Hi Steve.  I completely understand your point of view, so I'd like to express my
sincere distaste for lumping Judaism, with Islam and Christianity … either by
saying the Abrahamic faiths or using the term Judeo-Christian.  While I no
longer consider myself a part of the Jewish religion, it was my root spiritual
base before expanding my consciousness out of the realm of religion and my
change of view when reaching the age of 15 regarding the bible.

The one specific difference that applies to your post is that traditionally,
conversion to Judaism is frowned upon; they definitely do not seek converts or
attempt to convert others, and those who seek out becoming Jewish and asking for
conversion must go through rigorous education and examination before it will
even be accepted (and then only by some groups of Jews).  Since Judaism itself
has been watered down to several sects as well, there may be easier methods of
conversion among some "reform" congregations, but these are not accepted by
Traditionalists.  The only reason most Rabbaim "Jewish Clergy" would even
consider conversion is when a Jewish man insists on marrying a non-Jewish
female; since Judaism is decided by the Mother, it would be done for the reason
of having the children accepted as Jewish.  There are still many Jewish
traditionalists that would not even consider allowing conversion or consider a
"convert" actually Jewish.

Just some insight as many other faiths do not have any clue about Traditional
Judaism.
I do not take any offense, so please do not take any of this post as such.  I
simply wanted to state a point.
Thanks,
Aaron

On Dec 18, 2011, at 8:21 PM, yzermongol wrote:

> Hello Andrew,
>
> I wanted to respond to your post- just to try to give you an indigenous
perspective. The Abrahamic faiths (Christianity, Judaism, and Islam) are all
open to converts and sometimes even force people into conversion. Allowing
others to follow their belief system is normal for their faith and is often
encouraged. When a person is raised around faiths like this, it is difficult to
understand how other spiritual traditions might not be as welcoming to converts
or sharing their sacred traditions.
> However, many indigenous people see their traditions as part of their cultural
and racial identity. There is no concept of conversion and they would really be
shocked and curious if someone approached them with the idea. Furthermore, it
can be a sore-spot for those who had their lands appropriated and other
atrocities done to their people. In their view, enough has already been "taken"
from them. "Borrowing ceremonies" often falls into this catagory from their
point of view.
> It is difficult to clearly understand others that are raised with a different
world view. So although you might not be offended if people tried out runes, you
are coming from a different perspective than many native people. Just food for
thought.
>
> --- In ShamanicWays@yahoogroups.com, andrew docker <see2dream@...> wrote:
> >
> > Hi Aaron,
> >
> > In a sense that is what I am trying to get at, and obviously I feel that
your direct experiences in that area are different from mine-and undoubtedly
more knowledgeable. The 'despacho' thing is not the real thing either-but does
it matter?.
> >
> >
> > Some years ago I was involved in organising lectures on various metaphysical
subjects in Manchester, We had Warren Kenton speak twice, and our private
conversations were very memorable. There were many elders and rabbis of that
faith present, and what an amazing interplay of ideas and theories-I will never
forget it. My son, who was very young then still talks about it.
> >
> >
> > 'but rather take the stand that it doesn't matter because it's simply not
the same thing!' Thats exactly what I mean Aaron! Instead of fooling around
blaming those terrible white usurpers of indigenous knowledge, why can't we
celebrate the spreading of knowledge throughout the world-knowledge that frees
humanity from bondage, and lets the soul fly free.
> >
> >
> > Are we on a spiritual quest, or wrapping ourselves up in base mundane
bickering? Why don't we take all the good and work on that. When I talk to
spirit, it never refuses to let me in,or ask me what language I speak, it is
universal. Should I ignore the teaching contacts that have been with me for many
years because they are not of my present geographical location? Have I always
manifested on earth in this location? No... I think that we have to look way
beyond the petty minor tensions and see the universal picture-we are all One!
> >
> > How can we carry our work forward if we shackle ourselves with chains of
ignorance?
> >
> >
> > Andrew
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > ________________________________
> > From: Aaron <aaronreid19103@...>
> > To: ShamanicWays@yahoogroups.com
> > Sent: Sunday, 18 December 2011, 22:53
> > Subject: Re: [Shamanic Ways] Fwd: FREE Despacho Kit: Buy 4 Kits Get 1 Free
Offer Extended Through December 31
> >
> > Andrew,
> >
> > I'm in almost complete agreement, especially with your last paragraph.
> > I do have to say that there is one thing with which we have a different
experience; you wrote:
> > > "It is similar to the adption of the Quabalah as a system of knowledge by
the west. However, those who celebrate it in its original form that I know are
pleased that it has been adopted as a system of self-development, and claim no
ownership as they see all higher knowledge as being the divine right of humanity
in general."
> > >
> > I grew up in a traditionally Jewish environment and the "Quabalah" being
thrown around is definitely NOT respected among traditional Hebrew scholars. 
While I will agree that they are more tolerant than some and don't outwardly or
publicly object to these practices, it is because they believe the "Quabalah"
that was made popular in the past couple decades is just a watered down, untrue
version of Kabbalah.  Even my father, who is a Hebrew scholar will not study
Kabbalah as he doesn't even feel he is someone who should delve into such
teachings.  So, the main difference is that they don't hem and haw about their
tradition being stolen, but rather take the stand that it doesn't matter because
it's simply not the same thing.
> >
> > Blessings,
> > Aaron
> >
> > On Dec 18, 2011, at 2:55 PM, andrew docker wrote:
> >
> > > And therefore not to be taken so seriously then I would have
> > > thought! It is similar to the adption of the Quabalah as a system of
> > > knowledge by the west. However, those who celebrate it in its original
> > > form that I know are pleased that it has been adopted as a system of
> > > self-development, and claim no ownership as they see all higher
> > > knowledge as being the divine right of humanity in general. I really
> > > don't see why the strong feelings here. If I collect items available to
> > > me locally for my workings (as I do) then that is essentially the same
> > > thing as she sells-and it is a common world-wide practice. If I saw a
> > > post on here from a person of that belief that criticised her actions
> > > then fair enough-but I don't think I have yet.
> > >
> > > If I minded people making runesets and calling them runes even though they
are not of my culture or beliefs, then I would be kept very busy
> > > complaining. I have spoken to wise people of other cultures to myself
> > > who feel strongly that their knowledge can be the key to humanities
> > > evolution and understanding (that is why they teach), and I have not
> > > heard these concerns mentioned.
> > >
> > > I think I would rather look outwards at the common similarities amongst
> > > those who work for good than pick over words. The world in a sense is
> > > shrinking and to me anything (like this even) that provokes thought in
> > > people and causes them to explore for themselves has to be good. Ok-she
> > > may make a little money-but if it leads to a few people opening their
> > > perceptions then for one I don't really care!
> > >
> > > Andrew
> > >
> > > ________________________________
> > > From: Branwyn ni
> > >
> > > ________________________________
> > > From: Branwyn ni Druaidh <welshwmn3@...>
> > > To: ShamanicWays@yahoogroups.com
> > > Sent: Sunday, 18 December 2011, 17:29
> > > Subject: Re: [Shamanic Ways] Fwd: FREE Despacho Kit: Buy 4 Kits Get 1 Free
Offer Extended Through December 31
> > >
> > > "There is no religion associated with prayer bundles, they're compatible
> > > with all beliefs."
> > >
> > > That is patently untrue.  The despachos are part of
> > > the indigenous Incan/Inkan religious practices.  The religion is very
> > > strong in in the worship/reverence of the Directions, the Mountains,
Nature
> > > et al.  To say that the despachos have no religious association is to say
> > > that the Pipe Ceremony has no religious association, that the Blessing Way
> > > has no religious association, that the Roman Catholic "Last Rights" have
no
> > > religious association.
> > >
> > > This appears to be another example of a white person taking what they want
> > > of the teachings of the indigenous people, dropping what they don't want,
> > > and selling and profiting from things they don't truly understand.
> > >
> > > *sighs*
> > > Bronwen
> > >
> > > On Sun, Dec 18, 2011 at 2:02 AM, andrew docker <see2dream@...>wrote:
> > >
> > > > **
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > 'To bring about change in accordance with the will'. That is the
accepted
> > > > definition of magical practice.
> > > >
> > > > I don't see anything strange about this. Isn't it similar to people
> > > > charging money for courses etc? I feel that if it opens peoples eyes to
the
> > > > potential of changing their lives for the better then how can it be
strange
> > > > or different from buying a book?
> > > >
> > > > Andy
> > > >
> > > > ________________________________
> > > > From: Nick Noble Wolf <true_dog@...>
> > > > To: Shamanic Ways <ShamanicWays@yahoogroups.com>
> > > > Sent: Friday, 16 December 2011, 13:46
> > > > Subject: [Shamanic Ways] Fwd: FREE Despacho Kit: Buy 4 Kits Get 1 Free
> > > > Offer Extended Through December 31
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > I just received the following spam. I was pretty weirded out. Then I
> > > > went to her site (www.prayerbundles.com <http://www.prayerbundles.com>).
> > > > Now I am speechless.
> > > >
> > > > What do you think?
> > > >
> > > > Blessings,
> > > > ~Nick
> > > >
> > > > -------- Original Message --------
> > > > Subject: FREE Despacho Kit: Buy 4 Kits Get 1 Free Offer Extended
> > > > Through December 31
> > > > Date: Wed, 14 Dec 2011 17:12:11 -0800
> > > > From: Kerri Colegrove <prayerbundles@...>
> > > > To: undisclosed-recipients:;
> > > >
> > > > Seasons Greetings,
> > > >
> > > > FREE Despacho Kits are very popular this holiday season with the *Buy 4
> > > > Kits Get 1 Free* Holiday Sale -- so we've extended this sale to Dec 31.
> > > >
> > > > In addition to personal use, offering despacho ceremonies to your
> > > > community is a great way to build your practice. Here's what an
> > > > Australian shamanic practitioner wrote...
> > > >
> > > > "I have just started offering Despacho Ceremonies within my
> > > > business - and I have to say, my clients LOVE them. How
> > > > blessed we are for this training AND how blessed I am to
> > > > know you and your books! xoxoxo"
> > > >
> > > > *To take advantage of the Buy 4 Kits Get 1 Free sale call (310) 237-2421
> > > > <tel:%28310%29%20237-2421> or email: prayerbundles@...
> > > > <mailto:prayerbundles@...>.* Let us know what kits you'd like and
> > > > we'll send you an invoice and the kits will follow.
> > > >
> > > > We have over a dozen despacho kits now in stock, each with very unique
> > > > and specific action, including:
> > > >
> > > > *Ayni Abundance Kit* -- Put your entire New Year's wish list into this
> > > > one, then make one monthly to keep big blessings flowing
> > > > to you all year.
> > > > *Aya Death Kit -- *To celebrate traditional passing or _for those
> > > > wanting a "new life"_, these kits make an extra beautiful despacho.
> > > > *Cuti (Protection) Kit* -- _Gets rid of toxic energy_ others have sent
> > > > to you (usually unwittingly) via anger, resentment, envy, etc.,
> > > > a must for everyone at least once.
> > > > *Wiska (Freedom) Kit* -- _Unsticks energy vampires and such_, a must for
> > > > everyone at least once. Fun to make.
> > > > *House Cleanse Kit* - Combine this one and the two above, wiska and
> > > > cuti, for a *Giant Triple Cleanse* to start the New Year off
> > > > squeaky clean energetically. _Great
> > > > help for selling a house_.
> > > > *Feminine Healing Kit* - Transforms emotional trauma into strength,
> > > > _helps men get in better touch with their feelings_.
> > > > *Masculine Healing Kit* - Gals, empowers you by empowering your inner
> > > > masculine. Guys, great for your career.
> > > > *Wedding Celebration Kit* -- Brings extra blessings to newlyweds.
> > > > *Birth Celebration Kit* -- Brings extra blessings to newborn babes.
> > > > *New Path Kit *-- To support a big direction change in life.
> > > > *Money Kit* -- Special action to attract more money.
> > > > *Mastery of Time Kit* -- People who make this one have discovered extra
> > > > time, gets you in right relationship with time so you
> > > > have _plenty of time for everything_!
> > > > *Bee Kit* -- Honors the energetic archetype of the bee to help you
> > > > foster more community and productivity -- great for business.
> > > >
> > > > The Ayni Kit is $35. All other kits are $37 each. Shipping for 5 kits is
> > > > $20.
> > > >
> > > > To*Buy 4 Kits Get 1 Free, call (310) 237-2421 <tel:%28310%29%20237-2421>
> > > > or email: prayerbundles@... <mailto:prayerbundles@...>.*
> > > > Give us a list of the kits you want so we can send you an invoice and
> > > > then the kits. We will confirm your order within 24 hours. If you have
> > > > any questions please call.
> > > >
> > > > Thank you to all our customers and friends for making 2011 such a great
> > > > year for us. We look forward to helping make 2012 a great year for you.
> > > >
> > > > --
> > > > Kerri Colegrove
> > > > Prayer Bundles
> > > > (310) 237-2421 <tel:%28310%29%20237-2421>
> > > > www.prayerbundles.com <http://www.prayerbundles.com>
> > > > Ignite Your Life!
> > > >
> > > > To receive no more emails from Prayer Bundles, reply to this email with
> > > > the message "unsubscribe." Thank you.
> > > >
> > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> > > >
> > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > >
> > > --
> > > Per pale argent and purpure, two phoenixes counterchanged sable and argent
> > > each rising from flames proper.
> > >
> > > "It is sometimes the most fragile things that have the power to endure and
> > > become sources of strength."
> > > - May Sarton
> > >
> > > "Only a life lived in the service to others is worth living."- Albert
> > > Einstein
> > >
> > > "Out of clutter, find Simplicity. From discord, find Harmony. In the
middle
> > > of difficulty lies opportunity." - Albert Einstein
> > >
> > > "And the day came when the risk to remain tight in a bud was more painful
> > > than the risk it took to blossom." - Anais Nin
> > >
> > > "Go confidently in the direction of your dreams. Live the life you have
> > > imagined." - Henry David Thoreau
> > >
> > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> > >
> > > ------------------------------------
> > >
> > > Note that all attachments are removed to minimize the possible spread of
viruses.Yahoo! Groups Links
> > >
> > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> > >
> > >
> > >
> >
> >
> >
> > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> >
> >
> >
> > ------------------------------------
> >
> > Note that all attachments are removed to minimize the possible spread of
viruses.Yahoo! Groups Links
> >
> >
> >
> > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> >
>
>



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Hi Andrew,

Since reading your clarification, I have to agree that any spiritual development
is wonderful.  So many Traditionalist's see the watered down version of their
ways as an insult (or worse); I would guess mostly because of all the points
brought up by both Branwyn and Steve.  While I definitely respect indigenous
traditions and their right to "claim" their language and practices; I agree with
you that it is much more productive to just look upon these practitioners as
simply doing something completely different.

Aaron
On Dec 18, 2011, at 7:33 PM, andrew docker wrote:

> Hi Aaron,
>
> In a sense that is what I am trying to get at, and obviously I feel that your
direct experiences in that area are different from mine-and undoubtedly more
knowledgeable. The 'despacho' thing is not the real thing either-but does it
matter?.
>
> Some years ago I was involved in organising lectures on various metaphysical
subjects in Manchester, We had Warren Kenton speak twice, and our private
conversations were very memorable. There were many elders and rabbis of that
faith present, and what an amazing interplay of ideas and theories-I will never
forget it. My son, who was very young then still talks about it.
>
> 'but rather take the stand that it doesn't matter because it's simply not the
same thing!' Thats exactly what I mean Aaron! Instead of fooling around blaming
those terrible white usurpers of indigenous knowledge, why can't we celebrate
the spreading of knowledge throughout the world-knowledge that frees humanity
from bondage, and lets the soul fly free.
>
> Are we on a spiritual quest, or wrapping ourselves up in base mundane
bickering? Why don't we take all the good and work on that. When I talk to
spirit, it never refuses to let me in,or ask me what language I speak, it is
universal. Should I ignore the teaching contacts that have been with me for many
years because they are not of my present geographical location? Have I always
manifested on earth in this location? No... I think that we have to look way
beyond the petty minor tensions and see the universal picture-we are all One!
>
> How can we carry our work forward if we shackle ourselves with chains of
ignorance?
>
> Andrew
>
> ________________________________
> From: Aaron <aaronreid19103@...>
> To: ShamanicWays@yahoogroups.com
> Sent: Sunday, 18 December 2011, 22:53
> Subject: Re: [Shamanic Ways] Fwd: FREE Despacho Kit: Buy 4 Kits Get 1 Free
Offer Extended Through December 31
>
> Andrew,
>
> I'm in almost complete agreement, especially with your last paragraph.
> I do have to say that there is one thing with which we have a different
experience; you wrote:
> > "It is similar to the adption of the Quabalah as a system of knowledge by
the west. However, those who celebrate it in its original form that I know are
pleased that it has been adopted as a system of self-development, and claim no
ownership as they see all higher knowledge as being the divine right of humanity
in general."
> >
> I grew up in a traditionally Jewish environment and the "Quabalah" being
thrown around is definitely NOT respected among traditional Hebrew scholars. 
While I will agree that they are more tolerant than some and don't outwardly or
publicly object to these practices, it is because they believe the "Quabalah"
that was made popular in the past couple decades is just a watered down, untrue
version of Kabbalah.  Even my father, who is a Hebrew scholar will not study
Kabbalah as he doesn't even feel he is someone who should delve into such
teachings.  So, the main difference is that they don't hem and haw about their
tradition being stolen, but rather take the stand that it doesn't matter because
it's simply not the same thing.
>
> Blessings,
> Aaron
>
> On Dec 18, 2011, at 2:55 PM, andrew docker wrote:
>
> > And therefore not to be taken so seriously then I would have
> > thought! It is similar to the adption of the Quabalah as a system of
> > knowledge by the west. However, those who celebrate it in its original
> > form that I know are pleased that it has been adopted as a system of
> > self-development, and claim no ownership as they see all higher
> > knowledge as being the divine right of humanity in general. I really
> > don't see why the strong feelings here. If I collect items available to
> > me locally for my workings (as I do) then that is essentially the same
> > thing as she sells-and it is a common world-wide practice. If I saw a
> > post on here from a person of that belief that criticised her actions
> > then fair enough-but I don't think I have yet.
> >
> > If I minded people making runesets and calling them runes even though they
are not of my culture or beliefs, then I would be kept very busy
> > complaining. I have spoken to wise people of other cultures to myself
> > who feel strongly that their knowledge can be the key to humanities
> > evolution and understanding (that is why they teach), and I have not
> > heard these concerns mentioned.
> >
> > I think I would rather look outwards at the common similarities amongst
> > those who work for good than pick over words. The world in a sense is
> > shrinking and to me anything (like this even) that provokes thought in
> > people and causes them to explore for themselves has to be good. Ok-she
> > may make a little money-but if it leads to a few people opening their
> > perceptions then for one I don't really care!
> >
> > Andrew
> >
> > ________________________________
> > From: Branwyn ni
> >
> > ________________________________
> > From: Branwyn ni Druaidh <welshwmn3@...>
> > To: ShamanicWays@yahoogroups.com
> > Sent: Sunday, 18 December 2011, 17:29
> > Subject: Re: [Shamanic Ways] Fwd: FREE Despacho Kit: Buy 4 Kits Get 1 Free
Offer Extended Through December 31
> >
> > "There is no religion associated with prayer bundles, they're compatible
> > with all beliefs."
> >
> > That is patently untrue.  The despachos are part of
> > the indigenous Incan/Inkan religious practices.  The religion is very
> > strong in in the worship/reverence of the Directions, the Mountains, Nature
> > et al.  To say that the despachos have no religious association is to say
> > that the Pipe Ceremony has no religious association, that the Blessing Way
> > has no religious association, that the Roman Catholic "Last Rights" have no
> > religious association.
> >
> > This appears to be another example of a white person taking what they want
> > of the teachings of the indigenous people, dropping what they don't want,
> > and selling and profiting from things they don't truly understand.
> >
> > *sighs*
> > Bronwen
> >
> > On Sun, Dec 18, 2011 at 2:02 AM, andrew docker <see2dream@...>wrote:
> >
> > > **
> > >
> > >
> > > 'To bring about change in accordance with the will'. That is the accepted
> > > definition of magical practice.
> > >
> > > I don't see anything strange about this. Isn't it similar to people
> > > charging money for courses etc? I feel that if it opens peoples eyes to
the
> > > potential of changing their lives for the better then how can it be
strange
> > > or different from buying a book?
> > >
> > > Andy
> > >
> > > ________________________________
> > > From: Nick Noble Wolf <true_dog@...>
> > > To: Shamanic Ways <ShamanicWays@yahoogroups.com>
> > > Sent: Friday, 16 December 2011, 13:46
> > > Subject: [Shamanic Ways] Fwd: FREE Despacho Kit: Buy 4 Kits Get 1 Free
> > > Offer Extended Through December 31
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > I just received the following spam. I was pretty weirded out. Then I
> > > went to her site (www.prayerbundles.com <http://www.prayerbundles.com>).
> > > Now I am speechless.
> > >
> > > What do you think?
> > >
> > > Blessings,
> > > ~Nick
> > >
> > > -------- Original Message --------
> > > Subject: FREE Despacho Kit: Buy 4 Kits Get 1 Free Offer Extended
> > > Through December 31
> > > Date: Wed, 14 Dec 2011 17:12:11 -0800
> > > From: Kerri Colegrove <prayerbundles@...>
> > > To: undisclosed-recipients:;
> > >
> > > Seasons Greetings,
> > >
> > > FREE Despacho Kits are very popular this holiday season with the *Buy 4
> > > Kits Get 1 Free* Holiday Sale -- so we've extended this sale to Dec 31.
> > >
> > > In addition to personal use, offering despacho ceremonies to your
> > > community is a great way to build your practice. Here's what an
> > > Australian shamanic practitioner wrote...
> > >
> > > "I have just started offering Despacho Ceremonies within my
> > > business - and I have to say, my clients LOVE them. How
> > > blessed we are for this training AND how blessed I am to
> > > know you and your books! xoxoxo"
> > >
> > > *To take advantage of the Buy 4 Kits Get 1 Free sale call (310) 237-2421
> > > <tel:%28310%29%20237-2421> or email: prayerbundles@...
> > > <mailto:prayerbundles@...>.* Let us know what kits you'd like and
> > > we'll send you an invoice and the kits will follow.
> > >
> > > We have over a dozen despacho kits now in stock, each with very unique
> > > and specific action, including:
> > >
> > > *Ayni Abundance Kit* -- Put your entire New Year's wish list into this
> > > one, then make one monthly to keep big blessings flowing
> > > to you all year.
> > > *Aya Death Kit -- *To celebrate traditional passing or _for those
> > > wanting a "new life"_, these kits make an extra beautiful despacho.
> > > *Cuti (Protection) Kit* -- _Gets rid of toxic energy_ others have sent
> > > to you (usually unwittingly) via anger, resentment, envy, etc.,
> > > a must for everyone at least once.
> > > *Wiska (Freedom) Kit* -- _Unsticks energy vampires and such_, a must for
> > > everyone at least once. Fun to make.
> > > *House Cleanse Kit* - Combine this one and the two above, wiska and
> > > cuti, for a *Giant Triple Cleanse* to start the New Year off
> > > squeaky clean energetically. _Great
> > > help for selling a house_.
> > > *Feminine Healing Kit* - Transforms emotional trauma into strength,
> > > _helps men get in better touch with their feelings_.
> > > *Masculine Healing Kit* - Gals, empowers you by empowering your inner
> > > masculine. Guys, great for your career.
> > > *Wedding Celebration Kit* -- Brings extra blessings to newlyweds.
> > > *Birth Celebration Kit* -- Brings extra blessings to newborn babes.
> > > *New Path Kit *-- To support a big direction change in life.
> > > *Money Kit* -- Special action to attract more money.
> > > *Mastery of Time Kit* -- People who make this one have discovered extra
> > > time, gets you in right relationship with time so you
> > > have _plenty of time for everything_!
> > > *Bee Kit* -- Honors the energetic archetype of the bee to help you
> > > foster more community and productivity -- great for business.
> > >
> > > The Ayni Kit is $35. All other kits are $37 each. Shipping for 5 kits is
> > > $20.
> > >
> > > To*Buy 4 Kits Get 1 Free, call (310) 237-2421 <tel:%28310%29%20237-2421>
> > > or email: prayerbundles@... <mailto:prayerbundles@...>.*
> > > Give us a list of the kits you want so we can send you an invoice and
> > > then the kits. We will confirm your order within 24 hours. If you have
> > > any questions please call.
> > >
> > > Thank you to all our customers and friends for making 2011 such a great
> > > year for us. We look forward to helping make 2012 a great year for you.
> > >
> > > --
> > > Kerri Colegrove
> > > Prayer Bundles
> > > (310) 237-2421 <tel:%28310%29%20237-2421>
> > > www.prayerbundles.com <http://www.prayerbundles.com>
> > > Ignite Your Life!
> > >
> > > To receive no more emails from Prayer Bundles, reply to this email with
> > > the message "unsubscribe." Thank you.
> > >
> > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> > >
> > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> > >
> > >
> > >
> >
> > --
> > Per pale argent and purpure, two phoenixes counterchanged sable and argent
> > each rising from flames proper.
> >
> > "It is sometimes the most fragile things that have the power to endure and
> > become sources of strength."
> > - May Sarton
> >
> > "Only a life lived in the service to others is worth living."- Albert
> > Einstein
> >
> > "Out of clutter, find Simplicity. From discord, find Harmony. In the middle
> > of difficulty lies opportunity." - Albert Einstein
> >
> > "And the day came when the risk to remain tight in a bud was more painful
> > than the risk it took to blossom." - Anais Nin
> >
> > "Go confidently in the direction of your dreams. Live the life you have
> > imagined." - Henry David Thoreau
> >
> > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> >
> > ------------------------------------
> >
> > Note that all attachments are removed to minimize the possible spread of
viruses.Yahoo! Groups Links
> >
> > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> >
> >
> >
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
> ------------------------------------
>
> Note that all attachments are removed to minimize the possible spread of
viruses.Yahoo! Groups Links
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
>



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

I am glad I brought this forth. It has generated some interesting
conversation. I like hearing what you folks have to say on things. I
expand my thinking that way.

A couple of things:
Are the animal crackers and gummy bears to eat while putting the prayer
bundle together?
To work, a prayer bundle must be imbued with power. Since it is a most
likely novice who has purchased the contents (a practitioner would just
make their own), do they have the medicine to make a bundle that
actually does that which is intended? If the bundle does have power,
will it have the power desired, or might it become twisted if the gummy
bears are eaten?
Can you really use make a prayer bundle for yourself that does a soul
retrieval?

Blessings,
~Nick

On 12/16/2011 6:52 AM, Rich Magyar wrote:
> I looked at the site, though because i am a novice........ why were you
weirded out?
>
> "I do not intend to tiptoe through life only to arrive safely at death."
author unknown
>
> --- On Fri, 12/16/11, Nick Noble Wolf<true_dog@...>  wrote:
>
>
> From: Nick Noble Wolf<true_dog@...>
> Subject: [Shamanic Ways] Fwd: FREE Despacho Kit: Buy 4 Kits Get 1 Free Offer
Extended Through December 31
> To: "Shamanic Ways"<ShamanicWays@yahoogroups.com>
> Date: Friday, December 16, 2011, 8:46 AM
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> I just received the following spam. I was pretty weirded out. Then I
> went to her site (www.prayerbundles.com<http://www.prayerbundles.com>).
> Now I am speechless.
>
> What do you think?
>
> Blessings,
> ~Nick
>
> -------- Original Message --------
> Subject: FREE Despacho Kit: Buy 4 Kits Get 1 Free Offer Extended
> Through December 31
> Date: Wed, 14 Dec 2011 17:12:11 -0800
> From: Kerri Colegrove<prayerbundles@...>
> To: undisclosed-recipients:;
>
> Seasons Greetings,
>
> FREE Despacho Kits are very popular this holiday season with the *Buy 4
> Kits Get 1 Free* Holiday Sale -- so we've extended this sale to Dec 31.
>
> In addition to personal use, offering despacho ceremonies to your
> community is a great way to build your practice. Here's what an
> Australian shamanic practitioner wrote...
>
> "I have just started offering Despacho Ceremonies within my
> business - and I have to say, my clients LOVE them. How
> blessed we are for this training AND how blessed I am to
> know you and your books! xoxoxo"
>
> *To take advantage of the Buy 4 Kits Get 1 Free sale call (310) 237-2421
> <tel:%28310%29%20237-2421>  or email: prayerbundles@...
> <mailto:prayerbundles@...>.* Let us know what kits you'd like and
> we'll send you an invoice and the kits will follow.
>
> We have over a dozen despacho kits now in stock, each with very unique
> and specific action, including:
>
> *Ayni Abundance Kit* -- Put your entire New Year's wish list into this
> one, then make one monthly to keep big blessings flowing
> to you all year.
> *Aya Death Kit -- *To celebrate traditional passing or _for those
> wanting a "new life"_, these kits make an extra beautiful despacho.
> *Cuti (Protection) Kit* -- _Gets rid of toxic energy_ others have sent
> to you (usually unwittingly) via anger, resentment, envy, etc.,
> a must for everyone at least once.
> *Wiska (Freedom) Kit* -- _Unsticks energy vampires and such_, a must for
> everyone at least once. Fun to make.
> *House Cleanse Kit* - Combine this one and the two above, wiska and
> cuti, for a *Giant Triple Cleanse* to start the New Year off
> squeaky clean energetically. _Great
> help for selling a house_.
> *Feminine Healing Kit* - Transforms emotional trauma into strength,
> _helps men get in better touch with their feelings_.
> *Masculine Healing Kit* - Gals, empowers you by empowering your inner
> masculine. Guys, great for your career.
> *Wedding Celebration Kit* -- Brings extra blessings to newlyweds.
> *Birth Celebration Kit* -- Brings extra blessings to newborn babes.
> *New Path Kit *-- To support a big direction change in life.
> *Money Kit* -- Special action to attract more money.
> *Mastery of Time Kit* -- People who make this one have discovered extra
> time, gets you in right relationship with time so you
> have _plenty of time for everything_!
> *Bee Kit* -- Honors the energetic archetype of the bee to help you
> foster more community and productivity -- great for business.
>
> The Ayni Kit is $35. All other kits are $37 each. Shipping for 5 kits is
> $20.
>
> To*Buy 4 Kits Get 1 Free, call (310) 237-2421<tel:%28310%29%20237-2421>
> or email: prayerbundles@...<mailto:prayerbundles@...>.*
> Give us a list of the kits you want so we can send you an invoice and
> then the kits. We will confirm your order within 24 hours. If you have
> any questions please call.
>
> Thank you to all our customers and friends for making 2011 such a great
> year for us. We look forward to helping make 2012 a great year for you.
>

Well Nick...if you haven't progressed to The Arcane Knowledge of the Gummy Bears
Stage the I'm afraid you cannot possibly understand the true meaning of the
practitioner. I'm amazed that you reveal such a gap in your knowledge on the
site :o)

How can they work? They are not what they are described as anyway, and I feel
there only value is to hopefully point someone in the direction of their own
path.


A group of us once wrote a ritual using invocations named after chocolate
bars-nothing happened but it tasted good!

A



________________________________
  From: Nick Noble Wolf <true_dog@...>
To: ShamanicWays@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Monday, 19 December 2011, 13:09
Subject: Re: [Shamanic Ways] Fwd: FREE Despacho Kit: Buy 4 Kits Get 1 Free Offer
Extended Through December 31


 
I am glad I brought this forth. It has generated some interesting
conversation. I like hearing what you folks have to say on things. I
expand my thinking that way.

A couple of things:
Are the animal crackers and gummy bears to eat while putting the prayer
bundle together?
To work, a prayer bundle must be imbued with power. Since it is a most
likely novice who has purchased the contents (a practitioner would just
make their own), do they have the medicine to make a bundle that
actually does that which is intended? If the bundle does have power,
will it have the power desired, or might it become twisted if the gummy
bears are eaten?
Can you really use make a prayer bundle for yourself that does a soul
retrieval?

