybe I aint thinking as deep as the rest of you all, but to be safe,
> as Ken Mc. says:
>
> This is my opinion and if Im wrong I am sure I will be corrected [;)] .
>
> Vino es Veritas,
>
> Jim aka Waldo.
>
>
> --- In Distillers@yahoogroups.com, Robert Hubble <zymurgybob@> wrote:
> >
> >
> > Hi Riku,
> >
> > Just for background, my whisk(e)y experience is mostly sparged
> > malted barley for a single-malt, or sour mashed corn-based, for
> > a bourbon, but I'm not such a traditionalist that experimenting
> > and going in different directions has no appeal.
> >
> > As far as I can tell, the corn sour-mashing depends on a
> > particular microbial population, fungi, bacteria, and God-knows-
> > what, that are cultured in Pint's sour-starting process. I have
> > no idea what microbes live on the other grains you list.
> >
> > What I'd try, if I were you, would be a primarily barley malt
> > based whiskey, but with the mash initially innoculated with
> > a small amount of corn microbes. This would use mostly the
> > least expensive grain, and requiring only traces of the most
> > expensive.
> >
> > While I can't predict with certainty, this should give you a
> > Scotch whisky, with a bit of sour-mash flavor, and a perfect
> > candidate for Harry's essence of peatreak. (I'm coveting
> > about a kilo of Irish peat, for just that purpose)
> >
> > If you absolutely can't get a small amount of "live" corn,
> > contact me offline, and we might arrange something.
> >
> > Zymurgy Bob, a simple potstiller
> >
> >
> >
> > To: Distillers@yahoogroups.com
> > From: abbababbaccc@
> > Date: Wed, 28 Jan 2009 12:14:38 +0000
> > Subject: [Distillers] Sour mash - non corn recipe?
> >
> >
> > Gudday all,
> >
> >
> >
> > Since I have adequate amount of neutral stuff in reserve after my
> >
> > latest experiments, I decided to try something new for me - sour mash.
> >
> > Unfortunately I live in a frozen periferia where corn is a scarce raw
> >
> > material so I need to look at other grains. A quick visit to local
> >
> > supermarket gave me following choices:
> >
> >
> >
> > Rolled oat ~1 eur / kilo
> >
> > Rolled wheat ~1.20/ kilo
> >
> > Rolled barley ~1.20/ kilo
> >
> > Rolled rye ~1.50/ kilo
> >
> > Malted barley ~1 eur/kilo
> >
> >
> >
> > Now I know there are some whiskey experts on the list, the question
> >
> > is - what kind of grainbill would you do from ingredients above? The
> >
> > plan is to do an intermittent 3 cycle sour mash as described by Ian
> >
> > Smiley and I'm looking something a bit more flavorful, perhaps
> >
> > something I could flavor with some "petreek".
> >
> >
> >
> > Cheers, Riku
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > __________________________________________________________
> > Windows Live™: E-mail. Chat. Share. Get more ways to connect.
> >
> http://windowslive.com/explore?ocid=TXT_TAGLM_WL_t2_allup_explore_012009
> >
>

Hi ZB,

I totally aggree with you 100%, this is how many of the wine yeasts were cultivated off the skins of individual grape varieties - why we have so many different strains of wine yeasts.

However, I dont think that the sour mashing technique is reliant on these microbes to make it work from the persective of maintaining consistancy beween batches, increasing flavors and lowering pH levels in a sour mash - corn or otherwise.  Of course a corn sour mash will give a different flavor profile from a sour mash made from wheat, rye or another type of grain.  All im saying is that this procedure may be transferred sucessfully to any type of grain or fruit or sugar based fermentation as well.  The use of dunder in rum making is a very clsoe and  similar process.

Regarding rye being dangerous to sour mashing, I dont believe this to be so either:

"The most common Bourbon recipes consist of at least 51% corn, barley malt and rye or wheat.  Each Distiller takes great care in selecting their grains......."   

From: About Our Kentucky Bourbon_ http://www.kentuckybarrels.com/KentuckyBourbon.html

I believe most of the Bourbon makers and Tennessee whisk(e)y makers incorporating the sour mash method use some rye grain - (may be wrong but i think Maker's Mark uses wheat). 

Regarding the poisonous ergot fungus that is common in rye infections, these Distillers take great care to avoid that.  Also as Zapata mentioned, it is visible to the naked eye and occurs on the rye stem itself - not after processing - see pictue below.

Vino es Veritas,

Jim aka Waldo.

PS.  Ive never made apple cider or apple jack without the skins - we just went to the orchards, picked the apples and threw em in the apple crusher - skins, worms and all - trying to skin all those hundreds of apples would a been silly.

