Guidelines for posting in the Exexgay group are as follows.......a monthly
reminder for new members.

Please remember this when you are posting.

1. Tone………keep it respectful……always. No name calling or accusations………..its
poor communication…..this is not the Jerry Springer or Ricky Lake show.

2. Allow others a point of view and opinion……….that’s what makes this world a
wonderful place. Remember that we are all at different places in our
journeys…………the ultimate place for us all is peace with God, ourselves and
others. That can take years.

3. This is a safe space therefore NO inappropriate talk of personal sexual
experiences unless relevant to the topic discussed. No flirting or coming on to
other members of the group in your posts. Do it privately please. No promoting
of sex sites or dating services.

4. Please don’t send lots of or daily news items. We’ve found that it kills
discussion. But if you have a one off article that the majority of the group
would be interested in then post that as it should promote discussion.

5. Consider that a large audience will see your posts. That may include your
present or your next boss. Take care in what you write. Remember too, that list
messages are archived, and that your words may be stored for a very long time in
a place to which many people have access.

6. Create warmth and a sense of community with your posts. Build us up don’t
tear us each other apart.

7. When using humour make a little note afterwards of lol or hehe or :-). That
we know you were joking. Sometimes humour doesn't translate well in emails as we
can't see your face of hear your tone of voice. A good joke is welcome
occasionally.....no need to over do it though.

8. Enjoy your time with us and have fun.......

Following these guidelines keeps this group a safe place and beneficial for all.
If you feel that you can’t work within these guidelines then you won’t enjoy
being a part of the group. When people post in conflict with these guidelines
then they will be asked to change their posts. If they will not do this they
will be removed from the group.

thanks


Anthony
Moderator

Is the volume of e-mail getting to be a bit too much for your inbox? Try the
Daily Digest or Special Notices modes instead of Individual E-mails. It's easy!

1. Log into the group (you have to do this for each group you want to change).
2. Select the Edit My Membership link in the top right corner.  Make sure your
other settings are correct.
3. Look for the Message Delivery section.
4. Select the option you prefer. You have 3 choices to select from:

Individual E-mails

Each and every e-mail is sent to your mailbox as soon as it is posted to the
site. This is probably what you are trying to avoid.

Daily Digest

One e-mail sent to you for every 25 messages posted to the group OR once per
day, whichever happens first. This is probably your best choice.

Special Notices

This is mainly for people who prefer to read messages on the Website. You will
not receive any e-mails except for occasional ones from the moderators. These
are usually very important or very urgent. Usually these go out less than once a
week; sometimes only once a month.

No-Email

Select this option if you do not wish to receive email from the group.  You will
still be able to read the messages on the Exexgay website.

Remember to save your settings or all your work will have been for nothing!

That's all there is to it. It sometimes takes Yahoo an hour or longer to update
your preferences internally. So don't be surprised if you get a few more
individual e-mails after you make this change. If you are still receiving
individual e-mails a day later, double-check your settings and make sure you
aren't signed up under a different e-mail address, too.

hope this helps

anthony
Moderator

Here's an update on Brandon.

He hasn't been to school in weeks and isn't allowed to play with other kids due to other viruses. If he he should get the flu, the doctor has said we can write his death certificate.

Please pray for him

Yowee

--- In Exex-gay@yahoogroups.com, "Yowee" <hivyo@...> wrote:
>
>
> Brandon is an adorable six year old and is my neighbour. He had his
> first liver transplant when he was just 4 years old and now his body has
> gone into rejection.
>
>
>
> We need a miracle for this little boy. We need a donor (a person to die
> and donate their liver) and his mum needs $5,000 for his medical
> expenses such as medication. We also need his body to accept the liver
> and not go into rejection or for God to heal him.
>
>
>
> Why? When it happens, it will be the second liver transplant he has had.
> They will only do a maximum of three transplants in a lifetime.
>
>
>
> If this one fails, Brandon will only get one more chance and then he
> will be left to die. Please PRAY for Brandon's healing and for his
> mum too as she is finding it hard to cope.
>
>
>
> Yowee [:(]
>

Our ever-loving christian brothers protest at moves to allow adoptions
by gay parents on the grounds that it will make the kids gay (and,
what would be wrong with that?). Is this true?

Sydney Morning Herald opinion writer Adelle Horin discusses the evidence:




Sydney morning Herald link:

http://www.smh.com.au/text/articles/2007/0...1414542339.html

QUOTE

I'm not gay, but my four mums are
Date: June 16 2007

Good parents are good irrespective of sexuality, as Adele Horin reports.

EAMON WATERFORD is the sort of young man any mother would be proud to
call son. He is smart, articulate, well-balanced, socially aware, and
just downright nice.

