In the photos section there are five maps under the titla Parunuweap maps start
to finish. I added a red line to the last one which is the same as the first one
showing the route over the saddle next to Checkerboard Mesa. As I mention before
it is easier to follw thr oute going in and down to the river than it is going
out.
On the topo ap with Checkerboard Mesa on it, I tried in vain to hike out each of
the three canyons to the east of the real route. Each time I got cliff out
before turning around to try the next west canyon. Took e all day to hike out
from the river.
If I ever do it again which I know I will, I plan to maybe set up more rock
cairns.

--- In Zion_National_Park_Hiking@yahoogroups.com, "mojave_ben" <mojave_ben@...>
wrote:
>
> Like Joe, I love Parunuweap.  It was fun to run into a hiking group last
summer in Mineral Gulch as they were pouring over Joe's map :)
>
> Gary, what is the Poverty Wash/Canyon access like?  I presume you would start
from the lowpoint of the road which continues out to the SW and Poverty Flats? 
This is near the Indian Knoll legend on the topo.  There's another fork of the
canyon which crosses the more westerly going road but that looks pretty steep.
>
> I've hiked down the Poverty Flat road.  Hot and sunny and sandy on the way
out.  I drove in a few miles past the place where it dips into the headwaters of
Poverty Wash and on the way out my rental sedan only just barely made it up the
slope - would not recommend that and would not do it again.
>
> Anyway, what is the bottom like for footing, presence of shade, and any
technical difficulty to descent Poverty Wash?  It might be a good alternate and
I might try it this summer.
>
> As for the Misery exit route, I've already said this is tough and you need to
know your way around with route finding over slickrock and I agree heartily with
what Joe said.  That being said, I did it with my son when he was 8 and we had
enough time to hike upstream from the plaque to the mouth of Misery.  Totally
awesome.  We did put him on belay on the descent across the last big slickrock
slab, but not on the way out.  And we had carefully cached water.  And it was a
13 hour day.  And we got bloodied and bruised.  But it was one of the best day
hikes I've ever done!
>
> I'd really like to do the Misery technical descent, but I'm a fairly novice
canyoneer so approach that idea with caution.
>

In the Photos section, in the "Barracks Obstacle" album I posted a couple of
pics of it.
Cliff


--- In Zion_National_Park_Hiking@yahoogroups.com, "GcP" <garyclaytonpalmer@...>
wrote:
>
>
> What log ja area are you refering to Joe?
> --- In Zion_National_Park_Hiking@yahoogroups.com, "Joe Braun" <joe@> wrote:
> >
> > Hi Cliff - I hear you. I actually don't recommend it to anybody even though
I love talking about it. But I don't think it will ever really get crowded down
there because there just isn't any family-friendly easy day hike to get through
it. And *everybody* hates the Checkerboard Mesa exit, so its grueling reputation
keeps most from wanting to come back. And that log jam spot that we talk about
is another good deterrent.
> >
> > To put it into perspective though... I've been through six times now since
2003, and I've only bumped into one other set of people... back in 2003. My dad
and I caught up with two backpackers filtering water by the Powell plaque. Every
other time, it's been a very lonely place, especially upstream of Misery. -Joe
> >
> >
> > --- In Zion_National_Park_Hiking@yahoogroups.com, "Clifton" <kol84b@> wrote:
> > >
> > > I almost wish you would stop talking people into hiking Parunuweap. It's
starting to get more and more visitors. The last time I went down Misery Canyon
we even ran into another group, the first time that has ever happened in the
twelve or fifteen years I have been hiking down there.
> >
>

It's the narrow section with a few big boulders roughly half-a-mile upstream
from the mouth of Misery. Cliff noticed early last year that there was a big log
jam that had built up behind the second boulder. When I went through in May, it
was starting to grow its own sandbar and vegetation. I'm really curious what it
looks like this year?

From May 2009:
http://www.citrusmilo.com/zion2009/joebraun_barracks508.jpg


--- In Zion_National_Park_Hiking@yahoogroups.com, "GcP" <garyclaytonpalmer@...>
wrote:
>
>
> What log ja area are you refering to Joe?

I remember that last shot of the indian ruins on the opposite southwest side of
the river. It looked like it would be a difficult place to get to from above the
cliff. Its one of the first ruins in the canyon just before the falls.

--- In Zion_National_Park_Hiking@yahoogroups.com, "Clifton" <kol84b@...> wrote:
>
>
> In the Photos section, in the "Barracks Obstacle" album I posted a couple of
pics of it.
> Cliff
>
>
> --- In Zion_National_Park_Hiking@yahoogroups.com, "GcP" <garyclaytonpalmer@>
wrote:
> >
> >
> > What log ja area are you refering to Joe?
> > --- In Zion_National_Park_Hiking@yahoogroups.com, "Joe Braun" <joe@> wrote:
> > >
> > > Hi Cliff - I hear you. I actually don't recommend it to anybody even
though I love talking about it. But I don't think it will ever really get
crowded down there because there just isn't any family-friendly easy day hike to
get through it. And *everybody* hates the Checkerboard Mesa exit, so its
grueling reputation keeps most from wanting to come back. And that log jam spot
that we talk about is another good deterrent.
> > >
> > > To put it into perspective though... I've been through six times now since
2003, and I've only bumped into one other set of people... back in 2003. My dad
and I caught up with two backpackers filtering water by the Powell plaque. Every
other time, it's been a very lonely place, especially upstream of Misery. -Joe
> > >
> > >
> > > --- In Zion_National_Park_Hiking@yahoogroups.com, "Clifton" <kol84b@>
wrote:
> > > >
> > > > I almost wish you would stop talking people into hiking Parunuweap. It's
starting to get more and more visitors. The last time I went down Misery Canyon
we even ran into another group, the first time that has ever happened in the
twelve or fifteen years I have been hiking down there.
> > >
> >
>

Wow, nice picture. Last time I went down it was in September 2008 from the Mt
Carmel entrance to the Misery Canyon and back. There was only a small floating
jam.

