hellow
I dont anything about what you are saying please let
me know the logics

Tope.
--- IDOWU FABUNMI <idnewyear@...> wrote:
> please i sa your mail and truly the most problem we
> have is religion problem in which i can solve as
> world
> citizen. please do not forget to invite me to any of
> your workshops or conference.. please least i forget
> iam very poor to the level i realy check mail
> because
> of lack of capital.. please assist me god almighty
> will assist you too..
>
>


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From Gary K. Shepherd
Re: Religion is the Problem
>>May I say that this article is some of the most
articulate, erudite, and well-written baloney that
I have ever encountered.
>>I fear that it is Mr. Dawkins who has no clothes.

>Perhaps, I was unkind in characterizing the entire
article as baloney when in fact, there were some parts
of it with which I had no problem.
>However, I should hope that the glaring
over-generalizations and logical flaws in the article
would be obvious to just about anyone, regardless of
their religious persuasions.
>I urge you to read it again with an open, but
critical mind, and I think you will see what I mean.

Which parts? The bit about the savagery of the bronze-age God of battles and
the anti-human values it teaches, or the hypocrisy of proclaiming belief in
it so that (if it exists) it won't torture you for all eternity, or the fact
that its followers have used its name ("in goodness and mercy") down through
the centuries to justify all sorts of atrocities, and that they still to
this day use it as justification to kill?

I can see how some of the more complex chains of thought he writes about can
be interpreted in different lights, thus disqualifying some conclusions. The
same can be said for anything.

"Only the wilfully blind could fail to implicate the
divisive force of religion in most, if not all, of the
violent enmities in the world today. Without a doubt
it is the prime aggravator of the Middle East.
Those of us who have for years politely concealed our
contempt for the dangerous collective delusion of
religion need to stand up and speak out."

_________________________________________________________________
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>If the constitution restricted government to the business
of government, that is, determining what is criminal
behavior and what are the penalties for such, and relied
on minimal, equal and non-discriminatory funding by an
agreed method, then government should not become a cash-cow
for group-action thieves!

Thank you Ian for those points.
Basically, it must be stated that the present US system is _not_ the end-all
of governance. Read back through the federalist papers and some of the other
documents that showed what they were thinking, and you can see how far it is
from ideal.

"Ideal" by the way, doesn't mean that there is _any_ one system that is
perfect. We never say that we have the perfect system, only that it's a step
towards further development, and better than what we've got today.

Also, there are many other ways of apportioning votes in an assembly than
population. Even in a world-wide direct voting democracy, simple
one-person-one vote may not be the best. There certainly are regional
differences.
Surely, where you live or were born is the least important criteria about
where your vote should be allocated. Income, trade, family size, all sorts
of things can determine this.

Certainly there is a trade-off in government and entitlement and
reapportioning of wealth.
On one hand
" Full opportunity for full development is the unalienable right of all.
He who denies it is a tyrant; He who does not demand it is a coward; He who
is indifferent is a slave; He who does not desire it is dead.
The Earth for all the people! That is the demand."
Eugene V. Debs 1904

on the other
" Freedom is not empowerment. Empowerment is what the Serbs have in Bosnia.
Anybody can grab a gun and be empowered. It's not entitlement. An
entitlement is what people on welfare get, and how free are they? It's not
an endlessly expanding list of rights--the 'right' to education, the 'right'
to health care, the 'right' to food and housing. That's not freedom, that's
dependency. Those aren't rights, those are the rations of slavery--hay and a
barn for human cattle. There's only one basic human right, the right to do
as you damn well please. And with it comes the only basic human duty, the
duty to take the consequences."  P.J. O'Rourke




molork wrote:
>>if u have a democratically elected world government,there is one
>>major problem.If a particular groups of people lving in a particular
>>state or region wish fro more fund for their area they would need
>>some one in their region in power.if every vote counted equally then
>>effectively the most productive region will be bled by the most
>>populous nation.The emergence of parties which are regional and serve
>>the purposes of a particular region are inevitable.

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--- In WorldCitizen@yahoogroups.com, Ian Green <iangreen@a...> wrote:
> I cannot vouch for Global Nation, but I wonder why the original
poster used that (obsolete?) URL.<


I can answer this one. At the time Mr. Boutwell posted his original
message regarding Global Nation the url was rockefeller.com.au. Since
that time we have purchased a new domain name www.global-nation.com
and have closed the old one so as to avoid confusion.

Now we have a more streamlined name that serves the meaning behind
what we aim to achieve, namely a one world federation via "Global
Nation".

I hope you will join us there.

Sara


--- In WorldCitizen@yahoogroups.com, Ian Green <iangreen@a...> wrote:
> I cannot vouch for Global Nation, but I wonder why the original
poster used
> that (obsolete?) URL. This server is not found (tonight), but
Google found
> the current and active website at
> http://www.global-nation.com/
>
>
> At 04:27 PM 9/12/2002 -0600, you wrote:
> >HI
> >I think this sounds good, if it is indeed what it presents itself
to
> >be.  My fear is that it is some kind of scam, of which their seem
to be a
> >plethora on the internet.
> >Peace and Unity,
> >Gary
>
> <SNIP>
>
> > > > Please visit the official Global Nation website at:
> > > > http://www.rockefeller.com.au if you would like to learn more
about
> > > > Global Nation, it's goals and ideology, or to contact the
Global
> <SNIP>

Hi
In his article, Mr. Dawkins admits that religion is not the motivation
behind violence or as he puts it,

Do I really think the Northern Ireland pub bomber says to himself
"Take that, Tridentine Transubstantiationist bastards!" Of course I don't
think anything of the kind. Theology is the last thing on the minds of such
people. They are not killing because of religion itself, but because of
political grievances, often justified

Yet despite this admission, Mr. Dawkins still manages to find religion,
particularly the three monothesticit 'Abrahamic' religions,  somehow to
blame. Without a doubt, adherents of religion have committed unspeakable
atrocities, and often used religion to justify their acts. The attack on
Sept. 11 is only one example of that history, and a rather minor example at
that. But that is only part of the story.

Monotheists hold no monopoly on violence and cruelty. Some of the greatest
crimes against humanity were committed by others: The officially atheist
Soviet Union sent millions to starve in the Gulags, Pol Pot's Khymer Rouge
created the killing fields of Cambodia, and the Maoists committed the
Cultural Revolution.  Even the Holocaust, in which some Christians
participated, was undertaken for 'racial' reasons by a regime hostile to
Christianity, and was resisted by other Christians, often at the risk of
their lives.  The Bataan Death March, and the massacres of Genghis Khan
were committed by people of non-monotheistic faiths. I'd say there was
plenty of blame to go around.

At the same time, the Abrahamic faiths have produced people who have fought
for peace and justice, people like Martin Luther King, Jr., Benjamin Lay,
Bishop Tutu, Mother Teresa, Dorothy Day, Gaffar Khan, Teilhard de Chardain
and a host of others.  Adherents of those faiths have produced some of the
great works of art, literature and music as expressions of their faith,
works that have enriched all of humanity.

But more important than any of that is the fact that every day, hundreds of
millions of members of these three faiths go through their daily lives,
without harming or desiring to harm anyone of any faith.  I have in my life
been constantly surrounded by people of many different religious faiths,
and never has a single one ever used violence toward me in any way because
of my religion.  I would bet that is the experience of most of the people
on this list, regardless of their own particular beliefs.

