Congratulations, Joseph! May the Lord bless you, Jung Eun, and your children to
come. (:-)

Rolaant

Hi everyone,

I want to warn you against the UFO cults and the  ancient
extra-terrestrials myth.


The "Ancient Aliens" series of TV shows on  the History Channel
unfortunately promotes the ancient  astronaut teachings of Erich Von Daniken.
The major
tenets of the ancient  astronaut theory is the claim that astronauts in
space ships from  planets in distant star systems visited earth in ancient
times and profoundly  influenced ancient history.


Much of the evidence discussed on the "Ancient Aliens"  (AA) TV shows has
to do with large stone structures built by ancient people  including temples
and tombs such as Puma Punku in Bolivia and  The Great Pyramid at Giza in
Egypt.


I have found that the AA TV shows contain distortions of  historical facts,
outright false statements and very extreme speculation.  Ancient astronaut
theorists tend to see all of ancient history through the lens  of alleged
visits by astronauts.

I've written several articles refuting ancient astronauts  theory. My DTF
articles 238, 239 and 240 all deal with UFOs and I warn against  the cultish,
new age type teachings often associated with them. Why do I  spend so much
time debunking bizarre UFO related theories? We must debunk the  UFO cults
because they are leading many young people astray. At least one of the  AA TV
show "experts" made the openly blasphemous claim that the God of the
ancient Israelites was merely an ancient astronaut that the Israelites falsely
deified!

Bad as that blasphemy was, it's not the only danger posed by the  UFO
cults. Implicit in the UFO cults is the claim that there is more than  one
inhabited planet in the universe. Earth and human beings are diminished if 
earth
is just one of many earths. Did Jesus visit each earth and die for the  sins
of each earth?


I will hasten to point out that even if there are many earths it  doesn't
directly contradict the Bible. The Bible is silent on the claim of
intelligent life on other planets. God could have created many humanities and
redeemed them all. I just feel that the UFO cult claim of other worlds tends to
dilute the overall Bible doctrines of mankind and redemption.


I see a parallel between UFO cults and Hinduism. The UFO cults  say there
are many worlds. Hinduism says there are many lives each person will  live.
The cults therefore draw people away after many worlds or many  lives.



Hindus claim that humans live many lives according  to their doctrine of
reincarnation. The doctrine of reincarnation  diminishes the value of your
present life because it's just one life out of many  lives that you will
supposedly live. The Bible says each person lives one life  (Hebrews 9:27) and
in
this one life we must repent from sin and turn to God  through Christ to
receive forgiveness of sins.

  UFO researchers are divided into two different viewpoints  in explaining
UFOs. These viewpoints are the extraterrestrial  hypothesis and the
interdimensional hypothesis. The  extraterrestrial hypothesis is the claim that
UFOs
are metal spaceships with  astronauts from planets in star systems within
our own physical universe. The AA  TV shows promote this view.

The interdimensional hypothesis is the claim that UFOs  are nonmaterial
beings or spirits that travel from different  dimensions and enter our universe
from a parallel universe.

The interdimensional hypothesis is more consistent with the Bible  and the
Christian worldview because it can be inferred that at least some of the
other dimensions of the parallel universe are the same as the realm of
spirit. The Bible certainly acknowledges the existence of the spirit  world. The
spirit world is the realm of the supernatural.
Most, if not all, Christian researchers and some secular  researchers,
including Jacques Vallee, reject the extraterrestrial  hypothesis and maintain
the interdimensional view. In studying UFOs, I've come  to believe that we're
dealing with intelligent life not from other planets  but from other
dimensions. It's not astronauts from outer space but spirit  beings from the
realm
of spirit.
I regard UFOs as generally of the same category as poltergeists,
hauntings, occultism and other manifestations of the demonic realm. I hold this 
view
because of the deceptive, antibiblical teachings that are transmitted from
UFOs such as the doctrines of the UFO cults and the New  Age teachings that
UFO "abductees" claim to receive. Also the bizarre  animal mutilations
attributed to UFOs in which animals have their blood drained  and have organs
removed with surgical precision is further evidence of the  demonic origin of
UFOs. Can spirit beings cut animal flesh? I believe they  can.
In this article we will take a look at one of the seven wonders  of the
ancient world. The Great Pyramid of Giza in Egypt is the only one of the  seven
wonders still standing. In accordance with their pagan faith, the
Egyptians regarded their Pharaohs as gods. The living Pharaoh was considered to 
be
an incarnation of the god Horus, god of the heavens and protector  of the
sun god. After death, the Pharaoh was believed to transition to  become the
god Osiris, king of the dead.

