--- In albanach@yahoogroups.com, "Pixie Rose" <pixierosedragon@...> wrote:
>
> By domestic, do you mean Aer Lingus? I am going to Ireland in
October and we
> are flying Aer Lingus out of Orlando, FL. I live in Miami, so the
location
> is everything. What type of problems did you encounter?

No, by domestic, I meant US Airlines. We had problems with US Airways
and Delta going and coming back. It was just not fun.
> By sister and niece applied for their passports over two months ago.
We hope
> to have them back before October, lol. Fortunately, I have mine from the
> last time I was in Ireland in 2005.
>
> Cheers!

Good luck with your trip, I'm sure you will have a great time & I hope
everyone gets their passports in time!

Margaret Hepburn

For those who have a subscription & might be interested in this sort
of thing, I have an article in the new TI about a Scottish Betrothal
(that sound you hear is me blowing my own horn, grin).
Margaret Hepburn

Very funny brief youtube clip
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Nmy6OaZEAhE

Much funnier if you've ever seen the Maori dance the NZ teams does
before matches....

Margaret Hepburn

I am having difficulty finding information on the kertch, particularly in
our period.  Here are the few images I have found, two are from the 1700s
and the third is a reinactor's interpretation.

http://www.marariley.net/celtic/images/henwife.jpg - "The Hen Wife" by
Richard Waitt (1706)  In this image, the lady looks like she's wearing a
tighter headress underneath a diagonally rolled up square of cloth.  There
appears to be a pin on the top of the head.  I can't see how the roll would
stay rolled, though.

http://www.marariley.net/celtic/images/household.jpg - Detail from David
Allan's "Scottish Highland Family", probably from the late 1700s.  In this
painting, there is again a tighter headress underneath, and the top
headpiece is again rolled up, but not diagonally, and is of a colored
fabric.

http://images.google.ca/imgres?imgurl=http://www.mistythicket.com/graphics/thumb\
mkerch.jpg&imgrefurl=http://www.mistythicket.com/accessories.html&h=100&w=75&sz=\
21&hl=en&start=1&tbnid=syUVWovwAqssJM:&tbnh=82&tbnw=62&prev=/images%3Fq%3Dscotti\
sh%2Bkertch%26gbv%3D2%26svnum%3D10%26hl%3Den%26sa%3DG -
These reinactors roll the ends of the headress up around their heads.  It
looks lovely, but I can't find any images or information to back up this
method of wearing a kertch.

I would really like to understand this garment and how it should be properly
prepared and worn.  If anyone has information, please share!

Thanks,
Doireann Dechti

Sorry, a shorter and more direct link for the third image is
http://www.mistythicket.com/accessories/caps/kertch.html.

Doireann

Full title: "The True Life of Mary Stuart, Queen of Scots"

Amazon link:
http://www.amazon.com/Queen-Scots-True-Life-Stuart/dp/0618619178/

Just wondered what the knowledgeable folx here thought of it :-).

YiS,
Baintighearna Muirghein Dhaire Faoilciarach  /|\
Dreiburgen Web Minister     http://www.dreiburgen.org
(any posts to e-mail lists do not reflect official
   opinions unless specifically stated otherwise)

At 11:54 AM -0700 8/20/07, Muirghein wrote:
>Full title: "The True Life of Mary Stuart, Queen of Scots"
>
>Amazon link:
>http://www.amazon.com/Queen-Scots-True-Life-Stuart/dp/0618619178/
>
>Just wondered what the knowledgeable folx here thought of it :-).

I don't know. Reviews in the popular press made me rather suspicious,
even though the author is a real academic. However, without having
read it myself or seen academic reviews (especially academic reviews
by Scottish historians --that is, historians who specialize in
Scotland, as opposed to historians who happen to be from Scotland) I
really can't judge.

Sharon
--
Sharon Krossa, PhD  -  skrossa-yg@...
Resources for Scottish history, names, clothing, language & more:
     Medieval Scotland - http://MedievalScotland.org/
      Shopping Online? Help support! - http://MedievalScotland.org/patron/
The most complete index of reliable web articles about pre-1600 names:
     The Medieval Names Archive - http://www.s-gabriel.org/names/

A gentleman from a nearby shire has asked help with the following.

> Mathgamhain writes:
> I address this to any of you who have experience in written and\or spoken
> Goidelic-Gaelic, preferably the Erse based dialect.
>
>  I'm working on some variations for a house name pronounced in Erse
> Gaelic.
> The root word I'm researching is actually "raven".
> I have come across a number of references to the name "Bran" meaning raven
> ,
> but I have found variations that are either different words meaning the
> same
> thing ("fitheach" has also been suggested as a word for raven) or words
> that
> refer to birds that resemble ravens, but aren't exactly the same (a rook
> has
> a different word for it to raven despite the similarity, crow as well).
> Can
> anyone point me in the right direction?

