On Sat, 02 Jan 2010 12:01:17 -0500, Ruth Olin <goodteanicehouse@...>
wrote:

>  obtaining mortgage and insurance is still problematic with strawbale.
> You need one that has been appraised, if not sold.

> We need to help each other in this area since so few owners of strawbale
> homes sell! If anyone has been appraised, please put your information on
> the California Registry so that we can gain a database to use with
> lenders.


Hmmpph! California. Phhht.

Wouldn't the International Strawbale Registry at

      http://greenbuilder.com/

be more useful to *everyone* ?

Me ? I got the (Sustainable Sources T-shirt), courtesy of Jeanine and Wild
Bill-bob, back in the days before they even contemplated the meaning of
"diapers".

--
=== * ===
Rob Tom
Kanata, Ontario, Canada
<A r c h i L o g i c  at  Y a h o o  dot  c a >
(manually winnow the chaff from my edress if you hit "Reply")
__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Tired of spam?  Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
http://mail.yahoo.com

--- In SB-r-us@yahoogroups.com, "kyounge1956" <karenyounge@...> wrote:
>
> The question is: what exterior finish is most likely to withstand the weather
in that area and give best protection to the bales with a minimum of maintenance
on my part?

> I have sworn off west-facing windows for the rest of my life.


> I am puzzled by your remark that a porch would be more enjoyable than metal
cladding.

Karen;

A few thoughts:

If the lime plaster is exposed to rain wetting, then it's not likely going to do
a very good job of keeping the bales dry.

A ventilated rainscreen cladding would IMO, be the best option.

Any material can be used for the rainscreen cladding and an earthen plaster to
encapsulate the bales first (ie to provide an air/insect/rodent/fire barrier and
provide a drainage plane) would suffice.


re: West-facing windows

I agree that west-facing windows do present problems WRT unwanted heat gain and
glare but to omit windows on the east and west elevations may limit the
opportunities for natural cross-ventilation.

I would suggest simply keeping glass area on those elevations to a minimum (ie
one small aperature on each floor level or make the openings opaque insulated
operable vents).


re: Metal cladding

The problem with metal cladding on sidewalls is that if there is any activity at
all around the house (ie kids, dogs, horses, inquisitive livestock, woozy humans
(especially drunken Australians in 4WD vehicles, gardeners with heavily-loaded
wheelbarrows etc) the metal cladding is likely to get banged-up,crunched,
scratched, ripped, punctured etc.

And if it's steel, once the protective coating is compromised, corrosion begins
and once corrosion begins it's like cancer ... difficult to get rid of. Aluminum
is softer and usually thinner and hence, more fragile than steel.

It can get pretty decrepit-looking in fairly short order.

If you cannot tolerate scratches/dents/crunches/tears etc on an automobile, then
it would probably not be advisable to put metal cladding on the sidewalls of
your building.

On the upside, if the cladding is agricultural/commercial panel type (ie
pre-formed from 3 ft wide sheet stock, typically installed with exposed
fasteners) then it is quick/easy to remove and replace and the banged-up panels
can be recycled.

=== * ===
Rob Tom
Kanata, Ontario, Canada
<A r c h i L o g i c  at  Y a h o o  dot  c a >
(manually winnow the chaff from my edress if you hit "Reply")

Always nice to see the "main streaming" of Straw bale as you say.

I'm just sorry to once again see that the straw work appears to be in-fill and
that none Appears to have been used on the second floor.  Perceptions based on
pictures isn't always accurate.
   I wish the main stream would get past their fears about straw not being
something to use as walls on a second floor...
Plus, I would enjoy it if straw were not just seen as 'good insulation';  it is
so much more flexible as we all know.

Oops, Sorry.  Compliment turned into a 'frustration' vent.
wishing you all a bountiful 2010........
mindfulhome_deb

--- In SB-r-us@yahoogroups.com, David Neeley <dbneeley@...> wrote:
>
> Straw bale continues to go mainstream. A brief article in the
> Christian Science Monitor about a bale home going up in Boise, Idaho:
>
>
<http://www.csmonitor.com/Environment/2009/1223/In-Idaho-a-house-made-from-straw\
-and-mud>
>
> David
>

I'm not planning to buy on the coast for purposes of avoiding maintenance, I
want to move there because it is beautiful, less expensive than here in town,
and almost never gets hotter than the low eighties. But having decided to move
there, I want to use materials that need less maintenance even in those more
demanding conditions. From what I know at this point (including some previous
experience), metal siding would require less upkeep than most other materials,
whether at the coast or further inland, with the possible exception of areas
exposed to actual ocean spray. But I can't afford to live right on the beach, so
I doubt that salt corrosion will be a factor for my house.

Karen

--- In SB-r-us@yahoogroups.com, Jimmie R Davis <jimrdavis@...> wrote:
>
>  From what I have heard if you don't want to have to do outside maintenance,
you don't want to buy on the coast.
>
Nadine
>
> At 12:21 AM 12/26/2009, you wrote:
> >
> >
> >Hi David,
> >(snip) My reason for using metal siding, even though strictly speaking it may
not be necessary, is to minimize exterior maintenance. (snip) I expect to live
long enough that I will eventually be unable to do it. I don't want to be forced
out of my house by inability to maintain it.
> >
> >Karen
> >--- In <mailto:SB-r-us%40yahoogroups.com>SB-r-us@yahoogroups.com, David
Neeley <dbneeley@> wrote:
> >>
> >> Karen,
> >> (snip) are you sure you need metal siding at all? Even then, it
> >> would be quite possible to use an exterior rain block--perhaps an arbor
with
> >> grapes or other vines, or possibly a relatively simple canvas awning on the
> >> side facing the direction of common winds. (snip)
> >>
> >> David
> >>
(snip tail)

The question is: what exterior finish is most likely to withstand the weather in
that area and give best protection to the bales with a minimum of maintenance on
my part? If the lifespan of lime plasters and/or amount of maintenance required
are mainly dependent on how well the job is done in the first place, that is one
more reason, IMO, to rule them out as the finish exposed to weather. I do not
have access to experienced, proficient lime-workers who know everything
necessary to put a two-generation finish on a house, I have access to myself to
do the work, and probably not even a knowledgeable advisor to consult in case I
run into problems. I don't even know where I would get lime plaster (though I
may need to find out if I can't acquire some clayey soil to use on the bales
behind the siding).

Is it truly your experience that lime plasters need less upkeep than metal
siding if both are equally exposed to weather? I would be extremely surprised to
learn that this is the case.

I am not planning four-to-six foot eaves all around. Four foot eaves would
nearly double the roof area, and with metal siding, I don't think I need them. A
porch, open or enclosed, is certainly a possibility, but whether open or
screened, it definitely won't be on the west side—more likely the south. I have
sworn off west-facing windows for the rest of my life. Both my current home and
my previous house had them, and even with our usually-mild summers up here, west
windows cause miserable overheating on our few hot days. If it turns out that
the windblown rain usually comes from the west (and I think you are probably
right about that) I would more likely put a carport or garage on that side,
which would give an even longer overhang and greater protection than a porch,
and keep even more of the sun off the west wall in the summertime than a porch
would.

I am puzzled by your remark that a porch would be more enjoyable than metal
cladding. I've lived in a house with metal siding and didn't find that it
detracted from my enjoyment of the house in any way I was aware of. In fact,
since I dislike mundane maintenance tasks, I think it increased my enjoyment,
because in the time I owned that house I never did a stroke of work on the
siding, not even to wash the dust off. When I sold the house after eleven years,
the siding was, as far as I could tell, in exactly the same state as when I
bought it. I drove by several years later, and all the new owners had done to it
was paint it a different color. And that was metal siding that had probably
already been in place for some time when I bought the house.  Besides, porches
and metal siding are not mutually exclusive. I can't think of any reason it
wouldn't be possible to have both on the same house.

Karen



--- In SB-r-us@yahoogroups.com, David Neeley <dbneeley@...> wrote:
>
> Karen,
>
> There are homes in Britain, where there is certainly plenty of rain, that
> have lime stucco that has been in place for hundreds of years, with
> maintenance every generation or two. It seems to depend mostly on how well
> the job was done to begin with, from what I understand.
>
> To think they need annual maintenance is, I believe, a misapprehension.
>
> Personally, I would think that a relatively simple and inexpensive porch on
> the windward side would be far more enjoyable than a metal cladding for the
> walls. By using sliding glass door panels, too, you could enclose it if you
> wish--either permanently or with removable panels. That would expand  your
> effective living space while completely protecting the walls on that side of
> the house.
>
> I presume the primary direction of wind-borne rain will be from the West. A
> glassed-in porch on that side would also help you in Winter by collecting
> what warmth there is in the afternoons to vent into the house proper, aiding
> your heating by a good measure.
>
> Obviously, the primary expense would lie in expanding the roof over the
> porch area--probably by four to six additional feet (I presume you are
> already planning wide eaves to protect the walls anyway).
>
> One home I helped plan had such a porch, and it was used among other things
> as a place to hang freshly washed clothing to dry during the Winter.
>
> David
>
> On Sat, Dec 26, 2009 at 10:21, kyounge1956 <karenyounge@...>wrote:
>
> >
> >
> > Hi David,
> > As I say, I keep talking myself out of bale wrap. I usually talk myself out
> > of it before I get to worrying about how to make openings in the cargo
> > container. Since I know even less about metalworking I do about carpentry, I
> > would probably talk myself out of it even if I lived in a desert region. But
> > if I *were* going to build a box & bale structure, I'd use my "two parallel
> > containers" idea, and put all the openings in the bale walls.
> >
> > I don't own any land yet (I will be paying for the bale house with money
> > from the sale of my current home) so I don't know how close to the coast I
> > will be. Actual beach front property is probably above my budget, but I may
> > well be close enough to get quite a lot of windblown rain. My reason for
> > using metal siding, even though strictly speaking it may not be necessary,
> > is to minimize exterior maintenance. From what I have read of lime plasters,
> > they need patching and renewal yearly or every other year, and I am simply
> > not willing to do it. Building a house with an exterior that requires that
> > much upkeep would be setting myself up to fail. Also, I hope to live in this
> > house for the rest of my life, and even if I were prepared to take on that
> > much maintenance now, I expect to live long enough that I will eventually be
> > unable to do it. I don't want to be forced out of my house by inability to
> > maintain it.
> >
> > Karen
> >
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>

From what I have heard if you don't want to have to do outside maintenance, you
don't want to buy on the coast.
                                                                                                    
Nadine

At 12:21 AM 12/26/2009, you wrote:
>
>
>Hi David,
>As I say, I keep talking myself out of bale wrap. I usually talk myself out of
it before I get to worrying about how to make openings in the cargo container.
Since I know even less about metalworking I do about carpentry, I would probably
talk myself out of it even if I lived in a desert region. But if I *were* going
to build a box & bale structure, I'd use my "two parallel containers" idea, and
put all the openings in the bale walls.
>
>I don't own any land yet (I will be paying for the bale house with money from
the sale of my current home) so I don't know how close to the coast I will be.
Actual beach front property is probably above my budget, but I may well be close
enough to get quite a lot of windblown rain. My reason for using metal siding,
even though strictly speaking it may not be necessary, is to minimize exterior
maintenance. From what I have read of lime plasters, they need patching and
renewal yearly or every other year, and I am simply not willing to do it.
Building a house with an exterior that requires that much upkeep would be
setting myself up to fail. Also, I hope to live in this house for the rest of my
life, and even if I were prepared to take on that much maintenance now, I expect
to live long enough that I will eventually be unable to do it. I don't want to
be forced out of my house by inability to maintain it.
>
>Karen
>--- In <mailto:SB-r-us%40yahoogroups.com>SB-r-us@yahoogroups.com, David Neeley
<dbneeley@...> wrote:
>>
>> Karen,
>>
>> To make a container house livable, it is necessary to put in
>> penetrations--windows, doors, vents, and the like. With "minimal
>> construction skills" consider how you would be with cutting and
>> welding--considerably harder than working with the typical straw bale house
>> materials.
>>
>> Personally, I like shipping containers as storage units in cases where they
>> can be obtained inexpensively. For many people, the delivery and setup can
>> be quite expensive, though, so a careful analysis of bottom line cost would
>> be in order.
>>
>> Straw bale homes have been built successfully in your region, as I
>> understand it, using lime plaster and decent roof overhangs. Unless you are
>> directly on the coast and your property subject to wind-blown rain moving
>> largely sideways, are you sure you need metal siding at all? Even then, it
>> would be quite possible to use an exterior rain block--perhaps an arbor with
>> grapes or other vines, or possibly a relatively simple canvas awning on the
>> side facing the direction of common winds.
>>
>> Rain cladding on the walls should be fairly carefully designed to be sure
>> the moisture that gets between the wall and the cladding can easily run out
>> and sufficient drying can take place. In your climate, that could be a
>> considerable challenge, I'd bet. Thus, if you can use an entirely separate
>> rain screen that is not directly attached to the wall, I believe you would
>> be ahead of the game.
>>
>> I really think a bale wrapped shipping container makes little sense, I'm
>> afraid. By the time all the work goes into it, you may be better off
>> building the design you really would prefer directly.
>>
>> David
>>
>> On Fri, Dec 25, 2009 at 22:01, kyounge1956 <karenyounge@...>wrote:
>>
>> > I can't 'splain the thought processes of the person who brought up bale
>> > wrap on cheap-shelters. I just thought the document here would be relevant
>> > to the discussion there.
>> >
>> > But as a person who has repeatedly contemplated the idea of combining bales
>> > and containers I can tell you what drew my attention. (snip)
>> >
>> > I return again and again to the idea, but in the end, I always talk myself
>> > out of it. I think the combination of bales and boxes should probably stay
>> > in the desert. (snip)
>> > In addition to these at least somewhat practical considerations there is
>> > also the aspect of use of unconventional and/or salvaged materials. This
>> > just appeals to some people. For some, the construction of houses from
>> > bundles of animal bedding satisfies that primal urge, but there are those
>> > more adventurous souls among us who just cannot resist pushing the
envelope.
>> > <g>.
>> >
>> > Merry Christmas!
>> > Karen
>> >
>> > --- In <mailto:SB-r-us%40yahoogroups.com>SB-r-us@yahoogroups.com
<SB-r-us%40yahoogroups.com>, "archilogic"
>> > <archilogic@> wrote:
>> > >
>> > > Just wondering:
>> > >
>> > > If the intention is to minimise costs when utilising straw bales as the
>> > building material, would it not be more economical to eliminate the cargo
>> > container from the design ?(snip)
>> > >
>> > > Maybe someone can 'splain eet to me ?
>> > >
>> >
>--- In <mailto:SB-r-us%40yahoogroups.com>SB-r-us@yahoogroups.com
<SB-r-us%40yahoogroups.com>,
>> > > "kyounge1956" <karenyounge@> wrote:
>> > > > Oops, forgot your second question. The name of the group
>> > > > "cheap-shelters" and deals with all sorts of economical housing, not
just
>> > > > those built from straw bale and/or cargo containers.
>
>


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Karen,

There are homes in Britain, where there is certainly plenty of rain, that
have lime stucco that has been in place for hundreds of years, with
maintenance every generation or two. It seems to depend mostly on how well
the job was done to begin with, from what I understand.

