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#33723 From: applsaucefactory@...
Date: Thu Mar 24, 2011 10:30 am
Subject: Re: Re: Intro & Trinity questions @ Johannwilhelm
applsaucefac...
Send Email Send Email
 
 
 
In a message dated 3/24/2011 1:58:53 A.M. Central Daylight Time, pashanab@... writes:
 
<<So christ is a literal son, a christian is not?>>
xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
jesus is the literal son of God and of mary- christians are adopted sons of God and no relation at all with mary, except, of course, that we are all sons and daughters of eve.
 
NAS  Romans 8:15 For you have not received a spirit of slavery leading to fear again, but you have received a spirit of adoption as sons by which we cry out, "Abba! Father!"
 
NAS  Romans 8:23 And not only this, but also we ourselves, having the first fruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting eagerly for our adoption as sons, the redemption of our body.
 
NAS  Galatians 4:5 in order that He might redeem those who were under the Law, that we might receive the adoption as sons.
 
NAS  Ephesians 1:5 He predestined us to adoption as sons through Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the kind intention of His will,
 
<<Three mothers of the One mother Eve, I would suppose.>>
xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
three descendants of the one mother- eve
 
<<God choose Mary to be the mother of christ. and every christ is a child of Mary and a child of God.>>
xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
God chose mary to be the mother of the christ (i.e. the anointed one), but every anointed one is not a child of mary- but every anointed one is a child of God.
 
<<You believe that Jesus is man yet you doubt you are a christ.>>
xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
i am a christ (an anointed one), but i am not the christ (the anointed one)- only jesus is the anointed one.
 
<<yes christian and jews and moslems, literal and spiritual sons and daughters of abraham,>>
xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
only christians are the true spiritual sons and daughters of abraham
 
<<There are hebrew Jews, and hebrew Christians. I mean Hebrew by language.>>
xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
there are jews who do not speak hebrew, and there are those who speak hebrew and are not jews. there are jews who reject christ and therefore are not christian,and there are jews who accept christ and therefore are christian.
 
<<I am saying, I am an Arab, I am a Palestinian and I am a Christian. Who am I?>>
xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
arab, palestinian, and christian are three titles you identify with- but you are only one person.
 
- the apple

#33724 From: KGRAHAM0938@...
Date: Fri Mar 25, 2011 3:12 am
Subject: Re: Re: Intro & Trinity questions @Apple
kgraham0938
Send Email Send Email
 
Apple: well, i know i will never convince you - you are pretty hardened in your trinity belief- you will have to have an aha! moment of your own. but anyway- for the sake of those reading this besides you
 
the fact of the matter is that the hebrew word "adam" occurs in 527 verses, but in only 24 of those verses is it translated "adam" in the new american standard - the other 523 verses (when it occurs in the septuagint), it is translated "anthropos" including the following verse
 
NAS  Genesis 2:7 Then the LORD God formed man (adam, anthropon) of dust from the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man (adam, anthropos) became a living being.

  Response: Well you can pretend like it is me who is hardened in my views but it is obvious that there are a lot of things often overlooked when you do your exegesis.  For example when Adam is used as a proper name in the LXX. ADAM is always used.  (cf Gen 2:19,20) 

19: PROS TON ADAM IDEIN
20: KAI EKALESEN ADAM ONOMATA

Other uses are just generic uses which point to mankind.

===============================================================================================
 
Apple: the greek anthropos is the equivalent of the hebrew "adam". adam is never translated as "aner" or "arsen" in the septuagint. and there is no separate hebrew word for "man"- the greek used the transliteration, "adam" and the translation "anthropos"- but the hebrew has only "adam". the hebrew equivalent of "aner" is "ish". and the hebrew equivalent of "arsen" is "zakar".

 Response: ANQRWPOS and Ha'ADAM are similar only when Ha' ADAM represents generic man or mankind.  ANHR doesn't really capture the idea of mankind that ADAM does.  Most cases of the word ADAM when not used as a proper noun represents mankind although some do represent an individual, but not many.
===============================================================================================
 
Apple: a good example of where adam is translated as "anthropos" in the old testament septuagint is the phrase "son of man"- God calls ezekiel by this title- in hebrew it is "son of adam"- but in the septuagint it is "son of anthropos"- and in the new testament when jesus uses this title for himself- it is "son of anthropos"- but it means the same as ezekiel's title- "son of adam" in hebrew.

 Response:Sure, but again, this strengthens my point because even though the word ANQROPWS is used as a translation of Adam, you don't  argue that Ezekiel or Christ are comparing themselves to Adam.  You see here that this points to the fact that they are talking about each person being human. 
 
Apple; paul would have been very familiar with this usage- knowing both the hebrew scriptures, and the septuagint- so in phil. 2:7- he uses the word "anthropos" referring to "adam". comparing and contrasting jesus with adam. the one exalted himself and lost paradise, the other humbled himself and regained paradise. the comparison between jesus and adam is consistent throughout the new testament- paul calling jesus the latter adam.
 
- the apple

Response: Dude, you just refuted yourself because even in your example where you have direct one to one correlation between ANQRWPOS and ADAM from Hebrew to Greek, you don't argue that Christ and Ezekiel are calling themselves ADAM's son.  No instead you see that Adam = mankind and something generic.  Just like in Phil 2, Paul is saying that Christ made himself in likeness of mankind, not Adam.  If he had wanted to compare him to Adam, he would used the actual name Adam like he does when comparing Christ to Adam in Corinthians.
Response:
Kelton Graham
kgraham0938@...
Club Wolverine
Huron High School


----- Original Message -----
From: applsaucefactory@...
To: TrinityQuestion@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Wednesday, March 23, 2011 12:24:30 PM
Subject: Re: [TrinityQuestion] Re: Intro & Trinity questions @Apple

 

 
 
In a message dated 3/22/2011 10:18:04 P.M. Central Daylight Time, KGRAHAM0938@... writes:
Response: I think you are reading into the text again. 1) The transliteration ADAM is not in the text, since ADAM is a proper name, if Paul was comparing the two he would have used the actual proper name (Like he does elsewhere).  2) Paul is not quoting from the LXX.  3) You would have to explain how you figure one ANQTHROPOS = generic and the other use of the same term = a proper name.  And arguing that one is singular doesn't mean anything since it is just rendered, " a man."
xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
well, i know i will never convince you - you are pretty hardened in your trinity belief- you will have to have an aha! moment of your own. but anyway- for the sake of those reading this besides you
 
the fact of the matter is that the hebrew word "adam" occurs in 527 verses, but in only 24 of those verses is it translated "adam" in the new american standard - the other 523 verses (when it occurs in the septuagint), it is translated "anthropos" including the following verse
 
NAS  Genesis 2:7 Then the LORD God formed man (adam, anthropon) of dust from the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man (adam, anthropos) became a living being. 
 
the greek anthropos is the equivalent of the hebrew "adam". adam is never translated as "aner" or "arsen" in the septuagint. and there is no separate hebrew word for "man"- the greek used the transliteration, "adam" and the translation "anthropos"- but the hebrew has only "adam". the hebrew equivalent of "aner" is "ish". and the hebrew equivalent of "arsen" is "zakar".
 
a good example of where adam is translated as "anthropos" in the old testament septuagint is the phrase "son of man"- God calls ezekiel by this title- in hebrew it is "son of adam"- but in the septuagint it is "son of anthropos"- and in the new testament when jesus uses this title for himself- it is "son of anthropos"- but it means the same as ezekiel's title- "son of adam" in hebrew.
 
paul would have been very familiar with this usage- knowing both the hebrew scriptures, and the septuagint- so in phil. 2:7- he uses the word "anthropos" referring to "adam". comparing and contrasting jesus with adam. the one exalted himself and lost paradise, the other humbled himself and regained paradise. the comparison between jesus and adam is consistent throughout the new testament- paul calling jesus the latter adam.
 
- the apple


#33725 From: "peters" <pashanab@...>
Date: Fri Mar 25, 2011 7:27 am
Subject: Re: Intro & Trinity questions @ Johannwilhelm
pashanab
Send Email Send Email
 
<<So christ is a literal son, a christian is not?>>
xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
jesus is the literal son of God and of mary-
------------------------------------------
You mean ofliteral son of both not of God? That which makes him literal is Mary?


xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
christians are adopted sons of God and no relation at all with mary, except, of
course, that we are all sons and daughters of eve.

NAS  Romans 8:15 For you have not received a spirit of slavery leading to fear
again, but you have received a spirit of adoption as sons by which we cry out,
"Abba! Father!"

NAS  Romans 8:23 And not only this, but also we ourselves, having the first
fruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting eagerly
for our adoption as sons, the redemption of our body.

NAS  Galatians 4:5 in order that He might redeem those who were under the Law,
that we might receive the adoption as sons.

NAS  Ephesians 1:5 He predestined us to adoption as sons through Jesus Christ to
Himself, according to the kind intention of His will,
-------------------------------
not only Eve, but Eve and Adam, the Father and mother of the children of God

<<Three mothers of the One mother Eve, I would suppose.>>
xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
three descendants of the one mother- eve
-------------------------------
sons of Sarah, sons of hagar and sons of Mary, whose mother is Eve.

<<God choose Mary to be the mother of christ. and every christ is a child of
Mary and a child of God.>>
xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
God chose mary to be the mother of the christ (i.e. the anointed one), but every
anointed one is not a child of mary- but every anointed one is a child of God.
------------------------------
God chose Mary to be the mother of believers in jesus her son.

<<You believe that Jesus is man yet you doubt you are a christ.>>
xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
i am a christ (an anointed one), but i am not the christ (the anointed one)-
only jesus is the anointed one.
------------------------
Jesus is THE first begotton, The Christ. But you are as well a christ if you are
an anointed one.

<<yes christian and jews and moslems, literal and spiritual sons and daughters
of abraham,>>
xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
only christians are the true spiritual sons and daughters of abraham
-------------------
all believers in the God of abraham including literal sons.


