--- In TheCostumersManifesto@yahoogroups.com, "wolfiejinn" <roytoys@...> wrote:
>
> I am in love with this cloak Tara has posted on the Costumer Manifesto (well,
considering I LIVE on the site, it shouldn't be a shock).
>
> http://www.costumes.org/history/kohler/328.jpg
>
> However, when I first found this cloak I *swear* I found a color version of
this and that it was blue with the border trim embroidery a gold thread.  Does
anyone know what book/tract this is from? I cannot find any other reference on
where this was taken.  From the caption, it's likely an older publication,
1940s-1960s.  Also, it's Germanic from the language.  Other than that, I'm at a
loss.  I would dearly LOVE to create it, right down to the embroidery.  The
edging looks either frayed (likely) or perhaps a fur trimming?  And what is the
lining?
>
> If anyone can help with this I would be SO grateful.  I am now off to peruse
my books to decide what to put on my Greek chiton!
>
> Wolfie
>
Wolfie,
Don't know what book it's from, but I can translate the writing under it. It
says in German to English..."dark red velveteen coat...from 1570-1580" Sammet=
cotton velvet.... Mantel = coat or cloak, rot = red, dunkel = dark.
The thing is a short cape made of dark red velveteen... cotton velvet....with a
high standup collar and some sort of button closure at the neck. The borders are
a metalic woven braid (looks machine made) and that fuzzy edge is a very dense
short fringe....the kind they used to put on the bottom of long coats and capes
or even priest's black or bishop's red cassocks to keep the edges from fraying
from use. The fringe could be cotton or wool.... I've seen both kinds. Wouldn't
surprise me if it were lined in silk... that's an expensive looking garment.
It's possibly a bishop's cape.... not a liturgical garment worn for liturgy, but
a cape worn as part of bishop's "outside" clothing...worn over a red cassock.
Tess

"Dunkelroter Sammetmantle" means "Dark Red Velvet Cloak" so the other
color photo was probably of a different garment. This is a guess on
my part, but it looks to me like a cassock or "casaque" possibly used
by a guard or musician in a military unit, or a civilian garment
inspired by military fashion. The stuff attached along the edges
looks like metallic galloon rather than fringe to me.

Thanks for the translation!  Well (lol) it's getting made out of blue cotton
velvet cause that's what I bought. (grin)  I do love the embroidery on that. 
How could it be machine if it's dated 1570?  Not much in the way of industrial
weaving and embroidery machines anywhere that early, I should think. (pathetic
sigh) It is gorgeous though.

If it's red velvet, I would agree, it's likely a church garment of some sort, or
at least worn by some church official.  Hmmm.  Fringe on the edges, you say? 
Since this is merely going to be a half cloak to replace the cheap, crappy half
cloak that I bought over 10 years ago at one of my first Ren Faires and will
hopefully grace the shoulders of a late Tudor gown later this year, I won't
bother with the fringe.  The buttons, or hooks, would work perfectly, as our
faires and other assorted activities always seem to be windy.

I thank you again for the help, Tess. 'Tis most appreciated!

Wolfie

--- In TheCostumersManifesto@yahoogroups.com, "tjchatham" <tjchatham@...> wrote:

> Wolfie,
> Don't know what book it's from, but I can translate the writing under it. It
says in German to English..."dark red velveteen coat...from 1570-1580" Sammet=
cotton velvet.... Mantel = coat or cloak, rot = red, dunkel = dark.

> The thing is a short cape made of dark red velveteen... cotton velvet....with
a high standup collar and some sort of button closure at the neck. The borders
are a metalic woven braid (looks machine made) and that fuzzy edge is a very
dense short fringe....the kind they used to put on the bottom of long coats and
capes or even priest's black or bishop's red cassocks to keep the edges from
fraying from use. The fringe could be cotton or wool.... I've seen both kinds.
Wouldn't surprise me if it were lined in silk... that's an expensive looking
garment. It's possibly a bishop's cape.... not a liturgical garment worn for
liturgy, but a cape worn as part of bishop's "outside" clothing...worn over a
red cassock.
> Tess
>

Wolfie,
The style (quite a high collar and the seam across the shoulder... even the
design on the border trim... which most likely is a machine woven tape....
probably silk or rayon and metallic threads) and the fabrics to me say that it's
the date that's waaaaay off! I'd put the date on it more likely to be somewhere
in the late 1800s or early 1900s although, if it is a bishop's garment... those
styles held sway a whole lot longer than "lay" fashion styles, which changed
with the whim of the king and court of the times.
Methinks the style is more likely to be 1870-90. Someone mistook an "8" for a
"5". If the thing had been hand made and hand embroidered from the 1500s,
someone would have been more careful to match the design of the tape... right to
left. It's off a half a repeat and to me, that looks a bit sloppy or careless.
Braids such as this one could be made by hand.... on a loom... but the loomed
ones usually look quite a bit more "thick" or substantial. This one appears to
be quite thin. And I'd have to do some research to find out just when
"velveteen" appeared on the scene. Maybe the name "Kohler" in that addy is the
clue to it's true identity and date. There was a very famous German judge by
that name in history in the 1880s... Josef Kohler. He practically rewrote the
entire German jurisprudence... and taught law at Berlin University.... and
professors dressed a bit like bishops in those days... or vice versa.
Tess


--- In TheCostumersManifesto@yahoogroups.com, "wolfiejinn" <roytoys@...> wrote:
>
> Thanks for the translation!  Well (lol) it's getting made out of blue cotton
velvet cause that's what I bought. (grin)  I do love the embroidery on that. 
How could it be machine if it's dated 1570?  Not much in the way of industrial
weaving and embroidery machines anywhere that early, I should think. (pathetic
sigh) It is gorgeous though.
>
> If it's red velvet, I would agree, it's likely a church garment of some sort,
or at least worn by some church official.  Hmmm.  Fringe on the edges, you say? 
Since this is merely going to be a half cloak to replace the cheap, crappy half
cloak that I bought over 10 years ago at one of my first Ren Faires and will
hopefully grace the shoulders of a late Tudor gown later this year, I won't
bother with the fringe.  The buttons, or hooks, would work perfectly, as our
faires and other assorted activities always seem to be windy.
>
> I thank you again for the help, Tess. 'Tis most appreciated!
>
> Wolfie
>
> --- In TheCostumersManifesto@yahoogroups.com, "tjchatham" <tjchatham@> wrote:
>
> > Wolfie,
> > Don't know what book it's from, but I can translate the writing under it. It
says in German to English..."dark red velveteen coat...from 1570-1580" Sammet=
cotton velvet.... Mantel = coat or cloak, rot = red, dunkel = dark.
>
> > The thing is a short cape made of dark red velveteen... cotton
velvet....with a high standup collar and some sort of button closure at the
neck. The borders are a metalic woven braid (looks machine made) and that fuzzy
edge is a very dense short fringe....the kind they used to put on the bottom of
long coats and capes or even priest's black or bishop's red cassocks to keep the
edges from fraying from use. The fringe could be cotton or wool.... I've seen
both kinds. Wouldn't surprise me if it were lined in silk... that's an expensive
looking garment. It's possibly a bishop's cape.... not a liturgical garment worn
for liturgy, but a cape worn as part of bishop's "outside" clothing...worn over
a red cassock.
> > Tess
> >
>