I think it is obvious that there are other social dynamics at play than
religious faith; in fact, I'd say that religion plays a minor part. Where
the religions have erred, I would maintain, is where they compromise their
basic message in attempt to fit in with the greater society.  "When they
came for the Jews, I didn't speak up, because I wasn't a Jew" as Bonhoeffer
put it.   That is no doubt a great crime, and one to which people of all
faiths must answer. Nevertheless, it is more a sin of omission than of
commission.  Because doctors sometimes fail to save patients when
attempting to cure them is no reason to abandon the practice of medicine.

To dismiss the testimony of millions of people over the centuries who have
reported having experienced some sort of connection with God as a delusion,
simply because one hasn't had such an experience oneself, strikes me as
being somewhat presumptuous.  I would assume that Mr. Dawkins doesn't want
to give the impression that he thinks he is smarter and better than all
those deluded fools who believe in God, but he comes dangerously close to
implying as much. The Greek word for that is Hubris.

Peace and Unity,
Gary

At 01:26 PM 12/21/2002 -0700, you wrote:
> From Gary K. Shepherd
>Re: Religion is the Problem
> >>May I say that this article is some of the most
>articulate, erudite, and well-written baloney that
>I have ever encountered.
> >>I fear that it is Mr. Dawkins who has no clothes.
>
> >Perhaps, I was unkind in characterizing the entire
>article as baloney when in fact, there were some parts
>of it with which I had no problem.
> >However, I should hope that the glaring
>over-generalizations and logical flaws in the article
>would be obvious to just about anyone, regardless of
>their religious persuasions.
> >I urge you to read it again with an open, but
>critical mind, and I think you will see what I mean.
>
>Which parts? The bit about the savagery of the bronze-age God of battles and
>the anti-human values it teaches, or the hypocrisy of proclaiming belief in
>it so that (if it exists) it won't torture you for all eternity, or the fact
>that its followers have used its name ("in goodness and mercy") down through
>the centuries to justify all sorts of atrocities, and that they still to
>this day use it as justification to kill?
>
>I can see how some of the more complex chains of thought he writes about can
>be interpreted in different lights, thus disqualifying some conclusions. The
>same can be said for anything.
>
>"Only the wilfully blind could fail to implicate the
>divisive force of religion in most, if not all, of the
>violent enmities in the world today. Without a doubt
>it is the prime aggravator of the Middle East.
>Those of us who have for years politely concealed our
>contempt for the dangerous collective delusion of
>religion need to stand up and speak out."
>
>_________________________________________________________________
>MSN 8 helps eliminate e-mail viruses. Get 3 months FREE*.
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>
>
>
>"I have believed that the only way peace can be achieved is through world
>government" (Jawaharal Nehru)
>
>For more information: www.worldservice.org and info@...
>
>
>Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>

Gary K. Shepherd
Documents Center
Morris Library
SIU
Carbondale, IL 62901
618-536-2163
gshepher@...

 dear john i wanna ask u something how can this organizationhelp us to be free in this world.

thanks

heba

hello
      i had gone through yor site and i agree with ur
idea.iwant to fight for human rights and to upgrade
humanity.please send me the literature regarding this
and inform me about yor meetings in india and abroad.
     THE ONLY RELIGION IN WORLD IS HUMANITY
               this has to be accepted by world and we
all have to work for it.
  Hope to hear from u soon.
                        bye.
                                           manish.




















--- John Frazer <johnf4303@...> wrote:
> From Gary K. Shepherd
> Re: Religion is the Problem
> >>May I say that this article is some of the most
> articulate, erudite, and well-written baloney that
> I have ever encountered.
> >>I fear that it is Mr. Dawkins who has no clothes.
>
> >Perhaps, I was unkind in characterizing the entire
> article as baloney when in fact, there were some
> parts
> of it with which I had no problem.
> >However, I should hope that the glaring
> over-generalizations and logical flaws in the
> article
> would be obvious to just about anyone, regardless of
> their religious persuasions.
> >I urge you to read it again with an open, but
> critical mind, and I think you will see what I mean.
>
> Which parts? The bit about the savagery of the
> bronze-age God of battles and
> the anti-human values it teaches, or the hypocrisy
> of proclaiming belief in
> it so that (if it exists) it won't torture you for
> all eternity, or the fact
> that its followers have used its name ("in goodness
> and mercy") down through
> the centuries to justify all sorts of atrocities,
> and that they still to
> this day use it as justification to kill?
>
> I can see how some of the more complex chains of
> thought he writes about can
> be interpreted in different lights, thus
> disqualifying some conclusions. The
> same can be said for anything.
>
> "Only the wilfully blind could fail to implicate the
> divisive force of religion in most, if not all, of
> the
> violent enmities in the world today. Without a doubt
> it is the prime aggravator of the Middle East.
> Those of us who have for years politely concealed
> our
> contempt for the dangerous collective delusion of
> religion need to stand up and speak out."
>
>
_________________________________________________________________
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> FREE*.
>
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>


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Hi is for your real interest  to know about peace us u now the war,  is contrary of peace

We must consider war ,under which head there are three  point of view

1.    whether some kind of war is lawful ?

2.    whether it is lawful for clerics to fight ?

3.    whether it is lawful for belligerents to lay ambushes ?

There, fore , now a human is in order to deceived the enemy by another’s word or deed in two ways ,first through the being told same thing false or through the breaking of a promise and this is always unlawful .No one ought to deceive the enemy in the way ,for there are certain right of war and covenants which ought to be observed even among enemy as Ambrose states. Not only is all but several reason  can I mention same time we do not declare our aim ,my be our agenda is covered by Democracy or human right 

Your:-

kiss

BONSOIR.
Je suis fiert de recevoir ton message.Je vous dis que
la paix dans le monde c'est le gouvernement du monde
seulement qui peut realiser Ca.je vous dit qu'aussi
chaque personne doit avoir sa dignite.cette dignite ne
peut existe si tu ne vis sur les droits.ces droits ne
peut pas ne peut pas s'obtenir que sur world
gouvernement.toutes les regions du monde doivent venir
dans le world gouvernement et donnees aussi leurs
paroles signees aussi.si ca existe le monde sera mieux
et sera libre.
je reve que la liberte du monde c'est le gouvrenement
du monde qui peut amener ca.
merci dana7172@....
de la part de bamba wade.MERCI

___________________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!? -- Une adresse @yahoo.fr gratuite et en français !
Yahoo! Mail : http://fr.mail.yahoo.com

JOHN GRAZER.
JE TRES CONTENT DE RECEVOIR TON MESSAGE .
je voudrais te dire une peitete chose concernant ce
monde.tu sais que y a beaucoup de religion dans cette
terre que des humains croient differemment.je vous
confirme aussi que la religion est le probleme mais
les humains croient a leur religion d'une croyance
fatale etaussi c'est impossible de les decroire.mais
si tout le monde croit à ce qu'il croit respecte les
humains comme lui respecte aussi les droits de son
pays et leur justice y'aura pas de probleme.









Avous JOHN FRAZERtu sais si le chretien prenait le
misulman le juif toutes les religieux comme frere
c'est un exemple y'aura pas de probleme.prenons
exemple sur un president senegalais au nom de LEOPOL S
SENGHOR IL venait à chaque des religiopns sans ex
ption.et puis vous le citopyen du monde je vous
demande il ne faut plus parler en disant ta RELIGION
parceque SI tu parle de ca on peut dire que tu n'est
citoyen du monde or nous habitte nul part.





concernant le 11 septembre cette evetement terrible
partout dans le monde et celui qui a fait ca n'importe
quel religion qu'il est l a ue ses freres et d'autres
personnes innocentes.donc on doit essayer d' eviter
ces problemes comme ca.que la justice et la paix regne
partout dans le monde .merci de la part de BAMBA WADE
.merci a toi JOHN FRAZER.A BIETOT.

