The following aleyos-online poll is now closed.  Here are the
final results:


POLL QUESTION: What do you identify yourself with?

¿Con Cual Usted Se Identifica ?


CHOICES AND RESULTS
- Santeria, 5 votes, 35.71%
- Babalawo, 1 votes, 7.14%
- Espiritismo, 2 votes, 14.29%
- Palo, 2 votes, 14.29%
- More the one / Mas de uno, 4 votes, 28.57%



For more information about this group, please visit
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We would like to remind you of this upcoming event.

Dia de Obba

Date: Tuesday, February 4, 2003
Time: All Day

Today is the feast day of the orisha Obba.

Hoy es el dia que se celebra Obba.

Peace and Blessings

Cyber Santeria by Afolabi

I came accross this article, and that it would be of interested to the members of the community.

I have created a NEW poll based on this article.

Enjoy,

Paul

Omo Obatala

Enter your vote today!  A new poll has been created for the
aleyos-online group:

DO you believe that the internet is
helping Santeria?

Crees que la RED (internet) esta
ayudando la Santeria?

   o Yes
   o No
   o Not Sure


To vote, please visit the following web page:

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/aleyos-online/surveys?id=1034967

Note: Please do not reply to this message. Poll votes are
not collected via email. To vote, you must go to the Yahoo! Groups
web site listed above.

Thanks!