Wolfie,

That is from Carl Kohler's "A History of Costume." I have an early 1963 edition
of his book which is in black and white. In my edition that cloak is Fig. 330 on
page 266.

I just checked Amazon which has kept this book in print. The illustration you
are interest in is still in the List of Illustrations. If you use Amazon's "Look
Inside" feature and scroll to the description in the List of Illustrations, it
gives the dimensions of the cape.

http://www.amazon.com/History-Costume-Carl-Kohler/dp/0486210308/

I see from the caption that the cape is from the Nurnberg Museum in Germany. I
see they have a forthcoming website in English. But if you speak German, you
might be able to find more on the cape there.

http://www.gnm.de/index_en.html

Best,
Don McCunn
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/How-to-Make-Sewing-Patterns/

> I am in love with this cloak Tara has posted on the Costumer Manifesto (well,
considering I LIVE on the site, it shouldn't be a shock).
>
> http://www.costumes.org/history/kohler/328.jpg
>
> However, when I first found this cloak I *swear* I found a color version of
this and that it was blue with the border trim embroidery a gold thread.  Does
anyone know what book/tract this is from? I cannot find any other reference on
where this was taken.  From the caption, it's likely an older publication,
1940s-1960s.  Also, it's Germanic from the language.  Other than that, I'm at a
loss.  I would dearly LOVE to create it, right down to the embroidery.  The
edging looks either frayed (likely) or perhaps a fur trimming?  And what is the
lining?
>
> If anyone can help with this I would be SO grateful.  I am now off to peruse
my books to decide what to put on my Greek chiton!
>
> Wolfie
>

I just got offered the opportunity to costume design a new multimedia
musical production.   Haven't decided if I will take it yet, as it
depends on how much they will pay me and whether I think I can
actually get it done in time.  The producer has some very ambitious
ideas and the show is scheduled to go up on June 18.

He says all I need to do is to design it, and he will help me find
people to build it, but I know, based on what he's told me thus far
he wants, it is going to take highly skilled artisans.   Think the
summer Olympics in China.  Not as many costumes, of course, but some
very high tech and elaborate ones.  And lots of changes.  Dancers and
acrobats--think Cirque du Soleil.

He may be overly ambitious and willing to scale things down but even
so, I know this is going to cost him big bucks, and apparently he has
it.  I feel like I am out of my league here to a certain extent.   I
can design it and know quite a bit about construction, except when it
comes to very elaborate, circus-like, Las Vegas-like costumes.  Why
I'm telling you all this is I'm wondering if any of you out there
have experience with such costumes and would like to help build them
and think you could build them from a distance without having the
performers there.  It has occurred to me that maybe the producer
would be willing to house someone for 5-6 weeks, but I don't know
what to do about a costume shop and facilities.

I'm also wondering if any of you would want to act as a costume
supervisor to help me with coordination, construction, fittings,
alterations, and just about everything else involved.  I realize that
would definitely require housing and probably some kind of shop, if I
can figure out a space we might be able to rent.

I just interviewed with the guy today and haven't even read the
script yet but these were some of the challenges I was considering as
I drove home so I thought I'd share my concerns with you all and see
what some of you might want to say.

Thanks!

Sylvia R

Hi, I am a new member just a couple seconds old and am looking forward to being
part of this group.. The reason I chose ya all is I am getting back into sewing
after MANY years and am going to try my hand at making some authentic pirate
wear as my hubby and I belong to a pirate group... Would love your input as to
where I might find good patterns and if you have any advice to offer..

Thanks for having me,
Chris

Sylvia,

If I lived close enough to you and didn't have a job, I'd be over there in a
flash!  :D

Good luck and don't doubt yourself. Do one thing at a time.

Mandy
Australia

----- Original Message -----
From: "Sylvia Rognstad" <sylvia@...>
To: <TheCostumersManifesto@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Saturday, April 04, 2009 8:55 AM
Subject: [TheCostumersManifesto] Offer to design new musical


>I just got offered the opportunity to costume design a new multimedia
> musical production.   Haven't decided if I will take it yet, as it
> depends on how much they will pay me and whether I think I can
> actually get it done in time.  The producer has some very ambitious
> ideas and the show is scheduled to go up on June 18.
>
> He says all I need to do is to design it, and he will help me find
> people to build it, but I know, based on what he's told me thus far
> he wants, it is going to take highly skilled artisans.   Think the
> summer Olympics in China.  Not as many costumes, of course, but some
> very high tech and elaborate ones.  And lots of changes.  Dancers and
> acrobats--think Cirque du Soleil.
>
> He may be overly ambitious and willing to scale things down but even
> so, I know this is going to cost him big bucks, and apparently he has
> it.  I feel like I am out of my league here to a certain extent.   I
> can design it and know quite a bit about construction, except when it
> comes to very elaborate, circus-like, Las Vegas-like costumes.  Why
> I'm telling you all this is I'm wondering if any of you out there
> have experience with such costumes and would like to help build them
> and think you could build them from a distance without having the
> performers there.  It has occurred to me that maybe the producer
> would be willing to house someone for 5-6 weeks, but I don't know
> what to do about a costume shop and facilities.
>
> I'm also wondering if any of you would want to act as a costume
> supervisor to help me with coordination, construction, fittings,
> alterations, and just about everything else involved.  I realize that
> would definitely require housing and probably some kind of shop, if I
> can figure out a space we might be able to rent.
>
> I just interviewed with the guy today and haven't even read the
> script yet but these were some of the challenges I was considering as
> I drove home so I thought I'd share my concerns with you all and see
> what some of you might want to say.
>
> Thanks!
>
> Sylvia R
>
>
> ------------------------------------
>
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>

where are you?this sounds like fun...i'd be all over it, and might be...if i
knew where it is.
blessings,paula mcwhirter-buck

"THE TIME HAS COME", THE WALRUS SAID,"TO TALK OF MANY THINGS.

