I see similarities between Manannan and Nordic Freyr: They had sword, ship,
flying horse. Both have similarities to Indian Kubera, that also have a
ship, had three-legs (like Manannan or his Welsh counterpart Manawyddan),
and is linked to aerial "elfs", like Freyr (dwells in Ljosalfar), They seem
to be related to a brother or half-brother with opposite traits: Manannan is
brother of Bran, lord of underworld; Kubera is half-brother of Ravana, lord
of the subterranean Rakshasas, Freyr has no brother, but in Ragnarok will
fight Surtr ("the black"), or maybe the obscure Beli, poorly described in
Edda, but killed by him, fit this role. This "underworld" brother is linked
to subterranean "elfs", like rakshasas and svartalfar.

But a influence of *Apom Nepo:ts or this "Uncle Lake" is also striking.

Maybe the *Apom Nepo:ts was born in this Lake, begot by a group of water
nymphs (like Heimdallr or Skanda, also traits in Dionysos and He:phaistos).

Roman, Irish and Persian legends shows a clear picture of Primordial Lake,
maculated by some invader, giving rise to a Flood that generated all rivers
of the world. The *Apom Nepo:t lived in the deep of this lake, golden,
shining and blazing, surroundend by nymphic helpers. Perhaps the Arthurian
Lady  of the Lake was a Medieval descendant of these myths.

Joao SL
----- Original Message -----
From: Ken Pfrenger <kenpfrenger@...>
To: <PIEreligion@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Monday, March 10, 2003 10:57 AM
Subject: Re: [PIEreligion] Re: So what do we all agree on?+Mimir


>
>
> mrcaws wrote:
>
> > --- In PIEreligion@yahoogroups.com, João Simões Lopes Filho
> > <jodan99@u...> wrote:
> > > The idea of a guardian of subterranean waters is interesting, and I
> > agreee
> > > with the likeness of Mimir being an analogous to *Apom Nepo:t.
> > > I think that the Sky-Father had a brother, and he was a god of the
> > > primordial lake (cf. Ouranos and Pontos, perhaps Zeus and Poseidon,
> > Vyasa
> > > and Bhishma). This "Lake-God" have no children, and was a kind
> > of "Uncle" of
> > > the Gods.
> > >
> > > Joao SL
> >
> > Yes, also what about Manannan Mac Lir? He also was a foster father to
> > many of the gods. I remember Lugh went to live with him in
> > subterreanean waters, where Mannanan trained him in the magical arts.
> > This seems to correspond with *Akwom Nepot's role as provider of
> > knowledge/power to the appropriate hero figure.  Doesn't his name
> > also mean "Son of the sea"?-This name seems similar to *Akwom Nepot.
> >
> > Cort Williams
>
> Mannanan always struck me as being apart from the rest of the Irish
> pantheon...at least in origin anyway but I do get the connections between
him
> and Akwom Nepot. His name definitely means Mannanan son of the sea and he
> does have that whole foster father almost uncle thing going for him.
>
> I am going to have to dig into the lore about him a bit deeper.
>
> Slán
> Ken
>
>
> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
> PIEreligion-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
>
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>

What is the etymology of Greek Seire:n?
What is the oldest depiction of their? Bird-women, Bee-women or fish-women ?
Homerus didnt describe their physical apparence. They were described as two
beautiful girls.

The same can be said about the Graiai. They were "beautiful-faced swan-maidens",
but also had "only one eye and only one tooth". It is a contradition, isn'nt it?


Joao SL


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Could Apam Napat and Trita Aptya be the same deity?


Joao SL


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

--- In PIEreligion@yahoogroups.com, João Simões Lopes Filho
<jodan99@u...> wrote:
> Could Apam Napat and Trita Aptya be the same deity?
>
>
> Joao SL
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]


I could see that, since they are both connected with waters and wells-
For instance the story where Trita falls in a well, and either the
asuras or his brothers obstruct the exit. Trita meditates to the gods
and the waters in the well rise up and burst through the blockage.

I also remember a story where Trita's cattle get stolen.  Either
Trita or Indra slays the dragon and get them back. The cattle-
stealing myth has parallels in Greek (Hermes+Apollo), Roman
(Heracles+Cacus), and possibly Slavic myth(Perun+Veles)-Anyone know
of other instances of this?

Cort Williams

--- In PIEreligion@yahoogroups.com, João Simões Lopes Filho
<jodan99@u...> wrote:
> What is the etymology of Greek Seire:n?
> What is the oldest depiction of their? Bird-women, Bee-women or
fish-women ?
> Homerus didnt describe their physical apparence. They were
described as two beautiful girls.
>
> The same can be said about the Graiai. They were "beautiful-faced
swan-maidens", but also had "only one eye and only one tooth". It is
a contradition, isn'nt it?
>
>
> Joao SL

I don't know if this is a later borrowing, but there are the Slavic
Sirins, described as either water spirits or as birds with the heads
of women.

Cort Williams

mrcaws wrote:

> --- In PIEreligion@yahoogroups.com, João Simões Lopes Filho
> <jodan99@u...> wrote:
> > Could Apam Napat and Trita Aptya be the same deity?
> >
> >
> > Joao SL
> >
> >
> > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
> I could see that, since they are both connected with waters and wells-
> For instance the story where Trita falls in a well, and either the
> asuras or his brothers obstruct the exit. Trita meditates to the gods
> and the waters in the well rise up and burst through the blockage.
>
> I also remember a story where Trita's cattle get stolen.  Either
> Trita or Indra slays the dragon and get them back. The cattle-
> stealing myth has parallels in Greek (Hermes+Apollo), Roman
> (Heracles+Cacus), and possibly Slavic myth(Perun+Veles)-Anyone know
> of other instances of this?
>
> Cort Williams

Norse myth with Thor and Thrivaldi?

Slán
Ken

My point is that is possible that Trita and Apam Napa:t can be the same
deity, that is *Tritos = *Apom Nepo:t. A deity linked to waters, a well or a
lake. He helped the Stormbringer *PerkWunos to kill a Three-headed monster.

Other alternative view is that Apam Napat was the same Vishnu/Vidarr. Vishnu
is a deity that live in the water, in one of his many aspects.
Joao SL
Rio
----- Original Message -----
From: Ken Pfrenger <kenpfrenger@...>
To: <PIEreligion@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Monday, March 17, 2003 10:39 PM
Subject: Re: [PIEreligion] Re: Apam Napat and Trita Aptya


>
>
> mrcaws wrote:
>
> > --- In PIEreligion@yahoogroups.com, João Simões Lopes Filho
> > <jodan99@u...> wrote:
> > > Could Apam Napat and Trita Aptya be the same deity?
> > >
> > >
> > > Joao SL
> > >
> > >
> > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> >
> > I could see that, since they are both connected with waters and wells-
> > For instance the story where Trita falls in a well, and either the
> > asuras or his brothers obstruct the exit. Trita meditates to the gods
> > and the waters in the well rise up and burst through the blockage.
> >
> > I also remember a story where Trita's cattle get stolen.  Either
> > Trita or Indra slays the dragon and get them back. The cattle-
> > stealing myth has parallels in Greek (Hermes+Apollo), Roman
> > (Heracles+Cacus), and possibly Slavic myth(Perun+Veles)-Anyone know
> > of other instances of this?
> >
> > Cort Williams
>
> Norse myth with Thor and Thrivaldi?
>
> Slán
> Ken
>
>
>
> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
> PIEreligion-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
>
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>

--- In PIEreligion@0yahoogroups.com, João Simões Lopes Filho
<jodan99@u...> wrote:
> My point is that is possible that Trita and Apam Napa:t can be the
same
> deity, that is *Tritos = *Apom Nepo:t. A deity linked to waters, a
well or a
> lake. He helped the Stormbringer *PerkWunos to kill a Three-headed
monster.
>
> Other alternative view is that Apam Napat was the same
Vishnu/Vidarr. Vishnu
> is a deity that live in the water, in one of his many aspects.
> Joao SL
> Rio

I lean towards your first option: that Apam Napat/Trita are likely
versions of the same deity. There are too many similarities to ignore.