Cyber Santeria
by Afolabi
When I first gained access to the Internet, it was with great
excitement that I found resources for Orisha worshippers on the World
Wide Web. In those days, there were two websites, a message board on
AOL and one electronic mailing list. I happily indulged in all of
them.
From the very beginning, I saw things that bothered me. Aleyos,
Aborishas, and inexperienced Oloshas were being instructed by
cyber "elders" (these elders were as often non-initiates as they were
initiates), people were anonymously pontificating about ritual dogma
and, worst of all, separatists of various stripe were declaring who
could and couldn't be involved in the religion. When I began reading
these things, my first reaction (being a son of Yemoja) was to "save
the world". I would go into "rescue" mode and want to save everyone
from the charlatans. This is what prompted me to set up my website
and to be so active in Santeria newsgroups and message boards. I
furiously posted information in hopes that these self-
proclaimed "elders" would be abandoned. I provided services to people
seeking instruction and religious contacts. In hopes that I would
rescue people from the clutches of these frauds, I became a sort of
reference librarian to the world. As I look back, I am deeply ashamed
of myself for my arrogance and pomposity, and for contributing to the
detriment of the religion by instructing in a way other than through
godparent/godchild oral instruction.
I find this rescue-reflex happening to me less and less nowadays. I
am becoming more comfortable in my own spirituality, and more able to
trust that the universe is unfolding exactly as it should. I believe
that eventually, everyone who is truly on a path of growth will wind
up where they belong, and some of the lessons we need to learn
involve being ripped off, disillusioned and dragged over the coals.
One lesson that is potentially learned on the Internet is that
nothing will come of your life if you don't get out into creation,
and that the world is not meant to be experienced through a monitor.
During my hiatus from the Internet and other public forums for Orisha
worship, I took a step back and watched the antics of the "public"
Orisha worshippers a bit more carefully than when I was one of them.
I am amazed by how totally alien the "media" version of the religion
is when I compare it to the religion as I know it in my personal
life.
This difference becomes more apparent every time I meet someone who
has spent a long time on the sidelines--attending lectures, reading
books or surfing the net--before actually becoming involved in the
religion as it is practiced in the homes of priests. They are stunned
at how skewed their ideas of the religion were as influenced by
the "Elders" with whom they came in contact on the Internet or the
lecture circuit.
Whether it be on the net, or at "media" Orisha functions (e.g.
classes, lectures, symposiums, exhibitions, etc.), these "Elders" who
present themselves for public scrutiny are almost never those people
with whom I (or any of my friends in various parts of the country)
come in contact during the course of my involvement in the religion.
They are not the Oriates, Babalawos or Akpons whom we would encounter
when taking part in ceremonies in Miami, Los Angeles, Chicago or New
York. They seem to occupy a parallel universe, a universe in which
the importance of Shango and Yemoja pale in comparison to that of
authors, lecturers, academics and recording artists.
In this universe, priests cite the teachings of (often uninitiated)
authors rather than our esteemed ancestors. You will hear Robert
Farris Thompson or William Bascom much more quickly than you will
hear Liberato or Ayai Lewu La Tuan. Songs and Odu are no longer
learned from our initiators. Instead we are told which CDs to buy or
which books to read. We are told to foribale to screen names and e-
mail addresses, and to ask the bendicion of our monitors.
When I first moved to Michigan I was invited to present myself as an
Orisha worshipper at the "Great Lakes Pagan Council", a group of
local Wiccans and European oriented Neopagans. I went, and was really
freaked out by the racism and homophobia I encountered. Until then,
the only Wiccans and Neopagans I had met up with were the homebody
types; the kind of people who worship at home and have a circle of
people with whom they do ritual. This was the first time I had run
into "Public Wiccans"; the kind of people who never actually seem to
pull a ritual together, but spend an awful lot of time putting out
newsletters and organizing coffee klatches.
The same thing happened, come to think of it, when I first joined the
Orisha Mailing List. Never before had I been exposed to anything
outside of the "homebody" Santeria community. It was the first time I
had encountered racism, and the first time (with the exception of the
exclusionary policies of Paleros and Babalawos) that I had found
homophobia. It was also the first time that I found the kind of self-
proclaimed "elders" that we now see so many of on the Internet; the
kind who spend so much time on the net that it seems impossible they
could be working the religion on any kind of level. I know this to be
true because my own involvement in the Internet Orisha community cut
deeply into my life as a priest, and it was nowhere near as heavy as
some of those whose posts appear with such staggering frequency as to
be alarming.
Only now does it occur to me that this relatively small number of
people in the Orisha community have a whole lot in common with the
Media Wiccans. They are people who have found no peace in their
spirituality and, therefore, in their lives. They spew hate and
venom, they make sweeping proclamations and hellfire condemnations
the likes of which I have never seen in the Real-Life religion which
I have grown to love so much. They lay in wait for opportunities to
exercise their always chomping-at-the-bit righteous indignation and
climb another rung on the ladder of popularity. Their involvement
with the religion ends when the potluck begins. Their religious
knowledge and wisdom is rarely, if ever, displayed. Only when they
are given the opportunity to lambaste one another over minute details
or differences of opinion do they give their keyboards a workout.