<<There are hebrew Jews, and hebrew Christians. I mean Hebrew by language.>>
xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
there are jews who do not speak hebrew, and there are those who speak hebrew and
are not jews. there are jews who reject christ and therefore are not
christian,and there are jews who accept christ and therefore are christian.
-----------------------
All Jews understand Hebrew if they do not speak it.
All Jews reject Jesus as the Christ.
and yes Jews who accept the Christ are no longer jews, they are chrsits, as you
said 'therefore are christians'.

<<I am saying, I am an Arab, I am a Palestinian and I am a Christian. Who am
I?>>
xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx\
x
arab, palestinian, and christian are three titles you identify with- but you are
only one person.
--------------------------------
As God has three titles, Father, Son, and Spirit yet a HOLY ONE.

a stone

- the apple

#33726 From: applsaucefactory@...
Date: Fri Mar 25, 2011 7:39 am
Subject: Re: Re: Intro & Trinity questions @Apple
applsaucefac...
Send Email Send Email
 
 
 
In a message dated 3/24/2011 10:12:58 P.M. Central Daylight Time, KGRAHAM0938@... writes:
 
<<Dude, you just refuted yourself because.."
 
xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
when you actually address the points and offer a refutation, i will respond. as long as you just keep living in denial and repeating yourself- a response is futile.
 
- the apple 

#33727 From: applsaucefactory@...
Date: Fri Mar 25, 2011 8:18 am
Subject: Re: Re: Intro & Trinity questions @ Johannwilhelm
applsaucefac...
Send Email Send Email
 
 
 
In a message dated 3/25/2011 2:27:22 A.M. Central Daylight Time, pashanab@... writes:
 
<<You mean ofliteral son of both not of God?>>
xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
jesus was God's son by virtue of being created by him just like adam was God's son by virtue of being crated by him. jesus is mary's son, because God uses her uterus to create jesus and give birth to him.
 
<< That which makes him literal is Mary?>>
xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
jesus would be the literal son of God even if God would have taken another route and not used mary's uterus.
 
<<not only Eve, but Eve and Adam, the Father and mother of the children of God>>
xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
well, we were talking about eve, but yes, adam is the father of all humankind- but they are not the father and mother of the children of God- a lot of adam and eve's offspring were born to the daughters of men rather than to the sons of God- and because of adam's fall, all their offspring are born estranged from God- it is only through jesus, the anointed one, that we can be adopted back into God's family and once more be His sons and daughters.
 
<<sons of Sarah, sons of hagar and sons of Mary, whose mother is Eve.>>
xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
mary had 5 sons (of who jeus was one) and at least 2 daughters-  
 
matt 13:55 "Is this not the carpenter's son? Is not His mother called Mary? And His brothers James, Joses, Simon, and Judas? 56 "And His sisters, are they not all with us? Where then did this Man get all these things?"
 
we know that jesus did not have any descendants (davinci code aside)- we do not know about his brothers and sisters. anyway, this does not make mary the mother of all christians.
 
<<God chose Mary to be the mother of believers in jesus her son.>>
xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
scripture never says this
 
<<Jesus is THE first begotton, The Christ. But you are as well a christ if you are an anointed one.>>
xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
yes, i am an anointed one (a christ), but i am not the christ
 
<<all believers in the God of abraham including literal sons.>>
xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
the scriptures tell us that whoever believes in God must also believe in His son- if not they are antichrist
 
1 john 5: 9 If we receive the witness of men, the witness of God is greater; for this is the witness of God which He has testified of His Son. 10 He who believes in the Son of God has the witness in himself; he who does not believe God has made Him a liar, because he has not believed the testimony that God has given of His Son. 11 And this is the testimony: that God has given us eternal life, and this life is in His Son. 12 He who has the Son has life; he who does not have the Son of God does not have life. 13 These things I have written to you who believe in the name of the Son of God, that you may know that you have eternal life, and that you may continue to believe in the name of the Son of God.
 
1 john 2:22 Who is a liar but he who denies that Jesus is the Christ? He is antichrist who denies the Father and the Son. 23 Whoever denies the Son does not have the Father either; he who acknowledges the Son has the Father also. 24 Therefore let that abide in you which you heard from the beginning. If what you heard from the beginning abides in you, you also will abide in the Son and in the Father.
 
jews don't accept the son as messiah, and muslims say that God cannot have a son
 
<<all Jews understand Hebrew if they do not speak it.>>
xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
i am of german ancestry- and yet i understand very little german- i know jews who are the ame way with hebrew- they may know a few words- but they don't understand speech. growing up catholic- i was taught some latin- i still remember some of that latin, but i would not understand latin spoken to me i sentences or paragraphs.
 
<<All Jews reject Jesus as the Christ.>>
xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
no. lots of jews have accepted jesus as the messiah
 
<<and yes Jews who accept the Christ are no longer jews, they are chrsits, as you said 'therefore are christians'.>>
xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
jews don't stop being jews after they accept jesus as the mesiah and more than palestinians stop being palestinians after they accept jesus as messiah or germans stop being germans after they accept jesus as messiah.
 
<<As God has three titles, Father, Son, and Spirit yet a HOLY ONE.>>
xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
God is called Father i the scriptures, but He is never called "son" or "spirit"
 
God has a son, jesus; and God has spirit; but these are not titles.
 
- the apple

#33728 From: "peters" <pashanab@...>
Date: Fri Mar 25, 2011 2:33 pm
Subject: Re: Intro & Trinity questions @ Johannwilhelm
pashanab
Send Email Send Email
 
<<You mean literal son of both, not of God?>>
xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
jesus was God's son by virtue of being created by him just like adam was God's
son by virtue of being crated by him. jesus is mary's son, because God uses her
uterus to create jesus and give birth to him.
------------------------
Jesus is born, Adam created a son of God.

<< That which makes him literal is Mary?>>
xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
jesus would be the literal son of God even if God would have taken another route
and not used mary's uterus.
-----------------------------
You mean a third route? the route when He will apppear descending from the
heavens?

<<not only Eve, but Eve and Adam, the Father and mother of the children of God>>
xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
well, we were talking about eve, but yes, adam is the father of all humankind-
but they are not the father and mother of the children of God- a lot of adam and
eve's offspring were born to the daughters of men rather than to the sons of
God- and because of adam's fall, all their offspring are born estranged from
God- it is only through jesus, the anointed one, that we can be adopted back
into God's family and once more be His sons and daughters.
-------------------------------
You mean there are daughters of men and there are daughters of God, as there is
sons of men and sons of God?

what about the offspring of daughters of God and sons of Men?

After Noah and his three sons, there was a new beginning. God chose his family.

<<sons of Sarah, sons of hagar and sons of Mary, whose mother is Eve.>>
xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
mary had 5 sons (of who jeus was one) and at least 2 daughters-

matt 13:55 "Is this not the carpenter's son? Is not His mother called Mary? And
His brothers James, Joses, Simon, and Judas? 56 "And His sisters, are they not
all with us? Where then did this Man get all these things?"

we know that jesus did not have any descendants (davinci code aside)- we do not
know about his brothers and sisters. anyway, this does not make mary the mother
of all christians.
---------------------------
Mary was the chosen woman to carry the son of God, therefore she was The
daughter of God as Jesus is the SOn of God. Jesus is my brother for for i was
born a christ, in the Uterus of 'Mary' my mother.

<<God chose Mary to be the mother of believers in jesus her son.>>
xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
scripture never says this
------------------
Luke 1 28 The angel went to her and said, "Greetings, you who are highly
favored! The Lord is with you."

41 When Elizabeth heard Mary's greeting, the baby leaped in her womb, and
Elizabeth was filled with the Holy Spirit. 42 In a loud voice she exclaimed:
"Blessed are you among women, and blessed is the child you will bear! 43 But why
am I so favored, that the mother of my Lord should come to me? 44 As soon as the
sound of your greeting reached my ears, the baby in my womb leaped for joy. 45
Blessed is she who has believed that the Lord would fulfill his promises to
her!"

Mary was the woman blessed among women.

<<Jesus is THE first begotton, The Christ. But you are as well a christ if you
are an anointed one.>>
xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
yes, i am an anointed one (a christ), but i am not the christ
-------------
a christ never claimed you are the Christ!

<<all believers in the God of abraham including literal sons.>>
xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
the scriptures tell us that whoever believes in God must also believe in His
son- if not they are antichrist

1 john 5: 9 If we receive the witness of men, the witness of God is greater; for
this is the witness of God which He has testified of His Son. 10 He who believes
in the Son of God has the witness in himself; he who does not believe God has
made Him a liar, because he has not believed the testimony that God has given of
His Son. 11 And this is the testimony: that God has given us eternal life, and
this life is in His Son. 12 He who has the Son has life; he who does not have
the Son of God does not have life. 13 These things I have written to you who
believe in the name of the Son of God, that you may know that you have eternal
life, and that you may continue to believe in the name of the Son of God.

1 john 2:22 Who is a liar but he who denies that Jesus is the Christ? He is
antichrist who denies the Father and the Son. 23 Whoever denies the Son does not
have the Father either; he who acknowledges the Son has the Father also. 24
Therefore let that abide in you which you heard from the beginning. If what you
heard from the beginning abides in you, you also will abide in the Son and in
the Father.

jews don't accept the son as messiah, and muslims say that God cannot have a son
-----------------
Jews do not accept the Christ as the Messiah, yet they accept the Messiah is a
son of God.
Moslems accept jesus as the Christ,as son of God, yet they  do not accept jesus
as son of God.



<<All Jews reject Jesus as the Christ.>>
xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
no. lots of jews have accepted jesus as the messiah
--------------------
You mean todays Palestinian Christians?