___________________________________________________________
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I would like to have some feedback by the group abour the  World
Service Authority Passport, their experiences with it and what could
I do if this was the only passport available to me, assuming that I
did't have a nationality.
Are there other options to people without nationalities?

I would really appreciate an answer by anyone who has had the
experience of traveling with this passport.

Thanks

Hi! I am new to this group. I am CO from the Gulf War and non-
violence advocate. The situation in the USA has deteriorated to the
point that I have been seeking a group such as this. Actually, i was
thinking of starting one myself if it didn't exist! I reviewed the
web site - but am having difficulty finding information on the how to
become an official of WorldCitizen and how decisions are made
regarding the initiatives the group takes. As I said, I am interested
in promoting nonviolence through individual conscience and the
concept of world citizenship. Please e-mail me with information on
how I can help. Please don't just say - "send  money" - I want to
take part. FWIW, I'm a practicing Emergency MD, an honors grad of
West Point who has seen the light, a former Amnesty Int. prisoner of
conscience, helped produce the current 'veteran's call to conscience'
and a couple recent articles on counterpunch and alternet. peace.
Dave Wiggins dwiggmd@...

Hi!  I'm new to this group.  I see some interesting comments and will
try to enter the discussion by offering my views.

--- In WorldCitizen@yahoogroups.com, akshay khanna
<akshay_khanna11@y...> wrote:

>     THE ONLY RELIGION IN WORLD IS HUMANITY
>               this has to be accepted by world and we
> all have to work for it.

Since i'm new here i'm not familiar with the background of your
comments.  But just in case i'm not too far off the mark, may i offer
the followiing:

I agree with the spirit of what you appear to be saying about
religion.  If a medicine designed to heal humankind and promote unity
and collective health gradually becomes rotten and even poisonous,
then it's better to get rid of it.  Why retain a supposed medicine
that only makes us sicker?  Most religions in their old age do seem
to become not only senile but actively destructive and end up doing
precisely what they were originally intended to prevent.

But if we discover that certain foods have become poisonous, it
doesn't follow that we must therefore stop eating food.  We can't
survive without it.  The real issue is over good food or bad food,
not whether to eat or not.  Of course anyone looking at the current
display of almost all modern religions will hardly see anything that
is encouraging and much that is very discouraging.  But if we take a
larger perspective that looks at much more than our current modern
history, and take that large panoramic view of history that historian
of civilization Arnold Toynbee did, then we see that it is some kind
of religious "fervor" (as he delicately put it) that is behind the
rise of just about every one of the civilizational processes that we
know.  It's not difficult at all to trace most civilizations back to
a religion in in vibrant and youthful stages, when it brings out good
qualities in humans, lifting themselves up out of a more selfish
nature.  And this collective improvement in the quality of a humans
eventually produces the effects in the civilizations that we have
seen during their rise.

We are now evidently in the last stages of decline of the current
world-encompassing civilization that was spread globally during the
age of European colonization of much of the world, so we see the
depressing results of all those characteristic traits that Toynbee
mentioned such as social and spiritual decay accompanied by material
development prior to the inevitable sudden collapse of the entire
system.

I would like to suggest that it would be a good thing to get rid of
religion of any kind in its stages of decay when they become so
destructive.  But at the same time i'd like to say that just because
the Torch of Religion has been used to set fire to the structures of
our civilization doesn't mean that it wasn't originally intended to
light the way through the darkness of a humanity that is otherwise
stumbling about in confusion, selfishness, greed, belligerence and
ultimate self-defeat.  I'm in agreement with Toynbee that humans
cannot live without religion of some kind -- otherwise we have no
guidelines and original impetus by which to make humans cooperative,
honest, fair and kind and will see a gradual collapse into humans
behaving ever more viciously and wildly, with ever more warring and
violence.  The matter is simply one of having a religion that is
fresh, new, vibrant and constructive.  Perhaps this is why religions
appear to be periodically renewed, and when the fresh new ones
arrive, the old ones get rotten and harmful.

This in no way summarizes my complete view on the matter but is an
intro to this discussion.

Thanks!

david

In some discussions I've been  advocating that anti-war rallies ought
to be peoples manifestations against both militaristic sides...
actually the rallies should go both to the american AND the iraqi
embassies .... to be for freedom and democracy, is not just opposing
the elite's plans in our part of the world, there's a need for
expanding the protests into an action from civil society to take the
responsibility for building true peace, freedom and democracy .. in
only questioning our own powerelites statements, we may promote peace
for the iraqi people in the sense, absence of war... but miss
solidarity in working for aims like true peoples selfdetermination -
not as people = nation, nation = government.

For a non-violent people to people solidarity fighting ALL political,
military and financial powerelites that try to involve us in their
conflicts of interest, quest for honour and glory, dominance and
control .... Against both Bush and Saddam..
  As a father I have more interest in raising my kid(s) in a world of
peace in common with an iraqi father, than we have to stand behind our
political leaders waving their oblong things.

       Sören Groth

http://www.freewebs.com/tcfactory/

Hello again!  Some more ideas come to mind.

I used to teach at a university in China and am also familiar with
some of the problems that exist in the former Soviet Union.  I have
no problem with the communistic program to bring justice so that
large groups are no longer oppressed by certain wealthy and powerful
minorities.  But we humans have a capacity to abandon our original
aims and goals.  The new communist party in China is the old
aristocracy, and this defeats the whole purpose of what that 1917
revolution was all about.  It's the old monster in new clothes.  And
the very same thing happens in religion too.  They end up betraying
their original values.  It doesn't take a genius to see that.

What really frightened me in China was the dull, grey, lifeless, dead
spirit that was infused into the society through this religious
irreligion.  Materialist ideologies like communism and capitalism can
become opiates of the people too!  And the gradual disappearance of
the beautiful qualities of genuine kindness, love, fairness, justice,
honesty, truthfulness, reciprocity, unselfishness, service, and so on
is scary.  You really see that in nations that worked so hard to
remove religion.  Look at all the corruption that existed in the old
USSR's world.  And it still exists.  When you go to a country where
there's a fairly strong religious sense in the culture, even if its
priesthood is abysmally corrupt and rotten, there's a nice spirit in
the air, and there's a general feeling of aliveness, vibrance and
natural affection among the people.

I see the day when, after we have nearly destroyed our world and left
only a part of the world's population that the world's leaders will
discuss what the cause of all the trouble was.  And they will decide
that it is prejudice between humans, especially religious prejudice
(which is not religion at all but a horrible perversion of it).  So
they will take steps to remove it from our world.  And then, when
we've seen the horrid consequences of that - something i've already
seen and lived in - they will finally realize that we humans cannot
live without religion and will possibly investigate them all and find
one that is most suitable to the times.

In support of this, i'd like to quote from Richard Dawkins and
Bertrand Russell, to give you an idea of where an anti-religious
materialist stance leads:

· "Nature is not cruel, only pitilessly indifferent.  This
lesson is one of the hardest for humans to learn.  We cannot accept
that things might be neither good nor evil, neither cruel nor kind,
but simply callous: indifferent to all suffering, lacking all
purpose.... In a universe of electrons and selfish genes, blind
physical forces and genetic replications, some people are going to
get lucky, and you won't find any rhyme or reason in it, nor any
justice.  The universe that we observe has precisely the properties
we should expect if there is, at the bottom, no design, no purpose,
no evil and no good, nothing but pitiless indifference."  (River Out
of Eden)

Or how about this gem from Bertrand Russell?