Now that I REALLY think of it, this also brings to mind a comparison
of your average stay-at-home, private Christian with the Talking
Heads of Jerry Falwell and Pat Robertson. It seems that all of these
people, whether pagan, Santero or Christian, seem to be fanatically
trying to convince others that they are Right, perhaps to get some
sense of self-validation, or to stroke their as-yet-unstroked egos.
What is unfortunate is the effect these rantings have on newcomers.
Although the number of these armchair Pontiffs is small, they have,
sadly, tapped into a medium that gives them a level of public
exposure which dwarfs that of the more typical Orisha worshipper.
When you consider the number of Orisha worshippers that exist in this
world, and you compare that huge number to the number of
pontificating, hate-spewing Cyber-Nazi Santeros, which you can
probably count on your hands and feet, and then factor in the
profundity of the impression they give people of the Orisha
community, you begin to see how effective a tiny number of people can
be when they are plugged into the information superhighway. What the
Internet has created is an impression of our priests as suspicious,
hateful, vicious, untrustworthy, bigoted children who have nothing
better to do than to try to one-up each other in cyberspace. I will
say only once in this letter that if those novices out there who have
had no contact with the religion will make the effort to find a
decent priest, they will find that in the real world, this is simply
NOT the case.
I think that the personalities of these pseudo-priests have less to
do with the specific common denominator of this group of people (i.e.
Orisha worshippers) and more to do with the nature of people on the
Internet as a whole. Message boards, mailing lists and newsgroups
often attract people who have little or no social life. They are most
often people who feel they have no effect on the world around them,
and therefore make attempts to establish themselves as electronic
celebrities in the fantasy world of the Web. If you pay attention to
the rhythm of their posts, you will find that they have little to say
unless they are arguing or attempting to shoot others down. Lists and
message boards get incredibly active when it is time to attack, but
otherwise these people have almost nothing to say. Check any other
newsgroup or message board, whether it be political, spiritual,
sports or entertainment based, and you will find the same rhythm, the
same venom and the same desperate attempt to be "King of the Hill".
This has nothing to do with content, it has everything to do with
human nature, whether those people be Santeros, Republicans, Hockey
buffs or Sandra Bullock groupies.
When you are new to the Internet, it is very tempting to get involved
in all this mess. I know because I fell for it; hook, line and
sinker. It is very gratifying to post and have people answer you with
praise. It is also infuriating to see someone post some hideously
homophobic or racist trash. A person's first reaction is to respond
in equally vicious fashion. Our religion, however, teaches us
otherwise.
The arguments that take place on the net are moot. Homophobes and
racists will not see the light because somebody calls them a dirty
bastard. Oloshas and Awos, most of whom are quite well entrenched in
their practices are not about to change their policies regarding the
role of Ifa or Oriates PERIOD, let alone because of the
pontifications of some dubious priest or snot-nosed Aleyo who has
never once communicated his heart with the character befitting one
who would presume to speak for this religion. People will do what
they will do, and only time, positive dialogue and observation of the
examples of others will bring change.
The most important thing I have learned from my time in the Internet
trenches is that it is infinitely more in keeping with the goals of
the religion to keep a level head and a cool character, to speak your
truth, wherever you may speak it, in a clear and peaceful voice.
Those who are meant to hear it, will.
Is this to say that the religion on the Internet is a bad thing? No,
I don't think so. I wouldn't be here if I thought that it was. My
personal opinion is that it is only as harmful as the people
involved. I am sure that there are many people for whom the Internet
has been a primary tool for their introduction to the religion, and
that it has been a very positive experience for them. In my own
experience, someone whom I dearly love would not have found his place
in the religion nor would he have met me were it not for the net. I
am very thankful to have had the net to bring such a wonderful person
into my life. On the other hand, I have met many "priests" online
whose lives in the religion are a cyber-lie, "priests" to whom people
are flocking like lambs to the slaughter. This has led me to the
conclusion that the Internet is a good place for (extremely cautious)
networking and for recreation, but that as far as learning anything
of the practice of this religion, the abuses and potential dangers
for the novice far outweigh the benefits.
After expressing concerns about the behavior of the Orisha
worshippers on the Internet, a friend recently posed to me the
question: "Where are we going?" My answer is that we are going
exactly where we have always been going. The religion will continue
to teach evolution and development of character. People will continue
to benefit from it. The Internet will, in the end, be neither here
nor there in the big picture. Yes, on the net, there are those who
will come together with peace and truth in their hearts, and they
will grow because of it. As for those who are here only to perform
for their own benefit: Only in their minds, in which cyberspace is
the only real world, will their posturing be of any consequence.
Meanwhile, in basements, apartments, temples and homes; Oloshas, Awos
and Aborishas will worship, feed and celebrate the Orishas, actively
participating in that which those who exist in the religion only on
the net so desperately want to play a part. As with every other group
in the world, there are those who DO and others who only sit and
theorize. Those who sit and theorize will, in the end, have no effect
whatsoever.