In his case, there are one, two, three, and, at a pinch, four women
who are proud to call Eamon "son". There is Mary Waterford, the mother
who gave birth to him almost 21 years ago, and Jill Day, Mary's
partner at the time. After they split up when Eamon was about two,
Jill moved in with Sarah Dillane; and then Mary and Judy Finch became
partners when Eamon was about six. All the women have been constants
in his life since he can remember.

Eamon calls them "my four mothers" - and, while some might consider
one mother too much, he enthuses about them all.

"I guess they all fulfil different aspects of parenting that I
needed," says Eamon, who divided his time equally between the two
households until he left high school.

At a time when pressure is mounting on state and federal governments
to overturn laws that discriminate against gay couples and gay
parents, Eamon is a reassuring figure. His experience may represent
the future for other children raised by gay parents.

He is a second-year student in international studies at the University
of NSW, and is aiming for a career in politics or the diplomatic
service. He shares a house with two female friends and his "brother",
Charlie, 19, with whom he is particularly close. Charlie is one of
Judy's three children by a former marriage.

That he has turned out so well would be unsurprising to the thousands
of lesbian couples now fuelling a gay baby boom across Australia.

But to traditionalists who believe children need a mother and father
to thrive, it may come as a surprise to learn that Eamon, according to
a growing body of international research, is typical of children
raised by lesbian couples. On average these children are as
well-adjusted and competent as children raised by heterosexual couples
- if not more so.
But this is not research politicians are acquainted with, and only
recently has it become robust enough to withstand critical scrutiny.
Many conservatives say gay parents will have a corrosive effect on the
institution of the family, and will inflict psychological damage on
the children they raise. Father-absence is a big concern.

As these children grow into adults, more are able to reflect on their
own upbringing, and speak for themselves. It is not surprising they,
too, turn the microscope onto their own families.

"Recently I've started questioning myself about how it has affected
me," Eamon says. "I had an absolutely female-dominated childhood;
there must have been 30 or 40 lesbians I knew. But as one friend said,
gay and lesbian parents will do things to mess their kids up in
exactly the same way hetero parents will do."

The long battle for equal rights for gay couples and gay parents is
entering a crucial stage. The Human Rights and Equal Opportunity
Commission's report, "Same-sex: Same Entitlements", to be tabled in
Federal Parliament next week, is expected to recommend overturning a
host of discriminatory federal laws, including laws that effect family
tax benefits, parenting payment, and child support. After a three-year
inquiry, a Victorian Law Reform Commission report, "Assisted
Reproductive Technology and Adoption", this month recommended
extensive legal changes to give gay parents equal rights, including
the right to adopt. Some of its recommendations will be discussed at a
meeting of state and federal attorneys-general next month.

In NSW, the Government will come under pressure from the Gay and
Lesbian Rights Lobby to introduce legislation giving children being
cared for by same-sex partners the same protection under the law as
other children. A crucial proposed change is to accord legal parental
status to the lesbian partner of the birth parent.

As things stand, Jill, being Eamon's non-biological mother, has no
legal rights to access or custody, or obligations to pay child support
even though she has been in his life since his conception, was present
at the birth, and has shared the care. Compared with heterosexual
fathers, lesbian co-parents have been consistently described by
researchers as more involved in their children's daily life. In one
study, lesbian birth mothers reported more than 90 per cent of the
co-mothers were equally involved in parenting, while this was only 37
per cent for straight fathers.

"What is needed is for state law to grant equal parental status for
both women automatically from birth," says Jenni Millbank, professor
of law at the University of Technology, Sydney, "and for those
presumptions to be reflected in federal law, such as the Family Law Act."

In Eamon's case only Mary is his legal parent. "Logically Mary as the
biological mother was in the position of power when we split up," Jill
says, "but she is a woman with a great sense of honour, and she would
not allow herself to exercise her power."
In 1985, Mary and Jill were trailblazers among Sydney lesbians. Eamon
was conceived through artificial self-insemination with sperm donated
by a close heterosexual friend of his mothers. He was one of the first
babies in Australia raised from birth by lesbian parents.

"As the social stigma around homosexuality declines, more women are
coming out as lesbians earlier in life, and they are less likely to
have children in a heterosexual relationship," said Deborah Dempsey, a
sociologist at Swinburne University of Technology, Melbourne, who has
done extensive research on gay families. "There is more confidence
about bringing a child into a gay relationship than in the past."

Mary, then 31, had such a strong maternal drive it swept all doubts
away, including Jill's when they embarked on the rather arduous
project of conception. They had been a couple for only a year, but
once Jill caught the maternal bug it struck with a vengeance. "When I
look back on it now, I was very optimistic," Mary says. "We would have
a baby and this baby would be loved."