To facilitate this life to death transition, the Pharaohs  ordered the
construction of elaborate tombs and mortuary temples. Early tombs of  the first
and second dynasties were simple compared to the huge pyramids that  were
built later. The Great Pyramid of Giza was built to be the tomb of Khufu,  the
second ruler of the fourth dynasty.

The AA TV show makes the false claim that there is no evidence  that the
Great Pyramid was ever used as a tomb. This is in spite of the plain
historical fact that a sarcophagus (coffin) was discovered in the King's 
chamber
near the center of the pyramid. The AA TV show also claims that  there are no
inscriptions on the walls indicating for whom the  tomb was built. On the
contrary, a reference to Pharaoh Khufu was found  written on stone in a
chamber above the King's Chamber.

The AA TV show dismisses the fact that the pyramid was a tomb  and advances
a bizarre claim in keeping with ancient astronauts theory. The AA  TV show
then features an engineer who puts forth the claim that the Great  Pyramid
was a power plant that produced energy by the mixing of chemicals in  three
chambers inside the pyramid. The three chambers are the Queen's chamber,  the
Grand Gallery and the King's chamber. This professional engineer then
seriously alleges that the chemical reaction somehow caused a microwave beam to
shoot forth out of the pyramid into outer space to hit a satellite and the
satellite directed the energy beam back to another part of earth to power
some kind of machinery.

That theory is absurd when you consider that if the ancient  astronauts
theory were true, the spaceships from other star systems would surely  have
mastered cold fusion, antigravity and who knows what else as sophisticated
energy sources. They wouldn't have had to rely on producing energy from a stone
  furnace on earth! The evidence clearly points to the fact that the pyramid
was a  tomb.

There are two other smaller pyramids in the necropolis at Giza.  The
Pyramid of Khafre (son of Khufu) is smaller because this pyramid features  the
giant sphinx, which is an idol depicting Khafre's face on the body of a  lion.
The third pyramid is even smaller but its mortuary temple complex is  larger
than those of the other pyramids. It seems that the Pharaohs had limited
resources and those that built smaller pyramids built other structures
larger.

The AA TV show also claims that the precision and complexity and  size of
the Great Pyramid are such that the ancient Egyptians must have had help
from ancient astronauts who supposedly provided technical training and tools.
I've refuted this before in other articles but let me recap it here.

First of all, imagine intelligent beings on another planet  saying to each
other: " Let's fly 20 light years over to planet earth and  teach the
earthlings how to move huge stone blocks and do precise masonry  work."  Why
would
intelligent beings come here to help build temples,  monuments and tombs?
If they came, why didn't they teach the ancient people  about electricity,
internal combustion motors, plastics, glass, hydraulics and  any number of
modern technologies?

The ancient pagan stone masons were immensely skilled but  if they did have
help from aliens it was from spirit aliens of the  demonic realm. After
all, they were building pagan temples and tombs that  idolatrously glorified
the pharaohs. Perhaps the ancients who built elaborate  tombs had demonic
anointings to accomplish their work. Demonic power and demonic  anointings are
consistent with the interdimensional alien view and not  consistent with the
extraterrestrial alien view.

In the Bible, in Exodus 31:1-3 we read that the  Lord filled Bezalel with
the Spirit of God in order to give him skill in  craftsmanship to build the
tabernacle in the wilderness. God gave help to  Bezalel by spiritual means to
help him build a holy tabernacle. It's not hard to  believe that demons
could have aided craftsmen with demonic power to build pagan  temples and tombs.

I've read that engineers have calculated that the Great Pyramid  could have
been built by natural, ordinary means in as little as ten years  utilizing
ancient building methods and a work force of not more than 40,000. The
remains of a village that housed the workers has been discovered near the
pyramid including the ruins of houses and even the remnants of bakeries  that
could have produced thousands of loaves of bread to feed the mason crews.

The ancient astronaut theory offers great appeal to young  people in our
present age of rocketry and space exploration. This ancient  astronaut theory
is just one more thing that exalts itself against the  knowledge of God.

We must point people to Jesus who came in fulfillment of over  300 Old
Testament Bible prophecies written hundreds of years before His birth.  No other
person in all of history can match this claim! Jesus worked miracles in
front of eyewitnesses and this is recorded in the Gospels of the New
Testament. Miracles continue to be worked today by Christians who rely on  the
power
of Christ. I've met Ralph Anderson, a man dramatically and instantly
healed of severe cerebral palsy at a service conducted by healing evangelist
Kathryn Kuhlmann. Many other miraculous healings occur today in the name of
Jesus in Christian meetings all over the world!