I'm new here and would like to learn more about santeria.  Can
someone refer some reading materials.  I'd prefer to have someone
mentor me if possible.  I live in Jersey City, NJ.

Thanks.

Adah

Adah, hi. como estas. cuanso quieras esdribeme

 "muneca2000ajc <adah.challenger@...>" <adah.challenger@...> wrote:

I'm new here and would like to learn more about santeria.  Can
someone refer some reading materials.  I'd prefer to have someone
mentor me if possible.  I live in Jersey City, NJ.

Thanks.

Adah


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Hi All,

Just wanted to take this opportunity to introduce myself. My name is
Lutty I am from Brooklyn, New York. I still have not been fully
initiated I will be receiving my Elekes w/in a mth. And hopefully my
warriors right after. I have joined this group to gain more
knowledge on the deities. I will soon be moving to San Antonio Texas
which will be bit difficult for me  my madrina resides in Queens and
I wouldn't change her for the world so departing from her side will
be a difficult task for me. I really look forward to learning more
from this group and hopefully some day be able to help new group
members.

How much does the Elekes initiation usually go for? I have a friend
who claims they paid 400 for them but in a book I read it states you
are not supposed to pay for this. My understanding is that
everything has a price. Can someone clarify this for me.

Thanks

Hello Hija de oshun,

Everything in santo has its price, and its usually the same.  Nothing in santo is free, there has to be a derecho, for animals, ceremonies, and etc.

The usual price is around 150 to 200 dollars. If there are people charging 400 dollars and up they are crooks. You can tell the good santeros fromt he crooked ones in this case. Not everything should be money. But understand that you cant go by what books say. There is always a price within santeria. I hope this information helps.

 "hija_d_oshun <jewel1_99@...>" <jewel1_99@...> wrote:

How much does the Elekes initiation usually go for? I have a friend
who claims they paid 400 for them but in a book I read it states you
are not supposed to pay for this. My understanding is that
everything has a price. Can someone clarify this for me.

Thanks





Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.

Thanks for your response Latin :)

--- In aleyos-online@yahoogroups.com, latin pr0phet
<latinpr0phet@y...> wrote:
>
> Hello Hija de oshun,
> Everything in santo has its price, and its usually the same.
Nothing in santo is free, there has to be a derecho, for animals,
ceremonies, and etc.
> The usual price is around 150 to 200 dollars. If there are people
charging 400 dollars and up they are crooks. You can tell the good
santeros fromt he crooked ones in this case. Not everything should
be money. But understand that you cant go by what books say. There
is always a price within santeria. I hope this information helps.
>  "hija_d_oshun <jewel1_99@y...>" <jewel1_99@y...> wrote:How much
does the Elekes initiation usually go for? I have a friend
> who claims they paid 400 for them but in a book I read it states
you
> are not supposed to pay for this. My understanding is that
> everything has a price. Can someone clarify this for me.
>
> Thanks
>
>
>
>
> Yahoo! Groups SponsorADVERTISEMENT
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of
Service.
>
>
>
> ---------------------------------
> Do you Yahoo!?
> Yahoo! Shopping - Send Flowers for Valentine's Day

My godparents teach that everything does have a cost, whether it's an offering of fresh flowers or owo...(money), there are things that you must obtain for this ceremony...My Iya, by her ita, she is made to Oshun, i have to bring something for services received, even if it is just some fruit, or a flower....for all the ire and help you get, the payment is well worth it...Sorry for responding so late I was snowed in 

 "hija_d_oshun <jewel1_99@...>" <jewel1_99@...> wrote:

How much does the Elekes initiation usually go for? I have a friend
who claims they paid 400 for them but in a book I read it states you
are not supposed to pay for this. My understanding is that
everything has a price. Can someone clarify this for me.

Thanks





Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.

Welcome, I suggest the John Mason, book series, sart with the "Four New World Principles" 

l Cesar Augusto Azaf Rumier <cesarmayimbe@...> wrote:

Adah, hi. como estas. cuanso quieras esdribeme

 "muneca2000ajc <adah.challenger@...>" <adah.challenger@...> wrote:

I'm new here and would like to learn more about santeria.  Can
someone refer some reading materials.  I'd prefer to have someone
mentor me if possible.  I live in Jersey City, NJ.

Thanks.

Adah


Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.

---

Yahoo! Móviles
Personaliza tu móvil con tu logo y melodía favorito

Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.