OF SHOES, AND SHIPS AND SEALING WAX, OF CABBAGES AND KINGS.

AND WHY THE SEA IS BOILING HOT, AND WHETHER PIGS HAVE WINGS."

--- On Fri, 4/3/09, Mandy F <mandythepcgirl@...> wrote:

From: Mandy F <mandythepcgirl@...>
Subject: Re: [TheCostumersManifesto] Offer to design new musical
To: TheCostumersManifesto@yahoogroups.com
Date: Friday, April 3, 2009, 8:55 PM

Sylvia,

If I lived close enough to you and didn't have a job, I'd be over there in a
flash!  :D

Good luck and don't doubt yourself. Do one thing at a time.

Mandy
Australia

----- Original Message -----
From: "Sylvia Rognstad" <sylvia@...>
To: <TheCostumersManifesto@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Saturday, April 04, 2009 8:55 AM
Subject: [TheCostumersManifesto] Offer to design new musical


>I just got offered the opportunity to costume design a new multimedia
> musical production.   Haven't decided if I will take it yet, as it
> depends on how much they will pay me and whether I think I can
> actually get it done in time.  The producer has some very ambitious
> ideas and the show is scheduled to go up on June 18.
>
> He says all I need to do is to design it, and he will help me find
> people to build it, but I know, based on what he's told me thus far
> he wants, it is going to take highly skilled artisans.   Think the
> summer Olympics in China.  Not as many costumes, of course, but some
> very high tech and elaborate ones.  And lots of changes.  Dancers and
> acrobats--think Cirque du Soleil.
>
> He may be overly ambitious and willing to scale things down but even
> so, I know this is going to cost him big bucks, and apparently he has
> it.  I feel like I am out of my league here to a certain extent.   I
> can design it and know quite a bit about construction, except when it
> comes to very elaborate, circus-like, Las Vegas-like costumes.  Why
> I'm telling you all this is I'm wondering if any of you out there
> have experience with such costumes and would like to help build them
> and think you could build them from a distance without having the
> performers there.  It has occurred to me that maybe the producer
> would be willing to house someone for 5-6 weeks, but I don't know
> what to do about a costume shop and facilities.
>
> I'm also wondering if any of you would want to act as a costume
> supervisor to help me with coordination, construction, fittings,
> alterations, and just about everything else involved.  I realize that
> would definitely require housing and probably some kind of shop, if I
> can figure out a space we might be able to rent.
>
> I just interviewed with the guy today and haven't even read the
> script yet but these were some of the challenges I was considering as
> I drove home so I thought I'd share my concerns with you all and see
> what some of you might want to say.
>
> Thanks!
>
> Sylvia R
>
>
> ------------------------------------
>
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>



------------------------------------

Yahoo! Groups Links








[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

I didn't say where I am because I was thinking maybe I could find
people who could take on a project from long distance.   Except for
the costume supervisor position, which, of course, I don't even know
exists yet.

But I live in Boulder, Colorado.

Sylvia

On Apr 3, 2009, at 8:36 PM, Paula McWhirter-Buck wrote:

> where are you?this sounds like fun...i'd be all over it, and might
> be...if i knew where it is.
> blessings,paula mcwhirter-buck
>
> "THE TIME HAS COME", THE WALRUS SAID,"TO TALK OF MANY THINGS.
>
> OF SHOES, AND SHIPS AND SEALING WAX, OF CABBAGES AND KINGS.
>
> AND WHY THE SEA IS BOILING HOT, AND WHETHER PIGS HAVE WINGS."
>
> --- On Fri, 4/3/09, Mandy F <mandythepcgirl@...> wrote:
>
> From: Mandy F <mandythepcgirl@...>
> Subject: Re: [TheCostumersManifesto] Offer to design new musical
> To: TheCostumersManifesto@yahoogroups.com
> Date: Friday, April 3, 2009, 8:55 PM
>
> Sylvia,
>
> If I lived close enough to you and didn't have a job, I'd be over
> there in a
> flash!  :D
>
> Good luck and don't doubt yourself. Do one thing at a time.
>
> Mandy
> Australia
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Sylvia Rognstad" <sylvia@...>
> To: <TheCostumersManifesto@yahoogroups.com>
> Sent: Saturday, April 04, 2009 8:55 AM
> Subject: [TheCostumersManifesto] Offer to design new musical
>
> >I just got offered the opportunity to costume design a new multimedia
> > musical production.   Haven't decided if I will take it yet, as it
> > depends on how much they will pay me and whether I think I can
> > actually get it done in time.  The producer has some very ambitious
> > ideas and the show is scheduled to go up on June 18.
> >
> > He says all I need to do is to design it, and he will help me find
> > people to build it, but I know, based on what he's told me thus far
> > he wants, it is going to take highly skilled artisans.   Think the
> > summer Olympics in China.  Not as many costumes, of course, but some
> > very high tech and elaborate ones.  And lots of changes.  Dancers
> and
> > acrobats--think Cirque du Soleil.
> >
> > He may be overly ambitious and willing to scale things down but even
> > so, I know this is going to cost him big bucks, and apparently he
> has
> > it.  I feel like I am out of my league here to a certain extent.   I
> > can design it and know quite a bit about construction, except
> when it
> > comes to very elaborate, circus-like, Las Vegas-like costumes.  Why
> > I'm telling you all this is I'm wondering if any of you out there
> > have experience with such costumes and would like to help build them
> > and think you could build them from a distance without having the
> > performers there.  It has occurred to me that maybe the producer
> > would be willing to house someone for 5-6 weeks, but I don't know
> > what to do about a costume shop and facilities.
> >
> > I'm also wondering if any of you would want to act as a costume
> > supervisor to help me with coordination, construction, fittings,
> > alterations, and just about everything else involved.  I realize
> that
> > would definitely require housing and probably some kind of shop,
> if I
> > can figure out a space we might be able to rent.
> >
> > I just interviewed with the guy today and haven't even read the
> > script yet but these were some of the challenges I was
> considering as
> > I drove home so I thought I'd share my concerns with you all and see
> > what some of you might want to say.
> >
> > Thanks!
> >
> > Sylvia R
> >
> >
> > ------------------------------------
> >
> > Yahoo! Groups Links
> >
> >
> >
>
> ------------------------------------
>
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
>



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Hi Chris. I suggest you start here:
> http://www.gentlemenoffortune.com/groups.htm
>

Regards, Keith.