--- In Zion_National_Park_Hiking@yahoogroups.com, "Joe Braun" <joe@...> wrote:
>
> It's the narrow section with a few big boulders roughly half-a-mile upstream
from the mouth of Misery. Cliff noticed early last year that there was a big log
jam that had built up behind the second boulder. When I went through in May, it
was starting to grow its own sandbar and vegetation. I'm really curious what it
looks like this year?
>
> From May 2009:
> http://www.citrusmilo.com/zion2009/joebraun_barracks508.jpg
>
>
> --- In Zion_National_Park_Hiking@yahoogroups.com, "GcP" <garyclaytonpalmer@>
wrote:
> >
> >
> > What log ja area are you refering to Joe?
>

Hi, I am planning oh hiking in Zion on March 16. Since there are snow and a lot
of the trails are close, can someone recommend to me which trails are
interesting to hike?  Thanks

Thanks everyone for your suggestions.  I got a permit for the Subway and also
think we might go up past Scounts Landing after we do Angel's Landing and also
hike up to Observation Point.  All of your input has been extremely helpful.

--- In Zion_National_Park_Hiking@yahoogroups.com, "GcP" <garyclaytonpalmer@...>
wrote:
>
> Wow, nice picture. Last time I went down it was in September 2008 from the Mt
Carmel entrance to the Misery Canyon and back. There was only a small floating
jam.
>
> --- In Zion_National_Park_Hiking@yahoogroups.com, "Joe Braun" <joe@> wrote:
> >
> > It's the narrow section with a few big boulders roughly half-a-mile upstream
from the mouth of Misery. Cliff noticed early last year that there was a big log
jam that had built up behind the second boulder. When I went through in May, it
was starting to grow its own sandbar and vegetation. I'm really curious what it
looks like this year?
> >
> > From May 2009:
> > http://www.citrusmilo.com/zion2009/joebraun_barracks508.jpg
> >
> >
> > --- In Zion_National_Park_Hiking@yahoogroups.com, "GcP" <garyclaytonpalmer@>
wrote:
> > >
> > >
> > > What log ja area are you refering to Joe?
> >
>

Some friends and I are heading to southern Utah at the end of March, and I
wanted to take them on some hikes both in Grand Staircase and around Zion.  I
thought about the Parunaweap canyon (I havent done that one) just outside the
park, but am worried that I will be too cold.  When I worked at the park in
2004, I did Pine Creek in April I think and good lord was it cold, a mistake
without a wetsuit.  So I have been worried ever since about the cold in these
canyons.  Does anyone know what Parunuweap would be like in late March?  I have
heard that there is wading, which I think would be ok for a little bit, but
swimming would be too much probably.

Any other Zion slot suggestions for this time?  We also will not have harnesses
and are not looking to do technical routes, so I dont really expect to do any of
the permitted routes, perhaps just some stuff near Kolob if Parunuweap will be
too cold.

Because of our restrictions, I was mainly planning on exploring in the GSENM
region, and have a basic guidebook (I've never been there), but would love other
suggestions for cool slots that wouldn't freeze us in water.  My hope was to
find a canyon to backpack into, explore the next day, and hike out the third.

Thanks

Damian

I am not sure but being the Parunuweap is so deep and narrow, running basically
east/west it could be a cold hike. The upper Parunuweap might be okay between 89
and the Barracks as it is a wider open canyon. But once you get down into the
area called the Barracks and have to wade in the water alomst all the time it
could be quite cold. It is much better in June thru October.

--- In Zion_National_Park_Hiking@yahoogroups.com, "damianbickett"
<damianbickett@...> wrote:
>
> Some friends and I are heading to southern Utah at the end of March, and I
wanted to take them on some hikes both in Grand Staircase and around Zion.  I
thought about the Parunaweap canyon (I havent done that one) just outside the
park, but am worried that I will be too cold.  When I worked at the park in
2004, I did Pine Creek in April I think and good lord was it cold, a mistake
without a wetsuit.  So I have been worried ever since about the cold in these
canyons.  Does anyone know what Parunuweap would be like in late March?  I have
heard that there is wading, which I think would be ok for a little bit, but
swimming would be too much probably.
>
> Any other Zion slot suggestions for this time?  We also will not have
harnesses and are not looking to do technical routes, so I dont really expect to
do any of the permitted routes, perhaps just some stuff near Kolob if Parunuweap
will be too cold.
>
> Because of our restrictions, I was mainly planning on exploring in the GSENM
region, and have a basic guidebook (I've never been there), but would love other
suggestions for cool slots that wouldn't freeze us in water.  My hope was to
find a canyon to backpack into, explore the next day, and hike out the third.
>
> Thanks
>
> Damian
>

I would expect it to be cold and high from the snow melt run off. Last I checked
the East Fork of the Virgin that runs through Parunaweap is about 250% above
normal snow pack.

--- In Zion_National_Park_Hiking@yahoogroups.com, "damianbickett"
<damianbickett@...> wrote:
>
> Some friends and I are heading to southern Utah at the end of March, and I
wanted to take them on some hikes both in Grand Staircase and around Zion.  I
thought about the Parunaweap canyon (I havent done that one) just outside the
park, but am worried that I will be too cold.  When I worked at the park in
2004, I did Pine Creek in April I think and good lord was it cold, a mistake
without a wetsuit.  So I have been worried ever since about the cold in these
canyons.  Does anyone know what Parunuweap would be like in late March?  I have
heard that there is wading, which I think would be ok for a little bit, but
swimming would be too much probably.
>
> Any other Zion slot suggestions for this time?  We also will not have
harnesses and are not looking to do technical routes, so I dont really expect to
do any of the permitted routes, perhaps just some stuff near Kolob if Parunuweap
will be too cold.
>
> Because of our restrictions, I was mainly planning on exploring in the GSENM
region, and have a basic guidebook (I've never been there), but would love other
suggestions for cool slots that wouldn't freeze us in water.  My hope was to
find a canyon to backpack into, explore the next day, and hike out the third.
>
> Thanks
>
> Damian
>

If you're only in Zion for the 16th, perhaps you ought to concentrate your time
in the main canyon.  A hike up towards Observation Point might be possible.  You
should be able to make it to Echo Canyon which is a worthy enough turnaround
point should deep snow be encountered further up trail.