· " ... the world which science presents for our belief is even
more purposeless, more void of meaning, [than a world in which God is
malevolent].  Amid such a world, if anywhere, our ideals henceforward
must find a home.  That man is the product of causes which had no
prevision of the end they were achieving; that his origin, his
growth, his hopes and fears, his loves and his beliefs, are but the
outcome of accidental collocations of atoms; that no fire, no
heroism, no intensity of thought and feeling, can preserve an
individual life beyond the grave; that all the labours of the ages,
all the devotion, all the inspiration, all the noonday brightness of
human genius, are destined to extinction in the vast death of the
solar system, and the whole temple of Man's achievement must
inevitably be buried beneath the debris of a universe in ruins—all
these things, if not quite beyond dispute, are yet so nearly certain
that no philosophy which rejects them can hope to stand.  Only within
the scaffolding of these truths, only on the firm foundation of
unyielding despair, can the soul's habitation henceforth be safely
built."  (Why I am not a Christian)

Well, this is a recipe for despair and a great deal of trouble in
society.  If humans feel that there is no reason for living, that
it's all for nothing, then why be honest?  Why be fair and just?  Why
be kind?  In fact the history of civilization shows us graphically
the consequences of living in this condition.  That's when
civilizations decline and finally collapse.

We need religion in its pure original forms -- the part in which all
the world's major religion are in solid agreement -- and we need to
cut off the diseased parts that run in direct opposition to these
foundations of excellent human behavior that are essentially the
building blocks of a stable social order.

Our modern politicians are see the structure of civilized society in
its various modern forms.  They see the cracks appearing in the walls
of this structure.  So, unless they are utterly corrupt, they try to
patch them up.  But it's for nothing.  Soon new cracks appear.  The
social structure continues to show ever more weakness.  The reason
for this is because these cracks are only symptoms of a deeper-lying
problem.  And that problem is in the foundations of human psychology,
in the foundations of how this psychology works socially when we
operate in groups.  But these foundations are hidden from us.  So
politicians and others keep dealing with the secondary symptoms of a
world falling apart at the seams and never get down to the root
causes.  They even deny the reality of these root causes.

But i believe that the roots of human behavior run even deeper than
the psychology we currently barely grasp, and that these run down
into deeply subconscious areas of ourselves that we can only call our
spiritual foundations.  When we are at war with ourselves deep down,
we war outwardly too.  This is where the repair, the healing must
first take place.  And it is precisely this deep, hidden area in us
that religion, when it is fresh, vibrant, young and full of immense
power, can can work on, changing dishonest, corrupt beings into good
people filled with ideals of service, kindness, justice, fairness and
integrity.  I'm quite convinced that these attributes appear in
humans only through channels that trace back ultimately to some
religious outpouring during the earliest days of that religion.

That we humans have so often been unable to rise up to the high
standards of the virtues promoted by all the major religions is not
the fault of these religions or their Founders but rather to be
ascribed to our weakness.  The patient who refuses to follow the
prescription of a wise doctor and gets sick cannot blame the doctor
for his problems.

The structure of society has three levels, hidden spiritual
foundations, intellectual social structural walls, and the roof of
final material and technological development.  Everything rests on
those foundations.

Viewed from another perspective, the stability and solidity of a
social structure depends on three things:  1) the qualities of
materials used, 2) the binding materials used to put these together,
and 3) a good sensible design for the whole structure.  We humans
might be compared to the building blocks of the structure of
civilization.  If we are individually crumbling, like mud bricks, and
cannot have integrity and strength as individual components of
society, then the most perfect structural design for a society must
fail.  The first storm of tests will topple a beautifully-designed
structure that is built of crumbling building blocks.  Or, in the
words of another, "you cannot make a good omelette out of bad eggs".
Secondly, unless there is some means of binding humans together into
a cooperative system of social organization, we will be at odds with
each other and fight over everything.  Watch a group of children
without parental control.  Or watch our world leaders without the
control of the "parent" of a global governing agency!

Religion in its first stages has traditionally provided the first two
principles here.  It has inculcated good qualities and virtues into
individuals, making them able to function as parts in a cooperative
enterprise of civilization.  And it has provided a means of bonding
hearts together so that there is some measure of love, kindness and
reciprocity between them.  Of course these powers die out during the
old age of religions, meaning that it has to be renewed.  So the old
religions become instruments of harm to the world while the new
spirit of upbuilding that works on the spiritual foundations of the
structure of civilization appears in a new religion.  Again, this is
Toynbee's idea.  I will refrain right now from mentioning the
particular religion that Toynbee suggested would be the foundation of
a world civilization destined to rise on the ruins of the current
corrupt and decaying one lest it appear that i'm proselytizing or
preaching.

Right now, the point is that the presence of bad government doesn't
mean that we should abandon all government and live in anarchy.  That
won't work.  We need a means of ordering human social affairs at
every level (especially global right now!)  And the same principle
applies to religion.  Just because we immature humans have betrayed
the original aims and ideals of religion and perverted them into
instruments of harm to our world doesn't mean that the solution is to
abandon all religion.  It's a matter of good government or bad
government, not government or no government.  It's a matter of good
religion or bad religion, not religion or no religion.  We cannot
survive for long without both.

Thank you for bearing with this rather long statement,

your fellow world citizen,

David Garcia

DEMOCRATIE PARTOUT.
Je suis tres fiert de recevoir votre message.je vous
dit quelquechose ,nous les cityons du monde on fait de
tel sorte que la democratie regne partout dans le
monde .on ne doit pas dire que tel ou tel pays a la
democratie on doit faire de tel sorte que la
democratie regne partout dans le monde .ce que vous
dites que L EST VIT DANS LA DEMOCRATIE ;ET L OUEST ET
LE NORD ET LE SUD eux aussi ils doivent vivre dans la
democratie.dans un pays on ne doit pas faire la
difference de ceux vivent dans la democratie et ceux
qui ne vivent pas dans la democratie,on doit faire de
tel sorte que tout le pays vit dans la democratie.
ce qui peut amener ca est que tout le monde soit
membre du world citizen si ça existe aura plus de
difference dans les regions du monde.
        jaouadcristin23@...
               de la part de bamba wade.

___________________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!? -- Une adresse @yahoo.fr gratuite et en français !
Yahoo! Mail : http://fr.mail.yahoo.com

I am Michael Zargarov d'Buchert, Szekely Zigani-Vajda.
   I live in Houston, Texas but have considered and called myself a
"World Citizen" since 1974. I am 40 years young. I have lived in 8
countries other than my own (US) and have travelled to and through 61
others.
   I feel, at this critical juncture when all the forces of capital
and greed are aiming my country to war-unending, to make broader
connection with like-minded individuals.
   I am currently active in the Anti-Bush-War-on-Iraq movement.
   I am gravitating towards a Green-Socialist political mindset.
   I am fleeing religion...drawing closer to a Humanist aspect.

   I hope to contact others...and to help in unifying what may be left
of a thinking and aspiring world community.

(Note: this letter is only for people who oppose the War on Iraq.)

Re: URGENT,  Please Write To Colin Powell Today.

Dear Caring friends,

   The report said the US military is going to drop 3,000 guided
missiles at the begining of the war to kill Iraqis to "stun" enemy.

   Please let's write an urgent letter to Secretary of State
Colin Powell to ask him promote the Peace and Stop the War.
Enclosed a  SAMPLE LETTER  and important CONTACT
information.  Please, you are urged to write your own letter.
Thanks so much for your efforts for the world peace.