>
>



--
“I went to woods because I wished to live deliberately, to front only the
essential facts of life and see if I could not learn what it had to teach,
and not, when I came to die, discover that I had not lived.” Henry David
Thoreau.


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Hello,

This sounds very interesting....I live and work in Canada (Stratford, Ontario),
and might be interested in doing some of the work from afar.  I am thoroughly
experienced (30 yrs+) in all aspects of costume production, and love new
challenges and interesting projects - this one sounds like a good one.  Below is
a link to my site, if you'd like to see the quality of my work. Let me know if
this sounds appealing to you.

http://zedemel.tripod.com/

All the best - Zed

--- In TheCostumersManifesto@yahoogroups.com, Sylvia Rognstad <sylvia@...>
wrote:
>
> I just got offered the opportunity to costume design a new multimedia
> musical production.   Haven't decided if I will take it yet, as it
> depends on how much they will pay me and whether I think I can
> actually get it done in time.  The producer has some very ambitious
> ideas and the show is scheduled to go up on June 18.
>
> He says all I need to do is to design it, and he will help me find
> people to build it, but I know, based on what he's told me thus far
> he wants, it is going to take highly skilled artisans.   Think the
> summer Olympics in China.  Not as many costumes, of course, but some
> very high tech and elaborate ones.  And lots of changes.  Dancers and
> acrobats--think Cirque du Soleil.
>
> He may be overly ambitious and willing to scale things down but even
> so, I know this is going to cost him big bucks, and apparently he has
> it.  I feel like I am out of my league here to a certain extent.   I
> can design it and know quite a bit about construction, except when it
> comes to very elaborate, circus-like, Las Vegas-like costumes.  Why
> I'm telling you all this is I'm wondering if any of you out there
> have experience with such costumes and would like to help build them
> and think you could build them from a distance without having the
> performers there.  It has occurred to me that maybe the producer
> would be willing to house someone for 5-6 weeks, but I don't know
> what to do about a costume shop and facilities.
>
> I'm also wondering if any of you would want to act as a costume
> supervisor to help me with coordination, construction, fittings,
> alterations, and just about everything else involved.  I realize that
> would definitely require housing and probably some kind of shop, if I
> can figure out a space we might be able to rent.
>
> I just interviewed with the guy today and haven't even read the
> script yet but these were some of the challenges I was considering as
> I drove home so I thought I'd share my concerns with you all and see
> what some of you might want to say.
>
> Thanks!
>
> Sylvia R
>

This is still concerning the new musical I've been asked to design.
I'm trying to figure out what sort of fee to request.   Does anyone
here design for regional theatre?  I'm wondering what they get for
large shows.  I did one very small regional theatre production
several years ago.   The going union rate was $3000.   I don't know
if that fee varies depending on the size of the show and if it has
gone up since.

Any input anyone?

Sylvia R

i work for regional theatre as a costumer...NON UNION.pay for visiting designers
is $1000.since i'm the shop supervisor...and resident designer...i get half that
to design (therefore i dont accept the larger shows, and have my theatre farm
them out to the folks that will get what the task is actually worth), and get
paid seperately to manage the shop.that's in western north carolina.
blessings,paula mcwhirter-buck

"THE TIME HAS COME", THE WALRUS SAID,"TO TALK OF MANY THINGS.

OF SHOES, AND SHIPS AND SEALING WAX, OF CABBAGES AND KINGS.

AND WHY THE SEA IS BOILING HOT, AND WHETHER PIGS HAVE WINGS."

--- On Sat, 4/4/09, Sylvia Rognstad <sylvia@...> wrote:

From: Sylvia Rognstad <sylvia@...>
Subject: [TheCostumersManifesto] design fees
To: TheCostumersManifesto@yahoogroups.com
Date: Saturday, April 4, 2009, 11:45 AM

This is still concerning the new musical I've been asked to design.   
I'm trying to figure out what sort of fee to request.   Does anyone 
here design for regional theatre?  I'm wondering what they get for 
large shows.  I did one very small regional theatre production 
several years ago.   The going union rate was $3000.   I don't know 
if that fee varies depending on the size of the show and if it has 
gone up since.

Any input anyone?

Sylvia R


------------------------------------

Yahoo! Groups Links








[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Has anyone ever seen mascot-type costumes made out of clear vinyl?
The producer of this musical I may design wants some acrobats dressed
as water droplets.  I thought of clear vinyl but can't figure out how
you'd keep them inflated without a motor inside which wouldn't look
very good.  The performers wearing them also need to be able to do
all kinds of movements in them, like rolling around on the floor and
sitting down.

Any ideas or does anyone know of a company I could contact that might
be able to make something like this?

Sylvia R

How would one go about trying to fix a rip in tulle?  Maybe I should say,
something like a seam, that you don't want to show?

Thanks for any help on this at all.

Judy

I've found that the best way to do that is to lay the pieces on top of each
other and hand sew them with itty bitty stitches. A bit more time consuming, but
it's less noticeable then if I put them together like a regular seam.

=^.^=

"If a man could be crossed with a cat,
It would improve the man,
but it would deteriorate the cat."
Mark Twain
Please note that Mark Twain specified
that the cross would improve the MAN,
no need to include women in that.
Women and cats are perfect as is.

--- On Mon, 4/6/09, themadcouture2001 <THEMADCouture@...> wrote:


From: themadcouture2001 <THEMADCouture@...>
Subject: [TheCostumersManifesto] Repairing Tulle
To: TheCostumersManifesto@yahoogroups.com
Date: Monday, April 6, 2009, 1:46 AM






How would one go about trying to fix a rip in tulle? Maybe I should say,
something like a seam, that you don't want to show?

Thanks for any help on this at all.