If you've more that a day scheduled, then you could set up a menu that might
include a desert hike like Coalpits or Chinle, a main canyon hike or two, plus
excursions in the east side of the park beyond the main tunnel.

You could work out your schedule based on the weather conditions.  Regardless of
where you're hiking you can park at a roadside trailhead and go as long and as
far as conditions warrant.  Even a short hike up to Twin Pines Arch/Progeny Peak
would be rewarding.


This forum's home page offers websites worth visiting (Bo/Tanya's or Joe B's)
where details with photos of the hikes in the park can be found.

--- In Zion_National_Park_Hiking@yahoogroups.com, "nungo85" <nungo85@...> wrote:
>
> Hi, I am planning oh hiking in Zion on March 16. Since there are snow and a
lot of the trails are close, can someone recommend to me which trails are
interesting to hike?  Thanks
>

I agree with Shaun and Gary, that Fat Mans and getting in the East Fork is too cold for March.  Its a magnificent hike but better done when warm!  But!  You can hike to the river and not get in the water, avoiding the slot section, then turn around.  A very pretty hike!

http://www.zionnational-park.com/parunuweap-hike.htm

March options - non technical slot canyons in and near Zion and GSENM:

Great hike in the GSENM!  Start at Bull Valley Gorge and End at Willis Creek!  Love this one!  Waweap Hoodoos is not a slot but a magnificent march hike!  It is hiking through a river bed though!  Gorgeous!

http://www.zionnational-park.com/gshike.htm

Near Zion:

Its been a wet year, but if the ground is dry - Mineral

http://www.zionnational-park.com/mineral-gulch.htm

Red Cave

Have you done the Narrows?  If not, you can rent gear in Zion and do it.  It is really the best out there for non-technical hikes.

http://www.zionnational-park.com/zion-narrows.htm

Consider Buckskin in Paria Canyon

http://www.zionnational-park.com/buckskin-gulch.htm

--- In Zion_National_Park_Hiking@yahoogroups.com, "Shaun" <trackrunner83@...> wrote:
>
> I would expect it to be cold and high from the snow melt run off. Last I checked the East Fork of the Virgin that runs through Parunaweap is about 250% above normal snow pack.
>
> --- In Zion_National_Park_Hiking@yahoogroups.com, "damianbickett" damianbickett@ wrote:
> >
> > Some friends and I are heading to southern Utah at the end of March, and I wanted to take them on some hikes both in Grand Staircase and around Zion. I thought about the Parunaweap canyon (I havent done that one) just outside the park, but am worried that I will be too cold. When I worked at the park in 2004, I did Pine Creek in April I think and good lord was it cold, a mistake without a wetsuit. So I have been worried ever since about the cold in these canyons. Does anyone know what Parunuweap would be like in late March? I have heard that there is wading, which I think would be ok for a little bit, but swimming would be too much probably.
> >
> > Any other Zion slot suggestions for this time? We also will not have harnesses and are not looking to do technical routes, so I dont really expect to do any of the permitted routes, perhaps just some stuff near Kolob if Parunuweap will be too cold.
> >
> > Because of our restrictions, I was mainly planning on exploring in the GSENM region, and have a basic guidebook (I've never been there), but would love other suggestions for cool slots that wouldn't freeze us in water. My hope was to find a canyon to backpack into, explore the next day, and hike out the third.
> >
> > Thanks
> >
> > Damian
> >
>

Provided that the road is passable I'd think you could have a grand time in
Hackberry.  You could do a nice loop that might take in the Watson Cabin, Sam
Pollock Arch, perhaps a little bushwacking to find the trail to loop you back
south towards Yellow Rock and the Paria River.  I would think you might get your
feet wet occasionally in Hackberry or Paria, but definitely no swimming.  The
same further north if you were doing the Willis/Bull Valley loop.  For me the
concern would be road passability.

You could always do WirePass/Buckskin, but you'd likely contend with mud and
more than ankle deep water.

--- In Zion_National_Park_Hiking@yahoogroups.com, "Shaun" <trackrunner83@...>
wrote:
>
> I would expect it to be cold and high from the snow melt run off. Last I
checked the East Fork of the Virgin that runs through Parunaweap is about 250%
above normal snow pack.
>
> --- In Zion_National_Park_Hiking@yahoogroups.com, "damianbickett"
<damianbickett@> wrote:
> >
> > Some friends and I are heading to southern Utah at the end of March, and I
wanted to take them on some hikes both in Grand Staircase and around Zion.  I
thought about the Parunaweap canyon (I havent done that one) just outside the
park, but am worried that I will be too cold.  When I worked at the park in
2004, I did Pine Creek in April I think and good lord was it cold, a mistake
without a wetsuit.  So I have been worried ever since about the cold in these
canyons.  Does anyone know what Parunuweap would be like in late March?  I have
heard that there is wading, which I think would be ok for a little bit, but
swimming would be too much probably.
> >
> > Any other Zion slot suggestions for this time?  We also will not have
harnesses and are not looking to do technical routes, so I dont really expect to
do any of the permitted routes, perhaps just some stuff near Kolob if Parunuweap
will be too cold.
> >
> > Because of our restrictions, I was mainly planning on exploring in the GSENM
region, and have a basic guidebook (I've never been there), but would love other
suggestions for cool slots that wouldn't freeze us in water.  My hope was to
find a canyon to backpack into, explore the next day, and hike out the third.
> >
> > Thanks
> >
> > Damian
> >
>

Hi, guys:

My weeklong trip at the end of April is beginning to take shape and I'm
wondering about some details.

I'm used to backpacking in very dry, sandy, windblown deserts where there are no
bugs to speak of. I'm wondering how Zion compares in practical terms.