<<and yes Jews who accept the Christ are no longer jews, they are chrsits, as
you said 'therefore are christians'.>>
xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
jews don't stop being jews after they accept jesus as the mesiah and more than
palestinians stop being palestinians after they accept jesus as messiah or
germans stop being germans after they accept jesus as messiah
-----------------------------------------
Palestinian by defenition is a christian, as Israeli is by defenition a Jew.

<<As God has three titles, Father, Son, and Spirit yet a HOLY ONE.>>
xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
God is called Father i the scriptures, but He is never called "son" or "spirit"

God has a son, jesus; and God has spirit; but these are not titles.

- the apple
------------------
In the Old Testament He was called Father, the new Testament He is called Son as
Spirit.

a stone

#33729 From: applsaucefactory@...
Date: Fri Mar 25, 2011 11:12 am
Subject: Re: Re: Intro & Trinity questions @ Johannwilhelm
applsaucefac...
Send Email Send Email
 
 
 
In a message dated 3/25/2011 9:34:20 A.M. Central Daylight Time, pashanab@... writes:
You mean there are daughters of men and there are daughters of God, as there is sons of men and sons of God?

what about the offspring of daughters of God and sons of Men?

After Noah and his three sons, there was a new beginning. God chose his family.
xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
adam and eve had many children, but the son of God line went through their son, seth. all other offspring of adam and eve are of the sons and daughters of men.
 
noah was of the son of God line, and that line continued through his son, shem.
 
<<Mary was the chosen woman to carry the son of God,>>
xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
true
 
<<therefore she was The daughter of God as Jesus is the SOn of God.>>
xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
mary was not the daughter of God- she was the daughter of heli and his wife- mary's conception was not like jesus'
 
<<Jesus is my brother for for i was born a christ, in the Uterus of 'Mary' my mother.>>
xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
jesus is your brother because of God's spirit, not by birth- and you were not born a christian (no one is)- you became a christian (an anointed one) when you repented, and accepted the blood of jesus for the propitiation of your sin
 
and you were born of your mother's uterus, not mary's- mary has been dead for 2000 years.
 
<<Luke 1 28 The angel went to her and said, "Greetings, you who are highly favored! The Lord is with you."

41 When Elizabeth heard Mary's greeting, the baby leaped in her womb, and Elizabeth was filled with the Holy Spirit. 42 In a loud voice she exclaimed: "Blessed are you among women, and blessed is the child you will bear! 43 But why am I so favored, that the mother of my Lord should come to me? 44 As soon as the sound of your greeting reached my ears, the baby in my womb leaped for joy. 45 Blessed is she who has believed that the Lord would fulfill his promises to her!"

Mary was the woman blessed among women.>>
xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
yes, blest, because she was to be the mother of God's anointed one (messiah, christ)- but this does not make her our mother
 
<<a christ never claimed you are the Christ!>>
xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
well, when you say that you are christ, instead of saying that you are a christ- there is a big difference between those two statements
 
<<all believers in the God of abraham including literal sons.>>
xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
<<Jews do not accept the Christ as the Messiah,>>
xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
since christ and messiah both mean the same thing- this statement is redundant- jews do not accept jesus as the messiah
 
<<yet they accept the Messiah is a son of God.>>
xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
yes, the phrase "son of God" is just another way of saying "messiah"
 
<<Moslems accept jesus as the Christ,as son of God, yet they do not accept jesus as son of God.>>
xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
moslems don't accept anybody as "son of God"- for it says right in the koran that God cannot have a son
 
<<You mean todays Palestinian Christians?>>
xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
no, i mean that there are lots of jews throughout the world who have accepted jesus as the messiah
 
<<Palestinian by defenition is a christian, as Israeli is by defenition a Jew.>>
xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
i don't mean to be educating you about your own country, me who lives half a world away- but the fact of the matter is that there are a lot more islamists who are palestinian than there are christian palestinians
 
and there are christians who are citizens of israel
 
<<In the Old Testament He was called Father, the new Testament He is called Son as Spirit.>>
xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
in the old testament YHVH God is called Father or compared to a Father a few times. but it is in the new that jesus teaches us strongly that God is our Father. however, God is never referred to as the son or to holy spirit. like i said, God has spirit, spirit is a quality of God, but spirit is never called God.
 
- the apple

#33730 From: "peters" <pashanab@...>
Date: Sat Mar 26, 2011 7:44 am
Subject: Re: Intro & Trinity questions @ Johannwilhelm
pashanab
Send Email Send Email
 
You mean there are daughters of men and there are daughters of God, as there
is sons of men and sons of God?

     what about the offspring of daughters of God and sons of Men?

     After Noah and his three sons, there was a new beginning. God chose his
family.

xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx\
xxxxxxxxx
adam and eve had many children, but the son of God line went through their son,
seth. all other offspring of adam and eve are of the sons and daughters of men.

noah was of the son of God line, and that line continued through his son, shem.
------------------------
Noah is your and mine blood line, the line of sons of God, surely not the only
begotton Son Jesus,  THE Christ

<<Mary was the chosen woman to carry the son of God,>>
xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx\
xxxxxxxxx
true

<<therefore she was The daughter of God as Jesus is the SOn of God.>>
xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx\
xxxxxxx
mary was not the daughter of God- she was the daughter of heli and his wife-
mary's conception was not like jesus'.
------------------
the line of sons and daughters of God, is thru Mary the blest.

<<Jesus is my brother for for i was born a christ, in the Uterus of 'Mary' my
mother.>>
xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx\
xxxxxxxxxxx
jesus is your brother because of God's spirit, not by birth- and you were not
born a christian (no one is)- you became a christian (an anointed one) when you
repented, and accepted the blood of jesus for the propitiation of your sin

and you were born of your mother's uterus, not mary's- mary has been dead for
2000 years.
------------------------
One becomes a christian for one is annointed by Jesus son of Mary.

<<Luke 1 28 The angel went to her and said, "Greetings, you who are highly
favored! The Lord is with you."

41 When Elizabeth heard Mary's greeting, the baby leaped in her womb, and
Elizabeth was filled with the Holy Spirit. 42 In a loud voice she exclaimed:
"Blessed are you among women, and blessed is the child you will bear! 43 But why
am I so favored, that the mother of my Lord should come to me? 44 As soon as the
sound of your greeting reached my ears, the baby in my womb leaped for joy. 45
Blessed is she who has believed that the Lord would fulfill his promises to
her!"

Mary was the woman blessed among women.>>
xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx\
xxxxxxxxx
yes, blest, because she was to be the mother of God's anointed one (messiah,
christ)- but this does not make her our mother.
--------------------
My mother was a blest among women, a Mary.

<<a christ, never claimed you are the Christ!>>
xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx\
xxxxxxxx
well, when you say that you are christ, instead of saying that you are a christ-
there is a big difference between those two statements
----------------------
Sorry for the confusion.

<<all believers in the God of abraham including literal sons.>>
<<Jews do not accept the Christ as the Messiah,>>
xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx\
xxxxxxxxxx
since christ and messiah both mean the same thing- this statement is redundant-
jews do not accept jesus as the messiah
---------------------
I meant Jesus the Man not Christ his spirit.

<<yet they accept the Messiah is a son of God.>>
xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx\
xxxxxxxxx
yes, the phrase "son of God" is just another way of saying "messiah"
--------------------------
yes another way of saying 'christ' not only christian.

<<Moslems accept jesus as the Christ,as son of God, yet they do not accept jesus
as son of God.>>
xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx\
xxxxxxxxx
moslems don't accept anybody as "son of God"- for it says right in the koran
that God cannot have a son
---------------------



<<You mean todays Palestinian Christians?>>
xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx\
xxxxxxxx
no, i mean that there are lots of jews throughout the world who have accepted
jesus as the messiah


<<Palestinian by defenition is a christian, as Israeli is by defenition a Jew.>>
xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx\
xxxxxxxxxx
i don't mean to be educating you about your own country, me who lives half a
world away- but the fact of the matter is that there are a lot more islamists
who are palestinian than there are christian palestinians
------------------------------------------
those whom you call Islamist Palestinians believe Jesus is the Christ.


and there are christians who are citizens of israel
-------------------
Those who are called Arab Christians, Palestinians.

<<In the Old Testament He was called Father, the new Testament He is called Son
as Spirit.>>
xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx\
xxxxxxxxxx
in the old testament YHVH God is called Father or compared to a Father a few
times. but it is in the new that jesus teaches us strongly that God is our
Father. however, God is never referred to as the son or to holy spirit. like i
said, God has spirit, spirit is a quality of God, but spirit is never called
God.

- the apple
----------------
Like I said God is our Father, God is our Son, God is our Spirit.

#33731 From: applsaucefactory@...
Date: Sat Mar 26, 2011 9:55 am
Subject: Re: Re: Intro & Trinity questions @ Johannwilhelm
applsaucefac...
Send Email Send Email
 
 
 
In a message dated 3/26/2011 2:44:45 A.M. Central Daylight Time, pashanab@... writes:
 
<<Noah is your and mine blood line, the line of sons of God, surely not the only begotton Son Jesus, THE Christ>>
xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
luke's geneology that he recoprds in the 3rd chapter of his gospel shows that the bloodline of messiah starts with adam and goes through noah and seth right up to mary.
 
<<the line of sons and daughters of God, is thru Mary the blest.>>
xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
scripture does not teach this
 
<<One becomes a christian for one is annointed by Jesus son of Mary.>>
xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
one is anointed christian by God, not jesus
 
<<I meant Jesus the Man not Christ his spirit.>>
xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
christ is not spirit- a christ is one who has been anointed- jesus the man, and jesus the anounted one is the same person
 
<<those whom you call Islamist Palestinians believe Jesus is the Christ.>>
xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
but they do not believe that he is the son of God, and that makes all the difference
 
NAS  1 John 5:10 The one who believes in the Son of God has the witness in himself; the one who does not believe God has made Him a liar, because he has not believed in the witness that God has borne concerning His Son.
 