Judy



















[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

--- In TheCostumersManifesto@yahoogroups.com, "themadcouture2001"
<THEMADCouture@...> wrote:
>
> How would one go about trying to fix a rip in tulle?  Maybe I should say,
something like a seam, that you don't want to show?
>
> Thanks for any help on this at all.
>
> Judy


>
I would use a clear glue....

Hi, just my two cents...from my experience costuming...
If you have ANY doubts whatsoever do not take the position presently offered, if
you need it, the opportunity will come back to you.

If you are going to have the proper support, that would be one thing. If this is
the position that you have been yearning for, and it is really what you want to
be doing, then go for it!  You will make it happen if you really really want it.
Follow your gut feeling!

Caryneska

--- In TheCostumersManifesto@yahoogroups.com, "themadcouture2001"
<THEMADCouture@...> wrote:
>
> How would one go about trying to fix a rip in tulle?  Maybe I should say,
something like a seam, that you don't want to show?
>
> Thanks for any help on this at all.
>
> Judy
>


how about nylon thread...

Thanks for the input.  I have some doubts, which is why I sent the
producer an email last night asking for the minimum going union rate
for a large regional theatre, and stipulating that I will only take
on the duties of a regional theatre costume designer.  I haven't
heard back from him yet.  Either way, I figure it's ok.   Either he
pays me what I'm worth or I don't have any headaches.

Sylvia

On Apr 6, 2009, at 9:05 AM, caryneska wrote:

> Hi, just my two cents...from my experience costuming...
> If you have ANY doubts whatsoever do not take the position
> presently offered, if you need it, the opportunity will come back
> to you.
>
> If you are going to have the proper support, that would be one
> thing. If this is the position that you have been yearning for, and
> it is really what you want to be doing, then go for it! You will
> make it happen if you really really want it.
> Follow your gut feeling!
>
> Caryneska
>
>
>



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Sylvia,
Don't forget the lessons learned from the musical that you did about a year ago.

retshopbuyer

--- In TheCostumersManifesto@yahoogroups.com, Sylvia Rognstad <sylvia@...>
wrote:
>
> Thanks for the input.  I have some doubts, which is why I sent the
>

Is this an outer layer of a garment, or something that is kind of camouflaged by
other layers over/around it?  I have had pretty good luck in lining up the edges
of the rip and stitching back and forth over them with thread in a matching
color (so it looks like a really wide zig-zag mending stitch)...a trick I picked
up from military clothing bought on surplus clearance, actually.  But that has
always been on a petticoat layer, where there was something to kind of help hide
the extra thread (it also works if you're manding a piece in a very full ruffle
or multiple ruffles, as the fullness of the fabric helps conceal the stitching.)

--- In TheCostumersManifesto@yahoogroups.com, "themadcouture2001"
<THEMADCouture@...> wrote:
>
> How would one go about trying to fix a rip in tulle?  Maybe I should say,
something like a seam, that you don't want to show?
>
> Thanks for any help on this at all.
>
> Judy
>

I would love to help out, if the timing was different.  As it is, you'll be
hitting crunch time on preparations just as we're opening our shows.  I do have
a few questions that came to mind as I was mulling this over--How many
performers are involved in this production?  Is this for an indoor or outdoor
theater?  Will the actors have multiple costumes and need to make changes during
the show?

To touch on a few questions you had, though--

I worked on the SLC Winter Olympics Medals Plaza and the Paralympics Opening
Ceremonies...it IS possible to do elaborate costumes and ship them, though we
had nothing I can recall that was on the order of what you're talking about in
terms of complexity.  However, we started work at the Paralympics costume shop
about three months before the show went up, and when we arrived, about two
thirds of the costumes were already constructed (not finished, but the primary
construction of the core garment was complete), and the rest were built on-site,
as well as all alterations and decorations taken care of.  If your producer is
going to get this built in time for his projected opening, and he's going to be
that elaborate about it, he's going to need to pay a lot of people a lot of
money to get stuff done.

In terms of being out of your league in knowing the construction end of
it...well, a lot of designers that I've worked with don't really understand the
fine points of construction, especially when it comes to such specialized
costuming...they just decide what they want it to look like and let the company
hired to build it figure out how to make the finished product look like the
renderings (and, yes, I hate it when they do that to me, because they've usually
designed something that can only be built properly with materials that I can't
find...)  I wouldn't let that stand in the way too much on whether or not you
choose to design it.

RE: building from a distance.  I can't speak for anyone else here, but I
personally would need to see what someone was asking me to build before I could
definitively commit to the project.  I'd also only agree to it if the producer
agreed to cover the cost of shipping stuff (which seems pretty common-sense, I
know...but sadly, common sense isn't very common...)  I'd also need at least
some overall measurements to build for...but I know from experience that it's
relatively easy to take something built in this way and fine-fit it on-site, it
doesn't have to be built-to-fit from the get-go.

I have no idea what size of cast this will involve...but I do have to say, from
my experience, that your producer is about six months behind where he needs to
be to meet his deadline for opening the show.  If it was a 'regular' production,
this would be perfect...but the bigger and more elaborate you want to get with
something, the more lead-time you need in construction (and not just for
costumes).  The Paralympics started work in the shop three months before the
Ceremonies went up, with a lot of costumes rough-built before they were turned
over to the on-site crew.  The shop was running 12 hours/day, 6 days/week, with
at least 50 people on hand at any given time (granted, they were almost all
volunteers, so we had varying levels of expertise...) and generally working on
about 4 different projects simultaneously at any point in the process.  I have
no idea how long the work took before it was turned over to us.  And our shop
supervisor had actually been a costumer for Cirque, so he knew how to deal with
some of the tricky issues that came up (although there was still a fair amount
of 'figure it out as you go').  We didn't have the designer on-site the whole
time...she came in to visit a couple of times over the course of preparations,
and was there through the entire dress-rehearsal process.

So, I think it sounds like a great project...but I don't think his projected
opening is very realistic unless he's only got a cast of 20 or so people
(because the Ceremonies was a cast of 100+...of course, none of them had
multiple costumes, and I don't know how that will be for this production...)