(middle one is rye - I think you can click on it to enlarge.)

--- In Distillers@yahoogroups.com, "tgfoitwoods" <bob@...> wrote:
>
>
> Hey Jim,
>
> Unless memory has completely left me, we clearly know that apples
> and grapes have specific microbial cultures that have evolved
> symbiotically with the fruit, and we simplistically call those
> cultures "skin yeast". Because of the peculiarly toxic nature of
> some rye fungi ergot, we know that some grains can also have unique
> flora, so maybe corn does, too. Thinking about that, a rye sourmash
> under the right conditions could be deadly.
>
> Apple juice fermented with skin yeast produces a different product
> than the same juice fermented with, say, EC1118, so, for better of for
> worse, the source of the infecting flora is not immaterial.
>
> I'm not saying that corn flora is necessary for a a good sourmash,
> I'm just saying it's a known-vigorous souring culture. Anyone who had
> used Pint's sour-starting process will tell you that corn produces a
> strong and complex souring; it would be enlightening to try Pint's
> process on other grains, but I think I'd avoid doing it with rye.
>
> Zymurgy Bob, a simple potstiller

We should also note that in case of Ian's recipe (and my version) the
rye and other grains are allready processed to a stage where all
original microbes are dead.

The mash is going on happily and smells good. In a week or two I
should know what the final result is. The electric blanket is really
helping, looks like 24h turbo in action.

Cheers, Riku

--- In Distillers@yahoogroups.com, "Zapata Vive" <zapatavive@...>
wrote:
>
> If your concerns of rye are in regards to ergot, I believe they are
unfounded.  The life cycle of the ergot fungus that infects rye is a
very visible horn shaped tissue called a sclerotia.  It is about as
long as a rye berry itself, purplish black in color, and clearly
visible.  It will not be present in grain intended for human
consumption, animal consumption, or seed purposes.  And if any of
that isn't enough, the toxins that are produced by ergot are both
very fragile and very reactive.  Which means that it will be
decomposed during fermentation and especially during the heat of
distillation.  Concerns of the ergot fungus growing in a mash are
even more unlikely.  The life cycle of ergot fungus is such that the
sclerotia need to be kept cold and dry for a period, then warm and
moist (not submerged or soaked!) for a period, before growing little
spikes which release spores, which then would be able to grow in a
liquid environment.  Basically, you would need to keep your grains
moist with no standing water, for several weeks waiting for the
spores to form, and then add water.  But of course unless you took
extreme measure never used in our hobby, your mash would rot and
proliferate with bacteria, molds, wild yeasts, and all sorts of funky
(and possibly also dangerous) microbes.
>
> And aside from that, there are other species of ergot that also
produce ergot toxins which attack all the other grains, including
corn.  It's not a problem with other grains either because the ergot
isn't in grains we can buy, which you can readily verify when looking
at your grain.  Ergot sclerotia in other grains can be different
shapes, but the colors and shapes will make them stand out in a sack
or pail of grain.
>
> I will admit after saying you won't find any, that I have found
ergot sclerotia in a bird seed mixture of millet, sorghum, cracked
corn and sunflower seeds.  I was specifically looking for them, and
found about 3 sclerotia in 120 pounds of seed.  I have never seen
them again in several hundred pounds of seed over the years.  The
toxins in such a small amount of ergot would be degraded by the time
you would get the grains, and even more quickly if they were milled
with the grain.  Scientists working with these chemicals must
painstakingly protect them from light, air, heat and any other
reactive chemical.
>
> Basically, ergot is not much of an issue, and is not specific to
barley.
>
> / Sorry for the rant, I'm a dork who was previously prescribed
migraine medication derived from ergot, which of course meant I had
to learn everything I could on the subject.
>
> But it is true that different grains will carry different microbes,
but they will be rather similar, and the mash conditions will favor
similar species and types of species regardless of grain.  There may
well be some difference, but I bet they are more similar than I'd be
able to tell from a mash.  I would also expect as much variation in
microbes on corn from different regions as I would between different
grains grown in the same region.  Meaning I'd expect that the
microbes on Kansas grown corn and wheat would be more similar than
those of Kansas corn vs. Canadian corn.  This however is pure
speculation on my part.

Hey JB,

Im sorry,  didnt realize you were talking about "souring" the mash
before fermentation.  If you could point me in a direction to where I
could find Sherm's write up on this, would be much appreciated.  Got my
interest up now.

Thanks,

Vino es Veritas,

Jim aka Waldo.