Specifically, am I likely to need bug dope in late April/early May up at lower
Kolob Plateau or along the Right and Left Forks? Are there mosquitos, gnats,
scorpions???

The other backpacks I've done in deserts wreaked havoc on my backpacking stoves.
My friend and I always brought at least two for weeklong trips, because one
would invariably die before the trip was over. Sand would get in the fuel line
and no amount of field maintenance would bring it back to life. How about in
Zion? Is blowing sand likely to be a problem for my MSR Whisperlite (white gas)
stoves up at the higher elevations (Northgate, SGA, Right Fork Direct, Terry
Wash)?

I also usually bring one of my less cherished tents along on desert trips
because the zippers take a beating from blowing sand. What about in Zion? Is
this a problem?

Many thanks,
Michael

Hi Michael - I have often experienced insect annoyances during the spring and
just about any other time of year. From horse flies following me down Orderville
Canyon to little gnats doing suicide runs into my eyes and ears and innocuous
bites turning into itchy bumps that last for several weeks... definitely bring
the bug dope! It's a worthy luxury.

Now as for wind and sand, others may have different experiences, but I have
never really had a problem with equipment. There's not much deep sand or blowing
sand like around dunes, but then again, I've never been caught in a horrible
wind storm; I've always had calm weather for my backpacks. I use a Whisperlite
as well mostly in the Zion area and the little bugger has only needed field
maintenance once in the past few years. YMMV. -Joe

--- In Zion_National_Park_Hiking@yahoogroups.com, "mcooprec" <coopermb@...>
wrote:
>
> Hi, guys:
>
> My weeklong trip at the end of April is beginning to take shape and I'm
wondering about some details.
>
> I'm used to backpacking in very dry, sandy, windblown deserts where there are
no bugs to speak of. I'm wondering how Zion compares in practical terms.
>
> Specifically, am I likely to need bug dope in late April/early May up at lower
Kolob Plateau or along the Right and Left Forks? Are there mosquitos, gnats,
scorpions???
>
> The other backpacks I've done in deserts wreaked havoc on my backpacking
stoves. My friend and I always brought at least two for weeklong trips, because
one would invariably die before the trip was over. Sand would get in the fuel
line and no amount of field maintenance would bring it back to life. How about
in Zion? Is blowing sand likely to be a problem for my MSR Whisperlite (white
gas) stoves up at the higher elevations (Northgate, SGA, Right Fork Direct,
Terry Wash)?
>
> I also usually bring one of my less cherished tents along on desert trips
because the zippers take a beating from blowing sand. What about in Zion? Is
this a problem?
>
> Many thanks,
> Michael
>

That's very true Jeff, and its been a very wet Winter!  Even if its warm, if there is melting snow on those dirt roads in the GSENM it can be a problem as well as the road to Buckskin, but not as bad.

--- In Zion_National_Park_Hiking@yahoogroups.com, "jeff" <jb838@...> wrote:
>
> Provided that the road is passable I'd think you could have a grand time in Hackberry. You could do a nice loop that might take in the Watson Cabin, Sam Pollock Arch, perhaps a little bushwacking to find the trail to loop you back south towards Yellow Rock and the Paria River. I would think you might get your feet wet occasionally in Hackberry or Paria, but definitely no swimming. The same further north if you were doing the Willis/Bull Valley loop. For me the concern would be road passability.
>
> You could always do WirePass/Buckskin, but you'd likely contend with mud and more than ankle deep water.
>
> --- In Zion_National_Park_Hiking@yahoogroups.com, "Shaun" trackrunner83@ wrote:
> >
> > I would expect it to be cold and high from the snow melt run off. Last I checked the East Fork of the Virgin that runs through Parunaweap is about 250% above normal snow pack.
> >
> > --- In Zion_National_Park_Hiking@yahoogroups.com, "damianbickett" <damianbickett@> wrote:
> > >
> > > Some friends and I are heading to southern Utah at the end of March, and I wanted to take them on some hikes both in Grand Staircase and around Zion. I thought about the Parunaweap canyon (I havent done that one) just outside the park, but am worried that I will be too cold. When I worked at the park in 2004, I did Pine Creek in April I think and good lord was it cold, a mistake without a wetsuit. So I have been worried ever since about the cold in these canyons. Does anyone know what Parunuweap would be like in late March? I have heard that there is wading, which I think would be ok for a little bit, but swimming would be too much probably.
> > >
> > > Any other Zion slot suggestions for this time? We also will not have harnesses and are not looking to do technical routes, so I dont really expect to do any of the permitted routes, perhaps just some stuff near Kolob if Parunuweap will be too cold.
> > >
> > > Because of our restrictions, I was mainly planning on exploring in the GSENM region, and have a basic guidebook (I've never been there), but would love other suggestions for cool slots that wouldn't freeze us in water. My hope was to find a canyon to backpack into, explore the next day, and hike out the third.
> > >
> > > Thanks
> > >
> > > Damian
> > >
> >
>

August 25-27 I was planning to visit Zion.  I will be coming from the North Rim.
Spending the night at the east end of Zion, I was planning to enter Zion on the
east side, stopping at scenic points and taking short hikes to photograph some
awesome sights.  I was then planning to spend the night about midway through the
park (Springdale) then continue on the next day to the west side of the park. 
If I am not allowed to drive my car then I cannot plan to do this as I want.

I want to hike some of the easier trails that take 2 hours or less.  I have a
spot picked out for a sunrise photo so I want to get there very early.  Sorry
that info is on my laptop.  I think it is Angel something or other.