--- In TheCostumersManifesto@yahoogroups.com, Sylvia Rognstad <sylvia@...>
wrote:
>
> I just got offered the opportunity to costume design a new multimedia
> musical production.   Haven't decided if I will take it yet, as it
> depends on how much they will pay me and whether I think I can
> actually get it done in time.  The producer has some very ambitious
> ideas and the show is scheduled to go up on June 18.
>
> He says all I need to do is to design it, and he will help me find
> people to build it, but I know, based on what he's told me thus far
> he wants, it is going to take highly skilled artisans.   Think the
> summer Olympics in China.  Not as many costumes, of course, but some
> very high tech and elaborate ones.  And lots of changes.  Dancers and
> acrobats--think Cirque du Soleil.
>
> He may be overly ambitious and willing to scale things down but even
> so, I know this is going to cost him big bucks, and apparently he has
> it.  I feel like I am out of my league here to a certain extent.   I
> can design it and know quite a bit about construction, except when it
> comes to very elaborate, circus-like, Las Vegas-like costumes.  Why
> I'm telling you all this is I'm wondering if any of you out there
> have experience with such costumes and would like to help build them
> and think you could build them from a distance without having the
> performers there.  It has occurred to me that maybe the producer
> would be willing to house someone for 5-6 weeks, but I don't know
> what to do about a costume shop and facilities.
>
> I'm also wondering if any of you would want to act as a costume
> supervisor to help me with coordination, construction, fittings,
> alterations, and just about everything else involved.  I realize that
> would definitely require housing and probably some kind of shop, if I
> can figure out a space we might be able to rent.
>
> I just interviewed with the guy today and haven't even read the
> script yet but these were some of the challenges I was considering as
> I drove home so I thought I'd share my concerns with you all and see
> what some of you might want to say.
>
> Thanks!
>
> Sylvia R
>

Curtis,
All you bring up is why this project is causing me so much concern.
The producer seems to have absolutely no idea how much time this will
take.  I'[m thinking maybe I should forward him your email to help
give him an idea.

He hasn't even cast the show yet.   There are 18 actors, some playing
multiple parts, and he wants a lot of dancers and acrobats as well,
each playing multiple parts.  The play starts at the beginning of
time and goes to 2020, with scenes from various periods in history.
The first costumes are either planets or evolving life forms--he's
using animation in place of some of the live action.    Lots of fast
costume changes.  The show is indoors in a $300,000 dome he is having
built.  There will be projections on all the walls of the dome of the
live action which takes place on a stage out of view of the audience.

Sounds very exciting, I must admit, but I really don't think he is
being realistic.  Do you mind if I send him your message?

Sylvia

On Apr 6, 2009, at 1:18 PM, Curtis wrote:

> I would love to help out, if the timing was different. As it is,
> you'll be hitting crunch time on preparations just as we're opening
> our shows. I do have a few questions that came to mind as I was
> mulling this over--How many performers are involved in this
> production? Is this for an indoor or outdoor theater? Will the
> actors have multiple costumes and need to make changes during the
> show?
>
> To touch on a few questions you had, though--
>
> I worked on the SLC Winter Olympics Medals Plaza and the
> Paralympics Opening Ceremonies...it IS possible to do elaborate
> costumes and ship them, though we had nothing I can recall that was
> on the order of what you're talking about in terms of complexity.
> However, we started work at the Paralympics costume shop about
> three months before the show went up, and when we arrived, about
> two thirds of the costumes were already constructed (not finished,
> but the primary construction of the core garment was complete), and
> the rest were built on-site, as well as all alterations and
> decorations taken care of. If your producer is going to get this
> built in time for his projected opening, and he's going to be that
> elaborate about it, he's going to need to pay a lot of people a lot
> of money to get stuff done.
>
> In terms of being out of your league in knowing the construction
> end of it...well, a lot of designers that I've worked with don't
> really understand the fine points of construction, especially when
> it comes to such specialized costuming...they just decide what they
> want it to look like and let the company hired to build it figure
> out how to make the finished product look like the renderings (and,
> yes, I hate it when they do that to me, because they've usually
> designed something that can only be built properly with materials
> that I can't find...) I wouldn't let that stand in the way too much
> on whether or not you choose to design it.
>
> RE: building from a distance. I can't speak for anyone else here,
> but I personally would need to see what someone was asking me to
> build before I could definitively commit to the project. I'd also
> only agree to it if the producer agreed to cover the cost of
> shipping stuff (which seems pretty common-sense, I know...but
> sadly, common sense isn't very common...) I'd also need at least
> some overall measurements to build for...but I know from experience
> that it's relatively easy to take something built in this way and
> fine-fit it on-site, it doesn't have to be built-to-fit from the
> get-go.
>
> I have no idea what size of cast this will involve...but I do have
> to say, from my experience, that your producer is about six months
> behind where he needs to be to meet his deadline for opening the
> show. If it was a 'regular' production, this would be perfect...but
> the bigger and more elaborate you want to get with something, the
> more lead-time you need in construction (and not just for
> costumes). The Paralympics started work in the shop three months
> before the Ceremonies went up, with a lot of costumes rough-built
> before they were turned over to the on-site crew. The shop was
> running 12 hours/day, 6 days/week, with at least 50 people on hand
> at any given time (granted, they were almost all volunteers, so we
> had varying levels of expertise...) and generally working on about
> 4 different projects simultaneously at any point in the process. I
> have no idea how long the work took before it was turned over to
> us. And our shop supervisor had actually been a costumer for
> Cirque, so he knew how to deal with some of the tricky issues that
> came up (although there was still a fair amount of 'figure it out
> as you go'). We didn't have the designer on-site the whole
> time...she came in to visit a couple of times over the course of
> preparations, and was there through the entire dress-rehearsal
> process.
>
> So, I think it sounds like a great project...but I don't think his
> projected opening is very realistic unless he's only got a cast of
> 20 or so people (because the Ceremonies was a cast of 100+...of
> course, none of them had multiple costumes, and I don't know how
> that will be for this production...)
>
> --- In TheCostumersManifesto@yahoogroups.com, Sylvia Rognstad
> <sylvia@...> wrote:
> >
> > I just got offered the opportunity to costume design a new
> multimedia
> > musical production. Haven't decided if I will take it yet, as it
> > depends on how much they will pay me and whether I think I can
> > actually get it done in time. The producer has some very ambitious
> > ideas and the show is scheduled to go up on June 18.
> >
> > He says all I need to do is to design it, and he will help me find
> > people to build it, but I know, based on what he's told me thus far
> > he wants, it is going to take highly skilled artisans. Think the
> > summer Olympics in China. Not as many costumes, of course, but some
> > very high tech and elaborate ones. And lots of changes. Dancers and
> > acrobats--think Cirque du Soleil.
> >
> > He may be overly ambitious and willing to scale things down but even
> > so, I know this is going to cost him big bucks, and apparently he
> has
> > it. I feel like I am out of my league here to a certain extent. I
> > can design it and know quite a bit about construction, except
> when it
> > comes to very elaborate, circus-like, Las Vegas-like costumes. Why
> > I'm telling you all this is I'm wondering if any of you out there
> > have experience with such costumes and would like to help build them
> > and think you could build them from a distance without having the
> > performers there. It has occurred to me that maybe the producer
> > would be willing to house someone for 5-6 weeks, but I don't know
> > what to do about a costume shop and facilities.
> >
> > I'm also wondering if any of you would want to act as a costume
> > supervisor to help me with coordination, construction, fittings,
> > alterations, and just about everything else involved. I realize that
> > would definitely require housing and probably some kind of shop,
> if I
> > can figure out a space we might be able to rent.
> >
> > I just interviewed with the guy today and haven't even read the
> > script yet but these were some of the challenges I was
> considering as
> > I drove home so I thought I'd share my concerns with you all and see
> > what some of you might want to say.
> >
> > Thanks!
> >
> > Sylvia R
> >
>
>
>