--- In Distillers@yahoogroups.com, Robert Hubble <zymurgybob@...> wrote:
>
>
> Hi Jim,
>
> And you are also correct, of course.
>
> Any confusion between us probably stems from the fact that
> my sourmash process is based on Pint's creation of the original
> soured starter, before any normal fermentation has occurred.
> It's not really traditional, and muddied the waters.
>
> In Pint's process, for the first week or more you have only the
> grain, its microbes, and water. This lets you pretend that your first
> mashing is really some later iteration. What I was trying to get
> across in my feeble way, is that the environment into which you
> introduce your first grain to be fermented is already wildly active
> so it more or less overwhelms, microbially speaking, whatever
> your main grains bring to the party.
>
> I kinda went overboard trying to get across that different
> grains carry different flora; I know full well that rye is
> normally fine in a sour mash.
>
> I'm still not entirely sure, however, that a hamfisted stiller
> couldn't do something dangerous trying to culture *only* rye
> (no yeast or other grains) for a few weeks.
>
> I'll stop fussing...lol
>
> Zymurgy Bob, a simple potstiller

--- In Distillers@yahoogroups.com, "jamesonbeam1" <jamesonbeam1@...>
wrote:
>
>
> Hey JB,
   If you could point me in a direction to where I
> could find Sherm's write up on this, would be much appreciated.  Got my
> interest up now.
>
> Thanks,
>
> Vino es Veritas,
>
> Jim aka Waldo.

I believe its this on Jim.
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Distillers/message/43361
May be a good one for the DB.

Mason

Hey ZB,

I've been doin' it the other way around, dump the fermented wash into
the perferated bucket and let drain (suspended over another bucket,
of course). Takes a couple 3 hours, but like you say, you can spend
that time doin' other stuff (like sleeping). After fermentation, the
wash is nowhere near as thick as the wort was. To each his own, works
for me.

Tip one, Morgan


--- In Distillers@yahoogroups.com, Robert Hubble <zymurgybob@...>
wrote:
>
>
> You've probably all heard me bitch about the difficulty of
> separating the wash from the spent grain after fermenting
> on the grain, in this case about 35 gallons of the sourmash
> bourbon we've been discussing. I apologize for the whining,
> but I think I've found something really close to the perfect
> solution, at least for me.
>
> I think I've tried about every combination of straining,
> draining, squeezing, and pressing, with little joy. On this
> last batch of sourmash bourbon, I had enough liquid
> standing on the grain for about 20-25 gallons of wash,
> and all I had to do was scoop it off, but there was still
> a helluva lot of liquid below the surface of the grain.
>
> As part of the previous efforts, I had perforated a 5-gallon
> plastic bucket with a *lot* of perhaps 3/16 (about 4.8mm)
> holes, sides and bottom, and I wondered if I could just
> push that bucket down into the grain, until it bottomed out,
> and collect what liquid accumulated.  I'm here to tell you
> this works like a charm, especially when coupled with my
> new pump/self starter siphon rig. It takes a bit of time,
> but that time can be spent eating, sleeping, scratching itches
> as necessary, and dreaming about the carboy of bourbon
> I'm about to age. It beats the hell out of torturing masses
> of soggy grain to get those last drops.
>
> For anyone seeking to overcome the lousy effort/booze
> ratio of ferment-on-the-grain whiskeys. I highly recommend
> my bucket.
>
> Zymurgy Bob, a simple potstiller
>
>
>
> To: Distillers@yahoogroups.com
> From: rye_junkie@...
> Date: Fri, 30 Jan 2009 13:58:32 +0000
> Subject: [Distillers] Re: Sour mash - non corn recipe?
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>             --- In Distillers@yahoogroups.com, "jamesonbeam1"
<jamesonbeam1@>
>
> wrote:
>
> >
>
> >
>
> > Hey JB,
>
>   If you could point me in a direction to where I
>
> > could find Sherm's write up on this, would be much appreciated.
Got my
>
> > interest up now.
>
> >
>
> > Thanks,
>
> >
>
> > Vino es Veritas,
>
> >
>
> > Jim aka Waldo.
>
>
>
> I believe its this on Jim.
>
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Distillers/message/43361
>
> May be a good one for the DB.
>
>
>
> Mason
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> _________________________________________________________________
> Windows Live™: E-mail. Chat. Share. Get more ways to connect.
> http://windowslive.com/howitworks?
ocid=TXT_TAGLM_WL_t2_allup_howitworks_012009
>

----- Original Message -----

From: morganfield1

To: Distillers@yahoogroups.com

Sent: Friday, January 30, 2009 8:07 PM

Subject: [Distillers] NOW: Grain/wash separation

Hey ZB,

I've been doin' it the other way around, dump the fermented wash into
the perferated bucket and let drain (suspended over another bucket,
of course). Takes a couple 3 hours, but like you say, you can spend
that time doin' other stuff (like sleeping). After fermentation, the
wash is nowhere near as thick as the wort was. To each his own, works
for me.