He adds, in a later email:
The name we're actually trying to translate basically means Ravenswood
warband. Those of us creating this little mercenary group live in the same
area of Hartwood, which just happens to border off of a raven nesting
ground..the name just stuck when we couldn't come up with a better one,
hence the translation) The best I have come up with so far is "Ros na Bran
na Ceitherne". I have no idea if I have used the correct words or the
correct sentence structure, but this is what I developed from my research,
but I'd like a more informed opinion.
***************

Any help from those more knowledgeable would really be appreciated.

Yours In Service,
Doireann

In modern Scottish Gaelic, it would be

coille-fhithich

Phonetically it would be (roughly) cull-yuh ee-ich.  The"ich" pronunced as it
would be in German.

Coille; wood is a feminine word and lenites fitheach and then the "fh" goes
silent.  The "th" in the middle of fiteach is silend any way.  The possesive
case changes the ending of fitheach to the "ich".  Thus you get
coille-fhithich, wood of a raven or wood of ravens.

This is modern Scottish Gaelic and Sharon may well have much better advice for
your period.

Beannachd leibh,
Shel



Quoting Nancy Carr Zupanic <bear_necessities@...>:

> A gentleman from a nearby shire has asked help with the following.
>
> > Mathgamhain writes:
> > I address this to any of you who have experience in written and\or spoken
> > Goidelic-Gaelic, preferably the Erse based dialect.
> >
> >  I'm working on some variations for a house name pronounced in Erse
> > Gaelic.
> > The root word I'm researching is actually "raven".
> > I have come across a number of references to the name "Bran" meaning raven
> > ,
> > but I have found variations that are either different words meaning the
> > same
> > thing ("fitheach" has also been suggested as a word for raven) or words
> > that
> > refer to birds that resemble ravens, but aren't exactly the same (a rook
> > has
> > a different word for it to raven despite the similarity, crow as well).
> > Can
> > anyone point me in the right direction?
>
> He adds, in a later email:
> The name we're actually trying to translate basically means Ravenswood
> warband. Those of us creating this little mercenary group live in the same
> area of Hartwood, which just happens to border off of a raven nesting
> ground..the name just stuck when we couldn't come up with a better one,
> hence the translation) The best I have come up with so far is "Ros na Bran
> na Ceitherne". I have no idea if I have used the correct words or the
> correct sentence structure, but this is what I developed from my research,
> but I'd like a more informed opinion.
> ***************
>
> Any help from those more knowledgeable would really be appreciated.
>
> Yours In Service,
> Doireann
>
>
>


Shel

At 9:04 PM -0700 8/21/07, Nancy Carr Zupanic wrote:
>A gentleman from a nearby shire has asked help with the following.
>
>  > Mathgamhain writes:
...
>He adds, in a later email:
>The name we're actually trying to translate basically means Ravenswood
>warband. Those of us creating this little mercenary group live in the same
>area of Hartwood, which just happens to border off of a raven nesting
>ground..the name just stuck when we couldn't come up with a better one,
>hence the translation) The best I have come up with so far is "Ros na Bran
>na Ceitherne". I have no idea if I have used the correct words or the
>correct sentence structure, but this is what I developed from my research,
>but I'd like a more informed opinion.
>***************
>
>Any help from those more knowledgeable would really be appreciated.

Unfortunately, there isn't much help I can give, since I have no
evidence of Gaelic organized groups of people having names that would
mean "ravenswood warband".

I recommend pointing him at my article "Medieval Gaelic Clan,
Household, and Other Group Names" at
       http://medievalscotland.org/scotnames/households.shtml

I haven't yet gotten to including <ceithern> ('kern', a collective
noun) in the article, but I expect it probably follows the same
pattern as household names (that is, those used with luchd taighe and
teaglach).

Sharon, ska Effrick neyn Ken3ocht
--
Sharon Krossa, PhD  -  skrossa-yg@...
Resources for Scottish history, names, clothing, language & more:
     Medieval Scotland - http://MedievalScotland.org/
      Shopping Online? Help support! - http://MedievalScotland.org/patron/
The most complete index of reliable web articles about pre-1600 names:
     The Medieval Names Archive - http://www.s-gabriel.org/names/

Erse to me always implies Irish...but this is the albanach list after
all so my suggestions are also from scots-gaelic.

> The name we're actually trying to translate basically means
> Ravenswood warband.

For "warband" the best translation could be 'sluagh'/"host, multitude,
people" in old irish 'sluag' also meant "army". Or one could use
'arm'/"army" (the motto of the macQuarries is, for example, 'An t-arm
breac dearg or "the red tartaned or blood speckled army" or the army of
red trout...(sorry, bad pun?)).