Jesus suffered and died to take upon Himself the penalty of our  sins thus
making atonement. He rose from the dead in victory and appeared to
eyewitnesses. Call upon Jesus Christ today to receive forgiveness of sins.


-Bill in NY



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Hello Friends,

I have a very disturbed nonpractising Jewish friend who has confided to me her
inner most feelings over the last eighteen months, and is now crying out for
advice to cope with her father’s impending death, he is in his eighties and
has a brain tumour.

During her childhood, her and her four sisters were badly abused emotionally,
verbally but not physically as far as I was able to tell, resulting in loss of
self esteem, self respect and a total lack of confidence in themselves, before
he left their mother. It has badly affected them all in different ways. My
friend helped her mother cope with the yongsters as much as she could, in view
of the fact that she was in her teens at the time and damaged too. They
struggled on alone whilst their father remarried, had lots of money and now
lives in Spain with all the luxuries money can buy.

To cut a long story short, my friend coped very well, holding down a job,
getting married and having two beautiful but, disabled children. She has taught
her children to be “Good” and my friend does a lot of good work and relies
on her good works, but wasn’t interested in Christ or God in any way.

When I was introduced to her, we talked a lot and I even had the rare and
wonderful chance of witnessing to her about the love of God and the forgiveness
of God for our sins and the promises of God through Christ. Unfortunately, she
began to not only resist the message and the Call of Jesus to her, but actually
started shutting the door. Rather than put her in the position of shutting the
door irrevocably to our Lord, I backed off, but left the door open to her to
call for help and guideance if ever she wanted it.

She is still very angry towards her father and doesn’t want to forgive him in
any shape or form, but also knows that I shall mention this in some way or other
in my reply to her, but, I don’t want her to “Let the sun go down on her
anger”, resulting in a life long regret for not dealing with the anger that is
in her, before his death.

She was also very surprised at the sense of loss, the emotional distress at
hearing the news and is inevitably angry with herself for feeling these things.

I would ask you, dear friends, to pray that God will give me some wisdom,
sensitivity, and the correct words to write to her, in her time of need.

Thank you all in the Love of our Lord Jesus and our Father in heaven,

Geoff



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Praying now, dear brother.

Ron




-------Original Message-------

From: geoff Smith
Date: 3/5/2012 9:14:42 AM
To: apologetics@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [apologetics and theology] A call for Wisdom.


Hello Friends,

I have a very disturbed nonpractising Jewish friend who has confided to me
her inner most feelings over the last eighteen months, and is now crying out
for advice to cope with her father’s impending death, he is in his eighties
and has a brain tumour.

During her childhood, her and her four sisters were badly abused emotionally
  verbally but not physically as far as I was able to tell, resulting in loss
of self esteem, self respect and a total lack of confidence in themselves,
before he left their mother. It has badly affected them all in different
ways. My friend helped her mother cope with the yongsters as much as she
could, in view of the fact that she was in her teens at the time and damaged
too. They struggled on alone whilst their father remarried, had lots of
money and now lives in Spain with all the luxuries money can buy.

To cut a long story short, my friend coped very well, holding down a job,
getting married and having two beautiful but, disabled children. She has
taught her children to be “Good” and my friend does a lot of good work and
relies on her good works, but wasn’t interested in Christ or God in any way.

When I was introduced to her, we talked a lot and I even had the rare and
wonderful chance of witnessing to her about the love of God and the
forgiveness of God for our sins and the promises of God through Christ.
Unfortunately, she began to not only resist the message and the Call of
Jesus to her, but actually started shutting the door. Rather than put her in
the position of shutting the door irrevocably to our Lord, I backed off, but
left the door open to her to call for help and guideance if ever she wanted
it.

She is still very angry towards her father and doesn’t want to forgive him
in any shape or form, but also knows that I shall mention this in some way
or other in my reply to her, but, I don’t want her to “Let the sun go down
on her anger”, resulting in a life long regret for not dealing with the
anger that is in her, before his death.

She was also very surprised at the sense of loss, the emotional distress at
hearing the news and is inevitably angry with herself for feeling these
things.

I would ask you, dear friends, to pray that God will give me some wisdom,
sensitivity, and the correct words to write to her, in her time of need.

Thank you all in the Love of our Lord Jesus and our Father in heaven,

Geoff

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]





[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Does anyone here know where it is clearly stated in the mormon
scriptures that Jesus was created by God the father?  I have a mormon
telling me that they don't teach that.  I am sure he is error, but I
would like to quote it from their own scripture.