TIA
Jeannie

Hi Jeannie - Your plan sounds just dandy. The verbiage about the shuttle on the
NPS website seems to confuse many first-time visitors. Yes you CAN drive your
car from the east side through Zion to Springdale. During peak season, you just
can't drive your car down the scenic drive in the main canyon. You can park your
car at the Visitors Center or downtown Springdale and ride the free tourist
shuttle through the main canyon. And there are plenty of photogenic stops where
you can get out, do a short walk and catch the next shuttle. Weeping Rock,
Riverside Walk, and as you mentioned, if your nerves and legs are up for it,
Angels Landing is one of the defacto coolest hikes in the park:
http://www.citrusmilo.com/zionguide/angelslanding.cfm

For the "west side" of the park, driving up the Kolob Terrace Road is a great
experience with great views and a short not-so-popular hike, the Northgate Peaks
trail would be a fun little hike to do if you have time.
http://www.citrusmilo.com/zionguide/northgatepeaks.cfm

And a great place to catch the sunset is in the Kolob section right in the
parking lot at the end of the drive. The Finger Canyons are beautiful in the
late afternoon:
http://www.citrusmilo.com/vacation2003/joebraun_kolobpara.jpg

My only warning if you haven't done so already... make reservations now for any
accommodations in Springdale. I used to just wing it on my road trips in the
past, but Zion is so popular these days that just about every
hotel/motel/campground is full during the tourist season. -Joe

--- In Zion_National_Park_Hiking@yahoogroups.com, "gjgrosch" <jeannieg@...>
wrote:
>
> August 25-27 I was planning to visit Zion.  I will be coming from the North
Rim. Spending the night at the east end of Zion, I was planning to enter Zion on
the east side, stopping at scenic points and taking short hikes to photograph
some awesome sights.  I was then planning to spend the night about midway
through the park (Springdale) then continue on the next day to the west side of
the park.  If I am not allowed to drive my car then I cannot plan to do this as
I want.
>
> I want to hike some of the easier trails that take 2 hours or less.  I have a
spot picked out for a sunrise photo so I want to get there very early.  Sorry
that info is on my laptop.  I think it is Angel something or other.
>
> TIA
> Jeannie
>

Ahhh, protecting the natural sounds of Zion. "you can't go in the Narrows
because the flow is 122 cfs" "Can I see your permit"

And then they are going to take public comment? Why? So they can pretend that
they might listen to us? That they don't have their minds already made up?

http://hosted.ap.org/dynamic/stories/U/UT_ZION_PARK_SOUNDS_UTOL-?SITE=CODEN&SECT\
\
ION=HOME&TEMPLATE=DEFAULT

Zion NP plan aims at protecting natural sounds


ZION NATIONAL PARK, Utah (AP) -- Planners at Zion National Park are starting to
look at ways to preserve natural sounds.

It's part of an effort started several years by the National Park Service
recognizing that sounds are integral to a park's character and worthy of
protection like any other natural resource.

At Zion, officials are starting something called "soundscape management," a plan
that's intended to make sure human noise doesn't drown out the park's natural
quiet.

Zion officials plan open houses on the topic March 15 in Kanab and March 16 in
Springdale.

After that, they'll develop a plan and then take public comment.

Ram - You're smoldering in sarcasm today! ha ha :) From a noise point of view,
it's actually best to hike the Narrows during the spring runoff. With the loud
rushing water, nobody (not even spotted owls) will be disturbed by the unnatural
sounds of yelling tourists getting swept away in the rapids.

Ah sorry folks, I couldn't resist.

--- In Zion_National_Park_Hiking@yahoogroups.com, "RAM" <adkramoo@...> wrote:
>
> Ahhh, protecting the natural sounds of Zion. "you can't go in the Narrows
> because the flow is 122 cfs" "Can I see your permit"
>
> And then they are going to take public comment? Why? So they can pretend that
> they might listen to us? That they don't have their minds already made up?
>
>
http://hosted.ap.org/dynamic/stories/U/UT_ZION_PARK_SOUNDS_UTOL-?SITE=CODEN&SECT\
\
> ION=HOME&TEMPLATE=DEFAULT
>
> Zion NP plan aims at protecting natural sounds
>
>
> ZION NATIONAL PARK, Utah (AP) -- Planners at Zion National Park are starting
to
> look at ways to preserve natural sounds.
>
> It's part of an effort started several years by the National Park Service
> recognizing that sounds are integral to a park's character and worthy of
> protection like any other natural resource.
>
> At Zion, officials are starting something called "soundscape management," a
plan
> that's intended to make sure human noise doesn't drown out the park's natural
> quiet.
>
> Zion officials plan open houses on the topic March 15 in Kanab and March 16 in
> Springdale.
>
> After that, they'll develop a plan and then take public comment.
>

I can't recall any specific bug problem while in Zion.  Biting flies (deer
flies) and gnats have plagued me in other areas of Southern Utah.  My
recollection is that those experiences occurred in late May. Here in North
Carolina ticks are at their worst in late April.  I'm unaware of such an issue
in Zion.

In 30 years of Utah visits seen exactly one scorpion and that was in the Swell.

Like Joe, I've never experienced blowing sand in Zion.  But sand will get in
your shoes.  Bring protection for your feet.



--- In Zion_National_Park_Hiking@yahoogroups.com, "Joe Braun" <joe@...> wrote:
>
> Hi Michael - I have often experienced insect annoyances during the spring and
just about any other time of year. From horse flies following me down Orderville
Canyon to little gnats doing suicide runs into my eyes and ears and innocuous
bites turning into itchy bumps that last for several weeks... definitely bring
the bug dope! It's a worthy luxury.
>
> Now as for wind and sand, others may have different experiences, but I have
never really had a problem with equipment. There's not much deep sand or blowing
sand like around dunes, but then again, I've never been caught in a horrible
wind storm; I've always had calm weather for my backpacks. I use a Whisperlite
as well mostly in the Zion area and the little bugger has only needed field
maintenance once in the past few years. YMMV. -Joe
>
> --- In Zion_National_Park_Hiking@yahoogroups.com, "mcooprec" <coopermb@>
wrote:
> >
> > Hi, guys:
> >
> > My weeklong trip at the end of April is beginning to take shape and I'm
wondering about some details.
> >
> > I'm used to backpacking in very dry, sandy, windblown deserts where there
are no bugs to speak of. I'm wondering how Zion compares in practical terms.
> >
> > Specifically, am I likely to need bug dope in late April/early May up at
lower Kolob Plateau or along the Right and Left Forks? Are there mosquitos,
gnats, scorpions???
> >
> > The other backpacks I've done in deserts wreaked havoc on my backpacking
stoves. My friend and I always brought at least two for weeklong trips, because
one would invariably die before the trip was over. Sand would get in the fuel
line and no amount of field maintenance would bring it back to life. How about
in Zion? Is blowing sand likely to be a problem for my MSR Whisperlite (white
gas) stoves up at the higher elevations (Northgate, SGA, Right Fork Direct,
Terry Wash)?
> >
> > I also usually bring one of my less cherished tents along on desert trips
because the zippers take a beating from blowing sand. What about in Zion? Is
this a problem?
> >
> > Many thanks,
> > Michael
> >
>

Thanks, Joe and Jeff! I appreciate your advice.