Blessings,
~Nick

On 12/16/2011 6:52 AM, Rich Magyar wrote:
> I looked at the site, though because i am a novice........ why were you
weirded out?
>
> "I do not intend to tiptoe through life only to arrive safely at death."
author unknown
>
> --- On Fri, 12/16/11, Nick Noble Wolf<true_dog@...>  wrote:
>
>
> From: Nick Noble Wolf<true_dog@...>
> Subject: [Shamanic Ways] Fwd: FREE Despacho Kit: Buy 4 Kits Get 1 Free Offer
Extended Through December 31
> To: "Shamanic Ways"<ShamanicWays@yahoogroups.com>
> Date: Friday, December 16, 2011, 8:46 AM
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> I just received the following spam. I was pretty weirded out. Then I
> went to her site (www.prayerbundles.com<http://www.prayerbundles.com>).
> Now I am speechless.
>
> What do you think?
>
> Blessings,
> ~Nick
>
> -------- Original Message --------
> Subject: FREE Despacho Kit: Buy 4 Kits Get 1 Free Offer Extended
> Through December 31
> Date: Wed, 14 Dec 2011 17:12:11 -0800
> From: Kerri Colegrove<prayerbundles@...>
> To: undisclosed-recipients:;
>
> Seasons Greetings,
>
> FREE Despacho Kits are very popular this holiday season with the *Buy 4
> Kits Get 1 Free* Holiday Sale -- so we've extended this sale to Dec 31.
>
> In addition to personal use, offering despacho ceremonies to your
> community is a great way to build your practice. Here's what an
> Australian shamanic practitioner wrote...
>
> "I have just started offering Despacho Ceremonies within my
> business - and I have to say, my clients LOVE them. How
> blessed we are for this training AND how blessed I am to
> know you and your books! xoxoxo"
>
> *To take advantage of the Buy 4 Kits Get 1 Free sale call (310) 237-2421
> <tel:%28310%29%20237-2421>  or email: prayerbundles@...
> <mailto:prayerbundles@...>.* Let us know what kits you'd like and
> we'll send you an invoice and the kits will follow.
>
> We have over a dozen despacho kits now in stock, each with very unique
> and specific action, including:
>
> *Ayni Abundance Kit* -- Put your entire New Year's wish list into this
> one, then make one monthly to keep big blessings flowing
> to you all year.
> *Aya Death Kit -- *To celebrate traditional passing or _for those
> wanting a "new life"_, these kits make an extra beautiful despacho.
> *Cuti (Protection) Kit* -- _Gets rid of toxic energy_ others have sent
> to you (usually unwittingly) via anger, resentment, envy, etc.,
> a must for everyone at least once.
> *Wiska (Freedom) Kit* -- _Unsticks energy vampires and such_, a must for
> everyone at least once. Fun to make.
> *House Cleanse Kit* - Combine this one and the two above, wiska and
> cuti, for a *Giant Triple Cleanse* to start the New Year off
> squeaky clean energetically. _Great
> help for selling a house_.
> *Feminine Healing Kit* - Transforms emotional trauma into strength,
> _helps men get in better touch with their feelings_.
> *Masculine Healing Kit* - Gals, empowers you by empowering your inner
> masculine. Guys, great for your career.
> *Wedding Celebration Kit* -- Brings extra blessings to newlyweds.
> *Birth Celebration Kit* -- Brings extra blessings to newborn babes.
> *New Path Kit *-- To support a big direction change in life.
> *Money Kit* -- Special action to attract more money.
> *Mastery of Time Kit* -- People who make this one have discovered extra
> time, gets you in right relationship with time so you
> have _plenty of time for everything_!
> *Bee Kit* -- Honors the energetic archetype of the bee to help you
> foster more community and productivity -- great for business.
>
> The Ayni Kit is $35. All other kits are $37 each. Shipping for 5 kits is
> $20.
>
> To*Buy 4 Kits Get 1 Free, call (310) 237-2421<tel:%28310%29%20237-2421>
> or email: prayerbundles@...<mailto:prayerbundles@...>.*
> Give us a list of the kits you want so we can send you an invoice and
> then the kits. We will confirm your order within 24 hours. If you have
> any questions please call.
>
> Thank you to all our customers and friends for making 2011 such a great
> year for us. We look forward to helping make 2012 a great year for you.
>



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

You have me laughing so loudly (about the gummy bears) I think my neighbors
heard Nick =)
Thanks for the morning Joy.
Blessings,
Aaron
On Dec 19, 2011, at 8:09 AM, Nick Noble Wolf wrote:

> I am glad I brought this forth. It has generated some interesting
> conversation. I like hearing what you folks have to say on things. I
> expand my thinking that way.
>
> A couple of things:
> Are the animal crackers and gummy bears to eat while putting the prayer
> bundle together?
> To work, a prayer bundle must be imbued with power. Since it is a most
> likely novice who has purchased the contents (a practitioner would just
> make their own), do they have the medicine to make a bundle that
> actually does that which is intended? If the bundle does have power,
> will it have the power desired, or might it become twisted if the gummy
> bears are eaten?
> Can you really use make a prayer bundle for yourself that does a soul
> retrieval?
>
> Blessings,
> ~Nick
>
> On 12/16/2011 6:52 AM, Rich Magyar wrote:
> > I looked at the site, though because i am a novice........ why were you
weirded out?
> >
> > "I do not intend to tiptoe through life only to arrive safely at death."
author unknown
> >
> > --- On Fri, 12/16/11, Nick Noble Wolf<true_dog@...> wrote:
> >
> >
> > From: Nick Noble Wolf<true_dog@...>
> > Subject: [Shamanic Ways] Fwd: FREE Despacho Kit: Buy 4 Kits Get 1 Free Offer
Extended Through December 31
> > To: "Shamanic Ways"<ShamanicWays@yahoogroups.com>
> > Date: Friday, December 16, 2011, 8:46 AM
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > I just received the following spam. I was pretty weirded out. Then I
> > went to her site (www.prayerbundles.com<http://www.prayerbundles.com>).
> > Now I am speechless.
> >
> > What do you think?
> >
> > Blessings,
> > ~Nick
> >
> > -------- Original Message --------
> > Subject: FREE Despacho Kit: Buy 4 Kits Get 1 Free Offer Extended
> > Through December 31
> > Date: Wed, 14 Dec 2011 17:12:11 -0800
> > From: Kerri Colegrove<prayerbundles@...>
> > To: undisclosed-recipients:;
> >
> > Seasons Greetings,
> >
> > FREE Despacho Kits are very popular this holiday season with the *Buy 4
> > Kits Get 1 Free* Holiday Sale -- so we've extended this sale to Dec 31.
> >
> > In addition to personal use, offering despacho ceremonies to your
> > community is a great way to build your practice. Here's what an
> > Australian shamanic practitioner wrote...
> >
> > "I have just started offering Despacho Ceremonies within my
> > business - and I have to say, my clients LOVE them. How
> > blessed we are for this training AND how blessed I am to
> > know you and your books! xoxoxo"
> >
> > *To take advantage of the Buy 4 Kits Get 1 Free sale call (310) 237-2421
> > <tel:%28310%29%20237-2421> or email: prayerbundles@...
> > <mailto:prayerbundles@...>.* Let us know what kits you'd like and
> > we'll send you an invoice and the kits will follow.
> >
> > We have over a dozen despacho kits now in stock, each with very unique
> > and specific action, including:
> >
> > *Ayni Abundance Kit* -- Put your entire New Year's wish list into this
> > one, then make one monthly to keep big blessings flowing
> > to you all year.
> > *Aya Death Kit -- *To celebrate traditional passing or _for those
> > wanting a "new life"_, these kits make an extra beautiful despacho.
> > *Cuti (Protection) Kit* -- _Gets rid of toxic energy_ others have sent
> > to you (usually unwittingly) via anger, resentment, envy, etc.,
> > a must for everyone at least once.
> > *Wiska (Freedom) Kit* -- _Unsticks energy vampires and such_, a must for
> > everyone at least once. Fun to make.
> > *House Cleanse Kit* - Combine this one and the two above, wiska and
> > cuti, for a *Giant Triple Cleanse* to start the New Year off
> > squeaky clean energetically. _Great
> > help for selling a house_.
> > *Feminine Healing Kit* - Transforms emotional trauma into strength,
> > _helps men get in better touch with their feelings_.
> > *Masculine Healing Kit* - Gals, empowers you by empowering your inner
> > masculine. Guys, great for your career.
> > *Wedding Celebration Kit* -- Brings extra blessings to newlyweds.
> > *Birth Celebration Kit* -- Brings extra blessings to newborn babes.
> > *New Path Kit *-- To support a big direction change in life.
> > *Money Kit* -- Special action to attract more money.
> > *Mastery of Time Kit* -- People who make this one have discovered extra
> > time, gets you in right relationship with time so you
> > have _plenty of time for everything_!
> > *Bee Kit* -- Honors the energetic archetype of the bee to help you
> > foster more community and productivity -- great for business.
> >
> > The Ayni Kit is $35. All other kits are $37 each. Shipping for 5 kits is
> > $20.
> >
> > To*Buy 4 Kits Get 1 Free, call (310) 237-2421<tel:%28310%29%20237-2421>
> > or email: prayerbundles@...<mailto:prayerbundles@...>.*
> > Give us a list of the kits you want so we can send you an invoice and
> > then the kits. We will confirm your order within 24 hours. If you have
> > any questions please call.
> >
> > Thank you to all our customers and friends for making 2011 such a great
> > year for us. We look forward to helping make 2012 a great year for you.
> >
>
>



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

and my laughter continues … you two are going to have me pass out before
breakfast ;-)
I just got this strange image of a future conscious gummy bear society with
their own spirituality and medicine people LOL

On Dec 19, 2011, at 8:26 AM, andrew docker wrote:

> Well Nick...if you haven't progressed to The Arcane Knowledge of the Gummy
Bears Stage the I'm afraid you cannot possibly understand the true meaning of
the practitioner. I'm amazed that you reveal such a gap in your knowledge on the
site :o)
>
> How can they work? They are not what they are described as anyway, and I feel
there only value is to hopefully point someone in the direction of their own
path.
>
> A group of us once wrote a ritual using invocations named after chocolate
bars-nothing happened but it tasted good!
>
> A
>
> ________________________________
> From: Nick Noble Wolf <true_dog@...>
> To: ShamanicWays@yahoogroups.com
> Sent: Monday, 19 December 2011, 13:09
> Subject: Re: [Shamanic Ways] Fwd: FREE Despacho Kit: Buy 4 Kits Get 1 Free
Offer Extended Through December 31
>
>
>
> I am glad I brought this forth. It has generated some interesting
> conversation. I like hearing what you folks have to say on things. I
> expand my thinking that way.
>
> A couple of things:
> Are the animal crackers and gummy bears to eat while putting the prayer
> bundle together?
> To work, a prayer bundle must be imbued with power. Since it is a most
> likely novice who has purchased the contents (a practitioner would just
> make their own), do they have the medicine to make a bundle that
> actually does that which is intended? If the bundle does have power,
> will it have the power desired, or might it become twisted if the gummy
> bears are eaten?
> Can you really use make a prayer bundle for yourself that does a soul
> retrieval?
>
> Blessings,
> ~Nick
>
> On 12/16/2011 6:52 AM, Rich Magyar wrote:
> > I looked at the site, though because i am a novice........ why were you
weirded out?
> >
> > "I do not intend to tiptoe through life only to arrive safely at death."
author unknown
> >
> > --- On Fri, 12/16/11, Nick Noble Wolf<true_dog@...> wrote:
> >
> >
> > From: Nick Noble Wolf<true_dog@...>
> > Subject: [Shamanic Ways] Fwd: FREE Despacho Kit: Buy 4 Kits Get 1 Free Offer
Extended Through December 31
> > To: "Shamanic Ways"<ShamanicWays@yahoogroups.com>
> > Date: Friday, December 16, 2011, 8:46 AM
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > I just received the following spam. I was pretty weirded out. Then I
> > went to her site (www.prayerbundles.com<http://www.prayerbundles.com>).
> > Now I am speechless.
> >
> > What do you think?
> >
> > Blessings,
> > ~Nick
> >
> > -------- Original Message --------
> > Subject: FREE Despacho Kit: Buy 4 Kits Get 1 Free Offer Extended
> > Through December 31
> > Date: Wed, 14 Dec 2011 17:12:11 -0800
> > From: Kerri Colegrove<prayerbundles@...>
> > To: undisclosed-recipients:;
> >
> > Seasons Greetings,
> >
> > FREE Despacho Kits are very popular this holiday season with the *Buy 4
> > Kits Get 1 Free* Holiday Sale -- so we've extended this sale to Dec 31.
> >
> > In addition to personal use, offering despacho ceremonies to your
> > community is a great way to build your practice. Here's what an
> > Australian shamanic practitioner wrote...
> >
> > "I have just started offering Despacho Ceremonies within my
> > business - and I have to say, my clients LOVE them. How
> > blessed we are for this training AND how blessed I am to
> > know you and your books! xoxoxo"
> >
> > *To take advantage of the Buy 4 Kits Get 1 Free sale call (310) 237-2421
> > <tel:%28310%29%20237-2421> or email: prayerbundles@...
> > <mailto:prayerbundles@...>.* Let us know what kits you'd like and
> > we'll send you an invoice and the kits will follow.
> >
> > We have over a dozen despacho kits now in stock, each with very unique
> > and specific action, including:
> >
> > *Ayni Abundance Kit* -- Put your entire New Year's wish list into this
> > one, then make one monthly to keep big blessings flowing
> > to you all year.
> > *Aya Death Kit -- *To celebrate traditional passing or _for those
> > wanting a "new life"_, these kits make an extra beautiful despacho.
> > *Cuti (Protection) Kit* -- _Gets rid of toxic energy_ others have sent
> > to you (usually unwittingly) via anger, resentment, envy, etc.,
> > a must for everyone at least once.
> > *Wiska (Freedom) Kit* -- _Unsticks energy vampires and such_, a must for
> > everyone at least once. Fun to make.
> > *House Cleanse Kit* - Combine this one and the two above, wiska and
> > cuti, for a *Giant Triple Cleanse* to start the New Year off
> > squeaky clean energetically. _Great
> > help for selling a house_.
> > *Feminine Healing Kit* - Transforms emotional trauma into strength,
> > _helps men get in better touch with their feelings_.
> > *Masculine Healing Kit* - Gals, empowers you by empowering your inner
> > masculine. Guys, great for your career.
> > *Wedding Celebration Kit* -- Brings extra blessings to newlyweds.
> > *Birth Celebration Kit* -- Brings extra blessings to newborn babes.
> > *New Path Kit *-- To support a big direction change in life.
> > *Money Kit* -- Special action to attract more money.
> > *Mastery of Time Kit* -- People who make this one have discovered extra
> > time, gets you in right relationship with time so you
> > have _plenty of time for everything_!
> > *Bee Kit* -- Honors the energetic archetype of the bee to help you
> > foster more community and productivity -- great for business.
> >
> > The Ayni Kit is $35. All other kits are $37 each. Shipping for 5 kits is
> > $20.
> >
> > To*Buy 4 Kits Get 1 Free, call (310) 237-2421<tel:%28310%29%20237-2421>
> > or email: prayerbundles@...<mailto:prayerbundles@...>.*
> > Give us a list of the kits you want so we can send you an invoice and
> > then the kits. We will confirm your order within 24 hours. If you have
> > any questions please call.
> >
> > Thank you to all our customers and friends for making 2011 such a great
> > year for us. We look forward to helping make 2012 a great year for you.
> >
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
>



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Aaron,

    While I agree that Christianity and Islam do convert far more than Judaism,
my point was that the concept of conversion is not completely foreign. In any
case, instead of just focussing on that- how about responding to the meat of my
post? I was trying to explain why indegenous people *do* have a problem with the
misappropriation of their culture and ceremonies. They do not see it as a
"compliment". The only reason that white people wish they would see it as a
compliment is so that they don't have to feel guilty by profaning their
religion.
    To be honest, I am really shocked at some of your insensitive comments on the
subject. Things you said like indegenous people were "blaming the terrible white
usurpers" make you seem to others as if you are making light of the atrocities
that have occured. In Siberia, even in recent times shamans have been killed for
practicing their beliefs. They were taken up in helicopters and thrown out to
their deaths. This is too recent to have "gotten over" by now. Your sense of
entitlement is epic.
Steve

--- In ShamanicWays@yahoogroups.com, Aaron <aaronreid19103@...> wrote:
>
> Hi Steve.  I completely understand your point of view, so I'd like to express
my sincere distaste for lumping Judaism, with Islam and Christianity … either by
saying the Abrahamic faiths or using the term Judeo-Christian.  While I no
longer consider myself a part of the Jewish religion, it was my root spiritual
base before expanding my consciousness out of the realm of religion and my
change of view when reaching the age of 15 regarding the bible.
>
> The one specific difference that applies to your post is that traditionally,
conversion to Judaism is frowned upon; they definitely do not seek converts or
attempt to convert others, and those who seek out becoming Jewish and asking for
conversion must go through rigorous education and examination before it will
even be accepted (and then only by some groups of Jews).  Since Judaism itself
has been watered down to several sects as well, there may be easier methods of
conversion among some "reform" congregations, but these are not accepted by
Traditionalists.  The only reason most Rabbaim "Jewish Clergy" would even
consider conversion is when a Jewish man insists on marrying a non-Jewish
female; since Judaism is decided by the Mother, it would be done for the reason
of having the children accepted as Jewish.  There are still many Jewish
traditionalists that would not even consider allowing conversion or consider a
"convert" actually Jewish.
>
> Just some insight as many other faiths do not have any clue about Traditional
Judaism.
> I do not take any offense, so please do not take any of this post as such.  I
simply wanted to state a point.
> Thanks,
> Aaron
>
> On Dec 18, 2011, at 8:21 PM, yzermongol wrote:
>
> > Hello Andrew,
> >
> > I wanted to respond to your post- just to try to give you an indigenous
perspective. The Abrahamic faiths (Christianity, Judaism, and Islam) are all
open to converts and sometimes even force people into conversion. Allowing
others to follow their belief system is normal for their faith and is often
encouraged. When a person is raised around faiths like this, it is difficult to
understand how other spiritual traditions might not be as welcoming to converts
or sharing their sacred traditions.
> > However, many indigenous people see their traditions as part of their
cultural and racial identity. There is no concept of conversion and they would
really be shocked and curious if someone approached them with the idea.
Furthermore, it can be a sore-spot for those who had their lands appropriated
and other atrocities done to their people. In their view, enough has already
been "taken" from them. "Borrowing ceremonies" often falls into this catagory
from their point of view.
> > It is difficult to clearly understand others that are raised with a
different world view. So although you might not be offended if people tried out
runes, you are coming from a different perspective than many native people. Just
food for thought.
> >
> > --- In ShamanicWays@yahoogroups.com, andrew docker <see2dream@> wrote:
> > >
> > > Hi Aaron,
> > >
> > > In a sense that is what I am trying to get at, and obviously I feel that
your direct experiences in that area are different from mine-and undoubtedly
more knowledgeable. The 'despacho' thing is not the real thing either-but does
it matter?.
> > >
> > >
> > > Some years ago I was involved in organising lectures on various
metaphysical subjects in Manchester, We had Warren Kenton speak twice, and our
private conversations were very memorable. There were many elders and rabbis of
that faith present, and what an amazing interplay of ideas and theories-I will
never forget it. My son, who was very young then still talks about it.
> > >
> > >
> > > 'but rather take the stand that it doesn't matter because it's simply not
the same thing!' Thats exactly what I mean Aaron! Instead of fooling around
blaming those terrible white usurpers of indigenous knowledge, why can't we
celebrate the spreading of knowledge throughout the world-knowledge that frees
humanity from bondage, and lets the soul fly free.
> > >
> > >
> > > Are we on a spiritual quest, or wrapping ourselves up in base mundane
bickering? Why don't we take all the good and work on that. When I talk to
spirit, it never refuses to let me in,or ask me what language I speak, it is
universal. Should I ignore the teaching contacts that have been with me for many
years because they are not of my present geographical location? Have I always
manifested on earth in this location? No... I think that we have to look way
beyond the petty minor tensions and see the universal picture-we are all One!
> > >
> > > How can we carry our work forward if we shackle ourselves with chains of
ignorance?
> > >
> > >
> > > Andrew
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > ________________________________
> > > From: Aaron <aaronreid19103@>
> > > To: ShamanicWays@yahoogroups.com
> > > Sent: Sunday, 18 December 2011, 22:53
> > > Subject: Re: [Shamanic Ways] Fwd: FREE Despacho Kit: Buy 4 Kits Get 1 Free
Offer Extended Through December 31
> > >
> > > Andrew,
> > >
> > > I'm in almost complete agreement, especially with your last paragraph.
> > > I do have to say that there is one thing with which we have a different
experience; you wrote:
> > > > "It is similar to the adption of the Quabalah as a system of knowledge
by the west. However, those who celebrate it in its original form that I know
are pleased that it has been adopted as a system of self-development, and claim
no ownership as they see all higher knowledge as being the divine right of
humanity in general."
> > > >
> > > I grew up in a traditionally Jewish environment and the "Quabalah" being
thrown around is definitely NOT respected among traditional Hebrew scholars. 
While I will agree that they are more tolerant than some and don't outwardly or
publicly object to these practices, it is because they believe the "Quabalah"
that was made popular in the past couple decades is just a watered down, untrue
version of Kabbalah.  Even my father, who is a Hebrew scholar will not study
Kabbalah as he doesn't even feel he is someone who should delve into such
teachings.  So, the main difference is that they don't hem and haw about their
tradition being stolen, but rather take the stand that it doesn't matter because
it's simply not the same thing.
> > >
> > > Blessings,
> > > Aaron
> > >
> > > On Dec 18, 2011, at 2:55 PM, andrew docker wrote:
> > >
> > > > And therefore not to be taken so seriously then I would have
> > > > thought! It is similar to the adption of the Quabalah as a system of
> > > > knowledge by the west. However, those who celebrate it in its original
> > > > form that I know are pleased that it has been adopted as a system of
> > > > self-development, and claim no ownership as they see all higher
> > > > knowledge as being the divine right of humanity in general. I really
> > > > don't see why the strong feelings here. If I collect items available to
> > > > me locally for my workings (as I do) then that is essentially the same
> > > > thing as she sells-and it is a common world-wide practice. If I saw a
> > > > post on here from a person of that belief that criticised her actions
> > > > then fair enough-but I don't think I have yet.
> > > >
> > > > If I minded people making runesets and calling them runes even though
they are not of my culture or beliefs, then I would be kept very busy
> > > > complaining. I have spoken to wise people of other cultures to myself
> > > > who feel strongly that their knowledge can be the key to humanities
> > > > evolution and understanding (that is why they teach), and I have not
> > > > heard these concerns mentioned.
> > > >
> > > > I think I would rather look outwards at the common similarities amongst
> > > > those who work for good than pick over words. The world in a sense is
> > > > shrinking and to me anything (like this even) that provokes thought in
> > > > people and causes them to explore for themselves has to be good. Ok-she
> > > > may make a little money-but if it leads to a few people opening their
> > > > perceptions then for one I don't really care!
> > > >
> > > > Andrew
> > > >
> > > > ________________________________
> > > > From: Branwyn ni
> > > >
> > > > ________________________________
> > > > From: Branwyn ni Druaidh <welshwmn3@>
> > > > To: ShamanicWays@yahoogroups.com
> > > > Sent: Sunday, 18 December 2011, 17:29
> > > > Subject: Re: [Shamanic Ways] Fwd: FREE Despacho Kit: Buy 4 Kits Get 1
Free Offer Extended Through December 31
> > > >
> > > > "There is no religion associated with prayer bundles, they're compatible
> > > > with all beliefs."
> > > >
> > > > That is patently untrue.  The despachos are part of
> > > > the indigenous Incan/Inkan religious practices.  The religion is very
> > > > strong in in the worship/reverence of the Directions, the Mountains,
Nature
> > > > et al.  To say that the despachos have no religious association is to
say
> > > > that the Pipe Ceremony has no religious association, that the Blessing
Way
> > > > has no religious association, that the Roman Catholic "Last Rights" have
no
> > > > religious association.
> > > >
> > > > This appears to be another example of a white person taking what they
want
> > > > of the teachings of the indigenous people, dropping what they don't
want,
> > > > and selling and profiting from things they don't truly understand.
> > > >
> > > > *sighs*
> > > > Bronwen
> > > >
> > > > On Sun, Dec 18, 2011 at 2:02 AM, andrew docker <see2dream@>wrote:
> > > >
> > > > > **
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > 'To bring about change in accordance with the will'. That is the
accepted
> > > > > definition of magical practice.
> > > > >
> > > > > I don't see anything strange about this. Isn't it similar to people
> > > > > charging money for courses etc? I feel that if it opens peoples eyes
to the
> > > > > potential of changing their lives for the better then how can it be
strange
> > > > > or different from buying a book?
> > > > >
> > > > > Andy
> > > > >
> > > > > ________________________________
> > > > > From: Nick Noble Wolf <true_dog@>
> > > > > To: Shamanic Ways <ShamanicWays@yahoogroups.com>
> > > > > Sent: Friday, 16 December 2011, 13:46
> > > > > Subject: [Shamanic Ways] Fwd: FREE Despacho Kit: Buy 4 Kits Get 1 Free
> > > > > Offer Extended Through December 31
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > I just received the following spam. I was pretty weirded out. Then I
> > > > > went to her site (www.prayerbundles.com
<http://www.prayerbundles.com>).
> > > > > Now I am speechless.
> > > > >
> > > > > What do you think?
> > > > >
> > > > > Blessings,
> > > > > ~Nick
> > > > >
> > > > > -------- Original Message --------
> > > > > Subject: FREE Despacho Kit: Buy 4 Kits Get 1 Free Offer Extended
> > > > > Through December 31
> > > > > Date: Wed, 14 Dec 2011 17:12:11 -0800
> > > > > From: Kerri Colegrove <prayerbundles@>
> > > > > To: undisclosed-recipients:;
> > > > >
> > > > > Seasons Greetings,
> > > > >
> > > > > FREE Despacho Kits are very popular this holiday season with the *Buy
4
> > > > > Kits Get 1 Free* Holiday Sale -- so we've extended this sale to Dec
31.
> > > > >
> > > > > In addition to personal use, offering despacho ceremonies to your
> > > > > community is a great way to build your practice. Here's what an
> > > > > Australian shamanic practitioner wrote...
> > > > >
> > > > > "I have just started offering Despacho Ceremonies within my
> > > > > business - and I have to say, my clients LOVE them. How
> > > > > blessed we are for this training AND how blessed I am to
> > > > > know you and your books! xoxoxo"
> > > > >
> > > > > *To take advantage of the Buy 4 Kits Get 1 Free sale call (310)
237-2421
> > > > > <tel:%28310%29%20237-2421> or email: prayerbundles@
> > > > > <mailto:prayerbundles@>.* Let us know what kits you'd like and
> > > > > we'll send you an invoice and the kits will follow.
> > > > >
> > > > > We have over a dozen despacho kits now in stock, each with very unique
> > > > > and specific action, including:
> > > > >
> > > > > *Ayni Abundance Kit* -- Put your entire New Year's wish list into this
> > > > > one, then make one monthly to keep big blessings flowing
> > > > > to you all year.
> > > > > *Aya Death Kit -- *To celebrate traditional passing or _for those
> > > > > wanting a "new life"_, these kits make an extra beautiful despacho.
> > > > > *Cuti (Protection) Kit* -- _Gets rid of toxic energy_ others have sent
> > > > > to you (usually unwittingly) via anger, resentment, envy, etc.,
> > > > > a must for everyone at least once.
> > > > > *Wiska (Freedom) Kit* -- _Unsticks energy vampires and such_, a must
for
> > > > > everyone at least once. Fun to make.
> > > > > *House Cleanse Kit* - Combine this one and the two above, wiska and
> > > > > cuti, for a *Giant Triple Cleanse* to start the New Year off
> > > > > squeaky clean energetically. _Great
> > > > > help for selling a house_.
> > > > > *Feminine Healing Kit* - Transforms emotional trauma into strength,
> > > > > _helps men get in better touch with their feelings_.
> > > > > *Masculine Healing Kit* - Gals, empowers you by empowering your inner
> > > > > masculine. Guys, great for your career.
> > > > > *Wedding Celebration Kit* -- Brings extra blessings to newlyweds.
> > > > > *Birth Celebration Kit* -- Brings extra blessings to newborn babes.
> > > > > *New Path Kit *-- To support a big direction change in life.
> > > > > *Money Kit* -- Special action to attract more money.
> > > > > *Mastery of Time Kit* -- People who make this one have discovered
extra
> > > > > time, gets you in right relationship with time so you
> > > > > have _plenty of time for everything_!
> > > > > *Bee Kit* -- Honors the energetic archetype of the bee to help you
> > > > > foster more community and productivity -- great for business.
> > > > >
> > > > > The Ayni Kit is $35. All other kits are $37 each. Shipping for 5 kits
is
> > > > > $20.
> > > > >
> > > > > To*Buy 4 Kits Get 1 Free, call (310) 237-2421
<tel:%28310%29%20237-2421>
> > > > > or email: prayerbundles@ <mailto:prayerbundles@>.*
> > > > > Give us a list of the kits you want so we can send you an invoice and
> > > > > then the kits. We will confirm your order within 24 hours. If you have
> > > > > any questions please call.
> > > > >
> > > > > Thank you to all our customers and friends for making 2011 such a
great
> > > > > year for us. We look forward to helping make 2012 a great year for
you.
> > > > >
> > > > > --
> > > > > Kerri Colegrove
> > > > > Prayer Bundles
> > > > > (310) 237-2421 <tel:%28310%29%20237-2421>
> > > > > www.prayerbundles.com <http://www.prayerbundles.com>
> > > > > Ignite Your Life!
> > > > >
> > > > > To receive no more emails from Prayer Bundles, reply to this email
with
> > > > > the message "unsubscribe." Thank you.
> > > > >
> > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> > > > >
> > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > >
> > > > --
> > > > Per pale argent and purpure, two phoenixes counterchanged sable and
argent
> > > > each rising from flames proper.
> > > >
> > > > "It is sometimes the most fragile things that have the power to endure
and
> > > > become sources of strength."
> > > > - May Sarton
> > > >
> > > > "Only a life lived in the service to others is worth living."- Albert
> > > > Einstein
> > > >
> > > > "Out of clutter, find Simplicity. From discord, find Harmony. In the
middle
> > > > of difficulty lies opportunity." - Albert Einstein
> > > >
> > > > "And the day came when the risk to remain tight in a bud was more
painful
> > > > than the risk it took to blossom." - Anais Nin
> > > >
> > > > "Go confidently in the direction of your dreams. Live the life you have
> > > > imagined." - Henry David Thoreau
> > > >
> > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> > > >
> > > > ------------------------------------
> > > >
> > > > Note that all attachments are removed to minimize the possible spread of
viruses.Yahoo! Groups Links
> > > >
> > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > ------------------------------------
> > >
> > > Note that all attachments are removed to minimize the possible spread of
viruses.Yahoo! Groups Links
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> > >
> >
> >
>
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>

I agree with you in many ways, and it has happened in some form since the first
man/woman came to realise that beating another over
the head and disempowering them brought rewards of some kind. The crimes that
have been and will in the future be comitted are inexcusable within
any true humanitarian or spiritual framework.



In my understanding, no one can be a called a  'shaman' unless they are of
siberian lineage. Although that same role can be found within many other
societies, that term is siberian and historically most cultures have their own
terms. I am aware of the suffering that has generated rightful sensitivities in
many cultures, although I don't agree that ignorant or avarice led appropriation
is automatically bad for them. I am not talking about conversion either,
although I do feel I understand the puzzlement that some people would feel at
that concept. The Quabalism I mentioned has been appropriated in a sense and is
now regarded as a part of The Western Mystery Tradition. It is not Judaic, nor
does it expect any conversion, and it bears no resemblance whatsoever to the
Madonna style of mumbo jumbo.


However I do feel, maybe wrongly, that 'borrowing' a ceremony by definition
automatically ivalidates it. It is not empowered by the spiritual and ancestral
lineage, and therefore is not even the thing that was 'borrowed'. To me the
'despacho' issue is similar, in that as soon as that woman decided to do what
she is doing she invalidated something that she felt 'entitled' (for whatever
reason) to make money from. In fact she invalidates it every time she sells
something or advertises it Yes, that is a questionable thing, and I am sure that
in some way she will eventually be directed to redress the balance-if the powers
that be wish it so. In the meantime if her 'work' opens someones mind to the
potential of seeking their own truth, then I think that is good. I truly hope
that peoples such as the Native Americans etc do manage to propagate their
beliefs and return to their own ways. Theirs are in relatively recent history,
so in a sense they are lucky. The
  christian avalanche smashed and dismembered ours a long time before-so it is
harder for us.I suppose our ancient beliefs don't matter though to many as the
focus is on relatively recent times-our murders and suppresion were long ago.


Re my analogy of the runes,it was only an example and  I know many people who
would very strongly disagree with you as they live their lives as close to their
indigenous culture as possible. As close I would say as many other indigenous
people who take advantage of modern conveniences such as cars or tv's etc. Your
post seems to suggest that if someone is not siberian or native american they
cannot understand, and I feel that displays more than a little insensitivity to
those of other cultures who work hard to restablish their old beliefs.


For my part I have a great faith in the spirit that shapes our lives and directs
us, and I think my main point is that we can mire ourselves in argument over
words and sensitivities and lose sight of the truly spiritual or we can just get
on with it and work to our collective strengths.

Andrew




________________________________
  From: yzermongol <yzermongol@...>
To: ShamanicWays@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Monday, 19 December 2011, 1:21
Subject: Re: [Shamanic Ways] Fwd: FREE Despacho Kit: Buy 4 Kits Get 1 Free Offer
Extended Through December 31


 
Hello Andrew,

I wanted to respond to your post- just to try to give you an indigenous
perspective. The Abrahamic faiths (Christianity, Judaism, and Islam) are all
open to converts and sometimes even force people into conversion. Allowing
others to follow their belief system is normal for their faith and is often
encouraged. When a person is raised around faiths like this, it is difficult to
understand how other spiritual traditions might not be as welcoming to converts
or sharing their sacred traditions.
However, many indigenous people see their traditions as part of their cultural
and racial identity. There is no concept of conversion and they would really be
shocked and curious if someone approached them with the idea. Furthermore, it
can be a sore-spot for those who had their lands appropriated and other
atrocities done to their people. In their view, enough has already been "taken"
from them. "Borrowing ceremonies" often falls into this catagory from their
point of view.
It is difficult to clearly understand others that are raised with a different
world view. So although you might not be offended if people tried out runes, you
are coming from a different perspective than many native people. Just food for
thought.