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Actually it's a vintage bride dress for a doll.  The upper layer is a sheer lace
with an embroidered design at the bottom, and the tulle layer (that is somewhat
repaired) is right under it.  Apparently on this particular dress, the bottom
lace design must have been torn, cause someone cut it off about 4" below the
waist line, and top stitched another skirt on it.  It looks terrible with that
going around the skirt.  I was hoping to be able to work french lace stitching
over it, but I'm not sure, as there really isn't much to hold onto.   I might
try your idea of zig zag on a scrap and see what happens.

Thanks for your advice.   I think I like it.

Judy


--- In TheCostumersManifesto@yahoogroups.com, "Curtis" <gckidd@...> wrote:
>
> Is this an outer layer of a garment, or something that is kind of camouflaged
by other layers over/around it?  I have had pretty good luck in lining up the
edges of the rip and stitching back and forth over them with thread in a
matching color (so it looks like a really wide zig-zag mending stitch)...a trick
I picked up from military clothing bought on surplus clearance, actually.  But
that has always been on a petticoat layer, where there was something to kind of
help hide the extra thread (it also works if you're manding a piece in a very
full ruffle or multiple ruffles, as the fullness of the fabric helps conceal the
stitching.)
>
> --- In TheCostumersManifesto@yahoogroups.com, "themadcouture2001"
<THEMADCouture@> wrote:
> >
> > How would one go about trying to fix a rip in tulle?  Maybe I should say,
something like a seam, that you don't want to show?
> >
> > Thanks for any help on this at all.
> >
> > Judy
> >
>

Thanks to all those who took the time to write to me about the "tulle" problem
both on the board and personally.  I didn't end up getting the dress in the
auction, cause my friend wanted it really bad, so I let her bid, and told her I
would fix it for her.  Well, she didn't bid high enough, and neither of us got
it.  But I still find this has been very educational for me.

Thanks again, everyone!   I'll keep restoring my dolls!

Judy


--- In TheCostumersManifesto@yahoogroups.com, "sonai1121" <sonai1121@...> wrote:
>
> --- In TheCostumersManifesto@yahoogroups.com, "themadcouture2001"
<THEMADCouture@> wrote:
> >
> > How would one go about trying to fix a rip in tulle?  Maybe I should say,
something like a seam, that you don't want to show?
> >
> > Thanks for any help on this at all.
> >
> > Judy
>
>
> >
> I would use a clear glue....
>

LOL Thank you everyone for the help! Wow!  While I was looking to 'recreate'
the cloak, I wasn't going to go for an exact look. (grin) I loved the
embroidery and the cut of the cloak and such.  However, as a  holder of a
bachelors honors in history, the information has not gone to waste. >:)  I
do believe I will give this book a look, though, Don, I thank you!

I'm enjoying the convos on the list as well.  Hope everyone has a good
upcoming holiday weekend!

Wolfie

On Fri, Apr 3, 2009 at 10:13 AM, Don McCunn <
Don@...> wrote:

>   Wolfie,
>
> That is from Carl Kohler's "A History of Costume." I have an early 1963
> edition of his book which is in black and white. In my edition that cloak is
> Fig. 330 on page 266.
>
> I just checked Amazon which has kept this book in print. The illustration
> you are interest in is still in the List of Illustrations. If you use
> Amazon's "Look Inside" feature and scroll to the description in the List of
> Illustrations, it gives the dimensions of the cape.
>
> http://www.amazon.com/History-Costume-Carl-Kohler/dp/0486210308/
>
> I see from the caption that the cape is from the Nurnberg Museum in
> Germany. I see they have a forthcoming website in English. But if you speak
> German, you might be able to find more on the cape there.
>
> http://www.gnm.de/index_en.html
>
> Best,
> Don McCunn
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/How-to-Make-Sewing-Patterns/
>
>
> > I am in love with this cloak Tara has posted on the Costumer Manifesto
> (well, considering I LIVE on the site, it shouldn't be a shock).
> >
> > http://www.costumes.org/history/kohler/328.jpg
> >
> > However, when I first found this cloak I *swear* I found a color version
> of this and that it was blue with the border trim embroidery a gold thread.
> Does anyone know what book/tract this is from? I cannot find any other
> reference on where this was taken. From the caption, it's likely an older
> publication, 1940s-1960s. Also, it's Germanic from the language. Other than
> that, I'm at a loss. I would dearly LOVE to create it, right down to the
> embroidery. The edging looks either frayed (likely) or perhaps a fur
> trimming? And what is the lining?
> >
> > If anyone can help with this I would be SO grateful. I am now off to
> peruse my books to decide what to put on my Greek chiton!
> >
> > Wolfie
> >
>
>
>


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Sylvia--

By all means, forward him my message.  Add this one on, if you want it.  For a
show on that scale, he needs to start designing at least six months in advance. 
Personally, I would push for a year, but I like to try and pad estimates for
stuff like that because I've had too many bad experiences with massive design
projects that got started too late.