To think they need annual maintenance is, I believe, a misapprehension.

Personally, I would think that a relatively simple and inexpensive porch on
the windward side would be far more enjoyable than a metal cladding for the
walls. By using sliding glass door panels, too, you could enclose it if you
wish--either permanently or with removable panels. That would expand  your
effective living space while completely protecting the walls on that side of
the house.

I presume the primary direction of wind-borne rain will be from the West. A
glassed-in porch on that side would also help you in Winter by collecting
what warmth there is in the afternoons to vent into the house proper, aiding
your heating by a good measure.

Obviously, the primary expense would lie in expanding the roof over the
porch area--probably by four to six additional feet (I presume you are
already planning wide eaves to protect the walls anyway).

One home I helped plan had such a porch, and it was used among other things
as a place to hang freshly washed clothing to dry during the Winter.

David

On Sat, Dec 26, 2009 at 10:21, kyounge1956 <karenyounge@...>wrote:

>
>
> Hi David,
> As I say, I keep talking myself out of bale wrap. I usually talk myself out
> of it before I get to worrying about how to make openings in the cargo
> container. Since I know even less about metalworking I do about carpentry, I
> would probably talk myself out of it even if I lived in a desert region. But
> if I *were* going to build a box & bale structure, I'd use my "two parallel
> containers" idea, and put all the openings in the bale walls.
>
> I don't own any land yet (I will be paying for the bale house with money
> from the sale of my current home) so I don't know how close to the coast I
> will be. Actual beach front property is probably above my budget, but I may
> well be close enough to get quite a lot of windblown rain. My reason for
> using metal siding, even though strictly speaking it may not be necessary,
> is to minimize exterior maintenance. From what I have read of lime plasters,
> they need patching and renewal yearly or every other year, and I am simply
> not willing to do it. Building a house with an exterior that requires that
> much upkeep would be setting myself up to fail. Also, I hope to live in this
> house for the rest of my life, and even if I were prepared to take on that
> much maintenance now, I expect to live long enough that I will eventually be
> unable to do it. I don't want to be forced out of my house by inability to
> maintain it.
>
> Karen
>


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Hi David,
As I say, I keep talking myself out of bale wrap. I usually talk myself out of
it before I get to worrying about how to make openings in the cargo container.
Since I know even less about metalworking I do about carpentry, I would probably
talk myself out of it even if I lived in a desert region. But if I *were* going
to build a box & bale structure, I'd use my "two parallel containers" idea, and
put all the openings in the bale walls.

I don't own any land yet (I will be paying for the bale house with money from
the sale of my current home) so I don't know how close to the coast I will be.
Actual beach front property is probably above my budget, but I may well be close
enough to get quite a lot of windblown rain. My reason for using metal siding,
even though strictly speaking it may not be necessary, is to minimize exterior
maintenance. From what I have read of lime plasters, they need patching and
renewal yearly or every other year, and I am simply not willing to do it.
Building a house with an exterior that requires that much upkeep would be
setting myself up to fail. Also, I hope to live in this house for the rest of my
life, and even if I were prepared to take on that much maintenance now, I expect
to live long enough that I will eventually be unable to do it. I don't want to
be forced out of my house by inability to maintain it.

Karen
--- In SB-r-us@yahoogroups.com, David Neeley <dbneeley@...> wrote:
>
> Karen,
>
> To make a container house livable, it is necessary to put in
> penetrations--windows, doors, vents, and the like. With "minimal
> construction skills" consider how you would be with cutting and
> welding--considerably harder than working with the typical straw bale house
> materials.
>
> Personally, I like shipping containers as storage units in cases where they
> can be obtained inexpensively. For many people, the delivery and setup can
> be quite expensive, though, so a careful analysis of bottom line cost would
> be in order.
>
> Straw bale homes have been built successfully in your region, as I
> understand it, using lime plaster and decent roof overhangs. Unless you are
> directly on the coast and your property subject to wind-blown rain moving
> largely sideways, are you sure you need metal siding at all? Even then, it
> would be quite possible to use an exterior rain block--perhaps an arbor with
> grapes or other vines, or possibly a relatively simple canvas awning on the
> side facing the direction of common winds.
>
> Rain cladding on the walls should be fairly carefully designed to be sure
> the moisture that gets between the wall and the cladding can easily run out
> and sufficient drying can take place. In your climate, that could be a
> considerable challenge, I'd bet. Thus, if you can use an entirely separate
> rain screen that is not directly attached to the wall, I believe you would
> be ahead of the game.
>
> I really think a bale wrapped shipping container makes little sense, I'm
> afraid. By the time all the work goes into it, you may be better off
> building the design you really would prefer directly.
>
> David
>
> On Fri, Dec 25, 2009 at 22:01, kyounge1956 <karenyounge@...>wrote:
>
> > I can't 'splain the thought processes of the person who brought up bale
> > wrap on cheap-shelters. I just thought the document here would be relevant
> > to the discussion there.
> >
> > But as a person who has repeatedly contemplated the idea of combining bales
> > and containers I can tell you what drew my attention. (snip)
> >
> > I return again and again to the idea, but in the end, I always talk myself
> > out of it. I think the combination of bales and boxes should probably stay
> > in the desert. (snip)
> > In addition to these at least somewhat practical considerations there is
> > also the aspect of use of unconventional and/or salvaged materials. This
> > just appeals to some people. For some, the construction of houses from
> > bundles of animal bedding satisfies that primal urge, but there are those
> > more adventurous souls among us who just cannot resist pushing the envelope.
> > <g>.
> >
> > Merry Christmas!
> > Karen
> >
> > --- In SB-r-us@yahoogroups.com <SB-r-us%40yahoogroups.com>, "archilogic"
> > <archilogic@> wrote:
> > >
> > > Just wondering:
> > >
> > > If the intention is to minimise costs when utilising straw bales as the
> > building material, would it not be more economical to eliminate the cargo
> > container from the design ?(snip)
> > >
> > > Maybe someone can 'splain eet to me ?
> > >
> >
--- In SB-r-us@yahoogroups.com <SB-r-us%40yahoogroups.com>,
> > > "kyounge1956" <karenyounge@> wrote:
> > > > Oops, forgot your second question. The name of the group
> > > > "cheap-shelters" and deals with all sorts of economical housing, not
just
> > > > those built from straw bale and/or cargo containers.

Gravel will not stop rodents.  My mother put a layer of gravel under hardware
cloth as a floor in an aviary.  With in one year you could not find the gravel
and there was dirt coming up through the wire.  The wire then rusted away.


lAt 12:01 PM 12/25/2009, you wrote:
>
>
>I can't 'splain the thought processes of the person who brought up bale wrap on
cheap-shelters. I just thought the document here would be relevant to the
discussion there.
>
>But as a person who has repeatedly contemplated the idea of combining bales and
containers I can tell you what drew my attention. First, the container is
structural. My carpentry skills (if you can call them that) are strictly
rudimentary. I could be reasonably confident a cargo container would not
collapse on my head, but whether the same will be true of a building constructed
by yours truly remains to be seen. The second big factor for me was the use of
gravel between the bales and the metal wall. I'm planning to use an exterior
finish of rainscreen plus metal siding on my bale house, but as I understand it,
I need to put a layer of some kind of render over the bales behind the siding to
defend them against fire and vermin. Pouring gravel down between bales and metal
just seems like it would be simpler and faster than mixing and applying any kind
of plaster. Plus, you don't have to worry about gravel cracking and falling off.
Third, the cargo container is IIRC sitting on a comp
acted gravel base rather than a concrete pad, which is attractive if one wishes
to minimize use of concrete, or does not know how to pour and finish concrete,
or both. Lastly, the container provides a secure storage space for tools and
materials, so the builder can leave the site as necessary with a reasonable
expectation that everything will still be there when s/he returns.
>
>I can't find it just now, but at one time (and I think it was here on SB-r-us)
I proposed a design of two cargo containers set down parallel to each other,
with bale walls enclosing the rectangle thus defined, and a truss roof on top
supported by the containers, as a possible way to combine bales and containers
taking advantage of the features of both but avoiding some of the problems you
point out.
>
>I return again and again to the idea, but in the end, I always talk myself out
of it. I think the combination of bales and boxes should probably stay in the
desert. In my cool maritime Pacific NW climate it just seems like the potential
for condensation problems is too great to make it practicable here, but since my
proposed location is reasonably close to an ocean port, I might be tempted to
try bale wrap on a single container, or as a lean-to against one side of a
container, as secure storage/temporary living quarters while building my real
house. If the condensation problems materialize, I can use the rotting bales to
mulch the garden and still have the container to use as a shed or unheated
outbuilding. And if the problems don't happen, I'll have an additional livable
space I can use for whatever purpose occurs to me. That would be a good thing,
because the house as currently designed is Very Small Indeed.
>
>In addition to these at least somewhat practical considerations there is also
the aspect of use of unconventional and/or salvaged materials. This just appeals
to some people. For some, the construction of houses from bundles of animal
bedding satisfies that primal urge, but there are those more adventurous souls
among us who just cannot resist pushing the envelope. <g>.
>
>Merry Christmas!
>Karen
>
>--- In <mailto:SB-r-us%40yahoogroups.com>SB-r-us@yahoogroups.com, "archilogic"
<archilogic@...> wrote:
>>
>>
>>
>> --- In <mailto:SB-r-us%40yahoogroups.com>SB-r-us@yahoogroups.com,
"kyounge1956" <karenyounge@> wrote:
>> >
>> > Oops, forgot your second question. The name of the group "cheap-shelters"
and deals with all sorts of economical housing, not just those built from straw
bale and/or cargo containers.
>>
>> Just wondering:
>>
>> If the intention is to minimise costs when utilising straw bales as the
building material, would it not be more economical to eliminate the cargo
container from the design ?
>>
>> I fail to see the function of the steel crate other that it being a big PITA
to schlep to the site and then have to design everything around an awkward long,
narrow module of a metal condensation magnet/echo chamber and then once then
once the exterior is finished, presumably one still has to do something on the
interior to make the tin can-ness disappear ?
>>
>> That is to say, in addition to increasing the cost of the structure and the
time that must be invested in building, much of the process and the lifestyle
after construction is it seems, to accommodate the shipping container.
>>
>> I'd venture that it should be the other way around. The structure should
accommodate the inhabitants and their lifestyle.
>>
>> Maybe someone can 'splain eet to me ?
>>
>
>


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Karen,

To make a container house livable, it is necessary to put in
penetrations--windows, doors, vents, and the like. With "minimal
construction skills" consider how you would be with cutting and
welding--considerably harder than working with the typical straw bale house
materials.

Personally, I like shipping containers as storage units in cases where they
can be obtained inexpensively. For many people, the delivery and setup can
be quite expensive, though, so a careful analysis of bottom line cost would
be in order.

Straw bale homes have been built successfully in your region, as I
understand it, using lime plaster and decent roof overhangs. Unless you are
directly on the coast and your property subject to wind-blown rain moving
largely sideways, are you sure you need metal siding at all? Even then, it
would be quite possible to use an exterior rain block--perhaps an arbor with
grapes or other vines, or possibly a relatively simple canvas awning on the
side facing the direction of common winds.

Rain cladding on the walls should be fairly carefully designed to be sure
the moisture that gets between the wall and the cladding can easily run out
and sufficient drying can take place. In your climate, that could be a
considerable challenge, I'd bet. Thus, if you can use an entirely separate
rain screen that is not directly attached to the wall, I believe you would
be ahead of the game.

I really think a bale wrapped shipping container makes little sense, I'm
afraid. By the time all the work goes into it, you may be better off
building the design you really would prefer directly.