<<Like I said God is our Father,>>
xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
yes, scripture teaches this
 
<<God is our Son, God is our Spirit.>>
xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
no, scripture does not teach this
 
scripture teaches that the man jesus is the son, and God's spirit is our spirit
 
- the apple

#33732 From: KGRAHAM0938@...
Date: Sun Mar 27, 2011 2:51 am
Subject: Re: Re: Intro & Trinity questions @Apple
kgraham0938
Send Email Send Email
 
when you actually address the points and offer a refutation, i will respond. as long as you just keep living in denial and repeating yourself- a response is futile.
 
- the apple

Response:  Well lets look at this way.  Lets say that ANQRWPOS here actually refers to Adam.  It still does not help you and here is why.

1:No where is it mentioned that Adam is being compared to Christ.  There is no mention of Adam being disobedient.
2:  All it would be saying is that Christ humbled himself by looking like Adam.
.... being born in the likeness of men. (Phi 2:7 ESV) 
3: So all Paul would be saying is that Christ humbled himself and now looks like Adam or is found in the likeness of Adam.
4: On the positive side, when Paul actually does compare Christ to Adam ( 1 Cor 15:45) he actually uses the transliteration of Adam's name in the Greek.


Regards


Kelton Graham
kgraham0938@...
Club Wolverine
Huron High School



----- Original Message -----
From: applsaucefactory@...
To: TrinityQuestion@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Friday, March 25, 2011 7:39:34 AM
Subject: Re: [TrinityQuestion] Re: Intro & Trinity questions @Apple

 

 
 
In a message dated 3/24/2011 10:12:58 P.M. Central Daylight Time, KGRAHAM0938@... writes:
 
<<Dude, you just refuted yourself because.."
 
xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
when you actually address the points and offer a refutation, i will respond. as long as you just keep living in denial and repeating yourself- a response is futile.
 
- the apple 


#33733 From: "peters" <pashanab@...>
Date: Sun Mar 27, 2011 8:41 am
Subject: Re: Intro & Trinity questions @ Johannwilhelm
pashanab
Send Email Send Email
 
<<Noah is your and mine blood line, the line of sons of God, surely not the only
begotton Son Jesus, THE Christ>>
xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
luke's geneology that he records in the 3rd chapter of his gospel shows that the
bloodline of messiah starts with adam and goes through noah and seth right up to
mary.
--------------
it does not stop at Mary. It continues thru her children, Jesus being the first
begotton. surely the christs are the others.

<<the line of sons and daughters of God, is thru Mary the blest.>>
xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
scripture does not teach this
-----------
It teaches that my brother Jesus is of this blood line

<<One becomes a christian for one is annointed by Jesus son of Mary.>>
xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
one is anointed christian by God, not jesus
-----------------------
whether It Jesus who chooses me or whether it is God it realy makes no
difference. God will accept his Son's Judgement.

<<I meant Jesus the Man not Christ his spirit.>>
xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
christ is not spirit- a christ is one who has been anointed- jesus the man, and
jesus the anointed one is the same person
---------------------
It is the spirit of the annointer (The Christ) that which annoints us as
christs.

<<those whom you call Islamist Palestinians believe Jesus is the Christ.>>
xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
but they do not believe that he is the son of God, and that makes all the
difference

NAS  1 John 5:10 The one who believes in the Son of God has the witness in
himself; the one who does not believe God has made Him a liar, because he has
not believed in the witness that God has borne concerning His Son.
---------------------------------------
they believe He is the Christ, born of the blest Mary.
Palestinians believe Mary is our Mother, as Abraham is our Father.

<<Like I said God is our Father,>>
xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
yes, scripture teaches this

<<God is our Son, God is our Spirit.>>
xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
no, scripture does not teach this

scripture teaches that the man jesus is the son, and God's spirit is our spirit

- the apple
------------------------
God is scripture teaches that we are Jesus brothers and sisters, that we
believers in the God of Abraham, the God of Jesus, the GOd of Mary
believe in One God who has a living family.

a stone

#33734 From: applsaucefactory@...
Date: Sun Mar 27, 2011 9:54 am
Subject: Re: Re: Intro & Trinity questions @Apple
applsaucefac...
Send Email Send Email
 
 
 
In a message dated 3/26/2011 9:51:59 P.M. Central Daylight Time, KGRAHAM0938@... writes:
 
<<1:No where is it mentioned that Adam is being compared to Christ.  There is no mention of Adam being disobedient.>>
xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
you are putting restrictions on the text that are unfounded- paul does not have to say- o.k. now i am going to make a comparison in order for him to do so- the fact that he makes reference to both jesus and adam (anthropos) and then goes on to make the comparison is enough. paul had already discussed how jesus was the latter adam in 1 corinthians, and drawn a comparison between the two in romans. the philippians would have been very familiar with paul's theology. paul having spent considerable time there.
 
<<2:  All it would be saying is that Christ humbled himself by looking like Adam. .... being born in the likeness of men. (Phi 2:7 ESV)>>
xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
not just simply looking like adam but in the same image as adam- only adam and jesus were in this image, the image of God- the rest of humankind (anthropon) fell from this image. so that sets up the comparison- the context here is humility- so paul is contrasting adam (anthropos) with jesus - adam found himself in the image (form) of God, and exalted himself- we know that to be true from what we are told in genesis- jesus found himself in the image of God, and humbled himself- therefore paul tells us to "NAS  Philippians 2:5 Have this attitude in yourselves which was also in Christ Jesus". there are no other human beings who fit into this comparison. adam and jesus were the only two human beings who were created without a sin nature. the rest of us were born with fallen sin natures.
 
<<3: So all Paul would be saying is that Christ humbled himself and now looks like Adam or is found in the likeness of Adam.>>
xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
what paul says is that jesus found himself in the same image of God that adam found himself in- it is after they both found themselves in this image that they go their different paths- adam exalted himself (NAS  Genesis 3:5 "For God knows that in the day you eat from it your eyes will be opened, and you will be like God, knowing good and evil.") he wanted to be like God (even though he was already in the image of God), and as a result of his exalting of himself, he lost paradise and brought sin and death into the world. on the other hand, (again the context here is a lesson on humility)- jesus found himself in the image of God, and he humbled himself (vrs. 7- and therefore being found in the image of anthropon (adam), he humbled himself)- therefore YHVH God exalts him (NAS  Philippians 2:9 Therefore also God highly exalted Him, and bestowed on Him the name which is above every name,) 
 
<<4: On the positive side, when Paul actually does compare Christ to Adam ( 1 Cor 15:45) he actually uses the transliteration of Adam's name in the Greek.>>
xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
both passages are a comparison between the two- it is just that in one passage paul uses the greek transliteration of the hebrew "adam", and in the other case he uses the greek translation of the hebrew "adam" which, of course, is anthropon. if he would have been writing in hebrew instead of greek, he would have used the hebrew "adam" in both passages.
 
- the apple  
 
 
 
 



#33735 From: applsaucefactory@...
Date: Sun Mar 27, 2011 10:19 am
Subject: Re: Re: Intro & Trinity questions @ Johannwilhelm
applsaucefac...
Send Email Send Email
 
 
 
In a message dated 3/27/2011 3:41:59 A.M. Central Daylight Time, pashanab@... writes:
 
<<it does not stop at Mary. It continues thru her children, Jesus being the first begotton. surely the christs are the others.>>
xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
that's right, it does not stop with mary- it stops with jesus- we know that jesus did not have any children- we do not know if mary's other children, James and Joseph and Simon and Judas, or his sisters had any children. if they did, the messiah blood line did not continue through them. we are children of God, and brothers and sisters of jesus, but not by blood line- we are brothers and sisters by adoption- an adoption that is brought about by God's spirit.
 
<<It teaches that my brother Jesus is of this blood line>>
xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
yes, it does, and the blood line stops with him
 
<<It is the spirit of the annointer (The Christ) that which annoints us as christs.>>
xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
actually, we are anointed with God's spirit
 
NAS  2 Corinthians 1:21 Now He who establishes us with you in Christ and anointed us is God,
 
<<they believe He is the Christ, born of the blest Mary.>>
xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
but they do not believe that he is the son of God
 
<<Palestinians believe Mary is our Mother, as Abraham is our Father.>>
xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
well, if they believe that, they are incorrect for the scriptures do not teach that- no people or person is the authority- only the scriptures
 
<<God is scripture teaches that we are Jesus brothers and sisters,>>
xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
yes, by God's spirit, by adoption
 
<<that we believers in the God of Abraham, the God of Jesus, the GOd of Mary believe in One God who has a living family.>>
xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
yes, God has a family, and jesus, Abraham, mary, and all the saints who have ever lived, are living and who will ever live are all part of that family- and some day, jesus will appear and the dead shall rise, and we will all be with jesus.
 
- the apple



#33736 From: "peters" <pashanab@...>
Date: Sun Mar 27, 2011 8:37 pm
Subject: Re: Intro & Trinity questions @ Johannwilhelm
pashanab
Send Email Send Email
 
<<it does not stop at Mary. It continues thru her children, Jesus being the
first begotton. surely the christs are the others.>>
xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
that's right, it does not stop with mary- it stops with jesus- we know that
jesus did not have any children- we do not know if mary's other children, James
and Joseph and Simon and Judas, or his sisters had any children. if they did,
the messiah blood line did not continue through them. we are children of God,
and brothers and sisters of jesus, but not by blood line- we are brothers and
sisters by adoption- an adoption that is brought about by God's spirit.
  ----------------------------------
1 John 9 No one who is born of God will continue to sin, because God's seed
remains in them; they cannot go on sinning, because they have been born of God.

Acts 17:29 "Therefore since we are God's offspring, we should not think that the
divine being is like gold or silver or stone—an image made by human design and
skill.


<<It teaches that my brother Jesus is of this blood line>>
xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
yes, it does, and the blood line stops with him
--------------------------
It does not stop with Jesus, .

Ephesian 2 13 But now in Christ Jesus you who once were far away have been
brought near by the blood of Christ.