Most theater companies I know would be starting rehearsals about now if they
were going to be opening in mid-June...or at least already be cast.  And that's
for a regular show, with no especially grand design elements.  The regional
theaters in this area start lining up their designers anywhere from six months
to a year before they plan to open the show, and have already had at least one
production meeting by the time they start rehearsals.  The more elaborate the
show gets, the more lead time they need...and to incorporate a cast of 20 or so
with multiple acrobats and dancers, it will take a lot of lead time.

Conceptually, it sounds like a really fun project.  Realistically, his timing in
approaching you is about right if he wanted to open at the same time next year. 
And a project of this nature should definitely take more than standard design
fees, union or not.  Unless he's willing to adjust his production schedule, I'd
personally recommend taking a pass on this one, or else you'll find yourself
burned out...to bring together everything it would take to get this scale of
show up and running on the timetable proposed would require you to clear your
table of pretty much everything else from now until opening...you'd need the
time to design stuff, and then you'd be zipping around to oversee construction
and sign off on projects with the various companies he hired to build your
designs, since there wouldn't be time to confer on projects via other means (the
speed of production would pretty much require face-to-face meetings to avoid
confusion).  You'd also need a good, prepared wardrobe team (I was hired in
November, to start in January, for the Paralympics, and they already had design
renderings completed at that point, plus the wardrobe manager was already on
staff--I was hired as a crew lead).  As it stands now, the project sounds like a
recipe for a lot of heartache for this year...or a lot of fun for next year.

--- In TheCostumersManifesto@yahoogroups.com, Sylvia Rognstad <sylvia@...>
wrote:
>
> Curtis,
> All you bring up is why this project is causing me so much concern.
> The producer seems to have absolutely no idea how much time this will
> take.  I'[m thinking maybe I should forward him your email to help
> give him an idea.
>
> He hasn't even cast the show yet.   There are 18 actors, some playing
> multiple parts, and he wants a lot of dancers and acrobats as well,
> each playing multiple parts.  The play starts at the beginning of
> time and goes to 2020, with scenes from various periods in history.
> The first costumes are either planets or evolving life forms--he's
> using animation in place of some of the live action.    Lots of fast
> costume changes.  The show is indoors in a $300,000 dome he is having
> built.  There will be projections on all the walls of the dome of the
> live action which takes place on a stage out of view of the audience.
>
> Sounds very exciting, I must admit, but I really don't think he is
> being realistic.  Do you mind if I send him your message?
>
> Sylvia
>

Thanks, Curtis.  I totally agree.  This sounds like a great project,
but the producer hasn't a clue about costuming.   He gave me a
costume plot that I think was put together by a friend who owns a
costume rental store in Denver.   She has done a lot of small theatre
shows in the area, but I don't think she's ever worked in a regional
theatre or anywhere that has a budget over $500.  Her plot allocated
$800 for the design fee, based on 40 hours of work.   I asked for 6
grand, based on 2.5 months of work.  She goes into a lot of detail
about how much materials and labor would cost for each costume, but
her labor estimates are way under, in my opinion, unless you're
thinking of community theatre costumes, and I didn't get the
impression that's what the producer wanted.   When I emailed him
about this, he admitted he hadn't even looked at the plot.

I think I will send him your emails and then see what he wants to
do.  I probably will take a pass.  I'm not into ruining my health
and still not even being able to pay my bills in the process.

Sylvia

On Apr 7, 2009, at 9:43 AM, Curtis wrote:

> Sylvia--
>
> By all means, forward him my message. Add this one on, if you want
> it. For a show on that scale, he needs to start designing at least
> six months in advance. Personally, I would push for a year, but I
> like to try and pad estimates for stuff like that because I've had
> too many bad experiences with massive design projects that got
> started too late.
>
> Most theater companies I know would be starting rehearsals about
> now if they were going to be opening in mid-June...or at least
> already be cast. And that's for a regular show, with no especially
> grand design elements. The regional theaters in this area start
> lining up their designers anywhere from six months to a year before
> they plan to open the show, and have already had at least one
> production meeting by the time they start rehearsals. The more
> elaborate the show gets, the more lead time they need...and to
> incorporate a cast of 20 or so with multiple acrobats and dancers,
> it will take a lot of lead time.
>
> Conceptually, it sounds like a really fun project. Realistically,
> his timing in approaching you is about right if he wanted to open
> at the same time next year. And a project of this nature should
> definitely take more than standard design fees, union or not.
> Unless he's willing to adjust his production schedule, I'd
> personally recommend taking a pass on this one, or else you'll find
> yourself burned out...to bring together everything it would take to
> get this scale of show up and running on the timetable proposed
> would require you to clear your table of pretty much everything
> else from now until opening...you'd need the time to design stuff,
> and then you'd be zipping around to oversee construction and sign
> off on projects with the various companies he hired to build your
> designs, since there wouldn't be time to confer on projects via
> other means (the speed of production would pretty much require face-
> to-face meetings to avoid confusion). You'd also need a good,
> prepared wardrobe team (I was hired in November, to start in
> January, for the Paralympics, and they already had design
> renderings completed at that point, plus the wardrobe manager was
> already on staff--I was hired as a crew lead). As it stands now,
> the project sounds like a recipe for a lot of heartache for this
> year...or a lot of fun for next year.
>
> --- In TheCostumersManifesto@yahoogroups.com, Sylvia Rognstad
> <sylvia@...> wrote:
> >
> > Curtis,
> > All you bring up is why this project is causing me so much concern.
> > The producer seems to have absolutely no idea how much time this
> will
> > take. I'[m thinking maybe I should forward him your email to help
> > give him an idea.
> >
> > He hasn't even cast the show yet. There are 18 actors, some playing
> > multiple parts, and he wants a lot of dancers and acrobats as well,
> > each playing multiple parts. The play starts at the beginning of
> > time and goes to 2020, with scenes from various periods in history.
> > The first costumes are either planets or evolving life forms--he's
> > using animation in place of some of the live action. Lots of fast
> > costume changes. The show is indoors in a $300,000 dome he is having
> > built. There will be projections on all the walls of the dome of the
> > live action which takes place on a stage out of view of the
> audience.
> >
> > Sounds very exciting, I must admit, but I really don't think he is
> > being realistic. Do you mind if I send him your message?
> >
> > Sylvia
> >
>
>
>



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