David

On Fri, Dec 25, 2009 at 22:01, kyounge1956 <karenyounge@...>wrote:

>
>
> I can't 'splain the thought processes of the person who brought up bale
> wrap on cheap-shelters. I just thought the document here would be relevant
> to the discussion there.
>
> But as a person who has repeatedly contemplated the idea of combining bales
> and containers I can tell you what drew my attention. First, the container
> is structural. My carpentry skills (if you can call them that) are strictly
> rudimentary. I could be reasonably confident a cargo container would not
> collapse on my head, but whether the same will be true of a building
> constructed by yours truly remains to be seen. The second big factor for me
> was the use of gravel between the bales and the metal wall. I'm planning to
> use an exterior finish of rainscreen plus metal siding on my bale house, but
> as I understand it, I need to put a layer of some kind of render over the
> bales behind the siding to defend them against fire and vermin. Pouring
> gravel down between bales and metal just seems like it would be simpler and
> faster than mixing and applying any kind of plaster. Plus, you don't have to
> worry about gravel cracking and falling off. Third, the cargo container is
> IIRC sitting on a compacted gravel base rather than a concrete pad, which is
> attractive if one wishes to minimize use of concrete, or does not know how
> to pour and finish concrete, or both. Lastly, the container provides a
> secure storage space for tools and materials, so the builder can leave the
> site as necessary with a reasonable expectation that everything will still
> be there when s/he returns.
>
> I can't find it just now, but at one time (and I think it was here on
> SB-r-us) I proposed a design of two cargo containers set down parallel to
> each other, with bale walls enclosing the rectangle thus defined, and a
> truss roof on top supported by the containers, as a possible way to combine
> bales and containers taking advantage of the features of both but avoiding
> some of the problems you point out.
>
> I return again and again to the idea, but in the end, I always talk myself
> out of it. I think the combination of bales and boxes should probably stay
> in the desert. In my cool maritime Pacific NW climate it just seems like the
> potential for condensation problems is too great to make it practicable
> here, but since my proposed location is reasonably close to an ocean port, I
> might be tempted to try bale wrap on a single container, or as a lean-to
> against one side of a container, as secure storage/temporary living quarters
> while building my real house. If the condensation problems materialize, I
> can use the rotting bales to mulch the garden and still have the container
> to use as a shed or unheated outbuilding. And if the problems don't happen,
> I'll have an additional livable space I can use for whatever purpose occurs
> to me. That would be a good thing, because the house as currently designed
> is Very Small Indeed.
>
> In addition to these at least somewhat practical considerations there is
> also the aspect of use of unconventional and/or salvaged materials. This
> just appeals to some people. For some, the construction of houses from
> bundles of animal bedding satisfies that primal urge, but there are those
> more adventurous souls among us who just cannot resist pushing the envelope.
> <g>.
>
> Merry Christmas!
> Karen
>
> --- In SB-r-us@yahoogroups.com <SB-r-us%40yahoogroups.com>, "archilogic"
> <archilogic@...> wrote:
> >
> >
> >
> > --- In SB-r-us@yahoogroups.com <SB-r-us%40yahoogroups.com>,
> "kyounge1956" <karenyounge@> wrote:
> > >
> > > Oops, forgot your second question. The name of the group
> "cheap-shelters" and deals with all sorts of economical housing, not just
> those built from straw bale and/or cargo containers.
> >
> > Just wondering:
> >
> > If the intention is to minimise costs when utilising straw bales as the
> building material, would it not be more economical to eliminate the cargo
> container from the design ?
> >
> > I fail to see the function of the steel crate other that it being a big
> PITA to schlep to the site and then have to design everything around an
> awkward long, narrow module of a metal condensation magnet/echo chamber and
> then once then once the exterior is finished, presumably one still has to do
> something on the interior to make the tin can-ness disappear ?
> >
> > That is to say, in addition to increasing the cost of the structure and
> the time that must be invested in building, much of the process and the
> lifestyle after construction is it seems, to accommodate the shipping
> container.
> >
> > I'd venture that it should be the other way around. The structure should
> accommodate the inhabitants and their lifestyle.
> >
> > Maybe someone can 'splain eet to me ?
> >
>
>
>


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

I can't 'splain the thought processes of the person who brought up bale wrap on
cheap-shelters. I just thought the document here would be relevant to the
discussion there.

But as a person who has repeatedly contemplated the idea of combining bales and
containers I can tell you what drew my attention. First, the container is
structural. My carpentry skills (if you can call them that) are strictly
rudimentary. I could be reasonably confident a cargo container would not
collapse on my head, but whether the same will be true of a building constructed
by yours truly remains to be seen. The second big factor for me was the use of
gravel between the bales and the metal wall. I'm planning to use an exterior
finish of rainscreen plus metal siding on my bale house, but as I understand it,
I need to put a layer of some kind of render over the bales behind the siding to
defend them against fire and vermin. Pouring gravel down between bales and metal
just seems like it would be simpler and faster than mixing and applying any kind
of plaster. Plus, you don't have to worry about gravel cracking and falling off.
Third, the cargo container is IIRC sitting on a compacted gravel base rather
than a concrete pad, which is attractive if one wishes to minimize use of
concrete, or does not know how to pour and finish concrete, or both. Lastly, the
container provides a secure storage space for tools and materials, so the
builder can leave the site as necessary with a reasonable expectation that
everything will still be there when s/he returns.

I can't find it just now, but at one time (and I think it was here on SB-r-us) I
proposed a design of two cargo containers set down parallel to each other, with
bale walls enclosing the rectangle thus defined, and a truss roof on top
supported by the containers, as a possible way to combine bales and containers
taking advantage of the features of both but avoiding some of the problems you
point out.

I return again and again to the idea, but in the end, I always talk myself out
of it. I think the combination of bales and boxes should probably stay in the
desert. In my cool maritime Pacific NW climate it just seems like the potential
for condensation problems is too great to make it practicable here, but since my
proposed location is reasonably close to an ocean port, I might be tempted to
try bale wrap on a single container, or as a lean-to against one side of a
container, as secure storage/temporary living quarters while building my real
house. If the condensation problems materialize, I can use the rotting bales to
mulch the garden and still have the container to use as a shed or unheated
outbuilding. And if the problems don't happen, I'll have an additional livable
space I can use for whatever purpose occurs to me. That would be a good thing,
because the house as currently designed is Very Small Indeed.

In addition to these at least somewhat practical considerations there is also
the aspect of use of unconventional and/or salvaged materials. This just appeals
to some people. For some, the construction of houses from bundles of animal
bedding satisfies that primal urge, but there are those more adventurous souls
among us who just cannot resist pushing the envelope. <g>.

Merry Christmas!
Karen

--- In SB-r-us@yahoogroups.com, "archilogic" <archilogic@...> wrote:
>
>
>
> --- In SB-r-us@yahoogroups.com, "kyounge1956" <karenyounge@> wrote:
> >
> > Oops, forgot your second question. The name of the group "cheap-shelters"
and deals with all sorts of economical housing, not just those built from straw
bale and/or cargo containers.
>
> Just wondering:
>
> If the intention is to minimise costs when utilising straw bales as the
building material, would it not be more economical to eliminate the cargo
container from the design ?
>
> I fail to see the function of the steel crate other that it being a big PITA
to schlep to the site and then have to design everything around an awkward long,
narrow module of a metal condensation magnet/echo chamber and then once then
once the exterior is finished, presumably one still has to do something on the
interior to make the tin can-ness disappear ?
>
> That is to say, in addition to increasing the cost of the structure and the
time that must be invested in building, much of the process and the lifestyle
after construction is it seems, to accommodate the shipping container.
>
> I'd venture that it should be the other way around. The structure should
accommodate the inhabitants and their lifestyle.
>
> Maybe someone can 'splain eet to me ?
>

--- In SB-r-us@yahoogroups.com, "kyounge1956" <karenyounge@...> wrote:
>
> Oops, forgot your second question. The name of the group "cheap-shelters" and
deals with all sorts of economical housing, not just those built from straw bale
and/or cargo containers.

Just wondering:

If the intention is to minimise costs when utilising straw bales as the building
material, would it not be more economical to eliminate the cargo container from
the design ?

I fail to see the function of the steel crate other that it being a big PITA to
schlep to the site and then have to design everything around an awkward long,
narrow module of a metal condensation magnet/echo chamber and then once then
once the exterior is finished, presumably one still has to do something on the
interior to make the tin can-ness disappear ?

That is to say, in addition to increasing the cost of the structure and the time
that must be invested in building, much of the process and the lifestyle after
construction is it seems, to accommodate the shipping container.

I'd venture that it should be the other way around. The structure should
accommodate the inhabitants and their lifestyle.

Maybe someone can 'splain eet to me ?

Straw bale continues to go mainstream. A brief article in the
Christian Science Monitor about a bale home going up in Boise, Idaho:

<http://www.csmonitor.com/Environment/2009/1223/In-Idaho-a-house-made-from-straw\
-and-mud>

David

Adam Wilson asked:
Caralee,
Did you use the siloxane on the interior also, or just to strengthen an
exterior earthen plaster to the elements?  Does water bead up like I've
heard, as it's a repellent?  I'm thinking it would need a high saturation
for that.


Reply:  Well, we haven't done the interior yet, but when we do, we'll
probably coat the earthen plaster surface with the Rain-Sil. It helps with
chalking and everything else those walls will take. Water does not bead up
on it.  It just makes the water run off better without taking the earth with
it.  It can, and probably needs, recoating occasionally (every few years),
especially on the outside. Our feeling is that, after all, this is earthen
plaster, not formica, so we're not expecting it to be waterproof.  Just
strong. Where we need to be able to wipe and clean, we'll use something
meant to be easily cleaned, such as stone or tile.  For the record,
BioShield paints produces a soap/wax that can be used on interior surfaces
to reduce chalking and make natural surfaces easier to clean. You might
check their website.  www.bioshieldpaint.com
Caralee











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Yahoo! Groups Links

David,

That "bloom" you mention is why we did not like using Eco-House's Perma-Sil.  I
tried something interesting suggested by the Eco-House smart people to see the
difference between Perma-Sil and the aforementioned Rain-Sil, also one of their
products. Paint each on a piece of glass and let dry.  The Rain-Sil will be
hard, and difficult to remove. The Perma-Sil will be softer, more rubbery,
easier to peel off the glass.  The reason we had to do this is we were sent the
Perma-Sil by mistake and to be sure we'd gotten the wrong product we tested it
just in case.  Interesting results, anyhow.

To answer your question about cost, as I recall the Rain-Sil was maybe $60
gallon, but again mixed 1:10 with water, so it was super cheap to coat our house
with at least two coats, and this spring (after the third year of weathering)
we'll do it again without any evidence that the plaster has been coated--except
it weathers a whole lot better.
Caralee
Kanab, UT
   ----- Original Message -----
   From: Nancy or David Gray
   To: SB-r-us@yahoogroups.com
   Sent: Friday, December 18, 2009 11:44 AM
   Subject: Re: [SB-r-us] Waterglass - Lime on Drywall



   Hello.  Something I forgot to mention in my response to Bill Steen, was that
the sodium silicate form of waterglass can form a bloom as it reacts with carbon
dioxide in the air or any lime products in the substrate.  This is something we
will be watching out for and reporting on if it happens.  It also very slightly
darkened the finish.   I also forgot to mention cost.  A five gallon can, which
gets diluted 1:3 with water, costs about $60.  I don't know what the Eco product
costs, but it sounds highly competitive from your remarks.  Best, David Gray

   --- On Fri, 12/18/09, Caralee <cgwoods@...> wrote:




[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Thanks Adam.  The lithium silicate sounds interesting and there was a vague hint
it might reduce efflorescence in a soda silicate wall, if that is what they mean
by the alkali silicate reaction. 
Hope you find something that works to your satisfaction.  Best, David Gray

--- On Sat, 12/19/09, Adam wilson <sitcomfilter@...> wrote:

From: Adam wilson <sitcomfilter@...>
Subject: RE: [SB-r-us] Waterglass - Lime on Drywall
To: sb-r-us@yahoogroups.com
Date: Saturday, December 19, 2009, 9:57 AM

hard to get good non-biased info, as most people are either selling or
manufacturing the product, but here's a list of attributes under a 'SealWize'
webpage, a company that manufactures a product called Zerovoc, I think. On the
link it compares it to pot. and sod. silicates.       
   http://www.sealwizeofaustin.com/UserFiles/File/Organic%20Inorganic.pdf




[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Bill,
Thanks for the continued discussion.  So you use the water glass product mainly
for aesthetic reasons, to resemble a traditional frescoed wall.    Do you also
notice it also serving the purpose of stain resistance and wipe-ability?  These
are the main reasons I'm trying to find a mineral sealer, that and as a low
maintenance exterior sealer, that reportedly doesn't need the reapplication
every few years like lime washing may. And what other methods do you typically
do to address water-resistance on the exterior?

Caralee,
Did you use the siloxane on the interior also, or just to strengthen an exterior
earthen plaster to the elements?  Does water bead up like I've heard, as it's a
repellent?  I'm thinking it would need a high saturation for that.

Leanne,
Other than the pigment coming off in spots, do you think the pot. silicate
helped with wipe-ability and stain resistance?

I've read in the past few days at least once that people are mistaken that water
glass will do much on rough concrete or stuccoed walls, because of the texture
and difficulty of filling the voids.  Here's a quote from wiki (concrete
sealers) that I just found (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Concrete_sealers)
"Plain silicates are low in cost, and as such are often misapplied as a
sealer for porous, broom finished substrates such as driveways. This is
a poor use of the chemistry, as the liquid disperses randomly without
forming a substantial protective barrier."
Not sure how much truth there is to it, on the web and all.  And most finish
plasters are somewhat smoother than sidewalks and driveways. Another potentially
interesting find was the use of lithium silicate as a sealer for decorative
concrete.  It's hard to get good non-biased info, as most people are either
selling or manufacturing the product, but here's a list of attributes under a
'SealWize' webpage, a company that manufactures a product called Zerovoc, I
think. On the link it compares it to pot. and sod. silicates.          
http://www.sealwizeofaustin.com/UserFiles/File/Organic%20Inorganic.pdf

1. Non-expansive and cannot contribute to Alkali-Silica Reaction (ASR)
2. Non-soluble and will not absorb water or cause sweating
3. Ions are smaller than sodium and potassium ions so deeper penetration into
dense
substrates is possible
4. Lithium is widely recognized as “Green Chemistry”
5. Prevents efflorescence and leaching of lime
6. Once applied, Lithium silicate protection improves with age
7. Can be burnished to create a glass like finish on concrete
8. Seals, hardens and densifies concrete and other masonry materials
9. Unaffected by salt spray and chemical attack
10. US DOT tests have demonstrated that treating ASR-affected concrete with
lithium
compounds can reduce or eliminate expansion due to ASR
11. Less sensitive to application procedures than potassium sealers
12. Higher reactivity than potassium for a more complete crystalline structure
13. Zerovoc LithiSeal is self-reactive and therefore highly effective in old or
worn concrete
and masonry structures
14. Concrete and masonry materials treated with Lithium Silicate sealers are
considered
permanently water repellant



I Guess I'll have to do some more experimenting, buying products and seeing what
if anything works as I'd like.

Adam Wilson










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Hotmail: Trusted email with powerful SPAM protection.
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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Yes.  I just got aware and probably was one of those.  Hopefully you will find
this one succinct.  Best, David Gray

--- On Sat, 12/19/09, Derek Roff <derek@...> wrote:

From: Derek Roff <derek@...>
Subject: [SB-r-us] Please trim your posts
To: SB-r-us@yahoogroups.com
Date: Saturday, December 19, 2009, 8:42 AM




















[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Please quote only there relevant parts of a message when you reply.
In the last few days, interesting additions to the discussion have
been surrounded by hundreds of blank lines and unneeded repeating of
previous information.

This matters most to the people who read the digest version of the
list.  It also means that our archives are 95% waste, and eventually,
we will run out of Yahoo space for storing more useful stuff.  And at
least one member has mentioned in the last month that they are using
dialup.

Thanks,
Derelict

Derek Roff
Language Learning Center
Ortega Hall 129, MSC03-2100
University of New Mexico
Albuquerque, NM 87131-0001
505/277-7368, fax 505/277-3885
Internet: derek@...