Cort Williams

The following is a statement by Vamadeva Sastri (of the American Institute
of Vedic Studies) on the question of whether Apam Napat and Trita Aptya are
the same deity.

Also perhaps of interest, in the "Dictionary of Roman Religion" by Adkins
and Adkins, there is mention of a Celtic Goddess named Apadeva, translated
in the dictionary as "goddess of the waters", who is named in an inscription
from Roman-occupied Gaul. (NB. the Dictionary is a reference work concerning
religion throughout Roman imperial territory, including both the Romans
themselves, and their subject peoples.)

~Belenios

>There are some differences. Trita Aptya is often a Rishi and is connected
>to
>Indra and Agni. Apam Napat or the offspring of the Waters is generally a
>deity and a form of Agni at a celestial level, being his electrical form
>that
>works in the waters (which are often the waters of space). But the two are
>related in that Trita is also born of the waters. One could therefore argue
>some connection, but probably not identity.



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I looked in the Dictionary of Roman Religion by Adkins and Adkins and found
that the entry for Apadeva does NOT give a direct translation of the name,
it identifies Her as "a Celtic water goddess". My apologies for the error.

~Belenios/Mark



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What are the translations of names of Pierides, women that was turned into birds
by the Muses ???

Kolymbe - grebe (Podiceps)
Jygx - wryneck, species of woodpecker
Kenkhreis - species of hawk
Kissa - magpie
Khloris - "fig-eater"
Akalanthis - goldfinch
Nessa - duck
Pipo: - dove
Drakontis - dragon-pigeon ?

Joao SL



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

B A wrote:

> The following is a statement by Vamadeva Sastri (of the American Institute
> of Vedic Studies) on the question of whether Apam Napat and Trita Aptya are
> the same deity.
>
> Also perhaps of interest, in the "Dictionary of Roman Religion" by Adkins
> and Adkins, there is mention of a Celtic Goddess named Apadeva, translated
> in the dictionary as "goddess of the waters", who is named in an inscription
> from Roman-occupied Gaul. (NB. the Dictionary is a reference work concerning
> religion throughout Roman imperial territory, including both the Romans
> themselves, and their subject peoples.)
>
> ~Belenios
>
> >There are some differences. Trita Aptya is often a Rishi and is connected
> >to
> >Indra and Agni. Apam Napat or the offspring of the Waters is generally a
> >deity and a form of Agni at a celestial level, being his electrical form
> >that
> >works in the waters (which are often the waters of space). But the two are
> >related in that Trita is also born of the waters. One could therefore argue
> >some connection, but probably not identity.

So Agni and Apam Napat are considered to be two faces of the same diety in
Modern Hinduism?

So can we see the PIE form of *Akwom Nepot as a cognate of Agni? or is there a
PIE for of Agni that I do not know about? I have seen some mention of fire in
water that really seems a bit confusing but I think I get the basic idea....this
theory seems to place Agni and his fire with the Relative of the water...or am I
seeing something that is not there?

Slán
Ken

[forwarded from Vamadeva Sastri]
> > >There are some differences. Trita Aptya is often a Rishi and is
>connected
> > >to
> > >Indra and Agni. Apam Napat or the offspring of the Waters is generally
>a
> > >deity and a form of Agni at a celestial level, being his electrical
>form
> > >that
> > >works in the waters (which are often the waters of space). But the two
>are
> > >related in that Trita is also born of the waters. One could therefore
>argue
> > >some connection, but probably not identity.

Ken Pfrenger responded:
>So Agni and Apam Napat are considered to be two faces of the same diety in
>Modern Hinduism?

I do not think that in this case, Vamadeva is expressing teachings of
"modern Hinduism" (which has no one creed or set of doctrines), per se. He
is a scholar of the Vedas (and of Vedic Sanskrit), with the credentials of
being named a "Vedacharya" and "Pandita", and of early Indian history, among
many other things. His comment is his understanding or interpretation of
what is said in the Vedas, which he studies in the original language.

>So can we see the PIE form of *Akwom Nepot as a cognate of Agni? or is
>there a
>PIE for of Agni that I do not know about? I have seen some mention of fire
>in
>water that really seems a bit confusing but I think I get the basic
>idea....this
>theory seems to place Agni and his fire with the Relative of the water...or
>am I
>seeing something that is not there?

In the Vedas, there are many places wherein various deities are in one way
or another identified with each other in this way. Agni, a rather major God,
is identified with others in this way. I don't think that "cognate" is quite
the right concept for this kind of identity. He seems to be saying that they
are mentioned in the Vedas as different manifestations of the same deity.
So, they are attributed as having some fundamental identity, but are
different, non-interchangeable, manifestations. Perhaps a conceptual analogy
could be made with the explanations for the simultaneous identity and
difference of "Father, Son and Holy Spirit" among Trinitarian Christians.

The main point is that Vamadeva does not think that the Vedic texts indicate
any such identity between Apam Napat and Trita Aptya. He points out first
that Apam Napat is clearly a deity whereas Trita Aptya is a human seer.

However, for both identity questions (Trita Aptya/Apam Napat, and Agni/Apam
Napat), what is expressed in the Vedas may or may not reflect a PIE view...
it must be compared and contrasted with what other early IE
traditions/literature have to say about the analogous personalities.

Making things more interesting, in the Upanishads, as well as later texts,
there is a difference between Agni-God-of-the-Sacrificial-Fire, and
Agni-as-Brahman. In some Upanisads, particular configurations of the fire
altar are said to manifest that latter. I found that in either Kathopanisad
or Kenopanisad. The Vedanta-sutra includes a section devoted to proving the
identity of Brahman with Vaisvanara, which is a name of Agni.

Hope this helps.

~Belenios

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Additional info from Vamadeva:

>Ken Pfrenger responded:
> >So Agni and Apam Napat are considered to be two faces of the same diety
>in
> >Modern Hinduism?
>
>Apam Napat does not occur in modern Hinduism, but is an ancient Vedic
>deity.
>Agni is the main deity. Apam Napat is more a secondary form connected to
>Agni
>but to other deities as well.
>
> > >So can we see the PIE form of *Akwom Nepot as a cognate of Agni? or is
> > >there a
> > >PIE for of Agni that I do not know about? I have seen some mention of
>fire
> >
> > >in
> > >water that really seems a bit confusing but I think I get the basic
> > >idea....this
> > >theory seems to place Agni and his fire with the Relative of the
> > water...or
> > >am I
> > >seeing something that is not there?
>
>The fire in the water is the life or bioelectrical fire. At a deeper level,
>it is the pranic fire that exists in the waters of space.
>
>Trita also occurs in Avestan literature but more as connected with Indra
>(who
>as the atmopheric deity is connected with the electrical force as well).
>
>Even in the Rig Veda, Agni has many forms of which the highest is the
>universal or Vaishvanara fire that is also the Self or Atman that dwells in
>the heart.
>
>Hari OM!
>Vamadeva


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> >Also am I detected a thread where knowledge is obtained from the outsiders
> >whether they be serpents/giants or whatever?

  The rather ambivalent relationship with the Outsiders is an interesting one.
  Heroes, for instance, are frequently either half-Outsider (such as Lugh) or
closely related to them (such as Indra).  Bauschatz makes the point (The Well
and the Tree) that the well bears the wisdom of the past, so perhaps that is
relevant.  There is also in Greece the rivers of forgetting and remembering
from which the dead might drink.

>>
> Norse World Tree Yggdrasil rots gnawed by serpents
> Irish hazel with the nuts falling into the water surrounding it, salmon
> swiming
> around the base of the tree.
> The Cosmic pillar of Zoroastrian (ism? Sorry I am still learning...but
> eager
> none the less)

    Yes to all of these.  In Zoroastrian cosmology, there is a mountain which
is the axis mundi.  From it streams waters which go through all the worlds
and then back to the surrounding sea, from which they had originally arisen.


> The Lotus witht he serpent at the roots and the Banyan tree mentioned above.
> Mt Olympus?
> Anything else?