<<It is the spirit of the annointer (The Christ) that which annoints us as
christs.>>
xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
actually, we are anointed with God's spirit
-------------------
Same stuff.

NAS  2 Corinthians 1:21 Now He who establishes us with you in Christ and
anointed us is God,


<<Palestinians believe Mary is our Mother, as Abraham is our Father.>>
xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
well, if they believe that, they are incorrect for the scriptures do not teach
that- no people or person is the authority- only the scriptures
-----------------------------
Again scriptures teach that we are of the seed of Abraham, therefore brothers
and sisters.

<<God is scripture teaches that we are Jesus brothers and sisters,>>
xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
yes, by God's spirit, by adoption
-----------------------------
Refer to scripture above

<<that we, the believers in the God of Abraham, the God of Jesus, the GOd of
Mary, believe in One God who has a living family.>>
xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
yes, God has a family, and jesus, Abraham, mary, and all the saints who have
ever lived, are living and who will ever live are all part of that family- and
some day, jesus will appear and the dead shall rise, and we will all be with
jesus.

- the apple
---------------
AAmeen

a stone

#33737 From: applsaucefactory@...
Date: Sun Mar 27, 2011 7:43 pm
Subject: Re: Re: Intro & Trinity questions @ Johannwilhelm
applsaucefac...
Send Email Send Email
 
 
 
In a message dated 3/27/2011 3:37:18 P.M. Central Daylight Time, pashanab@... writes:
 
<<It does not stop with Jesus, .

Ephesian 2 13 But now in Christ Jesus you who once were far away have been brought near by the blood of Christ.>>
xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
yes, we are brought near - but we are brought near by spirit, not by blood
 
<<Again scriptures teach that we are of the seed of Abraham, therefore brothers and sisters.>>
xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
again, we are spiritual seed, not blood
 
you are confusing and mixing blood line with spiritual line- flesh with spirit- and as paul says
 
NAS  Galatians 5:17 For the flesh sets its desire against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh; for these are in opposition to one another, so that you may not do the things that you please.
 
- the apple 

#33738 From: KGRAHAM0938@...
Date: Tue Mar 29, 2011 3:02 am
Subject: Re: Re: Intro & Trinity questions @Apple
kgraham0938
Send Email Send Email
 
Apple: You are putting restrictions on the text that are unfounded- paul does not have to say- o.k. now i am going to make a comparison in order for him to do so- the fact that he makes reference to both jesus and adam (anthropos) and then goes on to make the comparison is enough. paul had already discussed how jesus was the latter adam in 1 corinthians, and drawn a comparison between the two in romans. the philippians would have been very familiar with paul's theology. paul having spent considerable time there.

Response: LOL, the restrictions that I am putting on the text is that in order for their to be an actual comparison there has to be an actual comparison.  Paul does not reference Adam at all here.  And if he does, all he is saying is that Jesus looked like him.  There is nothing about Adam straying away or being disobedient here.  Their isn't even a comparison at all, all that is being discussed is Jesus' humility and what took place with him.  So there are no restrictions except reading what the text actually tells us.
 
xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
Apple: not just simply looking like adam but in the same image as adam- only adam and jesus were in this image, the image of God- the rest of humankind (anthropon) fell from this image. so that sets up the comparison- the context here is humility- so paul is contrasting adam (anthropos) with jesus - adam found himself in the image (form) of God, and exalted himself- we know that to be true from what we are told in genesis- jesus found himself in the image of God, and humbled himself- therefore paul tells us to "NAS  Philippians 2:5 Have this attitude in yourselves which was also in Christ Jesus". there are no other human beings who fit into this comparison. adam and jesus were the only two human beings who were created without a sin nature. the rest of us were born with fallen sin natures.

Response: Except Paul doesn't contrast Adam with Jesus here at all.  You are reading that idea into the text.  Doesn't mention Adam being in the form of God.  What is actually going on is that Paul is talking to the church at Phillipi and just reminding them that selfishness hurts everyone.

2: 3 Do nothing from rivalry or conceit, but in humility count others more significant than yourselves. 4 Let each of you look not only to his own interests, but also to the interests of others.

In other words, Paul is dealing with matters of church living or sanctification in order to edify the body so they can operate fully as the body of Christ.  Nothing to do with Adam.
 
xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
what paul says is that jesus found himself in the same image of God that adam found himself in- it is after they both found themselves in this image that they go their different paths- adam exalted himself (NAS  Genesis 3:5 "For God knows that in the day you eat from it your eyes will be opened, and you will be like God, knowing good and evil.") he wanted to be like God (even though he was already in the image of God), and as a result of his exalting of himself, he lost paradise and brought sin and death into the world. on the other hand, (again the context here is a lesson on humility)- jesus found himself in the image of God, and he humbled himself (vrs. 7- and therefore being found in the image of anthropon (adam), he humbled himself)- therefore YHVH God exalts him (NAS  Philippians 2:9 Therefore also God highly exalted Him, and bestowed on Him the name which is above every name,)

Response: Except Paul does not mention Genesis nor Adam.What Paul is actually talking about is church living. 

 Philippians 1:27 Only let your manner of life be worthy of the gospel of Christ, so that whether I come and see you or am absent, I may hear of you that you are standing firm in one spirit, with one mind striving side by side for the faith of the gospel,

Later on he tells them

 Philippians 2:2 complete my joy by being of the same mind, having the same love, being in full accord and of one mind. (Phi 2:2 ESV)

Nothing to do with Adam.
 
xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
Apple: both passages are a comparison between the two- it is just that in one passage paul uses the greek transliteration of the hebrew "adam", and in the other case he uses the greek translation of the hebrew "adam" which, of course, is anthropon. if he would have been writing in hebrew instead of greek, he would have used the hebrew "adam" in both passages.
 
- the apple  
 
Response: Nope, because in Philippians, Paul is addressing the church in order that they may function properly towards one another.  This has zilch to do with Adam and the fall.  If you can show me an actual comparison in the actual text, you'd have an argument.  But you are just reading this one into the text.
 
 
 




Kelton Graham
kgraham0938@...
Club Wolverine
Huron High School


----- Original Message -----
From: applsaucefactory@...
To: TrinityQuestion@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Sunday, March 27, 2011 9:54:40 AM
Subject: Re: [TrinityQuestion] Re: Intro & Trinity questions @Apple

 

 
 
In a message dated 3/26/2011 9:51:59 P.M. Central Daylight Time, KGRAHAM0938@... writes:
 
<<1:No where is it mentioned that Adam is being compared to Christ.  There is no mention of Adam being disobedient.>>
xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
you are putting restrictions on the text that are unfounded- paul does not have to say- o.k. now i am going to make a comparison in order for him to do so- the fact that he makes reference to both jesus and adam (anthropos) and then goes on to make the comparison is enough. paul had already discussed how jesus was the latter adam in 1 corinthians, and drawn a comparison between the two in romans. the philippians would have been very familiar with paul's theology. paul having spent considerable time there.
 
<<2:  All it would be saying is that Christ humbled himself by looking like Adam. .... being born in the likeness of men. (Phi 2:7 ESV)>>
xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
not just simply looking like adam but in the same image as adam- only adam and jesus were in this image, the image of God- the rest of humankind (anthropon) fell from this image. so that sets up the comparison- the context here is humility- so paul is contrasting adam (anthropos) with jesus - adam found himself in the image (form) of God, and exalted himself- we know that to be true from what we are told in genesis- jesus found himself in the image of God, and humbled himself- therefore paul tells us to "NAS  Philippians 2:5 Have this attitude in yourselves which was also in Christ Jesus". there are no other human beings who fit into this comparison. adam and jesus were the only two human beings who were created without a sin nature. the rest of us were born with fallen sin natures.
 
<<3: So all Paul would be saying is that Christ humbled himself and now looks like Adam or is found in the likeness of Adam.>>
xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
what paul says is that jesus found himself in the same image of God that adam found himself in- it is after they both found themselves in this image that they go their different paths- adam exalted himself (NAS  Genesis 3:5 "For God knows that in the day you eat from it your eyes will be opened, and you will be like God, knowing good and evil.") he wanted to be like God (even though he was already in the image of God), and as a result of his exalting of himself, he lost paradise and brought sin and death into the world. on the other hand, (again the context here is a lesson on humility)- jesus found himself in the image of God, and he humbled himself (vrs. 7- and therefore being found in the image of anthropon (adam), he humbled himself)- therefore YHVH God exalts him (NAS  Philippians 2:9 Therefore also God highly exalted Him, and bestowed on Him the name which is above every name,) 
 
<<4: On the positive side, when Paul actually does compare Christ to Adam ( 1 Cor 15:45) he actually uses the transliteration of Adam's name in the Greek.>>
xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
both passages are a comparison between the two- it is just that in one passage paul uses the greek transliteration of the hebrew "adam", and in the other case he uses the greek translation of the hebrew "adam" which, of course, is anthropon. if he would have been writing in hebrew instead of greek, he would have used the hebrew "adam" in both passages.
 
- the apple  
 
 
 
 



#33739 From: "peters" <pashanab@...>
Date: Tue Mar 29, 2011 12:11 pm
Subject: Re: Intro & Trinity questions @ Johannwilhelm
pashanab
Send Email Send Email
 
<<It does not stop with Jesus, .

Ephesian 2 13 But now in Christ Jesus you who once were far away have been
brought near by the blood of Christ.>>
xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
yes, we are brought near - but we are brought near by spirit, not by blood
----------------------------
Luke 19And he took bread, and gave thanks, and brake it, and gave unto them,
saying, This is my body which is given for you: this do in remembrance of me.
20Likewise also the cup after supper, saying, This cup is the new testament in
my blood, which is shed for you.