So, Sluagh Coille-fhithich. Or An t-Arm Coille-fhithich.

Nach eil sin ceart?

-Cainnech ruad mcGuairi

--- Shelton Browder <ebrowder@...> wrote:

> In modern Scottish Gaelic, it would be
>
> coille-fhithich
>
> Phonetically it would be (roughly) cull-yuh ee-ich.  The"ich"
> pronunced as it
> would be in German.
>
> Coille; wood is a feminine word and lenites fitheach and then the
> "fh" goes
> silent.  The "th" in the middle of fiteach is silend any way.  The
> possesive
> case changes the ending of fitheach to the "ich".  Thus you get
> coille-fhithich, wood of a raven or wood of ravens.
>
> This is modern Scottish Gaelic and Sharon may well have much better
> advice for
> your period.
>
> Beannachd leibh,
> Shel
>
>
>
> Quoting Nancy Carr Zupanic <bear_necessities@...>:




________________________________________________________________________________\
____
Be a better Heartthrob. Get better relationship answers from someone who knows.
Yahoo! Answers - Check it out.
http://answers.yahoo.com/dir/?link=list&sid=396545433

Hi everyone,

I thought some of you might be interested in this proposed centre in the
Highlands. The article appeared in today's Scotsman.

http://heritage.scotsman.com/traditions.cfm?id=1330212007

Cindy

--
Cindy Vallar
Author, Freelance Editor, Book Reviewer, Workshop Presenter, Piracy
Historian
E-mail: cindy@... or cindyv@...
Web site: http://www.cindyvallar.com

The Scottish Thistle
Highland warrior weds woman of outlawed clan. Past secrets, witchery,
and civil war endanger their lives. Pits honor and duty against trust
and love.
Read an Excerpt: http://www.cindyvallar.com/scottishthistle.html

Shel, you seem to really know your stuff!  Maybe you can help me, as well?

I am looking for a Scottish Gaelic translation for "more period is more
better"...

Yes, I realize that is fractured English; is there a chance of translating
it into fractured Gaelic?  Pronunciation help would be needed, as well. :-)

I visited Scotland this past July, and was very excited to see
Gaelic/English signs all over the Highlands!  I meant to ask for help while
there, but was overwhelmed by the beauty of the land and, honestly, forgot
about it.

Beathog nic Dhonnchaidh

   -----Original Message-----
   From: albanach@yahoogroups.com [mailto:albanach@yahoogroups.com]On Behalf
Of Shelton Browder
   Sent: Wednesday, August 22, 2007 3:04 AM
   To: albanach@yahoogroups.com
   Subject: Re: [albanach] Help with Gaelic


   In modern Scottish Gaelic, it would be

   coille-fhithich

   Phonetically it would be (roughly) cull-yuh ee-ich. The"ich" pronunced as
it
   would be in German.

   Coille; wood is a feminine word and lenites fitheach and then the "fh"
goes
   silent. The "th" in the middle of fiteach is silend any way. The possesive
   case changes the ending of fitheach to the "ich". Thus you get
   coille-fhithich, wood of a raven or wood of ravens.

   This is modern Scottish Gaelic and Sharon may well have much better advice
for
   your period.

   Beannachd leibh,
   Shel
   .



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Hallo a Bheathog,

Thanks for the compliment but I'm just a learner and not truly fluent yet.
Sharon is the best source.

"More period is more better" is a very idiomatic and modern  English way of
expressing that notion, so anyone with an idea should jump in here--please.
That said, one possibility is  "'S ann nas fheàrr a bhith fìor ceart 'sa
linn."

Sounds very flat and rather formal when directly translated into English.  "It's
best to be truly correct in the era." , but has a pleasant enough sound in
Gaelic. Some such would be fun on a tee-shirt.

Sharon---help!!

Beannachd leibh,
Shel

Quoting SCABeathog <SCAbeathog@...>:

> Shel, you seem to really know your stuff!  Maybe you can help me, as well?
>
> I am looking for a Scottish Gaelic translation for "more period is more
> better"...
>
> Yes, I realize that is fractured English; is there a chance of translating
> it into fractured Gaelic?  Pronunciation help would be needed, as well. :-)
>
> I visited Scotland this past July, and was very excited to see
> Gaelic/English signs all over the Highlands!  I meant to ask for help while
> there, but was overwhelmed by the beauty of the land and, honestly, forgot
> about it.
>
> Beathog nic Dhonnchaidh
>
>   -----Original Message-----
>   From: albanach@yahoogroups.com [mailto:albanach@yahoogroups.com]On Behalf
> Of Shelton Browder
>   Sent: Wednesday, August 22, 2007 3:04 AM
>   To: albanach@yahoogroups.com
>   Subject: Re: [albanach] Help with Gaelic
>
>
>   In modern Scottish Gaelic, it would be
>
>   coille-fhithich
>
>   Phonetically it would be (roughly) cull-yuh ee-ich. The"ich" pronunced as
> it
>   would be in German.
>
>   Coille; wood is a feminine word and lenites fitheach and then the "fh"
> goes
>   silent. The "th" in the middle of fiteach is silend any way. The possesive
>   case changes the ending of fitheach to the "ich". Thus you get
>   coille-fhithich, wood of a raven or wood of ravens.
>
>   This is modern Scottish Gaelic and Sharon may well have much better advice
> for
>   your period.
>
>   Beannachd leibh,
>   Shel
>   .
>
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>