--- In ShamanicWays@yahoogroups.com, andrew docker <see2dream@...> wrote:
>
> Hi Aaron,
>
> In a sense that is what I am trying to get at, and obviously I feel that your
direct experiences in that area are different from mine-and undoubtedly more
knowledgeable. The 'despacho' thing is not the real thing either-but does it
matter?.
>
>
> Some years ago I was involved in organising lectures on various metaphysical
subjects in Manchester, We had Warren Kenton speak twice, and our private
conversations were very memorable. There were many elders and rabbis of that
faith present, and what an amazing interplay of ideas and theories-I will never
forget it. My son, who was very young then still talks about it.
>
>
> 'but rather take the stand that it doesn't matter because it's simply not the
same thing!' Thats exactly what I mean Aaron! Instead of fooling around blaming
those terrible white usurpers of indigenous knowledge, why can't we celebrate
the spreading of knowledge throughout the world-knowledge that frees humanity
from bondage, and lets the soul fly free.
>
>
> Are we on a spiritual quest, or wrapping ourselves up in base mundane
bickering? Why don't we take all the good and work on that. When I talk to
spirit, it never refuses to let me in,or ask me what language I speak, it is
universal. Should I ignore the teaching contacts that have been with me for many
years because they are not of my present geographical location? Have I always
manifested on earth in this location? No... I think that we have to look way
beyond the petty minor tensions and see the universal picture-we are all One!
>
> How can we carry our work forward if we shackle ourselves with chains of
ignorance?
>
>
> Andrew
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> ________________________________
>  From: Aaron <aaronreid19103@...>
> To: ShamanicWays@yahoogroups.com
> Sent: Sunday, 18 December 2011, 22:53
> Subject: Re: [Shamanic Ways] Fwd: FREE Despacho Kit: Buy 4 Kits Get 1 Free
Offer Extended Through December 31
>
> Andrew,
>
> I'm in almost complete agreement, especially with your last paragraph.
> I do have to say that there is one thing with which we have a different
experience; you wrote:
> > "It is similar to the adption of the Quabalah as a system of knowledge by
the west. However, those who celebrate it in its original form that I know are
pleased that it has been adopted as a system of self-development, and claim no
ownership as they see all higher knowledge as being the divine right of humanity
in general."
> >
> I grew up in a traditionally Jewish environment and the "Quabalah" being
thrown around is definitely NOT respected among traditional Hebrew scholars. 
While I will agree that they are more tolerant than some and don't outwardly or
publicly object to these practices, it is because they believe the "Quabalah"
that was made popular in the past couple decades is just a watered down, untrue
version of Kabbalah.  Even my father, who is a Hebrew scholar will not study
Kabbalah as he doesn't even feel he is someone who should delve into such
teachings.  So, the main difference is that they don't hem and haw about their
tradition being stolen, but rather take the stand that it doesn't matter because
it's simply not the same thing.
>
> Blessings,
> Aaron
>
> On Dec 18, 2011, at 2:55 PM, andrew docker wrote:
>
> > And therefore not to be taken so seriously then I would have
> > thought! It is similar to the adption of the Quabalah as a system of
> > knowledge by the west. However, those who celebrate it in its original
> > form that I know are pleased that it has been adopted as a system of
> > self-development, and claim no ownership as they see all higher
> > knowledge as being the divine right of humanity in general. I really
> > don't see why the strong feelings here. If I collect items available to
> > me locally for my workings (as I do) then that is essentially the same
> > thing as she sells-and it is a common world-wide practice. If I saw a
> > post on here from a person of that belief that criticised her actions
> > then fair enough-but I don't think I have yet.
> >
> > If I minded people making runesets and calling them runes even though they
are not of my culture or beliefs, then I would be kept very busy
> > complaining. I have spoken to wise people of other cultures to myself
> > who feel strongly that their knowledge can be the key to humanities
> > evolution and understanding (that is why they teach), and I have not
> > heard these concerns mentioned.
> >
> > I think I would rather look outwards at the common similarities amongst
> > those who work for good than pick over words. The world in a sense is
> > shrinking and to me anything (like this even) that provokes thought in
> > people and causes them to explore for themselves has to be good. Ok-she
> > may make a little money-but if it leads to a few people opening their
> > perceptions then for one I don't really care!
> >
> > Andrew
> >
> > ________________________________
> > From: Branwyn ni
> >
> > ________________________________
> > From: Branwyn ni Druaidh <welshwmn3@...>
> > To: ShamanicWays@yahoogroups.com
> > Sent: Sunday, 18 December 2011, 17:29
> > Subject: Re: [Shamanic Ways] Fwd: FREE Despacho Kit: Buy 4 Kits Get 1 Free
Offer Extended Through December 31
> >
> > "There is no religion associated with prayer bundles, they're compatible
> > with all beliefs."
> >
> > That is patently untrue.  The despachos are part of
> > the indigenous Incan/Inkan religious practices.  The religion is very
> > strong in in the worship/reverence of the Directions, the Mountains, Nature
> > et al.  To say that the despachos have no religious association is to say
> > that the Pipe Ceremony has no religious association, that the Blessing Way
> > has no religious association, that the Roman Catholic "Last Rights" have no
> > religious association.
> >
> > This appears to be another example of a white person taking what they want
> > of the teachings of the indigenous people, dropping what they don't want,
> > and selling and profiting from things they don't truly understand.
> >
> > *sighs*
> > Bronwen
> >
> > On Sun, Dec 18, 2011 at 2:02 AM, andrew docker <see2dream@...>wrote:
> >
> > > **
> > >
> > >
> > > 'To bring about change in accordance with the will'. That is the accepted
> > > definition of magical practice.
> > >
> > > I don't see anything strange about this. Isn't it similar to people
> > > charging money for courses etc? I feel that if it opens peoples eyes to
the
> > > potential of changing their lives for the better then how can it be
strange
> > > or different from buying a book?
> > >
> > > Andy
> > >
> > > ________________________________
> > > From: Nick Noble Wolf <true_dog@...>
> > > To: Shamanic Ways <ShamanicWays@yahoogroups.com>
> > > Sent: Friday, 16 December 2011, 13:46
> > > Subject: [Shamanic Ways] Fwd: FREE Despacho Kit: Buy 4 Kits Get 1 Free
> > > Offer Extended Through December 31
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > I just received the following spam. I was pretty weirded out. Then I
> > > went to her site (www.prayerbundles.com <http://www.prayerbundles.com>).
> > > Now I am speechless.
> > >
> > > What do you think?
> > >
> > > Blessings,
> > > ~Nick
> > >
> > > -------- Original Message --------
> > > Subject: FREE Despacho Kit: Buy 4 Kits Get 1 Free Offer Extended
> > > Through December 31
> > > Date: Wed, 14 Dec 2011 17:12:11 -0800
> > > From: Kerri Colegrove <prayerbundles@...>
> > > To: undisclosed-recipients:;
> > >
> > > Seasons Greetings,
> > >
> > > FREE Despacho Kits are very popular this holiday season with the *Buy 4
> > > Kits Get 1 Free* Holiday Sale -- so we've extended this sale to Dec 31.
> > >
> > > In addition to personal use, offering despacho ceremonies to your
> > > community is a great way to build your practice. Here's what an
> > > Australian shamanic practitioner wrote...
> > >
> > > "I have just started offering Despacho Ceremonies within my
> > > business - and I have to say, my clients LOVE them. How
> > > blessed we are for this training AND how blessed I am to
> > > know you and your books! xoxoxo"
> > >
> > > *To take advantage of the Buy 4 Kits Get 1 Free sale call (310) 237-2421
> > > <tel:%28310%29%20237-2421> or email: prayerbundles@...
> > > <mailto:prayerbundles@...>.* Let us know what kits you'd like and
> > > we'll send you an invoice and the kits will follow.
> > >
> > > We have over a dozen despacho kits now in stock, each with very unique
> > > and specific action, including:
> > >
> > > *Ayni Abundance Kit* -- Put your entire New Year's wish list into this
> > > one, then make one monthly to keep big blessings flowing
> > > to you all year.
> > > *Aya Death Kit -- *To celebrate traditional passing or _for those
> > > wanting a "new life"_, these kits make an extra beautiful despacho.
> > > *Cuti (Protection) Kit* -- _Gets rid of toxic energy_ others have sent
> > > to you (usually unwittingly) via anger, resentment, envy, etc.,
> > > a must for everyone at least once.
> > > *Wiska (Freedom) Kit* -- _Unsticks energy vampires and such_, a must for
> > > everyone at least once. Fun to make.
> > > *House Cleanse Kit* - Combine this one and the two above, wiska and
> > > cuti, for a *Giant Triple Cleanse* to start the New Year off
> > > squeaky clean energetically. _Great
> > > help for selling a house_.
> > > *Feminine Healing Kit* - Transforms emotional trauma into strength,
> > > _helps men get in better touch with their feelings_.
> > > *Masculine Healing Kit* - Gals, empowers you by empowering your inner
> > > masculine. Guys, great for your career.
> > > *Wedding Celebration Kit* -- Brings extra blessings to newlyweds.
> > > *Birth Celebration Kit* -- Brings extra blessings to newborn babes.
> > > *New Path Kit *-- To support a big direction change in life.
> > > *Money Kit* -- Special action to attract more money.
> > > *Mastery of Time Kit* -- People who make this one have discovered extra
> > > time, gets you in right relationship with time so you
> > > have _plenty of time for everything_!
> > > *Bee Kit* -- Honors the energetic archetype of the bee to help you
> > > foster more community and productivity -- great for business.
> > >
> > > The Ayni Kit is $35. All other kits are $37 each. Shipping for 5 kits is
> > > $20.
> > >
> > > To*Buy 4 Kits Get 1 Free, call (310) 237-2421 <tel:%28310%29%20237-2421>
> > > or email: prayerbundles@... <mailto:prayerbundles@...>.*
> > > Give us a list of the kits you want so we can send you an invoice and
> > > then the kits. We will confirm your order within 24 hours. If you have
> > > any questions please call.
> > >
> > > Thank you to all our customers and friends for making 2011 such a great
> > > year for us. We look forward to helping make 2012 a great year for you.
> > >
> > > --
> > > Kerri Colegrove
> > > Prayer Bundles
> > > (310) 237-2421 <tel:%28310%29%20237-2421>
> > > www.prayerbundles.com <http://www.prayerbundles.com>
> > > Ignite Your Life!
> > >
> > > To receive no more emails from Prayer Bundles, reply to this email with
> > > the message "unsubscribe." Thank you.
> > >
> > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> > >
> > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> > >
> > > 
> > >
> >
> > --
> > Per pale argent and purpure, two phoenixes counterchanged sable and argent
> > each rising from flames proper.
> >
> > "It is sometimes the most fragile things that have the power to endure and
> > become sources of strength."
> > - May Sarton
> >
> > "Only a life lived in the service to others is worth living."- Albert
> > Einstein
> >
> > "Out of clutter, find Simplicity. From discord, find Harmony. In the middle
> > of difficulty lies opportunity." - Albert Einstein
> >
> > "And the day came when the risk to remain tight in a bud was more painful
> > than the risk it took to blossom." - Anais Nin
> >
> > "Go confidently in the direction of your dreams. Live the life you have
> > imagined." - Henry David Thoreau
> >
> > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> >
> > ------------------------------------
> >
> > Note that all attachments are removed to minimize the possible spread of
viruses.Yahoo! Groups Links
> >
> > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> >
> >
> >
>
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
>
> ------------------------------------
>
> Note that all attachments are removed to minimize the possible spread of
viruses.Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>




[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Steve … please re-read the posts to clarify who said what.  I said none of those
things in your second paragraph; I think you are lumping me and Andy together.
The only thing I agreed with Andy about is that Spiritual development of any
kind is good; I do NOT condone any of the things you discuss, but simply find it
unhealthy to hold on to anger over what others are doing, no matter how "wrong".
I don't expect it to be seen as a compliment and certainly don't expect it to be
accepted as the same.
Aaron
On Dec 19, 2011, at 10:59 AM, yzermongol wrote:

> Aaron,
>
> While I agree that Christianity and Islam do convert far more than Judaism, my
point was that the concept of conversion is not completely foreign. In any case,
instead of just focussing on that- how about responding to the meat of my post?
I was trying to explain why indegenous people *do* have a problem with the
misappropriation of their culture and ceremonies. They do not see it as a
"compliment". The only reason that white people wish they would see it as a
compliment is so that they don't have to feel guilty by profaning their
religion.
> To be honest, I am really shocked at some of your insensitive comments on the
subject. Things you said like indegenous people were "blaming the terrible white
usurpers" make you seem to others as if you are making light of the atrocities
that have occured. In Siberia, even in recent times shamans have been killed for
practicing their beliefs. They were taken up in helicopters and thrown out to
their deaths. This is too recent to have "gotten over" by now. Your sense of
entitlement is epic.
> Steve
>
> --- In ShamanicWays@yahoogroups.com, Aaron <aaronreid19103@...> wrote:
> >
> > Hi Steve. I completely understand your point of view, so I'd like to express
my sincere distaste for lumping Judaism, with Islam and Christianity … either by
saying the Abrahamic faiths or using the term Judeo-Christian. While I no longer
consider myself a part of the Jewish religion, it was my root spiritual base
before expanding my consciousness out of the realm of religion and my change of
view when reaching the age of 15 regarding the bible.
> >
> > The one specific difference that applies to your post is that traditionally,
conversion to Judaism is frowned upon; they definitely do not seek converts or
attempt to convert others, and those who seek out becoming Jewish and asking for
conversion must go through rigorous education and examination before it will
even be accepted (and then only by some groups of Jews). Since Judaism itself
has been watered down to several sects as well, there may be easier methods of
conversion among some "reform" congregations, but these are not accepted by
Traditionalists. The only reason most Rabbaim "Jewish Clergy" would even
consider conversion is when a Jewish man insists on marrying a non-Jewish
female; since Judaism is decided by the Mother, it would be done for the reason
of having the children accepted as Jewish. There are still many Jewish
traditionalists that would not even consider allowing conversion or consider a
"convert" actually Jewish.
> >
> > Just some insight as many other faiths do not have any clue about
Traditional Judaism.
> > I do not take any offense, so please do not take any of this post as such. I
simply wanted to state a point.
> > Thanks,
> > Aaron
> >
> > On Dec 18, 2011, at 8:21 PM, yzermongol wrote:
> >
> > > Hello Andrew,
> > >
> > > I wanted to respond to your post- just to try to give you an indigenous
perspective. The Abrahamic faiths (Christianity, Judaism, and Islam) are all
open to converts and sometimes even force people into conversion. Allowing
others to follow their belief system is normal for their faith and is often
encouraged. When a person is raised around faiths like this, it is difficult to
understand how other spiritual traditions might not be as welcoming to converts
or sharing their sacred traditions.
> > > However, many indigenous people see their traditions as part of their
cultural and racial identity. There is no concept of conversion and they would
really be shocked and curious if someone approached them with the idea.
Furthermore, it can be a sore-spot for those who had their lands appropriated
and other atrocities done to their people. In their view, enough has already
been "taken" from them. "Borrowing ceremonies" often falls into this catagory
from their point of view.
> > > It is difficult to clearly understand others that are raised with a
different world view. So although you might not be offended if people tried out
runes, you are coming from a different perspective than many native people. Just
food for thought.
> > >
> > > --- In ShamanicWays@yahoogroups.com, andrew docker <see2dream@> wrote:
> > > >
> > > > Hi Aaron,
> > > >
> > > > In a sense that is what I am trying to get at, and obviously I feel that
your direct experiences in that area are different from mine-and undoubtedly
more knowledgeable. The 'despacho' thing is not the real thing either-but does
it matter?.
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > Some years ago I was involved in organising lectures on various
metaphysical subjects in Manchester, We had Warren Kenton speak twice, and our
private conversations were very memorable. There were many elders and rabbis of
that faith present, and what an amazing interplay of ideas and theories-I will
never forget it. My son, who was very young then still talks about it.
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > 'but rather take the stand that it doesn't matter because it's simply
not the same thing!' Thats exactly what I mean Aaron! Instead of fooling around
blaming those terrible white usurpers of indigenous knowledge, why can't we
celebrate the spreading of knowledge throughout the world-knowledge that frees
humanity from bondage, and lets the soul fly free.
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > Are we on a spiritual quest, or wrapping ourselves up in base mundane
bickering? Why don't we take all the good and work on that. When I talk to
spirit, it never refuses to let me in,or ask me what language I speak, it is
universal. Should I ignore the teaching contacts that have been with me for many
years because they are not of my present geographical location? Have I always
manifested on earth in this location? No... I think that we have to look way
beyond the petty minor tensions and see the universal picture-we are all One!
> > > >
> > > > How can we carry our work forward if we shackle ourselves with chains of
ignorance?
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > Andrew
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > ________________________________
> > > > From: Aaron <aaronreid19103@>
> > > > To: ShamanicWays@yahoogroups.com
> > > > Sent: Sunday, 18 December 2011, 22:53
> > > > Subject: Re: [Shamanic Ways] Fwd: FREE Despacho Kit: Buy 4 Kits Get 1
Free Offer Extended Through December 31
> > > >
> > > > Andrew,
> > > >
> > > > I'm in almost complete agreement, especially with your last paragraph.
> > > > I do have to say that there is one thing with which we have a different
experience; you wrote:
> > > > > "It is similar to the adption of the Quabalah as a system of knowledge
by the west. However, those who celebrate it in its original form that I know
are pleased that it has been adopted as a system of self-development, and claim
no ownership as they see all higher knowledge as being the divine right of
humanity in general."
> > > > >
> > > > I grew up in a traditionally Jewish environment and the "Quabalah" being
thrown around is definitely NOT respected among traditional Hebrew scholars.
While I will agree that they are more tolerant than some and don't outwardly or
publicly object to these practices, it is because they believe the "Quabalah"
that was made popular in the past couple decades is just a watered down, untrue
version of Kabbalah. Even my father, who is a Hebrew scholar will not study
Kabbalah as he doesn't even feel he is someone who should delve into such
teachings. So, the main difference is that they don't hem and haw about their
tradition being stolen, but rather take the stand that it doesn't matter because
it's simply not the same thing.
> > > >
> > > > Blessings,
> > > > Aaron
> > > >
> > > > On Dec 18, 2011, at 2:55 PM, andrew docker wrote:
> > > >
> > > > > And therefore not to be taken so seriously then I would have
> > > > > thought! It is similar to the adption of the Quabalah as a system of
> > > > > knowledge by the west. However, those who celebrate it in its original
> > > > > form that I know are pleased that it has been adopted as a system of
> > > > > self-development, and claim no ownership as they see all higher
> > > > > knowledge as being the divine right of humanity in general. I really
> > > > > don't see why the strong feelings here. If I collect items available
to
> > > > > me locally for my workings (as I do) then that is essentially the same
> > > > > thing as she sells-and it is a common world-wide practice. If I saw a
> > > > > post on here from a person of that belief that criticised her actions
> > > > > then fair enough-but I don't think I have yet.
> > > > >
> > > > > If I minded people making runesets and calling them runes even though
they are not of my culture or beliefs, then I would be kept very busy
> > > > > complaining. I have spoken to wise people of other cultures to myself
> > > > > who feel strongly that their knowledge can be the key to humanities
> > > > > evolution and understanding (that is why they teach), and I have not
> > > > > heard these concerns mentioned.
> > > > >
> > > > > I think I would rather look outwards at the common similarities
amongst
> > > > > those who work for good than pick over words. The world in a sense is
> > > > > shrinking and to me anything (like this even) that provokes thought in
> > > > > people and causes them to explore for themselves has to be good.
Ok-she
> > > > > may make a little money-but if it leads to a few people opening their
> > > > > perceptions then for one I don't really care!
> > > > >
> > > > > Andrew
> > > > >
> > > > > ________________________________
> > > > > From: Branwyn ni
> > > > >
> > > > > ________________________________
> > > > > From: Branwyn ni Druaidh <welshwmn3@>
> > > > > To: ShamanicWays@yahoogroups.com
> > > > > Sent: Sunday, 18 December 2011, 17:29
> > > > > Subject: Re: [Shamanic Ways] Fwd: FREE Despacho Kit: Buy 4 Kits Get 1
Free Offer Extended Through December 31
> > > > >
> > > > > "There is no religion associated with prayer bundles, they're
compatible
> > > > > with all beliefs."
> > > > >
> > > > > That is patently untrue. The despachos are part of
> > > > > the indigenous Incan/Inkan religious practices. The religion is very
> > > > > strong in in the worship/reverence of the Directions, the Mountains,
Nature
> > > > > et al. To say that the despachos have no religious association is to
say
> > > > > that the Pipe Ceremony has no religious association, that the Blessing
Way
> > > > > has no religious association, that the Roman Catholic "Last Rights"
have no
> > > > > religious association.
> > > > >
> > > > > This appears to be another example of a white person taking what they
want
> > > > > of the teachings of the indigenous people, dropping what they don't
want,
> > > > > and selling and profiting from things they don't truly understand.
> > > > >
> > > > > *sighs*
> > > > > Bronwen
> > > > >
> > > > > On Sun, Dec 18, 2011 at 2:02 AM, andrew docker <see2dream@>wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > > > **
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > 'To bring about change in accordance with the will'. That is the
accepted
> > > > > > definition of magical practice.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > I don't see anything strange about this. Isn't it similar to people
> > > > > > charging money for courses etc? I feel that if it opens peoples eyes
to the
> > > > > > potential of changing their lives for the better then how can it be
strange
> > > > > > or different from buying a book?
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Andy
> > > > > >
> > > > > > ________________________________
> > > > > > From: Nick Noble Wolf <true_dog@>
> > > > > > To: Shamanic Ways <ShamanicWays@yahoogroups.com>
> > > > > > Sent: Friday, 16 December 2011, 13:46
> > > > > > Subject: [Shamanic Ways] Fwd: FREE Despacho Kit: Buy 4 Kits Get 1
Free
> > > > > > Offer Extended Through December 31
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > I just received the following spam. I was pretty weirded out. Then I
> > > > > > went to her site (www.prayerbundles.com
<http://www.prayerbundles.com>).
> > > > > > Now I am speechless.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > What do you think?
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Blessings,
> > > > > > ~Nick
> > > > > >
> > > > > > -------- Original Message --------
> > > > > > Subject: FREE Despacho Kit: Buy 4 Kits Get 1 Free Offer Extended
> > > > > > Through December 31
> > > > > > Date: Wed, 14 Dec 2011 17:12:11 -0800
> > > > > > From: Kerri Colegrove <prayerbundles@>
> > > > > > To: undisclosed-recipients:;
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Seasons Greetings,
> > > > > >
> > > > > > FREE Despacho Kits are very popular this holiday season with the
*Buy 4
> > > > > > Kits Get 1 Free* Holiday Sale -- so we've extended this sale to Dec
31.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > In addition to personal use, offering despacho ceremonies to your
> > > > > > community is a great way to build your practice. Here's what an
> > > > > > Australian shamanic practitioner wrote...
> > > > > >
> > > > > > "I have just started offering Despacho Ceremonies within my
> > > > > > business - and I have to say, my clients LOVE them. How
> > > > > > blessed we are for this training AND how blessed I am to
> > > > > > know you and your books! xoxoxo"
> > > > > >
> > > > > > *To take advantage of the Buy 4 Kits Get 1 Free sale call (310)
237-2421
> > > > > > <tel:%28310%29%20237-2421> or email: prayerbundles@
> > > > > > <mailto:prayerbundles@>.* Let us know what kits you'd like and
> > > > > > we'll send you an invoice and the kits will follow.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > We have over a dozen despacho kits now in stock, each with very
unique
> > > > > > and specific action, including:
> > > > > >
> > > > > > *Ayni Abundance Kit* -- Put your entire New Year's wish list into
this
> > > > > > one, then make one monthly to keep big blessings flowing
> > > > > > to you all year.
> > > > > > *Aya Death Kit -- *To celebrate traditional passing or _for those
> > > > > > wanting a "new life"_, these kits make an extra beautiful despacho.
> > > > > > *Cuti (Protection) Kit* -- _Gets rid of toxic energy_ others have
sent
> > > > > > to you (usually unwittingly) via anger, resentment, envy, etc.,
> > > > > > a must for everyone at least once.
> > > > > > *Wiska (Freedom) Kit* -- _Unsticks energy vampires and such_, a must
for
> > > > > > everyone at least once. Fun to make.
> > > > > > *House Cleanse Kit* - Combine this one and the two above, wiska and
> > > > > > cuti, for a *Giant Triple Cleanse* to start the New Year off
> > > > > > squeaky clean energetically. _Great
> > > > > > help for selling a house_.
> > > > > > *Feminine Healing Kit* - Transforms emotional trauma into strength,
> > > > > > _helps men get in better touch with their feelings_.
> > > > > > *Masculine Healing Kit* - Gals, empowers you by empowering your
inner
> > > > > > masculine. Guys, great for your career.
> > > > > > *Wedding Celebration Kit* -- Brings extra blessings to newlyweds.
> > > > > > *Birth Celebration Kit* -- Brings extra blessings to newborn babes.
> > > > > > *New Path Kit *-- To support a big direction change in life.
> > > > > > *Money Kit* -- Special action to attract more money.
> > > > > > *Mastery of Time Kit* -- People who make this one have discovered
extra
> > > > > > time, gets you in right relationship with time so you
> > > > > > have _plenty of time for everything_!
> > > > > > *Bee Kit* -- Honors the energetic archetype of the bee to help you
> > > > > > foster more community and productivity -- great for business.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > The Ayni Kit is $35. All other kits are $37 each. Shipping for 5
kits is
> > > > > > $20.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > To*Buy 4 Kits Get 1 Free, call (310) 237-2421
<tel:%28310%29%20237-2421>
> > > > > > or email: prayerbundles@ <mailto:prayerbundles@>.*
> > > > > > Give us a list of the kits you want so we can send you an invoice
and
> > > > > > then the kits. We will confirm your order within 24 hours. If you
have
> > > > > > any questions please call.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Thank you to all our customers and friends for making 2011 such a
great
> > > > > > year for us. We look forward to helping make 2012 a great year for
you.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > --
> > > > > > Kerri Colegrove
> > > > > > Prayer Bundles
> > > > > > (310) 237-2421 <tel:%28310%29%20237-2421>
> > > > > > www.prayerbundles.com <http://www.prayerbundles.com>
> > > > > > Ignite Your Life!
> > > > > >
> > > > > > To receive no more emails from Prayer Bundles, reply to this email
with
> > > > > > the message "unsubscribe." Thank you.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> > > > > >
> > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > --
> > > > > Per pale argent and purpure, two phoenixes counterchanged sable and
argent
> > > > > each rising from flames proper.
> > > > >
> > > > > "It is sometimes the most fragile things that have the power to endure
and
> > > > > become sources of strength."
> > > > > - May Sarton
> > > > >
> > > > > "Only a life lived in the service to others is worth living."- Albert
> > > > > Einstein
> > > > >
> > > > > "Out of clutter, find Simplicity. From discord, find Harmony. In the
middle
> > > > > of difficulty lies opportunity." - Albert Einstein
> > > > >
> > > > > "And the day came when the risk to remain tight in a bud was more
painful
> > > > > than the risk it took to blossom." - Anais Nin
> > > > >
> > > > > "Go confidently in the direction of your dreams. Live the life you
have
> > > > > imagined." - Henry David Thoreau
> > > > >
> > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> > > > >
> > > > > ------------------------------------
> > > > >
> > > > > Note that all attachments are removed to minimize the possible spread
of viruses.Yahoo! Groups Links
> > > > >
> > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > ------------------------------------
> > > >
> > > > Note that all attachments are removed to minimize the possible spread of
viruses.Yahoo! Groups Links
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> > > >
> > >
> > >
> >
> >
> >
> > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> >
>
>



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Ok...you got me Steve! Seriously though that comment of mine was tongue in
cheek. I don't think I am insensitive, neither do I react dogmatically.


I am aware of the recent past and its atrocities, and the most powerful feelings
are obviously generated through actual memory. However, although I have the
utmost sympathy with the victims, I refuse to get myself into an unbalanced spin
through allowing emotion to cloud my perspective. This series of posts seems to
be more concerned with anger over the past, and the past has gone. My concern is
the future, and what we can build within it. The persecution will go on, and
even in my 'civilised' country, people are still locked up or drugged for
displaying what would be recognised as 'shamanic' tendencies in truer cultures.
The church still works to marginalise non-believers, and the state backs them.
It is still going on Steve, and unfortunately there is no accepted ancient
cultural tradiiton here recognised enough to speak loudly against it.

Andy



________________________________
  From: Aaron <aaronreid19103@...>
To: ShamanicWays@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Monday, 19 December 2011, 16:47
Subject: Re: [Shamanic Ways] Fwd: FREE Despacho Kit: Buy 4 Kits Get 1 Free Offer
Extended Through December 31

Steve … please re-read the posts to clarify who said what.  I said none of
those things in your second paragraph; I think you are lumping me and Andy
together.
The only thing I agreed with Andy about is that Spiritual development of any
kind is good; I do NOT condone any of the things you discuss, but simply find it
unhealthy to hold on to anger over what others are doing, no matter how "wrong".
I don't expect it to be seen as a compliment and certainly don't expect it to be
accepted as the same.
Aaron
On Dec 19, 2011, at 10:59 AM, yzermongol wrote:

> Aaron,
>
> While I agree that Christianity and Islam do convert far more than Judaism, my
point was that the concept of conversion is not completely foreign. In any case,
instead of just focussing on that- how about responding to the meat of my post?
I was trying to explain why indegenous people *do* have a problem with the
misappropriation of their culture and ceremonies. They do not see it as a
"compliment". The only reason that white people wish they would see it as a
compliment is so that they don't have to feel guilty by profaning their
religion.
> To be honest, I am really shocked at some of your insensitive comments on the
subject. Things you said like indegenous people were "blaming the terrible white
usurpers" make you seem to others as if you are making light of the atrocities
that have occured. In Siberia, even in recent times shamans have been killed for
practicing their beliefs. They were taken up in helicopters and thrown out to
their deaths. This is too recent to have "gotten over" by now. Your sense of
entitlement is epic.
> Steve
>
> --- In ShamanicWays@yahoogroups.com, Aaron <aaronreid19103@...> wrote:
> >
> > Hi Steve. I completely understand your point of view, so I'd like to express
my sincere distaste for lumping Judaism, with Islam and Christianity … either
by saying the Abrahamic faiths or using the term Judeo-Christian. While I no
longer consider myself a part of the Jewish religion, it was my root spiritual
base before expanding my consciousness out of the realm of religion and my
change of view when reaching the age of 15 regarding the bible.
> >
> > The one specific difference that applies to your post is that traditionally,
conversion to Judaism is frowned upon; they definitely do not seek converts or
attempt to convert others, and those who seek out becoming Jewish and asking for
conversion must go through rigorous education and examination before it will
even be accepted (and then only by some groups of Jews). Since Judaism itself
has been watered down to several sects as well, there may be easier methods of
conversion among some "reform" congregations, but these are not accepted by
Traditionalists. The only reason most Rabbaim "Jewish Clergy" would even
consider conversion is when a Jewish man insists on marrying a non-Jewish
female; since Judaism is decided by the Mother, it would be done for the reason
of having the children accepted as Jewish. There are still many Jewish
traditionalists that would not even consider allowing conversion or consider a
"convert" actually Jewish.
> >
> > Just some insight as many other faiths do not have any clue about
Traditional Judaism.
> > I do not take any offense, so please do not take any of this post as such. I
simply wanted to state a point.
> > Thanks,
> > Aaron
> >
> > On Dec 18, 2011, at 8:21 PM, yzermongol wrote:
> >
> > > Hello Andrew,
> > >
> > > I wanted to respond to your post- just to try to give you an indigenous
perspective. The Abrahamic faiths (Christianity, Judaism, and Islam) are all
open to converts and sometimes even force people into conversion. Allowing
others to follow their belief system is normal for their faith and is often
encouraged. When a person is raised around faiths like this, it is difficult to
understand how other spiritual traditions might not be as welcoming to converts
or sharing their sacred traditions.
> > > However, many indigenous people see their traditions as part of their
cultural and racial identity. There is no concept of conversion and they would
really be shocked and curious if someone approached them with the idea.
Furthermore, it can be a sore-spot for those who had their lands appropriated
and other atrocities done to their people. In their view, enough has already
been "taken" from them. "Borrowing ceremonies" often falls into this catagory
from their point of view.
> > > It is difficult to clearly understand others that are raised with a
different world view. So although you might not be offended if people tried out
runes, you are coming from a different perspective than many native people. Just
food for thought.
> > >
> > > --- In ShamanicWays@yahoogroups.com, andrew docker <see2dream@> wrote:
> > > >
> > > > Hi Aaron,
> > > >
> > > > In a sense that is what I am trying to get at, and obviously I feel that
your direct experiences in that area are different from mine-and undoubtedly
more knowledgeable. The 'despacho' thing is not the real thing either-but does
it matter?.
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > Some years ago I was involved in organising lectures on various
metaphysical subjects in Manchester, We had Warren Kenton speak twice, and our
private conversations were very memorable. There were many elders and rabbis of
that faith present, and what an amazing interplay of ideas and theories-I will
never forget it. My son, who was very young then still talks about it.
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > 'but rather take the stand that it doesn't matter because it's simply
not the same thing!' Thats exactly what I mean Aaron! Instead of fooling around
blaming those terrible white usurpers of indigenous knowledge, why can't we
celebrate the spreading of knowledge throughout the world-knowledge that frees
humanity from bondage, and lets the soul fly free.
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > Are we on a spiritual quest, or wrapping ourselves up in base mundane
bickering? Why don't we take all the good and work on that. When I talk to
spirit, it never refuses to let me in,or ask me what language I speak, it is
universal. Should I ignore the teaching contacts that have been with me for many
years because they are not of my present geographical location? Have I always
manifested on earth in this location? No... I think that we have to look way
beyond the petty minor tensions and see the universal picture-we are all One!
> > > >
> > > > How can we carry our work forward if we shackle ourselves with chains of
ignorance?
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > Andrew
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > ________________________________
> > > > From: Aaron <aaronreid19103@>
> > > > To: ShamanicWays@yahoogroups.com
> > > > Sent: Sunday, 18 December 2011, 22:53
> > > > Subject: Re: [Shamanic Ways] Fwd: FREE Despacho Kit: Buy 4 Kits Get 1
Free Offer Extended Through December 31
> > > >
> > > > Andrew,
> > > >
> > > > I'm in almost complete agreement, especially with your last paragraph.
> > > > I do have to say that there is one thing with which we have a different
experience; you wrote:
> > > > > "It is similar to the adption of the Quabalah as a system of knowledge
by the west. However, those who celebrate it in its original form that I know
are pleased that it has been adopted as a system of self-development, and claim
no ownership as they see all higher knowledge as being the divine right of
humanity in general."
> > > > >
> > > > I grew up in a traditionally Jewish environment and the "Quabalah" being
thrown around is definitely NOT respected among traditional Hebrew scholars.
While I will agree that they are more tolerant than some and don't outwardly or
publicly object to these practices, it is because they believe the "Quabalah"
that was made popular in the past couple decades is just a watered down, untrue
version of Kabbalah. Even my father, who is a Hebrew scholar will not study
Kabbalah as he doesn't even feel he is someone who should delve into such
teachings. So, the main difference is that they don't hem and haw about their
tradition being stolen, but rather take the stand that it doesn't matter because
it's simply not the same thing.
> > > >
> > > > Blessings,
> > > > Aaron
> > > >
> > > > On Dec 18, 2011, at 2:55 PM, andrew docker wrote:
> > > >
> > > > > And therefore not to be taken so seriously then I would have
> > > > > thought! It is similar to the adption of the Quabalah as a system of
> > > > > knowledge by the west. However, those who celebrate it in its original
> > > > > form that I know are pleased that it has been adopted as a system of
> > > > > self-development, and claim no ownership as they see all higher
> > > > > knowledge as being the divine right of humanity in general. I really
> > > > > don't see why the strong feelings here. If I collect items available
to
> > > > > me locally for my workings (as I do) then that is essentially the same
> > > > > thing as she sells-and it is a common world-wide practice. If I saw a
> > > > > post on here from a person of that belief that criticised her actions
> > > > > then fair enough-but I don't think I have yet.
> > > > >
> > > > > If I minded people making runesets and calling them runes even though
they are not of my culture or beliefs, then I would be kept very busy
> > > > > complaining. I have spoken to wise people of other cultures to myself
> > > > > who feel strongly that their knowledge can be the key to humanities
> > > > > evolution and understanding (that is why they teach), and I have not
> > > > > heard these concerns mentioned.
> > > > >
> > > > > I think I would rather look outwards at the common similarities
amongst
> > > > > those who work for good than pick over words. The world in a sense is
> > > > > shrinking and to me anything (like this even) that provokes thought in
> > > > > people and causes them to explore for themselves has to be good.
Ok-she
> > > > > may make a little money-but if it leads to a few people opening their
> > > > > perceptions then for one I don't really care!
> > > > >
> > > > > Andrew
> > > > >
> > > > > ________________________________
> > > > > From: Branwyn ni
> > > > >
> > > > > ________________________________
> > > > > From: Branwyn ni Druaidh <welshwmn3@>
> > > > > To: ShamanicWays@yahoogroups.com
> > > > > Sent: Sunday, 18 December 2011, 17:29
> > > > > Subject: Re: [Shamanic Ways] Fwd: FREE Despacho Kit: Buy 4 Kits Get 1
Free Offer Extended Through December 31
> > > > >
> > > > > "There is no religion associated with prayer bundles, they're
compatible
> > > > > with all beliefs."
> > > > >
> > > > > That is patently untrue. The despachos are part of
> > > > > the indigenous Incan/Inkan religious practices. The religion is very
> > > > > strong in in the worship/reverence of the Directions, the Mountains,
Nature
> > > > > et al. To say that the despachos have no religious association is to
say
> > > > > that the Pipe Ceremony has no religious association, that the Blessing
Way
> > > > > has no religious association, that the Roman Catholic "Last Rights"
have no
> > > > > religious association.
> > > > >
> > > > > This appears to be another example of a white person taking what they
want
> > > > > of the teachings of the indigenous people, dropping what they don't
want,
> > > > > and selling and profiting from things they don't truly understand.
> > > > >
> > > > > *sighs*
> > > > > Bronwen
> > > > >
> > > > > On Sun, Dec 18, 2011 at 2:02 AM, andrew docker <see2dream@>wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > > > **
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > 'To bring about change in accordance with the will'. That is the
accepted
> > > > > > definition of magical practice.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > I don't see anything strange about this. Isn't it similar to people
> > > > > > charging money for courses etc? I feel that if it opens peoples eyes
to the
> > > > > > potential of changing their lives for the better then how can it be
strange
> > > > > > or different from buying a book?
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Andy
> > > > > >
> > > > > > ________________________________
> > > > > > From: Nick Noble Wolf <true_dog@>
> > > > > > To: Shamanic Ways <ShamanicWays@yahoogroups.com>
> > > > > > Sent: Friday, 16 December 2011, 13:46
> > > > > > Subject: [Shamanic Ways] Fwd: FREE Despacho Kit: Buy 4 Kits Get 1
Free
> > > > > > Offer Extended Through December 31
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > I just received the following spam. I was pretty weirded out. Then I
> > > > > > went to her site (www.prayerbundles.com
<http://www.prayerbundles.com>).
> > > > > > Now I am speechless.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > What do you think?
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Blessings,
> > > > > > ~Nick
> > > > > >
> > > > > > -------- Original Message --------
> > > > > > Subject: FREE Despacho Kit: Buy 4 Kits Get 1 Free Offer Extended
> > > > > > Through December 31
> > > > > > Date: Wed, 14 Dec 2011 17:12:11 -0800
> > > > > > From: Kerri Colegrove <prayerbundles@>
> > > > > > To: undisclosed-recipients:;
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Seasons Greetings,
> > > > > >
> > > > > > FREE Despacho Kits are very popular this holiday season with the
*Buy 4
> > > > > > Kits Get 1 Free* Holiday Sale -- so we've extended this sale to Dec
31.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > In addition to personal use, offering despacho ceremonies to your
> > > > > > community is a great way to build your practice. Here's what an
> > > > > > Australian shamanic practitioner wrote...
> > > > > >
> > > > > > "I have just started offering Despacho Ceremonies within my
> > > > > > business - and I have to say, my clients LOVE them. How
> > > > > > blessed we are for this training AND how blessed I am to
> > > > > > know you and your books! xoxoxo"
> > > > > >
> > > > > > *To take advantage of the Buy 4 Kits Get 1 Free sale call (310)
237-2421
> > > > > > <tel:%28310%29%20237-2421> or email: prayerbundles@
> > > > > > <mailto:prayerbundles@>.* Let us know what kits you'd like and
> > > > > > we'll send you an invoice and the kits will follow.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > We have over a dozen despacho kits now in stock, each with very
unique
> > > > > > and specific action, including:
> > > > > >
> > > > > > *Ayni Abundance Kit* -- Put your entire New Year's wish list into
this
> > > > > > one, then make one monthly to keep big blessings flowing
> > > > > > to you all year.
> > > > > > *Aya Death Kit -- *To celebrate traditional passing or _for those
> > > > > > wanting a "new life"_, these kits make an extra beautiful despacho.
> > > > > > *Cuti (Protection) Kit* -- _Gets rid of toxic energy_ others have
sent
> > > > > > to you (usually unwittingly) via anger, resentment, envy, etc.,
> > > > > > a must for everyone at least once.
> > > > > > *Wiska (Freedom) Kit* -- _Unsticks energy vampires and such_, a must
for
> > > > > > everyone at least once. Fun to make.
> > > > > > *House Cleanse Kit* - Combine this one and the two above, wiska and
> > > > > > cuti, for a *Giant Triple Cleanse* to start the New Year off
> > > > > > squeaky clean energetically. _Great
> > > > > > help for selling a house_.
> > > > > > *Feminine Healing Kit* - Transforms emotional trauma into strength,
> > > > > > _helps men get in better touch with their feelings_.
> > > > > > *Masculine Healing Kit* - Gals, empowers you by empowering your
inner
> > > > > > masculine. Guys, great for your career.
> > > > > > *Wedding Celebration Kit* -- Brings extra blessings to newlyweds.
> > > > > > *Birth Celebration Kit* -- Brings extra blessings to newborn babes.
> > > > > > *New Path Kit *-- To support a big direction change in life.
> > > > > > *Money Kit* -- Special action to attract more money.
> > > > > > *Mastery of Time Kit* -- People who make this one have discovered
extra
> > > > > > time, gets you in right relationship with time so you
> > > > > > have _plenty of time for everything_!
> > > > > > *Bee Kit* -- Honors the energetic archetype of the bee to help you
> > > > > > foster more community and productivity -- great for business.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > The Ayni Kit is $35. All other kits are $37 each. Shipping for 5
kits is
> > > > > > $20.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > To*Buy 4 Kits Get 1 Free, call (310) 237-2421
<tel:%28310%29%20237-2421>
> > > > > > or email: prayerbundles@ <mailto:prayerbundles@>.*
> > > > > > Give us a list of the kits you want so we can send you an invoice
and
> > > > > > then the kits. We will confirm your order within 24 hours. If you
have
> > > > > > any questions please call.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Thank you to all our customers and friends for making 2011 such a
great
> > > > > > year for us. We look forward to helping make 2012 a great year for
you.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > --
> > > > > > Kerri Colegrove
> > > > > > Prayer Bundles
> > > > > > (310) 237-2421 <tel:%28310%29%20237-2421>
> > > > > > www.prayerbundles.com <http://www.prayerbundles.com>
> > > > > > Ignite Your Life!
> > > > > >
> > > > > > To receive no more emails from Prayer Bundles, reply to this email
with
> > > > > > the message "unsubscribe." Thank you.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> > > > > >
> > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > --
> > > > > Per pale argent and purpure, two phoenixes counterchanged sable and
argent
> > > > > each rising from flames proper.
> > > > >
> > > > > "It is sometimes the most fragile things that have the power to endure
and
> > > > > become sources of strength."
> > > > > - May Sarton
> > > > >
> > > > > "Only a life lived in the service to others is worth living."- Albert
> > > > > Einstein
> > > > >
> > > > > "Out of clutter, find Simplicity. From discord, find Harmony. In the
middle
> > > > > of difficulty lies opportunity." - Albert Einstein
> > > > >
> > > > > "And the day came when the risk to remain tight in a bud was more
painful
> > > > > than the risk it took to blossom." - Anais Nin
> > > > >
> > > > > "Go confidently in the direction of your dreams. Live the life you
have
> > > > > imagined." - Henry David Thoreau
> > > > >
> > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> > > > >
> > > > > ------------------------------------
> > > > >
> > > > > Note that all attachments are removed to minimize the possible spread
of viruses.Yahoo! Groups Links
> > > > >
> > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > ------------------------------------
> > > >
> > > > Note that all attachments are removed to minimize the possible spread of
viruses.Yahoo! Groups Links
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> > > >
> > >
> > >
> >
> >
> >
> > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> >
>
>