:) .. thanks for the response .. oh trust me I know about being snowed in :) NYC was horrible these past 3 days

 josette williamson <blakdaisy@...> wrote:

My godparents teach that everything does have a cost, whether it's an offering of fresh flowers or owo...(money), there are things that you must obtain for this ceremony...My Iya, by her ita, she is made to Oshun, i have to bring something for services received, even if it is just some fruit, or a flower....for all the ire and help you get, the payment is well worth it...Sorry for responding so late I was snowed in 

 "hija_d_oshun <jewel1_99@...>" <jewel1_99@...> wrote:

How much does the Elekes initiation usually go for? I have a friend
who claims they paid 400 for them but in a book I read it states you
are not supposed to pay for this. My understanding is that
everything has a price. Can someone clarify this for me.

Thanks





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Praise to the orishas + Greetings to members

I'm selecting a patron saint now + am considering Santa Barbara /
Chango. I like the military action + swift fairness dealt in this
orisha's name. Isn't s/he also ruler of kids w/o parents? Any
thoughts from catholics + sons/daughters of Chango or about your own
selecting of a patron saint would be interesting, thanks.

Petra Petro
illmondo@...

About Sango/Sta.Barbara as patron - Yemaya has my head in Santeria +
I'm a woman w/a bunch of athletic, academic, art background. Navy
background too, but was just a non-conformist in the photo-pool. What
say you? thanks again.

PetraPetro
illmondo@...

Does anyone know of any Botanica in the New York City area that
specializes in selling clothing for Iyawo or initiates? Any
information will be greatly appreciated.

Greetings to All.

I come peacefully and on friendly terms to let people here know about
our online resource for people in the religions who have been abused,
conned, harrassed, threatend, etc. We all know it goes on and the
victims of this abuse are largely relegated to a closet of silence.
Victims of spiritual abuse in these religions will be able to get
support and share their stories anonymously and with full recognition
of the validity of their experiences.

Please visit our site and message boards at:

http://thebelievers.freeservers.com

http://pub37.ezboard.com/bthebelievers34254

In our "house" the victim *is* the authority on these religions, not
priests. As we respect the authority of priests in their own forums,
we ask for the same respect for victims at our own forum.

What we can do for victims of abuse is give them the space to be an
authority over their own situations and also we want to help others
who are seeking to leave the religions. Though you certainly don't
have to leave your faith to get support for the abuse you have
suffered, but that option is always open in our "house."

Peace be to all.

The Believers

iyawo colari...I think t he website is www.crownofache.com...they have a package that includes everything from clothes to esteras...

 "hija_d_oshun <jewel1_99@...>" <jewel1_99@...> wrote:

Does anyone know of any Botanica in the New York City area that
specializes in selling clothing for Iyawo or initiates? Any
information will be greatly appreciated.



Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.

I dont know of any stores but i know a couple of people that sew and are priests in the religion so they know what is needed. feel free to email me and i will get you that information. she is a private seamstress

 josette williamson <blakdaisy@...> wrote:

iyawo colari...I think t he website is www.crownofache.com...they have a package that includes everything from clothes to esteras...

 "hija_d_oshun <jewel1_99@...>" <jewel1_99@...> wrote:

Does anyone know of any Botanica in the New York City area that
specializes in selling clothing for Iyawo or initiates? Any
information will be greatly appreciated.



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Thanks :) I appreciate your help, btw I love your name never heard it before its very pretty. God Bless

 Shantey Hernandez <chachih@...> wrote:

I dont know of any stores but i know a couple of people that sew and are priests in the religion so they know what is needed. feel free to email me and i will get you that information. she is a private seamstress

 josette williamson <blakdaisy@...> wrote:

iyawo colari...I think t he website is www.crownofache.com...they have a package that includes everything from clothes to esteras...

 "hija_d_oshun <jewel1_99@...>" <jewel1_99@...> wrote:

Does anyone know of any Botanica in the New York City area that
specializes in selling clothing for Iyawo or initiates? Any
information will be greatly appreciated.