As Eamon tells it over coffee, his childhood was idyllic, growing up
in the Blue Mountains, with no sense of being different. The mountains
became a haven for lesbians in the 1980s, some of whom had children
from previous straight relationships, or soon followed Mary's and
Jill's lead. He went to a progressive school, Korowal, where he liked
basketball, athletics and cricket, and excelled in music, drama and
debating. He cannot remember being bullied or teased. He was not alone
as a child of lesbian parents.

"Particularly early on, the majority of my friends would have had
lesbian parents; I was part of a community of children of gay
parents," Eamon says. "I guess it was when we spent a year in Alice
Springs when I was about nine that I first realised it was unusual."

As they were trailblazers in bringing Eamon into the world, so Mary
and Jill became trailblazers in separation, providing something of a
model of co-operation for those who have again followed in their wake.
Just as more lesbian couples have come to emulate straights in having
a family, so too are more of them getting "divorced", Dr Dempsey says.

Eamon was too young to remember any tension over the break-up. Being
shared 50/50 was an arrangement that was fantastic, he says, and at
his insistence it continued through high school. Yet there was plenty
of tension in the early years after Jill moved in with Sarah. "I was
fearful of losing my position with him," Jill says.

Mary says: "There's a PhD to be written in sharing mothering … the
competitiveness and jealousy around being the 'good mother'. Then,
when Sarah wanted to take on the role of being mother as well … that
was terrible. I always came back to the idea it was to Eamon's benefit
to have a lot of people in his life."

Jill says: "We both wanted to have this gorgeous little angel all the
time but our most honourable selves would never allow that to happen."
After Judy arrived on the scene with Charlie, 5, and two teenagers,
the mothering relationship with Eamon was never as intense. However,
he insists that she is one of his mothers. "Judy is the one I have a
laugh with."

The 2001 census recorded 20,000 self-identified same-sex couples, a
figure regarded as a gross under-representation; 19 per cent of the
lesbian couples and 5 per cent of the men had dependent children. Not
counted were the single gays with children, non-resident gay parents
and older children. A survey of almost 5500 gay people in 2005 showed
25 per cent of the women had children, and of those who did not, 51
per cent wanted them.

Most of the studies examine how the children are functioning. Are they
normal by all the usual measures psychologists use, and teachers
observe? One of the pre-eminent researchers is Charlotte Patterson, a
psychology professor at the University of Virginia, who will address a
conference on gay parenting to be held by the Rainbow Families Council
in Melbourne on June 29. In a 1996 study, Patterson found no big
differences among the children of 55 lesbians and 25 heterosexual
women, all of whom had had children through donor insemination.

Last year the Canadian Department of Justice, before legal changes
were introduced, reviewed all the main studies on children of gay
families. It concluded "the vast majority of studies show that
children living with two mothers, and children living with a mother
and father, have the same levels and qualities of social competence".

This was somewhat surprising, considering the potential for children
of lesbian families to experience teasing, bullying and
discrimination. But the research pointed to protective factors - the
quality of the parents' relationship, the high quality of parenting by
lesbians, good economic resources, and outside support.

The children with poorer adjustment, the studies found, were more
likely to be raised in single-parent families - but the parent's
sexual orientation was irrelevant. While many children raised by
single gay or single heterosexual parents do well, they were at a
similar elevated risk of difficulties compared with those raised in
two-parent families. The gender of parents was much less significant,
research showed, than having two of them.

Yet it is only natural, Eamon, thinks, that his unusual family should
have left some distinctive imprint. There is the unresolved
relationship with his father, for example, and the general lack of
male role models in his early life.

Mary and Jill wanted Eamon to know his father, typical of lesbian
parents, who are mostly acquainted with the need for children to know
their biological roots. Dr Dempsey says: "The two-parent model with
the involved donor is one of the most popular parenting models, but
there is a continuum from no father involvement to his role as a third
parent."
Jill and Mary wanted a father who was willing to be acknowledged, who
would have some involvement, but not a day-to-day parenting role.
Eamon, who looks like his father, and lived quite close, saw him
occasionally. They had a friendly enough relationship. Yet an
awkwardness remains, and emotional closeness eludes them. His father
married - "Do I call his wife stepmother? There aren't enough words to
describe these relationships." This "fifth" mother, Eamon says,
"recognises a want in me and him, and our difficulty in doing anything
about it." She has set up holidays together, and the relationship has
improved.
Looking back, he understands he craved male role models, and the world
of manly things. Between the mothers, he had several uncles, but most
of them lived at distances. He became very close to Nick, one of
Sarah's three brothers, but he died when Eamon was 12. "I was hugely
affected," he says.