<<Again scriptures teach that we are of the seed of Abraham, therefore brothers
and sisters.>>
xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
again, we are spiritual seed, not blood

you are confusing and mixing blood line with spiritual line- flesh with spirit-
and as paul says

NAS  Galatians 5:17 For the flesh sets its desire against the Spirit, and the
Spirit against the flesh; for these are in opposition to one another, so that
you may not do the things that you please.

- the apple
----------------
They are in opposition as in two poles of the one magnet.

1 John 4: 2Hereby know ye the Spirit of God: Every spirit that confesseth that
Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is of God: 3And every spirit that confesseth
not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is not of God: and this is that
spirit of antichrist, whereof ye have heard that it should come; and even now
already is it in the world.

stone

#33740 From: applsaucefactory@...
Date: Tue Mar 29, 2011 10:13 am
Subject: Re: Re: Intro & Trinity questions @Apple
applsaucefac...
Send Email Send Email
 
 
 
In a message dated 3/28/2011 10:03:00 P.M. Central Daylight Time, KGRAHAM0938@... writes:
This has zilch to do with Adam and the fall.  If you can show me an actual comparison in the actual text, you'd have an argument.  But you are just reading this one into the text.
xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
well, i have shown you- now you are just in denial- so when you have a scriptural argument against- let me know- you did not rebut any of my argument- you just denied it.
 
- the apple
 

 

#33741 From: applsaucefactory@...
Date: Tue Mar 29, 2011 10:23 am
Subject: Re: Re: Intro & Trinity questions @ Johannwilhelm
applsaucefac...
Send Email Send Email
 
 
 
In a message dated 3/29/2011 7:12:12 A.M. Central Daylight Time, pashanab@... writes:
 
<<Luke 19And he took bread, and gave thanks, and brake it, and gave unto them, saying, This is my body which is given for you: this do in remembrance of me. 20Likewise also the cup after supper, saying, This cup is the new testament in my blood, which is shed for you.>>
xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
again, this is not talking about genetic blood lines- this is talking about sacrificial blood
 
<<They are in opposition as in two poles of the one magnet.

1 John 4: 2Hereby know ye the Spirit of God: Every spirit that confesseth that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is of God: 3And every spirit that confesseth not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is not of God: and this is that spirit of antichrist, whereof ye have heard that it should come; and even now already is it in the world.>>
xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
no, they are in opposition as the opposite ends of two separate magnets- the ends of the same magnet cannot be in opposition because they are the same magnet
 
- the apple



#33742 From: KGRAHAM0938@...
Date: Tue Mar 29, 2011 3:28 pm
Subject: Re: Re: Intro & Trinity questions @Apple
kgraham0938
Send Email Send Email
 
Apple:well, i have shown you- now you are just in denial- so when you have a scriptural argument against- let me know- you did not rebut any of my argument- you just denied it.
 
- the apple


Response: Sure no problem.  Lets go  to Phil 1.27 -30. The topic here is suffering, not Adam.

ESV  Philippians 1:29 For it has been granted to you that for the sake of Christ you should not only believe in him but also suffer for his sake,  1:30 engaged in the same conflict that you saw I had and now hear that I still have.

Paul then goes on to discuss unity in Christ (nothing still to do with Adam), this unity in Christ gives us encouragement, comfort, fellowship, and compassion.

ESV  Philippians 2:1 So if there is any encouragement in Christ, any comfort from love, any participation in the Spirit, any affection and sympathy,

Paul then encourages them to make his joy complete by being of one mind and to live in harmony. Maintain the same love, united in spirit, intent on one purpose. Be filled with joy.

The only way to do the above is to dismiss sin, particularly selfishness.  The only way to overcome that is to regard others as more important than yourself (still nothing to do with Adam).

ESV  Philippians 2:3 Do nothing from rivalry or conceit, but in humility count others more significant than yourselves.

And then the ultimate example of this of course is Christ.

So there is no comparison going on here at all.  Rather a strong desire for the people to be unified and together and full of joy. Bringing up Adam here would not fit well with the context because this is about unity amongst the church of God.

So your challenge has been meet.
 

Kelton Graham
kgraham0938@...
Club Wolverine
Huron High School


----- Original Message -----
From: applsaucefactory@...
To: TrinityQuestion@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Tuesday, March 29, 2011 10:13:16 AM
Subject: Re: [TrinityQuestion] Re: Intro & Trinity questions @Apple

 

 
 
In a message dated 3/28/2011 10:03:00 P.M. Central Daylight Time, KGRAHAM0938@... writes:
This has zilch to do with Adam and the fall.  If you can show me an actual comparison in the actual text, you'd have an argument.  But you are just reading this one into the text.
xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
well, i have shown you- now you are just in denial- so when you have a scriptural argument against- let me know- you did not rebut any of my argument- you just denied it.
 
- the apple
 

 


#33743 From: applsaucefactory@...
Date: Tue Mar 29, 2011 3:45 pm
Subject: Re: Re: Intro & Trinity questions @Apple
applsaucefac...
Send Email Send Email
 
 
 
In a message dated 3/29/2011 10:28:54 A.M. Central Daylight Time, KGRAHAM0938@... writes:
Response: Sure no problem.  Lets go  to Phil 1.27 -30. The topic here is suffering, not Adam.

ESV  Philippians 1:29 For it has been granted to you that for the sake of Christ you should not only believe in him but also suffer for his sake,  1:30 engaged in the same conflict that you saw I had and now hear that I still have.

Paul then goes on to discuss unity in Christ (nothing still to do with Adam), this unity in Christ gives us encouragement, comfort, fellowship, and compassion.

ESV  Philippians 2:1 So if there is any encouragement in Christ, any comfort from love, any participation in the Spirit, any affection and sympathy,

Paul then encourages them to make his joy complete by being of one mind and to live in harmony. Maintain the same love, united in spirit, intent on one purpose. Be filled with joy.

The only way to do the above is to dismiss sin, particularly selfishne ss.  The only way to overcome that is to regard others as more important than yourself (still nothing to do with Adam).

ESV  Philippians 2:3 Do nothing from rivalry or conceit, but in humility count others more significant than yourselves.

And then the ultimate example of this of course is Christ.

So there is no comparison going on here at all.  Rather a strong desire for the people to be unified and together and full of joy. Bringing up Adam here would not fit well with the context because this is about unity amongst the church of God.

So your challenge has been meet.
xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
except that he does bring up adam here
 
in verse 3 he lets us know that he is going to talk about humility
 
NAS  Philippians 2:3 Do nothing from selfishness or empty conceit, but with humility of mind let each of you regard one another as more important than himself;
 
he continues about humility in verse 4
 
NAS  Philippians 2:4 do not merely look out for your own personal interests, but also for the interests of others.
 
then he holds jesus us as our example for humility
 
NAS  Philippians 2:5 Have this attitude in yourselves which was also in Christ Jesus,
 
then in verse 6 he mentions 2 things- one, jesus was in the image of God; and 2, jesus did not regard equality with God a thing to be grasped at
 
NAS  Philippians 2:6 who, although He existed in the form of God, did not regard equality with God a thing to be grasped,
 
so at this point we need to ask ourselves - what has this Got to do with us? none of us exist in the image of God, and none of us would ever dream of regarding equality with God as a thing to be grasped for- so we have to ask ourselves- who did? who is paul talking about here? what relevance does this have to us?
 
and the answer- only one other man has existed in the image of God- and that is adam - and only one other man in the bible is said to have regarded equality with God a thing to be grasped for- and that is adam- so what relevance does this have for us- we are descendants of adam- as paul tells us in his other writings- jesus is the latter adam- because of adam, we are all in sin, but because of the latter adam, we are all saved from our sin. this has to be a comparison with adam because there is no other man that fits the description.
 
then in verse 7&8 paul confirms this,
 
NAS  Philippians 2:7 but emptied Himself (i.e humbled himself), taking the form of a bond-servant, and being made in the likeness of men. 8 And being found in appearance as a man (adam), He humbled Himself by becoming obedient to the point of death, even death on a cross.
 
and this is the point that i made and the one you must address, not just deny.
 
philippians was written in greek, but paul was a hebrew whose birth tongue was aramaic, and who studied to be a pharisee- so he would have thought like a hebrew, not a greek, and he would have been fluent in hebrew. and if he would have been speaking in hebrew, the word he would have used here for "man" would have been "adam". that is the point you must address. i have already shown how the new testament uses "anthropos" to mean "adam" in the phrase "son of man". so these are two points that must be disputed and not just written off or denied.
 
- the apple
 
 
 
 
 
  
 


#33744 From: "Gregory H" <johannwilhelm1932@...>
Date: Wed Mar 30, 2011 1:49 am
Subject: Re: Intro & Trinity questions @Apple
johannwilhel...
Send Email Send Email
 
Pardon me for jumping in here, but Kelton: if the context of the Philippians
passage is as you say (and I do not disagree), and you're arguing that a
comparison to Adam has nothing to do with it, then surely talk of a pre-existent
divine being coming to earth would be even less relevant.  If Adam Christology
doesn't fit the context, why on earth would pre-existence Christology fit?