Tip one, Morgan

--- In Distillers@yahoogroups.com, Robert Hubble <zymurgybob@...>
wrote:
>
>
> You've probably all heard me bitch about the difficulty of
> separating the wash from the spent grain after fermenting
> on the grain, in this case about 35 gallons of the sourmash
> bourbon we've been discussing. I apologize for the whining,
> but I think I've found something really close to the perfect
> solution, at least for me.
>
> I think I've tried about every combination of straining,
> draining, squeezing, and pressing, with little joy. On this
> last batch of sourmash bourbon, I had enough liquid
> standing on the grain for about 20-25 gallons of wash,
> and all I had to do was scoop it off, but there was still
> a helluva lot of liquid below the surface of the grain.
>
> As part of the previous efforts, I had perforated a 5-gallon
> plastic bucket with a *lot* of perhaps 3/16 (about 4.8mm)
> holes, sides and bottom, and I wondered if I could just
> push that bucket down into the grain, until it bottomed out,
> and collect what liquid accumulated. I'm here to tell you
> this works like a charm, especially when coupled with my
> new pump/self starter siphon rig. It takes a bit of time,
> but that time can be spent eating, sleeping, scratching itches
> as necessary, and dreaming about the carboy of bourbon
> I'm about to age. It beats the hell out of torturing masses
> of soggy grain to get those last drops.
>
> For anyone seeking to overcome the lousy effort/booze
> ratio of ferment-on-the-grain whiskeys. I highly recommend
> my bucket.
>
> Zymurgy Bob, a simple potstiller
>
>
>
> To: Distillers@yahoogroups.com
> From: rye_junkie@...
> Date: Fri, 30 Jan 2009 13:58:32 +0000
> Subject: [Distillers] Re: Sour mash - non corn recipe?
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> --- In Distillers@yahoogroups.com, "jamesonbeam1"
<jamesonbeam1@>
>
> wrote:
>
> >
>
> >
>
> > Hey JB,
>
> If you could point me in a direction to where I
>
> > could find Sherm's write up on this, would be much appreciated.
Got my
>
> > interest up now.
>
> >
>
> > Thanks,
>
> >
>
> > Vino es Veritas,
>
> >
>
> > Jim aka Waldo.
>
>
>
> I believe its this on Jim.
>
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Distillers/message/43361
>
> May be a good one for the DB.
>
>
>
> Mason
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> __________________________________________________________
> Windows Live™: E-mail. Chat. Share. Get more ways to connect.
> http://windowslive.com/howitworks?
ocid=TXT_TAGLM_WL_t2_allup_howitworks_012009
>

Hi, folks,

I did almost the same with the plastic bucket  --  cut a circle from
the lid the right size to rest in it a plastic colander.

Works really well as a strainer and if you want you can lay some
muslin in it, or a stocking, for finer straining.