The subtext in some people's concerns over gay parents is that they
will raise gay children. To gay parents, the very question of their
children's sexuality reveals a homophobic premise - that it matters.
But Judith Stacey, professor of sociology at New York University,
believes there probably are differences when it comes to sexuality,
and they should be celebrated.

"Even a genetic theory would lead you to that conclusion," she told
The New York Times.

However, the research on the young adults' sexuality is sparse and
inconclusive. The children of gay parents understandably are less
affronted by homosexuality than most of their peers. They are more
likely to consider a gay relationship, and even to experiment but,
according to the limited research, appear no more likely to identify
as gay. As researchers point out, nearly all gay people were raised by
heterosexual parents.

It seems intrusive to ask Eamon about his sexuality, but he has given
it some thought. "A lot of people, because of the way they've been
brought up, never question their sexuality," he says. "I've always
known I was attracted to women. For a while I wondered: how did I know
I wasn't attracted to men? I know I'm not gay. But I have a lot of
male gay friends, and a lot of female friends. But with heterosexual
men I find it harder to have a close emotional bond."

Eamon is full of praise for his four mothers. He does not want to be
defined by their sexual orientation. But they have helped make him the
man he is. They have shaped his humanitarian values, his tolerance of
difference, his political conscience, and his intellectual curiosity.
Aware of how hard home life has been for some of his friends from
straight families, he considers himself "amazingly lucky to have these
incredibly loving parents".

Story Picture:

it's not only the end of dawn - but it's probably the end of the G_A_Y
world of sydney that she undoubtedly helped to create.

as the gay hangouts of sydney morph into something different, most of
us gay people in sydney no longer find we need Ockie street in our lives.

True or not True for everyone, this is the end of of life for a quite
remarkable woman. Funerals are generally not the time to analyse the
lives of people, but as the report says, a lot speak good of Dawn, but
there are many question marks over her life. Her connection with
gangster Abe Saffron for one.



you can see her partner and dogs pik here:

http://www.smh.com.au/news/national/gay-sy...ge#contentSwap1


QUOTE

Gay Sydney says goodbye to one who made it so



June 16, 2007

Nightclubs, gay bars, parking lots, Dawn O'Donnell ran them all,
writes Valerie Lawson.

Pik: Dawn O'Donnell's partner Aniek Baten, holding Lady the dachshund,
greets artist Margaret Olley at O'Donnell's funeral.
Photo: Ben Rushton


IT WAS, as the gossip columns regularly say, so Sydney, darling.

The pallbearers took Dawn O'Donnell's body from the church to the
stirring crescendo of Ravel's Bolero.

Earlier, the mourners had drifted into their memories of O'Donnell,
the doyenne of Oxford Street, to a recording of Tchaikovsky's Waltz of
the Flowers, before tapping their toes to I Love the Nightlife ("I got
to boogie …").

The waltz referred to O'Donnell's early life as a professional
ice-skater, the boogie to her career controlling the nightclubs,
steamrooms, and backrooms of Oxford Street.

Arriving at yesterday's funeral service at St Canice's in Elizabeth
Bay, O'Donnell's partner, Aniek Baten, carried one of the couple's
dogs, Lady, and led the other, Bella, on a leash.

The dachshund and doberman were well behaved throughout the 75-minute
service, barking only three times, once to the Tchaikovsky waltz.
Among the 400 or so mourners surrounding the yellow rose-covered
coffin were drag queens, including Carmen and Carlotta, the artist
Margaret Olley, the former lord mayor Lucy Turnbull, denizens of the
demimonde, including a row of black-eyed men in black, and a pew of
40-something ladies with hair cropped in the style of O'Donnell.

Among the speakers were Hong Kong resident Ted Marr, known for his
annual parties held from Zimbabwe to Havana, O'Donnell's Mosman
neighbours, Bev Lange, who once ran the Mardi Gras, Michael Hannah,
also known as "Fluffy", and the performer Mitzi Macintosh.

O'Donnell, a former business partner of Abe Saffron, died on Queen's
birthday weekend, aged 79.

Earlier this week, one of her friends, David Williams (drag name
Beatrice) said "she invented the idea of Oxford Street", helping to
make Sydney one of the gay capitals of the world from the early 1960s
to the mid-1980s.

Born in Paddington, she left school at 15, taught at the Glaciarium
ice rink, was once married to a policeman, Neville Irwin, but took on
a butch manner after working in her own butcher's shop in Sydney's east.

Her face was always free of make-up and she favoured men's shirts and
Fletcher Jones trousers. She wore a skirt three or four times in her
life, once when appearing before a magistrate during a licensing hearing.

O'Donnell met Aniek Baten in 1977, when she was 49 and Baten was 26.
They later married, both wearing white for the wedding.

O'Donnell's first business success was a car park near the Glaciarium
at Railway Square.