Shel

Thanks so much!  I really like your expression of my sentiment.  As far as
it having a pleasant sound in Gaelic, I'll have to take your word for that
(unless you can provide me with a phonetic pronunciation as well). :-)

I would love to be able to learn to speak Gaelic.  I have tried several
times to use a few online sources, but, it's not the same as face-to-face,
is it?

Beathog

  -----Original Message-----
From: albanach@yahoogroups.com [mailto:albanach@yahoogroups.com]On Behalf Of
Shelton Browder
Sent: Thursday, August 23, 2007 5:17 AM
To: albanach@yahoogroups.com
Subject: RE: [albanach] Help with Gaelic


   Hallo a Bheathog,

   Thanks for the compliment but I'm just a learner and not truly fluent yet.
   Sharon is the best source.

   "More period is more better" is a very idiomatic and modern English way of
   expressing that notion, so anyone with an idea should jump in
here--please.
   That said, one possibility is "'S ann nas fheàrr a bhith fìor ceart 'sa
   linn."

   Sounds very flat and rather formal when directly translated into English.
"It's
   best to be truly correct in the era." , but has a pleasant enough sound in
   Gaelic. Some such would be fun on a tee-shirt.

   Sharon---help!!

   Beannachd leibh,
   Shel

   Quoting SCABeathog <SCAbeathog@...>:

   > Shel, you seem to really know your stuff! Maybe you can help me, as
well?
   >
   > I am looking for a Scottish Gaelic translation for "more period is more
   > better"...
   >
   > Yes, I realize that is fractured English; is there a chance of
translating
   > it into fractured Gaelic? Pronunciation help would be needed, as well.
:-)
   >
   > I visited Scotland this past July, and was very excited to see
   > Gaelic/English signs all over the Highlands! I meant to ask for help
while
   > there, but was overwhelmed by the beauty of the land and, honestly,
forgot
   > about it.
   >
   > Beathog nic Dhonnchaidh
   .



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

I am attempting to create my own device and am looking for the
Gaelic/Irish version of fortune or good fortune, as my device includes
a sea-horse, which I know is the heraldic representation of good luck
or fortune in a voyage. My persona is a sea merchant. I have looked
online, but am stymied, as there does not seem to be any direct
translation of the word fortune. Can anyone assist me with this
verbiage? Thanks in advance,

Rowen of SouthKeep
Shire Hospitaller
Trimaris
Bo'sun on the Midnight Rose

--- In albanach@yahoogroups.com, Shelton Browder <ebrowder@...> wrote:
>
> In modern Scottish Gaelic, it would be
>
> coille-fhithich
>
> Phonetically it would be (roughly) cull-yuh ee-ich.  The"ich"
pronunced as it
> would be in German.
>
> Coille; wood is a feminine word and lenites fitheach and then the
"fh" goes
> silent.  The "th" in the middle of fiteach is silend any way.  The
possesive
> case changes the ending of fitheach to the "ich".  Thus you get
> coille-fhithich, wood of a raven or wood of ravens.
>
> This is modern Scottish Gaelic and Sharon may well have much better
advice for
> your period.
>
> Beannachd leibh,
> Shel
>
>
>

--- In albanach@yahoogroups.com, "Nancy Carr Zupanic"
<bear_necessities@...> wrote:
>
> I am having difficulty finding information on the kertch,
particularly in
> our period.  Here are the few images I have found, two are from the
1700s
> and the third is a reinactor's interpretation.
>>snippage<<<<<
> These reinactors roll the ends of the headress up around their
heads.  It
> looks lovely, but I can't find any images or information to back up
this
> method of wearing a kertch.
>
> I would really like to understand this garment and how it should be
properly
> prepared and worn.  If anyone has information, please share!
> Thanks,
> Doireann Dechti

I finally found some time to look some of these up. I've seen the
kertch business mentioned before on various internet sites and I've
never really tried to run it to ground before. One reenactment site
quotes J. Telfer Dunbar's Scottish Costume & History of Highland
dress, but I don't have those to hand to check the source.