Thanks Bill.   I learned a great new word, thixotropy, meaning body, lol.   I
mentioned it before, but the part about bloom worries me for my friends.  If
that occurs, I will post about it.  The part about the potash silicate being
more soluble means it may not be good for protection, whereas the soda
waterglass gets less soluble, maybe meaning it won't wash off in rain. 
Time will tell how the soda waterglass works on the only earth finished house I
know of that has it.  Best, David Gray

--- On Sat, 12/19/09, Athena & Bill Steen <absteen@...> wrote:

From: Athena & Bill Steen <absteen@...>
Subject: [SB-r-us] Potassium Silicate vs Sodium Silicate
To: "SB Yahoos" <SB-r-us@yahoogroups.com>
Date: Saturday, December 19, 2009, 7:24 AM

For everybody's general info, here's a short piece about the 
difference between potassium and sodium silicate.

Bill
Athena & Bill Steen



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

For everybody's general info, here's a short piece about the
difference between potassium and sodium silicate.

Bill
Athena & Bill Steen
caneloproject@...
www.caneloproject.com
www.caneloproject.blogspot.com

Advantages of Potassium Silicate vs. Sodium Silicate

Although potassium silicate has properties and uses similar to those
of sodium silicate, certain differences offer advantages in many uses,
forming a basis for selecting potassium silicate in place of sodium
silicate.



SOLUBILITY

Potassium silicates are more soluble than sodium silicates of equal
levels of alkalinity, making blends with potassium silicate more life-
cycle stable, more rinsable and offers the potential for higher
concentration formulations.

Potassium silicate glass dissolves more rapidly than sodium silicate
glass of equal molar silica-to-alkali ratio. Potassium silicate glass
can be dissolved in atmospheric dissolvers, whereas pressure
dissolvers are generally used for sodium silicate glass.



TEMPERATURE RESISTANCE

Potassium Silicates offer higher temperature resistance for insulation
applications, up to 100 ° F or 50 °C higher than sodium silicates.
This also applies to inorganic coating temperature stability as well,
such as inorganic zinc coatings.



LOW EFFLORESCENCE

Sodium Silicates tend to react with atmospheric carbon dioxide to form
carbonates and become progressively less water-soluble. Potassium
silicate films are less likely than sodium silicate to develop a
carbonate bloom or white efflorescent coat of alkali carbonate.



LOWER TACK

Potassium silicate solutions are not as sticky or tacky as sodium
silicate solutions and are therefore easier to handle and use.



CLEANING COMPOUNDS & CORROSION INHIBITION

The superior solubility and compatibility of potassium silicate with
surface-active agents, solvents, electrolytes and diluents give the
formulator a wider choice than permitted with sodium silicate.
Potassium silicate enhances the wetting and cleaning properties of
soaps and detergents. Liquid cleaners that show excellent storage
stability can be compounded with potassium silicate. In addition, the
silicate ion has marked anticorrosion properties to protect metal
surfaces, and potassium silicate can be effective as a corrosion
inhibitor in non-cleaning applications as well.







MORTARS

Potassium Silicate shows a high value-in-use as a binder in mortars
which must withstand acidic conditions other than hydrofluoric acid.
In particular, potassium silicate should be considered where sodium
silicate in mortars shows limited durability. Mortars prepared with
potassium silicate show less tendency than sodium silicate mortars to
stick to the trowel and have more "body" (thixotropy) to hold bricks
in place before setting permanently. Mortars containing potassium
silicate will withstand higher temperatures than those containing
sodium silicate will. This favors its use in refractory cement.
Potassium Silicate mortars also show excellent acid resistance.



COATINGS

Since potassium silicate films resist “bloom” or effloresce, potassium
silicate is useful as a pigment vehicle for brick, concrete and stone.
Silicates are also used in hardening and dust-proofing concrete. A
siliceous deposit closes the pores to make the concrete surface less
permeable to oils and other liquids, and can also act as an “anti-
dusting” compound.

The non-blooming characteristic of potassium silicate also accounts
for its excellent performance as a binder in roofing granules. The
silicate binder is blended with pigments such as titanium dioxide,
clays, and insolubilizing agents, coated on a granule base, and heated
to 1000 °F ( 538 °C) to produce a water-insoluble, weather-resistant
coating. The clear colorless silicate film does not effloresce or hide
pigment in the granule system.




[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Well, this is a deal breaker.  There was a company in upstate Calif. that did
use heat to bind the lignins in just this way, but they went belly up.  Your
comments apropos of the holes vs channels are also well-taken.   Perhaps they
are reading.  Best, David Gray

--- On Fri, 12/18/09, RT <archilogic@...> wrote:

From: RT <archilogic@...>
Subject: [SB-r-us] Re: Lego blocks from Straw
To: "European strawbale building discussions" <strawbale@...>
Cc: "GB REPP" <greenbuilding@...>, "SB REPP"
<Strawbale@...>, "SB Yahoos" <sb-r-us@yahoogroups.com>
Date: Friday, December 18, 2009, 12:03 PM

The blurb that I saw in the link that Duck Foo'd provided mentioned 
"polyurethane (MDI)" as the binder.


I would have preferred to see the Oryzatech people utilise the straw's 
lignin as a natural binder rather than the plast-ecch!
one but I suppose that there's be a trade-off in terms of manufacturing 
energy required.


=== * ===
Rob Tom
Kanata, Ontario, Canada
<A r c h i L o g i c  at  Y a h o o  dot  c a >
(manually winnow the chaff from my edress if you hit "Reply")
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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

On Fri, 18 Dec 2009 07:07:49 -0500, Marc Huebner <marchuebner@...>
wrote:

> Does anybody know what kind of glue the guys from oryzatech are using?
> This sounds like they are using some kind of thermoplastic!?!?


The blurb that I saw in the link that Duck Foo'd provided mentioned
"polyurethane (MDI)" as the binder.

MDI = Methylene diphenyl diisocyanate ("cyan-ate" as in "cyan-ide"),
C15-H10-N2-O2
        fairly innocuous but a potential allergen/sensitiser and in a fire
the  plast-e-c-chhh will generate toxic smoke.

But for that matter, many people are allergic to straw (or more precisely,
the allergens that are often found on straw) and in any fire, it is
usually the smoke, not the fire that kills.

That being said, as any woodworker can probably tell you, steam-bening
wood is a process of softening the lignin binding the wood fibres
together, thereby allowing the fibres to slide past one another during the
bending process without fracturing the wood and upon cooling, the lignin,
like a thermoplastic, solidifies again, fusing the fibres together again
and retaining the bent shape.

I would have preferred to see the Oryzatech people utilise the straw's
lignin as a natural binder rather than the plast-ecch!
one but I suppose that there's be a trade-off in terms of manufacturing
energy required.

I'm not too fussy on the blocks being designed to accommodate steel rebar
and concrete in the cores for stiffening either in the same manner that
foamed plast-echhh! stay-in-place insulating concrete forms (ICF) are
erected.

Baleheads long ago learned that core-stiffening elements like rebar or
threaded rod placed at the neutral axis of the wall section is the least
effective placement for those elements, not to mention that placement at
that location is a major pain in the butt (PITA).

I think that Oryzatech would have been better off simply keeping the block
cores solid and perhaps providing a series of surface channels which could
be used to accommodate exterior tensioning elements (if preferred over
simply using tensioned mesh) and/or electrical wiring.

and elitalking <elitalking@...> wrote:


> I am wondering how tight the construction is.  Is it relying on the
> stucco or other layers to provide air barrier.  It mentioned structural
> qualities. Is exterior sheathing required?  Does the rigidity of the
> interlocking elements sufficient to provide lateral bracing?

Having never seen one of the blocks and assuming that the pee-you binder
fills the interstitial voids between the straw fibres, I suppose that if
one were to dip the blocks into a clay slip before setting in the same
manner that Meathook (aka Norbert Senf) dips and sets the firebrick for
his masonry heater cores, the combination might be relatively air-tight
but I suspect that the wall system would still require a wet-applied
plaster in order to provide an effective air-seal.

I suspect that non-seismically-active areas, in-plane shear wouldn't be
much of an issue, and at most, some diagonal tension straps at the
building corners might be required.

Out-of plane lateral resistance... ehhhhh, maybe not so much. I'd be
inclined to mimic the exterior tensioning systems developed for real
strawbale construction.

I like that someone is looking at utilising straw to make a more uniform
building block than the toilet-paper-for-livestock
bales that straw builders are using now, however at this point, I'm not
convinced that Oryzatech has got it right yet. Maybe their Beta version
will be closer ?


Years (decades ?) ago, a Quebecer (Louis Gagnon of the concrete + bales
honeycomb wall fame) took the approach of modifying a standard baler to
produce better-quality building bales. [Mentally balancing/comparing a
Louis Gagnon modified baler all-straw bale in one hand vs an Oryzatech
plast-echhh! + straw legoBale in the other]

And according to the Oryzatech promotion blurb, their 15 lb per cu ft
block yields a wall that is triple the R-value of a conventional 2x6 wall
?  While I suspect that the polyurethane content may contribute something
to enhancing the R-value of unadulterated straw, I strongly doubt that it
enhances it to the point of providing almost R-60 in Murrican units
ft^2*hr*degF/Btu (or  RSI 10.57 in metric units m^2*degC/W ).





=== * ===
Rob Tom
Kanata, Ontario, Canada
<A r c h i L o g i c  at  Y a h o o  dot  c a >
(manually winnow the chaff from my edress if you hit "Reply")
__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Tired of spam?  Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
http://mail.yahoo.com

Hello.  Something I forgot to mention in my response to Bill Steen, was that the
sodium silicate form of waterglass can form a bloom as it reacts with carbon
dioxide in the air or any lime products in the substrate.  This is something we
will be watching out for and reporting on if it happens.  It also very slightly
darkened the finish.   I also forgot to mention cost.  A five gallon can, which
gets diluted 1:3 with water, costs about $60.  I don't know what the Eco product
costs, but it sounds highly competitive from your remarks.  Best, David Gray

--- On Fri, 12/18/09, Caralee <cgwoods@...> wrote:

From: Caralee <cgwoods@...>
Subject: Re: [SB-r-us] Waterglass - Lime on Drywall
To: SB-r-us@yahoogroups.com
Date: Friday, December 18, 2009, 9:47 AM







 









       Bill,

Jim and I really like Eco-House's product Rain-Sil, a siloxane product that
really helps to strengthen, help with weathering of all sorts, and doesn't
affect permeability or darken, shine, or otherwise change the look of the
surface.  Also it's pretty inexpensive since you mix it 1:10 with water and
apply to the surface.  In this case, I'm talking about earthen plaster.

Caralee

Kanab, UT

www.builtbyhandstra wbale.com

















[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Thanks for the reply, Bill.  I was just jazzing about the European trained,
apropos of your recent trip there.  Didn't mean to irritate.
  As to the waterglass, could you say a little more about your experience with
either one, the soda or the potash variety?   I have been helping with an earth
plastered strawbale infill home, and the owners chose sodium silicate to protect
from wind driven rain.  We had an early storm and the rain was horizontal, and
eroded an unfinished southern wall.  It remains to be seen how the waterglass
will perform over time, but a test patch did resist direct hosing while the
surrounding area eroded.  That is all we have to go by so far.  We await the
next "pineapple express", as the horizontal rain delivering storms are called
here.
Hope you have a great holiday.  If I ever show up at one of your workshops, it
will be under an assumed name.  Best, David Gray

--- On Fri, 12/18/09, Athena & Bill Steen <absteen@...> wrote:

From: Athena & Bill Steen <absteen@...>
Subject: [SB-r-us] Waterglass - Lime on Drywall
To: "SB Yahoos" <SB-r-us@yahoogroups.com>, "SB REPP"
<STRAWBALE@...>
Date: Friday, December 18, 2009, 7:45 AM




As for David Gray's comments about the similarity of sodium silicate

and potassium silicate I would have to say that I can't answer that,

at least for now.  What I can say is that I will find out and get an

answer.  Another thing that I will add is that I've never found either

one very good for water repellency with the exception of the Eco-

House's product that has an addition of siloxane.



By the way David, I am not European trained, not in the least.  Quite

the opposite.



Bill

Athena & Bill Steen

caneloproject@ gmail.com

www.caneloproject. com

www.caneloproject. blogspot. com



On Dec 15, 2009, at 5:55 PM, Adam wilson wrote:



>

> I'm glad Bill brought this up, about the difference of sodium and

> potassium silicates.  I was looking to source this material online

> and came across the claim that they function the same.  Took it

> hook, line, and sinker.  The real world difference between the too...

> Here's a link to the supposed history of modern use of potassium

> silicate (water glass), on a mineral paint manufacturer' s website.

>

> http://www.keim. com/AboutUs/ tabid/65/ Default.aspx# history

>

> I'm curious what new "binder development" they came up with in 2002

> that "opens up entirely new areas of application for silicate paints."

>

> Any good online sources for potassium silicate?  Has anyone tried

> making pigmented sealer coats like the kind Keim offers on their

> website?  Anybody use the Keim products before?

>

> Sincerely,

> Adam Wilson

>

>

> To: SB-r-us@yahoogroups .com

> From: ndgray@sbcglobal. net

> Date: Tue, 15 Dec 2009 15:44:09 -0800

> Subject: Re: [Strawbale] [SB-r-us] Re: lime plaster on drywall?

> Primer?

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>      Damn Bill, I should have kept my mouth shut.

>

>

>

> http://en.wikipedia .org/wiki/ Sodium_silicate

>

>

>

> I knew you meant interior about the lime plaster stuff.

>

>

>

> But now you have me really confused about waterglass.  As far as I

> can tell, sodium silicate is waterglass, and does a good job

> protecting by binding to the sand in the clay.  We did two coats as

> recommended by the manufacturer.  Blasting a hose on the unprotected

> surface erodes it, blasting on the waterglass treated surface

> protects.

>

> Potassium silicate?  I can't say anything about it in this regard,

> except it is not known as waterglass.  Maybe wiki is goofy, but

> other sources say the same.

>

> Maybe you just got them backwards.  I do that a lot.  Best, David Gray

>

>

>

> --- On Tue, 12/15/09, Athena & Bill Steen <absteen@dakotacom. net>

> wrote:

>

>

>

> From: Athena & Bill Steen <absteen@dakotacom. net>

>

> Subject: Re: [Strawbale] [SB-r-us] Re: lime plaster on drywall?