David Penfold, who produced shows for O'Donnell's club Capriccio's,
said, "Dawn was very well connected in high places", and on good terms
with police.

She controlled dozens of gay venues around town, many with the late
French restaurateur, Roger Claude Teyssedre.

Before the era of O'Donnell and Teyssedre, gays hid in discreet bars
and toilet beats. As one speaker said yesterday, "Dawn gave us a
place" to come out.

In the early 1960s O'Donnell often attended the Purple Onion, a drag
club in Kensington, eventually run by Williams, who put on shows such
as The Sound of Mucus and A Streetcar named Beatrice.

In Oxford Street, gay club Finnochio's, later Enzo's Wine Bar, had
been open since 1963 - then Ivy Richter opened Ivy's Birdcage, a drag
venue at Taylor Square.

After a fire closed it down, the Ivy team was taken in by Dawn
O'Donnell and Marjorie Hathaway, who opened Capriccio's in 1969.

Four years later, O'Donnell and Teyssedre opened Jools Theatre
Restaurant, with decor that included naked female statues and
bordello-style red velvet wallpaper.

O'Donnell and Teyssedre later ran Patches in Oxford Street.

In her book about the murder of Teyssedre's lover, Ludwig Gertsch,
Sandra Harvey wrote that Patches contained a large wooden tea chest
stuffed with cash used to pay off the police.

O'Donnell also owned the Exchange Hotel, the Toolshed and, with
Saffron and Teyssedre, the lesbian club Ruby Reds in Crown Street.

Costume designer Rose Jackson said "the story had it that she met Abe
Saffron in the car park" she once owned.

At Capriccio's, said Jackson, O'Donnell was very fair.

"She always said, 'if Rose says we need more feathers, we need
feathers. Rose is always right'."

Capriccio's choreographer, ex-Tivoli girl Maggie Martin, said
O'Donnell "treated me very well, she paid well".

"I got a bunch of flowers on opening nights, free drinks."

As Capriccio's themed shows, such as Star Whores, gained fame, they
attracted visiting stars such as Debbie Reynolds, Robert Helpmann,
Lauren Bacall and Sammy Davis Jr.

Williams was the last person to interview O'Donnell - a year ago, for
the Gay Pride Project. He wouldn't repeat her comments. "Some of the
things she talked about were confrontational," he said.

No doubt they were discussed yesterday at her wake - held, of course,
in Oxford Street, at the Midnight Shift.

Brandon the little six year old boy is very sick. He has a middle ear infection and hasn't eaten all day.

He has been asleep since 12 midday (it's now 11pm) and here's the bad news….his liver is bleeding. He is bleeding internally and can bleed to death PLEASE PRAY for Brandon.

Yowee

--- Yowee <hivyo@...> wrote:

>
> Brandon the little six year old boy is very sick. He has a middle
> ear
> infection and hasn't eaten all day.
>
>
>
> He has been asleep since 12 midday (it's now 11pm) and here's
> the bad news….his liver is bleeding. He is bleeding internally and
> can bleed to death PLEASE PRAY for Brandon.
>
I AM PRAYING...

I pray that Brandon's suffering will end.

I pray that Brandon's family will feace God's comforting presensce,

I pray that all who know Brandon will believe in new beginings.

I pray that all who believe remeber that to be ansent from this plane
of existance is to be present with Jesus.




Pax Christi,
Ninure Saunders aka Rainbow Christian
My Blog
http://blog.myspace.com/rainbow_christian

===========================
"All truth passes through three stages: First, it is ridiculed; Second, it is
violently opposed; Third, it is accepted as self-evident." -- Arthur
Schopenhauer


      
________________________________________________________________________________\
___
You snooze, you lose. Get messages ASAP with AutoCheck
in the all-new Yahoo! Mail Beta.
http://advision.webevents.yahoo.com/mailbeta/newmail_html.html

Someone had mentioned a book called "People in Glass Houses."

Is it being published in Australia?
How would someone in America get a hold of it?
Does it have an official release date yet?

One book that IS out now is "Straight to Jesus" which talks about the
history of ex-gay ministries from the perspective of a heterosexual
woman who became a part of the "live-in" ministry in California.

I can get more info on the book for y'all.  (I've forgotten the author,
but the book is REALLY good.)

Jeffrey

I know the author Jeffrey….its Tanya Levin. The latest I heard was that it was still going to print after one publishing house pulled out. Will find out more for you if you like

Anthony

Moderator

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Exex-gay

My sexual orientation is not a sickness to be healed or a sin to be forgiven. My sexual orientation is a gift from my Creator to be accepted, celebrated, and lived with integrity.