Regards,

The Baker


--- In Distillers@yahoogroups.com, "Zapata Vive" <zapatavive@...>
wrote:
>
> A similar idea without having to drill any holes.  And it modifies
a $1 lid instead of a $5 bucket (yes, I'm really that cheap
sometimes).
>
> A soldering gun works great at cutting plastic.  I cut the middle
out of the lid for a 5 gallon bucket, making a ring that snaps snug
onto the bucket.  I can lay a piece of window screen or fabric
(depending on how much you want to filter / how fast it will come
through / clog up etc) anyway, lay that over the bucket, snap the
ring on to hold it in place, and turn it over to drain.  Set it on
another bucket, in a pot, whatever.
>
> But yeah, all great ideas.
>
>   ----- Original Message -----
>   From: morganfield1
>   To: Distillers@yahoogroups.com
>   Sent: Friday, January 30, 2009 8:07 PM
>   Subject: [Distillers] NOW: Grain/wash separation
>
>
>   Hey ZB,
>
>   I've been doin' it the other way around, dump the fermented wash
into
>   the perferated bucket and let drain (suspended over another
bucket,
>   of course). Takes a couple 3 hours, but like you say, you can
spend
>   that time doin' other stuff (like sleeping). After fermentation,
the
>   wash is nowhere near as thick as the wort was. To each his own,
works
>   for me.
>
>   Tip one, Morgan
>
>   --- In Distillers@yahoogroups.com, Robert Hubble <zymurgybob@>
>   wrote:
>   >
>   >
>   > You've probably all heard me bitch about the difficulty of
>   > separating the wash from the spent grain after fermenting
>   > on the grain, in this case about 35 gallons of the sourmash
>   > bourbon we've been discussing. I apologize for the whining,
>   > but I think I've found something really close to the perfect
>   > solution, at least for me.
>   >
>   > I think I've tried about every combination of straining,
>   > draining, squeezing, and pressing, with little joy. On this
>   > last batch of sourmash bourbon, I had enough liquid
>   > standing on the grain for about 20-25 gallons of wash,
>   > and all I had to do was scoop it off, but there was still
>   > a helluva lot of liquid below the surface of the grain.
>   >
>   > As part of the previous efforts, I had perforated a 5-gallon
>   > plastic bucket with a *lot* of perhaps 3/16 (about 4.8mm)
>   > holes, sides and bottom, and I wondered if I could just
>   > push that bucket down into the grain, until it bottomed out,
>   > and collect what liquid accumulated. I'm here to tell you
>   > this works like a charm, especially when coupled with my
>   > new pump/self starter siphon rig. It takes a bit of time,
>   > but that time can be spent eating, sleeping, scratching itches
>   > as necessary, and dreaming about the carboy of bourbon
>   > I'm about to age. It beats the hell out of torturing masses
>   > of soggy grain to get those last drops.
>   >
>   > For anyone seeking to overcome the lousy effort/booze
>   > ratio of ferment-on-the-grain whiskeys. I highly recommend
>   > my bucket.
>   >
>   > Zymurgy Bob, a simple potstiller
>   >
>   >
>   >
>   > To: Distillers@yahoogroups.com
>   > From: rye_junkie@
>   > Date: Fri, 30 Jan 2009 13:58:32 +0000
>   > Subject: [Distillers] Re: Sour mash - non corn recipe?
>   >
>   >
>   >
>   >
>   >
>   >
>   >
>   >
>   >
>   >
>   >
>   >
>   >
>   >
>   >
>   >
>   >
>   >
>   >
>   >
>   > --- In Distillers@yahoogroups.com, "jamesonbeam1"
>   <jamesonbeam1@>
>   >
>   > wrote:
>   >
>   > >
>   >
>   > >
>   >
>   > > Hey JB,
>   >
>   > If you could point me in a direction to where I
>   >
>   > > could find Sherm's write up on this, would be much
appreciated.
>   Got my
>   >
>   > > interest up now.
>   >
>   > >
>   >
>   > > Thanks,
>   >
>   > >
>   >
>   > > Vino es Veritas,
>   >
>   > >
>   >
>   > > Jim aka Waldo.
>   >
>   >
>   >
>   > I believe its this on Jim.
>   >
>   > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Distillers/message/43361
>   >
>   > May be a good one for the DB.
>   >
>   >
>   >
>   > Mason
>   >
>   >
>   >
>   >
>   >
>   >
>   >
>   >
>   >
>   >
>   >
>   >
>   >
>   >
>   >
>   >
>   >
>   >
>   >
>   > __________________________________________________________
>   > Windows LiveT: E-mail. Chat. Share. Get more ways to connect.
>   > http://windowslive.com/howitworks?
>   ocid=TXT_TAGLM_WL_t2_allup_howitworks_012009
>   >
>

----- Original Message -----

From: gff_stwrt

To: Distillers@yahoogroups.com

Sent: Friday, January 30, 2009 8:52 PM

Subject: [Distillers] Re: NOW: Grain/wash separation

Hi, folks,

I did almost the same with the plastic bucket -- cut a circle from
the lid the right size to rest in it a plastic colander.

Works really well as a strainer and if you want you can lay some
muslin in it, or a stocking, for finer straining.