    I agree on Mt. Olympus, and suggest that Delphi be seen as that which
reaches down to and up from the Underworld.  There is also a scene in The
Odyssey in which a sacrifice takes place by a spring underneath a plane tree
that I think is suggestive.


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

In a message dated 3/17/2003 10:53:50 PM Eastern Standard Time,
jodan99@... writes:


> My point is that is possible that Trita and Apam Napa:t can be the same
> deity, that is *Tritos = *Apom Nepo:t. A deity linked to waters, a well or
> a
> lake. He helped the Stormbringer *PerkWunos to kill a Three-headed monster.
>

    Trita seems to be a double of Indra, and his story is a perfect example of
"Triple kills Triple."  I would therefore see him as a human reflection of
Indra rather than being associated with Akwam Nepot.

Ceisiwr Serith


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Ceisiwr wrote:

>    Trita seems to be a double of Indra, and his story is a perfect example
>of
>"Triple kills Triple."  I would therefore see him as a human reflection of
>Indra rather than being associated with Akwam Nepot.

Could you elaborate on this?

~Belenios

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Python can be the serpent of Underworld (<*bHudH- "bottom"), an equivalent
of Ahi Budhnya and Nidhoeggr.

Joao SL
----- Original Message -----
From: <CeiSerith@...>
To: <PIEreligion@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Tuesday, March 25, 2003 6:38 PM
Subject: Re: [PIEreligion] world tree etc


> > >Also am I detected a thread where knowledge is obtained from the
outsiders
> > >whether they be serpents/giants or whatever?
>
>  The rather ambivalent relationship with the Outsiders is an interesting
one.
>  Heroes, for instance, are frequently either half-Outsider (such as Lugh)
or
> closely related to them (such as Indra).  Bauschatz makes the point (The
Well
> and the Tree) that the well bears the wisdom of the past, so perhaps that
is
> relevant.  There is also in Greece the rivers of forgetting and
remembering
> from which the dead might drink.
>
> >>
> > Norse World Tree Yggdrasil rots gnawed by serpents
> > Irish hazel with the nuts falling into the water surrounding it, salmon
> > swiming
> > around the base of the tree.
> > The Cosmic pillar of Zoroastrian (ism? Sorry I am still learning...but
> > eager
> > none the less)
>
>    Yes to all of these.  In Zoroastrian cosmology, there is a mountain
which
> is the axis mundi.  From it streams waters which go through all the worlds
> and then back to the surrounding sea, from which they had originally
arisen.
>
>
> > The Lotus witht he serpent at the roots and the Banyan tree mentioned
above.
> > Mt Olympus?
> > Anything else?
>
>
>    I agree on Mt. Olympus, and suggest that Delphi be seen as that which
> reaches down to and up from the Underworld.  There is also a scene in The
> Odyssey in which a sacrifice takes place by a spring underneath a plane
tree
> that I think is suggestive.
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
>
> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
> PIEreligion-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
>
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>

In a message dated 3/25/2003 9:58:18 PM Eastern Standard Time,
jodan99@... writes:


> Python can be the serpent of Underworld (<*bHudH- "bottom"), an equivalent
> of Ahi Budhnya and Nidhoeggr.
>

    Great.  According to the American Heritage Dictionary, "python" <
*dheub(h)-, but it goes on to say "*dhu8b(h)-n- and *b(h)ud(h)-n- ... already
in Indo-European were doublets by inversion, referring to "bottom,"
"foundation," "depths," and the mythological monsters that inhabited them."
Thanks for pointing this out.

Ceisiwr Serith



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Well, relation between Python (bHud(H) "bottom")  and Typhon (dHubH- "dark")
it's not impossible. One of the Arabian words for "snake" is thuban : link
to Typhon?

Joao SL
----- Original Message -----
From: <CeiSerith@...>
To: <PIEreligion@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Wednesday, March 26, 2003 2:44 AM
Subject: Re: [PIEreligion] world tree etc


> In a message dated 3/25/2003 9:58:18 PM Eastern Standard Time,
> jodan99@... writes:
>
>
> > Python can be the serpent of Underworld (<*bHudH- "bottom"), an
equivalent
> > of Ahi Budhnya and Nidhoeggr.
> >
>
>    Great.  According to the American Heritage Dictionary, "python" <
> *dheub(h)-, but it goes on to say "*dhu8b(h)-n- and *b(h)ud(h)-n- ...
already
> in Indo-European were doublets by inversion, referring to "bottom,"
> "foundation," "depths," and the mythological monsters that inhabited
them."
> Thanks for pointing this out.
>
> Ceisiwr Serith
>
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
>
> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
> PIEreligion-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
>
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>

Thanks for clearing this up for me in your posts and those by Vamadeva. It
actually makes sense to me now:-)

Slán
Ken

B A wrote:

> Additional info from Vamadeva:
>
> >Ken Pfrenger responded:
> > >So Agni and Apam Napat are considered to be two faces of the same diety
> >in
> > >Modern Hinduism?
> >
> >Apam Napat does not occur in modern Hinduism, but is an ancient Vedic
> >deity.
> >Agni is the main deity. Apam Napat is more a secondary form connected to
> >Agni
> >but to other deities as well.
> >
> > > >So can we see the PIE form of *Akwom Nepot as a cognate of Agni? or is
> > > >there a
> > > >PIE for of Agni that I do not know about? I have seen some mention of
> >fire
> > >
> > > >in
> > > >water that really seems a bit confusing but I think I get the basic
> > > >idea....this
> > > >theory seems to place Agni and his fire with the Relative of the
> > > water...or
> > > >am I
> > > >seeing something that is not there?
> >
> >The fire in the water is the life or bioelectrical fire. At a deeper level,
> >it is the pranic fire that exists in the waters of space.
> >
> >Trita also occurs in Avestan literature but more as connected with Indra
> >(who
> >as the atmopheric deity is connected with the electrical force as well).
> >
> >Even in the Rig Veda, Agni has many forms of which the highest is the
> >universal or Vaishvanara fire that is also the Self or Atman that dwells in
> >the heart.
> >
> >Hari OM!
> >Vamadeva

On the subject of Mannanan and Nechtan and wells. Still unsure about Mannanans
origins...I would like to hear some theories on it but I dug around abit and was
reminded of Cormacs travels where he encountered the Well and Hazel trees:

"Then he went on to where there was another dun, very large and royal, and
another
wall of bronze around it, and four houses within it. And he went in and saw a
great king’s house, having beams of bronze and walls of silver, and its thatch
of
the wings of white birds. And then he saw on the green a shining well, and five
streams flowing from it, and the armies drinking water in turn, and the nine
lasting purple hazels of Buan growing over it. And they were dropping their nuts
into the water, and the five salmon would catch them and send their husks
floating
down the streams. And the sound of the flowing of those streams is sweeter than
any music that men sing."

<<major snip>>

"And the well you saw is the Well of Knowledge, and the streams are the five
streams through which all knowledge goes. And no one will have knowledge who
does
not drink a draught out of the well itself or out of the streams. And the people
of many arts are those who drink from them all."

This well was in or near the palace of Mannanan...is he just a later version of
Nechtan or another face of the Well god?

Slán
Ken

Here's an interesting variant in Irish legendry:

Not long was the brave youth, Niall from the strongholds of Tara, when the
noble lad espied the well of flowing, cool water.  Five tall, beautiful
yew-tres of equal height with spreading branches, where a host might shelter,
stood above the icy-watered pool.  Pretty showers of round, purplish, hard
berries dropped through
the dense green foliage into the attractive, unusual well.  A pillar-stone
stood on the bottom of the steady-waterd spring that vied with the sun in
brilliance; the bright-surfaced, smooth stone lit up the deep water.  From
its top issued, never ceasing, never diminishing, a jet of water which fell
in a foamy, bright, gentle arch into the well.  Hither and thither swam a
multitude of salmon; all about the pool, reaching to the bottom, were they,
gliding in under the chill, clear spout, around the roots of the regal yews.
Niall...thrust <the cup> into the clear, cool, sparkling water, thronged to
sandy bottom with salmon.  There arose out of the pool a hag, wilde in mien
and rough of voice..."I am the Sovereignty, O modest Niall, and the
lightsome, sandy well is the Isle of Fodhla of the bright strems.  The five
great yews are the five rugged provinces, and their <332> berries are the
booties of the mighty, vigorous kings.  The shining, unyielding pillar is
Uisneach, the mid-point of Ireland, and the pretty, flowing spring is the
wedding-feast of green-flanked
Tara.  Sipping it are the kings of Ireland:  the mighty host of salmon; as
they drink of the bright, rare, flowing water, so shall the kings sup the
feast of the dwellings of Tara.  --Anonymous poem, c. 1200, from The Book of
I Mhaine.  In Breatnach, R. A.  The Lady and the King:  A Theme of Irish
Literature.  Studies    42 (1953), pp. 321 - 336.