Freedom 2 B(e)

Support - Information - Dialogue for GLBTIQ People from Pentecostal/Charismatic Backgrounds go to www.freedom2b.org

---

From: Exex-gay@yahoogroups.com [mailto:Exex-gay@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of jsta43catrocks
Sent: Thursday, 21 June 2007 05:09
To: Exex-gay@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [Exex-gay] Book Info

Someone had mentioned a book called "People in Glass Houses."

Is it being published in Australia?
How would someone in America get a hold of it?
Does it have an official release date yet?

One book that IS out now is "Straight to Jesus" which talks about the
history of ex-gay ministries from the perspective of a heterosexual
woman who became a part of the "live-in" ministry in California.

I can get more info on the book for y'all. (I've forgotten the author,
but the book is REALLY good.)

Jeffrey

Well I grew up AoG as many of you know. In the church I grew up they spoke of the mark being given and you should avoid taking anything in your body etc. Well the preacher said soon and in our life times they would have little devices that store our information, and without it one couldn't trade, get medical treatments or do anything else for that matter. Just like it said in Revelations.

Well was that church right? I read this article this morning and it got my heart to racing. Silly or not it still scared me proper.

http://news.yahoo.com/s/afp/20070626/hl_afp /usheal...

---

Need Mail bonding?
Go to the Yahoo! Mail Q&A for great tips from Yahoo! Answers users.

Why would you be concerned?

Do you have any idea folks have been caught up in trying to ffigure
the "date and time", even tho he tld us "No one knows, only Abba in
heaven"?

How many times have people tried to "read the signs" and been dead
wrong, destroying the faith of many and making a way for others to
mock Christians?

"Let not you heart be troubled"

"We are not given a spirit of fear, but of power and a sound mind".

Do you not trust your Savior?

Hasn't He told you what to do?

Do te work that He has fiven us...Preach the GOOD news of Go'd
inclusive love, work for peace, feed the poor, clothe the naked, help
the homeless, visit the sick.

The Lord will come when He comes, He only needs to find us awake,
ready, and working, doncha think?

--- harry gifford <hraymondg@...> wrote:

> I appreciate the responses given, but no one has really answed the
> question.  I, too, share the concern.  Has any one heard from God
> on this?  Does anyone know another interpretation of what the mark
> of the beast is, and one that means in Revelation?  I am asking
> this from a faith concern vantage point and expect an answer from
> the same in return.  I am gay and pentecostal, so this is an
> important thing for me.  I have seen these articles, too and they
> have given me pause.
>
>   Harry Gifford.
>   www.godandgays.org
>
>
>
>   Well I grew up AoG as many of you know. In the church I grew up
> they spoke of the mark being given and you should avoid taking
> anything in your body etc. Well the preacher said soon and in our
> life times they would have little devices that store our
> information, and without it one couldn't trade, get medical
> treatments or do anything else for that matter. Just like it said
> in Revelations.
>
> Well was that church right? I read this article this morning and it
> got my heart to racing. Silly or not it still scared me proper.
>
> http://news.yahoo.com/s/afp/20070626/hl_afp /usheal...
>
>
> ---------------------------------
>   Need Mail bonding?
> Go to the Yahoo! Mail Q&A for great tips from Yahoo! Answers users.
>
>
>
>
>
> ---------------------------------
> Sick sense of humor? Visit Yahoo! TV's Comedy with an Edge to see
> what's on, when.


Pax Christi,
Ninure Saunders aka Rainbow Christian
My Blog
http://blog.myspace.com/rainbow_christian

===========================
"All truth passes through three stages: First, it is ridiculed; Second, it is
violently opposed; Third, it is accepted as self-evident." -- Arthur
Schopenhauer



________________________________________________________________________________\
____
Don't get soaked.  Take a quick peak at the forecast
with the Yahoo! Search weather shortcut.
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Why would you be concerned?

Do you have any idea folks have been caught up in trying to ffigure
the "date and time", even tho he tld us "No one knows, only Abba in
heaven"?

How many times have people tried to "read the signs" and been dead
wrong, destroying the faith of many and making a way for others to
mock Christians?

"Let not you heart be troubled"

"We are not given a spirit of fear, but of power and a sound mind".

Do you not trust your Savior?

Hasn't He told you what to do?

Do te work that He has fiven us...Preach the GOOD news of Go'd
inclusive love, work for peace, feed the poor, clothe the naked, help
the homeless, visit the sick.

The Lord will come when He comes, He only needs to find us awake,
ready, and working, doncha think?