Best,
Michael


--- In Zion_National_Park_Hiking@yahoogroups.com, "jeff" <jb838@...> wrote:
>
> I can't recall any specific bug problem while in Zion.  Biting flies (deer
flies) and gnats have plagued me in other areas of Southern Utah.  My
recollection is that those experiences occurred in late May. Here in North
Carolina ticks are at their worst in late April.  I'm unaware of such an issue
in Zion.
>
> In 30 years of Utah visits seen exactly one scorpion and that was in the
Swell.
>
> Like Joe, I've never experienced blowing sand in Zion.  But sand will get in
your shoes.  Bring protection for your feet.
>
>
>
> --- In Zion_National_Park_Hiking@yahoogroups.com, "Joe Braun" <joe@> wrote:
> >
> > Hi Michael - I have often experienced insect annoyances during the spring
and just about any other time of year. From horse flies following me down
Orderville Canyon to little gnats doing suicide runs into my eyes and ears and
innocuous bites turning into itchy bumps that last for several weeks...
definitely bring the bug dope! It's a worthy luxury.
> >
> > Now as for wind and sand, others may have different experiences, but I have
never really had a problem with equipment. There's not much deep sand or blowing
sand like around dunes, but then again, I've never been caught in a horrible
wind storm; I've always had calm weather for my backpacks. I use a Whisperlite
as well mostly in the Zion area and the little bugger has only needed field
maintenance once in the past few years. YMMV. -Joe
> >
> > --- In Zion_National_Park_Hiking@yahoogroups.com, "mcooprec" <coopermb@>
wrote:
> > >
> > > Hi, guys:
> > >
> > > My weeklong trip at the end of April is beginning to take shape and I'm
wondering about some details.
> > >
> > > I'm used to backpacking in very dry, sandy, windblown deserts where there
are no bugs to speak of. I'm wondering how Zion compares in practical terms.
> > >
> > > Specifically, am I likely to need bug dope in late April/early May up at
lower Kolob Plateau or along the Right and Left Forks? Are there mosquitos,
gnats, scorpions???
> > >
> > > The other backpacks I've done in deserts wreaked havoc on my backpacking
stoves. My friend and I always brought at least two for weeklong trips, because
one would invariably die before the trip was over. Sand would get in the fuel
line and no amount of field maintenance would bring it back to life. How about
in Zion? Is blowing sand likely to be a problem for my MSR Whisperlite (white
gas) stoves up at the higher elevations (Northgate, SGA, Right Fork Direct,
Terry Wash)?
> > >
> > > I also usually bring one of my less cherished tents along on desert trips
because the zippers take a beating from blowing sand. What about in Zion? Is
this a problem?
> > >
> > > Many thanks,
> > > Michael
> > >
> >
>

BAD Ram! SLAP! Sorry. Dripping with it I am. It was sitting there, up on a tee.
Couldn't resist! Perhaps the 2+ week trip that I leave on in 5 minutes will help
soften me edges! ;-) Yeehaw!!
Ramoo

--- In Zion_National_Park_Hiking@yahoogroups.com, "Joe Braun" <joe@...> wrote:
>
> Ram - You're smoldering in sarcasm today! ha ha :) From a noise point of view,
it's actually best to hike the Narrows during the spring runoff. With the loud
rushing water, nobody (not even spotted owls) will be disturbed by the unnatural
sounds of yelling tourists getting swept away in the rapids.
>
> Ah sorry folks, I couldn't resist.
>
> --- In Zion_National_Park_Hiking@yahoogroups.com, "RAM" <adkramoo@> wrote:
> >
> > Ahhh, protecting the natural sounds of Zion. "you can't go in the Narrows
> > because the flow is 122 cfs" "Can I see your permit"
> >
> > And then they are going to take public comment? Why? So they can pretend
that
> > they might listen to us? That they don't have their minds already made up?
> >
> >
http://hosted.ap.org/dynamic/stories/U/UT_ZION_PARK_SOUNDS_UTOL-?SITE=CODEN&SECT\
\
> > ION=HOME&TEMPLATE=DEFAULT
> >
> > Zion NP plan aims at protecting natural sounds
> >
> >
> > ZION NATIONAL PARK, Utah (AP) -- Planners at Zion National Park are starting
to
> > look at ways to preserve natural sounds.
> >
> > It's part of an effort started several years by the National Park Service
> > recognizing that sounds are integral to a park's character and worthy of
> > protection like any other natural resource.
> >
> > At Zion, officials are starting something called "soundscape management," a
plan
> > that's intended to make sure human noise doesn't drown out the park's
natural
> > quiet.
> >
> > Zion officials plan open houses on the topic March 15 in Kanab and March 16
in
> > Springdale.
> >
> > After that, they'll develop a plan and then take public comment.
> >
>

I have never had bug issues in April. But its been awhile since i was there in
April. May at the 5,000 foot Pinyon/Juniper forests is bad for no-see-ums at day
break and sunset. Biting deer flies near water in late May and June. Some kind
of nasty burrowing small thing that lkeaves puss filled welts in June too. Aside
from that, nuttin much. YMMV
Ram