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]



------------------------------------

Note that all attachments are removed to minimize the possible spread of
viruses.Yahoo! Groups Links



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Sorry Aaron!

--- In ShamanicWays@yahoogroups.com, Aaron <aaronreid19103@...> wrote:
>
> Steve … please re-read the posts to clarify who said what.  I said none of
those things in your second paragraph; I think you are lumping me and Andy
together.
> The only thing I agreed with Andy about is that Spiritual development of any
kind is good; I do NOT condone any of the things you discuss, but simply find it
unhealthy to hold on to anger over what others are doing, no matter how "wrong".
> I don't expect it to be seen as a compliment and certainly don't expect it to
be accepted as the same.
> Aaron
> On Dec 19, 2011, at 10:59 AM, yzermongol wrote:
>
> > Aaron,
> >
> > While I agree that Christianity and Islam do convert far more than Judaism,
my point was that the concept of conversion is not completely foreign. In any
case, instead of just focussing on that- how about responding to the meat of my
post? I was trying to explain why indegenous people *do* have a problem with the
misappropriation of their culture and ceremonies. They do not see it as a
"compliment". The only reason that white people wish they would see it as a
compliment is so that they don't have to feel guilty by profaning their
religion.
> > To be honest, I am really shocked at some of your insensitive comments on
the subject. Things you said like indegenous people were "blaming the terrible
white usurpers" make you seem to others as if you are making light of the
atrocities that have occured. In Siberia, even in recent times shamans have been
killed for practicing their beliefs. They were taken up in helicopters and
thrown out to their deaths. This is too recent to have "gotten over" by now.
Your sense of entitlement is epic.
> > Steve
> >
> > --- In ShamanicWays@yahoogroups.com, Aaron <aaronreid19103@> wrote:
> > >
> > > Hi Steve. I completely understand your point of view, so I'd like to
express my sincere distaste for lumping Judaism, with Islam and Christianity …
either by saying the Abrahamic faiths or using the term Judeo-Christian. While I
no longer consider myself a part of the Jewish religion, it was my root
spiritual base before expanding my consciousness out of the realm of religion
and my change of view when reaching the age of 15 regarding the bible.
> > >
> > > The one specific difference that applies to your post is that
traditionally, conversion to Judaism is frowned upon; they definitely do not
seek converts or attempt to convert others, and those who seek out becoming
Jewish and asking for conversion must go through rigorous education and
examination before it will even be accepted (and then only by some groups of
Jews). Since Judaism itself has been watered down to several sects as well,
there may be easier methods of conversion among some "reform" congregations, but
these are not accepted by Traditionalists. The only reason most Rabbaim "Jewish
Clergy" would even consider conversion is when a Jewish man insists on marrying
a non-Jewish female; since Judaism is decided by the Mother, it would be done
for the reason of having the children accepted as Jewish. There are still many
Jewish traditionalists that would not even consider allowing conversion or
consider a "convert" actually Jewish.
> > >
> > > Just some insight as many other faiths do not have any clue about
Traditional Judaism.
> > > I do not take any offense, so please do not take any of this post as such.
I simply wanted to state a point.
> > > Thanks,
> > > Aaron
> > >
> > > On Dec 18, 2011, at 8:21 PM, yzermongol wrote:
> > >
> > > > Hello Andrew,
> > > >
> > > > I wanted to respond to your post- just to try to give you an indigenous
perspective. The Abrahamic faiths (Christianity, Judaism, and Islam) are all
open to converts and sometimes even force people into conversion. Allowing
others to follow their belief system is normal for their faith and is often
encouraged. When a person is raised around faiths like this, it is difficult to
understand how other spiritual traditions might not be as welcoming to converts
or sharing their sacred traditions.
> > > > However, many indigenous people see their traditions as part of their
cultural and racial identity. There is no concept of conversion and they would
really be shocked and curious if someone approached them with the idea.
Furthermore, it can be a sore-spot for those who had their lands appropriated
and other atrocities done to their people. In their view, enough has already
been "taken" from them. "Borrowing ceremonies" often falls into this catagory
from their point of view.
> > > > It is difficult to clearly understand others that are raised with a
different world view. So although you might not be offended if people tried out
runes, you are coming from a different perspective than many native people. Just
food for thought.
> > > >
> > > > --- In ShamanicWays@yahoogroups.com, andrew docker <see2dream@> wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > > Hi Aaron,
> > > > >
> > > > > In a sense that is what I am trying to get at, and obviously I feel
that your direct experiences in that area are different from mine-and
undoubtedly more knowledgeable. The 'despacho' thing is not the real thing
either-but does it matter?.
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > Some years ago I was involved in organising lectures on various
metaphysical subjects in Manchester, We had Warren Kenton speak twice, and our
private conversations were very memorable. There were many elders and rabbis of
that faith present, and what an amazing interplay of ideas and theories-I will
never forget it. My son, who was very young then still talks about it.
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > 'but rather take the stand that it doesn't matter because it's simply
not the same thing!' Thats exactly what I mean Aaron! Instead of fooling around
blaming those terrible white usurpers of indigenous knowledge, why can't we
celebrate the spreading of knowledge throughout the world-knowledge that frees
humanity from bondage, and lets the soul fly free.
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > Are we on a spiritual quest, or wrapping ourselves up in base mundane
bickering? Why don't we take all the good and work on that. When I talk to
spirit, it never refuses to let me in,or ask me what language I speak, it is
universal. Should I ignore the teaching contacts that have been with me for many
years because they are not of my present geographical location? Have I always
manifested on earth in this location? No... I think that we have to look way
beyond the petty minor tensions and see the universal picture-we are all One!
> > > > >
> > > > > How can we carry our work forward if we shackle ourselves with chains
of ignorance?
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > Andrew
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > ________________________________
> > > > > From: Aaron <aaronreid19103@>
> > > > > To: ShamanicWays@yahoogroups.com
> > > > > Sent: Sunday, 18 December 2011, 22:53
> > > > > Subject: Re: [Shamanic Ways] Fwd: FREE Despacho Kit: Buy 4 Kits Get 1
Free Offer Extended Through December 31
> > > > >
> > > > > Andrew,
> > > > >
> > > > > I'm in almost complete agreement, especially with your last paragraph.
> > > > > I do have to say that there is one thing with which we have a
different experience; you wrote:
> > > > > > "It is similar to the adption of the Quabalah as a system of
knowledge by the west. However, those who celebrate it in its original form that
I know are pleased that it has been adopted as a system of self-development, and
claim no ownership as they see all higher knowledge as being the divine right of
humanity in general."
> > > > > >
> > > > > I grew up in a traditionally Jewish environment and the "Quabalah"
being thrown around is definitely NOT respected among traditional Hebrew
scholars. While I will agree that they are more tolerant than some and don't
outwardly or publicly object to these practices, it is because they believe the
"Quabalah" that was made popular in the past couple decades is just a watered
down, untrue version of Kabbalah. Even my father, who is a Hebrew scholar will
not study Kabbalah as he doesn't even feel he is someone who should delve into
such teachings. So, the main difference is that they don't hem and haw about
their tradition being stolen, but rather take the stand that it doesn't matter
because it's simply not the same thing.
> > > > >
> > > > > Blessings,
> > > > > Aaron
> > > > >
> > > > > On Dec 18, 2011, at 2:55 PM, andrew docker wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > > > And therefore not to be taken so seriously then I would have
> > > > > > thought! It is similar to the adption of the Quabalah as a system of
> > > > > > knowledge by the west. However, those who celebrate it in its
original
> > > > > > form that I know are pleased that it has been adopted as a system of
> > > > > > self-development, and claim no ownership as they see all higher
> > > > > > knowledge as being the divine right of humanity in general. I really
> > > > > > don't see why the strong feelings here. If I collect items available
to
> > > > > > me locally for my workings (as I do) then that is essentially the
same
> > > > > > thing as she sells-and it is a common world-wide practice. If I saw
a
> > > > > > post on here from a person of that belief that criticised her
actions
> > > > > > then fair enough-but I don't think I have yet.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > If I minded people making runesets and calling them runes even
though they are not of my culture or beliefs, then I would be kept very busy
> > > > > > complaining. I have spoken to wise people of other cultures to
myself
> > > > > > who feel strongly that their knowledge can be the key to humanities
> > > > > > evolution and understanding (that is why they teach), and I have not
> > > > > > heard these concerns mentioned.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > I think I would rather look outwards at the common similarities
amongst
> > > > > > those who work for good than pick over words. The world in a sense
is
> > > > > > shrinking and to me anything (like this even) that provokes thought
in
> > > > > > people and causes them to explore for themselves has to be good.
Ok-she
> > > > > > may make a little money-but if it leads to a few people opening
their
> > > > > > perceptions then for one I don't really care!
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Andrew
> > > > > >
> > > > > > ________________________________
> > > > > > From: Branwyn ni
> > > > > >
> > > > > > ________________________________
> > > > > > From: Branwyn ni Druaidh <welshwmn3@>
> > > > > > To: ShamanicWays@yahoogroups.com
> > > > > > Sent: Sunday, 18 December 2011, 17:29
> > > > > > Subject: Re: [Shamanic Ways] Fwd: FREE Despacho Kit: Buy 4 Kits Get
1 Free Offer Extended Through December 31
> > > > > >
> > > > > > "There is no religion associated with prayer bundles, they're
compatible
> > > > > > with all beliefs."
> > > > > >
> > > > > > That is patently untrue. The despachos are part of
> > > > > > the indigenous Incan/Inkan religious practices. The religion is very
> > > > > > strong in in the worship/reverence of the Directions, the Mountains,
Nature
> > > > > > et al. To say that the despachos have no religious association is to
say
> > > > > > that the Pipe Ceremony has no religious association, that the
Blessing Way
> > > > > > has no religious association, that the Roman Catholic "Last Rights"
have no
> > > > > > religious association.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > This appears to be another example of a white person taking what
they want
> > > > > > of the teachings of the indigenous people, dropping what they don't
want,
> > > > > > and selling and profiting from things they don't truly understand.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > *sighs*
> > > > > > Bronwen
> > > > > >
> > > > > > On Sun, Dec 18, 2011 at 2:02 AM, andrew docker <see2dream@>wrote:
> > > > > >
> > > > > > > **
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > 'To bring about change in accordance with the will'. That is the
accepted
> > > > > > > definition of magical practice.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > I don't see anything strange about this. Isn't it similar to
people
> > > > > > > charging money for courses etc? I feel that if it opens peoples
eyes to the
> > > > > > > potential of changing their lives for the better then how can it
be strange
> > > > > > > or different from buying a book?
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Andy
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > ________________________________
> > > > > > > From: Nick Noble Wolf <true_dog@>
> > > > > > > To: Shamanic Ways <ShamanicWays@yahoogroups.com>
> > > > > > > Sent: Friday, 16 December 2011, 13:46
> > > > > > > Subject: [Shamanic Ways] Fwd: FREE Despacho Kit: Buy 4 Kits Get 1
Free
> > > > > > > Offer Extended Through December 31
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > I just received the following spam. I was pretty weirded out. Then
I
> > > > > > > went to her site (www.prayerbundles.com
<http://www.prayerbundles.com>).
> > > > > > > Now I am speechless.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > What do you think?
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Blessings,
> > > > > > > ~Nick
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > -------- Original Message --------
> > > > > > > Subject: FREE Despacho Kit: Buy 4 Kits Get 1 Free Offer Extended
> > > > > > > Through December 31
> > > > > > > Date: Wed, 14 Dec 2011 17:12:11 -0800
> > > > > > > From: Kerri Colegrove <prayerbundles@>
> > > > > > > To: undisclosed-recipients:;
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Seasons Greetings,
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > FREE Despacho Kits are very popular this holiday season with the
*Buy 4
> > > > > > > Kits Get 1 Free* Holiday Sale -- so we've extended this sale to
Dec 31.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > In addition to personal use, offering despacho ceremonies to your
> > > > > > > community is a great way to build your practice. Here's what an
> > > > > > > Australian shamanic practitioner wrote...
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > "I have just started offering Despacho Ceremonies within my
> > > > > > > business - and I have to say, my clients LOVE them. How
> > > > > > > blessed we are for this training AND how blessed I am to
> > > > > > > know you and your books! xoxoxo"
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > *To take advantage of the Buy 4 Kits Get 1 Free sale call (310)
237-2421
> > > > > > > <tel:%28310%29%20237-2421> or email: prayerbundles@
> > > > > > > <mailto:prayerbundles@>.* Let us know what kits you'd like and
> > > > > > > we'll send you an invoice and the kits will follow.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > We have over a dozen despacho kits now in stock, each with very
unique
> > > > > > > and specific action, including:
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > *Ayni Abundance Kit* -- Put your entire New Year's wish list into
this
> > > > > > > one, then make one monthly to keep big blessings flowing
> > > > > > > to you all year.
> > > > > > > *Aya Death Kit -- *To celebrate traditional passing or _for those
> > > > > > > wanting a "new life"_, these kits make an extra beautiful
despacho.
> > > > > > > *Cuti (Protection) Kit* -- _Gets rid of toxic energy_ others have
sent
> > > > > > > to you (usually unwittingly) via anger, resentment, envy, etc.,
> > > > > > > a must for everyone at least once.
> > > > > > > *Wiska (Freedom) Kit* -- _Unsticks energy vampires and such_, a
must for
> > > > > > > everyone at least once. Fun to make.
> > > > > > > *House Cleanse Kit* - Combine this one and the two above, wiska
and
> > > > > > > cuti, for a *Giant Triple Cleanse* to start the New Year off
> > > > > > > squeaky clean energetically. _Great
> > > > > > > help for selling a house_.
> > > > > > > *Feminine Healing Kit* - Transforms emotional trauma into
strength,
> > > > > > > _helps men get in better touch with their feelings_.
> > > > > > > *Masculine Healing Kit* - Gals, empowers you by empowering your
inner
> > > > > > > masculine. Guys, great for your career.
> > > > > > > *Wedding Celebration Kit* -- Brings extra blessings to newlyweds.
> > > > > > > *Birth Celebration Kit* -- Brings extra blessings to newborn
babes.
> > > > > > > *New Path Kit *-- To support a big direction change in life.
> > > > > > > *Money Kit* -- Special action to attract more money.
> > > > > > > *Mastery of Time Kit* -- People who make this one have discovered
extra
> > > > > > > time, gets you in right relationship with time so you
> > > > > > > have _plenty of time for everything_!
> > > > > > > *Bee Kit* -- Honors the energetic archetype of the bee to help you
> > > > > > > foster more community and productivity -- great for business.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > The Ayni Kit is $35. All other kits are $37 each. Shipping for 5
kits is
> > > > > > > $20.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > To*Buy 4 Kits Get 1 Free, call (310) 237-2421
<tel:%28310%29%20237-2421>
> > > > > > > or email: prayerbundles@ <mailto:prayerbundles@>.*
> > > > > > > Give us a list of the kits you want so we can send you an invoice
and
> > > > > > > then the kits. We will confirm your order within 24 hours. If you
have
> > > > > > > any questions please call.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Thank you to all our customers and friends for making 2011 such a
great
> > > > > > > year for us. We look forward to helping make 2012 a great year for
you.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > --
> > > > > > > Kerri Colegrove
> > > > > > > Prayer Bundles
> > > > > > > (310) 237-2421 <tel:%28310%29%20237-2421>
> > > > > > > www.prayerbundles.com <http://www.prayerbundles.com>
> > > > > > > Ignite Your Life!
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > To receive no more emails from Prayer Bundles, reply to this email
with
> > > > > > > the message "unsubscribe." Thank you.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > --
> > > > > > Per pale argent and purpure, two phoenixes counterchanged sable and
argent
> > > > > > each rising from flames proper.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > "It is sometimes the most fragile things that have the power to
endure and
> > > > > > become sources of strength."
> > > > > > - May Sarton
> > > > > >
> > > > > > "Only a life lived in the service to others is worth living."-
Albert
> > > > > > Einstein
> > > > > >
> > > > > > "Out of clutter, find Simplicity. From discord, find Harmony. In the
middle
> > > > > > of difficulty lies opportunity." - Albert Einstein
> > > > > >
> > > > > > "And the day came when the risk to remain tight in a bud was more
painful
> > > > > > than the risk it took to blossom." - Anais Nin
> > > > > >
> > > > > > "Go confidently in the direction of your dreams. Live the life you
have
> > > > > > imagined." - Henry David Thoreau
> > > > > >
> > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> > > > > >
> > > > > > ------------------------------------
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Note that all attachments are removed to minimize the possible
spread of viruses.Yahoo! Groups Links
> > > > > >
> > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > ------------------------------------
> > > > >
> > > > > Note that all attachments are removed to minimize the possible spread
of viruses.Yahoo! Groups Links
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> > > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> > >
> >
> >
>
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>

Andrew:

--- In ShamanicWays@yahoogroups.com, andrew docker <see2dream@...> wrote:
>
> Ok...you got me Steve! Seriously though that comment of mine was tongue in
cheek. I don't think I am insensitive, neither do I react dogmatically.
>

***Most insensitive people are unaware of their insensitivity or they would not
act that way.


> I am aware of the recent past and its atrocities, and the most powerful
feelings are obviously generated through actual memory.

***I disagree here. I am sure you have heard of some atrocities but certainly
not all. You have no idea what happened in Siberia. Also- they are not all "in
the past" but ongoing. If you *are* aware of the atrocities- then more shame on
you for blowing them off so easily.


However, although I have the utmost sympathy with the victims, I refuse to get
myself into an unbalanced spin through allowing emotion to cloud my perspective.

***Nice way to disconnect yourself from any responsibility for your position.


This series of posts seems to be more concerned with anger over the past, and
the past has gone. My concern is the future, and what we can build within it.

***The past, present, and future are all one. You can not separate them. Again,
this is your tact to wash your hands of anything you don't want to face. How
will you build a future on disrespect?


The persecution will go on, and even in my 'civilised' country, people are still
locked up or drugged for displaying what would be recognised as 'shamanic'
tendencies in truer cultures. The church still works to marginalise
non-believers, and the state backs them.
It is still going on Steve, and unfortunately there is no accepted ancient
cultural tradiiton here recognised enough to speak loudly against it.
>

***Plenty of people from "ancient cultural tradition" have spoken up only to be
silenced by people like you who like to say "We are going to take your spiritual
traditions whether you like it or not- but be happy about it because we are all
working for a happy future together". I tell you this- until there is *respect*
given to indigenous cultures (which means to at least listen to them about their
concerns) there will be no holding hands together in the future.

By the way- I have been a strong supporter of those trying to reclaim their
ancestoral traditions- just ask the Heathen community. There is a great amount
of support and respect between the some of the Heathen and Siberian shaman
communities.
Steve


> Andy
>
>
>
> ________________________________
>  From: Aaron <aaronreid19103@...>
> To: ShamanicWays@yahoogroups.com
> Sent: Monday, 19 December 2011, 16:47
> Subject: Re: [Shamanic Ways] Fwd: FREE Despacho Kit: Buy 4 Kits Get 1 Free
Offer Extended Through December 31
>
> Steve … please re-read the posts to clarify who said what.  I said none of
those things in your second paragraph; I think you are lumping me and Andy
together.
> The only thing I agreed with Andy about is that Spiritual development of any
kind is good; I do NOT condone any of the things you discuss, but simply find it
unhealthy to hold on to anger over what others are doing, no matter how "wrong".
> I don't expect it to be seen as a compliment and certainly don't expect it to
be accepted as the same.
> Aaron
> On Dec 19, 2011, at 10:59 AM, yzermongol wrote:
>
> > Aaron,
> >
> > While I agree that Christianity and Islam do convert far more than Judaism,
my point was that the concept of conversion is not completely foreign. In any
case, instead of just focussing on that- how about responding to the meat of my
post? I was trying to explain why indegenous people *do* have a problem with the
misappropriation of their culture and ceremonies. They do not see it as a
"compliment". The only reason that white people wish they would see it as a
compliment is so that they don't have to feel guilty by profaning their
religion.
> > To be honest, I am really shocked at some of your insensitive comments on
the subject. Things you said like indegenous people were "blaming the terrible
white usurpers" make you seem to others as if you are making light of the
atrocities that have occured. In Siberia, even in recent times shamans have been
killed for practicing their beliefs. They were taken up in helicopters and
thrown out to their deaths. This is too recent to have "gotten over" by now.
Your sense of entitlement is epic.
> > Steve
> >
> > --- In ShamanicWays@yahoogroups.com, Aaron <aaronreid19103@> wrote:
> > >
> > > Hi Steve. I completely understand your point of view, so I'd like to
express my sincere distaste for lumping Judaism, with Islam and Christianity …
either by saying the Abrahamic faiths or using the term Judeo-Christian. While I
no longer consider myself a part of the Jewish religion, it was my root
spiritual base before expanding my consciousness out of the realm of religion
and my change of view when reaching the age of 15 regarding the bible.
> > >
> > > The one specific difference that applies to your post is that
traditionally, conversion to Judaism is frowned upon; they definitely do not
seek converts or attempt to convert others, and those who seek out becoming
Jewish and asking for conversion must go through rigorous education and
examination before it will even be accepted (and then only by some groups of
Jews). Since Judaism itself has been watered down to several sects as well,
there may be easier methods of conversion among some "reform" congregations, but
these are not accepted by Traditionalists. The only reason most Rabbaim "Jewish
Clergy" would even consider conversion is when a Jewish man insists on marrying
a non-Jewish female; since Judaism is decided by the Mother, it would be done
for the reason of having the children accepted as Jewish. There are still many
Jewish traditionalists that would not even consider allowing conversion or
consider a "convert" actually Jewish.
> > >
> > > Just some insight as many other faiths do not have any clue about
Traditional Judaism.
> > > I do not take any offense, so please do not take any of this post as such.
I simply wanted to state a point.
> > > Thanks,
> > > Aaron
> > >
> > > On Dec 18, 2011, at 8:21 PM, yzermongol wrote:
> > >
> > > > Hello Andrew,
> > > >
> > > > I wanted to respond to your post- just to try to give you an indigenous
perspective. The Abrahamic faiths (Christianity, Judaism, and Islam) are all
open to converts and sometimes even force people into conversion. Allowing
others to follow their belief system is normal for their faith and is often
encouraged. When a person is raised around faiths like this, it is difficult to
understand how other spiritual traditions might not be as welcoming to converts
or sharing their sacred traditions.
> > > > However, many indigenous people see their traditions as part of their
cultural and racial identity. There is no concept of conversion and they would
really be shocked and curious if someone approached them with the idea.
Furthermore, it can be a sore-spot for those who had their lands appropriated
and other atrocities done to their people. In their view, enough has already
been "taken" from them. "Borrowing ceremonies" often falls into this catagory
from their point of view.
> > > > It is difficult to clearly understand others that are raised with a
different world view. So although you might not be offended if people tried out
runes, you are coming from a different perspective than many native people. Just
food for thought.
> > > >
> > > > --- In ShamanicWays@yahoogroups.com, andrew docker <see2dream@> wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > > Hi Aaron,
> > > > >
> > > > > In a sense that is what I am trying to get at, and obviously I feel
that your direct experiences in that area are different from mine-and
undoubtedly more knowledgeable. The 'despacho' thing is not the real thing
either-but does it matter?.
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > Some years ago I was involved in organising lectures on various
metaphysical subjects in Manchester, We had Warren Kenton speak twice, and our
private conversations were very memorable. There were many elders and rabbis of
that faith present, and what an amazing interplay of ideas and theories-I will
never forget it. My son, who was very young then still talks about it.
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > 'but rather take the stand that it doesn't matter because it's simply
not the same thing!' Thats exactly what I mean Aaron! Instead of fooling around
blaming those terrible white usurpers of indigenous knowledge, why can't we
celebrate the spreading of knowledge throughout the world-knowledge that frees
humanity from bondage, and lets the soul fly free.
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > Are we on a spiritual quest, or wrapping ourselves up in base mundane
bickering? Why don't we take all the good and work on that. When I talk to
spirit, it never refuses to let me in,or ask me what language I speak, it is
universal. Should I ignore the teaching contacts that have been with me for many
years because they are not of my present geographical location? Have I always
manifested on earth in this location? No... I think that we have to look way
beyond the petty minor tensions and see the universal picture-we are all One!
> > > > >
> > > > > How can we carry our work forward if we shackle ourselves with chains
of ignorance?
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > Andrew
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > ________________________________
> > > > > From: Aaron <aaronreid19103@>
> > > > > To: ShamanicWays@yahoogroups.com
> > > > > Sent: Sunday, 18 December 2011, 22:53
> > > > > Subject: Re: [Shamanic Ways] Fwd: FREE Despacho Kit: Buy 4 Kits Get 1
Free Offer Extended Through December 31
> > > > >
> > > > > Andrew,
> > > > >
> > > > > I'm in almost complete agreement, especially with your last paragraph.
> > > > > I do have to say that there is one thing with which we have a
different experience; you wrote:
> > > > > > "It is similar to the adption of the Quabalah as a system of
knowledge by the west. However, those who celebrate it in its original form that
I know are pleased that it has been adopted as a system of self-development, and
claim no ownership as they see all higher knowledge as being the divine right of
humanity in general."
> > > > > >
> > > > > I grew up in a traditionally Jewish environment and the "Quabalah"
being thrown around is definitely NOT respected among traditional Hebrew
scholars. While I will agree that they are more tolerant than some and don't
outwardly or publicly object to these practices, it is because they believe the
"Quabalah" that was made popular in the past couple decades is just a watered
down, untrue version of Kabbalah. Even my father, who is a Hebrew scholar will
not study Kabbalah as he doesn't even feel he is someone who should delve into
such teachings. So, the main difference is that they don't hem and haw about
their tradition being stolen, but rather take the stand that it doesn't matter
because it's simply not the same thing.
> > > > >
> > > > > Blessings,
> > > > > Aaron
> > > > >
> > > > > On Dec 18, 2011, at 2:55 PM, andrew docker wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > > > And therefore not to be taken so seriously then I would have
> > > > > > thought! It is similar to the adption of the Quabalah as a system of
> > > > > > knowledge by the west. However, those who celebrate it in its
original
> > > > > > form that I know are pleased that it has been adopted as a system of
> > > > > > self-development, and claim no ownership as they see all higher
> > > > > > knowledge as being the divine right of humanity in general. I really
> > > > > > don't see why the strong feelings here. If I collect items available
to
> > > > > > me locally for my workings (as I do) then that is essentially the
same
> > > > > > thing as she sells-and it is a common world-wide practice. If I saw
a
> > > > > > post on here from a person of that belief that criticised her
actions
> > > > > > then fair enough-but I don't think I have yet.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > If I minded people making runesets and calling them runes even
though they are not of my culture or beliefs, then I would be kept very busy
> > > > > > complaining. I have spoken to wise people of other cultures to
myself
> > > > > > who feel strongly that their knowledge can be the key to humanities
> > > > > > evolution and understanding (that is why they teach), and I have not
> > > > > > heard these concerns mentioned.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > I think I would rather look outwards at the common similarities
amongst
> > > > > > those who work for good than pick over words. The world in a sense
is
> > > > > > shrinking and to me anything (like this even) that provokes thought
in
> > > > > > people and causes them to explore for themselves has to be good.
Ok-she
> > > > > > may make a little money-but if it leads to a few people opening
their
> > > > > > perceptions then for one I don't really care!
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Andrew
> > > > > >
> > > > > > ________________________________
> > > > > > From: Branwyn ni
> > > > > >
> > > > > > ________________________________
> > > > > > From: Branwyn ni Druaidh <welshwmn3@>
> > > > > > To: ShamanicWays@yahoogroups.com
> > > > > > Sent: Sunday, 18 December 2011, 17:29
> > > > > > Subject: Re: [Shamanic Ways] Fwd: FREE Despacho Kit: Buy 4 Kits Get
1 Free Offer Extended Through December 31
> > > > > >
> > > > > > "There is no religion associated with prayer bundles, they're
compatible
> > > > > > with all beliefs."
> > > > > >
> > > > > > That is patently untrue. The despachos are part of
> > > > > > the indigenous Incan/Inkan religious practices. The religion is very
> > > > > > strong in in the worship/reverence of the Directions, the Mountains,
Nature
> > > > > > et al. To say that the despachos have no religious association is to
say
> > > > > > that the Pipe Ceremony has no religious association, that the
Blessing Way
> > > > > > has no religious association, that the Roman Catholic "Last Rights"
have no
> > > > > > religious association.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > This appears to be another example of a white person taking what
they want
> > > > > > of the teachings of the indigenous people, dropping what they don't
want,
> > > > > > and selling and profiting from things they don't truly understand.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > *sighs*
> > > > > > Bronwen
> > > > > >
> > > > > > On Sun, Dec 18, 2011 at 2:02 AM, andrew docker <see2dream@>wrote:
> > > > > >
> > > > > > > **
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > 'To bring about change in accordance with the will'. That is the
accepted
> > > > > > > definition of magical practice.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > I don't see anything strange about this. Isn't it similar to
people
> > > > > > > charging money for courses etc? I feel that if it opens peoples
eyes to the
> > > > > > > potential of changing their lives for the better then how can it
be strange
> > > > > > > or different from buying a book?
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Andy
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > ________________________________
> > > > > > > From: Nick Noble Wolf <true_dog@>
> > > > > > > To: Shamanic Ways <ShamanicWays@yahoogroups.com>
> > > > > > > Sent: Friday, 16 December 2011, 13:46
> > > > > > > Subject: [Shamanic Ways] Fwd: FREE Despacho Kit: Buy 4 Kits Get 1
Free
> > > > > > > Offer Extended Through December 31
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > I just received the following spam. I was pretty weirded out. Then
I
> > > > > > > went to her site (www.prayerbundles.com
<http://www.prayerbundles.com>).
> > > > > > > Now I am speechless.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > What do you think?
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Blessings,
> > > > > > > ~Nick
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > -------- Original Message --------
> > > > > > > Subject: FREE Despacho Kit: Buy 4 Kits Get 1 Free Offer Extended
> > > > > > > Through December 31
> > > > > > > Date: Wed, 14 Dec 2011 17:12:11 -0800
> > > > > > > From: Kerri Colegrove <prayerbundles@>
> > > > > > > To: undisclosed-recipients:;
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Seasons Greetings,
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > FREE Despacho Kits are very popular this holiday season with the
*Buy 4
> > > > > > > Kits Get 1 Free* Holiday Sale -- so we've extended this sale to
Dec 31.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > In addition to personal use, offering despacho ceremonies to your
> > > > > > > community is a great way to build your practice. Here's what an
> > > > > > > Australian shamanic practitioner wrote...
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > "I have just started offering Despacho Ceremonies within my
> > > > > > > business - and I have to say, my clients LOVE them. How
> > > > > > > blessed we are for this training AND how blessed I am to
> > > > > > > know you and your books! xoxoxo"
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > *To take advantage of the Buy 4 Kits Get 1 Free sale call (310)
237-2421
> > > > > > > <tel:%28310%29%20237-2421> or email: prayerbundles@
> > > > > > > <mailto:prayerbundles@>.* Let us know what kits you'd like and
> > > > > > > we'll send you an invoice and the kits will follow.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > We have over a dozen despacho kits now in stock, each with very
unique
> > > > > > > and specific action, including:
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > *Ayni Abundance Kit* -- Put your entire New Year's wish list into
this
> > > > > > > one, then make one monthly to keep big blessings flowing
> > > > > > > to you all year.
> > > > > > > *Aya Death Kit -- *To celebrate traditional passing or _for those
> > > > > > > wanting a "new life"_, these kits make an extra beautiful
despacho.
> > > > > > > *Cuti (Protection) Kit* -- _Gets rid of toxic energy_ others have
sent
> > > > > > > to you (usually unwittingly) via anger, resentment, envy, etc.,
> > > > > > > a must for everyone at least once.
> > > > > > > *Wiska (Freedom) Kit* -- _Unsticks energy vampires and such_, a
must for
> > > > > > > everyone at least once. Fun to make.
> > > > > > > *House Cleanse Kit* - Combine this one and the two above, wiska
and
> > > > > > > cuti, for a *Giant Triple Cleanse* to start the New Year off
> > > > > > > squeaky clean energetically. _Great
> > > > > > > help for selling a house_.
> > > > > > > *Feminine Healing Kit* - Transforms emotional trauma into
strength,
> > > > > > > _helps men get in better touch with their feelings_.
> > > > > > > *Masculine Healing Kit* - Gals, empowers you by empowering your
inner
> > > > > > > masculine. Guys, great for your career.
> > > > > > > *Wedding Celebration Kit* -- Brings extra blessings to newlyweds.
> > > > > > > *Birth Celebration Kit* -- Brings extra blessings to newborn
babes.
> > > > > > > *New Path Kit *-- To support a big direction change in life.
> > > > > > > *Money Kit* -- Special action to attract more money.
> > > > > > > *Mastery of Time Kit* -- People who make this one have discovered
extra
> > > > > > > time, gets you in right relationship with time so you
> > > > > > > have _plenty of time for everything_!
> > > > > > > *Bee Kit* -- Honors the energetic archetype of the bee to help you
> > > > > > > foster more community and productivity -- great for business.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > The Ayni Kit is $35. All other kits are $37 each. Shipping for 5
kits is
> > > > > > > $20.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > To*Buy 4 Kits Get 1 Free, call (310) 237-2421
<tel:%28310%29%20237-2421>
> > > > > > > or email: prayerbundles@ <mailto:prayerbundles@>.*
> > > > > > > Give us a list of the kits you want so we can send you an invoice
and
> > > > > > > then the kits. We will confirm your order within 24 hours. If you
have
> > > > > > > any questions please call.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Thank you to all our customers and friends for making 2011 such a
great
> > > > > > > year for us. We look forward to helping make 2012 a great year for
you.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > --
> > > > > > > Kerri Colegrove
> > > > > > > Prayer Bundles
> > > > > > > (310) 237-2421 <tel:%28310%29%20237-2421>
> > > > > > > www.prayerbundles.com <http://www.prayerbundles.com>
> > > > > > > Ignite Your Life!
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > To receive no more emails from Prayer Bundles, reply to this email
with
> > > > > > > the message "unsubscribe." Thank you.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > --
> > > > > > Per pale argent and purpure, two phoenixes counterchanged sable and
argent
> > > > > > each rising from flames proper.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > "It is sometimes the most fragile things that have the power to
endure and
> > > > > > become sources of strength."
> > > > > > - May Sarton
> > > > > >
> > > > > > "Only a life lived in the service to others is worth living."-
Albert
> > > > > > Einstein
> > > > > >
> > > > > > "Out of clutter, find Simplicity. From discord, find Harmony. In the
middle
> > > > > > of difficulty lies opportunity." - Albert Einstein
> > > > > >
> > > > > > "And the day came when the risk to remain tight in a bud was more
painful
> > > > > > than the risk it took to blossom." - Anais Nin
> > > > > >
> > > > > > "Go confidently in the direction of your dreams. Live the life you
have
> > > > > > imagined." - Henry David Thoreau
> > > > > >
> > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> > > > > >
> > > > > > ------------------------------------
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Note that all attachments are removed to minimize the possible
spread of viruses.Yahoo! Groups Links
> > > > > >
> > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > ------------------------------------
> > > > >
> > > > > Note that all attachments are removed to minimize the possible spread
of viruses.Yahoo! Groups Links
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> > > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> > >
> >
> >
>
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
>
> ------------------------------------
>
> Note that all attachments are removed to minimize the possible spread of
viruses.Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>