Greg


--- In TrinityQuestion@yahoogroups.com, KGRAHAM0938@... wrote:
>
>
> Apple:well, i have shown you- now you are just in denial- so when you have a
scriptural argument against- let me know- you did not rebut any of my argument-
you just denied it.
>
> - the apple
>
> Response: Sure no problem. Lets go to Phil 1.27 -30. The topic here is
suffering, not Adam.
>
> ESV Philippians 1:29 For it has been granted to you that for the sake of
Christ you should not only believe in him but also suffer for his sake, 1:30
engaged in the same conflict that you saw I had and now hear that I still have.
>
> Paul then goes on to discuss unity in Christ (nothing still to do with Adam),
this unity in Christ gives us encouragement, comfort, fellowship, and
compassion.
>
> ESV Philippians 2:1 So if there is any encouragement in Christ, any comfort
from love, any participation in the Spirit, any affection and sympathy,
>
> Paul then encourages them to make his joy complete by being of one mind and to
live in harmony. Maintain the same love, united in spirit, intent on one
purpose. Be filled with joy.
>
> The only way to do the above is to dismiss sin, particularly selfishness. The
only way to overcome that is to regard others as more important than yourself
(still nothing to do with Adam).
>
> ESV Philippians 2:3 Do nothing from rivalry or conceit, but in humility count
others more significant than yourselves.
>
> And then the ultimate example of this of course is Christ.
>
> So there is no comparison going on here at all. Rather a strong desire for the
people to be unified and together and full of joy. Bringing up Adam here would
not fit well with the context because this is about unity amongst the church of
God.
>
> So your challenge has been meet.
>
>
>
>
> Kelton Graham
> kgraham0938@...
> Club Wolverine
> Huron High School
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: applsaucefactory@...
> To: TrinityQuestion@yahoogroups.com
> Sent: Tuesday, March 29, 2011 10:13:16 AM
> Subject: Re: [TrinityQuestion] Re: Intro & Trinity questions @Apple
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> In a message dated 3/28/2011 10:03:00 P.M. Central Daylight Time,
KGRAHAM0938@... writes:
>
>
> This has zilch to do with Adam and the fall. If you can show me an actual
comparison in the actual text, you'd have an argument. But you are just reading
this one into the text.
>
xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx\
xxxxxxxxxx
> well, i have shown you- now you are just in denial- so when you have a
scriptural argument against- let me know- you did not rebut any of my argument-
you just denied it.
>
> - the apple
>

#33745 From: "peters" <pashanab@...>
Date: Wed Mar 30, 2011 2:38 pm
Subject: Re: Intro & Trinity questions @ Johannwilhelm
pashanab
Send Email Send Email
 
<<Luke 19And he took bread, and gave thanks, and brake it, and gave unto them,
saying, This is my body which is given for you: this do in remembrance of me.
20Likewise also the cup after supper, saying, This cup is the new testament in
my blood, which is shed for you.>>
xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
again, this is not talking about genetic blood lines- this is talking about
sacrificial blood
  -----------------------
You mean possessing the gene of God? not the spirit of God?
When one takes holy Communion one takes of this spiritual blood, we become
adopted children thru His blood.

<<They are in opposition as in two poles of the one magnet.

1 John 4: 2Hereby know ye the Spirit of God: Every spirit that confesseth that
Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is of God: 3And every spirit that confesseth
not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is not of God: and this is that
spirit of antichrist, whereof ye have heard that it should come; and even now
already is it in the world.>>
xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
no, they are in opposition as the opposite ends of two separate magnets- the
ends of the same magnet cannot be in opposition because they are the same magnet

- the apple
------------------------
Two separate forces, as in God and Satan, the Spirit and the Flesh?

In Jesus they existed together. and so in his children,
each as One magnet, yet Two opposite poles existing in harmony together.

stone

#33746 From: applsaucefactory@...
Date: Wed Mar 30, 2011 11:14 am
Subject: Re: Re: Intro & Trinity questions @ Johannwilhelm
applsaucefac...
Send Email Send Email
 
 
 
In a message dated 3/30/2011 9:38:24 A.M. Central Daylight Time, pashanab@... writes:
 
<<You mean possessing the gene of God? not the spirit of God?>>
xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
God does not have genes
 
<<When one takes holy Communion one takes of this spiritual blood, we become adopted children thru His blood.>>
xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
when we take communion, we commemorate the death of christ 
 
NAS  1 Corinthians 11:26 For as often as you eat this bread and drink the cup, you proclaim the Lord's death until He comes.
 
the blood of christ through which we become adopted children is his sacrificial blood- not his genetic blood line
 
<<Two separate forces, as in God and Satan, the Spirit and the Flesh?>>
xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
yes, two separate forces
 
<<In Jesus they existed together. and so in his children, each as One magnet, yet Two opposite poles existing in harmony together.>
xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
not in harmony- in enmity (hostile) with each other
 
NAS  Romans 8:7 because the mind set on the flesh is hostile toward God; for it does not subject itself to the law of God, for it is not even able to do so;
 
- the apple

#33747 From: "peters" <pashanab@...>
Date: Thu Mar 31, 2011 7:48 am
Subject: Re: Intro & Trinity questions @ Johannwilhelm
pashanab
Send Email Send Email
 
<<You mean possessing the gene of God? not the spirit of God?>>
xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
God does not have genes
----------
God has children.

<<When one takes holy Communion one takes of this spiritual blood, we become
adopted children thru His blood.>>
xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
when we take communion, we commemorate the death of christ

NAS  1 Corinthians 11:26 For as often as you eat this bread and drink the cup,
you proclaim the Lord's death until He comes.

the blood of christ through which we become adopted children is his sacrificial
blood- not his genetic blood line
-----------------------------
you call it sacrificial others call it genetic, I call it both.

<<Two separate forces, as in God and Satan, the Spirit and the Flesh?>>
xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
yes, two separate forces
--------------------------

John 17:2 As thou hast given him power over all flesh, that he should give
eternal life to as many as thou hast given him.

Jesus was given the power over Satan.

<<In Jesus they existed together. and so in his children, each as One magnet,
yet Two opposite poles existing in harmony together.>
xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
not in harmony- in enmity (hostile) with each other

NAS  Romans 8:7 because the mind set on the flesh is hostile toward God; for it
does not subject itself to the law of God, for it is not even able to do so;

- the apple
--------------------------
Does have to be in enmity. they do coexist together as One force.

stone

#33748 From: applsaucefactory@...
Date: Thu Mar 31, 2011 10:19 am
Subject: Re: Re: Intro & Trinity questions @ Johannwilhelm
applsaucefac...
Send Email Send Email
 
 
 
In a message dated 3/31/2011 2:48:10 A.M. Central Daylight Time, pashanab@... writes:
 
<<God has children.>>
xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
yes, God has children, but not by blood (genetics)
 
<<you call it sacrificial others call it genetic, I call it both.>>
xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
it doesn't matter what you or i or other call it- what matters is what scripture says- and scriptuure says that the blood of jesus is the sacrificial blood that is the propoitiation for our sin- it is what makes us a child of God
 
<<Jesus was given the power over Satan.>>
xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
yes, he was, but that is irrelavant to our discussion about us being children by blood or by the spirit
 
<<Does have to be in enmity. they do coexist together as One force.>>
xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
the bible says that they are two completely different and separate forces
 
- the apple

#33749 From: "peters" <pashanab@...>
Date: Thu Mar 31, 2011 3:49 pm
Subject: Re: Intro & Trinity questions @ Johannwilhelm
pashanab
Send Email Send Email
 
<<God has children.>>
xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
yes, God has children, but not by blood (genetics)
--------------------------
God has children in spirit and in blood (genetics), after all who are the sons
of God if not the blood line of Jesus genetically to Adam?.
  Lk 3:38 Which was the son of Enos, which was the son of Seth, which was the son
of Adam, which was the son of God.

<<you call it sacrificial others call it genetic, I call it both.>>
xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
it doesn't matter what you or i or other call it- what matters is what scripture
says- and scriptuure says that the blood of jesus is the sacrificial blood that
is the propoitiation for our sin- it is what makes us a child of God.
---------------------------------
Hebrews 9:14
How much more shall the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered
himself without spot to God, purge your conscience from dead works to serve the
living God?


<<Jesus was given the power over Satan.>>
xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx\
xx
yes, he was, but that is irrelavant to our discussion about us being children by
blood or by the spirit.
---------------------------
Not one or the other; we are the marriage of both flesh and spirit.

<<Does have to be in enmity. they do coexist together as One force.>>
xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
the bible says that they are two completely different and separate forces

- the apple
-----------------
The bible teaches there is but One Force, One God.

the stone

#33750 From: applsaucefactory@...
Date: Thu Mar 31, 2011 2:58 pm
Subject: Re: Re: Intro & Trinity questions @ Johannwilhelm
applsaucefac...
Send Email Send Email
 
 
 
In a message dated 3/31/2011 10:49:17 A.M. Central Daylight Time, pashanab@... writes:
 
<<God has children in spirit and in blood (genetics), after all who are the sons of God if not the blood line of Jesus genetically to Adam?.
Lk 3:38 Which was the son of Enos, which was the son of Seth, which was the son of Adam, which was the son of God.>>
xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
God has children in spirit, God had children by bloodline- he no longer has children by bloodline- i demonstrated this to you long ago
 
<<Hebrews 9:14- How much more shall the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered himself without spot to God, purge your conscience from dead works to serve the living God?>>
xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
yes, this is talking about sacrificial blood- not genetic bloodlines
 
<<Not one or the other; we are the marriage of both flesh and spirit.>>
xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
please support from the scriptures that flesh and spirit are married to each other
 
<<The bible teaches there is but One Force, One God.>>
xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
so sin is a force of God? my bible says that God cannot sin
 
- the apple

#33751 From: KGRAHAM0938@...
Date: Fri Apr 1, 2011 2:50 am
Subject: Re: Re: Intro & Trinity questions @Apple
kgraham0938
Send Email Send Email
 
Apple: except that he does bring up adam here
 
in verse 3 he lets us know that he is going to talk about humility
 
NAS  Philippians 2:3 Do nothing from selfishness or empty conceit, but with humility of mind let each of you regard one another as more important than himself;
 
he continues about humility in verse 4
 
NAS  Philippians 2:4 do not merely look out for your own personal interests, but also for the interests of others.
 
then he holds jesus us as our example for humility
 
NAS  Philippians 2:5 Have this attitude in yourselves which was also in Christ Jesus,
 
then in verse 6 he mentions 2 things- one, jesus was in the image of God; and 2, jesus did not regard equality with God a thing to be grasped at
 
NAS  Philippians 2:6 who, although He existed in the form of God, did not regard equality with God a thing to be grasped,
 
so at this point we need to ask ourselves - what has this Got to do with us? none of us exist in the image of God, and none of us would ever dream of regarding equality with God as a thing to be grasped for- so we have to ask ourselves- who did? who is paul talking about here? what relevance does this have to us?
 