The whole business about the 3 corners to represent the Holy Trinity
appear to stem from Alexander Carmichael's Carmina Gadelica, which was
an Edwardian publication which has since rec'd a lot of criticism. I
believe the kertch in the way you are meaning it and what you are
looking for confirmation of is out of SCA period - you said yourself
these pics are from the 1700's and I think that's where you would find
it - not earlier. A quick search through the dictionary of the
Scottish language doesn't yield much - just that kertch is from
kerchief, which is just a generic term for a covering  - not just for
the head....

Women in general should be covering their hair and the few Scottish
portraits there are of women show them with standard headcoverings of
the period. If you are looking specifically for plain linen
headcoverings, I can direct you to a few sites - but they are not
going to be Scottish because regrettably, there's just not a lot of
info and to my knowledge, the depiction you want doesn't exist -
again, at least in the SCA time period. The 16th century Dutch market
paintings show a lot of women in various linen headcoverings and are a
  good place to start. Linens were fairly generic and I think there is
a lot of homogenity to them throughout Western Europe. Now, please
understand, that is a vast generality.....

Toujours a vos ordres,
Margaret Hepburn

Thank you so kindly to all of you who replied to this problem.  I am
forwarding all replies to the gentleman in question in hopes that he will
decide on a more period name.

Thank you!

Doireann

Margaret wrote:
I finally found some time to look some of these up.
<snip>
Women in general should be covering their hair and the few Scottish
portraits there are of women show them with standard headcoverings of
the period. If you are looking specifically for plain linen
headcoverings, I can direct you to a few sites - but they are not
going to be Scottish because regrettably, there's just not a lot of
info and to my knowledge, the depiction you want doesn't exist -
<snip>
Linens were fairly generic and I think there is
a lot of homogenity to them throughout Western Europe. Now, please
understand, that is a vast generality.....
*********

Thank you very much for your reply!  I would really appreciate links to
these websites.  I don't see this as bad news - I did a kertch up the way it
was in the 1700s paintings.  It looked just like the photo, so I'm confident
that I did it right.  But it is such a bizarre and unpleasant look that I
would not be able to wear it without feeling very self-concious.

Doireann

--- In albanach@yahoogroups.com, "Nancy Carr Zupanic"
<bear_necessities@...> wrote:

> Thank you very much for your reply!  I would really appreciate links to
> these websites.  I don't see this as bad news - I did a kertch up
the way it
> was in the 1700s paintings.  It looked just like the photo, so I'm
confident
> that I did it right.  But it is such a bizarre and unpleasant look
that I
> would not be able to wear it without feeling very self-concious.
>
> Doireann

If you'll give me a little bit, I'll put together some links for you -
as a starter, if you go to the Web Gallery of art and look up the two
artists Aertsen and Beuckelaar (I think I spelled that 2nd one right),
it will give you the market scenes I was talking about.

Here's a link to a nice how to page on making & wearing a Flemish
kerchief....

http://www.heatherspages.net/flemish_kerchief.htm

Margaret Hepburn

Greetings

I have a question, during the middle ages the clans travel back and
forth and all around what is now Ireland and Scotland (and all the
islands in the channel).  So at what time and place was it determined
there was a difference between Irish and Scotish Celtic?

Thanks
Kenna

At 11:32 PM +0000 8/26/07, Keina MacGhriogair wrote:
>I have a question, during the middle ages the clans travel back and
>forth and all around what is now Ireland and Scotland (and all the
>islands in the channel).  So at what time and place was it determined
>there was a difference between Irish and Scotish Celtic?

First, note that "Celtic" is a language family, not a language --
"Celtic" is on a par with "Germanic" or "Romance", not any specific
language within those language families. See my article "Celtic Rant"
at <http://medievalscotland.org/postings/celticrant.shtml> for more
discussion.

Anyway, you seem to be using "Celtic" here to mean specifically
Gaelic and not any of the other languages in the Celtic language
family (which include Welsh, Cornish, Breton, Celt-Iberian, Gaulish,
and probably Pictish -- two of which, Welsh/Cumbric and Pictish, were
spoken in medieval Scotland in addition to Gaelic and so are just as
"Scottish Celtic" as Scottish Gaelic).

You're right that there was a lot of interaction between Gaelic
Scotland and Gaelic Ireland, with people moving back and forth (more
commonly individuals and families than clans, however), even though
politically the two were separate from fairly early on in the Middle
Ages. (This is similar to how there was a lot of interaction and
movement of people between Scotland and England even though they were
politically separate.)

Linguistically, despite the political divisions, both Irish and
Scottish Gaels (and Manx) considered themselves to all speak the same
language into the 17th century, and share a common literary heritage,
and modern linguists largely agree that the different kinds of Gaelic
were dialects of the same language (Gaelic) until around 1700 when
Irish (Gaelic) and Scottish Gaelic are considered to have become
different languages.