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Yahoo! Tax Center - forms, calculators, tips, and more

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That website is now defunct.  It was a "store" based in Brooklyn.  It
was mail order only, there was no physical store to buy from.  They
were vey unreliable in getting back to prospective buyers as well.
There is a place in NYC on 106 Street between 1st and 2nd avenues
that sell santo clothing.

-Kay


--- In aleyos-online@yahoogroups.com, josette williamson
<blakdaisy@y...> wrote:
>
> iyawo colari...I think t he website is www.crownofache.com...they
have a package that includes everything from clothes to esteras...
>  "hija_d_oshun <jewel1_99@y...>" <jewel1_99@y...> wrote:Does anyone
know of any Botanica in the New York City area that
> specializes in selling clothing for Iyawo or initiates? Any
> information will be greatly appreciated.
>
>
> Yahoo! Groups SponsorADVERTISEMENT
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of
Service.
>
>
>
> ---------------------------------
> Do you Yahoo!?
> Yahoo! Tax Center - forms, calculators, tips, and more

 "cric_crac212 <cric_crac212@...>" <cric_crac212@...> wrote:

That website is now defunct.  It was a "store" based in Brooklyn.  It
was mail order only, there was no physical store to buy from.  They
were vey unreliable in getting back to prospective buyers as well. 
There is a place in NYC on 106 Street between 1st and 2nd avenues
that sell santo clothing.

-Kay


--- In aleyos-online@yahoogroups.com, josette williamson
<blakdaisy@y...> wrote:
>
> iyawo colari...I think t he website is www.crownofache.com...they
have a package that includes everything from clothes to esteras...
>  "hija_d_oshun <jewel1_99@y...>" <jewel1_99@y...> wrote:Does anyone
know of any Botanica in the New York City area that
> specializes in selling clothing for Iyawo or initiates? Any
> information will be greatly appreciated.
>
>
> Yahoo! Groups SponsorADVERTISEMENT
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of
Service.
>
>
>
> ---------------------------------
> Do you Yahoo!?
> Yahoo! Tax Center - forms, calculators, tips, and more



Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.

"I knew several people who ordered, they didnt have any problems...I
know of sidel's in LA that does orders for iyawos"


Ok.  Well, maybe it was just the timining.  I contacted them recently
and they recently took down their site.

Is there a website for that place in LA that provides the same
service?

-Kay

There's one on 106th Street on the East side I think and there is also one in Brooklyn, but I am not sure of the address. When I get more info I will forward it to you.

 "hija_d_oshun <jewel1_99@...>" <jewel1_99@...> wrote:

Does anyone know of any Botanica in the New York City area that
specializes in selling clothing for Iyawo or initiates? Any
information will be greatly appreciated.



Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.

The following aleyos-online poll is now closed.  Here are the
final results:


POLL QUESTION: DO you believe that the internet is
helping Santeria?

Crees que la RED (internet) esta
ayudando la Santeria?

CHOICES AND RESULTS
- Yes, 5 votes, 71.43%
- No, 2 votes, 28.57%
- Not Sure, 0 votes, 0.00%



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There's a great website also that has somethings you might be interested in.

www.lucumi.com

 "cric_crac212 <cric_crac212@...>" <cric_crac212@...> wrote:

"I knew several people who ordered, they didnt have any problems...I
know of sidel's in LA that does orders for iyawos"


Ok.  Well, maybe it was just the timining.  I contacted them recently
and they recently took down their site. 

Is there a website for that place in LA that provides the same
service?

-Kay



Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.

Thank you

--- In aleyos-online@yahoogroups.com, Donna <panche70@y...> wrote:
>
> There's a great website also that has somethings you might be
interested in.
> www.lucumi.com
>  "cric_crac212 <cric_crac212@y...>" <cric_crac212@y...> wrote:"I
knew several people who ordered, they didnt have any problems...I
> know of sidel's in LA that does orders for iyawos"
>
>
> Ok.  Well, maybe it was just the timining.  I contacted them
recently
> and they recently took down their site.
>
> Is there a website for that place in LA that provides the same
> service?
>
> -Kay
>
>
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