Also, we forward the following activity in US to you :
please attend the March 15, 2003 National ANTI-WAR
PROTEST if you can  to give Peace a chance.
The information is as follows :

              March 15, 2003 (Saturday)
   EMERGENCY CONVERGENCE ON THE WHITE HOUSE
to STOP THE WAR ON IRAQ  with parallel actions in
       SAN FRANCISCO & LOS ANGELES .
             http://www.internationalanswer.org/
  http://www.internationalanswer.org/campaigns/m15/index.html

  Buses, vans and car caravans are traveling from over 100
cities in more than 35 states to join the March 15 demonstrations.
The listing of transportation being organized from cities around
the country is updated daily.     For the current contacts --
or to sign up to list the transportation options from your city -- go to:
  http://www.internationalanswer.org/campaigns/m15/m15transp.html

To be a volunteer for anti-war movement or donation info. , click :
  http://www.internationalanswer.org/campaigns/m15/index.html#transp
  Thanks so much for your urgent help for the world peace .
==========================================

(Note:  You are welcome to write your own letters and express
your own opinions.  thanks .  )

SAMPLE LETTER : (Please place your Name, City, State and
  Country at the BEGINNING and END of your letter:  :
------------------------------------------------------


FROM:  Your Name,
               Your City, Your State,
               Your Zip Code,
               Your Country,

(**Please hand this important letter to Secretary of State Powell
       in person.   Thank you.)

Subject:  Please Stop the Bloody War on Iraq.   Thanks.

Dear Secretary of State Colin Powell,

   We thought you were a great American soldier who
would help to promote the peace and stop the cruel war .

However, lately we are shocked to find that you are relentlessly
promoting the war to please the Washington war hawks .

We wonder are those war hawks using your "popularity"
to push for their bloody agenda ??
The war on Iraq is unfair, unjust and very cruel .

  We urge you please use your wisdom to advise President
Bush to promote the Peace and Stop the War now.
Thank you for your efforts for world peace and humanity.

Sincerely,

Your Name,
Your City, State,
Your Zipcode
Your Country.
=====================================

CONTACT INFORMATION :

1:   IT IS EXTREMELY IMPORTANT TO CONTACT
U.S. SECRETARY OF  STATE COLIN POWELL :
PLEASE BE ABSOLUTELY POLITE , PLEASE !!!

Address:

Honorable Secretary of State Powell,
Secretary of State Colin Powell,
U.S. Department of State
Washington, D.C. 20520    U.S.A.

a:  Tel:  202-647-4000, Please politely ask Switchboard
                    Operator to transfer you to the Comment line.
b:  Tel: 202-647-6575
c:  Tel:  202-647-5302 ,
d:  Tel:  202-647-5150

e:  FAX : 202-261-8577                  (in U.S. )

f:  EMAIL Addresses :

     secretary@... ,

    Please also copy the following short list of
    addresses and paste into your BCC field  :
    (note: it must have a comma between the addresses).

     AskPublicAffairs@...,
     mpowell@...,
     taharallys@... ,
     senator@...,
     senator_byrd@...,
     USUNHostCountry@... ,
     oigwebmaster@... ,
     whitman.christine@...,
     ann.veneman@... ,
     The.Secretary@...,
     Rod.Paige@... ,

=====================================

2:  PLEASE SEND A LETTER TO UN :
    Simply and politely ask them to :

     PLEASE HELP TO STOP THE WAR !

   Please address to :  Dear United Nation ,
  Please place the following address in TO field :
  Email address:    inquiries@...

  Then Please also COPY the following  list and PASTE
  into BCC field in your email.
  NOTE : It must have a comma between addresses.

  (*** ATTENTION:  You may divide the following list into smaller
  list contains for no more than 50 email addresses each time in your
  BCC field due to some ISP limitations  .  )

  newscentre@..., official.mail@... ,
  unscat@... ,
  info@...,     Webmaster@...,
  buchanane@...,   info@...,
  unmovic-admin@...,   official.mail@... ,
  coi@...,  desai@...,  ossac@...,
  gustafik@...,  newellk@...,  webadmin.hchr@...,
  ochany@... ,  information@...,   mail@... ,
  webmaster@...,  ictr-press@..., sgpun@... ,
  buchanane@...,  dsd@... ,   info@...,
  info@...,  unmovic-admin@...,
  ddaweb@...,    mail@...,
  information@...,  www@... ,
  stefdegroot@... ,  president@... ,
  president@... ,  webmaster@... ,
  stefdegroot@... ,  press@... ,
   ccc@... , comentarios@... ,
  oil@... ,  oumarou@... ,
  info@... ,  webmaster@...,
  afghanistan@...,  afghanistan@...,
  albania@...,  algeria@...,
  andorra@..., angola@...,
  antigua@...,  argentina@...,
  armenia@..., australia@...,
  austria@...,   azerbaijan@...,
  bahamas@..., bahrain@...,
  bangladesh@...,  barbados@...,
  belarus@...,  belgium@...,
  belize@...,  benin@...,
  bhutan@...,  bolivia@...,
  bosnia@...,  botswana@...,
  braun@...,  brunei@...,
  bulgaria@..., burkinafaso@...,
  burundi@...,  cambodia@...,
  cameroon@...,   capeverde@...,
  caf@...,  chad@...,
  chile@...,  colombia@...,
  comoros@...,   congo@...,
  costarica@...,  ivorycoast@...,
  croatia@...,  cuba@...,
  cyprus@...,  czechrepublic@...,
  drcongo@...,  djibouti@...
  dominica@...,  dr@...,
  ecuador@...,  egypt@...,
  elsalvador@..., eqguinea@...,
  eritrea@...,  estonia@...,
  ethiopia@...,  fiji@...,
  finland@...,  france@...,
  france-presse@..., gabon@...,
  gambia@...,  georgia@...,
  germany@...,  ghana@...,
  greece@...,  grenada@...,
  guatemala@..., guinea@...,
  guinea-bissau@...,  guyana@...,
  haiti@...,  honduras@...,
  hungary@...,  india@...,
  indonesia@...,  iran@...,
  iraq@...,  ireland@...,
  italy@...,  jamaica@...,
  jordan@...,  kazakhstan@...,
  kenya@..., dprk@...,
  korea@...,  kuwait@...,
  kyrgyzstan@..., laos@...,
  latvia@...,  lebanon@...,
  lesotho@...,  liberia@...,
  libya@...,  liechtenstein@...,
  Lithuanialithuania@..., luxembourg@...,
  macedonia@...,   madagascar@...,
  malawi@...,  malaysia@...,
  maldives@..., mali@...,
  malta@..., marshallislands@...,
  mauritania@...,  mauritius@...,
  mexico@..., micronesia@...,
  moldova@...,  monaco@...,
  mongolia@...,  pgansukh@...,
  morocco@...,  benebish@...,
  mozambique@..., myanmar@...,
  namibia@...,  nepal@...,
  netherlands@...,  newzealand@...,
  nicaragua@...,  niger@...,
  nigeria@..., oman@...,
  pakistan@...,  Palaupalau@...,
  panama@...,  png@...,
  paraguay@...,  peru@...,
  philippines@...,  poland@...,
  portugal@...,  qatar@...,
  romania@...,  rwanda@...,
  samoa@...,  sanmarino@...,
  stp@...,  saudiarabia@...,
  senegal@..., seychelles@...,
  sierraleone@...,  singapore@...,
  slovakia@...,  slovenia@...,
  solomonislands@...,  somalia@...,
  southafrica@...,  spain@...,
  srilanka@...,  stkn@...,
  stlucia@...,   stvg@...,
  sudan@...,  suriname@...,
  swaziland@...,  sweden@...,
  syria@...,  tajikistan@...,
  thailand@...,  togo@...,
  tto@...,  tunisia@...,
  turkey@...,  turkmenistan@...,
  uganda@...,  ukraine@...,
  uae@...,  tanzania@...,
  uk@...,  uruguay@...,
  uzbekistan@...,  vanuatu@...,
  venezuela@...,   vietnam@...,
  yemen@...,  yugoslavia@...,
  zambia@..., zimbabwe@...,
  nsai@...,
=======================================