Regards,

The Baker

--- In Distillers@yahoogroups.com, "Zapata Vive" <zapatavive@...>
wrote:
>
> A similar idea without having to drill any holes. And it modifies
a $1 lid instead of a $5 bucket (yes, I'm really that cheap
sometimes).
>
> A soldering gun works great at cutting plastic. I cut the middle
out of the lid for a 5 gallon bucket, making a ring that snaps snug
onto the bucket. I can lay a piece of window screen or fabric
(depending on how much you want to filter / how fast it will come
through / clog up etc) anyway, lay that over the bucket, snap the
ring on to hold it in place, and turn it over to drain. Set it on
another bucket, in a pot, whatever.
>
> But yeah, all great ideas.
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: morganfield1
> To: Distillers@yahoogroups.com
> Sent: Friday, January 30, 2009 8:07 PM
> Subject: [Distillers] NOW: Grain/wash separation
>
>
> Hey ZB,
>
> I've been doin' it the other way around, dump the fermented wash
into
> the perferated bucket and let drain (suspended over another
bucket,
> of course). Takes a couple 3 hours, but like you say, you can
spend
> that time doin' other stuff (like sleeping). After fermentation,
the
> wash is nowhere near as thick as the wort was. To each his own,
works
> for me.
>
> Tip one, Morgan
>
> --- In Distillers@yahoogroups.com, Robert Hubble <zymurgybob@>
> wrote:
> >
> >
> > You've probably all heard me bitch about the difficulty of
> > separating the wash from the spent grain after fermenting
> > on the grain, in this case about 35 gallons of the sourmash
> > bourbon we've been discussing. I apologize for the whining,
> > but I think I've found something really close to the perfect
> > solution, at least for me.
> >
> > I think I've tried about every combination of straining,
> > draining, squeezing, and pressing, with little joy. On this
> > last batch of sourmash bourbon, I had enough liquid
> > standing on the grain for about 20-25 gallons of wash,
> > and all I had to do was scoop it off, but there was still
> > a helluva lot of liquid below the surface of the grain.
> >
> > As part of the previous efforts, I had perforated a 5-gallon
> > plastic bucket with a *lot* of perhaps 3/16 (about 4.8mm)
> > holes, sides and bottom, and I wondered if I could just
> > push that bucket down into the grain, until it bottomed out,
> > and collect what liquid accumulated. I'm here to tell you
> > this works like a charm, especially when coupled with my
> > new pump/self starter siphon rig. It takes a bit of time,
> > but that time can be spent eating, sleeping, scratching itches
> > as necessary, and dreaming about the carboy of bourbon
> > I'm about to age. It beats the hell out of torturing masses
> > of soggy grain to get those last drops.
> >
> > For anyone seeking to overcome the lousy effort/booze
> > ratio of ferment-on-the-grain whiskeys. I highly recommend
> > my bucket.
> >
> > Zymurgy Bob, a simple potstiller
> >
> >
> >
> > To: Distillers@yahoogroups.com
> > From: rye_junkie@
> > Date: Fri, 30 Jan 2009 13:58:32 +0000
> > Subject: [Distillers] Re: Sour mash - non corn recipe?
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > --- In Distillers@yahoogroups.com, "jamesonbeam1"
> <jamesonbeam1@>
> >
> > wrote:
> >
> > >
> >
> > >
> >
> > > Hey JB,
> >
> > If you could point me in a direction to where I
> >
> > > could find Sherm's write up on this, would be much
appreciated.
> Got my
> >
> > > interest up now.
> >
> > >
> >
> > > Thanks,
> >
> > >
> >
> > > Vino es Veritas,
> >
> > >
> >
> > > Jim aka Waldo.
> >
> >
> >
> > I believe its this on Jim.
> >
> > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Distillers/message/43361
> >
> > May be a good one for the DB.
> >
> >
> >
> > Mason
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
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> > Windows LiveT: E-mail. Chat. Share. Get more ways to connect.
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----- Original Message -----

From: Zapata Vive

To: Distillers@yahoogroups.com

Sent: Friday, January 30, 2009 6:33 PM

Subject: Re: [Distillers] NOW: Grain/wash separation

A similar idea without having to drill any holes.  And it modifies a $1 lid instead of a $5 bucket (yes, I'm really that cheap sometimes).

 

A soldering gun works great at cutting plastic.  I cut the middle out of the lid for a 5 gallon bucket, making a ring that snaps snug onto the bucket.  I can lay a piece of window screen or fabric (depending on how much you want to filter / how fast it will come through / clog up etc) anyway, lay that over the bucket, snap the ring on to hold it in place, and turn it over to drain.  Set it on another bucket, in a pot, whatever.

 

But yeah, all great ideas.

 

----- Original Message -----

From: morganfield1

To: Distillers@yahoogroups.com

Sent: Friday, January 30, 2009 8:07 PM

Subject: [Distillers] NOW: Grain/wash separation

Hey ZB,

I've been doin' it the other way around, dump the fermented wash into
the perferated bucket and let drain (suspended over another bucket,
of course). Takes a couple 3 hours, but like you say, you can spend
that time doin' other stuff (like sleeping). After fermentation, the
wash is nowhere near as thick as the wort was. To each his own, works
for me.