    What is particularly interesting about this is that it combines the tree
dropping berries with the stone from the top of which water flows.  The
latter is paralleled in Zoroastrianism:

23. 'Whether thou, O holy Rashnu! art on the Hara Berezaiti, the bright
mountain around which the many (stars) revolve, where come neither night nor
darkness, no cold wind and no hot wind, no deathful sickness, no uncleanness
made by the Daevas, and the clouds cannot reach up unto the Haraiti Bareza;
we invoke, we bless Rashnu. I invoke his friendship towards this var
prepared....
24. 'Whether thou, O holy Rashnu! art upon the highest Hukairya, of the deep
precipices, made of gold, where from this river of mine, Ardvi Sura Anahita,
leaps from a thousand times the height of a man, we invoke, we bless Rashnu,
the strong. I invoke his friendship towards this var prepared.... (Yasht 12)

    In Zoroastrianism we also find a tree as the axis mundi, and this is
described in the same text:

17. 'Whether thou, O holy Rashnu! art on the tree of the eagle, that stands
in the middle of the sea Vouru-Kasha, that is called the tree of good
remedies, the tree of powerful remedies, the tree of all remedies, and on
which rest the seeds of all plants; we invoke, we bless Rashnu, the strong. I
invoke his friendship towards this var prepared.... (Yasht 12)

    I find the presence of the eagle interesting in light of its presence in
the Norse mythology, and its connection with both mead and soma.
    Since among the Balts we find a tree on a mountain as axis mundi, and
among the Greeks there is Olympos, but in a sacrifice described in the
Odyssey a tree is important, I have to think that the PIEs saw the axis mundi
as either a tree or a mountain, without much caring about the difference.

Ceisiwr Serith


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

CeiSerith@... wrote:

>    Here's an interesting variant in Irish legendry:

<snip>

Thanks for posting that. It has been along time since I read that and really
only could
remember the sovereignty aspescts of the tale. It would have been years till I
ran across
it again and saw the world tree connection. It never really struck me that
Uisneach being
the center of Ireland could be considered the center of everything in the PIE
world. It is
amazing how much PIE studies have changed how I view material that I thought I
understood
completely before.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------

   I find the presence of the eagle interesting in light of its presence in  the
Norse
mythology, and its connection with both mead and soma.

What is this connection?

>    Since among the Balts we find a tree on a mountain as axis mundi, and
> among the Greeks there is Olympos, but in a sacrifice described in the
> Odyssey a tree is important, I have to think that the PIEs saw the axis mundi
> as either a tree or a mountain, without much caring about the difference.

Very interesting.....any clues on how the Slavs saw this concept?

Slán
Ken

What about domestic/household spirits in PIE religion?

Consider Slavic Domovoi, Roman Lares/Genius, Celtic brownies etc.
The domovoi and the genius in particular have some attributes in
common. Both the domovoi and the genius sometimes took the form of a
snake or an old man or ancestor, and were propitiated with offerings
in exchange for its goodwill.

Cort Williams

--- In PIEreligion@yahoogroups.com, "mrcaws" <MrCaws@h...> wrote:
> What about domestic/household spirits in PIE religion?
>
> Consider Slavic Domovoi, Roman Lares/Genius, Celtic brownies etc.
> The domovoi and the genius in particular have some attributes in
> common. Both the domovoi and the genius sometimes took the form of a
> snake or an old man or ancestor, and were propitiated with offerings
> in exchange for its goodwill.
>
> Cort Williams

That is interesting....I had never thought about it before. To me many
of these spirits seem connected more to the land than to the specific
cultures that live there.....but surely worth looking into.

Slán
Ken

I went to Youngstown State U's library the other day and discovered
the had the JIES...woo hoo I said to myself but unforunately my time
was limited but I did get to skim an article concerning the Great
battle in Greek myth compared to some of the others.

So do we see the great battle as part of PIE myth that we all agree
on? It seems to happen at the begining of the mythos except for
Ragnarok where it happens in the end before a rebirth.....Besides the
Battle in irish myth and Ragnarok in Norse just what other great
battles are known?

Slán
Ken

In a message dated 4/10/2003 12:09:46 PM Eastern Daylight Time,
kenpfrenger@... writes:


> > Consider Slavic Domovoi, Roman Lares/Genius, Celtic brownies etc.
> > The domovoi and the genius in particular have some attributes in
> > common. Both the domovoi and the genius sometimes took the form of a
> > snake or an old man or ancestor, and were propitiated with offerings
> > in exchange for its goodwill.
> >
> > Cort Williams
>
> That is interesting....I had never thought about it before. To me many
> of these spirits seem connected more to the land than to the specific
> cultures that live there.....but surely worth looking into.
>
    I have, I'm embarassed to say, not done enough research into this topic.
(Embarassed because I once wrote a book on practicing Paganism as a family,
which of course included a lot of home-based stuff.  I can only plead that
that was before I had learned to do decent research.)
    I'm not sure, however, that we can link all of these with the land rather
than the home.  It would make sense that the domestic cult would travel with
the IEs; witness the widespread hearth goddess cult.  However, it would also
make sense for fairly migratory intrusive IEs to pick up the house-related
cult of the settled substrate.  On the third hand, it is just the domestic
cult that has survived best the conversion to Christianity and other
non-Pagan religions, so it would seem to be very conservative, which argues
against instrusive IEs changing their own.  And one more vacillation, the
people who have preserved the domestic cult best can be described as third
function; does this mean simply that the growth of rationalism, which has
affected mainly the upper classes, destroyed traditional beliefs, or that it
was the third function people who most strongly held to the domestic cult in
the first place?  I think that the evidence from pre-Christian times in Rome,
Greece, and India argues against the latter, however.
    This is a very interesting area of speculation.  I know that a lot of
general folkore work has been done on it, but I don't recall seeing anything
specifically on IE domestic cult, except for the fire.

Ceisiwr Serith


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

In a message dated 4/10/2003 12:25:33 PM Eastern Daylight Time,
kenpfrenger@... writes:


> I went to Youngstown State U's library the other day and discovered
> the had the JIES...woo hoo I said to myself but unforunately my time
> was limited but I did get to skim an article concerning the Great
> battle in Greek myth compared to some of the others.

    The photocopier is your friend.  I have stacks and stacks of photocopied
articles; I've been able to find every volume of the JIES (even though I had
to go to three libraries to do it), and now I subscribe.  I highly recommend
subscribing; even if there turns out to be only one article you're interested
in it's worth it.  And you never know what articles will be important.  I
read them all just in case there's something hidden in them.  Once I was
reading on on Lithuanian linguistics, primarily out of duty, and I discovered
how to form the PIE passive.  The Institute for the Study of Man, which puts
out the JIES, also puts out monographs, which include collections of papers
from conferences on IE topics.  If you subscribe to the journal you get a
discount on the monographs.  As a result, if you plan on buying two or more
of the monographs, it's actually cheaper to subscribe to the journal as well.

> So do we see the great battle as part of PIE myth that we all agree
> on? It seems to happen at the begining of the mythos except for
> Ragnarok where it happens in the end before a rebirth.....Besides the
> Battle in irish myth and Ragnarok in Norse just what other great
> battles are known?
>
>
    I've seen the battle suggested as both a creation myth and a destruction
myth.  The other battle I've most seen mentioned is the one in the Bhagavad
Gita (or the one in which the Bhagavad Gita takes place).  I think that the
battle between the gods and the Titans in Greece is sometimes compared, but
I'd have to do some digging.