Thanks so much for your urgent help for the world peace.

oui c'est ca car la plupart des pays utiliseent ce therme de democratie pour couvrir des defauts qui se trouvent au sein de ces pays et qui peux pas affronter en realité 

 la democratie c'est un voile   de la realité  alors  nous on sais ca  mais les autres est ce qu'ils savent ca est ce qu'ils sont au courant .

 je pense que oui  ,mais ils ne peuvent pas s'exprimer  car ils ont peur des grands lions  alors  c'est ca ce qu'on appelle la democratie   pour vous. avoir peur de parler correctement,  pour moi c'est rien du tout des salades du cacao

qui se preparent tres bien avant de la jeter  au citoyens du monde pour la consommer stupidement

Salut Bamaba,
tres ravi de te lire et constater que tu es interesse
par ce qui se passe dans le monde
en effet mon point de vue quant à l'accusation porte
contre la religion est que à voir ce qu'on fait les
musulmans,ce qu'ils font et ce qu'ils pourraient faire
encore on a de bonne raison de penser que la religion
en est la cause
peut_etre est-tu musulman mais si tu comprenais et
voiyaient un peu la reaction de certains quand ils
entendent "americain" tu verrais que c'est comme ci on
les inculquais cela on les enseignait dans leur lieu
de rassemblem
excuse-moi pour ce point vue s'il est flou c'est que
je compte m'exprimer plus clairem tres prochainem
   porte toi bien
      à bientot
         raoul,

___________________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!? -- Une adresse @yahoo.fr gratuite et en français !
Yahoo! Mail : http://fr.mail.yahoo.com

yes it is  because the majority of the countries this theme of democratie to
cover defects which are within these countries and which cannot face in reality
the democratie it is a veil of the reality then us one know that but the others
is what they know that is what they are well-informed. I think that yes, but
they cannot be expressed because they are afraid of the large lions then it is
that what is called the democratie to be afraid to you to speak correctly, for
me it is nothing the whole of salads of the cocoa who preparent themselves very
well before throwing it to the citizens of the world to consume it stupidly


---------------------------------
Do You Yahoo!? -- Une adresse @yahoo.fr gratuite et en français !
Testez le nouveau Yahoo! Mail

Hi
I agree. We must have a vision of that fundamental physical unity that is
the human race (and even the entire world both human and non-human).  The
power elites know about the importance of the principle of "divide and
conquer".  By keeping the ordinary people divided and at odds, they can
work their own will without any restrictions.  In a world republic, built
upon democratic principles, the ordinary people would have a chance to curb
the excesses of these groups, as well as put an end to destructive
conflicts that do not serve their interests, but merely burn up resources
that are desperately needed elsewhere.  The often misunderstood fact about
a united world republic is that it would not merely make war illegal, but
that it would reduce (if not eliminate) the underlying causes of war, and
violence in general, by providing a framework for the free competition of
ideas in a nonviolent way.

We need a free, united world republic in which every human being is a
citizen with fundamental human rights.

Peace and Unity,
Gary

At 12:52 AM 2/14/2003 +0000, S. Groth <sgroth@...> wrote:
>In some discussions I've been  advocating that anti-war rallies ought
>to be peoples manifestations against both militaristic sides...
>actually the rallies should go both to the american AND the iraqi
>embassies .... to be for freedom and democracy, is not just opposing
>the elite's plans in our part of the world, there's a need for
>expanding the protests into an action from civil society to take the
>responsibility for building true peace, freedom and democracy .. in
>only questioning our own powerelites statements, we may promote peace
>for the iraqi people in the sense, absence of war... but miss
>solidarity in working for aims like true peoples selfdetermination -
>not as people = nation, nation = government.
>
>For a non-violent people to people solidarity fighting ALL political,
>military and financial powerelites that try to involve us in their
>conflicts of interest, quest for honour and glory, dominance and
>control .... Against both Bush and Saddam..
>  As a father I have more interest in raising my kid(s) in a world of
>peace in common with an iraqi father, than we have to stand behind our
>political leaders waving their oblong things.
>
>       Sören Groth
>
>http://www.freewebs.com/tcfactory/
>
>
>
>"I have believed that the only way peace can be achieved is through world
>government" (Jawaharal Nehru)
>
>For more information: www.worldservice.org and info@...
>
>
>Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>

Gary K. Shepherd
Documents Center
Morris Library
SIU
Carbondale, IL 62901
618-536-2163
gshepher@...

Good day all,
   I am Dr. Solomon Judah El.
I currently am not a world citizen in the REGISTERED
sence.

I just can not afford to do so at this time (Become A
registered World Citizen), but I am planing to do so
in the future when my money allows me too.

In any case I did not write today to go over my money
problemes with the world but to respond to another
problem that I have been getting in my email from
WorldCitizen@yahoogroups.com.

There are people out there blaiming things on
religion. They are putting out that religion is the
problem with the world and its governments today. I am
so sick of people pointing the finger to every littele
thing that they can focus there eye-site on as the
root of there problems.

My friends religion was made up by man and then
instituted by man..

Government was made up by man also.. As well as law,
code, statue, and a host of other things we may or may
not like in this world today..
So you see it is not the objects that man creates that
are the problem, it is the MAN...

It is time that we take a look at the real problem
that being ourselves. Then will will be able to
resolve our worldly problems...

This is easy said than done for most men are slaves to
there ego. Being an inividual has rendered the masses
BLIND and FOOLISH. It is very hard to tell a fool to
check himself...

So NO RELIGION is not THE PROBLEM....IT IS MAN...

DR EL

 DEAR MR Michael Zargarov d'Buchert

THANKS FOR UR EMAIL.DEAR I M ALSO PLANNING TO BECOME A WORLD CITIZEN LIKE U.I M AGREE WITH U ON UR POINTES.WHERE R U LIVING IN USA ??.

THANKS DN REGARD

SHAKEEL AHMAD MALIK

OLBIA SS ITALY

 "Mzargarov <mzargarov@...>" <mzargarov@...> wrote:

I am Michael Zargarov d'Buchert, Szekely Zigani-Vajda.
  I live in Houston, Texas but have considered and called myself a
"World Citizen" since 1974. I am 40 years young. I have lived in 8
countries other than my own (US) and have travelled to and through 61
others.
  I feel, at this critical juncture when all the forces of capital
and greed are aiming my country to war-unending, to make broader
connection with like-minded individuals.
  I am currently active in the Anti-Bush-War-on-Iraq movement.
  I am gravitating towards a Green-Socialist political mindset.
  I am fleeing religion...drawing closer to a Humanist aspect.

  I hope to contact others...and to help in unifying what may be left
of a thinking and aspiring world community.




"I have believed that the only way peace can be achieved is through world government" (Jawaharal Nehru)

For more information: www.worldservice.org and info@...


Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.

DEAR BROTHER IS ISLAM ahmed khochen

SALAM

I M SORRY FOR UR CURRANT POSITION.I M SHAKEEL AHMAD FROM PAKISTAN AND NOW A DAYS IN ITALY AND REALLY IN BAD DAYS EVEN MORE THEN U.AT LEAT U HAVE 1 CAR WASH BUT I DONT HAVE EVEN MONEY FOR MY DAILY FOOD BE CUZ I M WAITING FOR  MY ITALIAN STAY PERMIT UNTIL MY PERMIT I CAN NOT GET ANY JOB DUA FOR ME.DO U HAVE SOME FAMILY OR ALONE ?'.I HAVE LOT OF RESPONSIBILITIES AT HOME EVEN I M SINGLE 28 YEARS OLD.ANY WAY U DONT WORRY JUST TRY HARD AND HARD IN UR COUNTRY REALLY NO GOOD TO LEAVE THAT UR GR8 COUNTRY BE CUZ NOW CONDATION ISNOT LIKE PAST IN EUROPE FOR ALL.