> Primer?

>

> To: SB-r-us@yahoogroups .com

>

> Date: Tuesday, December 15, 2009, 11:24 AM

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

> David,

>

>

>

> I should have qualified that since we were talking about drywall I was

>

>

>

> referring to interior wall surfaces.

>

>

>

> If you were going to use it outside then you'd better have something

>

>

>

> waterproof in mind, but exterior surfaces are usually better lathed in

>

>

>

> one way or another.

>

>

>

> Getting back to interior walls, starch glue is often the weakest, but

>

>

>

> used to work for many many years to adhere wall paper for the long

> term.

>

>

>

> So it would depend upon thickness of plaster, quality of the plaster

>

>

>

> and application and whatever the plaster will be subjected to.

>

>

>

> As for the sodium silicate chances are it will not do much.  People

>

>

>

> somehow got waterglass (potassium siliicate) confused with sodium

>

>

>

> silicate and  surmised it would do the same thing.  In my experience

>

>

>

> it does not.  Even a company like Eco-house in Canada that sells

>

>

>

> waterglass products adds a touch of siloxane to their exterior

>

>

>

> waterglass treatment for waterproofing.

>

>

>

> Bill

>

>

>

> Athena & Bill Steen

>

>

>

> caneloproject@ gmail.com

>

>

>

> www.caneloproject. com

>

>

>

> www.caneloproject. blogspot. com

>

>

>

> On Dec 15, 2009, at 10:37 AM, Nancy or David Gray wrote:

>

>

>

>> So in summation, paint or spray on some PVA (poly vinyl acetate), or

>

>

>

>> casein glue, or even some wheat paste recipe a la Cedar Rose,  and

>

>

>

>> then put on whatever you damn well please, as long as it is an

>

>

>

>> interior surface.  Or is this a bit too brash?

>

>

>

>> Just to add, had the pleasure of helping with an exterior clay

>

>

>

>> plaster on straw, and sprayed two coats of sodium silicate, aka

>

>

>

>> waterglass, to help deter wind-driven rain.  The finish hasn't been

>

>

>

>> sorely tested yet, but promises to deliver as advertised if

>

>

>

>> experience with non wind-driven rains so far is any indication.

>

>

>

>> David Gray

>

>

>

>>

>

>

>

>> --- On Tue, 12/15/09, Athena & Bill Steen <absteen@dakotacom. net>

>

>

>

>> wrote:

>

>

>

>>

>

>

>

>> From: Athena & Bill Steen <absteen@dakotacom. net>

>

>

>

>> Subject: Re: [Strawbale] [SB-r-us] Re: lime plaster on drywall?

>

>

>

>> Primer?

>

>

>

>> To: "Adam wilson" <sitcomfilter@ hotmail.com>

>

>

>

>> Cc: sb-r-us@yahoogroups .com, strawbale@listserv. repp.org

>

>

>

>> Date: Tuesday, December 15, 2009, 8:06 AM

>

>

>

>>

>

>

>

>>

>

>

>

>>

>

>

>

>>

>

>

>

>>

>

>

>

>>

>

>

>

>>

>

>

>

>>

>

>

>

>>

>

>

>

>>

>

>

>

>>

>

>

>

>>

>

>

>

>>

>

>

>

>>

>

>

>

>>

>

>

>

>>

>

>

>

>>

>

>

>

>>     Adam,

>

>

>

>>

>

>

>

>> If you look into the ingredients of joint compound what you're going

>

>

>

>>

>

>

>

>> to find is that main ingredients are gypsum, limestone, chalk, talc,

>

>

>

>>

>

>

>

>> perlite and mica powder or some variation of those ingredients.

>

>

>

>>

>

>

>

>> Anyhow, they will not magically adhere to a paper surface without the

>

>

>

>>

>

>

>

>> aid of another critical ingredient.  That magical ingredient is known

>

>

>

>>

>

>

>

>> as polyvinyl acetate or white glue.  So in essence what you need is

>

>

>

>>

>

>

>

>> some way to glue your plaster to the drywall.  I think many people

>> are

>

>

>

>>

>

>

>

>> fooled in that if you apply a plaster to drywall, especially the back

>

>

>

>>

>

>

>

>> side, it will initially stick and look good.  It can even remain

>> there

>

>

>

>>

>

>

>

>> for sometime.  However, with fluctuations in moisture, temperature

>> and

>

>

>

>>

>

>

>

>> abrasive contact, that plaster can/will easily delaminate.

>

>

>

>>

>

>

>

>>

>

>

>

>>

>

>

>

>> So if you want to do a lime plaster I'd suggest you go straight to

>> the

>

>

>

>>

>

>

>

>> surface with the lime plaster.  I don't necessarily like to add the

>

>

>

>>

>

>

>

>> glue to the mix of the plaster unless it is something that doesn't

>

>

>

>>

>

>

>

>> alter the behavior and setting time of the plaster.  I much prefer to

>

>

>

>>

>

>

>

>> paint it on the wall first and then plaster over it.  As for the glue

>

>

>

>>

>

>

>

>> you choose, the choice is yours. Like duty glues such as a starch

>

>

>

>>

>

>

>

>> paste can work, there are numerous variations of polyvinyl acetate on

>

>

>

>>

>

>

>

>> the market whether they be concrete bonder, etc or you can go to a

>

>

>

>>

>

>

>

>> casein glue.

>

>

>

>>

>

>

>

>>

>

>

>

>>

>

>

>

>> That would be the approach that I recommend and I think you'll avoid

>

>

>

>>

>

>

>

>> any potential problems that might arise by combining dissimilar

>

>

>

>>

>

>

>

>> materials.

>

>

>

>>

>

>

>

>>

>

>

>

>>

>

>

>

>> Bill

>

>

>

>>

>

>

>

>>

>

>

>

>>

>

>

>

>> Athena & Bill Steen

>

>

>

>>

>

>

>

>> caneloproject@ gmail.com

>

>

>

>>

>

>

>

>> www.caneloproject. com

>

>

>

>>

>

>

>

>> www.caneloproject. blogspot. com

>

>

>

>>

>

>

>

>>

>

>

>

>>

>

>

>

>> On Dec 14, 2009, at 5:42 PM, Adam wilson wrote:

>

>

>

>>

>

>

>

>>

>

>

>

>>

>

>

>

>>>

>

>

>

>>

>

>

>

>>> Rob,

>

>

>

>>

>

>

>

>>> Thanks for the reply.  The only reason I was thinking of putting on

>

>

>

>>

>

>

>

>>> the skim of joint compound was because it bonds to drywall pretty

>

>

>

>>

>

>

>

>>> well (as far as I can tell, maybe there's something I'm missing,)

>

>

>

>>

>

>

>

>>> and I could make a scratch in it with a combed trowel, possibly a

>

>

>

>>

>

>

>

>>> good mechanical key since dry wall is pretty flat.  Plus my

>

>

>

>>

>

>

>

>>> girlfriend does faux finishes occasionally so we have plenty of it.

>

>

>

>>

>

>

>

>>> The backside of drywall may work better, but doing so would limit it

>

>

>

>>

>

>

>

>>> to new construction and I have remodel work in mind at the moment.

>

>

>

>>

>

>

>

>>>

>

>

>

>>

>

>

>

>>> As for gypsum being sub-par for non-gypsum plasters, probably so.

>

>

>

>>

>

>

>

>>> Blue board is made to plaster on directly, and can't just be

>

>

>

>>

>

>

>

>>> painted.  I'm not sure if it's intended for gypsum plasters solely.

>

>

>

>>

>

>

>

>>> But there are lime plaster products out there being sold for drywall

>

>

>

>>

>

>

>

>>> application, so I'm sure something can make it work quite

>

>

>

>>

>

>

>

>>> satisfactory, if that's the substrate one has to work with.

>

>

>

>>

>

>

>

>>> The lime-water may be enough to do the trick, especially if the

>

>

>

>>

>

>

>

>>> coats are kept to minimal thickness.

>

>

>

>>

>

>

>

>>>

>

>

>

>>

>

>

>

>>> Adam

>

>

>

>>

>

>

>

>>>

>

>

>

>>

>

>

>

>>>> To: strawbale@listserv. repp.org; sb-r-us@yahoogroups .com

>

>

>

>>

>

>

>

>>>> From: archilogic@yahoo. ca

>

>

>

>>

>

>

>

>>>> Date: Mon, 14 Dec 2009 19:20:37 -0500

>

>

>

>>

>

>

>

>>>> Subject: [SB-r-us] Re: lime plaster on drywall?  Primer?

>

>

>

>>

>

>

>

>>>>

>

>

>

>>

>

>

>

>>>> On Mon, 14 Dec 2009 18:29:18 -0500, Adam wilson <sitcomfilter@

>

>

>

>>>> hotmail.com

>

>

>

>>

>

>

>

>>>>>

>

>

>

>>

>

>

>

>>>> wrote:

>

>

>

>>

>

>

>

>>>>

>

>

>

>>

>

>

>

>>>>

>

>

>

>>

>

>

>

>>>>> I was wondering if anybody on the list has used lime on drywall,

>

>

>

>>

>

>

>

>>>>>

>

>

>

>>

>

>

>

>>>>> Originally I was going to take joint compound and lay on a thin

>

>

>

>>

>

>

>

>>>>> layer,

>

>

>

>>

>

>

>

>>>>> combing that over with a thin-set trowel to make a tiny mechanical

>

>

>

>>

>

>

>

>>>>> key,

>

>

>

>>

>

>

>

>>>>> then covering this with a watery lime putty (3% ish) to soak in

>

>

>

>>

>

>

>

>>>>> and make

>

>

>

>>

>

>

>

>>>>> a chemical bond.

>

>

>

>>

>

>

>

>>>>

>

>

>

>>

>

>

>

>>>> I have not tried using lime on drywall but I don't see putting on a

>

>

>

>>

>

>

>

>>>> skim

>

>

>

>>

>

>

>

>>>> coat of joint compound as being advantageous unless it's a setting-

>

>

>

>>

>

>

>

>>>> type

>

>

>

>>

>

>

>

>>>> compound like Durabond 90 or such like.

>

>

>

>>

>

>

>

>>>>

>

>

>

>>

>

>

>

>>>> Spackling mud provides very little in the way of bond strength. If

>

>

>

>>

>

>

>

>>>> anything, I think that it'd weaken the bond.

>

>

>

>>

>

>

>

>>>>

>

>

>

>>

>

>

>

>>>> I seem to have a vague recollection of gypsum retarding the set of

>

>

>

>>

>

>

>

>>>> non-gypsum plasters as well and as such, its use should be avoided

>

>

>

>>

>

>

>

>>>> under

>

>

>

>>

>

>

>

>>>> non-gypsum plasters. Whether that caveat applies in particular to

>

>

>

>>

>

>

>

>>>> lime, I

>

>

>

>>

>

>

>

>>>> can't recall so you may want to do some research to find out.

>

>

>

>>

>

>

>

>>>>

>

>

>

>>

>

>

>

>>>> Something that you might want to experiment with is using the

>

>

>

>>

>

>

>

>>>> backside of

>

>

>

>>

>

>

>

>>>> the drywall facing out and if necessary, use a dilute solution of

>

>

>

>>

>

>

>

>>>> Weldbond

>

>

>

>>

>

>

>

>>>> (an innocuous white glue used primarily by woodworkers) as a primer

>

>

>

>>

>

>

>

>>>> and

>

>

>

>>

>

>

>

>>>> bonding agent although I suspect, a lime wash may suffice. The

>

>

>

>>

>

>

>

>>>> brown paper

>

>

>

>>

>

>

>

>>>> on the backside is a bit tougher and has a slightly better "tooth".

>

>

>

>>

>

>

>

>>>>

>

>

>

>>

>

>

>

>>>> I'd suggest visiting a tract house construction site and ask them

>

>

>

>>

>

>

>

>>>> to send

>

>

>

>>

>

>

>

>>>> the dumpster of drywall cutoff scraps to your place and then

>

>

>

>>

>

>

>

>>>> experiment to

>

>

>

>>

>

>

>

>>>> your heart's content. They should be happy to do so because it

>

>

>

>>

>

>

>

>>>> won't cost

>

>

>

>>

>

>

>

>>>> them anything and will actually save them some money by avoiding

>>>> the

>

>

>

>>

>

>

>

>>>> tippage fees at the landfill.

>

>

>

>>

>

>

>

>>>>

>

>

>

>>

>

>

>

>>>>

>

>

>

>>

>

>

>

>>>>

>

>

>

>>

>

>

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>>>>

>

>

>

>>

>

>

>

>>>> --

>

>

>

>>

>

>

>

>>>> === * ===

>

>

>

>>

>

>

>

>>>> Rob Tom

>

>

>

>>

>

>

>

>>>> Kanata, Ontario, Canada

>

>

>

>>

>

>

>

>>>> <A r c h i L o g i c  at  Y a h o o  dot  c a >

>

>

>

>>

>

>

>

>>>> (manually winnow the chaff from my edress if you hit "Reply")

>

>

>

>>

>

>

>

>>>> ____________ _________ _________ _________ _________ __

>

>

>

>>

>

>

>

>>>> Do You Yahoo!?

>

>

>

>>

>

>

>

>>>> Tired of spam?  Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around

>

>

>

>>

>

>

>

>>>> http://mail. yahoo.com

>

>

>

>>

>

>

>

>>>>

>

>

>

>>

>

>

>

>>>>

>

>

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>>

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>>>>

>

>

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>>

>

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>

>>>> ------------ --------- --------- ------

>

>

>

>>

>

>

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>>>>

>

>

>

>>

>

>

>

>>>> Yahoo! Groups Links

>

>

>

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>>> ____________ _________ _________ _________ _________ _________ _

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>>> Hotmail: Free, trusted and rich email service.

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>>> http://clk.atdmt. com/GBL/go/ 171222984/ direct/01/ _________

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>>> http://listserv. repp.org/ mailman/listinfo /strawbale_ listserv.