Response: The answer is Paul is talking about unity in the Phillipian's church and the way it relates to us is that we cannot experiance unity with each other if we are selfish. Paul is not bringing up the morphe (Not image) of God in order to point to Adam. (Which he does not mention, that is you reading into the text), he is bringing it up to show that if CHrist Jesus was not selfish (even though he had that right) we need not be selfish.
 
 
Apple: and the answer- only one other man has existed in the image of God- and that is adam - and only one other man in the bible is said to have regarded equality with God a thing to be grasped for- and that is adam- so what relevance does this have for us- we are descendants of adam- as paul tells us in his other writings- jesus is the latter adam- because of adam, we are all in sin, but because of the latter adam, we are all saved from our sin. this has to be a comparison with adam because there is no other man that fits the description.
 
then in verse 7&8 paul confirms this,
 
NAS  Philippians 2:7 but emptied Himself (i.e humbled himself), taking the form of a bond-servant, and being made in the likeness of men. 8 And being found in appearance as a man (adam), He humbled Himself by becoming obedient to the point of death, even death on a cross.
 
and this is the point that i made and the one you must address, not just deny.
 
Response:  Easy to address. Christ was not selfish and in order for any church to have unity, it too must not be filled with selfish people.
 
Apple: philippians was written in greek, but paul was a hebrew whose birth tongue was aramaic, and who studied to be a pharisee- so he would have thought like a hebrew, not a greek, and he would have been fluent in hebrew. and if he would have been speaking in hebrew, the word he would have used here for "man" would have been "adam". that is the point you must address. i have already shown how the new testament uses "anthropos" to mean "adam" in the phrase "son of man". so these are two points that must be disputed and not just written off or denied.
 
- the apple
 
Response: Easy, Paul also wrote 1 Corinthians, there he used the name ADAM when speaking of the actual person named Adam and there is no reason to think he is inconsistent. 2 Not many Jews lived in Phillipi therefore Paul is speaking to Gentiles so he is writtng in Greek. 3: Adam does not fit into the context of the passage, since the context is talking about church unity, not the fall.
 
 
 
 

Response:

Kelton Graham
kgraham0938@...
Club Wolverine
Huron High School


----- Original Message -----
From: applsaucefactory@...
To: TrinityQuestion@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Tuesday, March 29, 2011 3:45:09 PM
Subject: Re: [TrinityQuestion] Re: Intro & Trinity questions @Apple

 

 
 
In a message dated 3/29/2011 10:28:54 A.M. Central Daylight Time, KGRAHAM0938@... writes:
Response: Sure no problem.  Lets go  to Phil 1.27 -30. The topic here is suffering, not Adam.

ESV  Philippians 1:29 For it has been granted to you that for the sake of Christ you should not only believe in him but also suffer for his sake,  1:30 engaged in the same conflict that you saw I had and now hear that I still have.

Paul then goes on to discuss unity in Christ (nothing still to do with Adam), this unity in Christ gives us encouragement, comfort, fellowship, and compassion.

ESV  Philippians 2:1 So if there is any encouragement in Christ, any comfort from love, any participation in the Spirit, any affection and sympathy,

Paul then encourages them to make his joy complete by being of one mind and to live in harmony. Maintain the same love, united in spirit, intent on one purpose. Be filled with joy.

The only way to do the above is to dismiss sin, particularly selfishne ss.  The only way to overcome that is to regard others as more important than yourself (still nothing to do with Adam).

ESV  Philippians 2:3 Do nothing from rivalry or conceit, but in humility count others more significant than yourselves.

And then the ultimate example of this of course is Christ.

So there is no comparison going on here at all.  Rather a strong desire for the people to be unified and together and full of joy. Bringing up Adam here would not fit well with the context because this is about unity amongst the church of God.

So your challenge has been meet.
xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
except that he does bring up adam here
 
in verse 3 he lets us know that he is going to talk about humility
 
NAS  Philippians 2:3 Do nothing from selfishness or empty conceit, but with humility of mind let each of you regard one another as more important than himself;
 
he continues about humility in verse 4
 
NAS  Philippians 2:4 do not merely look out for your own personal interests, but also for the interests of others.
 
then he holds jesus us as our example for humility
 
NAS  Philippians 2:5 Have this attitude in yourselves which was also in Christ Jesus,
 
then in verse 6 he mentions 2 things- one, jesus was in the image of God; and 2, jesus did not regard equality with God a thing to be grasped at
 
NAS  Philippians 2:6 who, although He existed in the form of God, did not regard equality with God a thing to be grasped,
 
so at this point we need to ask ourselves - what has this Got to do with us? none of us exist in the image of God, and none of us would ever dream of regarding equality with God as a thing to be grasped for- so we have to ask ourselves- who did? who is paul talking about here? what relevance does this have to us?
 
and the answer- only one other man has existed in the image of God- and that is adam - and only one other man in the bible is said to have regarded equality with God a thing to be grasped for- and that is adam- so what relevance does this have for us- we are descendants of adam- as paul tells us in his other writings- jesus is the latter adam- because of adam, we are all in sin, but because of the latter adam, we are all saved from our sin. this has to be a comparison with adam because there is no other man that fits the description.
 
then in verse 7&8 paul confirms this,
 
NAS  Philippians 2:7 but emptied Himself (i.e humbled himself), taking the form of a bond-servant, and being made in the likeness of men. 8 And being found in appearance as a man (adam), He humbled Himself by becoming obedient to the point of death, even death on a cross.
 
and this is the point that i made and the one you must address, not just deny.
 
philippians was written in greek, but paul was a hebrew whose birth tongue was aramaic, and who studied to be a pharisee- so he would have thought like a hebrew, not a greek, and he would have been fluent in hebrew. and if he would have been speaking in hebrew, the word he would have used here for "man" would have been "adam". that is the point you must address. i have already shown how the new testament uses "anthropos" to mean "adam" in the phrase "son of man". so these are two points that must be disputed and not just written off or denied.
 
- the apple
 
 
 
 
 
  
 


#33752 From: KGRAHAM0938@...
Date: Fri Apr 1, 2011 2:53 am
Subject: Re: Re: Intro & Trinity questions @Greg
kgraham0938
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Greg: Pardon me for jumping in here, but Kelton: if the context of the Philippians passage is as you say (and I do not disagree), and you're arguing that a comparison to Adam has nothing to do with it, then surely talk of a pre-existent divine being coming to earth would be even less relevant. If Adam Christology doesn't fit the context, why on earth would pre-existence Christology fit?

Greg

Response: Sure, no worries.  It is because Paul is saying that Christ had the rite to be selfish and wasn't.  He is saying, "Although Christ existed this way (i.e form of God, which I think is a claim of deity), he voluntarily became this for our sake.

 

So Christ had the absolute rite to be selfish because of his prior status, and voluntarily humbled himself (not the Father's doing) and became obedient until death.



Kelton Graham
kgraham0938@...
Club Wolverine
Huron High School


----- Original Message -----
From: "Gregory H" <johannwilhelm1932@...>
To: TrinityQuestion@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Tuesday, March 29, 2011 9:49:39 PM
Subject: [TrinityQuestion] Re: Intro & Trinity questions @Apple

 

Pardon me for jumping in here, but Kelton: if the context of the Philippians passage is as you say (and I do not disagree), and you're arguing that a comparison to Adam has nothing to do with it, then surely talk of a pre-existent divine being coming to earth would be even less relevant. If Adam Christology doesn't fit the context, why on earth would pre-existence Christology fit?

Greg


--- In TrinityQuestion@yahoogroups.com, KGRAHAM0938@... wrote:
>
>
> Apple:well, i have shown you- now you are just in denial- so when you have a scriptural argument against- let me know- you did not rebut any of my argument- you just denied it.
>
> - the apple
>
> Response: Sure no problem. Lets go to Phil 1.27 -30. The topic here is suffering, not Adam.
>
> ESV Philippians 1:29 For it has been granted to you that for the sake of Christ you should not only believe in him but also suffer for his sake, 1:30 engaged in the same conflict that you saw I had and now hear that I still have.
>
> Paul then goes on to discuss unity in Christ (nothing still to do with Adam), this unity in Christ gives us encouragement, comfort, fellowship, and compassion.
>
> ESV Philippians 2:1 So if there is any encouragement in Christ, any comfort from love, any participation in the Spirit, any affection and sympathy,
>
> Paul then encourages them to make his joy complete by being of one mind and to live in harmony. Maintain the same love, united in spirit, intent on one purpose. Be filled with joy.
>
> The only way to do the above is to dismiss sin, particularly selfishness. The only way to overcome that is to regard others as more important than yourself (still nothing to do with Adam).
>
> ESV Philippians 2:3 Do nothing from rivalry or conceit, but in humility count others more significant than yourselves.
>
> And then the ultimate example of this of course is Christ.
>
> So there is no comparison going on here at all. Rather a strong desire for the people to be unified and together and full of joy. Bringing up Adam here would not fit well with the context because this is about unity amongst the church of God.
>
> So your challenge has been meet.
>
>
>
>
> Kelton Graham
> kgraham0938@...
> Club Wolverine
> Huron High School
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: applsaucefactory@...
> To: TrinityQuestion@yahoogroups.com
> Sent: Tuesday, March 29, 2011 10:13:16 AM
> Subject: Re: [TrinityQuestion] Re: Intro & Trinity questions @Apple
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> In a message dated 3/28/2011 10:03:00 P.M. Central Daylight Time, KGRAHAM0938@... writes:
>
>
> This has zilch to do with Adam and the fall. If you can show me an actual comparison in the actual text, you'd have an argument. But you are just reading this one into the text.
> xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
> well, i have shown you- now you are just in denial- so when you have a scriptural argument against- let me know- you did not rebut any of my argument- you just denied it.
>
> - the apple
>


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