Ceisiwr Serith


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

The Ash Tree In Indo-European Culture

Mankind Quarterly, Volume XXXII, Number 4, Summer 1992, pp. 323-336.

                             Darl J. Dumont

ABSTRACT:

Many species of Fraxinus, the ash tree, exude a sugary substance which the
ancient Greeks called méli, i.e. honey.  This substance was harvested
commercially until the early part of this century, and is found on Fraxinus
excelsior in northern Europe and Fraxinus ornus in the mountains of Greece.

This fact sheds light on certain themes in classical literature - the idea
of a golden age when men ate acorns and honey that dripped from trees, the
idea that bees collect honey from the leaves and branches of trees, and that
ash tree nymphs were nurses of the infant Zeus in the Cretan cave of Dicte.
(They fed him honey).  Also, a new etymology of the Greek word for ash tree
is proposed in light of these connections.

In Norse mythology certain details of the description of Yggdrasil, the
world ash, also can be explained by the sugary property of ash trees.  It is
felt to rain honey on the world, and mead is said to flow in its branches.

Again in Sanskrit literature certain beliefs are found which parallel the
Greek and Norse ideas, for instance that honey rains down upon the world
from the skies.  Certain things that are said about the divine intoxicant
soma seem to indicate a connection to ash trees, or rather a confused memory
of ash trees, since they do not grow in India except in the Himalayas.

In light of these parallels in the Indo-European literatures, it seems very
probable that sugar from ash trees played an important role in Indo-European
mythology and ritual.  A surviving Finno-Ugrian ritual, observed in 1911,
connects honey, tree resins, and tree worship in a way which must be similar
to ancient Indo-European ritual.

Ash Tree in Indo-European Culture(*)

The importance of the ash tree in Germanic Mythology is clear.  The world
ash, Yggdrasil, is central to the structure of the cosmos.  The first man,
Ask, ("Ash"), was formed from an ash tree found son the beach by Oðin and
his brothers, the sons of Bor.(1)  After Ragnarok, the race of mankind will
be restored from a man and woman who are somehow sheltered within the world
ash and nourished on dew.(2) But some scholars are not sure why the ash tree
should have this importance.  Ellis-Davidson among others has suggested that
the world ash may really have been an oak.(3)

In Greek Mythology also, ash trees have a prominence that has puzzled some
scholars. Hesychius in his lexicon contains this entry: melías karpós: tò
anthrópon génos. ("Seed of ash: the race of men"), and this idea is found
elsewhere in the literature.(4)  At the time when Ouranos was overthrown by
Kronos, the Giants, the Furies, and the nymphs called Meliai were formed.
(Hesiod, Theogony 187).  The word melíai means ash trees, but West in his
commentary says "they are tree nymphs, probably without distinction of the
particular kind of tree".(5)  At the next change of régime among the gods,
the Meliai were present again, in the cave of Dikte on Crete serving as
nurses of the infant Zeus.(6)  A. B. Cook wrote an article interpreting the
Meliai as honey nymphs or bee nymphs, never mentioning their standard
interpretation as ash tree nymphs at all.(7)

But ash trees have a property apparently not so well known to philologists
which may explain their prominence: They secrete a sugary substance from
their bark and leaves, which until the early part of this century was
harvested and sold under the name "manna".(8)  In the nineteenth century
this product was important as a pharmaceutical, and early editions of  The
Dispensatory of the United States of America devote substantial space to it:

MANNA... a concrete saccharine exudation of Fraxinus ornus and of Fraxinus
rotundifolia... Besides the two species of Fraxinus indicated by the
Pharmacopoeias, it is said to be obtained  from several other trees
belonging to the genera Ornus(9) and Fraxinus among which F. excelsior and
F. parvaflora have been particularly designated...It exudes spontaneously or
by incisions during the hottest and driest weather in July and August...It
is owing to the presence of true sugar and dextrin that manna is capable of
fermenting...Manna, when long kept, acquires a deeper color, softens, and
ultimately deliquesces into a liquid which on the addition of yeast,
undergoes the vinous fermentation.(10)

The Flora Europaea lists four species of Fraxinus native to Europe including
F. ornus and F. excelsior, which are explicitly named above as producing
manna.(11)  F. excelsior is the only species which grows in northern Europe,
and must have been the model for the world ash Yggdrasil.  It grows only as
far south as what the ancients called Macedonia.(12)  However F. ornus is
widespread in Greece, and the two remaining European species of ash are
found there also.(13)

LSJ defines melía as "manna ash, Fraxinus ornus".(14) Directly above lies
the entry for melí, "honey".  LSJ's third definition for méli is "sweet gum
collected from certain trees, manna".  In light of this juxtaposition it
seems odd that none of the standard etymological dictionaries consider, even
to dismiss in passing, that melía may be derived from méli, making the ash
tree a honey tree.(15)

"Ét. peu clair" says Chantraine.(16)  Frisk comments "Morphologisch und
etymologisch isoliert."(17) The common Indo-European word for ash, *os-
(from which our English word "ash" descends) was transferred to the beech
tree (oxúe) by the Greeks at some point in their migrations.(18)

Both Frisk and Chantraine cite without enthusiasm an ancestral form
originally proposed by Schulze in 1892: *smelwía.(19) Prellwitz in 1905
compared *smelwía. with the word smëlùs which is found in a dialect of
Lithuanian.  It means "brownish" or "grayish".(20) Page in 1959 commented
that in Homer, melíe lengthens a preceding short vowel in 11 of 13 places,
which he felt to be the memory of the lost sigma.(21) The compound eummelíes
"having a good ash spear", with its geminated -mm- must also be cited in
support of this idea.

However, Chantraine in his Homeric grammar discusses many cases where an
initial sonant (l and n  as well as m) geminates or lengthens a preceding
short vowel, including words which surely never had an initial sigma.(22)
Also the suffix -ía is very common among Greek plant names and these names
are almost always derivative from another Greek word.(23)

But whether or not ash trees and honey are related etymologically, the
connection in mythology is definite.  First it should be noted that
classical writers used a single word to describe three different substances:
honey made by bees, honeydew (which we now know is produced by aphids and
scale insects), and manna secreted by trees, and that these substances were
not necessarily felt to be different in nature.  Both the Greeks and the
Romans felt that bees' honey resulted from the bees' collection of the other
two substances.  The belief that honey first falls from the skies, and is
then collected by bees, not only from flowers, but also from tree leaves,
fields, etc. is well attested.  Aristotle says:

The honey is what falls from the air, especially at the risings of the stars
and when the rainbow descends. On the whole there is no honey before the
[morning] rising of the Pleiad... Honey [the bee] does not make, it fetches
what falls.(24)

Pliny the Elder speculates as to the source of this dew:

Honey comes out of the air, and is chiefly formed at the risings of the
stars, and especially when the dogstar itself shines forth, and not at all
before the risings of the Pleiades, in the periods just before dawn.
Consequently at that season at early dawn the leaves of trees are found
bedewed with honey and any persons who have been out under the morning sky
feel their clothes smeared with damp and their hair stuck together, whether
this is the perspiration of the sky, or a sort of saliva of the stars, or
the moisture of the air purging itself... Falling from so great a height,
and acquiring a great deal of dirt as it comes, and becoming stained with
the vapor of the earth that it encounters, and moreover having been sipped
from foliage and pastures and having been collected in the stomachs of
bees - for they throw it up out of their mouths, and in addition being
tainted by the juice of flowers, and soaked in the corruptions of the belly
and so often transformed,  nevertheless it brings with it the great pleasure
of its heavenly nature. (25)

These ancient beliefs, although they have been treated condescendingly by
classicists, are neither as untrue nor improbable as one might think at
first.  A modern scholarly work on honey contains the following:

Honeydew and manna are collected by bees;  in some coniferous forests
honeydew may provide the main honey flow, and a very prolific one... Honey
produced from honeydew is explicitly included in the definition for honey in
many countries...(26)