--- harry gifford <hraymondg@yahoo.com> wrote:

> I appreciate the responses given, but no one has really answed the
> question. I, too, share the concern. Has any one heard from God
> on this? Does anyone know another interpretation of what the mark
> of the beast is, and one that means in Revelation? I am asking
> this from a faith concern vantage point and expect an answer from
> the same in return. I am gay and pentecostal, so this is an
> important thing for me. I have seen these articles, too and they
> have given me pause.
>
> Harry Gifford.
> www.godandgays.org
>
>
>
> Well I grew up AoG as many of you know. In the church I grew up
> they spoke of the mark being given and you should avoid taking
> anything in your body etc. Well the preacher said soon and in our
> life times they would have little devices that store our
> information, and without it one couldn't trade, get medical
> treatments or do anything else for that matter. Just like it said
> in Revelations.
>
> Well was that church right? I read this article this morning and it
> got my heart to racing. Silly or not it still scared me proper.
>
> http://news.yahoo.com/s/afp/20070626/hl_afp /usheal...
>
>
> ---------------------------------
> Need Mail bonding?
> Go to the Yahoo! Mail Q&A for great tips from Yahoo! Answers users.
>
>
>
>
>
> ---------------------------------
> Sick sense of humor? Visit Yahoo! TV's Comedy with an Edge to see
> what's on, when.

Pax Christi,
Ninure Saunders aka Rainbow Christian
My Blog
http://blog.myspace.com/rainbow_christian

===========================
"All truth passes through three stages: First, it is ridiculed; Second, it is violently opposed; Third, it is accepted as self-evident." -- Arthur Schopenhauer

__________________________________________________________
Don't get soaked. Take a quick peak at the forecast
with the Yahoo! Search weather shortcut.
http://tools.search.yahoo.com/shortcuts/#loc_weather

From a faith concern, I'm thinking that the church will have been Raptured away by this point, so it won't affect us directly.

 

From a realistic concern, it would take a LOT of heavy legislation and Senate debate for this to come to pass (no selling, no buying, etc.)

 

From an interpretive concern, I personally avoid Revelation because it's SO symbolic and metaphorical, it's difficult for me to take anything literally from that particular book.

 

Ninure Saunders <ninure@yahoo.com> wrote:

Why would you be concerned?

Do you have any idea folks have been caught up in trying to ffigure
the "date and time", even tho he tld us "No one knows, only Abba in
heaven"?

How many times have people tried to "read the signs" and been dead
wrong, destroying the faith of many and making a way for others to
mock Christians?

"Let not you heart be troubled"

"We are not given a spirit of fear, but of power and a sound mind".

Do you not trust your Savior?

Hasn't He told you what to do?

Do te work that He has fiven us...Preach the GOOD news of Go'd
inclusive love, work for peace, feed the poor, clothe the naked, help
the homeless, visit the sick.

The Lord will come when He comes, He only needs to find us awake,
ready, and working, doncha think?

--- harry gifford <hraymondg@yahoo.com> wrote:

> I appreciate the responses given, but no one has really answed the
> question. I, too, share the concern. Has any one heard from God
> on this? Does anyone know another interpretation of what the mark
> of the beast is, and one that means in Revelation? I am asking
> this from a faith concern vantage point and expect an answer from
> the same in return. I am gay and pentecostal, so this is an
> important thing for me. I have seen these articles, too and they
> have given me pause.
>
> Harry Gifford.
> www.godandgays.org
>
>
>
> Well I grew up AoG as many of you know. In the church I grew up
> they spoke of the mark being given and you should avoid taking
> anything in your body etc. Well the preacher said soon and in our
> life times they would have little devices that store our
> information, and without it one couldn't trade, get medical
> treatments or do anything else for that matter. Just like it said
> in Revelations.
>
> Well was that church right? I read this article this morning and it
> got my heart to racing. Silly or not it still scared me proper.
>
> http://news.yahoo.com/s/afp/20070626/hl_afp /usheal...
>
>
> ---------------------------------
> Need Mail bonding?
> Go to the Yahoo! Mail Q&A for great tips from Yahoo! Answers users.
>
>
>
>
>
> ---------------------------------
> Sick sense of humor? Visit Yahoo! TV's Comedy with an Edge to see
> what's on, when.

Pax Christi,
Ninure Saunders aka Rainbow Christian
My Blog
http://blog.myspace.com/rainbow_christian

===========================
"All truth passes through three stages: First, it is ridiculed; Second, it is violently opposed; Third, it is accepted as self-evident." -- Arthur Schopenhauer

__________________________________________________________
Don't get soaked. Take a quick peak at the forecast
with the Yahoo! Search weather shortcut.
http://tools.search.yahoo.com/shortcuts/#loc_weather

---

Fussy? Opinionated? Impossible to please? Perfect. Join Yahoo!'s user panel and lay it on us.