Hi Steve,

I think it is always a mistake to react by being judgemental and with anger
Steve. You know little about me or my commitment to my beliefs, and your
judgementalism says a lot about you. It wasn't a very balanced response was it?
I'm not going to insult you by assuming I know what drives your anger, so I
think I will leave it there. I wonder if those who commited the atrocities were
as judgemental as you, and as sure as you seem to be regarding other peoples
qualities and motives?

Andy





________________________________
  From: yzermongol <yzermongol@...>
To: ShamanicWays@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Monday, 19 December 2011, 17:33
Subject: Re: [Shamanic Ways] Fwd: FREE Despacho Kit: Buy 4 Kits Get 1 Free Offer
Extended Through December 31


 
Andrew:

--- In ShamanicWays@yahoogroups.com, andrew docker <see2dream@...> wrote:
>
> Ok...you got me Steve! Seriously though that comment of mine was tongue in
cheek. I don't think I am insensitive, neither do I react dogmatically.
>

***Most insensitive people are unaware of their insensitivity or they would not
act that way.

> I am aware of the recent past and its atrocities, and the most powerful
feelings are obviously generated through actual memory.

***I disagree here. I am sure you have heard of some atrocities but certainly
not all. You have no idea what happened in Siberia. Also- they are not all "in
the past" but ongoing. If you *are* aware of the atrocities- then more shame on
you for blowing them off so easily.

However, although I have the utmost sympathy with the victims, I refuse to get
myself into an unbalanced spin through allowing emotion to cloud my perspective.

***Nice way to disconnect yourself from any responsibility for your position.

This series of posts seems to be more concerned with anger over the past, and
the past has gone. My concern is the future, and what we can build within it.

***The past, present, and future are all one. You can not separate them. Again,
this is your tact to wash your hands of anything you don't want to face. How
will you build a future on disrespect?

The persecution will go on, and even in my 'civilised' country, people are still
locked up or drugged for displaying what would be recognised as 'shamanic'
tendencies in truer cultures. The church still works to marginalise
non-believers, and the state backs them.
It is still going on Steve, and unfortunately there is no accepted ancient
cultural tradiiton here recognised enough to speak loudly against it.
>

***Plenty of people from "ancient cultural tradition" have spoken up only to be
silenced by people like you who like to say "We are going to take your spiritual
traditions whether you like it or not- but be happy about it because we are all
working for a happy future together". I tell you this- until there is *respect*
given to indigenous cultures (which means to at least listen to them about their
concerns) there will be no holding hands together in the future.

By the way- I have been a strong supporter of those trying to reclaim their
ancestoral traditions- just ask the Heathen community. There is a great amount
of support and respect between the some of the Heathen and Siberian shaman
communities.
Steve

> Andy
>
>
>
> ________________________________
>  From: Aaron <aaronreid19103@...>
> To: ShamanicWays@yahoogroups.com
> Sent: Monday, 19 December 2011, 16:47
> Subject: Re: [Shamanic Ways] Fwd: FREE Despacho Kit: Buy 4 Kits Get 1 Free
Offer Extended Through December 31
>
> Steve … please re-read the posts to clarify who said what.  I said
none of those things in your second paragraph; I think you are lumping me and
Andy together.
> The only thing I agreed with Andy about is that Spiritual development of any
kind is good; I do NOT condone any of the things you discuss, but simply find it
unhealthy to hold on to anger over what others are doing, no matter how "wrong".
> I don't expect it to be seen as a compliment and certainly don't expect it to
be accepted as the same.
> Aaron
> On Dec 19, 2011, at 10:59 AM, yzermongol wrote:
>
> > Aaron,
> >
> > While I agree that Christianity and Islam do convert far more than Judaism,
my point was that the concept of conversion is not completely foreign. In any
case, instead of just focussing on that- how about responding to the meat of my
post? I was trying to explain why indegenous people *do* have a problem with the
misappropriation of their culture and ceremonies. They do not see it as a
"compliment". The only reason that white people wish they would see it as a
compliment is so that they don't have to feel guilty by profaning their
religion.
> > To be honest, I am really shocked at some of your insensitive comments on
the subject. Things you said like indegenous people were "blaming the terrible
white usurpers" make you seem to others as if you are making light of the
atrocities that have occured. In Siberia, even in recent times shamans have been
killed for practicing their beliefs. They were taken up in helicopters and
thrown out to their deaths. This is too recent to have "gotten over" by now.
Your sense of entitlement is epic.
> > Steve
> >
> > --- In ShamanicWays@yahoogroups.com, Aaron <aaronreid19103@> wrote:
> > >
> > > Hi Steve. I completely understand your point of view, so I'd like to
express my sincere distaste for lumping Judaism, with Islam and Christianity
… either by saying the Abrahamic faiths or using the term Judeo-Christian.
While I no longer consider myself a part of the Jewish religion, it was my root
spiritual base before expanding my consciousness out of the realm of religion
and my change of view when reaching the age of 15 regarding the bible.
> > >
> > > The one specific difference that applies to your post is that
traditionally, conversion to Judaism is frowned upon; they definitely do not
seek converts or attempt to convert others, and those who seek out becoming
Jewish and asking for conversion must go through rigorous education and
examination before it will even be accepted (and then only by some groups of
Jews). Since Judaism itself has been watered down to several sects as well,
there may be easier methods of conversion among some "reform" congregations, but
these are not accepted by Traditionalists. The only reason most Rabbaim "Jewish
Clergy" would even consider conversion is when a Jewish man insists on marrying
a non-Jewish female; since Judaism is decided by the Mother, it would be done
for the reason of having the children accepted as Jewish. There are still many
Jewish traditionalists that would not even consider allowing conversion or
consider a "convert" actually Jewish.
> > >
> > > Just some insight as many other faiths do not have any clue about
Traditional Judaism.
> > > I do not take any offense, so please do not take any of this post as such.
I simply wanted to state a point.
> > > Thanks,
> > > Aaron
> > >
> > > On Dec 18, 2011, at 8:21 PM, yzermongol wrote:
> > >
> > > > Hello Andrew,
> > > >
> > > > I wanted to respond to your post- just to try to give you an indigenous
perspective. The Abrahamic faiths (Christianity, Judaism, and Islam) are all
open to converts and sometimes even force people into conversion. Allowing
others to follow their belief system is normal for their faith and is often
encouraged. When a person is raised around faiths like this, it is difficult to
understand how other spiritual traditions might not be as welcoming to converts
or sharing their sacred traditions.
> > > > However, many indigenous people see their traditions as part of their
cultural and racial identity. There is no concept of conversion and they would
really be shocked and curious if someone approached them with the idea.
Furthermore, it can be a sore-spot for those who had their lands appropriated
and other atrocities done to their people. In their view, enough has already
been "taken" from them. "Borrowing ceremonies" often falls into this catagory
from their point of view.
> > > > It is difficult to clearly understand others that are raised with a
different world view. So although you might not be offended if people tried out
runes, you are coming from a different perspective than many native people. Just
food for thought.
> > > >
> > > > --- In ShamanicWays@yahoogroups.com, andrew docker <see2dream@> wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > > Hi Aaron,
> > > > >
> > > > > In a sense that is what I am trying to get at, and obviously I feel
that your direct experiences in that area are different from mine-and
undoubtedly more knowledgeable. The 'despacho' thing is not the real thing
either-but does it matter?.
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > Some years ago I was involved in organising lectures on various
metaphysical subjects in Manchester, We had Warren Kenton speak twice, and our
private conversations were very memorable. There were many elders and rabbis of
that faith present, and what an amazing interplay of ideas and theories-I will
never forget it. My son, who was very young then still talks about it.
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > 'but rather take the stand that it doesn't matter because it's simply
not the same thing!' Thats exactly what I mean Aaron! Instead of fooling around
blaming those terrible white usurpers of indigenous knowledge, why can't we
celebrate the spreading of knowledge throughout the world-knowledge that frees
humanity from bondage, and lets the soul fly free.
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > Are we on a spiritual quest, or wrapping ourselves up in base mundane
bickering? Why don't we take all the good and work on that. When I talk to
spirit, it never refuses to let me in,or ask me what language I speak, it is
universal. Should I ignore the teaching contacts that have been with me for many
years because they are not of my present geographical location? Have I always
manifested on earth in this location? No... I think that we have to look way
beyond the petty minor tensions and see the universal picture-we are all One!
> > > > >
> > > > > How can we carry our work forward if we shackle ourselves with chains
of ignorance?
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > Andrew
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > ________________________________
> > > > > From: Aaron <aaronreid19103@>
> > > > > To: ShamanicWays@yahoogroups.com
> > > > > Sent: Sunday, 18 December 2011, 22:53
> > > > > Subject: Re: [Shamanic Ways] Fwd: FREE Despacho Kit: Buy 4 Kits Get 1
Free Offer Extended Through December 31
> > > > >
> > > > > Andrew,
> > > > >
> > > > > I'm in almost complete agreement, especially with your last paragraph.
> > > > > I do have to say that there is one thing with which we have a
different experience; you wrote:
> > > > > > "It is similar to the adption of the Quabalah as a system of
knowledge by the west. However, those who celebrate it in its original form that
I know are pleased that it has been adopted as a system of self-development, and
claim no ownership as they see all higher knowledge as being the divine right of
humanity in general."
> > > > > >
> > > > > I grew up in a traditionally Jewish environment and the "Quabalah"
being thrown around is definitely NOT respected among traditional Hebrew
scholars. While I will agree that they are more tolerant than some and don't
outwardly or publicly object to these practices, it is because they believe the
"Quabalah" that was made popular in the past couple decades is just a watered
down, untrue version of Kabbalah. Even my father, who is a Hebrew scholar will
not study Kabbalah as he doesn't even feel he is someone who should delve into
such teachings. So, the main difference is that they don't hem and haw about
their tradition being stolen, but rather take the stand that it doesn't matter
because it's simply not the same thing.
> > > > >
> > > > > Blessings,
> > > > > Aaron
> > > > >
> > > > > On Dec 18, 2011, at 2:55 PM, andrew docker wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > > > And therefore not to be taken so seriously then I would have
> > > > > > thought! It is similar to the adption of the Quabalah as a system of
> > > > > > knowledge by the west. However, those who celebrate it in its
original
> > > > > > form that I know are pleased that it has been adopted as a system of
> > > > > > self-development, and claim no ownership as they see all higher
> > > > > > knowledge as being the divine right of humanity in general. I really
> > > > > > don't see why the strong feelings here. If I collect items available
to
> > > > > > me locally for my workings (as I do) then that is essentially the
same
> > > > > > thing as she sells-and it is a common world-wide practice. If I saw
a
> > > > > > post on here from a person of that belief that criticised her
actions
> > > > > > then fair enough-but I don't think I have yet.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > If I minded people making runesets and calling them runes even
though they are not of my culture or beliefs, then I would be kept very busy
> > > > > > complaining. I have spoken to wise people of other cultures to
myself
> > > > > > who feel strongly that their knowledge can be the key to humanities
> > > > > > evolution and understanding (that is why they teach), and I have not
> > > > > > heard these concerns mentioned.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > I think I would rather look outwards at the common similarities
amongst
> > > > > > those who work for good than pick over words. The world in a sense
is
> > > > > > shrinking and to me anything (like this even) that provokes thought
in
> > > > > > people and causes them to explore for themselves has to be good.
Ok-she
> > > > > > may make a little money-but if it leads to a few people opening
their
> > > > > > perceptions then for one I don't really care!
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Andrew
> > > > > >
> > > > > > ________________________________
> > > > > > From: Branwyn ni
> > > > > >
> > > > > > ________________________________
> > > > > > From: Branwyn ni Druaidh <welshwmn3@>
> > > > > > To: ShamanicWays@yahoogroups.com
> > > > > > Sent: Sunday, 18 December 2011, 17:29
> > > > > > Subject: Re: [Shamanic Ways] Fwd: FREE Despacho Kit: Buy 4 Kits Get
1 Free Offer Extended Through December 31
> > > > > >
> > > > > > "There is no religion associated with prayer bundles, they're
compatible
> > > > > > with all beliefs."
> > > > > >
> > > > > > That is patently untrue. The despachos are part of
> > > > > > the indigenous Incan/Inkan religious practices. The religion is very
> > > > > > strong in in the worship/reverence of the Directions, the Mountains,
Nature
> > > > > > et al. To say that the despachos have no religious association is to
say
> > > > > > that the Pipe Ceremony has no religious association, that the
Blessing Way
> > > > > > has no religious association, that the Roman Catholic "Last Rights"
have no
> > > > > > religious association.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > This appears to be another example of a white person taking what
they want
> > > > > > of the teachings of the indigenous people, dropping what they don't
want,
> > > > > > and selling and profiting from things they don't truly understand.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > *sighs*
> > > > > > Bronwen
> > > > > >
> > > > > > On Sun, Dec 18, 2011 at 2:02 AM, andrew docker <see2dream@>wrote:
> > > > > >
> > > > > > > **
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > 'To bring about change in accordance with the will'. That is the
accepted
> > > > > > > definition of magical practice.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > I don't see anything strange about this. Isn't it similar to
people
> > > > > > > charging money for courses etc? I feel that if it opens peoples
eyes to the
> > > > > > > potential of changing their lives for the better then how can it
be strange
> > > > > > > or different from buying a book?
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Andy
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > ________________________________
> > > > > > > From: Nick Noble Wolf <true_dog@>
> > > > > > > To: Shamanic Ways <ShamanicWays@yahoogroups.com>
> > > > > > > Sent: Friday, 16 December 2011, 13:46
> > > > > > > Subject: [Shamanic Ways] Fwd: FREE Despacho Kit: Buy 4 Kits Get 1
Free
> > > > > > > Offer Extended Through December 31
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > I just received the following spam. I was pretty weirded out. Then
I
> > > > > > > went to her site (www.prayerbundles.com
<http://www.prayerbundles.com>).
> > > > > > > Now I am speechless.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > What do you think?
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Blessings,
> > > > > > > ~Nick
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > -------- Original Message --------
> > > > > > > Subject: FREE Despacho Kit: Buy 4 Kits Get 1 Free Offer Extended
> > > > > > > Through December 31
> > > > > > > Date: Wed, 14 Dec 2011 17:12:11 -0800
> > > > > > > From: Kerri Colegrove <prayerbundles@>
> > > > > > > To: undisclosed-recipients:;
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Seasons Greetings,
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > FREE Despacho Kits are very popular this holiday season with the
*Buy 4
> > > > > > > Kits Get 1 Free* Holiday Sale -- so we've extended this sale to
Dec 31.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > In addition to personal use, offering despacho ceremonies to your
> > > > > > > community is a great way to build your practice. Here's what an
> > > > > > > Australian shamanic practitioner wrote...
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > "I have just started offering Despacho Ceremonies within my
> > > > > > > business - and I have to say, my clients LOVE them. How
> > > > > > > blessed we are for this training AND how blessed I am to
> > > > > > > know you and your books! xoxoxo"
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > *To take advantage of the Buy 4 Kits Get 1 Free sale call (310)
237-2421
> > > > > > > <tel:%28310%29%20237-2421> or email: prayerbundles@
> > > > > > > <mailto:prayerbundles@>.* Let us know what kits you'd like and
> > > > > > > we'll send you an invoice and the kits will follow.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > We have over a dozen despacho kits now in stock, each with very
unique
> > > > > > > and specific action, including:
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > *Ayni Abundance Kit* -- Put your entire New Year's wish list into
this
> > > > > > > one, then make one monthly to keep big blessings flowing
> > > > > > > to you all year.
> > > > > > > *Aya Death Kit -- *To celebrate traditional passing or _for those
> > > > > > > wanting a "new life"_, these kits make an extra beautiful
despacho.
> > > > > > > *Cuti (Protection) Kit* -- _Gets rid of toxic energy_ others have
sent
> > > > > > > to you (usually unwittingly) via anger, resentment, envy, etc.,
> > > > > > > a must for everyone at least once.
> > > > > > > *Wiska (Freedom) Kit* -- _Unsticks energy vampires and such_, a
must for
> > > > > > > everyone at least once. Fun to make.
> > > > > > > *House Cleanse Kit* - Combine this one and the two above, wiska
and
> > > > > > > cuti, for a *Giant Triple Cleanse* to start the New Year off
> > > > > > > squeaky clean energetically. _Great
> > > > > > > help for selling a house_.
> > > > > > > *Feminine Healing Kit* - Transforms emotional trauma into
strength,
> > > > > > > _helps men get in better touch with their feelings_.
> > > > > > > *Masculine Healing Kit* - Gals, empowers you by empowering your
inner
> > > > > > > masculine. Guys, great for your career.
> > > > > > > *Wedding Celebration Kit* -- Brings extra blessings to newlyweds.
> > > > > > > *Birth Celebration Kit* -- Brings extra blessings to newborn
babes.
> > > > > > > *New Path Kit *-- To support a big direction change in life.
> > > > > > > *Money Kit* -- Special action to attract more money.
> > > > > > > *Mastery of Time Kit* -- People who make this one have discovered
extra
> > > > > > > time, gets you in right relationship with time so you
> > > > > > > have _plenty of time for everything_!
> > > > > > > *Bee Kit* -- Honors the energetic archetype of the bee to help you
> > > > > > > foster more community and productivity -- great for business.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > The Ayni Kit is $35. All other kits are $37 each. Shipping for 5
kits is
> > > > > > > $20.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > To*Buy 4 Kits Get 1 Free, call (310) 237-2421
<tel:%28310%29%20237-2421>
> > > > > > > or email: prayerbundles@ <mailto:prayerbundles@>.*
> > > > > > > Give us a list of the kits you want so we can send you an invoice
and
> > > > > > > then the kits. We will confirm your order within 24 hours. If you
have
> > > > > > > any questions please call.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Thank you to all our customers and friends for making 2011 such a
great
> > > > > > > year for us. We look forward to helping make 2012 a great year for
you.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > --
> > > > > > > Kerri Colegrove
> > > > > > > Prayer Bundles
> > > > > > > (310) 237-2421 <tel:%28310%29%20237-2421>
> > > > > > > www.prayerbundles.com <http://www.prayerbundles.com>
> > > > > > > Ignite Your Life!
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > To receive no more emails from Prayer Bundles, reply to this email
with
> > > > > > > the message "unsubscribe." Thank you.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > --
> > > > > > Per pale argent and purpure, two phoenixes counterchanged sable and
argent
> > > > > > each rising from flames proper.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > "It is sometimes the most fragile things that have the power to
endure and
> > > > > > become sources of strength."
> > > > > > - May Sarton
> > > > > >
> > > > > > "Only a life lived in the service to others is worth living."-
Albert
> > > > > > Einstein
> > > > > >
> > > > > > "Out of clutter, find Simplicity. From discord, find Harmony. In the
middle
> > > > > > of difficulty lies opportunity." - Albert Einstein
> > > > > >
> > > > > > "And the day came when the risk to remain tight in a bud was more
painful
> > > > > > than the risk it took to blossom." - Anais Nin
> > > > > >
> > > > > > "Go confidently in the direction of your dreams. Live the life you
have
> > > > > > imagined." - Henry David Thoreau
> > > > > >
> > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> > > > > >
> > > > > > ------------------------------------
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Note that all attachments are removed to minimize the possible
spread of viruses.Yahoo! Groups Links
> > > > > >
> > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > ------------------------------------
> > > > >
> > > > > Note that all attachments are removed to minimize the possible spread
of viruses.Yahoo! Groups Links
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> > > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> > >
> >
> >
>
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
>
> ------------------------------------
>
> Note that all attachments are removed to minimize the possible spread of
viruses.Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>




[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

http://derailingfordummies.com/

While "You are just being judgemental/You aren't responding in a balanced
manner" isn't in there, there is some very good information on what
"privilege" is, what derailing is, and how good people engage in it.

Bronwen

On Mon, Dec 19, 2011 at 11:07 AM, andrew docker <see2dream@...>wrote:

> **
>
>
> Hi Steve,
>
> I think it is always a mistake to react by being judgemental and with
> anger Steve. You know little about me or my commitment to my beliefs, and
> your judgementalism says a lot about you. It wasn't a very balanced
> response was it? I'm not going to insult you by assuming I know what drives
> your anger, so I think I will leave it there. I wonder if those who
> commited the atrocities were as judgemental as you, and as sure as you seem
> to be regarding other peoples qualities and motives?
>
> Andy
>
> ________________________________
> From: yzermongol <yzermongol@...>
> To: ShamanicWays@yahoogroups.com
> Sent: Monday, 19 December 2011, 17:33
>
> Subject: Re: [Shamanic Ways] Fwd: FREE Despacho Kit: Buy 4 Kits Get 1 Free
> Offer Extended Through December 31
>
>
>
> Andrew:
>
> --- In ShamanicWays@yahoogroups.com, andrew docker <see2dream@...> wrote:
> >
> > Ok...you got me Steve! Seriously though that comment of mine was tongue
> in cheek. I don't think I am insensitive, neither do I react dogmatically.
> >
>
> ***Most insensitive people are unaware of their insensitivity or they
> would not act that way.
>
> > I am aware of the recent past and its atrocities, and the most powerful
> feelings are obviously generated through actual memory.
>
> ***I disagree here. I am sure you have heard of some atrocities but
> certainly not all. You have no idea what happened in Siberia. Also- they
> are not all "in the past" but ongoing. If you *are* aware of the
> atrocities- then more shame on you for blowing them off so easily.
>
> However, although I have the utmost sympathy with the victims, I refuse to
> get myself into an unbalanced spin through allowing emotion to cloud my
> perspective.
>
> ***Nice way to disconnect yourself from any responsibility for your
> position.
>
> This series of posts seems to be more concerned with anger over the past,
> and the past has gone. My concern is the future, and what we can build
> within it.
>
> ***The past, present, and future are all one. You can not separate them.
> Again, this is your tact to wash your hands of anything you don't want to
> face. How will you build a future on disrespect?
>
> The persecution will go on, and even in my 'civilised' country, people are
> still locked up or drugged for displaying what would be recognised as
> 'shamanic' tendencies in truer cultures. The church still works to
> marginalise non-believers, and the state backs them.
> It is still going on Steve, and unfortunately there is no accepted ancient
> cultural tradiiton here recognised enough to speak loudly against it.
> >
>
> ***Plenty of people from "ancient cultural tradition" have spoken up only
> to be silenced by people like you who like to say "We are going to take
> your spiritual traditions whether you like it or not- but be happy about it
> because we are all working for a happy future together". I tell you this-
> until there is *respect* given to indigenous cultures (which means to at
> least listen to them about their concerns) there will be no holding hands
> together in the future.
>
> By the way- I have been a strong supporter of those trying to reclaim
> their ancestoral traditions- just ask the Heathen community. There is a
> great amount of support and respect between the some of the Heathen and
> Siberian shaman communities.
> Steve
>
> > Andy
> >
> >
> >
> > ________________________________
> > From: Aaron <aaronreid19103@...>
> > To: ShamanicWays@yahoogroups.com
> > Sent: Monday, 19 December 2011, 16:47
> > Subject: Re: [Shamanic Ways] Fwd: FREE Despacho Kit: Buy 4 Kits Get 1
> Free Offer Extended Through December 31
> >
> > Steve … please re-read the posts to clarify who said what.  I said
> none of those things in your second paragraph; I think you are lumping me
> and Andy together.
> > The only thing I agreed with Andy about is that Spiritual development of
> any kind is good; I do NOT condone any of the things you discuss, but
> simply find it unhealthy to hold on to anger over what others are doing, no
> matter how "wrong".
> > I don't expect it to be seen as a compliment and certainly don't expect
> it to be accepted as the same.
> > Aaron
> > On Dec 19, 2011, at 10:59 AM, yzermongol wrote:
> >
> > > Aaron,
> > >
> > > While I agree that Christianity and Islam do convert far more than
> Judaism, my point was that the concept of conversion is not completely
> foreign. In any case, instead of just focussing on that- how about
> responding to the meat of my post? I was trying to explain why indegenous
> people *do* have a problem with the misappropriation of their culture and
> ceremonies. They do not see it as a "compliment". The only reason that
> white people wish they would see it as a compliment is so that they don't
> have to feel guilty by profaning their religion.
> > > To be honest, I am really shocked at some of your insensitive comments
> on the subject. Things you said like indegenous people were "blaming the
> terrible white usurpers" make you seem to others as if you are making light
> of the atrocities that have occured. In Siberia, even in recent times
> shamans have been killed for practicing their beliefs. They were taken up
> in helicopters and thrown out to their deaths. This is too recent to have
> "gotten over" by now. Your sense of entitlement is epic.
> > > Steve
> > >
> > > --- In ShamanicWays@yahoogroups.com, Aaron <aaronreid19103@> wrote:
> > > >
> > > > Hi Steve. I completely understand your point of view, so I'd like to
> express my sincere distaste for lumping Judaism, with Islam and
> Christianity … either by saying the Abrahamic faiths or using the term
> Judeo-Christian. While I no longer consider myself a part of the Jewish
> religion, it was my root spiritual base before expanding my consciousness
> out of the realm of religion and my change of view when reaching the age of
> 15 regarding the bible.
> > > >
> > > > The one specific difference that applies to your post is that
> traditionally, conversion to Judaism is frowned upon; they definitely do
> not seek converts or attempt to convert others, and those who seek out
> becoming Jewish and asking for conversion must go through rigorous
> education and examination before it will even be accepted (and then only by
> some groups of Jews). Since Judaism itself has been watered down to several
> sects as well, there may be easier methods of conversion among some
> "reform" congregations, but these are not accepted by Traditionalists. The
> only reason most Rabbaim "Jewish Clergy" would even consider conversion is
> when a Jewish man insists on marrying a non-Jewish female; since Judaism is
> decided by the Mother, it would be done for the reason of having the
> children accepted as Jewish. There are still many Jewish traditionalists
> that would not even consider allowing conversion or consider a "convert"
> actually Jewish.
> > > >
> > > > Just some insight as many other faiths do not have any clue about
> Traditional Judaism.
> > > > I do not take any offense, so please do not take any of this post as
> such. I simply wanted to state a point.
> > > > Thanks,
> > > > Aaron
> > > >
> > > > On Dec 18, 2011, at 8:21 PM, yzermongol wrote:
> > > >
> > > > > Hello Andrew,
> > > > >
> > > > > I wanted to respond to your post- just to try to give you an
> indigenous perspective. The Abrahamic faiths (Christianity, Judaism, and
> Islam) are all open to converts and sometimes even force people into
> conversion. Allowing others to follow their belief system is normal for
> their faith and is often encouraged. When a person is raised around faiths
> like this, it is difficult to understand how other spiritual traditions
> might not be as welcoming to converts or sharing their sacred traditions.
> > > > > However, many indigenous people see their traditions as part of
> their cultural and racial identity. There is no concept of conversion and
> they would really be shocked and curious if someone approached them with
> the idea. Furthermore, it can be a sore-spot for those who had their lands
> appropriated and other atrocities done to their people. In their view,
> enough has already been "taken" from them. "Borrowing ceremonies" often
> falls into this catagory from their point of view.
> > > > > It is difficult to clearly understand others that are raised with
> a different world view. So although you might not be offended if people
> tried out runes, you are coming from a different perspective than many
> native people. Just food for thought.
> > > > >
> > > > > --- In ShamanicWays@yahoogroups.com, andrew docker <see2dream@>
> wrote:
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Hi Aaron,
> > > > > >
> > > > > > In a sense that is what I am trying to get at, and obviously I
> feel that your direct experiences in that area are different from mine-and
> undoubtedly more knowledgeable. The 'despacho' thing is not the real thing
> either-but does it matter?.
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Some years ago I was involved in organising lectures on various
> metaphysical subjects in Manchester, We had Warren Kenton speak twice, and
> our private conversations were very memorable. There were many elders and
> rabbis of that faith present, and what an amazing interplay of ideas and
> theories-I will never forget it. My son, who was very young then still
> talks about it.
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > 'but rather take the stand that it doesn't matter because it's
> simply not the same thing!' Thats exactly what I mean Aaron! Instead of
> fooling around blaming those terrible white usurpers of indigenous
> knowledge, why can't we celebrate the spreading of knowledge throughout the
> world-knowledge that frees humanity from bondage, and lets the soul fly
> free.
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Are we on a spiritual quest, or wrapping ourselves up in base
> mundane bickering? Why don't we take all the good and work on that. When I
> talk to spirit, it never refuses to let me in,or ask me what language I
> speak, it is universal. Should I ignore the teaching contacts that have
> been with me for many years because they are not of my present geographical
> location? Have I always manifested on earth in this location? No... I think
> that we have to look way beyond the petty minor tensions and see the
> universal picture-we are all One!
> > > > > >
> > > > > > How can we carry our work forward if we shackle ourselves with
> chains of ignorance?
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Andrew
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > ________________________________
> > > > > > From: Aaron <aaronreid19103@>
> > > > > > To: ShamanicWays@yahoogroups.com
> > > > > > Sent: Sunday, 18 December 2011, 22:53
> > > > > > Subject: Re: [Shamanic Ways] Fwd: FREE Despacho Kit: Buy 4 Kits
> Get 1 Free Offer Extended Through December 31
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Andrew,
> > > > > >
> > > > > > I'm in almost complete agreement, especially with your last
> paragraph.
> > > > > > I do have to say that there is one thing with which we have a
> different experience; you wrote:
> > > > > > > "It is similar to the adption of the Quabalah as a system of
> knowledge by the west. However, those who celebrate it in its original form
> that I know are pleased that it has been adopted as a system of
> self-development, and claim no ownership as they see all higher knowledge
> as being the divine right of humanity in general."
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > I grew up in a traditionally Jewish environment and the
> "Quabalah" being thrown around is definitely NOT respected among
> traditional Hebrew scholars. While I will agree that they are more tolerant
> than some and don't outwardly or publicly object to these practices, it is
> because they believe the "Quabalah" that was made popular in the past
> couple decades is just a watered down, untrue version of Kabbalah. Even my
> father, who is a Hebrew scholar will not study Kabbalah as he doesn't even
> feel he is someone who should delve into such teachings. So, the main
> difference is that they don't hem and haw about their tradition being
> stolen, but rather take the stand that it doesn't matter because it's
> simply not the same thing.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Blessings,
> > > > > > Aaron
> > > > > >
> > > > > > On Dec 18, 2011, at 2:55 PM, andrew docker wrote:
> > > > > >
> > > > > > > And therefore not to be taken so seriously then I would have
> > > > > > > thought! It is similar to the adption of the Quabalah as a
> system of
> > > > > > > knowledge by the west. However, those who celebrate it in its
> original
> > > > > > > form that I know are pleased that it has been adopted as a
> system of
> > > > > > > self-development, and claim no ownership as they see all
> higher
> > > > > > > knowledge as being the divine right of humanity in general. I
> really
> > > > > > > don't see why the strong feelings here. If I collect items
> available to
> > > > > > > me locally for my workings (as I do) then that is essentially
> the same
> > > > > > > thing as she sells-and it is a common world-wide practice. If
> I saw a
> > > > > > > post on here from a person of that belief that criticised her
> actions
> > > > > > > then fair enough-but I don't think I have yet.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > If I minded people making runesets and calling them runes even
> though they are not of my culture or beliefs, then I would be kept very
> busy
> > > > > > > complaining. I have spoken to wise people of other cultures to
> myself
> > > > > > > who feel strongly that their knowledge can be the key to
> humanities
> > > > > > > evolution and understanding (that is why they teach), and I
> have not
> > > > > > > heard these concerns mentioned.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > I think I would rather look outwards at the common
> similarities amongst
> > > > > > > those who work for good than pick over words. The world in a
> sense is
> > > > > > > shrinking and to me anything (like this even) that provokes
> thought in
> > > > > > > people and causes them to explore for themselves has to be
> good. Ok-she
> > > > > > > may make a little money-but if it leads to a few people
> opening their
> > > > > > > perceptions then for one I don't really care!
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Andrew
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > ________________________________
> > > > > > > From: Branwyn ni
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > ________________________________
> > > > > > > From: Branwyn ni Druaidh <welshwmn3@>
> > > > > > > To: ShamanicWays@yahoogroups.com
> > > > > > > Sent: Sunday, 18 December 2011, 17:29
> > > > > > > Subject: Re: [Shamanic Ways] Fwd: FREE Despacho Kit: Buy 4
> Kits Get 1 Free Offer Extended Through December 31
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > "There is no religion associated with prayer bundles, they're
> compatible
> > > > > > > with all beliefs."
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > That is patently untrue. The despachos are part of
> > > > > > > the indigenous Incan/Inkan religious practices. The religion
> is very
> > > > > > > strong in in the worship/reverence of the Directions, the
> Mountains, Nature
> > > > > > > et al. To say that the despachos have no religious association
> is to say
> > > > > > > that the Pipe Ceremony has no religious association, that the
> Blessing Way
> > > > > > > has no religious association, that the Roman Catholic "Last
> Rights" have no
> > > > > > > religious association.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > This appears to be another example of a white person taking
> what they want
> > > > > > > of the teachings of the indigenous people, dropping what they
> don't want,
> > > > > > > and selling and profiting from things they don't truly
> understand.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > *sighs*
> > > > > > > Bronwen
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > On Sun, Dec 18, 2011 at 2:02 AM, andrew docker <see2dream@
> >wrote:
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > **
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > 'To bring about change in accordance with the will'. That is
> the accepted
> > > > > > > > definition of magical practice.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > I don't see anything strange about this. Isn't it similar to
> people
> > > > > > > > charging money for courses etc? I feel that if it opens
> peoples eyes to the
> > > > > > > > potential of changing their lives for the better then how
> can it be strange
> > > > > > > > or different from buying a book?
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > Andy
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > ________________________________
> > > > > > > > From: Nick Noble Wolf <true_dog@>
> > > > > > > > To: Shamanic Ways <ShamanicWays@yahoogroups.com>
> > > > > > > > Sent: Friday, 16 December 2011, 13:46
> > > > > > > > Subject: [Shamanic Ways] Fwd: FREE Despacho Kit: Buy 4 Kits
> Get 1 Free
> > > > > > > > Offer Extended Through December 31
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > I just received the following spam. I was pretty weirded
> out. Then I
> > > > > > > > went to her site (www.prayerbundles.com <
> http://www.prayerbundles.com>).
> > > > > > > > Now I am speechless.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > What do you think?
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > Blessings,
> > > > > > > > ~Nick
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > -------- Original Message --------
> > > > > > > > Subject: FREE Despacho Kit: Buy 4 Kits Get 1 Free Offer
> Extended
> > > > > > > > Through December 31
> > > > > > > > Date: Wed, 14 Dec 2011 17:12:11 -0800
> > > > > > > > From: Kerri Colegrove <prayerbundles@>
> > > > > > > > To: undisclosed-recipients:;
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > Seasons Greetings,
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > FREE Despacho Kits are very popular this holiday season with
> the *Buy 4
> > > > > > > > Kits Get 1 Free* Holiday Sale -- so we've extended this sale
> to Dec 31.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > In addition to personal use, offering despacho ceremonies to
> your
> > > > > > > > community is a great way to build your practice. Here's what
> an
> > > > > > > > Australian shamanic practitioner wrote...
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > "I have just started offering Despacho Ceremonies within my
> > > > > > > > business - and I have to say, my clients LOVE them. How
> > > > > > > > blessed we are for this training AND how blessed I am to
> > > > > > > > know you and your books! xoxoxo"
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > *To take advantage of the Buy 4 Kits Get 1 Free sale call
> (310) 237-2421
> > > > > > > > <tel:%28310%29%20237-2421> or email: prayerbundles@
> > > > > > > > <mailto:prayerbundles@>.* Let us know what kits you'd like
> and
> > > > > > > > we'll send you an invoice and the kits will follow.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > We have over a dozen despacho kits now in stock, each with
> very unique
> > > > > > > > and specific action, including:
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > *Ayni Abundance Kit* -- Put your entire New Year's wish list
> into this
> > > > > > > > one, then make one monthly to keep big blessings flowing
> > > > > > > > to you all year.
> > > > > > > > *Aya Death Kit -- *To celebrate traditional passing or _for
> those
> > > > > > > > wanting a "new life"_, these kits make an extra beautiful
> despacho.
> > > > > > > > *Cuti (Protection) Kit* -- _Gets rid of toxic energy_ others
> have sent
> > > > > > > > to you (usually unwittingly) via anger, resentment, envy,
> etc.,
> > > > > > > > a must for everyone at least once.
> > > > > > > > *Wiska (Freedom) Kit* -- _Unsticks energy vampires and
> such_, a must for
> > > > > > > > everyone at least once. Fun to make.
> > > > > > > > *House Cleanse Kit* - Combine this one and the two above,
> wiska and
> > > > > > > > cuti, for a *Giant Triple Cleanse* to start the New Year off
> > > > > > > > squeaky clean energetically. _Great
> > > > > > > > help for selling a house_.
> > > > > > > > *Feminine Healing Kit* - Transforms emotional trauma into
> strength,
> > > > > > > > _helps men get in better touch with their feelings_.
> > > > > > > > *Masculine Healing Kit* - Gals, empowers you by empowering
> your inner
> > > > > > > > masculine. Guys, great for your career.
> > > > > > > > *Wedding Celebration Kit* -- Brings extra blessings to
> newlyweds.
> > > > > > > > *Birth Celebration Kit* -- Brings extra blessings to newborn
> babes.
> > > > > > > > *New Path Kit *-- To support a big direction change in life.
> > > > > > > > *Money Kit* -- Special action to attract more money.
> > > > > > > > *Mastery of Time Kit* -- People who make this one have
> discovered extra
> > > > > > > > time, gets you in right relationship with time so you
> > > > > > > > have _plenty of time for everything_!
> > > > > > > > *Bee Kit* -- Honors the energetic archetype of the bee to
> help you
> > > > > > > > foster more community and productivity -- great for business.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > The Ayni Kit is $35. All other kits are $37 each. Shipping
> for 5 kits is
> > > > > > > > $20.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > To*Buy 4 Kits Get 1 Free, call (310) 237-2421
> <tel:%28310%29%20237-2421>
> > > > > > > > or email: prayerbundles@ <mailto:prayerbundles@>.*
> > > > > > > > Give us a list of the kits you want so we can send you an
> invoice and
> > > > > > > > then the kits. We will confirm your order within 24 hours.
> If you have
> > > > > > > > any questions please call.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > Thank you to all our customers and friends for making 2011
> such a great
> > > > > > > > year for us. We look forward to helping make 2012 a great
> year for you.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > --
> > > > > > > > Kerri Colegrove
> > > > > > > > Prayer Bundles
> > > > > > > > (310) 237-2421 <tel:%28310%29%20237-2421>
> > > > > > > > www.prayerbundles.com <http://www.prayerbundles.com>
> > > > > > > > Ignite Your Life!
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > To receive no more emails from Prayer Bundles, reply to this
> email with
> > > > > > > > the message "unsubscribe." Thank you.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > --
> > > > > > > Per pale argent and purpure, two phoenixes counterchanged
> sable and argent
> > > > > > > each rising from flames proper.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > "It is sometimes the most fragile things that have the power
> to endure and
> > > > > > > become sources of strength."
> > > > > > > - May Sarton
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > "Only a life lived in the service to others is worth living."-
> Albert
> > > > > > > Einstein
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > "Out of clutter, find Simplicity. From discord, find Harmony.
> In the middle
> > > > > > > of difficulty lies opportunity." - Albert Einstein
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > "And the day came when the risk to remain tight in a bud was
> more painful
> > > > > > > than the risk it took to blossom." - Anais Nin
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > "Go confidently in the direction of your dreams. Live the life
> you have
> > > > > > > imagined." - Henry David Thoreau
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > ------------------------------------
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Note that all attachments are removed to minimize the possible
> spread of viruses.Yahoo! Groups Links
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > ------------------------------------
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Note that all attachments are removed to minimize the possible
> spread of viruses.Yahoo! Groups Links
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> > > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> > > >
> > >
> > >
> >
> >
> >
> > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> >
> >
> >
> > ------------------------------------
> >
> > Note that all attachments are removed to minimize the possible spread of
> viruses.Yahoo! Groups Links
> >
> >
> >
> > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> >
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
>



--
Per pale argent and purpure, two phoenixes counterchanged sable and argent
each rising from flames proper.

"It is sometimes the most fragile things that have the power to endure and
become sources of strength."
- May Sarton

"Only a life lived in the service to others is worth living."- Albert
Einstein

"Out of clutter, find Simplicity. From discord, find Harmony. In the middle
of difficulty lies opportunity." - Albert Einstein

"And the day came when the risk to remain tight in a bud was more painful
than the risk it took to blossom." - Anais Nin

"Go confidently in the direction of your dreams. Live the life you have
imagined." - Henry David Thoreau


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Although I didn't think of it as 'derailing', perhaps making an effort to bring
an end to an issue that is getting out of hand is the same thing?

I feel my comments were misinterpreted, and I agree with Steve's stance
generally. For example: If I say I am aware of atrocities, it doesn't mean that
I claim to know all about them! If I try to show that suppression is alive and
well in modern western society, it doesn't mean that I am one of those people
who oppress! I find that quite disturbing from someone who does not know me or
the work I do.


Maybe it is a language problem I don't know, but my motives are not the same as
in the link you posted. Balance is important to me, and I try to maintain that
perspective in order to see clearly, and not as a means of disassociating my
self from the ills of the world

Andrew



________________________________
  From: Branwyn ni Druaidh <welshwmn3@...>
To: ShamanicWays@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Tuesday, 20 December 2011, 1:14
Subject: Re: [Shamanic Ways] Fwd: FREE Despacho Kit: Buy 4 Kits Get 1 Free Offer
Extended Through December 31

http://derailingfordummies.com/

While "You are just being judgemental/You aren't responding in a balanced
manner" isn't in there, there is some very good information on what
"privilege" is, what derailing is, and how good people engage in it.

Bronwen

On Mon, Dec 19, 2011 at 11:07 AM, andrew docker <see2dream@...>wrote:

> **
>
>
> Hi Steve,
>
> I think it is always a mistake to react by being judgemental and with
> anger Steve. You know little about me or my commitment to my beliefs, and
> your judgementalism says a lot about you. It wasn't a very balanced
> response was it? I'm not going to insult you by assuming I know what drives
> your anger, so I think I will leave it there. I wonder if those who
> commited the atrocities were as judgemental as you, and as sure as you seem
> to be regarding other peoples qualities and motives?
>
> Andy
>
> ________________________________
> From: yzermongol <yzermongol@...>
> To: ShamanicWays@yahoogroups.com
> Sent: Monday, 19 December 2011, 17:33
>
> Subject: Re: [Shamanic Ways] Fwd: FREE Despacho Kit: Buy 4 Kits Get 1 Free
> Offer Extended Through December 31
>
>
>
> Andrew:
>
> --- In ShamanicWays@yahoogroups.com, andrew docker <see2dream@...> wrote:
> >
> > Ok...you got me Steve! Seriously though that comment of mine was tongue
> in cheek. I don't think I am insensitive, neither do I react dogmatically.
> >
>
> ***Most insensitive people are unaware of their insensitivity or they
> would not act that way.
>
> > I am aware of the recent past and its atrocities, and the most powerful
> feelings are obviously generated through actual memory.
>
> ***I disagree here. I am sure you have heard of some atrocities but
> certainly not all. You have no idea what happened in Siberia. Also- they
> are not all "in the past" but ongoing. If you *are* aware of the
> atrocities- then more shame on you for blowing them off so easily.
>
> However, although I have the utmost sympathy with the victims, I refuse to
> get myself into an unbalanced spin through allowing emotion to cloud my
> perspective.
>
> ***Nice way to disconnect yourself from any responsibility for your
> position.
>
> This series of posts seems to be more concerned with anger over the past,
> and the past has gone. My concern is the future, and what we can build
> within it.
>
> ***The past, present, and future are all one. You can not separate them.
> Again, this is your tact to wash your hands of anything you don't want to
> face. How will you build a future on disrespect?
>
> The persecution will go on, and even in my 'civilised' country, people are
> still locked up or drugged for displaying what would be recognised as
> 'shamanic' tendencies in truer cultures. The church still works to
> marginalise non-believers, and the state backs them.
> It is still going on Steve, and unfortunately there is no accepted ancient
> cultural tradiiton here recognised enough to speak loudly against it.
> >
>
> ***Plenty of people from "ancient cultural tradition" have spoken up only
> to be silenced by people like you who like to say "We are going to take
> your spiritual traditions whether you like it or not- but be happy about it
> because we are all working for a happy future together". I tell you this-
> until there is *respect* given to indigenous cultures (which means to at
> least listen to them about their concerns) there will be no holding hands
> together in the future.
>
> By the way- I have been a strong supporter of those trying to reclaim
> their ancestoral traditions- just ask the Heathen community. There is a
> great amount of support and respect between the some of the Heathen and
> Siberian shaman communities.
> Steve
>
> > Andy
> >
> >
> >
> > ________________________________
> > From: Aaron <aaronreid19103@...>
> > To: ShamanicWays@yahoogroups.com
> > Sent: Monday, 19 December 2011, 16:47
> > Subject: Re: [Shamanic Ways] Fwd: FREE Despacho Kit: Buy 4 Kits Get 1
> Free Offer Extended Through December 31
> >
> > Steve … please re-read the posts to clarify who said what.  I said
> none of those things in your second paragraph; I think you are lumping me
> and Andy together.
> > The only thing I agreed with Andy about is that Spiritual development of
> any kind is good; I do NOT condone any of the things you discuss, but
> simply find it unhealthy to hold on to anger over what others are doing, no
> matter how "wrong".
> > I don't expect it to be seen as a compliment and certainly don't expect
> it to be accepted as the same.
> > Aaron
> > On Dec 19, 2011, at 10:59 AM, yzermongol wrote:
> >
> > > Aaron,
> > >
> > > While I agree that Christianity and Islam do convert far more than
> Judaism, my point was that the concept of conversion is not completely
> foreign. In any case, instead of just focussing on that- how about
> responding to the meat of my post? I was trying to explain why indegenous
> people *do* have a problem with the misappropriation of their culture and
> ceremonies. They do not see it as a "compliment". The only reason that
> white people wish they would see it as a compliment is so that they don't
> have to feel guilty by profaning their religion.
> > > To be honest, I am really shocked at some of your insensitive comments
> on the subject. Things you said like indegenous people were "blaming the
> terrible white usurpers" make you seem to others as if you are making light
> of the atrocities that have occured. In Siberia, even in recent times
> shamans have been killed for practicing their beliefs. They were taken up
> in helicopters and thrown out to their deaths. This is too recent to have
> "gotten over" by now. Your sense of entitlement is epic.
> > > Steve
> > >
> > > --- In ShamanicWays@yahoogroups.com, Aaron <aaronreid19103@> wrote:
> > > >
> > > > Hi Steve. I completely understand your point of view, so I'd like to
> express my sincere distaste for lumping Judaism, with Islam and
> Christianity … either by saying the Abrahamic faiths or using the term
> Judeo-Christian. While I no longer consider myself a part of the Jewish
> religion, it was my root spiritual base before expanding my consciousness
> out of the realm of religion and my change of view when reaching the age of
> 15 regarding the bible.
> > > >
> > > > The one specific difference that applies to your post is that
> traditionally, conversion to Judaism is frowned upon; they definitely do
> not seek converts or attempt to convert others, and those who seek out
> becoming Jewish and asking for conversion must go through rigorous
> education and examination before it will even be accepted (and then only by
> some groups of Jews). Since Judaism itself has been watered down to several
> sects as well, there may be easier methods of conversion among some
> "reform" congregations, but these are not accepted by Traditionalists. The
> only reason most Rabbaim "Jewish Clergy" would even consider conversion is
> when a Jewish man insists on marrying a non-Jewish female; since Judaism is
> decided by the Mother, it would be done for the reason of having the
> children accepted as Jewish. There are still many Jewish traditionalists
> that would not even consider allowing conversion or consider a "convert"
> actually Jewish.
> > > >
> > > > Just some insight as many other faiths do not have any clue about
> Traditional Judaism.
> > > > I do not take any offense, so please do not take any of this post as
> such. I simply wanted to state a point.
> > > > Thanks,
> > > > Aaron
> > > >
> > > > On Dec 18, 2011, at 8:21 PM, yzermongol wrote:
> > > >
> > > > > Hello Andrew,
> > > > >
> > > > > I wanted to respond to your post- just to try to give you an
> indigenous perspective. The Abrahamic faiths (Christianity, Judaism, and
> Islam) are all open to converts and sometimes even force people into
> conversion. Allowing others to follow their belief system is normal for
> their faith and is often encouraged. When a person is raised around faiths
> like this, it is difficult to understand how other spiritual traditions
> might not be as welcoming to converts or sharing their sacred traditions.
> > > > > However, many indigenous people see their traditions as part of
> their cultural and racial identity. There is no concept of conversion and
> they would really be shocked and curious if someone approached them with
> the idea. Furthermore, it can be a sore-spot for those who had their lands
> appropriated and other atrocities done to their people. In their view,
> enough has already been "taken" from them. "Borrowing ceremonies" often
> falls into this catagory from their point of view.
> > > > > It is difficult to clearly understand others that are raised with
> a different world view. So although you might not be offended if people
> tried out runes, you are coming from a different perspective than many
> native people. Just food for thought.
> > > > >
> > > > > --- In ShamanicWays@yahoogroups.com, andrew docker <see2dream@>
> wrote:
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Hi Aaron,
> > > > > >
> > > > > > In a sense that is what I am trying to get at, and obviously I
> feel that your direct experiences in that area are different from mine-and
> undoubtedly more knowledgeable. The 'despacho' thing is not the real thing
> either-but does it matter?.
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Some years ago I was involved in organising lectures on various
> metaphysical subjects in Manchester, We had Warren Kenton speak twice, and
> our private conversations were very memorable. There were many elders and
> rabbis of that faith present, and what an amazing interplay of ideas and
> theories-I will never forget it. My son, who was very young then still
> talks about it.
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > 'but rather take the stand that it doesn't matter because it's
> simply not the same thing!' Thats exactly what I mean Aaron! Instead of
> fooling around blaming those terrible white usurpers of indigenous
> knowledge, why can't we celebrate the spreading of knowledge throughout the
> world-knowledge that frees humanity from bondage, and lets the soul fly
> free.
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Are we on a spiritual quest, or wrapping ourselves up in base
> mundane bickering? Why don't we take all the good and work on that. When I
> talk to spirit, it never refuses to let me in,or ask me what language I
> speak, it is universal. Should I ignore the teaching contacts that have
> been with me for many years because they are not of my present geographical
> location? Have I always manifested on earth in this location? No... I think
> that we have to look way beyond the petty minor tensions and see the
> universal picture-we are all One!
> > > > > >
> > > > > > How can we carry our work forward if we shackle ourselves with
> chains of ignorance?
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Andrew
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > ________________________________
> > > > > > From: Aaron <aaronreid19103@>
> > > > > > To: ShamanicWays@yahoogroups.com
> > > > > > Sent: Sunday, 18 December 2011, 22:53
> > > > > > Subject: Re: [Shamanic Ways] Fwd: FREE Despacho Kit: Buy 4 Kits
> Get 1 Free Offer Extended Through December 31
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Andrew,
> > > > > >
> > > > > > I'm in almost complete agreement, especially with your last
> paragraph.
> > > > > > I do have to say that there is one thing with which we have a
> different experience; you wrote:
> > > > > > > "It is similar to the adption of the Quabalah as a system of
> knowledge by the west. However, those who celebrate it in its original form
> that I know are pleased that it has been adopted as a system of
> self-development, and claim no ownership as they see all higher knowledge
> as being the divine right of humanity in general."
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > I grew up in a traditionally Jewish environment and the
> "Quabalah" being thrown around is definitely NOT respected among
> traditional Hebrew scholars. While I will agree that they are more tolerant
> than some and don't outwardly or publicly object to these practices, it is
> because they believe the "Quabalah" that was made popular in the past
> couple decades is just a watered down, untrue version of Kabbalah. Even my
> father, who is a Hebrew scholar will not study Kabbalah as he doesn't even
> feel he is someone who should delve into such teachings. So, the main
> difference is that they don't hem and haw about their tradition being
> stolen, but rather take the stand that it doesn't matter because it's
> simply not the same thing.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Blessings,
> > > > > > Aaron
> > > > > >
> > > > > > On Dec 18, 2011, at 2:55 PM, andrew docker wrote:
> > > > > >
> > > > > > > And therefore not to be taken so seriously then I would have
> > > > > > > thought! It is similar to the adption of the Quabalah as a
> system of
> > > > > > > knowledge by the west. However, those who celebrate it in its
> original
> > > > > > > form that I know are pleased that it has been adopted as a
> system of
> > > > > > > self-development, and claim no ownership as they see all
> higher
> > > > > > > knowledge as being the divine right of humanity in general. I
> really
> > > > > > > don't see why the strong feelings here. If I collect items
> available to
> > > > > > > me locally for my workings (as I do) then that is essentially
> the same
> > > > > > > thing as she sells-and it is a common world-wide practice. If
> I saw a
> > > > > > > post on here from a person of that belief that criticised her
> actions
> > > > > > > then fair enough-but I don't think I have yet.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > If I minded people making runesets and calling them runes even
> though they are not of my culture or beliefs, then I would be kept very
> busy
> > > > > > > complaining. I have spoken to wise people of other cultures to
> myself
> > > > > > > who feel strongly that their knowledge can be the key to
> humanities
> > > > > > > evolution and understanding (that is why they teach), and I
> have not
> > > > > > > heard these concerns mentioned.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > I think I would rather look outwards at the common
> similarities amongst
> > > > > > > those who work for good than pick over words. The world in a
> sense is
> > > > > > > shrinking and to me anything (like this even) that provokes
> thought in
> > > > > > > people and causes them to explore for themselves has to be
> good. Ok-she
> > > > > > > may make a little money-but if it leads to a few people
> opening their
> > > > > > > perceptions then for one I don't really care!
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Andrew
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > ________________________________
> > > > > > > From: Branwyn ni
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > ________________________________
> > > > > > > From: Branwyn ni Druaidh <welshwmn3@>
> > > > > > > To: ShamanicWays@yahoogroups.com
> > > > > > > Sent: Sunday, 18 December 2011, 17:29
> > > > > > > Subject: Re: [Shamanic Ways] Fwd: FREE Despacho Kit: Buy 4
> Kits Get 1 Free Offer Extended Through December 31
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > "There is no religion associated with prayer bundles, they're
> compatible
> > > > > > > with all beliefs."
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > That is patently untrue. The despachos are part of
> > > > > > > the indigenous Incan/Inkan religious practices. The religion
> is very
> > > > > > > strong in in the worship/reverence of the Directions, the
> Mountains, Nature
> > > > > > > et al. To say that the despachos have no religious association
> is to say
> > > > > > > that the Pipe Ceremony has no religious association, that the
> Blessing Way
> > > > > > > has no religious association, that the Roman Catholic "Last
> Rights" have no
> > > > > > > religious association.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > This appears to be another example of a white person taking
> what they want
> > > > > > > of the teachings of the indigenous people, dropping what they
> don't want,
> > > > > > > and selling and profiting from things they don't truly
> understand.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > *sighs*
> > > > > > > Bronwen
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > On Sun, Dec 18, 2011 at 2:02 AM, andrew docker <see2dream@
> >wrote:
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > **
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > 'To bring about change in accordance with the will'. That is
> the accepted
> > > > > > > > definition of magical practice.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > I don't see anything strange about this. Isn't it similar to
> people
> > > > > > > > charging money for courses etc? I feel that if it opens
> peoples eyes to the
> > > > > > > > potential of changing their lives for the better then how
> can it be strange
> > > > > > > > or different from buying a book?
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > Andy
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > ________________________________
> > > > > > > > From: Nick Noble Wolf <true_dog@>
> > > > > > > > To: Shamanic Ways <ShamanicWays@yahoogroups.com>
> > > > > > > > Sent: Friday, 16 December 2011, 13:46
> > > > > > > > Subject: [Shamanic Ways] Fwd: FREE Despacho Kit: Buy 4 Kits
> Get 1 Free
> > > > > > > > Offer Extended Through December 31
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > I just received the following spam. I was pretty weirded
> out. Then I
> > > > > > > > went to her site (www.prayerbundles.com <
> http://www.prayerbundles.com>).
> > > > > > > > Now I am speechless.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > What do you think?
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > Blessings,
> > > > > > > > ~Nick
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > -------- Original Message --------
> > > > > > > > Subject: FREE Despacho Kit: Buy 4 Kits Get 1 Free Offer
> Extended
> > > > > > > > Through December 31
> > > > > > > > Date: Wed, 14 Dec 2011 17:12:11 -0800
> > > > > > > > From: Kerri Colegrove <prayerbundles@>
> > > > > > > > To: undisclosed-recipients:;
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > Seasons Greetings,
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > FREE Despacho Kits are very popular this holiday season with
> the *Buy 4
> > > > > > > > Kits Get 1 Free* Holiday Sale -- so we've extended this sale
> to Dec 31.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > In addition to personal use, offering despacho ceremonies to
> your
> > > > > > > > community is a great way to build your practice. Here's what
> an
> > > > > > > > Australian shamanic practitioner wrote...
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > "I have just started offering Despacho Ceremonies within my
> > > > > > > > business - and I have to say, my clients LOVE them. How
> > > > > > > > blessed we are for this training AND how blessed I am to
> > > > > > > > know you and your books! xoxoxo"
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > *To take advantage of the Buy 4 Kits Get 1 Free sale call
> (310) 237-2421
> > > > > > > > <tel:%28310%29%20237-2421> or email: prayerbundles@
> > > > > > > > <mailto:prayerbundles@>.* Let us know what kits you'd like
> and
> > > > > > > > we'll send you an invoice and the kits will follow.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > We have over a dozen despacho kits now in stock, each with
> very unique
> > > > > > > > and specific action, including:
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > *Ayni Abundance Kit* -- Put your entire New Year's wish list
> into this
> > > > > > > > one, then make one monthly to keep big blessings flowing
> > > > > > > > to you all year.
> > > > > > > > *Aya Death Kit -- *To celebrate traditional passing or _for
> those
> > > > > > > > wanting a "new life"_, these kits make an extra beautiful
> despacho.
> > > > > > > > *Cuti (Protection) Kit* -- _Gets rid of toxic energy_ others
> have sent
> > > > > > > > to you (usually unwittingly) via anger, resentment, envy,
> etc.,
> > > > > > > > a must for everyone at least once.
> > > > > > > > *Wiska (Freedom) Kit* -- _Unsticks energy vampires and
> such_, a must for
> > > > > > > > everyone at least once. Fun to make.
> > > > > > > > *House Cleanse Kit* - Combine this one and the two above,
> wiska and
> > > > > > > > cuti, for a *Giant Triple Cleanse* to start the New Year off
> > > > > > > > squeaky clean energetically. _Great
> > > > > > > > help for selling a house_.
> > > > > > > > *Feminine Healing Kit* - Transforms emotional trauma into
> strength,
> > > > > > > > _helps men get in better touch with their feelings_.
> > > > > > > > *Masculine Healing Kit* - Gals, empowers you by empowering
> your inner
> > > > > > > > masculine. Guys, great for your career.
> > > > > > > > *Wedding Celebration Kit* -- Brings extra blessings to
> newlyweds.
> > > > > > > > *Birth Celebration Kit* -- Brings extra blessings to newborn
> babes.
> > > > > > > > *New Path Kit *-- To support a big direction change in life.
> > > > > > > > *Money Kit* -- Special action to attract more money.
> > > > > > > > *Mastery of Time Kit* -- People who make this one have
> discovered extra
> > > > > > > > time, gets you in right relationship with time so you
> > > > > > > > have _plenty of time for everything_!
> > > > > > > > *Bee Kit* -- Honors the energetic archetype of the bee to
> help you
> > > > > > > > foster more community and productivity -- great for business.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > The Ayni Kit is $35. All other kits are $37 each. Shipping
> for 5 kits is
> > > > > > > > $20.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > To*Buy 4 Kits Get 1 Free, call (310) 237-2421
> <tel:%28310%29%20237-2421>
> > > > > > > > or email: prayerbundles@ <mailto:prayerbundles@>.*
> > > > > > > > Give us a list of the kits you want so we can send you an
> invoice and
> > > > > > > > then the kits. We will confirm your order within 24 hours.
> If you have
> > > > > > > > any questions please call.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > Thank you to all our customers and friends for making 2011
> such a great
> > > > > > > > year for us. We look forward to helping make 2012 a great
> year for you.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > --
> > > > > > > > Kerri Colegrove
> > > > > > > > Prayer Bundles
> > > > > > > > (310) 237-2421 <tel:%28310%29%20237-2421>
> > > > > > > > www.prayerbundles.com <http://www.prayerbundles.com>
> > > > > > > > Ignite Your Life!
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > To receive no more emails from Prayer Bundles, reply to this
> email with
> > > > > > > > the message "unsubscribe." Thank you.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > --
> > > > > > > Per pale argent and purpure, two phoenixes counterchanged
> sable and argent
> > > > > > > each rising from flames proper.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > "It is sometimes the most fragile things that have the power
> to endure and
> > > > > > > become sources of strength."
> > > > > > > - May Sarton
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > "Only a life lived in the service to others is worth living."-
> Albert
> > > > > > > Einstein
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > "Out of clutter, find Simplicity. From discord, find Harmony.
> In the middle
> > > > > > > of difficulty lies opportunity." - Albert Einstein
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > "And the day came when the risk to remain tight in a bud was
> more painful
> > > > > > > than the risk it took to blossom." - Anais Nin
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > "Go confidently in the direction of your dreams. Live the life
> you have
> > > > > > > imagined." - Henry David Thoreau
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > ------------------------------------
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Note that all attachments are removed to minimize the possible
> spread of viruses.Yahoo! Groups Links
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > ------------------------------------
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Note that all attachments are removed to minimize the possible
> spread of viruses.Yahoo! Groups Links
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> > > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> > > >
> > >
> > >
> >
> >
> >
> > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> >
> >
> >
> > ------------------------------------
> >
> > Note that all attachments are removed to minimize the possible spread of
> viruses.Yahoo! Groups Links
> >
> >
> >
> > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> >
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
> 
>



--
Per pale argent and purpure, two phoenixes counterchanged sable and argent
each rising from flames proper.