Thanks,
Chris Maness

I don't believe it is taught as a Mormon doctrine, definitely part of
Jehovah Wittiness doctrine

Glen Mize

On Tue, Mar 6, 2012 at 12:34 PM, Chris Maness <chris@...> wrote:

> **
>
>
> Does anyone here know where it is clearly stated in the mormon
> scriptures that Jesus was created by God the father? I have a mormon
> telling me that they don't teach that. I am sure he is error, but I
> would like to quote it from their own scripture.
>
> Thanks,
> Chris Maness
>
>


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

You will not find the concept that God (Elohim) "created" Jesus in the four
standard works of the Utah based LDS--Book of Mormon, Pearl of Great Price,
Doctrine and Covenants, and the KJV Bible.

Rather, under the overarching doctrine of eternal progression, which is not
found in the Four Standard Works, you have Elohim fathering innumerable spirit
children with his spirit wives.  His two 'favorite' spirit sons were Jesus (aka
Jehovah, D&C 110; Abra. 2:7-8) and Lucifer.  Elohim did not create the mortal
form Jehovah assumed while on this earth, rather Elohim procreated with Mary to
produce "the literal and personal Son of God the Father" in the words of the
late Bruce McConkie, one of the General Authorities within the LDS
organization.  Citations he gives for the procreation of Jesus are 1 Nephi
11:13-21; Alma 7:10; 2 Nephi 17:14.  But the understanding that Elohim took
human form as Joseph in order to have sex with Mary is not in the Standard Works
but is taught in other sources (e.g. Journal of Discourses 1:50-51).

The idea that God "created" Jesus in any ex nihilo sense as he did the universe
is a Jehovah's Witness doctrine, not a Mormon one.

 
Respectfully,
Stephen Lord


>________________________________
> From: Chris Maness <chris@...>
>To: apologetics@yahoogroups.com
>Sent: Tuesday, March 6, 2012 12:34 PM
>Subject: [apologetics and theology] Mormon Question
>
>
> 
>Does anyone here know where it is clearly stated in the mormon
>scriptures that Jesus was created by God the father?  I have a mormon
>telling me that they don't teach that.  I am sure he is error, but I
>would like to quote it from their own scripture.
>
>Thanks,
>Chris Maness
>
>
>
>

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

> The idea that God "created" Jesus in any ex nihilo sense as he did the
universe is a Jehovah's Witness doctrine, not a Mormon one.
>
>
> Respectfully,
> Stephen Lord
>

Ok, then Greg Koukl is in error.  He has stated more than once on his
radio show that this is a tactic for witnessing to mormons too.  The
Mormon scriptures you site are a little creepy.  They kind of portray
God like a dirty old man looking down on Mary -- just weird.

I will have to let Greg know.

Do they teach that WE are eternal?  Because we are to become
equivalent to Christ in our own world that all good mormons will
inherit.  If we are uncreated, then God did not create us.  That
clearly goes against Colossians 1:15-17

15 The Son is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all
creation. 16 For in him all things were created: things in heaven and
on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or powers or rulers
or authorities; all things have been created through him and for him.
17 He is before all things, and in him all things hold together.

If they teach that we are not eternal, we can not become Gods like
their doctrine of devine progression suggest because we can not go
from being a created being to a uncreated being (a god).

I think this is a major shortcoming and a logical flaw in their
doctrine.  I did point this out to my friend.  I never attack their
"prophet" as I believe they are trained and equipped to tune out any
criticism of J.S.

Thanks,
Chris Maness

Chris

>>>>>Ok, then Greg Koukl is in error. He has stated more than once on his
radio show that this is a tactic for witnessing to mormons too. The
Mormon scriptures you site are a little creepy. They kind of portray
God like a dirty old man looking down on Mary -- just weird.>>>>>>

Hi!  I just wanted to add that I, too, heard a similar teaching in an Assembly
of God church.  A Christian psychologist became affiliated with the church (the
church quit doing counseling because a few pastors were counseling and liking it
so much they had become intimate....conclusion of pastoral staff....no more
counseling...and no they did not take pay cuts for less service:).  The
psychologist was selling videos and very expensive services that most Christians
could not afford....answer...use their doctor and your insurance....some became
very addicted to legal drugs...one man committed suicide.  On one video the
psychologist said the Holy Spirit had a sexual encounter with Mary.  He said it
is the only way to create a child and no man could do it so God let the Holy
Spirit do it while Mary ovulated.  And worse was the class agreed!   I quit the
class because those videos were assuming waaaayyyy too much.

Just so you know...some Christians are gullible and often the leadership is
undiscerning.....that teaching is in the Christian church...but thankfully, not
prevalent.