That said, the difference between being two dialects of a the same
language and being two different languages is not a precise, entirely
linguistically determined categorization -- when two languages are
closely related the difference usually comes down to political and
social considerations as much as linguistic ones. In the case of
Gaelic, the main thing that changed around 1700 was the written
language changed to reflect the national dialects more, instead of
the ideal for written Irish and Scottish Gaelic being exactly the
same, and that added to nearly a millennium of political separation
(and a few other considerations) tipped the scales in favor of two
separate languages instead of dialects of the same language. Then,
when Irish underwent major spelling reform in the 20th century, the
differences between written Irish and Scottish Gaelic became even
more pronounced (and it became much more difficult for Irish and
Scottish Gaels to read the others writing).

However, if we leave written forms aside, orally/aurally it is
probably more accurate to speak of a dialect continuum from the south
of Ireland to the northern-most Western Isles, with dialects being
more similar to their closer geographic neighbors than more
geographically distant dialects, even if the closer neighbor is from
the other language and the more geographically distant dialect from
the same language. So, speakers of the southern-most dialect of
Scottish Gaelic will have an easier time understanding speakers of
the northern-most dialect of Irish Gaelic than the northern-most
dialect of Scottish Gaelic (because geographically and linguistically
the former will be closer to their own dialect than the latter, even
though the former is considered a different language and the latter
the same language as their own).

For a basic timeline of Gaelic in Scotland, as well as resources for
historical and modern Gaelic, see
<http://medievalscotland.org/scotbiblio/languages.shtml#gaelic>

Let me know if anything I've said isn't clear!

Sharon
--
Sharon Krossa, PhD  -  skrossa-yg@...
Resources for Scottish history, names, clothing, language & more:
     Medieval Scotland - http://MedievalScotland.org/
      Shopping Online? Help support! - http://MedievalScotland.org/patron/
The most complete index of reliable web articles about pre-1600 names:
     The Medieval Names Archive - http://www.s-gabriel.org/names/

Thank you for your explanation, it does help, and my appologize for
saying Celtic when you are correct I meant Gaelic.

Another question, keeping in mind your information stated that the
upper part of Ireland dilect and the southern part of Scotland being
similar.  I have been researching the spelling of Ghriogair, I was
told this is Scotish Gaelic, but I have also been told no that is
Irish Gaelic, I suppose it may depend if you are asking a Scot's or
and Irishman?  Sorry a little silly and a dash of frustration!

Keina

> First, note that "Celtic" is a language family, not a language --
> "Celtic" is on a par with "Germanic" or "Romance", not any specific
> language within those language families. See my article "Celtic
Rant"
> at <http://medievalscotland.org/postings/celticrant.shtml> for more
> discussion.
>
> Anyway, you seem to be using "Celtic" here to mean specifically
> Gaelic and not any of the other languages in the Celtic language
> family (which include Welsh, Cornish, Breton, Celt-Iberian,
Gaulish,
> and probably Pictish -- two of which, Welsh/Cumbric and Pictish,
were
> spoken in medieval Scotland in addition to Gaelic and so are just
as
> "Scottish Celtic" as Scottish Gaelic).
>
> You're right that there was a lot of interaction between Gaelic
> Scotland and Gaelic Ireland, with people moving back and forth
(more
> commonly individuals and families than clans, however), even though
> politically the two were separate from fairly early on in the
Middle
> Ages. (This is similar to how there was a lot of interaction and
> movement of people between Scotland and England even though they
were
> politically separate.)
>
> Linguistically, despite the political divisions, both Irish and
> Scottish Gaels (and Manx) considered themselves to all speak the
same
> language into the 17th century, and share a common literary
heritage,
> and modern linguists largely agree that the different kinds of
Gaelic
> were dialects of the same language (Gaelic) until around 1700 when
> Irish (Gaelic) and Scottish Gaelic are considered to have become
> different languages.
>
> That said, the difference between being two dialects of a the same
> language and being two different languages is not a precise,
entirely
> linguistically determined categorization -- when two languages are
> closely related the difference usually comes down to political and
> social considerations as much as linguistic ones. In the case of
> Gaelic, the main thing that changed around 1700 was the written
> language changed to reflect the national dialects more, instead of
> the ideal for written Irish and Scottish Gaelic being exactly the
> same, and that added to nearly a millennium of political separation
> (and a few other considerations) tipped the scales in favor of two
> separate languages instead of dialects of the same language. Then,
> when Irish underwent major spelling reform in the 20th century, the
> differences between written Irish and Scottish Gaelic became even
> more pronounced (and it became much more difficult for Irish and
> Scottish Gaels to read the others writing).
>
> However, if we leave written forms aside, orally/aurally it is
> probably more accurate to speak of a dialect continuum from the
south
> of Ireland to the northern-most Western Isles, with dialects being
> more similar to their closer geographic neighbors than more
> geographically distant dialects, even if the closer neighbor is
from
> the other language and the more geographically distant dialect from
> the same language. So, speakers of the southern-most dialect of
> Scottish Gaelic will have an easier time understanding speakers of
> the northern-most dialect of Irish Gaelic than the northern-most
> dialect of Scottish Gaelic (because geographically and
linguistically
> the former will be closer to their own dialect than the latter,
even
> though the former is considered a different language and the latter
> the same language as their own).
>
> For a basic timeline of Gaelic in Scotland, as well as resources
for
> historical and modern Gaelic, see
> <http://medievalscotland.org/scotbiblio/languages.shtml#gaelic>
>
> Let me know if anything I've said isn't clear!
>
> Sharon
> --
> Sharon Krossa, PhD  -  skrossa-yg@...
> Resources for Scottish history, names, clothing, language & more:
>     Medieval Scotland - http://MedievalScotland.org/
>      Shopping Online? Help support! -
http://MedievalScotland.org/patron/
> The most complete index of reliable web articles about pre-1600
names:
>     The Medieval Names Archive - http://www.s-gabriel.org/names/
>