--- In Zion_National_Park_Hiking@yahoogroups.com, Damian <damianbickett@...>
wrote:
>
> I've hiked the subway (left fork) in May and July, and don't remember any
> problems with bugs.  The bugs will change a bit with the terrain though - so
> the more watery kolob region may be different
>
>
>
> On Tue, Mar 9, 2010 at 8:06 AM, jeff <jb838@...> wrote:
>
> >
> >
> > I can't recall any specific bug problem while in Zion. Biting flies (deer
> > flies) and gnats have plagued me in other areas of Southern Utah. My
> > recollection is that those experiences occurred in late May. Here in North
> > Carolina ticks are at their worst in late April. I'm unaware of such an
> > issue in Zion.
> >
> > In 30 years of Utah visits seen exactly one scorpion and that was in the
> > Swell.
> >
> > Like Joe, I've never experienced blowing sand in Zion. But sand will get in
> > your shoes. Bring protection for your feet.
> >
> >
> > --- In
Zion_National_Park_Hiking@yahoogroups.com<Zion_National_Park_Hiking%40yahoogroup\
s.com>,
> > "Joe Braun" <joe@> wrote:
> > >
> > > Hi Michael - I have often experienced insect annoyances during the spring
> > and just about any other time of year. From horse flies following me down
> > Orderville Canyon to little gnats doing suicide runs into my eyes and ears
> > and innocuous bites turning into itchy bumps that last for several weeks...
> > definitely bring the bug dope! It's a worthy luxury.
> > >
> > > Now as for wind and sand, others may have different experiences, but I
> > have never really had a problem with equipment. There's not much deep sand
> > or blowing sand like around dunes, but then again, I've never been caught in
> > a horrible wind storm; I've always had calm weather for my backpacks. I use
> > a Whisperlite as well mostly in the Zion area and the little bugger has only
> > needed field maintenance once in the past few years. YMMV. -Joe
> > >
> > > --- In
Zion_National_Park_Hiking@yahoogroups.com<Zion_National_Park_Hiking%40yahoogroup\
s.com>,
> > "mcooprec" <coopermb@> wrote:
> > > >
> > > > Hi, guys:
> > > >
> > > > My weeklong trip at the end of April is beginning to take shape and I'm
> > wondering about some details.
> > > >
> > > > I'm used to backpacking in very dry, sandy, windblown deserts where
> > there are no bugs to speak of. I'm wondering how Zion compares in practical
> > terms.
> > > >
> > > > Specifically, am I likely to need bug dope in late April/early May up
> > at lower Kolob Plateau or along the Right and Left Forks? Are there
> > mosquitos, gnats, scorpions???
> > > >
> > > > The other backpacks I've done in deserts wreaked havoc on my
> > backpacking stoves. My friend and I always brought at least two for weeklong
> > trips, because one would invariably die before the trip was over. Sand would
> > get in the fuel line and no amount of field maintenance would bring it back
> > to life. How about in Zion? Is blowing sand likely to be a problem for my
> > MSR Whisperlite (white gas) stoves up at the higher elevations (Northgate,
> > SGA, Right Fork Direct, Terry Wash)?
> > > >
> > > > I also usually bring one of my less cherished tents along on desert
> > trips because the zippers take a beating from blowing sand. What about in
> > Zion? Is this a problem?
> > > >
> > > > Many thanks,
> > > > Michael
> > > >
> > >
> >
> >
> >
>
>
>
> --
> Damian Bickett
> Agricultural and Resource Econ, UCB
> (510) 761-5006
>

Speaking of GSENM (actually not sure if it is within that jurisdiction) what do
folks think about a day hike in from the Wire Pass trailhead in  July?  Of
course watching weather forecast and avoiding slots esp. in the afternoon, if
thunderstorms are about is a given.

I'm looking for places in that general area that have some shade or water for at
least part of the day.  And accessible without 4WD.

About Bull Valley Gorge.  I went back in July with a couple of friends. 
Conditions change but at that point I would call the first drop pretty dicey
without a bit of gear and even then takes work.  There were a couple of logs
hanging down tied together with pieces of webbing, dropping into a deep mud
patch with a few logs sitting on top of it.  I would not want to free climb down
that and if you didn't do the whole loop getting out would be tough.  We had a
rope and ascenders but could not figure out a good place to anchor it.  After
much thought we gave up.  Now the more adventuresome could probably do it and
others certainly had but we forewarned.  On exiting we figured the best solution
would have been to rap in off a tree on the canyon edge just after the drop, but
as we were going in/out in a few hours we did not feel like ascending all the
way back up.  So we left and just walked in the wash which is of course
beautiful.

We left by continuing east on the Skutumpah road.  That was fine but I would not
recommend attempting it going westbound from the east end in a sedan.  There is
a rather steep and exposed climb where the sand gets quite deep and plenty of
evidence of vehicles not making it and having to back down.

Thanks, guys! The flies don't bother me. But I'll probably bring some bug dope
for the no-see-ums, in case they bite.