Tip one, Morgan

--- In Distillers@yahoogroups.com, Robert Hubble <zymurgybob@...>
wrote:
>
>
> You've probably all heard me bitch about the difficulty of
> separating the wash from the spent grain after fermenting
> on the grain, in this case about 35 gallons of the sourmash
> bourbon we've been discussing. I apologize for the whining,
> but I think I've found something really close to the perfect
> solution, at least for me.
>
> I think I've tried about every combination of straining,
> draining, squeezing, and pressing, with little joy. On this
> last batch of sourmash bourbon, I had enough liquid
> standing on the grain for about 20-25 gallons of wash,
> and all I had to do was scoop it off, but there was still
> a helluva lot of liquid below the surface of the grain.
>
> As part of the previous efforts, I had perforated a 5-gallon
> plastic bucket with a *lot* of perhaps 3/16 (about 4.8mm)
> holes, sides and bottom, and I wondered if I could just
> push that bucket down into the grain, until it bottomed out,
> and collect what liquid accumulated. I'm here to tell you
> this works like a charm, especially when coupled with my
> new pump/self starter siphon rig. It takes a bit of time,
> but that time can be spent eating, sleeping, scratching itches
> as necessary, and dreaming about the carboy of bourbon
> I'm about to age. It beats the hell out of torturing masses
> of soggy grain to get those last drops.
>
> For anyone seeking to overcome the lousy effort/booze
> ratio of ferment-on-the-grain whiskeys. I highly recommend
> my bucket.
>
> Zymurgy Bob, a simple potstiller
>
>
>
> To: Distillers@yahoogroups.com
> From: rye_junkie@...
> Date: Fri, 30 Jan 2009 13:58:32 +0000
> Subject: [Distillers] Re: Sour mash - non corn recipe?
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> --- In Distillers@yahoogroups.com, "jamesonbeam1"
<jamesonbeam1@>
>
> wrote:
>
> >
>
> >
>
> > Hey JB,
>
> If you could point me in a direction to where I
>
> > could find Sherm's write up on this, would be much appreciated.
Got my
>
> > interest up now.
>
> >
>
> > Thanks,
>
> >
>
> > Vino es Veritas,
>
> >
>
> > Jim aka Waldo.
>
>
>
> I believe its this on Jim.
>
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Distillers/message/43361
>
> May be a good one for the DB.
>
>
>
> Mason
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> __________________________________________________________
> Windows Live™: E-mail. Chat. Share. Get more ways to connect.
> http://windowslive.com/howitworks?
ocid=TXT_TAGLM_WL_t2_allup_howitworks_012009
>

---

No virus found in this incoming message.
Checked by AVG - http://www.avg.com
Version: 8.0.176 / Virus Database: 270.10.16/1926 - Release Date: 1/30/2009 5:31 PM

This is waking up the mad scientist in me :)

What about vacuum distillation, no worries about scorching and it
could well be done on grains. On one side bain marie heated to 40C
holding the grain and on the other side the condenser at 20C. That
could be made from two vessels sturdy enough to handle vacuum.
Connect them with, say 110mm PP sewage pipe components or 2" copper
pipe. A level indicator to the condenser so you know when to stop and
a powerful vacuum pump. Just fill the bainmarie vessel with mash,
suck the air out and let it do it's deed.

Cheers, Riku

--- In Distillers@yahoogroups.com, "James Hoyt" <dusty-corner@...>
wrote:
>
> I have tried the 5 gal plastic bucket with the hole using a paint
strainer-real pain
>
> I found and bought and old-15 yr washing machine, took the center
agitator out of it and put plastic screen around the inside of the
tub, holding it in place with silicon
>
> Works really good, the spun grain is so dry after the spin cycle
that it does not clump when taken out
>
> Total investment was around $50, 35 for the washing machine and the
rest for the screen and silicon
>
> The biggest problem with it is when it is spinning, it really puts
out the fluid and you need a large bucket or tub to hold the fluid in
place so that it does not splash onto the ground.
>
> James Hoyt
>

Got ya, ZB, didn't notice you were doing 25 gal washes. Ya, it would
take a week!