Greetings.  I have read so many sites quoting one thing or another
that I think I've generally confused myself. lol  Some sites I have
come across state that the arisaid came at the end, but still during,
the 16th c.  while others state that it didn't come about until the
17th. The same goes for the ringed brooch and the penannular brooch,
I'm getting widely different time frames.  Some telling me that
penannular brooches is what they fastened arisaid's with, while others
state that penannular brooches were to early and that they in fact
used ringed brooches.  And not to mention the kertch, ack!

Now I am exceptionally new to the SCA (haven't even participated in an
event as of yet) but I am doing as much research as possible because I
want to create as authentic persona and clothing as I can.  I have
looked at several Scottish reenactor's and renn sites hoping for
examples of types of clothing, but it seems to me that alot of what
they are claiming was definately worn during the 16th C, was in fact
later or is a common misconseption.  My point in this plee for help is
can anyone more learned than I tell me if they know when these
previously listed things came about or any ideas for general garbing
concerning an outfit?  I'm pretty open to specific time frame as long
as it falls before the 17th, however I really would like to wear an
arisaid and be somewhere highland.  As far as social standing what I'm
aiming for is more of a country/farming character, having land, so
definately not nobility but not a beggar type either.

Sorry for the lenghthy post but I'm running in circles and confused
myself. lol  I sincerely hope I don't annoy anyone w/ what may be an
idiotic question to some but thank you for any potential help, it
would be much appreciated.

Michelle (no persona name as of yet)

I was curious of the time period clan motto's came about? Since I've
only found them documented in English, were they not in Gaelic because
they were around in a much later time period?
Thanks.

Victoria

I can't answer the question of date, but I can verify that present day clan
mottos are in English, Scots, Gaelic, Latin, and French.
~Matt


On 9/9/07, paperbackwriter1558 <paperbackwriter1558@...> wrote:
>
>   I was curious of the time period clan motto's came about? Since I've
> only found them documented in English, were they not in Gaelic because
> they were around in a much later time period?
> Thanks.
>
> Victoria
>
>
>



--
Matthew A. C. Newsome, FSA Scot
Curator of the Scottish Tartans Museum
Member of the Guild of Tartan Scholars
Homepage: http://www.albanach.org


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Thanks, Matt.
The ones I'm looking for (MacGillivray and Menzies)and the websites
that are related, seem to only have them in English. My thinking was
they would originally be of another origin depending on the dates. Any
other resources you can think of besides official clan websites?

Victoria

Greetings

   You might try an inquiry to the Scots heraldic authority - it's possible
someone in Lord Lyon's office might know, or at least be able to direct you
further. Try them at...

   http://www.lyon-court.com/lordlyon/CCC_FirstPage.jsp

   Nigel

paperbackwriter1558 <paperbackwriter1558@...> wrote:
           I was curious of the time period clan motto's came about? Since I've
only found them documented in English, were they not in Gaelic because
they were around in a much later time period?
Thanks.

Victoria






Three things never heard from the mouth of a Celt:
	 "Do these colors match?"
	 "Is this too much jewelry?"
	 "Is that my drink?"

http://web.raex.com/~obsidian/index.html

---------------------------------
Got a little couch potato?
Check out fun summer activities for kids.

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Greetings,

   I am posting this to the SCA Pictish Yahoo group also, so if you belong to
both as I do, please be aware they are duplicate messages!