The ancients felt that honeydew spontaneously precipitated from the
atmosphere.  We ourselves have no trouble believing the same thing about
normal dews of water, so it was not unreasonable for the ancients to feel
that honeydew was similar in nature.  Honeydew was associated with the same
seasons as water dews.(27)

The truth about honeydew, that it is the excrement of aphids and scale
insects, would have seemed astonishing and bizarre.  This is from a modern
work on bee-keeping:

Honeydew... is often so abundant on the leaves of trees and bushes that it
drops upon the grass and sidewalks, covering them with a glistening coating
resembling varnish.  At times it falls in minute globules like rain... The
dew is forcibly ejected or flipped from the end of the abdomen, and when
there are many aphids it falls in a spray of minute globules.  If the dew
were not thrown a little distance from their bodies they would soon be glued
together... When freshly gathered it may be clear, sweet, and agreeable in
flavor... The better grades find a sale to bakers.(28)

There is no evidence in the literature that in historical times the Greeks
or Romans themselves depended on honeydew or manna as a source of
nutrition.(29) Beekeeping requires a settled way of life, but once
beekeeping is adopted, there is a large and reliable source of honey, and
the incentive to forage for the seasonal wild sugars is reduced.  The Greeks
and Romans were avid beekeepers - Solon made an ordinance that no man might
put a beehive within three hundred feet of his neighbor's (Plutarch, Solon
23. 6).

But the Greeks did note the consumption of manna and honeydew by their
barbarian neighbors - and they called these substances méli, or honey.
Aelian mentions honey from box trees in Pontus and reports of honey from
plants in Thrace.  He claims that there are rains of honey in the spring in
India (De natura animalium 5.42, 15.7).  Diodorus Siculus says that the
Nabateans ate "plenty of so-called honey from trees" (Bibliotheca Historica
19.94), probably the Biblical tamarisk manna.  Herodotus mentions the town
of Callatebus in Lydia, "where craftsmen make honey from wheat and
tamarisks" (Historiae 7.31).  Polyaenus describes the Persian king's daily
requisition of food, inscribed on a brass column.  It includes 100 cakes of
"raining honey" (úontos mélitos), weighing around ten minae (Strategemata
4.3.32).  Strabo tells of some extremely barbaric peoples on the eastern
side of Pontus who put bowls of "crazing honey" (mainoménou mélitos) in the
road, which they had made from tree twigs.  Some of Pompey's troops were
supposed to have drunk the mixture, and were driven out of their minds, and
so were easily slaughtered (Geographia 12.3.18).

To the north, the Germanic peoples had a unified theory of honey which
accounted for all its manifestations.  The Prose Edda contains a concise
account:  The world ash tree, Yggdrasil, has three roots.  One root lies in
the spring of Mimir, which gives wisdom and understanding.  Oðin himself
gave up one eye for a single drink from the mead of this spring.  Another
root lies in the spring of Urð, "which is so sacred that everything that
comes into the spring becomes as white as the film... that lies within the
eggshell".  Snorri quotes from the Völuspá in the Poetic Edda:

I know an ash-tree
known as Yggdrasil
a tall tree and sacred
besprent with white clay
thence comes the dews
that fall on the dales
it stands ever green
over Urð's spring.(30)

After which Snorri comments "The dew which falls from it to the earth is
called honey-dew by the men, and the bees feed on it."  Rydberg observed:

The flowers receive it in their chalices where the bees extract it, and thus
is produced the earthly honey which man uses and from which he brews his
mead.  Thus the latter too contains some of the strength of Mimer's and
Urd's fountains, and thus it happens that it is able to stimulate the mind
and inspire poetry and song - nay used with prudence it may suggest
excellent expedients in important emergencies.(31)

The white film of Urð's spring and the white clay of the ash tree have
puzzled scholars.  Ellis Davidson said:

It is said that the ash is sprinkled with aurr from the spring.  The meaning
of this word is uncertain, but DeVries(32) takes it to mean clear, shining,
water.(33)

It is clear enough that aurr is ash tree manna. In his Altnordisches
Etymologishes Wörterbuch, de Vries' himself makes the following comment:

Das wort wird auch gedeutet als 'glanz' und in diesem fall entweder aus
urgerm. *auzom 'glanz',  glänzende flüssigkeit, verwandt mit lat. aurum
'gold' ...oder entlehnt aus lat aurum.(34)

Thus the white clay is in some sense also "gold".  As Viktor Rydberg
observed a century ago:

Thus the world tree is among the Teutons, as it is among their kinsmen the
Iranians, a mead tree...(35)

We may now return to the ash trees' most important service in Greece, as
nurses of Zeus in the Diktean Cave on Crete.  Rhea contrived to hide the
infant Zeus from Kronos in this cave, and various stories are told about
arrangements within the cave. Callimachus says that the Diktean Meliai and
Adrastea took him into their arms, laid him in a cradle of gold, and gave
him honeycomb to eat and the udder of the she-goat Amalthea to suck.  It was
at this time that bees first began to appear in the surrounding mountains
(Hymnus in Jovem 47).  In Diodorus Siculus' version the nymphs mixed honey
and milk and also gave him Amalthea's udder.  The bees' reward for their
honey was their golden color and ability to withstand the cold of a mountain
climate (Bibliotheca Historica 5.70).  Apollodorus gives the nymphs' names
as Adrasteia and Ida, daughters of Melisseus (Bibliotheca 1.1.6).  Hyginus
mentions other stories, naming goats and nymphs who are said to have been
nurses of Zeus.(36)

Virgil says that the bees fed Jupiter in payment for the ability to make
honey (Georgics 4.150-152);  Later Jupiter ended the dripping of honey from
trees when he ordained labor for men (Georgics 1.131).

The universal presence of honey in these stories is not surprising:  Honey
was the first food given to Greek and Roman infants.(37) The presence of the
ash trees has been more troubling.  As was mentioned above, A. B. Cook wrote
a long article in which he discusses the nurses as melíssai, or bee nymphs,
and omitted all mention of ash trees.(38) However, if the Meliai are
considered to be both ash tree nymphs and honey nymphs due to their
production of manna and honeydew, the common elements of these stories make
considerably more sense.  And strong confirmation of this connection can be
found in recent folklore:  Apparently even as recently as the beginning of
this century, there were Germans who gave newborns honey from ash trees, and
Scottish highlanders who gave infants sap from the ash tree for their first
food.(39)

The goat Amalthea recalls the goat Heiðrun of Norse mythology, which bites
stalks off the branches of the world ash tree and then yields mead from its
udders into large jars for the enjoyment of those feasting in Valhalla.(40)
One can imagine an earlier version of the story in which the bees were
altogether absent, and the ash trees and goat by themselves were sufficient
to carry honey mead to Zeus.

The idea of honey raining from heaven onto the world is found in Indian
mythology also, and the divine intoxicant Soma is identified in the Vedas
with honey that falls from the skies.  The twin horsemen Avins have a honey
whip (madhurasa), which has been interpreted as lightning.  Rig Veda 1.157
is a prayer to them:  "Bedew our power with honey and with oil... sprinkle
us with your whip that drops honey-dew".(41)

Macdonnell said:

In both the Rig Veda and the Avesta it is stated that the stalks [of Soma]
were pressed, that the juice was yellow and mixed with milk;  in both it
grows in the mountains, and its mythical home is heaven, whence it comes
down to earth.(42)

...Soma is the branch of a ruddy tree (Rig Veda 10.94.3) .  ...The Soma
drops themselves are several times compared with rain (Rig Veda 9.41.3,
9.89.1, 9.106.9) and Soma is said to flow clearly with a stream of honey
like the rain-charged cloud (Rig Veda 9.2.9). ...The belief in an
intoxicating beverage the home of which is heaven, may be Indo-European.  If
so, it must have been regarded as a kind of honey mead (Skt. mádhu, Gk.
methu, As. medu) brought down to earth from its guardian demon by an eagle
(the Soma-bringing eagle of Indra agreeing with the nectar-bringing eagle of
Zeus and with the eagle which, as a metamorphosis of Odhinn, carried off the
mead).(43)