WITH LOVE

SHAKEEL AHMAD MALIK

 "khiram33 <khiram33@...>" <khiram33@...> wrote:

dears brothers,
first I am sorry of any importunity in sending this message to you
but I will send it in the name of the humanity.
and I hope that my message not gona be abandoned from your side...
my name is ahmed khochen 33.y.o. lebanese  resident in lebanon
currently
from -9-1997  and I want to tell you a short story about me
in 1988 I ve leaveing the secondary school because a financial
problems of my father hho wast no afford to pay out
the school installment to me or my brothers even the food expenses
was a problem then...
from my side and from my sensation of responsiblity Ive finding
a job just to help my brothers to stay in the school .and it is done.
till the expenses becoming a big onus on me I went to
africa(senegal) in 1999 to work to. this time it was a good job
and I,ve opening my own shop in senegal after 2 year
and after a few years of sending the biger sum of my stipend
my brothers has been graduated from there universitys
and thank god they are in a good positions now.
the first one is my biger brother he is a bank director here in
lebanon.
the second one (my big brother to) engineer(civil) in nigera
and my little brother is a signor cook .
I am so proud of them...
about me...
I am broken.I lost all my money once in helping my family and
poors peoples in senegal
twice by a commercial attack by the side of my own uncle
(big brother of my father)
I return from africa to lebanon in -9/1997
return to the point of zero owner of a little car wash with out
any career...
no body help...
I am not asking money from any one .I am not asking any
substantial thing from any one
all what I want to say is since Iam coming to lebanon I feel that
I lost all my humans rights and I canot travel to any where
to restart my career and life no country want to give me
a visa spit of I,ve presenting all documents they need
so as france I havent 2 visa to france first 6 months second 1 year
the one year was in -9/1997 .
with thes they refuse to give me a visa in -2002 with out any
reason so Iam pinfolded in side a country of 10000 kilometer...
I am a human and and I,ve all the right to be free free free
so please help me to restert my life
and please send me a message soon
I am waiting your respondon
khiram33@... or akhochen@...
thank you so much
best regards
                        ahmed khochen






"I have believed that the only way peace can be achieved is through world government" (Jawaharal Nehru)

For more information: www.worldservice.org and info@...


Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.

Congratulations Dave, on your enlightenment. I have no personal
experience with any of the world citizen travel documents, but I do
have the paperback book written by the founder, Gerry Davis (spelling?)
and recommend it as well written and entertaining.

I also recommend reading some free online articles to further your
personal education.

Clear Your Mind Reports:
and: <http://www.buildfreedom.com/dir_clear.htm>
Discourse on Voluntary Servitude (next):
<http://www.buildfreedom.com/tl/tl06.shtml>
<http://www.buildfreedom.com/tl/tl07b.shtml> (Nature of Government)
Bastiat, "The Government" <http://www.mind-trek.com/treatise/fb-g.htm>
Lysander Spooner writing at this Mind Trek site also.

Good Luck to you.

I realise that speaking up against organized religion may be seen by some as
personal attacks on themselves. I can't help if readers identify strongly
with the worldviews included in religious sects and get offended, though I
still insist that I write only in the spirit of internet-beased discussions-
"attack ideas, not people" and if anything, only to inspire thoughtful
discussion on this worthy list.
(Again, I ask the list owners if there's any way to avoid the delay in
posting to the list. Is the delay due to the need for moderation, and if so,
is it really necessary?)


I for one refuse to accept that religion is necessary as the only way to
give humans a hopeful outlook for the future, or that it's necessary for
morality & ethics either among societies or for individuals.
I humbly say that I try to be a good person. I don't do this in the least
because old texts or human institutions which grew up out of them tell me
to.
I try to be good to others not because I fear harsh judgement by a deity.
I'm nice to people because all there is that matters is people! If you shout
obscenities at the person who cut you off in traffic, you've done a hostile
act as your response to a unique moment in history, to another thinking
feeling being. Is that what you want to leave behind?

Quite contrary to the view that a godless universe is pointless and
meaningless and there's no reason to be nice to each other, it's all the
more important to be good.
The most precious thing in space/time is human experience. I submit that a
poor life means a poor experience in space/time. It's not enough to say that
the departed are with the maker now, so it doesn't matter as much if they
suffered needlessly in life. They are gone, and the only testament to them
is the memory they left with the living. A person who leaves nothing because
they died young or uneducated so they couldn't leave written wisdom behind
is lost to history. All the people in our history who have died young after
a brutish life in doubt, pain and fear, are the worst kind of wasted effort
concievable, and a loud and obvious call for change. If they leave nothing
but a memory of a miserable brief existance, in the living after they are
gone, we all are poorer.
A nasty person isn't being punished or educated in the errors of their ways
in the afterlife. All they leave and the only backlash of their evil is the
memory of the pain they inflicted while they walked the Earth.
I choose to not leave such memories in the people I've touched.
I try to be good to people because they matter, not to convince the big guy
upstairs to not torture me for all eternity. (a brazen hipocrisy as bad as
Pascal's wager -in which belief in god is proclaimed because it's the safer
course since we don't know whether or not he exists to throw us in hell if
we don't believe in him.
Doing good deeds or believing in a religion because it's the safe way to
avoid an eternity of torment in gods own private torture chamber isn't much
of a basis for a good life.)

Claiming belief because of fear of death is not much better. "no intensity
of thought and feeling can preserve an individual life beyond the grave"
just means that we had better do the best we can while we're here. No second
coming or celestial kingdom on its way to save us from ourselves. We are the
ones who have to do something to make this a better universe for minds and
memories -which are the most important thing.

I'll dig through the writings of Dawkins and Russell to see where they were
going with those ideas you quoted about the meaninglessness of existence
without a god. I'll bet that they salvaged a bright prospect for a human
existence -not one where we are the playthings and slaves of a deity.
If you don't read those passages with the preconception that a godless
universe is hostile and meaningless, then a humanist stance comes out: We
must be good to each other and do our best to make the world a better place,
because we are all we've got.

>We need religion in its pure original forms -- the part in which all
>the world's major religion are in solid agreement -- and we need to
>cut off the diseased parts that run in direct opposition to these
>foundations of excellent human behavior that are essentially the
>building blocks of a stable social order.

Sounds nice, but it's definitely a recipe for a multi-directional Jihad. One
scary thing about religion is that they all claim to have the exclusive
right to possession of Truth, and that they are all soverign and possessed
of the ability to force their views over all others -indeed, they must try
to get all others to accept their views, since it is the One True Word Of
God, and it must be spread and all other belief systems are wrong -not just
incorrect, but actively evil. There is no single "part in which all the
world's major religions are in solid agreement" except that they eacg are
right and everybody else is wrong (an indication or symptom of insanity, by
the way).
You cannot possibly get all major old religions to alter their views and
accept that any new view is in fact correct -the Protestants tried that, and
centuries of war resulted (and are ongoing today).