   I apologize if any of my queries have already been answered in any posts or
links -- I can only read through a dozen or so posts at a time -- so if you know
the number of a post that answers any of my questions, please feel free to reply
with that.  Anything that might help is gratefully appreciated.

   My persona is still in development, but what I know about her so far is she is
of Dal Riada and Pictish descent (one parent of each) and her lifetime was
600-800 A.D.

   Onto the questions!

   1)  I have several names I am considering for my SCA name.  However, I am very
unsure about how to pronounce any of them and I wouldn't want to finalize on one
'sound unheard.'  Unfortunately, I have not been able to locate a local Gaelic
speaker, so I am hoping there is a Subject Matter Expert in the groups who might
be inclined to help me out.  Yes, I know the modern language sounds different
than that of 1300 years ago, but at this point, I don't really care.

   My choices are, in no particular order:  (any letters that have that little
'hash' mark over it I enclosed in <> pointy brackets. :D)

   S<i>thmaith
   Aedammair
   Samhdainne or Samthann
   Sebhdann or Sebdann
   D<u>insech
   Sinech
   S<e>tach
   S<a>erlaith

   2)  My next question is in regards to suitability of a name with the SCA.  All
of these names I found in Index of Names in Irish Annals: Feminine Given Names
(listed alphabetically) from the Academy of Saint Gabriel website. I am hoping
that the sourcing  will pass scrutiny with no problems.  What I am wondering
about is time frame -- not all of the names were referenced in the Irish Annals
during my persona's time period.  Some were earlier, some were later.  Will an
'out of period' name be much harder to pass and why so?  I can't help but think
that because female names had such a lower proportion of official notation, then
why shouldn't there be some leeway in the process.  Just think if registering a
name of a American Revolutionary War female persona was limited to names of the
spouses of the Declaration of Independence signers only because they are the
only women mentioned in authorized sourcing documents.

   3)  Pronunciation of the patrynomic.  Same as above :-)

   Cinaedh
   Daimhin
   Cennfaelad
   Aibhist<i>n

   4)  Sourcing for Cennfaelad and Aibhist<i>n is from The Celts, by Peter
Beresford Ellis.  Each is mentioned in the book with an anecdote that mentions a
date (A.D 637 and 655 respectively).  Would that mention in a book by Ellis be
satisfactory for a source?  Or do I need more?

   Okay that is enough of the questions for now.  I look forward to your replies.

   Sue V.
   Shire of Wyewood
   An Tir




---------------------------------
Boardwalk for $500? In 2007? Ha!
Play Monopoly Here and Now (it's updated for today's economy) at Yahoo! Games.

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Just adressing one bit of this:

At 12:44 AM 10/1/2007, you wrote:
<snip>
>   2)  My next question is in regards to suitability of a name with
> the SCA.  All of these names I found in Index of Names in Irish
> Annals: Feminine Given Names (listed alphabetically) from the
> Academy of Saint Gabriel website. I am hoping that the
> sourcing  will pass scrutiny with no problems.  What I am wondering
> about is time frame -- not all of the names were referenced in the
> Irish Annals during my persona's time period.  Some were earlier,
> some were later.  Will an 'out of period' name be much harder to
> pass and why so?  I can't help but think that because female names
> had such a lower proportion of official notation, then why
> shouldn't there be some leeway in the process.  Just think if
> registering a name of a American Revolutionary War female persona
> was limited to names of the spouses of the Declaration of
> Independence signers only because they are the only women mentioned
> in authorized sourcing documents.

St. G is an excellent source :-). Just check with your local heralds
for what you need to print out to attach to the submission.

As for dates, the only rule is that the name be internally
consistent, culturally and temporally (IIRC all bits within 100-ish
years of each other, but I'm not sure). It doesn't have to match your
persona, at all, to be registerable. My persona is an early 14th c.
Highland woman, but if I wanted to register a male Italian Ren name I
could (assuming it was a registerable Italian Ren name, of course
^_^). In fact, the first name I registered turned out to be more
appropriate to a later-period Welsh male, and no one said "boo." I
changed it when I became a herald myself, learned more, and wanted a
more authentic name :-).

I understand some branch heralds will try to tell people that the
name has to match the persona, but if you get one of those then
appeal up-line, since Laurel has no such rule.

If you can handle the herald-speak (aka technical jargon), all the
College of Arms' rules are online at
http://www.sca.org/heraldry/laurel/regs.html -- the Rules for
Submissions and maybe the glossary are probably the most relevant.

I'll leave the Pictish/Gaelic specifics for the language experts :-).

YiS,
Baintighearna Muirghein Dhaire Faoilciarach  /|\
Dreiburgen Web Minister     http://www.dreiburgen.org
(any posts to e-mail lists do not reflect official
   opinions unless specifically stated otherwise)