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>>> repp.org

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>






















[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Bill,
Jim and I really like Eco-House's product Rain-Sil, a siloxane product that
really helps to strengthen, help with weathering of all sorts, and doesn't
affect permeability or darken, shine, or otherwise change the look of the
surface.  Also it's pretty inexpensive since you mix it 1:10 with water and
apply to the surface.  In this case, I'm talking about earthen plaster.
Caralee
Kanab, UT
www.builtbyhandstrawbale.com

   ----- Original Message -----
   From: Athena & Bill Steen
   To: SB Yahoos ; SB REPP
   Sent: Friday, December 18, 2009 8:45 AM
   Subject: [SB-r-us] Waterglass - Lime on Drywall



   Adam,
   Two things, the first is that the supplier that we've used for
   waterglass products is Eco-House in Canada. www.eco-house.com
   I should point out that there are not many of their products that we
   use. First of all we almost never paint walls. The main product that
   we use is their Prima Sil which we dilute with water and add pigments
   to either touch up fresco color or to fresco a lime plastered wall
   that was to dry to accept the color otherwise.
   I'm trying a new product that is supposed to work even better for that
   application called Silazur Exterior Wall Stain. I don't use it for
   waterproofing walls, typically we use other methods.

   As for David Gray's comments about the similarity of sodium silicate
   and potassium silicate I would have to say that I can't answer that,
   at least for now. What I can say is that I will find out and get an
   answer. Another thing that I will add is that I've never found either
   one very good for water repellency with the exception of the Eco-
   House's product that has an addition of siloxane.

   By the way David, I am not European trained, not in the least. Quite
   the opposite.

   Now back to the lime on drywall. At the moment I have a young
   plasterer here from Japan that we are working with. Of all things
   we're doing a polished lime plaster, the method comes out of Italy.
   Anyhow, we are doing it over a base of powdered gypsum - hot mud - 90
   minute set. In our discussion as to why, he answered that he likes
   the gypsum for the strength it gives to the taped joints and any areas
   such as recesses caused by the screws. Keep in mind that this is a
   highly polished wall that requires a lot of repetitive trowel
   movements with pressure and may not be the same for a normal plaster
   application. So I thought I would pass his comments on to the lists.

   Bill
   Athena & Bill Steen
   caneloproject@...
   www.caneloproject.com
   www.caneloproject.blogspot.com

   On Dec 15, 2009, at 5:55 PM, Adam wilson wrote:

   >
   > I'm glad Bill brought this up, about the difference of sodium and
   > potassium silicates. I was looking to source this material online
   > and came across the claim that they function the same. Took it
   > hook, line, and sinker. The real world difference between the too...
   > Here's a link to the supposed history of modern use of potassium
   > silicate (water glass), on a mineral paint manufacturer's website.
   >
   > http://www.keim.com/AboutUs/tabid/65/Default.aspx#history
   >
   > I'm curious what new "binder development" they came up with in 2002
   > that "opens up entirely new areas of application for silicate paints."
   >
   > Any good online sources for potassium silicate? Has anyone tried
   > making pigmented sealer coats like the kind Keim offers on their
   > website? Anybody use the Keim products before?
   >
   > Sincerely,
   > Adam Wilson
   >
   >
   > To: SB-r-us@yahoogroups.com
   > From: ndgray@...
   > Date: Tue, 15 Dec 2009 15:44:09 -0800
   > Subject: Re: [Strawbale] [SB-r-us] Re: lime plaster on drywall?
   > Primer?
   >
   >
   >
   >
   >
   >
   >
   >
   >
   >
   >
   >
   >
   >
   >
   >
   >
   >
   >
   >
   >
   >
   >
   >
   >
   >
   >
   >
   > Damn Bill, I should have kept my mouth shut.
   >
   >
   >
   > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sodium_silicate
   >
   >
   >
   > I knew you meant interior about the lime plaster stuff.
   >
   >
   >
   > But now you have me really confused about waterglass. As far as I
   > can tell, sodium silicate is waterglass, and does a good job
   > protecting by binding to the sand in the clay. We did two coats as
   > recommended by the manufacturer. Blasting a hose on the unprotected
   > surface erodes it, blasting on the waterglass treated surface
   > protects.
   >
   > Potassium silicate? I can't say anything about it in this regard,
   > except it is not known as waterglass. Maybe wiki is goofy, but
   > other sources say the same.
   >
   > Maybe you just got them backwards. I do that a lot. Best, David Gray
   >
   >
   >
   > --- On Tue, 12/15/09, Athena & Bill Steen <absteen@...>
   > wrote:
   >
   >
   >
   > From: Athena & Bill Steen <absteen@...>
   >
   > Subject: Re: [Strawbale] [SB-r-us] Re: lime plaster on drywall?
   > Primer?
   >
   > To: SB-r-us@yahoogroups.com
   >
   > Date: Tuesday, December 15, 2009, 11:24 AM
   >
   >
   >
   >
   >
   >
   >
   > David,
   >
   >
   >
   > I should have qualified that since we were talking about drywall I was
   >
   >
   >
   > referring to interior wall surfaces.
   >
   >
   >
   > If you were going to use it outside then you'd better have something
   >
   >
   >
   > waterproof in mind, but exterior surfaces are usually better lathed in
   >
   >
   >
   > one way or another.
   >
   >
   >
   > Getting back to interior walls, starch glue is often the weakest, but
   >
   >
   >
   > used to work for many many years to adhere wall paper for the long
   > term.
   >
   >
   >
   > So it would depend upon thickness of plaster, quality of the plaster
   >
   >
   >
   > and application and whatever the plaster will be subjected to.
   >
   >
   >
   > As for the sodium silicate chances are it will not do much. People
   >
   >
   >
   > somehow got waterglass (potassium siliicate) confused with sodium
   >
   >
   >
   > silicate and surmised it would do the same thing. In my experience
   >
   >
   >
   > it does not. Even a company like Eco-house in Canada that sells
   >
   >
   >
   > waterglass products adds a touch of siloxane to their exterior
   >
   >
   >
   > waterglass treatment for waterproofing.
   >
   >
   >
   > Bill
   >
   >
   >
   > Athena & Bill Steen
   >
   >
   >
   > caneloproject@ gmail.com
   >
   >
   >
   > www.caneloproject. com
   >
   >
   >
   > www.caneloproject. blogspot. com
   >
   >
   >
   > On Dec 15, 2009, at 10:37 AM, Nancy or David Gray wrote:
   >
   >
   >
   >> So in summation, paint or spray on some PVA (poly vinyl acetate), or
   >
   >
   >
   >> casein glue, or even some wheat paste recipe a la Cedar Rose, and
   >
   >
   >
   >> then put on whatever you damn well please, as long as it is an
   >
   >
   >
   >> interior surface. Or is this a bit too brash?
   >
   >
   >
   >> Just to add, had the pleasure of helping with an exterior clay
   >
   >
   >
   >> plaster on straw, and sprayed two coats of sodium silicate, aka
   >
   >
   >
   >> waterglass, to help deter wind-driven rain. The finish hasn't been
   >
   >
   >
   >> sorely tested yet, but promises to deliver as advertised if
   >
   >
   >
   >> experience with non wind-driven rains so far is any indication.
   >
   >
   >
   >> David Gray
   >
   >
   >
   >>
   >
   >
   >
   >> --- On Tue, 12/15/09, Athena & Bill Steen <absteen@dakotacom. net>
   >
   >
   >
   >> wrote:
   >
   >
   >
   >>
   >
   >
   >
   >> From: Athena & Bill Steen <absteen@dakotacom. net>
   >
   >
   >
   >> Subject: Re: [Strawbale] [SB-r-us] Re: lime plaster on drywall?
   >
   >
   >
   >> Primer?
   >
   >
   >
   >> To: "Adam wilson" <sitcomfilter@ hotmail.com>
   >
   >
   >
   >> Cc: sb-r-us@yahoogroups .com, strawbale@listserv. repp.org
   >
   >
   >
   >> Date: Tuesday, December 15, 2009, 8:06 AM
   >
   >
   >
   >>
   >
   >
   >
   >>
   >
   >
   >
   >>
   >
   >
   >
   >>
   >
   >
   >
   >>
   >
   >
   >
   >>
   >
   >
   >
   >>
   >
   >
   >
   >>
   >
   >
   >
   >>
   >
   >
   >
   >>
   >
   >
   >
   >>
   >
   >
   >
   >>
   >
   >
   >
   >>
   >
   >
   >
   >>
   >
   >
   >
   >>
   >
   >
   >
   >>
   >
   >
   >
   >>
   >
   >
   >
   >> Adam,
   >
   >
   >
   >>
   >
   >
   >
   >> If you look into the ingredients of joint compound what you're going
   >
   >
   >
   >>
   >
   >
   >
   >> to find is that main ingredients are gypsum, limestone, chalk, talc,
   >
   >
   >
   >>
   >
   >
   >
   >> perlite and mica powder or some variation of those ingredients.
   >
   >
   >
   >>
   >
   >
   >
   >> Anyhow, they will not magically adhere to a paper surface without the
   >
   >
   >
   >>
   >
   >
   >
   >> aid of another critical ingredient. That magical ingredient is known
   >
   >
   >
   >>
   >
   >
   >
   >> as polyvinyl acetate or white glue. So in essence what you need is
   >
   >
   >
   >>
   >
   >
   >
   >> some way to glue your plaster to the drywall. I think many people
   >> are
   >
   >
   >
   >>
   >
   >
   >
   >> fooled in that if you apply a plaster to drywall, especially the back
   >
   >
   >
   >>
   >
   >
   >
   >> side, it will initially stick and look good. It can even remain
   >> there
   >
   >
   >
   >>
   >
   >
   >
   >> for sometime. However, with fluctuations in moisture, temperature
   >> and
   >
   >
   >
   >>
   >
   >
   >
   >> abrasive contact, that plaster can/will easily delaminate.
   >
   >
   >
   >>
   >
   >
   >
   >>
   >
   >
   >
   >>
   >
   >
   >
   >> So if you want to do a lime plaster I'd suggest you go straight to
   >> the
   >
   >
   >
   >>
   >
   >
   >
   >> surface with the lime plaster. I don't necessarily like to add the
   >
   >
   >
   >>
   >
   >
   >
   >> glue to the mix of the plaster unless it is something that doesn't
   >
   >
   >
   >>
   >
   >
   >
   >> alter the behavior and setting time of the plaster. I much prefer to
   >
   >
   >
   >>
   >
   >
   >
   >> paint it on the wall first and then plaster over it. As for the glue
   >
   >
   >
   >>
   >
   >
   >
   >> you choose, the choice is yours. Like duty glues such as a starch
   >
   >
   >
   >>
   >
   >
   >
   >> paste can work, there are numerous variations of polyvinyl acetate on
   >
   >
   >
   >>
   >
   >
   >
   >> the market whether they be concrete bonder, etc or you can go to a
   >
   >
   >
   >>
   >
   >
   >
   >> casein glue.
   >
   >
   >
   >>
   >
   >
   >
   >>
   >
   >
   >
   >>
   >
   >
   >
   >> That would be the approach that I recommend and I think you'll avoid
   >
   >
   >
   >>
   >
   >
   >
   >> any potential problems that might arise by combining dissimilar
   >
   >
   >
   >>
   >
   >
   >
   >> materials.
   >
   >
   >
   >>
   >
   >
   >
   >>
   >
   >
   >
   >>
   >
   >
   >
   >> Bill
   >
   >
   >
   >>
   >
   >
   >
   >>
   >
   >
   >
   >>
   >
   >
   >
   >> Athena & Bill Steen
   >
   >
   >
   >>
   >
   >
   >
   >> caneloproject@ gmail.com
   >
   >
   >
   >>
   >
   >
   >
   >> www.caneloproject. com
   >
   >
   >
   >>
   >
   >
   >
   >> www.caneloproject. blogspot. com
   >
   >
   >
   >>
   >
   >
   >
   >>
   >
   >
   >
   >>
   >
   >
   >
   >> On Dec 14, 2009, at 5:42 PM, Adam wilson wrote:
   >
   >
   >
   >>
   >
   >
   >
   >>
   >
   >
   >
   >>
   >
   >
   >
   >>>
   >
   >
   >
   >>
   >
   >
   >
   >>> Rob,
   >
   >
   >
   >>
   >
   >
   >
   >>> Thanks for the reply. The only reason I was thinking of putting on
   >
   >
   >
   >>
   >
   >
   >
   >>> the skim of joint compound was because it bonds to drywall pretty
   >
   >
   >
   >>
   >
   >
   >
   >>> well (as far as I can tell, maybe there's something I'm missing,)
   >
   >
   >
   >>
   >
   >
   >
   >>> and I could make a scratch in it with a combed trowel, possibly a
   >
   >
   >
   >>
   >
   >
   >
   >>> good mechanical key since dry wall is pretty flat. Plus my
   >
   >
   >
   >>
   >
   >
   >
   >>> girlfriend does faux finishes occasionally so we have plenty of it.
   >
   >
   >
   >>
   >
   >
   >
   >>> The backside of drywall may work better, but doing so would limit it
   >
   >
   >
   >>
   >
   >
   >
   >>> to new construction and I have remodel work in mind at the moment.
   >
   >
   >
   >>
   >
   >
   >
   >>>
   >
   >
   >
   >>
   >
   >
   >
   >>> As for gypsum being sub-par for non-gypsum plasters, probably so.
   >
   >
   >
   >>
   >
   >
   >
   >>> Blue board is made to plaster on directly, and can't just be
   >
   >
   >
   >>
   >
   >
   >
   >>> painted. I'm not sure if it's intended for gypsum plasters solely.
   >
   >
   >
   >>
   >
   >
   >
   >>> But there are lime plaster products out there being sold for drywall
   >
   >
   >
   >>
   >
   >
   >
   >>> application, so I'm sure something can make it work quite
   >
   >
   >
   >>
   >
   >
   >
   >>> satisfactory, if that's the substrate one has to work with.
   >
   >
   >
   >>
   >
   >
   >
   >>> The lime-water may be enough to do the trick, especially if the
   >
   >
   >
   >>
   >
   >
   >
   >>> coats are kept to minimal thickness.
   >
   >
   >
   >>
   >
   >
   >
   >>>
   >
   >
   >
   >>
   >
   >
   >
   >>> Adam
   >
   >
   >
   >>
   >
   >
   >
   >>>
   >
   >
   >
   >>
   >
   >
   >
   >>>> To: strawbale@listserv. repp.org; sb-r-us@yahoogroups .com
   >
   >
   >
   >>
   >
   >
   >
   >>>> From: archilogic@yahoo. ca
   >
   >
   >
   >>
   >
   >
   >
   >>>> Date: Mon, 14 Dec 2009 19:20:37 -0500
   >
   >
   >
   >>
   >
   >
   >
   >>>> Subject: [SB-r-us] Re: lime plaster on drywall? Primer?
   >
   >
   >
   >>
   >
   >
   >
   >>>>
   >
   >
   >
   >>
   >
   >
   >
   >>>> On Mon, 14 Dec 2009 18:29:18 -0500, Adam wilson <sitcomfilter@
   >
   >
   >
   >>>> hotmail.com
   >
   >
   >
   >>
   >
   >
   >
   >>>>>
   >
   >
   >
   >>
   >
   >
   >
   >>>> wrote:
   >
   >
   >
   >>
   >
   >
   >
   >>>>
   >
   >
   >
   >>
   >
   >
   >
   >>>>
   >
   >
   >
   >>
   >
   >
   >
   >>>>> I was wondering if anybody on the list has used lime on drywall,
   >
   >
   >
   >>
   >
   >
   >
   >>>>>
   >
   >
   >
   >>
   >
   >
   >
   >>>>> Originally I was going to take joint compound and lay on a thin
   >
   >
   >
   >>
   >
   >
   >
   >>>>> layer,
   >
   >
   >
   >>
   >
   >
   >
   >>>>> combing that over with a thin-set trowel to make a tiny mechanical
   >
   >
   >
   >>
   >
   >
   >
   >>>>> key,
   >
   >
   >
   >>
   >
   >
   >
   >>>>> then covering this with a watery lime putty (3% ish) to soak in
   >
   >
   >
   >>
   >
   >
   >
   >>>>> and make
   >
   >
   >
   >>
   >
   >
   >
   >>>>> a chemical bond.
   >
   >
   >
   >>
   >
   >
   >
   >>>>
   >
   >
   >
   >>
   >
   >
   >
   >>>> I have not tried using lime on drywall but I don't see putting on a
   >
   >
   >
   >>
   >
   >
   >
   >>>> skim
   >
   >
   >
   >>
   >
   >
   >
   >>>> coat of joint compound as being advantageous unless it's a setting-
   >
   >
   >
   >>
   >
   >
   >
   >>>> type
   >
   >
   >
   >>
   >
   >
   >
   >>>> compound like Durabond 90 or such like.
   >
   >
   >
   >>
   >
   >
   >
   >>>>
   >
   >
   >
   >>
   >
   >
   >
   >>>> Spackling mud provides very little in the way of bond strength. If
   >
   >
   >
   >>
   >
   >
   >
   >>>> anything, I think that it'd weaken the bond.
   >
   >
   >
   >>
   >
   >
   >
   >>>>
   >
   >
   >
   >>
   >
   >
   >
   >>>> I seem to have a vague recollection of gypsum retarding the set of
   >
   >
   >
   >>
   >
   >
   >
   >>>> non-gypsum plasters as well and as such, its use should be avoided
   >
   >
   >
   >>
   >
   >
   >
   >>>> under
   >
   >
   >
   >>
   >
   >
   >
   >>>> non-gypsum plasters. Whether that caveat applies in particular to
   >
   >
   >
   >>
   >
   >
   >
   >>>> lime, I
   >
   >
   >
   >>
   >
   >
   >
   >>>> can't recall so you may want to do some research to find out.
   >
   >
   >
   >>
   >
   >
   >
   >>>>
   >
   >
   >
   >>
   >
   >
   >
   >>>> Something that you might want to experiment with is using the
   >
   >
   >
   >>
   >
   >
   >
   >>>> backside of
   >
   >
   >
   >>
   >
   >
   >
   >>>> the drywall facing out and if necessary, use a dilute solution of
   >
   >
   >
   >>
   >
   >
   >
   >>>> Weldbond
   >
   >
   >
   >>
   >
   >
   >
   >>>> (an innocuous white glue used primarily by woodworkers) as a primer
   >
   >
   >
   >>
   >
   >
   >
   >>>> and
   >
   >
   >
   >>
   >
   >
   >
   >>>> bonding agent although I suspect, a lime wash may suffice. The
   >
   >
   >
   >>
   >
   >
   >
   >>>> brown paper
   >
   >
   >
   >>
   >
   >
   >
   >>>> on the backside is a bit tougher and has a slightly better "tooth".
   >
   >
   >
   >>
   >
   >
   >
   >>>>
   >
   >
   >
   >>
   >
   >
   >
   >>>> I'd suggest visiting a tract house construction site and ask them
   >
   >
   >
   >>
   >
   >
   >
   >>>> to send
   >
   >
   >
   >>
   >
   >
   >
   >>>> the dumpster of drywall cutoff scraps to your place and then
   >
   >
   >
   >>
   >
   >
   >
   >>>> experiment to
   >
   >
   >
   >>
   >
   >
   >
   >>>> your heart's content. They should be happy to do so because it
   >
   >
   >
   >>
   >
   >
   >
   >>>> won't cost
   >
   >
   >
   >>
   >
   >
   >
   >>>> them anything and will actually save them some money by avoiding
   >>>> the
   >
   >
   >
   >>
   >
   >
   >
   >>>> tippage fees at the landfill.
   >
   >
   >
   >>
   >
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   >>>>
   >
   >
   >
   >>
   >
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   >>>>
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   >>>>
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   >>
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   >>>>
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   >>
   >
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   >>>> --
   >
   >
   >
   >>
   >
   >
   >
   >>>> === * ===
   >
   >
   >
   >>
   >
   >
   >
   >>>> Rob Tom
   >
   >
   >
   >>
   >
   >
   >
   >>>> Kanata, Ontario, Canada
   >
   >
   >
   >>
   >
   >
   >
   >>>> <A r c h i L o g i c at Y a h o o dot c a >
   >
   >
   >
   >>
   >
   >
   >
   >>>> (manually winnow the chaff from my edress if you hit "Reply")
   >
   >
   >
   >>
   >
   >
   >
   >>>> ____________ _________ _________ _________ _________ __
   >
   >
   >
   >>
   >
   >
   >
   >>>> Do You Yahoo!?
   >
   >
   >
   >>
   >
   >
   >
   >>>> Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
   >
   >
   >
   >>
   >
   >
   >
   >>>> http://mail. yahoo.com
   >
   >
   >
   >>
   >
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   >>>>
   >
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   >>
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   >>>>
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   >>
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   >>>>
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   >>
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   >>>> ------------ --------- --------- ------
   >
   >
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   >>
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   >
   >>>>
   >
   >
   >
   >>
   >
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   >
   >>>> Yahoo! Groups Links
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   >>
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   >>>>
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   >>
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   >>>>
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   >>>>
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   >>
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   >>>
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   >>
   >
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   >
   >>> ____________ _________ _________ _________ _________ _________ _
   >
   >
   >
   >>
   >
   >
   >
   >>> Hotmail: Free, trusted and rich email service.
   >
   >
   >
   >>
   >
   >
   >
   >>> http://clk.atdmt. com/GBL/go/ 171222984/ direct/01/ _________
   >
   >
   >
   >>> _________ _________ _________ _________ __
   >
   >
   >
   >>
   >
   >
   >
   >>> Strawbale mailing list
   >
   >
   >
   >>
   >
   >
   >
   >>> Strawbale@listserv. repp.org
   >
   >
   >
   >>
   >
   >
   >
   >>> http://listserv. repp.org/ mailman/listinfo /strawbale_ listserv.
   >
   >
   >
   >>> repp.org
   >
   >
   >
   >>
   >
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   >>
   >
   >
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   >>
   >
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   >
   >> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
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   >> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
   >
   >
   >
   >>
   >
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   >>
   >
   >
   >
   >>
   >
   >
   >
   >> ------------ --------- --------- ------
   >
   >
   >
   >>
   >
   >
   >
   >> Yahoo! Groups Links
   >
   >
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   >>
   >
   >
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   >>
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   >>
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   > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
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   > __________________________________________________________
   > Your E-mail and More On-the-Go. Get Windows Live Hotmail Free.
   > http://clk.atdmt.com/GBL/go/171222985/direct/01/
   >
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   >
   >
   >
   > ------------------------------------
   >
   > Yahoo! Groups Links
   >
   >
   >