Best,
Michael

--- In Zion_National_Park_Hiking@yahoogroups.com, "RAM" <adkramoo@...> wrote:
>
> I have never had bug issues in April. But its been awhile since i was there in
April. May at the 5,000 foot Pinyon/Juniper forests is bad for no-see-ums at day
break and sunset. Biting deer flies near water in late May and June. Some kind
of nasty burrowing small thing that lkeaves puss filled welts in June too. Aside
from that, nuttin much. YMMV
> Ram
>
> --- In Zion_National_Park_Hiking@yahoogroups.com, Damian <damianbickett@>
wrote:
> >
> > I've hiked the subway (left fork) in May and July, and don't remember any
> > problems with bugs.  The bugs will change a bit with the terrain though - so
> > the more watery kolob region may be different
> >
> >
> >
> > On Tue, Mar 9, 2010 at 8:06 AM, jeff <jb838@> wrote:
> >
> > >
> > >
> > > I can't recall any specific bug problem while in Zion. Biting flies (deer
> > > flies) and gnats have plagued me in other areas of Southern Utah. My
> > > recollection is that those experiences occurred in late May. Here in North
> > > Carolina ticks are at their worst in late April. I'm unaware of such an
> > > issue in Zion.
> > >
> > > In 30 years of Utah visits seen exactly one scorpion and that was in the
> > > Swell.
> > >
> > > Like Joe, I've never experienced blowing sand in Zion. But sand will get
in
> > > your shoes. Bring protection for your feet.
> > >
> > >
> > > --- In
Zion_National_Park_Hiking@yahoogroups.com<Zion_National_Park_Hiking%40yahoogroup\
s.com>,
> > > "Joe Braun" <joe@> wrote:
> > > >
> > > > Hi Michael - I have often experienced insect annoyances during the
spring
> > > and just about any other time of year. From horse flies following me down
> > > Orderville Canyon to little gnats doing suicide runs into my eyes and ears
> > > and innocuous bites turning into itchy bumps that last for several
weeks...
> > > definitely bring the bug dope! It's a worthy luxury.
> > > >
> > > > Now as for wind and sand, others may have different experiences, but I
> > > have never really had a problem with equipment. There's not much deep sand
> > > or blowing sand like around dunes, but then again, I've never been caught
in
> > > a horrible wind storm; I've always had calm weather for my backpacks. I
use
> > > a Whisperlite as well mostly in the Zion area and the little bugger has
only
> > > needed field maintenance once in the past few years. YMMV. -Joe
> > > >
> > > > --- In
Zion_National_Park_Hiking@yahoogroups.com<Zion_National_Park_Hiking%40yahoogroup\
s.com>,
> > > "mcooprec" <coopermb@> wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > > Hi, guys:
> > > > >
> > > > > My weeklong trip at the end of April is beginning to take shape and
I'm
> > > wondering about some details.
> > > > >
> > > > > I'm used to backpacking in very dry, sandy, windblown deserts where
> > > there are no bugs to speak of. I'm wondering how Zion compares in
practical
> > > terms.
> > > > >
> > > > > Specifically, am I likely to need bug dope in late April/early May up
> > > at lower Kolob Plateau or along the Right and Left Forks? Are there
> > > mosquitos, gnats, scorpions???
> > > > >
> > > > > The other backpacks I've done in deserts wreaked havoc on my
> > > backpacking stoves. My friend and I always brought at least two for
weeklong
> > > trips, because one would invariably die before the trip was over. Sand
would
> > > get in the fuel line and no amount of field maintenance would bring it
back
> > > to life. How about in Zion? Is blowing sand likely to be a problem for my
> > > MSR Whisperlite (white gas) stoves up at the higher elevations (Northgate,
> > > SGA, Right Fork Direct, Terry Wash)?
> > > > >
> > > > > I also usually bring one of my less cherished tents along on desert
> > > trips because the zippers take a beating from blowing sand. What about in
> > > Zion? Is this a problem?
> > > > >
> > > > > Many thanks,
> > > > > Michael
> > > > >
> > > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> >
> >
> >
> > --
> > Damian Bickett
> > Agricultural and Resource Econ, UCB
> > (510) 761-5006
> >
>

You all are making me homesick for Mt Carmel. I lived there one year and I
really like all the places to go around there. I hope to do a hike in the
Parunuweap, along the upper Kanab Creek from the Sunset Cliffs to Red Canyon and
also want to get over and up the upper paria come August/September.
Till then we are still having snow flurries down here in Flagstaff. Whats the
weather like in the other places members are from here? Hows the weather back
east Joe? What's happening down St George way Tanya? We got three inches of snow
yesterday and about 3 more so far today. Yesterdays snow melted off before this
came today.

--- In Zion_National_Park_Hiking@yahoogroups.com, "mojave_ben" <mojave_ben@...>
wrote:
>
> Speaking of GSENM (actually not sure if it is within that jurisdiction) what
do folks think about a day hike in from the Wire Pass trailhead in  July?  Of
course watching weather forecast and avoiding slots esp. in the afternoon, if
thunderstorms are about is a given.
>
> I'm looking for places in that general area that have some shade or water for
at least part of the day.  And accessible without 4WD.
>
> About Bull Valley Gorge.  I went back in July with a couple of friends. 
Conditions change but at that point I would call the first drop pretty dicey
without a bit of gear and even then takes work.  There were a couple of logs
hanging down tied together with pieces of webbing, dropping into a deep mud
patch with a few logs sitting on top of it.  I would not want to free climb down
that and if you didn't do the whole loop getting out would be tough.  We had a
rope and ascenders but could not figure out a good place to anchor it.  After
much thought we gave up.  Now the more adventuresome could probably do it and
others certainly had but we forewarned.  On exiting we figured the best solution
would have been to rap in off a tree on the canyon edge just after the drop, but
as we were going in/out in a few hours we did not feel like ascending all the
way back up.  So we left and just walked in the wash which is of course
beautiful.
>
> We left by continuing east on the Skutumpah road.  That was fine but I would
not recommend attempting it going westbound from the east end in a sedan.  There
is a rather steep and exposed climb where the sand gets quite deep and plenty of
evidence of vehicles not making it and having to back down.
>

I will be hiking Zion for the first time on the 3/21 weekend. Trails we are
considering include Angel's Landing, Zion Narrows Day Hike, Observation Point,
and West Rim Trail. Will any of these trails not provide me with opportunities
to use my Sweetwater water filter successfully for drinking water?

Hit 73 degrees Fahrenheit here in Wake Forest NC this afternoon.  High for the
year.  Last year first daffodil bloom observed in the backyard on Feb 27.  Still
awaiting this year's first bloom. Maybe tomorrow.

--- In Zion_National_Park_Hiking@yahoogroups.com, "GcP" <garyclaytonpalmer@...>
wrote:
>
>
> Till then we are still having snow flurries down here in Flagstaff. Whats the
weather like in the other places members are from here? Hows the weather back
east Joe? What's happening down St George way Tanya? We got three inches of snow
yesterday and about 3 more so far today. Yesterdays snow melted off before this
came today.
>