I also take exception to categorizing Red China or the Soviet union or
Hitler's Nazis as examples of a non-theist society.
They don't have a deist religion, true, but they have another kind of
delusional worldview almost as scary. They forsake free inquiry -much like
religions do- but they replaced it with leader worship and belief in a
social structure which was fundamentally flawed and as doomed to collapse as
a tower built on sand. Their forced belief in these delusional social
structures bore many resemblances to religion: faith is belief in something
with no evidence, and adhering to views propounded by leaders in power-bloc
structures for the sole benefit of perpetuating that power structure and
that leadership clique.
Sounds more like a religion than a rational and free inquiry, democratic,
modern societal view.


From David Garcia
>What really frightened me in China was the dull, grey, lifeless, dead
>spirit that was infused into the society through this religious
>irreligion.  Materialist ideologies like communism and capitalism can
>become opiates of the people too!  And the gradual disappearance of
>the beautiful qualities of genuine kindness, love, fairness, justice,
>honesty, truthfulness, reciprocity, unselfishness, service, and so on
>is scary.  You really see that in nations that worked so hard to
>remove religion.  Look at all the corruption that existed in the old
>USSR's world.  And it still exists.  When you go to a country where
>there's a fairly strong religious sense in the culture, even if its
>priesthood is abysmally corrupt and rotten, there's a nice spirit in
>the air, and there's a general feeling of aliveness, vibrance and
>natural affection among the people.
>
>I see the day when, after we have nearly destroyed our world and left
>only a part of the world's population that the world's leaders will
>discuss what the cause of all the trouble was.  And they will decide
>that it is prejudice between humans, especially religious prejudice
>(which is not religion at all but a horrible perversion of it).  So
>they will take steps to remove it from our world.  And then, when
>we've seen the horrid consequences of that - something i've already
>seen and lived in - they will finally realize that we humans cannot
>live without religion and will possibly investigate them all and find
>one that is most suitable to the times.
>
>In support of this, i'd like to quote from Richard Dawkins and
>Bertrand Russell, to give you an idea of where an anti-religious
>materialist stance leads:
>
>· "Nature is not cruel, only pitilessly indifferent.  This
>lesson is one of the hardest for humans to learn.  We cannot accept
>that things might be neither good nor evil, neither cruel nor kind,
>but simply callous: indifferent to all suffering, lacking all
>purpose.... In a universe of electrons and selfish genes, blind
>physical forces and genetic replications, some people are going to
>get lucky, and you won't find any rhyme or reason in it, nor any
>justice.  The universe that we observe has precisely the properties
>we should expect if there is, at the bottom, no design, no purpose,
>no evil and no good, nothing but pitiless indifference."  (River Out
>of Eden)
>
>Or how about this gem from Bertrand Russell?
>
>· " ... the world which science presents for our belief is even
>more purposeless, more void of meaning, [than a world in which God is
>malevolent].  Amid such a world, if anywhere, our ideals henceforward
>must find a home.  That man is the product of causes which had no
>prevision of the end they were achieving; that his origin, his
>growth, his hopes and fears, his loves and his beliefs, are but the
>outcome of accidental collocations of atoms; that no fire, no
>heroism, no intensity of thought and feeling, can preserve an
>individual life beyond the grave; that all the labours of the ages,
>all the devotion, all the inspiration, all the noonday brightness of
>human genius, are destined to extinction in the vast death of the
>solar system, and the whole temple of Man's achievement must
>inevitably be buried beneath the debris of a universe in ruins—all
>these things, if not quite beyond dispute, are yet so nearly certain
>that no philosophy which rejects them can hope to stand.  Only within
>the scaffolding of these truths, only on the firm foundation of
>unyielding despair, can the soul's habitation henceforth be safely
>built."  (Why I am not a Christian)
>
>Well, this is a recipe for despair and a great deal of trouble in
>society.  If humans feel that there is no reason for living, that
>it's all for nothing, then why be honest?  Why be fair and just?  Why
>be kind?  In fact the history of civilization shows us graphically
>the consequences of living in this condition.  That's when
>civilizations decline and finally collapse.

In another message David wrote
>... just because the Torch of Religion has been used to set
>fire to the structures of our civilization doesn't mean that it wasn't
>originally intended to light the way through the
>darkness of a humanity that is otherwise stumbling about in
>confusion, selfishness, greed, belligerence and ultimate self-defeat.
>I'm in agreement with Toynbee that humans cannot live without
>religion of some kind -- otherwise we have no guidelines and
>original impetus by which to make humans cooperative, honest,
>fair and kind and will see a gradual collapse into humans
>behaving ever more viciously and wildly, with ever more warring
>and violence.

>But i believe that the roots of human behavior run even deeper than
>the psychology we currently barely grasp, and that these run down
>into deeply subconscious areas of ourselves that we can only call our
>spiritual foundations.  When we are at war with ourselves deep down,
>we war outwardly too.  This is where the repair, the healing must
>first take place.  And it is precisely this deep, hidden area in us
>that religion, when it is fresh, vibrant, young and full of immense
>power, can can work on, changing dishonest, corrupt beings into good
>people filled with ideals of service, kindness, justice, fairness and
>integrity.  I'm quite convinced that these attributes appear in
>humans only through channels that trace back ultimately to some
>religious outpouring during the earliest days of that religion.
>
>That we humans have so often been unable to rise up to the high
>standards of the virtues promoted by all the major religions is not
>the fault of these religions or their Founders but rather to be
>ascribed to our weakness.  The patient who refuses to follow the
>prescription of a wise doctor and gets sick cannot blame the doctor
>for his problems.

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----- Original Message -----

From: WorldCitizen@yahoogroups.com

To: WorldCitizen@yahoogroups.com

Sent: Thursday, March 13, 2003 1:46 AM

Subject: [WorldCitizen] Digest Number 200

Message: 5
   Date: Fri, 7 Mar 2003 11:50:52 -0800 (PST)
   From: lamarr rollins-el <lamarrrollinsel@...>
Subject: Re: Re: Religion is the Problem/response

Good day all,
  I am Dr. Solomon Judah El.

There are people out there blaiming things on
religion. They are putting out that religion is the
problem with the world and its governments today. I am
so sick of people pointing the finger to every littele
thing that they can focus there eye-site on as the
root of there problems.

My friends religion was made up by man and then
instituted by man..

Government was made up by man also.. As well as law,
code, statue, and a host of other things we may or may
not like in this world today..
So you see it is not the objects that man creates that
are the problem, it is the MAN...

It is time that we take a look at the real problem
that being ourselves. Then will will be able to
resolve our worldly problems...

--Precisely. There is no God, no Satan, no Heaven, no Hell and no Angels. It's all superstition and the quicker it will diappeare the better. Then man (where are the women in your article?) can solve their own problems, but as long as everything is related (and excused) by referring to religious fantasies nothing can be solved.

This is easy said than done for most men

 

--and what about the women?

 

are slaves to there ego. Being an inividual has rendered the masses
BLIND and FOOLISH.

 

--They are helped along the blind way by the preists and mullahs (or whatever).

 

It is very hard to tell a fool to check himself...

--As the priests and the mullahs tell them that they are right anyway. Why then take a look?

So NO RELIGION is not THE PROBLEM....IT IS MAN...

As there is no God, no Satan, no Heaven, no Hell and no Angels there is only man and woman, all the living animals and the rest of the nature it's up to man and woman to solve those problems, but as long as they think that it's all in the hand of a God and what ever happens is God's will nothing will get solved, and I have no big hope it ever will. Religions have existed as far back as we know and decided the way people live. We will never, all of us, be wise enough to get rid of the religious fence.

 

You are right DR EL. Man (and woman) and their stupidity to let their lives be led by religions and their priests and mullahs (or whatever) is the problem, but that's nothing new.

 

Claes Persson

SWEDEN

0( :8-)