A huge volume of research has been published about Soma.  A large recent
bibliography appears in Haoma and Harmaline by D.S. Flattery and M.
Schwartz.(44) They argue that the Iranians in their haoma used a species of
Ephedra, the American species of which are sometimes called Mormon Tea. No
summary of the state of the debate is possible, but it appears that  no one
has considered the possibility that soma is the memory of a honey mead
beverage based on fermentable "honey" obtained from plants.  Ash tree manna,
as the Dispensatory of the United States of America noted, is fermentable,
and ash trees do grow in India, including Fraxinus excelsior (the species
familiar to the Germanic peoples), but only in the Himalayas above the
elevation of 1300 m.(45)

Furthermore, soma, like the ash tree, is connected with newborns both in
folk practice and in myth.  Among modern Parsis in Bombay, newborns are
still given a few drops of haoma (in the form of Ephedra) as a medicine of
longevity,(46) and in Rig Veda 3.32 we are informed that the first thing
Indra did after his birth was to drink soma with pleasure.  And there is an
element of intoxication in the stories of Zeus' infancy:  While Amalthea and
the ash tree nymphs nursed Zeus in the cave, the Curetes, a warrior band,
stood guard outside, drowning out the sound of Zeus' cries with their
tambourines, and dancing terrifying war dances.  They were in a state of
orgiastic possession.(47)

Calvert Watkins provided another link between soma and European customs in
an article published in 1977 which discussed the various mixtures of honey,
grains, spices, etc. which appear in Greek literature(48) and are still
drunk in modern Greece.(49) One famous example is in book 10 of the Odyssey
(lines 233-236) in which Circe mixed a drugged beverage that turned men into
swine.  Watkins notes strong parallels between the accounts of the Greek
beverages and the Soma ritual.  His conclusion is that there was "a single
Indo-European liturgical cultic practice" which gave rise to the Vedic and
the Indo-Iranian Soma ritual, to the act of communion of the Eleusinian
mysteries, and an archaic Greek warrior ritual by women for men, all
involving a mixed potion.

Those who have studied the history of mead have commented that the
fermentation of mead was unreliable, and that this may explain the origin of
these mixed beverages:

This is an ideal medium for the growth of many undesirable microorganisms,
which will multiply if not suppressed by yeast growth ( the opposite is true
of most ripe fruits, including grapes, whose surface is covered with yeast
cells.)  Excellent mead can be made without the addition of spices and
herbs, just as good meat is not in need of improvement.  The strength, as
well as the quantity, of many of the materials added in these old recipes -
either before or after fermentation - strongly suggests an attempt to mask a
poor or faulty product.(50)

One can imagine a migratory people, collecting honey, honey-dew, and sweet
tree resins (calling them all by the same name), fermenting them into a
frequently bad product, and throwing in aromatic herbs of every variety,
which varied in the course of migrations.  There is no reason that every
speculation about the hallucinogenic ingredients of soma ever made could not
have been true at some place and time. But it seems likely, if the mead of
the gods was thought to flow through the ash tree, that ash tree manna in
the Urheimat had a symbolic significance in establishing communion with the
gods, which after the Indo-Iranian peoples migrated into a tropical area far
from ash trees, was remembered only in a most confused manner.

An interesting confirmation is found in the rituals of a Finno-Ugric people
who were never converted from their heathen religion.  Ellis Davidson has
commented on the importance of Finno-Ugric mythology to the understanding of
Norse mythology, since there are marked resemblances between the two
systems, including the idea of a world tree.  In rituals, the Finno-Ugric
shamans would ascend the tree symbolically, passing in a state of ecstasy
through a series of heavens.(51)

The Cheremiss (or Mari), a Finno-Ugric people, were observed in 1913 by Uno
Holmberg.(52) Their homeland lies on the Volga river about 150 km. east of
the nearest ash trees.(53) The central tree of their ritual was the lime
tree.  (Lime tree here is in the older sense, still maintained in Britain,
of Linden tree).  The lime tree exudes sugary material in great quantity, as
is noted in a popular work on bees and honey:

As anyone who has a lime or sycamore in the garden will know, the sticky
honeydew generally becomes coated with a black unsightly mold, like soot, as
the summer advances... I have tasted pure honeydew "honeys" which looked
like axle-grease, but were palatable and in some cases excellent.(54) And it
was noted that, at least before the revolution, "in Russia a drink termed
lipez is made from the delicious honey of the linden."(55)

The following details of a Cherimiss ceremony in a sacred grove of lime
trees are sufficient to suggest a relationship to the ancient tradition
suggested by Calvert Watkins, in which women serve men a honey beverage:

To the right of the sacrifice tree, a little round pillar is also stuck in
the ground, and a little wooden bowl placed on it.  Into this a drink of
honey is poured, but judging by the name "resin-bowl" it must formerly have
contained resin... Before all this, white cloths are spread on the ground
bestrewed with lime branches, and on these rows, the sacrificial "butter and
milk" loaves are placed touching one another... Behind the loaves nine
wooden bowls are laid parallel with these.  Later a drink made of honey is
poured into them, the drink being prepared for the festival by young
maidens.(56)

This ritual, which connects trees, tree resins, and honey, may be added to
the literary evidence already cited, which has shown similar associations in
Greek,  Germanic, Vedic, and Avestan sources. The world tree for
Indo-Europeans was indeed a mead tree, and it rained celestial honey on the
world. The secretion of fermentable honey by the ash tree gave the
Indo-Europeans good reason for their particular attention to that tree, and
for their apparent belief that it was the nurse of gods and men.  The honey
in its perfect and original form which flowed through the tree provided the
food of the gods. Recall that Indra is celebrated for drinking great pools
of soma(57) , Oðin eats no food and drinks only "wine"(58), and the nectar
and ambrosia of the Olympian gods is often compared to honey.(59) Therefore
just as the world ash physically linked gods and men, its fermented resins
could provide communion between gods and men.

* I would like to thank Richard Janko of UCLA, Apostolos N. Athanassakis, D.
Barton Johnson, Borimir Jordan, and Robert Renehan of UCSB, and Egbert J.
Bakker of the University of Leiden for valuable suggestions and comments.

1J. I. Young, trans., The Prose Edda of Snorri Sturluson (University of
California Press, 1954), p. 37.

2Vafthrunismál 45;  J. I. Young, trans., Prose Edda p. 92; H. R. Ellis
Davidson, Gods and Myths of Northern Europe (Penguin, 1964) p. 38.

3H. R. Ellis Davidson, Gods and Myths of Northern Europe, p. 191.

4Palaephaetus 35;  sch. Theogony 187; sch.T Iliad 22.126; According to
Hesiod at Opera et Dies 145, the men of the bronze age were made of ash.

5M. L. West, Hesiod: Theogony (Oxford, 1966), p. 221.

6Callimachus, Hymnus in Jovem 47.  Other versions of this story will be
discussed below.

7A. B. Cook, "The bee in Greek mythology", JHS 15 (1895), pp. 1-24.

8Botanical works do not usually mention the exudations of plants in their
morphological descriptions.  However, gardeners are well aware of this
property -  a friend of mine who is a horticulturist in Southern California
says he never parks his cars under ash trees in hot weather.

9Modern botanical practice is to rejoin Ornus and Fraxinus into a single
genus Fraxinus. Ornus europaea is a synonym of Fraxinus ornus.

10G. Wood and E. Bache, The Dispensatory of the United States of America,
14th edition (Philadelphia:  Lippincott, 1878), pp. 572-575.  The substance
was used as a mild laxative.  Bees' honey is also a mild laxative, see
Encyclopedia Britannica, 11th edition, s.v. "honey".  Modern editions of the
Dispensatory simply discuss ash tree manna's active component "mannitol"
without mention of ash trees.

11Tutin, Heywood, et. al., Flora Europaea (Cambridge University Press,
1972), pp. 53-54.

12E. Huldén, "Studien über Fraxinus excelsior L.", in Acta Botanica Fennica
28 (Helsinki, 1941), map p. 230.

13O. Polunin, Flowers of Greece and the Balkans: a Field Guide (Oxford
University Press, 1978), pp. 363-364.