[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Adam,
Two things, the first is that the supplier that we've used for
waterglass products is Eco-House in Canada.  www.eco-house.com
I should point out that there are not many of their products that we
use.  First of all we almost never paint walls.  The main product that
we use is their Prima Sil which we dilute with water and add pigments
to either touch up fresco color or to fresco a lime plastered wall
that was to dry to accept the color otherwise.
I'm trying a new product that is supposed to work even better for that
application called Silazur Exterior Wall Stain.  I don't use it for
waterproofing walls, typically we use other methods.

As for David Gray's comments about the similarity of sodium silicate
and potassium silicate I would have to say that I can't answer that,
at least for now.  What I can say is that I will find out and get an
answer.  Another thing that I will add is that I've never found either
one very good for water repellency with the exception of the Eco-
House's product that has an addition of siloxane.

By the way David, I am not European trained, not in the least.  Quite
the opposite.

Now back to the lime on drywall.  At the moment I have a young
plasterer here from Japan that we are working with.  Of all things
we're doing a polished lime plaster, the method comes out of Italy.
Anyhow, we are doing it over a base of powdered gypsum - hot mud - 90
minute set.  In our discussion as to why, he answered that he likes
the gypsum for the strength it gives to the taped joints and any areas
such as recesses caused by the screws.  Keep in mind that this is a
highly polished wall that requires a lot of repetitive trowel
movements with pressure and may not be the same for a normal plaster
application.  So I thought I would pass his comments on to the lists.

Bill
Athena & Bill Steen
caneloproject@...
www.caneloproject.com
www.caneloproject.blogspot.com




On Dec 15, 2009, at 5:55 PM, Adam wilson wrote:

>
> I'm glad Bill brought this up, about the difference of sodium and
> potassium silicates.  I was looking to source this material online
> and came across the claim that they function the same.  Took it
> hook, line, and sinker.  The real world difference between the too...
> Here's a link to the supposed history of modern use of potassium
> silicate (water glass), on a mineral paint manufacturer's website.
>
> http://www.keim.com/AboutUs/tabid/65/Default.aspx#history
>
> I'm curious what new "binder development" they came up with in 2002
> that "opens up entirely new areas of application for silicate paints."
>
> Any good online sources for potassium silicate?  Has anyone tried
> making pigmented sealer coats like the kind Keim offers on their
> website?  Anybody use the Keim products before?
>
> Sincerely,
> Adam Wilson
>
>
> To: SB-r-us@yahoogroups.com
> From: ndgray@...
> Date: Tue, 15 Dec 2009 15:44:09 -0800
> Subject: Re: [Strawbale] [SB-r-us] Re: lime plaster on drywall?
> Primer?
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>      Damn Bill, I should have kept my mouth shut.
>
>
>
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sodium_silicate
>
>
>
> I knew you meant interior about the lime plaster stuff.
>
>
>
> But now you have me really confused about waterglass.  As far as I
> can tell, sodium silicate is waterglass, and does a good job
> protecting by binding to the sand in the clay.  We did two coats as
> recommended by the manufacturer.  Blasting a hose on the unprotected
> surface erodes it, blasting on the waterglass treated surface
> protects.
>
> Potassium silicate?  I can't say anything about it in this regard,
> except it is not known as waterglass.  Maybe wiki is goofy, but
> other sources say the same.
>
> Maybe you just got them backwards.  I do that a lot.  Best, David Gray
>
>
>
> --- On Tue, 12/15/09, Athena & Bill Steen <absteen@...>
> wrote:
>
>
>
> From: Athena & Bill Steen <absteen@...>
>
> Subject: Re: [Strawbale] [SB-r-us] Re: lime plaster on drywall?
> Primer?
>
> To: SB-r-us@yahoogroups.com
>
> Date: Tuesday, December 15, 2009, 11:24 AM
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> David,
>
>
>
> I should have qualified that since we were talking about drywall I was
>
>
>
> referring to interior wall surfaces.
>
>
>
> If you were going to use it outside then you'd better have something
>
>
>
> waterproof in mind, but exterior surfaces are usually better lathed in
>
>
>
> one way or another.
>
>
>
> Getting back to interior walls, starch glue is often the weakest, but
>
>
>
> used to work for many many years to adhere wall paper for the long
> term.
>
>
>
> So it would depend upon thickness of plaster, quality of the plaster
>
>
>
> and application and whatever the plaster will be subjected to.
>
>
>
> As for the sodium silicate chances are it will not do much.  People
>
>
>
> somehow got waterglass (potassium siliicate) confused with sodium
>
>
>
> silicate and  surmised it would do the same thing.  In my experience
>
>
>
> it does not.  Even a company like Eco-house in Canada that sells
>
>
>
> waterglass products adds a touch of siloxane to their exterior
>
>
>
> waterglass treatment for waterproofing.
>
>
>
> Bill
>
>
>
> Athena & Bill Steen
>
>
>
> caneloproject@ gmail.com
>
>
>
> www.caneloproject. com
>
>
>
> www.caneloproject. blogspot. com
>
>
>
> On Dec 15, 2009, at 10:37 AM, Nancy or David Gray wrote:
>
>
>
>> So in summation, paint or spray on some PVA (poly vinyl acetate), or
>
>
>
>> casein glue, or even some wheat paste recipe a la Cedar Rose,  and
>
>
>
>> then put on whatever you damn well please, as long as it is an
>
>
>
>> interior surface.  Or is this a bit too brash?
>
>
>
>> Just to add, had the pleasure of helping with an exterior clay
>
>
>
>> plaster on straw, and sprayed two coats of sodium silicate, aka
>
>
>
>> waterglass, to help deter wind-driven rain.  The finish hasn't been
>
>
>
>> sorely tested yet, but promises to deliver as advertised if
>
>
>
>> experience with non wind-driven rains so far is any indication.
>
>
>
>> David Gray
>
>
>
>>
>
>
>
>> --- On Tue, 12/15/09, Athena & Bill Steen <absteen@dakotacom. net>
>
>
>
>> wrote:
>
>
>
>>
>
>
>
>> From: Athena & Bill Steen <absteen@dakotacom. net>
>
>
>
>> Subject: Re: [Strawbale] [SB-r-us] Re: lime plaster on drywall?
>
>
>
>> Primer?
>
>
>
>> To: "Adam wilson" <sitcomfilter@ hotmail.com>
>
>
>
>> Cc: sb-r-us@yahoogroups .com, strawbale@listserv. repp.org
>
>
>
>> Date: Tuesday, December 15, 2009, 8:06 AM
>
>
>
>>
>
>
>
>>
>
>
>
>>
>
>
>
>>
>
>
>
>>
>
>
>
>>
>
>
>
>>
>
>
>
>>
>
>
>
>>
>
>
>
>>
>
>
>
>>
>
>
>
>>
>
>
>
>>
>
>
>
>>
>
>
>
>>
>
>
>
>>
>
>
>
>>
>
>
>
>>     Adam,
>
>
>
>>
>
>
>
>> If you look into the ingredients of joint compound what you're going
>
>
>
>>
>
>
>
>> to find is that main ingredients are gypsum, limestone, chalk, talc,
>
>
>
>>
>
>
>
>> perlite and mica powder or some variation of those ingredients.
>
>
>
>>
>
>
>
>> Anyhow, they will not magically adhere to a paper surface without the
>
>
>
>>
>
>
>
>> aid of another critical ingredient.  That magical ingredient is known
>
>
>
>>
>
>
>
>> as polyvinyl acetate or white glue.  So in essence what you need is
>
>
>
>>
>
>
>
>> some way to glue your plaster to the drywall.  I think many people
>> are
>
>
>
>>
>
>
>
>> fooled in that if you apply a plaster to drywall, especially the back
>
>
>
>>
>
>
>
>> side, it will initially stick and look good.  It can even remain
>> there
>
>
>
>>
>
>
>
>> for sometime.  However, with fluctuations in moisture, temperature
>> and
>
>
>
>>
>
>
>
>> abrasive contact, that plaster can/will easily delaminate.
>
>
>
>>
>
>
>
>>
>
>
>
>>
>
>
>
>> So if you want to do a lime plaster I'd suggest you go straight to
>> the
>
>
>
>>
>
>
>
>> surface with the lime plaster.  I don't necessarily like to add the
>
>
>
>>
>
>
>
>> glue to the mix of the plaster unless it is something that doesn't
>
>
>
>>
>
>
>
>> alter the behavior and setting time of the plaster.  I much prefer to
>
>
>
>>
>
>
>
>> paint it on the wall first and then plaster over it.  As for the glue
>
>
>
>>
>
>
>
>> you choose, the choice is yours. Like duty glues such as a starch
>
>
>
>>
>
>
>
>> paste can work, there are numerous variations of polyvinyl acetate on
>
>
>
>>
>
>
>
>> the market whether they be concrete bonder, etc or you can go to a
>
>
>
>>
>
>
>
>> casein glue.
>
>
>
>>
>
>
>
>>
>
>
>
>>
>
>
>
>> That would be the approach that I recommend and I think you'll avoid
>
>
>
>>
>
>
>
>> any potential problems that might arise by combining dissimilar
>
>
>
>>
>
>
>
>> materials.
>
>
>
>>
>
>
>
>>
>
>
>
>>
>
>
>
>> Bill
>
>
>
>>
>
>
>
>>
>
>
>
>>
>
>
>
>> Athena & Bill Steen
>
>
>
>>
>
>
>
>> caneloproject@ gmail.com
>
>
>
>>
>
>
>
>> www.caneloproject. com
>
>
>
>>
>
>
>
>> www.caneloproject. blogspot. com
>
>
>
>>
>
>
>
>>
>
>
>
>>
>
>
>
>> On Dec 14, 2009, at 5:42 PM, Adam wilson wrote:
>
>
>
>>
>
>
>
>>
>
>
>
>>
>
>
>
>>>
>
>
>
>>
>
>
>
>>> Rob,
>
>
>
>>
>
>
>
>>> Thanks for the reply.  The only reason I was thinking of putting on
>
>
>
>>
>
>
>
>>> the skim of joint compound was because it bonds to drywall pretty
>
>
>
>>
>
>
>
>>> well (as far as I can tell, maybe there's something I'm missing,)
>
>
>
>>
>
>
>
>>> and I could make a scratch in it with a combed trowel, possibly a
>
>
>
>>
>
>
>
>>> good mechanical key since dry wall is pretty flat.  Plus my
>
>
>
>>
>
>
>
>>> girlfriend does faux finishes occasionally so we have plenty of it.
>
>
>
>>
>
>
>
>>> The backside of drywall may work better, but doing so would limit it
>
>
>
>>
>
>
>
>>> to new construction and I have remodel work in mind at the moment.
>
>
>
>>
>
>
>
>>>
>
>
>
>>
>
>
>
>>> As for gypsum being sub-par for non-gypsum plasters, probably so.
>
>
>
>>
>
>
>
>>> Blue board is made to plaster on directly, and can't just be
>
>
>
>>
>
>
>
>>> painted.  I'm not sure if it's intended for gypsum plasters solely.
>
>
>
>>
>
>
>
>>> But there are lime plaster products out there being sold for drywall
>
>
>
>>
>
>
>
>>> application, so I'm sure something can make it work quite
>
>
>
>>
>
>
>
>>> satisfactory, if that's the substrate one has to work with.
>
>
>
>>
>
>
>
>>> The lime-water may be enough to do the trick, especially if the
>
>
>
>>
>
>
>
>>> coats are kept to minimal thickness.
>
>
>
>>
>
>
>
>>>
>
>
>
>>
>
>
>
>>> Adam
>
>
>
>>
>
>
>
>>>
>
>
>
>>
>
>
>
>>>> To: strawbale@listserv. repp.org; sb-r-us@yahoogroups .com
>
>
>
>>
>
>
>
>>>> From: archilogic@yahoo. ca
>
>
>
>>
>
>
>
>>>> Date: Mon, 14 Dec 2009 19:20:37 -0500
>
>
>
>>
>
>
>
>>>> Subject: [SB-r-us] Re: lime plaster on drywall?  Primer?
>
>
>
>>
>
>
>
>>>>
>
>
>
>>
>
>
>
>>>> On Mon, 14 Dec 2009 18:29:18 -0500, Adam wilson <sitcomfilter@
>
>
>
>>>> hotmail.com
>
>
>
>>
>
>
>
>>>>>
>
>
>
>>
>
>
>
>>>> wrote:
>
>
>
>>
>
>
>
>>>>
>
>
>
>>
>
>
>
>>>>
>
>
>
>>
>
>
>
>>>>> I was wondering if anybody on the list has used lime on drywall,
>
>
>
>>
>
>
>
>>>>>
>
>
>
>>
>
>
>
>>>>> Originally I was going to take joint compound and lay on a thin
>
>
>
>>
>
>
>
>>>>> layer,
>
>
>
>>
>
>
>
>>>>> combing that over with a thin-set trowel to make a tiny mechanical
>
>
>
>>
>
>
>
>>>>> key,
>
>
>
>>
>
>
>
>>>>> then covering this with a watery lime putty (3% ish) to soak in
>
>
>
>>
>
>
>
>>>>> and make
>
>
>
>>
>
>
>
>>>>> a chemical bond.
>
>
>
>>
>
>
>
>>>>
>
>
>
>>
>
>
>
>>>> I have not tried using lime on drywall but I don't see putting on a
>
>
>
>>
>
>
>
>>>> skim
>
>
>
>>
>
>
>
>>>> coat of joint compound as being advantageous unless it's a setting-
>
>
>
>>
>
>
>
>>>> type
>
>
>
>>
>
>
>
>>>> compound like Durabond 90 or such like.
>
>
>
>>
>
>
>
>>>>
>
>
>
>>
>
>
>
>>>> Spackling mud provides very little in the way of bond strength. If
>
>
>
>>
>
>
>
>>>> anything, I think that it'd weaken the bond.
>
>
>
>>
>
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>>>> --
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>>>> === * ===
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>>>> Rob Tom
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>>>> Kanata, Ontario, Canada
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>>>> <A r c h i L o g i c  at  Y a h o o  dot  c a >
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>>>> (manually winnow the chaff from my edress if you hit "Reply")
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>>>> ____________ _________ _________ _________ _________ __
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>>>> Do You Yahoo!?
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>>
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>>>> Tired of spam?  Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
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>>>> http://mail. yahoo.com
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>>>>
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>>>>
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>>>> ------------ --------- --------- ------
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>>>>
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>>>> Yahoo! Groups Links
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>>>
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>>> ____________ _________ _________ _________ _________ _________ _
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>>> Hotmail: Free, trusted and rich email service.
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>>> http://clk.atdmt. com/GBL/go/ 171222984/ direct/01/ _________
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>>> _________ _________ _________ _________ __
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>>> Strawbale mailing list
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>>> Strawbale@listserv. repp.org
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>>> http://listserv. repp.org/ mailman/listinfo /strawbale_ listserv.
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>>> repp.org
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>> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
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>> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
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>> ------------ --------- --------- ------
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>> Yahoo! Groups Links
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> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
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> _________________________________________________________________
> Your E-mail and More On-the-Go. Get Windows Live Hotmail Free.
> http://clk.atdmt.com/GBL/go/171222985/direct/01/
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
>
> ------------------------------------
>
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>

This is the epitome of,  "it is never too late to have a happy childhood."
These guys need to get the Nobel piece prize.  I am wondering about finishes
exterior and interior.  Ideas?
I am impressed that Bruce King is on their board.  That speaks volumes.
 David Gray

--- On Thu, 12/17/09, kyounge1956 <karenyounge@...> wrote:

From: kyounge1956 <karenyounge@...>
Subject: [SB-r-us] Fwd: Re:  Lego blocks from Straw
To: SB-r-us@yahoogroups.com
Date: Thursday, December 17, 2009, 2:51 PM







 









       Ooooh, that's very interesting. I think my back might prefer a 30-lb block
to a 75 lb bale. I've sent off an email to the manufacturer asking when the
blocks are likely to be commercially available. I'll let the group know what I
hear from them.

Karen



--- In SB-r-us@yahoogroups .com, RT <archilogic@ ...> wrote:

>

>

>

> ------- Forwarded message -------

> From: "Mark Piepkorn" <duckchow@.. .>

> To: Greenbuilding@ ...

> Cc:

> Subject: Re: [Greenbuilding] Lego blocks from Straw

> Date: Thu, 17 Dec 2009 10:15:37 -0500

>

> Frank Tettemer wrote:

> > I tried to find that article, in EBN, without success.  Do you have a

> > link to it? I would love to learn more.

>

> Mark Piepkorn has shared the following member-only page from

> BuildingGreen Suite. If you find this page valuable, we encourage you to

> become a member <http://www.building green.com/ ecommerce/ bgsuite.cfm>!

>

> Use this link to view the page for *"Lego Blocks from Straw"*:

> http://www.building green.com/ auth/article. cfm/2009/ 12/1/Lego- Blocks-from-
Straw/?&accessCo de=nyhams

> <http://www.building green.com/ auth/article. cfm/2009/ 12/1/Lego-
Blocks-from- Straw/?&accessCo de=nyhams>

>

>

>

> --

> === * ===

> Rob Tom

> Kanata, Ontario, Canada

> <A r c h i L o g i c  at  Y a h o o  dot  c a >

> (manually winnow the chaff from my edress if you hit "Reply")

> ____________ _________ _________ _________ _________ __

> Do You Yahoo!?

> Tired of spam?  Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around

> http://mail. yahoo.com

>






















[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Karen,
       Thanks. I like the article. I think the surplus shipping container are a
good and cheap way for structure  strentgh and strawbale is a good insulation.
The marriage of the too is natural and efficient.
Paul

--- In SB-r-us@yahoogroups.com, "kyounge1956" <karenyounge@...> wrote:
>
> Oops, forgot your second question. The name of the group "cheap-shelters" and
deals with all sorts of economical housing, not just those built from straw bale
and/or cargo containers.
>
> Karen
>
> --- In SB-r-us@yahoogroups.com, "paulwhui" <paulwhui@> wrote:
> >
> > Karen,
> >       I like to see a copy and what is the name of the straw bale container 
group?
> > Paul
> >
> > --- In SB-r-us@yahoogroups.com, "kyounge1956" <karenyounge@> wrote:
> > >
> > > I'm a member of another yahoo group and a discussion of combining shipping
containers and straw bales for a low-cost structure has come up. There is a pdf
in the Files section here called "Cladding a Shipping Container with Straw
Bales" which I think would contribute to the thread at the other group. Is it OK
to put a copy over there?
> > >
> > > Also, can anyone tell me how this building has held up?
> > >
> > > Thanks,
> > > Karen
> >
> > =============
> > Karen;
> >
> > IIRC, the information in the file was provided initially by bbbBob Bolles
and Preston of the Mojave and it is they who should be contacted for permission.
(Unfortunately I don't have their e-dresses on the tips on my fingers but they
are on this List and you should be able to find some of their messages in the
archives and contact them directly.
> >
> > One of yo' List Mommas.
> > =============
> >
>

Ooooh, that's very interesting. I think my back might prefer a 30-lb block to a
75 lb bale. I've sent off an email to the manufacturer asking when the blocks
are likely to be commercially available. I'll let the group know what I hear
from them.
Karen



--- In SB-r-us@yahoogroups.com, RT <archilogic@...> wrote:
>
>
>
> ------- Forwarded message -------
> From: "Mark Piepkorn" <duckchow@...>
> To: Greenbuilding@...
> Cc:
> Subject: Re: [Greenbuilding] Lego blocks from Straw
> Date: Thu, 17 Dec 2009 10:15:37 -0500
>
> Frank Tettemer wrote:
> > I tried to find that article, in EBN, without success.  Do you have a
> > link to it? I would love to learn more.
>
> Mark Piepkorn has shared the following member-only page from
> BuildingGreen Suite. If you find this page valuable, we encourage you to
> become a member <http://www.buildinggreen.com/ecommerce/bgsuite.cfm>!
>
> Use this link to view the page for *"Lego Blocks from Straw"*:
>
http://www.buildinggreen.com/auth/article.cfm/2009/12/1/Lego-Blocks-from-Straw/?\
&accessCode=nyhams
>
<http://www.buildinggreen.com/auth/article.cfm/2009/12/1/Lego-Blocks-from-Straw/\
?&accessCode=nyhams>
>
>
>
> --
> === * ===
> Rob Tom
> Kanata, Ontario, Canada
> <A r c h i L o g i c  at  Y a h o o  dot  c a >
> (manually winnow the chaff from my edress if you hit "Reply")
> __________________________________________________
> Do You Yahoo!?
> Tired of spam?  Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
> http://mail.yahoo.com
>