"It is sometimes the most fragile things that have the power to endure and
become sources of strength."
- May Sarton

"Only a life lived in the service to others is worth living."- Albert
Einstein

"Out of clutter, find Simplicity. From discord, find Harmony. In the middle
of difficulty lies opportunity." - Albert Einstein

"And the day came when the risk to remain tight in a bud was more painful
than the risk it took to blossom." - Anais Nin

"Go confidently in the direction of your dreams. Live the life you have
imagined." - Henry David Thoreau


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]



------------------------------------

Note that all attachments are removed to minimize the possible spread of
viruses.Yahoo! Groups Links



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

LOL

Blessings,
~N

On 12/19/2011 6:26 AM, andrew docker wrote:
> Well Nick...if you haven't progressed to The Arcane Knowledge of the Gummy
Bears Stage the I'm afraid you cannot possibly understand the true meaning of
the practitioner. I'm amazed that you reveal such a gap in your knowledge on the
site :o)
>
> How can they work? They are not what they are described as anyway, and I feel
there only value is to hopefully point someone in the direction of their own
path.
>
>
> A group of us once wrote a ritual using invocations named after chocolate
bars-nothing happened but it tasted good!
>
> A


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Andrew & Steve: I think you have both said your piece on this subject
and there is no value in continuing to hash it out on here. I would be
honored to have the two of you disengage on this subject.

Blessings,
~Nick

On 12/20/2011 2:11 AM, andrew docker wrote:
> Although I didn't think of it as 'derailing', perhaps making an effort to
bring an end to an issue that is getting out of hand is the same thing?
>
> I feel my comments were misinterpreted, and I agree with Steve's stance
generally. For example: If I say I am aware of atrocities, it doesn't mean that
I claim to know all about them! If I try to show that suppression is alive and
well in modern western society, it doesn't mean that I am one of those people
who oppress! I find that quite disturbing from someone who does not know me or
the work I do.
>
>
> Maybe it is a language problem I don't know, but my motives are not the same
as in the link you posted. Balance is important to me, and I try to maintain
that perspective in order to see clearly, and not as a means of disassociating
my self from the ills of the world
>
> Andrew
>
>
>
> ________________________________
>   From: Branwyn ni Druaidh<welshwmn3@...>
> To: ShamanicWays@yahoogroups.com
> Sent: Tuesday, 20 December 2011, 1:14
> Subject: Re: [Shamanic Ways] Fwd: FREE Despacho Kit: Buy 4 Kits Get 1 Free
Offer Extended Through December 31
>
> http://derailingfordummies.com/
>
> While "You are just being judgemental/You aren't responding in a balanced
> manner" isn't in there, there is some very good information on what
> "privilege" is, what derailing is, and how good people engage in it.
>
> Bronwen
>
> On Mon, Dec 19, 2011 at 11:07 AM, andrew docker<see2dream@...>wrote:
>
>> **
>>
>>
>> Hi Steve,
>>
>> I think it is always a mistake to react by being judgemental and with
>> anger Steve. You know little about me or my commitment to my beliefs, and
>> your judgementalism says a lot about you. It wasn't a very balanced
>> response was it? I'm not going to insult you by assuming I know what drives
>> your anger, so I think I will leave it there. I wonder if those who
>> commited the atrocities were as judgemental as you, and as sure as you seem
>> to be regarding other peoples qualities and motives?
>>
>> Andy
>>
>> ________________________________
>> From: yzermongol<yzermongol@...>
>> To: ShamanicWays@yahoogroups.com
>> Sent: Monday, 19 December 2011, 17:33
>>
>> Subject: Re: [Shamanic Ways] Fwd: FREE Despacho Kit: Buy 4 Kits Get 1 Free
>> Offer Extended Through December 31
>>
>>
>>
>> Andrew:
>>
>> --- In ShamanicWays@yahoogroups.com, andrew docker<see2dream@...>  wrote:
>>> Ok...you got me Steve! Seriously though that comment of mine was tongue
>> in cheek. I don't think I am insensitive, neither do I react dogmatically.
>> ***Most insensitive people are unaware of their insensitivity or they
>> would not act that way.
>>
>>> I am aware of the recent past and its atrocities, and the most powerful
>> feelings are obviously generated through actual memory.
>>
>> ***I disagree here. I am sure you have heard of some atrocities but
>> certainly not all. You have no idea what happened in Siberia. Also- they
>> are not all "in the past" but ongoing. If you *are* aware of the
>> atrocities- then more shame on you for blowing them off so easily.
>>
>> However, although I have the utmost sympathy with the victims, I refuse to
>> get myself into an unbalanced spin through allowing emotion to cloud my
>> perspective.
>>
>> ***Nice way to disconnect yourself from any responsibility for your
>> position.
>>
>> This series of posts seems to be more concerned with anger over the past,
>> and the past has gone. My concern is the future, and what we can build
>> within it.
>>
>> ***The past, present, and future are all one. You can not separate them.
>> Again, this is your tact to wash your hands of anything you don't want to
>> face. How will you build a future on disrespect?
>>
>> The persecution will go on, and even in my 'civilised' country, people are
>> still locked up or drugged for displaying what would be recognised as
>> 'shamanic' tendencies in truer cultures. The church still works to
>> marginalise non-believers, and the state backs them.
>> It is still going on Steve, and unfortunately there is no accepted ancient
>> cultural tradiiton here recognised enough to speak loudly against it.
>> ***Plenty of people from "ancient cultural tradition" have spoken up only
>> to be silenced by people like you who like to say "We are going to take
>> your spiritual traditions whether you like it or not- but be happy about it
>> because we are all working for a happy future together". I tell you this-
>> until there is *respect* given to indigenous cultures (which means to at
>> least listen to them about their concerns) there will be no holding hands
>> together in the future.
>>
>> By the way- I have been a strong supporter of those trying to reclaim
>> their ancestoral traditions- just ask the Heathen community. There is a
>> great amount of support and respect between the some of the Heathen and
>> Siberian shaman communities.
>> Steve
>>
>>> Andy
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> ________________________________
>>> From: Aaron<aaronreid19103@...>
>>> To: ShamanicWays@yahoogroups.com
>>> Sent: Monday, 19 December 2011, 16:47
>>> Subject: Re: [Shamanic Ways] Fwd: FREE Despacho Kit: Buy 4 Kits Get 1
>> Free Offer Extended Through December 31
>>> Steve … please re-read the posts to clarify who said what.  I said
>> none of those things in your second paragraph; I think you are lumping me
>> and Andy together.
>>> The only thing I agreed with Andy about is that Spiritual development of
>> any kind is good; I do NOT condone any of the things you discuss, but
>> simply find it unhealthy to hold on to anger over what others are doing, no
>> matter how "wrong".
>>> I don't expect it to be seen as a compliment and certainly don't expect
>> it to be accepted as the same.
>>> Aaron
>>> On Dec 19, 2011, at 10:59 AM, yzermongol wrote:
>>>
>>>> Aaron,
>>>>
>>>> While I agree that Christianity and Islam do convert far more than
>> Judaism, my point was that the concept of conversion is not completely
>> foreign. In any case, instead of just focussing on that- how about
>> responding to the meat of my post? I was trying to explain why indegenous
>> people *do* have a problem with the misappropriation of their culture and
>> ceremonies. They do not see it as a "compliment". The only reason that
>> white people wish they would see it as a compliment is so that they don't
>> have to feel guilty by profaning their religion.
>>>> To be honest, I am really shocked at some of your insensitive comments
>> on the subject. Things you said like indegenous people were "blaming the
>> terrible white usurpers" make you seem to others as if you are making light
>> of the atrocities that have occured. In Siberia, even in recent times
>> shamans have been killed for practicing their beliefs. They were taken up
>> in helicopters and thrown out to their deaths. This is too recent to have
>> "gotten over" by now. Your sense of entitlement is epic.
>>>> Steve
>>>>
>>>> --- In ShamanicWays@yahoogroups.com, Aaron<aaronreid19103@>  wrote:
>>>>> Hi Steve. I completely understand your point of view, so I'd like to
>> express my sincere distaste for lumping Judaism, with Islam and
>> Christianity … either by saying the Abrahamic faiths or using the term
>> Judeo-Christian. While I no longer consider myself a part of the Jewish
>> religion, it was my root spiritual base before expanding my consciousness
>> out of the realm of religion and my change of view when reaching the age of
>> 15 regarding the bible.
>>>>> The one specific difference that applies to your post is that
>> traditionally, conversion to Judaism is frowned upon; they definitely do
>> not seek converts or attempt to convert others, and those who seek out
>> becoming Jewish and asking for conversion must go through rigorous
>> education and examination before it will even be accepted (and then only by
>> some groups of Jews). Since Judaism itself has been watered down to several
>> sects as well, there may be easier methods of conversion among some
>> "reform" congregations, but these are not accepted by Traditionalists. The
>> only reason most Rabbaim "Jewish Clergy" would even consider conversion is
>> when a Jewish man insists on marrying a non-Jewish female; since Judaism is
>> decided by the Mother, it would be done for the reason of having the
>> children accepted as Jewish. There are still many Jewish traditionalists
>> that would not even consider allowing conversion or consider a "convert"
>> actually Jewish.
>>>>> Just some insight as many other faiths do not have any clue about
>> Traditional Judaism.
>>>>> I do not take any offense, so please do not take any of this post as
>> such. I simply wanted to state a point.
>>>>> Thanks,
>>>>> Aaron
>>>>>
>>>>> On Dec 18, 2011, at 8:21 PM, yzermongol wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> Hello Andrew,
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I wanted to respond to your post- just to try to give you an
>> indigenous perspective. The Abrahamic faiths (Christianity, Judaism, and
>> Islam) are all open to converts and sometimes even force people into
>> conversion. Allowing others to follow their belief system is normal for
>> their faith and is often encouraged. When a person is raised around faiths
>> like this, it is difficult to understand how other spiritual traditions
>> might not be as welcoming to converts or sharing their sacred traditions.
>>>>>> However, many indigenous people see their traditions as part of
>> their cultural and racial identity. There is no concept of conversion and
>> they would really be shocked and curious if someone approached them with
>> the idea. Furthermore, it can be a sore-spot for those who had their lands
>> appropriated and other atrocities done to their people. In their view,
>> enough has already been "taken" from them. "Borrowing ceremonies" often
>> falls into this catagory from their point of view.
>>>>>> It is difficult to clearly understand others that are raised with
>> a different world view. So although you might not be offended if people
>> tried out runes, you are coming from a different perspective than many
>> native people. Just food for thought.
>>>>>> --- In ShamanicWays@yahoogroups.com, andrew docker<see2dream@>
>> wrote:
>>>>>>> Hi Aaron,
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> In a sense that is what I am trying to get at, and obviously I
>> feel that your direct experiences in that area are different from mine-and
>> undoubtedly more knowledgeable. The 'despacho' thing is not the real thing
>> either-but does it matter?.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Some years ago I was involved in organising lectures on various
>> metaphysical subjects in Manchester, We had Warren Kenton speak twice, and
>> our private conversations were very memorable. There were many elders and
>> rabbis of that faith present, and what an amazing interplay of ideas and
>> theories-I will never forget it. My son, who was very young then still
>> talks about it.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> 'but rather take the stand that it doesn't matter because it's
>> simply not the same thing!' Thats exactly what I mean Aaron! Instead of
>> fooling around blaming those terrible white usurpers of indigenous
>> knowledge, why can't we celebrate the spreading of knowledge throughout the
>> world-knowledge that frees humanity from bondage, and lets the soul fly
>> free.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Are we on a spiritual quest, or wrapping ourselves up in base
>> mundane bickering? Why don't we take all the good and work on that. When I
>> talk to spirit, it never refuses to let me in,or ask me what language I
>> speak, it is universal. Should I ignore the teaching contacts that have
>> been with me for many years because they are not of my present geographical
>> location? Have I always manifested on earth in this location? No... I think
>> that we have to look way beyond the petty minor tensions and see the
>> universal picture-we are all One!
>>>>>>> How can we carry our work forward if we shackle ourselves with
>> chains of ignorance?
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Andrew
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> ________________________________
>>>>>>> From: Aaron<aaronreid19103@>
>>>>>>> To: ShamanicWays@yahoogroups.com
>>>>>>> Sent: Sunday, 18 December 2011, 22:53
>>>>>>> Subject: Re: [Shamanic Ways] Fwd: FREE Despacho Kit: Buy 4 Kits
>> Get 1 Free Offer Extended Through December 31
>>>>>>> Andrew,
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I'm in almost complete agreement, especially with your last
>> paragraph.
>>>>>>> I do have to say that there is one thing with which we have a
>> different experience; you wrote:
>>>>>>>> "It is similar to the adption of the Quabalah as a system of
>> knowledge by the west. However, those who celebrate it in its original form
>> that I know are pleased that it has been adopted as a system of
>> self-development, and claim no ownership as they see all higher knowledge
>> as being the divine right of humanity in general."
>>>>>>> I grew up in a traditionally Jewish environment and the
>> "Quabalah" being thrown around is definitely NOT respected among
>> traditional Hebrew scholars. While I will agree that they are more tolerant
>> than some and don't outwardly or publicly object to these practices, it is
>> because they believe the "Quabalah" that was made popular in the past
>> couple decades is just a watered down, untrue version of Kabbalah. Even my
>> father, who is a Hebrew scholar will not study Kabbalah as he doesn't even
>> feel he is someone who should delve into such teachings. So, the main
>> difference is that they don't hem and haw about their tradition being
>> stolen, but rather take the stand that it doesn't matter because it's
>> simply not the same thing.
>>>>>>> Blessings,
>>>>>>> Aaron
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> On Dec 18, 2011, at 2:55 PM, andrew docker wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> And therefore not to be taken so seriously then I would have
>>>>>>>> thought! It is similar to the adption of the Quabalah as a
>> system of
>>>>>>>> knowledge by the west. However, those who celebrate it in its
>> original
>>>>>>>> form that I know are pleased that it has been adopted as a
>> system of
>>>>>>>> self-development, and claim no ownership as they see all
>> higher
>>>>>>>> knowledge as being the divine right of humanity in general. I
>> really
>>>>>>>> don't see why the strong feelings here. If I collect items
>> available to
>>>>>>>> me locally for my workings (as I do) then that is essentially
>> the same
>>>>>>>> thing as she sells-and it is a common world-wide practice. If
>> I saw a
>>>>>>>> post on here from a person of that belief that criticised her
>> actions
>>>>>>>> then fair enough-but I don't think I have yet.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> If I minded people making runesets and calling them runes even
>> though they are not of my culture or beliefs, then I would be kept very
>> busy
>>>>>>>> complaining. I have spoken to wise people of other cultures to
>> myself
>>>>>>>> who feel strongly that their knowledge can be the key to
>> humanities
>>>>>>>> evolution and understanding (that is why they teach), and I
>> have not
>>>>>>>> heard these concerns mentioned.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> I think I would rather look outwards at the common
>> similarities amongst
>>>>>>>> those who work for good than pick over words. The world in a
>> sense is
>>>>>>>> shrinking and to me anything (like this even) that provokes
>> thought in
>>>>>>>> people and causes them to explore for themselves has to be
>> good. Ok-she
>>>>>>>> may make a little money-but if it leads to a few people
>> opening their
>>>>>>>> perceptions then for one I don't really care!
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Andrew
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> ________________________________
>>>>>>>> From: Branwyn ni
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> ________________________________
>>>>>>>> From: Branwyn ni Druaidh<welshwmn3@>
>>>>>>>> To: ShamanicWays@yahoogroups.com
>>>>>>>> Sent: Sunday, 18 December 2011, 17:29
>>>>>>>> Subject: Re: [Shamanic Ways] Fwd: FREE Despacho Kit: Buy 4
>> Kits Get 1 Free Offer Extended Through December 31
>>>>>>>> "There is no religion associated with prayer bundles, they're
>> compatible
>>>>>>>> with all beliefs."
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> That is patently untrue. The despachos are part of
>>>>>>>> the indigenous Incan/Inkan religious practices. The religion
>> is very
>>>>>>>> strong in in the worship/reverence of the Directions, the
>> Mountains, Nature
>>>>>>>> et al. To say that the despachos have no religious association
>> is to say
>>>>>>>> that the Pipe Ceremony has no religious association, that the
>> Blessing Way
>>>>>>>> has no religious association, that the Roman Catholic "Last
>> Rights" have no
>>>>>>>> religious association.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> This appears to be another example of a white person taking
>> what they want
>>>>>>>> of the teachings of the indigenous people, dropping what they
>> don't want,
>>>>>>>> and selling and profiting from things they don't truly
>> understand.
>>>>>>>> *sighs*
>>>>>>>> Bronwen
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> On Sun, Dec 18, 2011 at 2:02 AM, andrew docker<see2dream@
>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>>> **
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> 'To bring about change in accordance with the will'. That is
>> the accepted
>>>>>>>>> definition of magical practice.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> I don't see anything strange about this. Isn't it similar to
>> people
>>>>>>>>> charging money for courses etc? I feel that if it opens
>> peoples eyes to the
>>>>>>>>> potential of changing their lives for the better then how
>> can it be strange
>>>>>>>>> or different from buying a book?
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Andy
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> ________________________________
>>>>>>>>> From: Nick Noble Wolf<true_dog@>
>>>>>>>>> To: Shamanic Ways<ShamanicWays@yahoogroups.com>
>>>>>>>>> Sent: Friday, 16 December 2011, 13:46
>>>>>>>>> Subject: [Shamanic Ways] Fwd: FREE Despacho Kit: Buy 4 Kits
>> Get 1 Free
>>>>>>>>> Offer Extended Through December 31
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> I just received the following spam. I was pretty weirded
>> out. Then I
>>>>>>>>> went to her site (www.prayerbundles.com<
>> http://www.prayerbundles.com>).
>>>>>>>>> Now I am speechless.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> What do you think?
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Blessings,
>>>>>>>>> ~Nick
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> -------- Original Message --------
>>>>>>>>> Subject: FREE Despacho Kit: Buy 4 Kits Get 1 Free Offer
>> Extended
>>>>>>>>> Through December 31
>>>>>>>>> Date: Wed, 14 Dec 2011 17:12:11 -0800
>>>>>>>>> From: Kerri Colegrove<prayerbundles@>
>>>>>>>>> To: undisclosed-recipients:;
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Seasons Greetings,
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> FREE Despacho Kits are very popular this holiday season with
>> the *Buy 4
>>>>>>>>> Kits Get 1 Free* Holiday Sale -- so we've extended this sale
>> to Dec 31.
>>>>>>>>> In addition to personal use, offering despacho ceremonies to
>> your
>>>>>>>>> community is a great way to build your practice. Here's what
>> an
>>>>>>>>> Australian shamanic practitioner wrote...
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> "I have just started offering Despacho Ceremonies within my
>>>>>>>>> business - and I have to say, my clients LOVE them. How
>>>>>>>>> blessed we are for this training AND how blessed I am to
>>>>>>>>> know you and your books! xoxoxo"
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> *To take advantage of the Buy 4 Kits Get 1 Free sale call
>> (310) 237-2421
>>>>>>>>> <tel:%28310%29%20237-2421>  or email: prayerbundles@
>>>>>>>>> <mailto:prayerbundles@>.* Let us know what kits you'd like
>> and
>>>>>>>>> we'll send you an invoice and the kits will follow.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> We have over a dozen despacho kits now in stock, each with
>> very unique
>>>>>>>>> and specific action, including:
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> *Ayni Abundance Kit* -- Put your entire New Year's wish list
>> into this
>>>>>>>>> one, then make one monthly to keep big blessings flowing
>>>>>>>>> to you all year.
>>>>>>>>> *Aya Death Kit -- *To celebrate traditional passing or _for
>> those
>>>>>>>>> wanting a "new life"_, these kits make an extra beautiful
>> despacho.
>>>>>>>>> *Cuti (Protection) Kit* -- _Gets rid of toxic energy_ others
>> have sent
>>>>>>>>> to you (usually unwittingly) via anger, resentment, envy,
>> etc.,
>>>>>>>>> a must for everyone at least once.
>>>>>>>>> *Wiska (Freedom) Kit* -- _Unsticks energy vampires and
>> such_, a must for
>>>>>>>>> everyone at least once. Fun to make.
>>>>>>>>> *House Cleanse Kit* - Combine this one and the two above,
>> wiska and
>>>>>>>>> cuti, for a *Giant Triple Cleanse* to start the New Year off
>>>>>>>>> squeaky clean energetically. _Great
>>>>>>>>> help for selling a house_.
>>>>>>>>> *Feminine Healing Kit* - Transforms emotional trauma into
>> strength,
>>>>>>>>> _helps men get in better touch with their feelings_.
>>>>>>>>> *Masculine Healing Kit* - Gals, empowers you by empowering
>> your inner
>>>>>>>>> masculine. Guys, great for your career.
>>>>>>>>> *Wedding Celebration Kit* -- Brings extra blessings to
>> newlyweds.
>>>>>>>>> *Birth Celebration Kit* -- Brings extra blessings to newborn
>> babes.
>>>>>>>>> *New Path Kit *-- To support a big direction change in life.
>>>>>>>>> *Money Kit* -- Special action to attract more money.
>>>>>>>>> *Mastery of Time Kit* -- People who make this one have
>> discovered extra
>>>>>>>>> time, gets you in right relationship with time so you
>>>>>>>>> have _plenty of time for everything_!
>>>>>>>>> *Bee Kit* -- Honors the energetic archetype of the bee to
>> help you
>>>>>>>>> foster more community and productivity -- great for business.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> The Ayni Kit is $35. All other kits are $37 each. Shipping
>> for 5 kits is
>>>>>>>>> $20.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> To*Buy 4 Kits Get 1 Free, call (310) 237-2421
>> <tel:%28310%29%20237-2421>
>>>>>>>>> or email: prayerbundles@<mailto:prayerbundles@>.*
>>>>>>>>> Give us a list of the kits you want so we can send you an
>> invoice and
>>>>>>>>> then the kits. We will confirm your order within 24 hours.
>> If you have
>>>>>>>>> any questions please call.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Thank you to all our customers and friends for making 2011
>> such a great
>>>>>>>>> year for us. We look forward to helping make 2012 a great
>> year for you.
>>>>>>>>> --
>>>>>>>>> Kerri Colegrove
>>>>>>>>> Prayer Bundles
>>>>>>>>> (310) 237-2421<tel:%28310%29%20237-2421>
>>>>>>>>> www.prayerbundles.com<http://www.prayerbundles.com>
>>>>>>>>> Ignite Your Life!
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> To receive no more emails from Prayer Bundles, reply to this
>> email with
>>>>>>>>> the message "unsubscribe." Thank you.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> --
>>>>>>>> Per pale argent and purpure, two phoenixes counterchanged
>> sable and argent
>>>>>>>> each rising from flames proper.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> "It is sometimes the most fragile things that have the power
>> to endure and
>>>>>>>> become sources of strength."
>>>>>>>> - May Sarton
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> "Only a life lived in the service to others is worth living."-
>> Albert
>>>>>>>> Einstein
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> "Out of clutter, find Simplicity. From discord, find Harmony.
>> In the middle
>>>>>>>> of difficulty lies opportunity." - Albert Einstein
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> "And the day came when the risk to remain tight in a bud was
>> more painful
>>>>>>>> than the risk it took to blossom." - Anais Nin
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> "Go confidently in the direction of your dreams. Live the life
>> you have
>>>>>>>> imagined." - Henry David Thoreau
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> ------------------------------------
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Note that all attachments are removed to minimize the possible
>> spread of viruses.Yahoo! Groups Links
>>>>>>>> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> ------------------------------------
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Note that all attachments are removed to minimize the possible
>> spread of viruses.Yahoo! Groups Links
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> ------------------------------------
>>>
>>> Note that all attachments are removed to minimize the possible spread of
>> viruses.Yahoo! Groups Links
>>>
>>>
>>> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>>>
>> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>>
>>
>>
>
>


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Thank you, Bronwen. Love the link and have saved it.
Steve