14Since Jones' revision in 1925, LSJ has defined melía as signifying only a
single species Fraxinus ornus, the manna ash. boumelía is defined as
Fraxinus excelsior.  This is in keeping with the general practice of the
revised dictionary to provide exactly one scientific name for every Greek
common name.  This practice is incorrect;  in this case it leaves two other
species of ash in Greece for which LSJ provides no Greek words.  Before
Jones, the definition in Liddell and Scott was merely "ash, Fraxinus", which
from Theophrastus' description of the compound leaves and other
characteristics of the plant is clearly correct.  Theophrastus describes
boumelios (which has an alternate form boumelía) as a kind of melía, not as
a different kind of tree.  He comments that some men, like those in
Macedonia, distinguish boumelía from melía, but this would seem to imply
that he does not do so himself.  The entry for "ash" in the eleventh edition
of the Encyclopedia Britannica mentions seven genera as being "ash trees",
and within the single genus Fraxinus, seven species are named. Common names
are of an entirely different nature from scientific names, and the ancient
Greeks should be allowed the same luxury of imprecision which is found in
modern lanugages.

15However P. J. Murr proposed this derivation in 1890 in Die Pflanzenwelt in
der Griechischen Mythologie (Groningen, Verlag Bouma's Boekhuis, reprinted
1969) p. 30.

16P. Chantraine, Dict. Étym., s.v melía.

17H. Frisk, GEW, p. 203, s. v. melía.

18Friedrich, Proto-Indo-European Trees (University of Chicago Press, 1970),
p. 96.  In fact oxúa / oxúe means both "beech tree" and "spear", just like
melía / melíe and askr mean both "ash tree" and "spear". Friedrich comments:
"The ash cognates illustrate well the relation between the name of a tree
and the products manufactured from its wood".

19W. Schulze, Quaestiones Epicae (1892, reprinted by George Olms,
Hildesheim, 1967), p. 118.

20W. Prellwitz, Etymologisches Wörterbuch der Griechischen Sprache,
(Göttingen: Vandenhoeck und Ruprecht, 1905).

21D. L. Page, History and the Homeric Iliad (University of California Press,
1959), p. 240.

22P. Chantraine, Grammaire Homérique, (Paris: Klincksieck, 1958), vol. 1, p.
176.

23A. Carnoy, Dictionnaire Étymologique des Noms Grecs des Plantes (Louvain:
Publications Universitaires, 1959).  This work contains many examples with
etymologies, for example: antikuría "hellebore" from anti + kúrios
"withstanding force", keraunía "sempervirum" from kéraunos "thunderbolt",
keratonía "carob tree" from keratón "made of horn", kokkugía "wig tree" from
kókkux "cuckoo".

24Aristotle, Historia Animalium 5.22, trans. A. L. Peck (Harvard University
Press [Loeb], 1970), vol. 2, p. 191.

25Pliny, Natural History 9.30, trans. H. Rackham (Harvard University Press
[Loeb], 1940), vol. 2, p. 450.

26E. Crane, ed., Honey:  A Comprehensive Survey ( New York: Crane, Russak,
and Co., 1975), p. 21.

27See the biblical version at Numbers 11:9.  Discussions of the biblical
manna may be found in R. Brown et al., The Jerome Biblical Commentary, vol.
1, pp. 55, 90. and B. Anderson, Understanding the Old Testament (Englewood
Cliffs:  Prentice-Hall, 1975) pp. 76-77.  It was excreted by scale insects
on Tamarisk trees. Bedouins still rely on this food source today.

28A. I. Root, The ABC and XYZ of Bee Culture (Medina, Ohio: A. I. Root Co.,
1980), p. 385.

29However, I have been told by A. N. Athanassakis that in Greece today there
is a sugary substance called zakharómelos which is gathered from fir trees
in the springtime.

30J. I. Young, trans., Prose Edda, pp. 42-46 (Gylfaginning 16).

31V. Rydberg, Teutonic Mythology, trans. by R. B. Anderson (London: Swann
Sonnenschein, 1889), p. 438;  cf. Tacitus, Germania 22.

32J. de Vries, Altgermanische Religiongeschichte (Berlin, 1957), II, p. 380.

33H. R. Ellis Davidson, Gods and Myths of Northern Europe, p. 195.  Aurr in
modern Icelandic means "mud, wet clay, loam".  See Alexander Jóhanneson,
Isländisches Etymologisches Wörterbuch, (Bern:  Franke Verlag, 1956), p.
140.  Jóhanneson derives aurr  from *uer- "wet";  cf. Calvert Watkins,
American Heritage Dictionary of Indo-European Roots (Boston: Houghton
Mifflin, 1985), p. 74, s. v. *wegw-.

34J. de Vries, Altnordisches Etymologisches Wörterbuch (Leiden: E. J. Brill,
1962) s. v. aurr, p. 20.

35Rydberg, Teutonic Mythology, p. 439.

36Hyginus, Fabulae 139, 182;  Astronomia 2.13.  See also G. H Bode, ed.,
Scriptores Rerum Mythicarum (Cellis: E. H. C. Schulze, 1834), 1.104, 2.16,
pp. 34, 79.

37Hermann Usener, "Milch und Honig", Rheinisches Museum 1902, pp. 177-195.
See especially footnote 20.

38A. B. Cook, "The bee in Greek mythology", JHS 15 (1895), PP. 1-24.

39Charles M. Skinner, Myths and Legends of Flowers, Trees, Fruits, and
Plants, Philadelphia: J. P. Lippincott, 1925), p. 54.

40J. I. Young, trans., Prose Edda, p. 64.;  L. M. Hollander, trans., The
Poetic Edda, Grimnismal 25, p. 58.

41R. Griffith, trans., The Hymns of the Rig Veda (Varanasi: Chowkhamba
Sanskrit Series Office, 1963).

42 A. A. Macdonnell, Vedic Reader (Madras:  Oxford University Press, 1917),
p. 154.

43A. A. Macdonnell, Vedic Mythology (Strassburg: Trübner, 1897), pp.
104-114.

44D. S. Flattery and M. Schwartz, Haoma and Harmaline, University of
California Publications:  Near Eastern Studies, vol. 2 (University of
California Press, 1989), pp. 153-172.

45J. D. Hooker, The Flora of British India (Brook, Kent: L. Reeve and Co.,
1882) vol. 3, pp. 605-606.

46S. Madhihassan, "Ephedra, the Oldest Medicinal Plant with the History of
an Uninterrupted Use", Ancient Science of Life, vol. 7 no. 2 (1987), pp.
105-109.  The author believes that Ephedra was the original soma, but notes
the apparent equivalence of Fraxinus excelsior in that both were the source
of a newborn's first food.

47Apollodorus, Bibliotheca 1.1.7;  Strabo, Geographia 10.3.10-11.

48C. Watkins, "Let us now praise famous grains", Proceedings of the American
Philosophical Society 122, pp. 9-17.

49A. N. Athanassakis, personal communication.

50R. A. Morse and K. H. Steinkraus, "Wines from the fermentation of honey",
in E. Crane, ed. Honey, p. 395.  The authors studied medieval recipes.

51H. R. Ellis Davidson, Gods and Myths of Northern Europe, p. 192.

52U. Holmberg, "Finno-Ugrian, Siberian mythology", in J. A. MacColloch, ed.,
The Mythology of All Races (Boston, Marshall Jones, 1927), vol. 4.

53Hulden, "Studien über F. excelsior", map p. 230; cf. Holmberg in
MacColloch, Mythology of All Races, map, p.1.

54D. More, The Bee Book (New York: Universe Books, 1976), p.73.

55Encyclopedia Britannica, 11th edition, s.v. "honey".

56Holmberg, pp. 266-267. It is possible that the observer didn't know the
origin of the "honey" in the resin bowls.

57Rig Veda 1.104.9, 6.17.11, 8.66.4, etc.

58J. I. Young, trans. Prose Edda, p. 66.

59C. Daremberg and E. Saglio, Dictionnaire des antiquités greques et
romaines (Paris, 1875), s.v. "ambrosia", "nectar", "mel".