Tip one, Morgan

--- In Distillers@yahoogroups.com, Robert Hubble <zymurgybob@...>
wrote:
>
>
> Hey Morgan ans Zapata
>
> Actually I used to do what Morgan suggests, but it only handled
> 4 to 5 gallons per batch, and a batch took hours to drain, so I'd
> do a lot of manual squeezing. In this case, I was trying to drain
> perhaps 25 gallons of grain, in a 55-gallon drum. I'd have been
> at it all week.
>
> There was a day when I might have tried to flip that 55-gallon
> drum full of wet grain over my head to balance it on a bucket, but
> that day's long gone. I'm still happy with my bucket.
>
> Zymurgy Bob, a simple potstiller
>
>
>
> To: Distillers@yahoogroups.com
> From: zapatavive@...
> Date: Fri, 30 Jan 2009 20:33:44 -0500
> Subject: Re: [Distillers] NOW: Grain/wash separation
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> A similar idea without having to drill any
> holes.  And it modifies a $1 lid instead of a $5 bucket (yes, I'm
really
> that cheap sometimes).
>
> A soldering gun works great at cutting
> plastic.  I cut the middle out of the lid for a 5 gallon bucket,
making a
> ring that snaps snug onto the bucket.  I can lay a piece of window
screen
> or fabric (depending on how much you want to filter / how fast it
will come
> through / clog up etc) anyway, lay that over the bucket, snap the
ring on to
> hold it in place, and turn it over to drain.  Set it on another
bucket, in
> a pot, whatever.
>
> But yeah, all great ideas.
>
>
>   ----- Original Message -----
>   From:
>   morganfield1
>   To: Distillers@yahoogroups.com
>   Sent: Friday, January 30, 2009 8:07
>   PM
>   Subject: [Distillers] NOW: Grain/wash
>   separation
>
>
>
>   Hey ZB,
>
> I've been doin' it the other way around, dump the fermented
>   wash into
> the perferated bucket and let drain (suspended over another
>   bucket,
> of course). Takes a couple 3 hours, but like you say, you can
>   spend
> that time doin' other stuff (like sleeping). After fermentation,
the
>
> wash is nowhere near as thick as the wort was. To each his own,
works
>
> for me.
>
> Tip one, Morgan
>
> --- In Distillers@yahoogroups.com,
>   Robert Hubble <zymurgybob@>
> wrote:
> >
> >
> >
>   You've probably all heard me bitch about the difficulty of
> > separating
>   the wash from the spent grain after fermenting
> > on the grain, in this
>   case about 35 gallons of the sourmash
> > bourbon we've been discussing. I
>   apologize for the whining,
> > but I think I've found something really
>   close to the perfect
> > solution, at least for me.
> >
> > I
>   think I've tried about every combination of straining,
> > draining,
>   squeezing, and pressing, with little joy. On this
> > last batch of
>   sourmash bourbon, I had enough liquid
> > standing on the grain for about
>   20-25 gallons of wash,
> > and all I had to do was scoop it off, but there
>   was still
> > a helluva lot of liquid below the surface of the
>   grain.
> >
> > As part of the previous efforts, I had perforated a
>   5-gallon
> > plastic bucket with a *lot* of perhaps 3/16 (about
>   4.8mm)
> > holes, sides and bottom, and I wondered if I could just
>
> > push that bucket down into the grain, until it bottomed out,
> >
>   and collect what liquid accumulated. I'm here to tell you
> > this works
>   like a charm, especially when coupled with my
> > new pump/self starter
>   siphon rig. It takes a bit of time,
> > but that time can be spent
>   eating, sleeping, scratching itches
> > as necessary, and dreaming about
>   the carboy of bourbon
> > I'm about to age. It beats the hell out of
>   torturing masses
> > of soggy grain to get those last drops.
> >
>
> > For anyone seeking to overcome the lousy effort/booze
> > ratio
>   of ferment-on-the-grain whiskeys. I highly recommend
> > my
>   bucket.
> >
> > Zymurgy Bob, a simple potstiller
> >
> >
>
> >
> > To: Distillers@yahoogroups.com
> >
>   From: rye_junkie@
> > Date: Fri, 30 Jan 2009 13:58:32
>   +0000
> > Subject: [Distillers] Re: Sour mash - non corn recipe?
> >
>
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
>
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
>
> >
> >
> >
> > --- In Distillers@yahoogroups.com,
>   "jamesonbeam1"
> <jamesonbeam1@>
> >
> > wrote:
> >
>
> > >
> >
> > >
> >
> > > Hey JB,
> >
>
> > If you could point me in a direction to where I
> >
> > >
>   could find Sherm's write up on this, would be much appreciated.
> Got
>   my
> >
> > > interest up now.
> >
> > >
> >
>
> > > Thanks,
> >
> > >
> >
> > > Vino es
>   Veritas,
> >
> > >
> >
> > > Jim aka Waldo.
> >
>
> >
> >
> > I believe its this on Jim.
> >
> > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Distillers/message/43361
> >
>
> > May be a good one for the DB.
> >
> >
> >
> >
>   Mason
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
>
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
>
> >
> >
> >
> >
>   __________________________________________________________
> >
>   Windows Live™: E-mail. Chat. Share. Get more ways to connect.
> > http://windowslive.com/howitworks?
> ocid=TXT_TAGLM_WL_t2_allup_howitworks_012009
> >
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> _________________________________________________________________
> Windows Live™ Hotmail®…more than just e-mail.
> http://windowslive.com/howitworks?
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>