--- In ShamanicWays@yahoogroups.com, Branwyn ni Druaidh <welshwmn3@...> wrote:
>
> http://derailingfordummies.com/
>
> While "You are just being judgemental/You aren't responding in a balanced
> manner" isn't in there, there is some very good information on what
> "privilege" is, what derailing is, and how good people engage in it.
>
> Bronwen
>
> On Mon, Dec 19, 2011 at 11:07 AM, andrew docker <see2dream@...>wrote:
>
> > **
> >
> >
> > Hi Steve,
> >
> > I think it is always a mistake to react by being judgemental and with
> > anger Steve. You know little about me or my commitment to my beliefs, and
> > your judgementalism says a lot about you. It wasn't a very balanced
> > response was it? I'm not going to insult you by assuming I know what drives
> > your anger, so I think I will leave it there. I wonder if those who
> > commited the atrocities were as judgemental as you, and as sure as you seem
> > to be regarding other peoples qualities and motives?
> >
> > Andy
> >
> > ________________________________
> > From: yzermongol <yzermongol@...>
> > To: ShamanicWays@yahoogroups.com
> > Sent: Monday, 19 December 2011, 17:33
> >
> > Subject: Re: [Shamanic Ways] Fwd: FREE Despacho Kit: Buy 4 Kits Get 1 Free
> > Offer Extended Through December 31
> >
> >
> >
> > Andrew:
> >
> > --- In ShamanicWays@yahoogroups.com, andrew docker <see2dream@> wrote:
> > >
> > > Ok...you got me Steve! Seriously though that comment of mine was tongue
> > in cheek. I don't think I am insensitive, neither do I react dogmatically.
> > >
> >
> > ***Most insensitive people are unaware of their insensitivity or they
> > would not act that way.
> >
> > > I am aware of the recent past and its atrocities, and the most powerful
> > feelings are obviously generated through actual memory.
> >
> > ***I disagree here. I am sure you have heard of some atrocities but
> > certainly not all. You have no idea what happened in Siberia. Also- they
> > are not all "in the past" but ongoing. If you *are* aware of the
> > atrocities- then more shame on you for blowing them off so easily.
> >
> > However, although I have the utmost sympathy with the victims, I refuse to
> > get myself into an unbalanced spin through allowing emotion to cloud my
> > perspective.
> >
> > ***Nice way to disconnect yourself from any responsibility for your
> > position.
> >
> > This series of posts seems to be more concerned with anger over the past,
> > and the past has gone. My concern is the future, and what we can build
> > within it.
> >
> > ***The past, present, and future are all one. You can not separate them.
> > Again, this is your tact to wash your hands of anything you don't want to
> > face. How will you build a future on disrespect?
> >
> > The persecution will go on, and even in my 'civilised' country, people are
> > still locked up or drugged for displaying what would be recognised as
> > 'shamanic' tendencies in truer cultures. The church still works to
> > marginalise non-believers, and the state backs them.
> > It is still going on Steve, and unfortunately there is no accepted ancient
> > cultural tradiiton here recognised enough to speak loudly against it.
> > >
> >
> > ***Plenty of people from "ancient cultural tradition" have spoken up only
> > to be silenced by people like you who like to say "We are going to take
> > your spiritual traditions whether you like it or not- but be happy about it
> > because we are all working for a happy future together". I tell you this-
> > until there is *respect* given to indigenous cultures (which means to at
> > least listen to them about their concerns) there will be no holding hands
> > together in the future.
> >
> > By the way- I have been a strong supporter of those trying to reclaim
> > their ancestoral traditions- just ask the Heathen community. There is a
> > great amount of support and respect between the some of the Heathen and
> > Siberian shaman communities.
> > Steve
> >
> > > Andy
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > ________________________________
> > > From: Aaron <aaronreid19103@>
> > > To: ShamanicWays@yahoogroups.com
> > > Sent: Monday, 19 December 2011, 16:47
> > > Subject: Re: [Shamanic Ways] Fwd: FREE Despacho Kit: Buy 4 Kits Get 1
> > Free Offer Extended Through December 31
> > >
> > > Steve … please re-read the posts to clarify who said what.  I said
> > none of those things in your second paragraph; I think you are lumping me
> > and Andy together.
> > > The only thing I agreed with Andy about is that Spiritual development of
> > any kind is good; I do NOT condone any of the things you discuss, but
> > simply find it unhealthy to hold on to anger over what others are doing, no
> > matter how "wrong".
> > > I don't expect it to be seen as a compliment and certainly don't expect
> > it to be accepted as the same.
> > > Aaron
> > > On Dec 19, 2011, at 10:59 AM, yzermongol wrote:
> > >
> > > > Aaron,
> > > >
> > > > While I agree that Christianity and Islam do convert far more than
> > Judaism, my point was that the concept of conversion is not completely
> > foreign. In any case, instead of just focussing on that- how about
> > responding to the meat of my post? I was trying to explain why indegenous
> > people *do* have a problem with the misappropriation of their culture and
> > ceremonies. They do not see it as a "compliment". The only reason that
> > white people wish they would see it as a compliment is so that they don't
> > have to feel guilty by profaning their religion.
> > > > To be honest, I am really shocked at some of your insensitive comments
> > on the subject. Things you said like indegenous people were "blaming the
> > terrible white usurpers" make you seem to others as if you are making light
> > of the atrocities that have occured. In Siberia, even in recent times
> > shamans have been killed for practicing their beliefs. They were taken up
> > in helicopters and thrown out to their deaths. This is too recent to have
> > "gotten over" by now. Your sense of entitlement is epic.
> > > > Steve
> > > >
> > > > --- In ShamanicWays@yahoogroups.com, Aaron <aaronreid19103@> wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > > Hi Steve. I completely understand your point of view, so I'd like to
> > express my sincere distaste for lumping Judaism, with Islam and
> > Christianity … either by saying the Abrahamic faiths or using the term
> > Judeo-Christian. While I no longer consider myself a part of the Jewish
> > religion, it was my root spiritual base before expanding my consciousness
> > out of the realm of religion and my change of view when reaching the age of
> > 15 regarding the bible.
> > > > >
> > > > > The one specific difference that applies to your post is that
> > traditionally, conversion to Judaism is frowned upon; they definitely do
> > not seek converts or attempt to convert others, and those who seek out
> > becoming Jewish and asking for conversion must go through rigorous
> > education and examination before it will even be accepted (and then only by
> > some groups of Jews). Since Judaism itself has been watered down to several
> > sects as well, there may be easier methods of conversion among some
> > "reform" congregations, but these are not accepted by Traditionalists. The
> > only reason most Rabbaim "Jewish Clergy" would even consider conversion is
> > when a Jewish man insists on marrying a non-Jewish female; since Judaism is
> > decided by the Mother, it would be done for the reason of having the
> > children accepted as Jewish. There are still many Jewish traditionalists
> > that would not even consider allowing conversion or consider a "convert"
> > actually Jewish.
> > > > >
> > > > > Just some insight as many other faiths do not have any clue about
> > Traditional Judaism.
> > > > > I do not take any offense, so please do not take any of this post as
> > such. I simply wanted to state a point.
> > > > > Thanks,
> > > > > Aaron
> > > > >
> > > > > On Dec 18, 2011, at 8:21 PM, yzermongol wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > > > Hello Andrew,
> > > > > >
> > > > > > I wanted to respond to your post- just to try to give you an
> > indigenous perspective. The Abrahamic faiths (Christianity, Judaism, and
> > Islam) are all open to converts and sometimes even force people into
> > conversion. Allowing others to follow their belief system is normal for
> > their faith and is often encouraged. When a person is raised around faiths
> > like this, it is difficult to understand how other spiritual traditions
> > might not be as welcoming to converts or sharing their sacred traditions.
> > > > > > However, many indigenous people see their traditions as part of
> > their cultural and racial identity. There is no concept of conversion and
> > they would really be shocked and curious if someone approached them with
> > the idea. Furthermore, it can be a sore-spot for those who had their lands
> > appropriated and other atrocities done to their people. In their view,
> > enough has already been "taken" from them. "Borrowing ceremonies" often
> > falls into this catagory from their point of view.
> > > > > > It is difficult to clearly understand others that are raised with
> > a different world view. So although you might not be offended if people
> > tried out runes, you are coming from a different perspective than many
> > native people. Just food for thought.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > --- In ShamanicWays@yahoogroups.com, andrew docker <see2dream@>
> > wrote:
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Hi Aaron,
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > In a sense that is what I am trying to get at, and obviously I
> > feel that your direct experiences in that area are different from mine-and
> > undoubtedly more knowledgeable. The 'despacho' thing is not the real thing
> > either-but does it matter?.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Some years ago I was involved in organising lectures on various
> > metaphysical subjects in Manchester, We had Warren Kenton speak twice, and
> > our private conversations were very memorable. There were many elders and
> > rabbis of that faith present, and what an amazing interplay of ideas and
> > theories-I will never forget it. My son, who was very young then still
> > talks about it.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > 'but rather take the stand that it doesn't matter because it's
> > simply not the same thing!' Thats exactly what I mean Aaron! Instead of
> > fooling around blaming those terrible white usurpers of indigenous
> > knowledge, why can't we celebrate the spreading of knowledge throughout the
> > world-knowledge that frees humanity from bondage, and lets the soul fly
> > free.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Are we on a spiritual quest, or wrapping ourselves up in base
> > mundane bickering? Why don't we take all the good and work on that. When I
> > talk to spirit, it never refuses to let me in,or ask me what language I
> > speak, it is universal. Should I ignore the teaching contacts that have
> > been with me for many years because they are not of my present geographical
> > location? Have I always manifested on earth in this location? No... I think
> > that we have to look way beyond the petty minor tensions and see the
> > universal picture-we are all One!
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > How can we carry our work forward if we shackle ourselves with
> > chains of ignorance?
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Andrew
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > ________________________________
> > > > > > > From: Aaron <aaronreid19103@>
> > > > > > > To: ShamanicWays@yahoogroups.com
> > > > > > > Sent: Sunday, 18 December 2011, 22:53
> > > > > > > Subject: Re: [Shamanic Ways] Fwd: FREE Despacho Kit: Buy 4 Kits
> > Get 1 Free Offer Extended Through December 31
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Andrew,
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > I'm in almost complete agreement, especially with your last
> > paragraph.
> > > > > > > I do have to say that there is one thing with which we have a
> > different experience; you wrote:
> > > > > > > > "It is similar to the adption of the Quabalah as a system of
> > knowledge by the west. However, those who celebrate it in its original form
> > that I know are pleased that it has been adopted as a system of
> > self-development, and claim no ownership as they see all higher knowledge
> > as being the divine right of humanity in general."
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > I grew up in a traditionally Jewish environment and the
> > "Quabalah" being thrown around is definitely NOT respected among
> > traditional Hebrew scholars. While I will agree that they are more tolerant
> > than some and don't outwardly or publicly object to these practices, it is
> > because they believe the "Quabalah" that was made popular in the past
> > couple decades is just a watered down, untrue version of Kabbalah. Even my
> > father, who is a Hebrew scholar will not study Kabbalah as he doesn't even
> > feel he is someone who should delve into such teachings. So, the main
> > difference is that they don't hem and haw about their tradition being
> > stolen, but rather take the stand that it doesn't matter because it's
> > simply not the same thing.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Blessings,
> > > > > > > Aaron
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > On Dec 18, 2011, at 2:55 PM, andrew docker wrote:
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > And therefore not to be taken so seriously then I would have
> > > > > > > > thought! It is similar to the adption of the Quabalah as a
> > system of
> > > > > > > > knowledge by the west. However, those who celebrate it in its
> > original
> > > > > > > > form that I know are pleased that it has been adopted as a
> > system of
> > > > > > > > self-development, and claim no ownership as they see all
> > higher
> > > > > > > > knowledge as being the divine right of humanity in general. I
> > really
> > > > > > > > don't see why the strong feelings here. If I collect items
> > available to
> > > > > > > > me locally for my workings (as I do) then that is essentially
> > the same
> > > > > > > > thing as she sells-and it is a common world-wide practice. If
> > I saw a
> > > > > > > > post on here from a person of that belief that criticised her
> > actions
> > > > > > > > then fair enough-but I don't think I have yet.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > If I minded people making runesets and calling them runes even
> > though they are not of my culture or beliefs, then I would be kept very
> > busy
> > > > > > > > complaining. I have spoken to wise people of other cultures to
> > myself
> > > > > > > > who feel strongly that their knowledge can be the key to
> > humanities
> > > > > > > > evolution and understanding (that is why they teach), and I
> > have not
> > > > > > > > heard these concerns mentioned.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > I think I would rather look outwards at the common
> > similarities amongst
> > > > > > > > those who work for good than pick over words. The world in a
> > sense is
> > > > > > > > shrinking and to me anything (like this even) that provokes
> > thought in
> > > > > > > > people and causes them to explore for themselves has to be
> > good. Ok-she
> > > > > > > > may make a little money-but if it leads to a few people
> > opening their
> > > > > > > > perceptions then for one I don't really care!
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > Andrew
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > ________________________________
> > > > > > > > From: Branwyn ni
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > ________________________________
> > > > > > > > From: Branwyn ni Druaidh <welshwmn3@>
> > > > > > > > To: ShamanicWays@yahoogroups.com
> > > > > > > > Sent: Sunday, 18 December 2011, 17:29
> > > > > > > > Subject: Re: [Shamanic Ways] Fwd: FREE Despacho Kit: Buy 4
> > Kits Get 1 Free Offer Extended Through December 31
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > "There is no religion associated with prayer bundles, they're
> > compatible
> > > > > > > > with all beliefs."
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > That is patently untrue. The despachos are part of
> > > > > > > > the indigenous Incan/Inkan religious practices. The religion
> > is very
> > > > > > > > strong in in the worship/reverence of the Directions, the
> > Mountains, Nature
> > > > > > > > et al. To say that the despachos have no religious association
> > is to say
> > > > > > > > that the Pipe Ceremony has no religious association, that the
> > Blessing Way
> > > > > > > > has no religious association, that the Roman Catholic "Last
> > Rights" have no
> > > > > > > > religious association.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > This appears to be another example of a white person taking
> > what they want
> > > > > > > > of the teachings of the indigenous people, dropping what they
> > don't want,
> > > > > > > > and selling and profiting from things they don't truly
> > understand.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > *sighs*
> > > > > > > > Bronwen
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > On Sun, Dec 18, 2011 at 2:02 AM, andrew docker <see2dream@
> > >wrote:
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > **
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > 'To bring about change in accordance with the will'. That is
> > the accepted
> > > > > > > > > definition of magical practice.
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > I don't see anything strange about this. Isn't it similar to
> > people
> > > > > > > > > charging money for courses etc? I feel that if it opens
> > peoples eyes to the
> > > > > > > > > potential of changing their lives for the better then how
> > can it be strange
> > > > > > > > > or different from buying a book?
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > Andy
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > ________________________________
> > > > > > > > > From: Nick Noble Wolf <true_dog@>
> > > > > > > > > To: Shamanic Ways <ShamanicWays@yahoogroups.com>
> > > > > > > > > Sent: Friday, 16 December 2011, 13:46
> > > > > > > > > Subject: [Shamanic Ways] Fwd: FREE Despacho Kit: Buy 4 Kits
> > Get 1 Free
> > > > > > > > > Offer Extended Through December 31
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > I just received the following spam. I was pretty weirded
> > out. Then I
> > > > > > > > > went to her site (www.prayerbundles.com <
> > http://www.prayerbundles.com>).
> > > > > > > > > Now I am speechless.
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > What do you think?
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > Blessings,
> > > > > > > > > ~Nick
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > -------- Original Message --------
> > > > > > > > > Subject: FREE Despacho Kit: Buy 4 Kits Get 1 Free Offer
> > Extended
> > > > > > > > > Through December 31
> > > > > > > > > Date: Wed, 14 Dec 2011 17:12:11 -0800
> > > > > > > > > From: Kerri Colegrove <prayerbundles@>
> > > > > > > > > To: undisclosed-recipients:;
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > Seasons Greetings,
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > FREE Despacho Kits are very popular this holiday season with
> > the *Buy 4
> > > > > > > > > Kits Get 1 Free* Holiday Sale -- so we've extended this sale
> > to Dec 31.
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > In addition to personal use, offering despacho ceremonies to
> > your
> > > > > > > > > community is a great way to build your practice. Here's what
> > an
> > > > > > > > > Australian shamanic practitioner wrote...
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > "I have just started offering Despacho Ceremonies within my
> > > > > > > > > business - and I have to say, my clients LOVE them. How
> > > > > > > > > blessed we are for this training AND how blessed I am to
> > > > > > > > > know you and your books! xoxoxo"
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > *To take advantage of the Buy 4 Kits Get 1 Free sale call
> > (310) 237-2421
> > > > > > > > > <tel:%28310%29%20237-2421> or email: prayerbundles@
> > > > > > > > > <mailto:prayerbundles@>.* Let us know what kits you'd like
> > and
> > > > > > > > > we'll send you an invoice and the kits will follow.
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > We have over a dozen despacho kits now in stock, each with
> > very unique
> > > > > > > > > and specific action, including:
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > *Ayni Abundance Kit* -- Put your entire New Year's wish list
> > into this
> > > > > > > > > one, then make one monthly to keep big blessings flowing
> > > > > > > > > to you all year.
> > > > > > > > > *Aya Death Kit -- *To celebrate traditional passing or _for
> > those
> > > > > > > > > wanting a "new life"_, these kits make an extra beautiful
> > despacho.
> > > > > > > > > *Cuti (Protection) Kit* -- _Gets rid of toxic energy_ others
> > have sent
> > > > > > > > > to you (usually unwittingly) via anger, resentment, envy,
> > etc.,
> > > > > > > > > a must for everyone at least once.
> > > > > > > > > *Wiska (Freedom) Kit* -- _Unsticks energy vampires and
> > such_, a must for
> > > > > > > > > everyone at least once. Fun to make.
> > > > > > > > > *House Cleanse Kit* - Combine this one and the two above,
> > wiska and
> > > > > > > > > cuti, for a *Giant Triple Cleanse* to start the New Year off
> > > > > > > > > squeaky clean energetically. _Great
> > > > > > > > > help for selling a house_.
> > > > > > > > > *Feminine Healing Kit* - Transforms emotional trauma into
> > strength,
> > > > > > > > > _helps men get in better touch with their feelings_.
> > > > > > > > > *Masculine Healing Kit* - Gals, empowers you by empowering
> > your inner
> > > > > > > > > masculine. Guys, great for your career.
> > > > > > > > > *Wedding Celebration Kit* -- Brings extra blessings to
> > newlyweds.
> > > > > > > > > *Birth Celebration Kit* -- Brings extra blessings to newborn
> > babes.
> > > > > > > > > *New Path Kit *-- To support a big direction change in life.
> > > > > > > > > *Money Kit* -- Special action to attract more money.
> > > > > > > > > *Mastery of Time Kit* -- People who make this one have
> > discovered extra
> > > > > > > > > time, gets you in right relationship with time so you
> > > > > > > > > have _plenty of time for everything_!
> > > > > > > > > *Bee Kit* -- Honors the energetic archetype of the bee to
> > help you
> > > > > > > > > foster more community and productivity -- great for business.
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > The Ayni Kit is $35. All other kits are $37 each. Shipping
> > for 5 kits is
> > > > > > > > > $20.
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > To*Buy 4 Kits Get 1 Free, call (310) 237-2421
> > <tel:%28310%29%20237-2421>
> > > > > > > > > or email: prayerbundles@ <mailto:prayerbundles@>.*
> > > > > > > > > Give us a list of the kits you want so we can send you an
> > invoice and
> > > > > > > > > then the kits. We will confirm your order within 24 hours.
> > If you have
> > > > > > > > > any questions please call.
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > Thank you to all our customers and friends for making 2011
> > such a great
> > > > > > > > > year for us. We look forward to helping make 2012 a great
> > year for you.
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > --
> > > > > > > > > Kerri Colegrove
> > > > > > > > > Prayer Bundles
> > > > > > > > > (310) 237-2421 <tel:%28310%29%20237-2421>
> > > > > > > > > www.prayerbundles.com <http://www.prayerbundles.com>
> > > > > > > > > Ignite Your Life!
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > To receive no more emails from Prayer Bundles, reply to this
> > email with
> > > > > > > > > the message "unsubscribe." Thank you.
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > --
> > > > > > > > Per pale argent and purpure, two phoenixes counterchanged
> > sable and argent
> > > > > > > > each rising from flames proper.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > "It is sometimes the most fragile things that have the power
> > to endure and
> > > > > > > > become sources of strength."
> > > > > > > > - May Sarton
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > "Only a life lived in the service to others is worth living."-
> > Albert
> > > > > > > > Einstein
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > "Out of clutter, find Simplicity. From discord, find Harmony.
> > In the middle
> > > > > > > > of difficulty lies opportunity." - Albert Einstein
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > "And the day came when the risk to remain tight in a bud was
> > more painful
> > > > > > > > than the risk it took to blossom." - Anais Nin
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > "Go confidently in the direction of your dreams. Live the life
> > you have
> > > > > > > > imagined." - Henry David Thoreau
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > ------------------------------------
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > Note that all attachments are removed to minimize the possible
> > spread of viruses.Yahoo! Groups Links
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > ------------------------------------
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Note that all attachments are removed to minimize the possible
> > spread of viruses.Yahoo! Groups Links
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> > > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> > > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > ------------------------------------
> > >
> > > Note that all attachments are removed to minimize the possible spread of
> > viruses.Yahoo! Groups Links
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> > >
> >
> > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> >
> >
> >
>
>
>
> --
> Per pale argent and purpure, two phoenixes counterchanged sable and argent
> each rising from flames proper.
>
> "It is sometimes the most fragile things that have the power to endure and
> become sources of strength."
> - May Sarton
>
> "Only a life lived in the service to others is worth living."- Albert
> Einstein
>
> "Out of clutter, find Simplicity. From discord, find Harmony. In the middle
> of difficulty lies opportunity." - Albert Einstein
>
> "And the day came when the risk to remain tight in a bud was more painful
> than the risk it took to blossom." - Anais Nin
>
> "Go confidently in the direction of your dreams. Live the life you have
> imagined." - Henry David Thoreau
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>

The Winter Solstice is upon us today. This is a special time of
beginnings, and for me perhaps the most holy time of the year. The
Winter Solstice is the time when the old year ends and all that it
brought is left behind as we begin the journey into the new year.

On the Winter Solstice, the Sun Father will have traveled the furthest
south, making that day the shortest of the year. The longest night is
the one following the solstice; the day after solstice is just a little
bit longer as he begins his return. (For example, December 22 is
generally considered the solstice this year. That day will be the
shortest day of the year. That evening until the next morning will be
the longest night.)

To those of us in the northern hemisphere, we see and feel the Sun
Father at his weakest on the solstice. Therefore, we men care-take him
on the night of the solstice to ensure his return. Men go into the
fields or their back yards or gardens that afternoon and make a fire
which might hold his spirit in honor and solace. We then watch over his
spirit throughout this longest night ensuring that he who gives us so
much does in fact return the next day. On that following sun-up, we send
that which we have honoured and protected all the night long back into
the sky. We know within our deepest self---within our soul---that if we
do not do this honor, that he will withdraw from us, perhaps never to
return. In days long ago, people might gather, men and women, around the
sacred fire which has been created for this honouring and care-taking,
the men feeding him throughout the night and the women ensuring that
they do. Then in the morning, when his spirit has returned to the sky,
the people would rekindle their hearth fires in celebration of his
renewed spirit.

In this day and age I receive questions as to how one might caretake our
Sun Father with no place for a fire within one's home. To you, I remind
that First Shaman who taught us these things as a gift from Creator,
never said that the fire for this honouring need be large. An oil lamp
or even a candle is sufficient, for it is the Sun Father's spirit, his
essence, that we take responsibility for, and his spirit, while able to
encompass the whole of the Earth Mother and all her peoples, also lives
within all fire. So, before the sun sets on solstice, kindle a small
fire calling the Sun into that fire. Light your candle or lamp from that
fire that you might take care of it during this sacred night.

After First Shaman had come to the people bringing the Ways to assist
each person in finding and fulfilling their own unique path of return to
Grandfather Fire/Creator, after he had taught these Ways to the people,
he went into the heavens where we can see him today as the Eagle of the
Night or north star. There he stands, ready to be of assistance to all
people. It is upon the night of the Winter Solstice that First Shaman's
spirit returns to the people, bestowing spiritual gifts upon all, that
our new year might be one of joy, compassion and growth. This return
reminds us of the Give-Away, that this coming of the new year is a time
to consider our friends, family and all people as we celebrate through
giving something from our heart.

On behalf of the new year which follows the Winter Solstice, I suggest
that each person reflect during the night on that which they have
created during the past year. Leave behind that which does not serve you
and carry forth that which does into the new year, that these good
things might grow and blossom into your life throughout the year.
Celebrate the gifts you have, those you receive and the good thing you
have done on behalf of our Father the Sun.

Blessings and Happy new year!
~Nick


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Thank you.  That was a beautiful teaching.

Bronwen

On Thu, Dec 22, 2011 at 6:06 AM, Nick Noble Wolf <true_dog@...>wrote:

> **
>
>
> The Winter Solstice is upon us today. This is a special time of
> beginnings, and for me perhaps the most holy time of the year. The
> Winter Solstice is the time when the old year ends and all that it
> brought is left behind as we begin the journey into the new year.
>
> On the Winter Solstice, the Sun Father will have traveled the furthest
> south, making that day the shortest of the year. The longest night is
> the one following the solstice; the day after solstice is just a little
> bit longer as he begins his return. (For example, December 22 is
> generally considered the solstice this year. That day will be the
> shortest day of the year. That evening until the next morning will be
> the longest night.)
>
> To those of us in the northern hemisphere, we see and feel the Sun
> Father at his weakest on the solstice. Therefore, we men care-take him
> on the night of the solstice to ensure his return. Men go into the
> fields or their back yards or gardens that afternoon and make a fire
> which might hold his spirit in honor and solace. We then watch over his
> spirit throughout this longest night ensuring that he who gives us so
> much does in fact return the next day. On that following sun-up, we send
> that which we have honoured and protected all the night long back into
> the sky. We know within our deepest self---within our soul---that if we
> do not do this honor, that he will withdraw from us, perhaps never to
> return. In days long ago, people might gather, men and women, around the
> sacred fire which has been created for this honouring and care-taking,
> the men feeding him throughout the night and the women ensuring that
> they do. Then in the morning, when his spirit has returned to the sky,
> the people would rekindle their hearth fires in celebration of his
> renewed spirit.
>
> In this day and age I receive questions as to how one might caretake our
> Sun Father with no place for a fire within one's home. To you, I remind
> that First Shaman who taught us these things as a gift from Creator,
> never said that the fire for this honouring need be large. An oil lamp
> or even a candle is sufficient, for it is the Sun Father's spirit, his
> essence, that we take responsibility for, and his spirit, while able to
> encompass the whole of the Earth Mother and all her peoples, also lives
> within all fire. So, before the sun sets on solstice, kindle a small
> fire calling the Sun into that fire. Light your candle or lamp from that
> fire that you might take care of it during this sacred night.
>
> After First Shaman had come to the people bringing the Ways to assist
> each person in finding and fulfilling their own unique path of return to
> Grandfather Fire/Creator, after he had taught these Ways to the people,
> he went into the heavens where we can see him today as the Eagle of the
> Night or north star. There he stands, ready to be of assistance to all
> people. It is upon the night of the Winter Solstice that First Shaman's
> spirit returns to the people, bestowing spiritual gifts upon all, that
> our new year might be one of joy, compassion and growth. This return
> reminds us of the Give-Away, that this coming of the new year is a time
> to consider our friends, family and all people as we celebrate through
> giving something from our heart.
>
> On behalf of the new year which follows the Winter Solstice, I suggest
> that each person reflect during the night on that which they have
> created during the past year. Leave behind that which does not serve you
> and carry forth that which does into the new year, that these good
> things might grow and blossom into your life throughout the year.
> Celebrate the gifts you have, those you receive and the good thing you
> have done on behalf of our Father the Sun.
>
> Blessings and Happy new year!
> ~Nick
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
>



--
Per pale argent and purpure, two phoenixes counterchanged sable and argent
each rising from flames proper.

"It is sometimes the most fragile things that have the power to endure and
become sources of strength."
- May Sarton

"Only a life lived in the service to others is worth living."- Albert
Einstein

"Out of clutter, find Simplicity. From discord, find Harmony. In the middle
of difficulty lies opportunity." - Albert Einstein

"And the day came when the risk to remain tight in a bud was more painful
than the risk it took to blossom." - Anais Nin

"Go confidently in the direction of your dreams. Live the life you have
imagined." - Henry David Thoreau


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Happy Solstice,
   In traditional Siberian shamanism Solstice is not a holiday itself. Solstice
marks the countdown of what is considered the most dangerous time of year- a
time of little to no protection from the spirits. This time leads up to "bituun"
when the spirits actually go up to the sky to receive a cleansing. The real
holiday is during lunal New Year which is called Tsagaan Sar- the White Moon.
This is when the spirits return, very powerful, and great shamanic work can
begin for the year. So right now all over Siberia and Mongolia, people are
preparing to make it through this time of low spiritual energy and looking
forward to the New Year celebration that can last for several weeks. People
visit relatives, exchange gifts, feast, and there are many shaman rituals to
celebrate.
    I have many Wiccan and Pagan friends that celebrate Solstice. So to them and
any of you who also celebrate it- Happy Solstice!
Steve

--- In ShamanicWays@yahoogroups.com, Nick Noble Wolf <true_dog@...> wrote:
>
> The Winter Solstice is upon us today. This is a special time of
> beginnings, and for me perhaps the most holy time of the year. The
> Winter Solstice is the time when the old year ends and all that it
> brought is left behind as we begin the journey into the new year.
>
> On the Winter Solstice, the Sun Father will have traveled the furthest
> south, making that day the shortest of the year. The longest night is
> the one following the solstice; the day after solstice is just a little
> bit longer as he begins his return. (For example, December 22 is
> generally considered the solstice this year. That day will be the
> shortest day of the year. That evening until the next morning will be
> the longest night.)
>
> To those of us in the northern hemisphere, we see and feel the Sun
> Father at his weakest on the solstice. Therefore, we men care-take him
> on the night of the solstice to ensure his return. Men go into the
> fields or their back yards or gardens that afternoon and make a fire
> which might hold his spirit in honor and solace. We then watch over his
> spirit throughout this longest night ensuring that he who gives us so
> much does in fact return the next day. On that following sun-up, we send
> that which we have honoured and protected all the night long back into
> the sky. We know within our deepest self---within our soul---that if we
> do not do this honor, that he will withdraw from us, perhaps never to
> return. In days long ago, people might gather, men and women, around the
> sacred fire which has been created for this honouring and care-taking,
> the men feeding him throughout the night and the women ensuring that
> they do. Then in the morning, when his spirit has returned to the sky,
> the people would rekindle their hearth fires in celebration of his
> renewed spirit.
>
> In this day and age I receive questions as to how one might caretake our
> Sun Father with no place for a fire within one's home. To you, I remind
> that First Shaman who taught us these things as a gift from Creator,
> never said that the fire for this honouring need be large. An oil lamp
> or even a candle is sufficient, for it is the Sun Father's spirit, his
> essence, that we take responsibility for, and his spirit, while able to
> encompass the whole of the Earth Mother and all her peoples, also lives
> within all fire. So, before the sun sets on solstice, kindle a small
> fire calling the Sun into that fire. Light your candle or lamp from that
> fire that you might take care of it during this sacred night.
>
> After First Shaman had come to the people bringing the Ways to assist
> each person in finding and fulfilling their own unique path of return to
> Grandfather Fire/Creator, after he had taught these Ways to the people,
> he went into the heavens where we can see him today as the Eagle of the
> Night or north star. There he stands, ready to be of assistance to all
> people. It is upon the night of the Winter Solstice that First Shaman's
> spirit returns to the people, bestowing spiritual gifts upon all, that
> our new year might be one of joy, compassion and growth. This return
> reminds us of the Give-Away, that this coming of the new year is a time
> to consider our friends, family and all people as we celebrate through
> giving something from our heart.
>
> On behalf of the new year which follows the Winter Solstice, I suggest
> that each person reflect during the night on that which they have
> created during the past year. Leave behind that which does not serve you
> and carry forth that which does into the new year, that these good
> things might grow and blossom into your life throughout the year.
> Celebrate the gifts you have, those you receive and the good thing you
> have done on behalf of our Father the Sun.
>
> Blessings and Happy new year!
> ~Nick
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>

Steve, when is the lunal new year you mention?

~N

On 12/22/2011 3:24 PM, yzermongol wrote:
> Happy Solstice,
>    In traditional Siberian shamanism Solstice is not a holiday itself.
Solstice marks the countdown of what is considered the most dangerous time of
year- a time of little to no protection from the spirits. This time leads up to
"bituun" when the spirits actually go up to the sky to receive a cleansing. The
real holiday is during lunal New Year which is called Tsagaan Sar- the White
Moon. This is when the spirits return, very powerful, and great shamanic work
can begin for the year. So right now all over Siberia and Mongolia, people are
preparing to make it through this time of low spiritual energy and looking
forward to the New Year celebration that can last for several weeks. People
visit relatives, exchange gifts, feast, and there are many shaman rituals to
celebrate.
>     I have many Wiccan and Pagan friends that celebrate Solstice. So to them
and any of you who also celebrate it- Happy Solstice!
> Steve
>
> --- In ShamanicWays@yahoogroups.com, Nick Noble Wolf<true_dog@...>  wrote:
>> The Winter Solstice is upon us today. This is a special time of
>> beginnings, and for me perhaps the most holy time of the year. The
>> Winter Solstice is the time when the old year ends and all that it
>> brought is left behind as we begin the journey into the new year.
>>
>> On the Winter Solstice, the Sun Father will have traveled the furthest
>> south, making that day the shortest of the year. The longest night is
>> the one following the solstice; the day after solstice is just a little
>> bit longer as he begins his return. (For example, December 22 is
>> generally considered the solstice this year. That day will be the
>> shortest day of the year. That evening until the next morning will be
>> the longest night.)
>>
>> To those of us in the northern hemisphere, we see and feel the Sun
>> Father at his weakest on the solstice. Therefore, we men care-take him
>> on the night of the solstice to ensure his return. Men go into the
>> fields or their back yards or gardens that afternoon and make a fire
>> which might hold his spirit in honor and solace. We then watch over his
>> spirit throughout this longest night ensuring that he who gives us so
>> much does in fact return the next day. On that following sun-up, we send
>> that which we have honoured and protected all the night long back into
>> the sky. We know within our deepest self---within our soul---that if we
>> do not do this honor, that he will withdraw from us, perhaps never to
>> return. In days long ago, people might gather, men and women, around the
>> sacred fire which has been created for this honouring and care-taking,
>> the men feeding him throughout the night and the women ensuring that
>> they do. Then in the morning, when his spirit has returned to the sky,
>> the people would rekindle their hearth fires in celebration of his
>> renewed spirit.
>>
>> In this day and age I receive questions as to how one might caretake our
>> Sun Father with no place for a fire within one's home. To you, I remind
>> that First Shaman who taught us these things as a gift from Creator,
>> never said that the fire for this honouring need be large. An oil lamp
>> or even a candle is sufficient, for it is the Sun Father's spirit, his
>> essence, that we take responsibility for, and his spirit, while able to
>> encompass the whole of the Earth Mother and all her peoples, also lives
>> within all fire. So, before the sun sets on solstice, kindle a small
>> fire calling the Sun into that fire. Light your candle or lamp from that
>> fire that you might take care of it during this sacred night.
>>
>> After First Shaman had come to the people bringing the Ways to assist
>> each person in finding and fulfilling their own unique path of return to
>> Grandfather Fire/Creator, after he had taught these Ways to the people,
>> he went into the heavens where we can see him today as the Eagle of the
>> Night or north star. There he stands, ready to be of assistance to all
>> people. It is upon the night of the Winter Solstice that First Shaman's
>> spirit returns to the people, bestowing spiritual gifts upon all, that
>> our new year might be one of joy, compassion and growth. This return
>> reminds us of the Give-Away, that this coming of the new year is a time
>> to consider our friends, family and all people as we celebrate through
>> giving something from our heart.
>>
>> On behalf of the new year which follows the Winter Solstice, I suggest
>> that each person reflect during the night on that which they have
>> created during the past year. Leave behind that which does not serve you
>> and carry forth that which does into the new year, that these good
>> things might grow and blossom into your life throughout the year.
>> Celebrate the gifts you have, those you receive and the good thing you
>> have done on behalf of our Father the Sun.
>>
>> Blessings and Happy new year!
>> ~Nick
>>
>>
>> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>>
>
>
>
> ------------------------------------
>
> Note that all attachments are removed to minimize the possible spread of
viruses.Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>
>


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

LOL. That is a typo. Lunar (not Lunal) New Year is what I meant to say. This
occurs about two months after solstice- falling on a different day each year. I
think it is interesting how the same time of year can mean such different things
to different peoples. Many of the differences come from agrarian vs
hunter/gatherer nomad societies. If you are planting crops, your year's rhythm
is in tune with that. For nomads, it is in tune with the animals.
    Another common difference I see between many traditions is the view of what
the sun and moon are compared to masculine and feminine. Several traditions that
I have heard of see the sun as masculine and the moon as feminine. In Siberian
Shamanism it is reversed. The moon represents the male. Males are not always
around camp as they often leave for hunting or war- just as the moon comes and
goes. The sun is considered feminine- constant, embracing, and life-giving.
    Anyhow, no matter what your traditions are- happy holidays to all.
Steve

--- In ShamanicWays@yahoogroups.com, Nick Noble Wolf <true_dog@...> wrote:
>
> Steve, when is the lunal new year you mention?
>
> ~N
>

Hi,

I just joined. First name given to me at birth is Paul.
Thought I would say hi as you are getting spam from message in email, so you
know I am not a spammer.

Just got interested in shamanism after a long time of other spiritual studies
both LHP and RHP.

I am very interested in the healing aspects concerning soul retrieval and soul
loss.

My native traditions are Celtic (Irish) and Norse (Saxon/Norman) which is my
blood lineage and it is these traditions that I am focusing on for my spiritual
studies.

Hope all is well with everyone here and thanks for having this group.

Cheers

Paul

There have been sightings of little people deep in the heart of this
northland...has anybody heard or experienced the little people.

I am familiar with some of the little people who live in the desert
southwest and mountains of the U.S.

Blessings,
~Nick

On 2/19/2012 6:22 PM, harold wrote:
> There have been sightings of little people deep in the heart of this
northland...has anybody heard or experienced the little people.
>
>
>
> ------------------------------------
>
> Note that all attachments are removed to minimize the possible spread of
viruses.Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>
>


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Hi Paul,

Welcome to the group. Soul loss leads to death. Fortunately, most people
don't lose their souls, contrary to what some out there indicate.

Blessings,
~Nick

On 2/18/2012 12:06 AM, paulwyrd wrote:
> Hi,
>
> I just joined. First name given to me at birth is Paul.
> Thought I would say hi as you are getting spam from message in email, so you
know I am not a spammer.
>
> Just got interested in shamanism after a long time of other spiritual studies
both LHP and RHP.
>
> I am very interested in the healing aspects concerning soul retrieval and soul
loss.
>
> My native traditions are Celtic (Irish) and Norse (Saxon/Norman) which is my
blood lineage and it is these traditions that I am focusing on for my spiritual
studies.
>
> Hope all is well with everyone here and thanks for having this group.
>
> Cheers
>
> Paul
>
>
>
> ------------------------------------
>
> Note that all attachments are removed to minimize the possible spread of
viruses.Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>
>


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

My son had custody of his two children and
moved in with a cousin of his ex-wife's who has
four children. The Ex has problems with drugs
and a history of abuse and an ex-con boyfriend.
She is an unfit mother but in an attempt to
regain custody of the children she filed a
complaint with child welfare. She claimed that
her son told her that the other two boys in the
house held him down and tried to take his clothes
off of him. Did not really happen.
Social services came in and investigated.
Interviewed the kids individually using leading
questions until they got the answers they could
use. They first pulled the so-called ringleader
from the home and then took the whole family to
court and got a judge to order the removal of all
the children and then since the complaint was
sexual interference between the children they
have all been separated.

The ex tried to get my son to sign custody of
their two back over to her before court and then
went into court demanding that she be given her
two children. when told that would not happen
she stormed out of the court making a scene that
almost got her arrested.

My son and his current only received the
disclosure twenty minutes before court and had
no time to review it. Many errors have been
found but it's going slow. It was only the day
after the kids were ceased that we learned about
the complaint filed.

This is happening south of Calgary Alberta and
we need the truth to be revealed and the children
returned to Kevin and Jill ASAP.

Please help since I'm fighting Cancer myself right
now and have little energy or strength to help them.

Stormrider Walking Spirit Paths

The truth as I see it,
Is right but only for me

Hi Dave,

I'm sending some prayers off for your family.

Blessings,
~Nick

On 3/19/2012 11:41 PM, Dave McKeen wrote:
> My son had custody of his two children and
> moved in with a cousin of his ex-wife's who has
> four children. The Ex has problems with drugs
> and a history of abuse and an ex-con boyfriend.
> She is an unfit mother but in an attempt to
> regain custody of the children she filed a
> complaint with child welfare. She claimed that
> her son told her that the other two boys in the
> house held him down and tried to take his clothes
> off of him. Did not really happen.
> Social services came in and investigated.
> Interviewed the kids individually using leading
> questions until they got the answers they could
> use. They first pulled the so-called ringleader
> from the home and then took the whole family to
> court and got a judge to order the removal of all
> the children and then since the complaint was
> sexual interference between the children they
> have all been separated.
>
> The ex tried to get my son to sign custody of
> their two back over to her before court and then
> went into court demanding that she be given her
> two children. when told that would not happen
> she stormed out of the court making a scene that
> almost got her arrested.
>
> My son and his current only received the
> disclosure twenty minutes before court and had
> no time to review it. Many errors have been
> found but it's going slow. It was only the day
> after the kids were ceased that we learned about
> the complaint filed.
>
> This is happening south of Calgary Alberta and
> we need the truth to be revealed and the children
> returned to Kevin and Jill ASAP.
>
> Please help since I'm fighting Cancer myself right
> now and have little energy or strength to help them.
>
> Stormrider Walking Spirit Paths
>
> The truth as I see it,
> Is right but only for me
>
>
> ------------------------------------
>
> Note that all attachments are removed to minimize the possible spread of
viruses.Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>
>


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

I will introduce myself using the note I sent to the group owner for approval.
Thank you to dsaly69 for posting to the other group I am in so I could find this
group.
I am 61, married for 34 years, have 2 grown children, and have 3 grand
daughters. I because interested in the Native American ways at a very young age.
As I studied I realized that not all Native Americans believed the same way, but
all honored Mother Earth. I have read a few books on shamanism and have a great
interest in the use of the Medicine Wheel.
This message was sent to a group I belong to is how I learned of your group
after googleing the Toteg Tribe:
On Wed, May 9, 2012 at 10:52 PM, dsaly1969 <dsaly1969@...> wrote:

We are Toteg Tribe.

We know that all things are children of the Earth Mother and Sky Father, and
thus we are all related.

We learn the lessons Mother Earth teaches us through the languages of our
brothers and sisters; all that breathes, swims, flies, moves, grows, changes and
exists.

We aspire to walk in balance on Mother Earth and live in harmony with all that
is.

We remember to speak with respect with all things.

We honor and respect all of our ancestors: physical, cultural, and spiritual.

We listen with consideration to those who choose to share their wisdom with us,
and respect their rights to do so in their own way, in their own time.

We invoke the power of spirit for our own dreams and visions for the guidance of
ourselves and our Tribe.

We respect your right to follow your own vision.

We seek to find correctness, good judgment, learning and knowledge in all
things.

We practice personal responsibility in our daily lives.

We are the Toteg Tribe.

(For those who may be interested in learning more about the Toteg Tribe path, I
uploaded a book of over 100 pages about it which explains it in great detail.
Note - the term "spirit" can be interpreted in a more poetic or metaphorical
way.)

Thank you for considering me for membership to your group.
Mae aka Keelty Sage

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]