realism ? i guess this can only be a concern of a relative 'wealthy'
christians in well-organised countries where medical services are
easily available. maybe 1,000,000,000 out of the 6,000,000,000+ people
on earth today

i do not think it's going to be a worry for all the others who may
find it dam difficult to get any health services at all, irrespective
of whether or not they had a 'chip' inserted.

guess they may all settle for an occasional injection of some life
saving drug for their sick kids.

sounds like paranoid christianity to me.


kenni


--------------------------------------------------------------------

I appreciate the responses given, but no one has really answed the question.  I, too, share the concern.  Has any one heard from God on this?  Does anyone know another interpretation of what the mark of the beast is, and one that means in Revelation?  I am asking this from a faith concern vantage point and expect an answer from the same in return.  I am gay and pentecostal, so this is an important thing for me.  I have seen these articles, too and they have given me pause.

 

Harry Gifford.

www.godandgays.org

Well I grew up AoG as many of you know. In the church I grew up they spoke of the mark being given and you should avoid taking anything in your body etc. Well the preacher said soon and in our life times they would have little devices that store our information, and without it one couldn't trade, get medical treatments or do anything else for that matter. Just like it said in Revelations.

Well was that church right? I read this article this morning and it got my heart to racing. Silly or not it still scared me proper.

http://news.yahoo.com/s/afp/20070626/hl_afp /usheal...

---

Need Mail bonding?
Go to the Yahoo! Mail Q&A for great tips from Yahoo! Answers users.

---

Sick sense of humor? Visit Yahoo! TV's Comedy with an Edge to see what's on, when.

from the los angeles times


http://www.latimes.com/news/local/la-me-ex...l=la-home-local



QUOTE

3 former leaders of ex-gay ministry apologize

They cite psychological harm they caused gays as the ministry, Exodus
International, meets in Irvine.

By Rebecca Trounson, Times Staff Writer
June 28, 2007

Three former leaders of Exodus International, often described as the
nation's largest ex-gay ministry, publicly apologized Wednesday for
the harm they said their efforts had caused many gays and lesbians who
believed the group's message that sexual orientation could be changed
through prayer.

Speaking at a Hollywood news conference, the former leaders of the
interdenominational Christian organization said they had acted
sincerely in their years of work with Exodus. But they said they had
all, over time, become disillusioned with the group's ideas and
concerned about what they described as the wrenching human toll of
such gay conversion efforts.

The news event, in a courtyard outside an office of the Los Angeles
Gay & Lesbian Center, was timed to coincide with the opening of
Exodus' annual conference, which is being held this week at Concordia
University in Irvine. A competing "ex-gay survivor" convention is to
begin Friday at UC Irvine.

Exodus' president, Alan Chambers, reached by phone at the meeting in
Irvine, said he disagreed with its critics, adding that its methods
have helped many people, including him.

"Exodus is here for people who want an alternative to homosexuality,"
Chambers said. "There are thousands of people like me who have
overcome this. I think there's room for more than one opinion on this
subject, and giving people options isn't dangerous."

The former leaders from Exodus cast its work in grim terms.

"Some who heard our message were compelled to try to change an
integral part of themselves, bringing harm to themselves and their
families," the three, including former Exodus co-founder Michael
Bussee, said in a joint written statement presented at the news
conference. "Although we acted in good faith, we have since witnessed
the isolation, shame, fear and loss of faith that this message creates."

Now a licensed family therapist in Riverside, Bussee left Exodus in
1979 after he fell in love with a man who was a fellow ex-gay
counselor with the group. He speaks out frequently against ex-gay
therapies.

"God's love and forgiveness does indeed change people," said Bussee,
who remains an evangelical Christian. "It changed me. It just didn't
make me straight."

Others speaking at Wednesday's news conference included Jeremy Marks,
former president of Exodus International Europe, and Darlene Bogle,
the founder and former director of Paraklete Ministries, an Exodus
referral agency based in Hayward, Calif.

All three said they had known people who had tried to change their
sexual orientation with the help of the group but had failed, often
becoming depressed or even suicidal as a result.

"We are committed Christians, but we're still gay," said Marks, who
heads Courage UK, a gay-affirming evangelical ministry based in England.

Among those at the news conference was the Rev. Mel White, founder and
president of a faith-based gay rights group called Soulforce. White,
who was the ghostwriter for the Rev. Jerry Falwell's autobiography and
later came out as gay, praised the former Exodus leaders.

"It's a major moment, a paradigm shift," White said. "They're saying
this doesn't work, and that's incredibly important."

The Exodus meeting is expected to attract about 1,000 people, Chambers
said. Chambers, who is married and has children, said he and other
current Exodus officials are careful to warn those who seek help that
such a path is not easy.

Sexual orientation "isn't a light switch that you can switch on and
off," he said.

--

rebecca.trounson@...