God bless, Alice

-------Original Message-------

From: Chris Maness
Date: 3/6/2012 6:45:26 PM
To: apologetics@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [apologetics and theology] Mormon Question


> The idea that God "created" Jesus in any ex nihilo sense as he did the
universe is a Jehovah's Witness doctrine, not a Mormon one.
>
>
> Respectfully,
> Stephen Lord
>

Ok, then Greg Koukl is in error. He has stated more than once on his
radio show that this is a tactic for witnessing to mormons too. The
Mormon scriptures you site are a little creepy. They kind of portray
God like a dirty old man looking down on Mary -- just weird.

I will have to let Greg know.

Do they teach that WE are eternal? Because we are to become
equivalent to Christ in our own world that all good mormons will
inherit. If we are uncreated, then God did not create us. That
Clearly goes against Colossians 1:15-17

15 The Son is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all
creation. 16 For in him all things were created: things in heaven and
on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or powers or rulers
or authorities; all things have been created through him and for him.
17 He is before all things, and in him all things hold together.

If they teach that we are not eternal, we can not become Gods like
Their doctrine of devine progression suggest because we can not go
from being a created being to a uncreated being (a god).

I think this is a major shortcoming and a logical flaw in their
Doctrine. I did point this out to my Friend. I NEver attack their
"prophet" as I believe they are trained and equipped to tune out any
Criticism of J.S.

Thanks,
Chris Maness

Chris




[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Somehow, this didn't transmit before...
.Yes --- Eternal progression teaches that God was once as we are and we will
someday be as he is.
Also the Book of Mormon was, supposedly, delivered by the angel Moroni on
golden plates.  Now look at Gal 1:8.  Note that the statement is made twice
for emphasis!
Personally, I believe that Joseph Smith did receive a revelation from an
angel that day.  I believe that revelation was due to Joseph Smith's
curiosity and delving into ungodly activities such as fortune telling and
other spiritualist pursuits.
I don't believe that the angels name was really Moroni though. .. But
Lucifer can still apear as an "angel of light". .
Ron - Western NC



-------Original Message-------

From: Chris Maness
Date: 3/6/2012 6:45:26 PM
To: apologetics@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [apologetics and theology] Mormon Question


> The idea that God "created" Jesus in any ex nihilo sense as he did the
universe is a Jehovah's Witness doctrine, not a Mormon one.
>
>
> Respectfully,
> Stephen Lord
>

Ok, then Greg Koukl is in error. He has stated more than once on his
radio show that this is a tactic for witnessing to mormons too. The
Mormon scriptures you site are a little creepy. They kind of portray
God like a dirty old man looking down on Mary -- just weird.

I will have to let Greg know.

Do they teach that WE are eternal? Because we are to become
equivalent to Christ in our own world that all good mormons will
inherit. If we are uncreated, then God did not create us. That
Clearly goes against Colossians 1:15-17

15 The Son is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all
creation. 16 For in him all things were created: things in heaven and
on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or powers or rulers
or authorities; all things have been created through him and for him.
17 He is before all things, and in him all things hold together.

If they teach that we are not eternal, we can not become Gods like
Their doctrine of devine progression suggest because we can not go
from being a created being to a uncreated being (a god).

I think this is a major shortcoming and a logical flaw in their
Doctrine. I did point this out to my Friend. I NEver attack their
"prophet" as I believe they are trained and equipped to tune out any
Criticism of J.S.

Thanks,
Chris Maness

Chris






.




[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Ron, do you see the same logical problems that the doctrine of eternal
progression produces?  In other words, we can't be like God if we are
created, and we can't be God's creatures if we are eternal
(uncreated).

Chris

If memory serves me correctly the book of Mormon does not contain any LDS
doctrine.  I think we might be able to find it in Doctrines and Covenants.  I
don't have my copy readily available but if I stumble upon it I will throw you
the reference.

Rob Lundberg
Director, Stand4Truth.Net
540.424.2305
stand4truthapologetics@...


On Mar 7, 2012, at 5:32 AM, us-entrepreneurs <burkrb99@...> wrote:

> > Hi Chris
> >
> > There are two groups in the world. Christians believe in Christ, as God
> > and others do not. There are only Christians and atheists in the sense that
> > anyone who does not believe in Christ as God is in my book an atheist.
> > Mormons are not Christians in the sense I define Christians. Atheists of
> > all stripes will try and gloss over their rejection of Jesus but however
> > they reject him, unless they are Fundamentalist Christian they ultimately
> > and logically reject the risen Christ.
> >
> >
> >
> > There will be many who argue against this position but from a rational
> > standpoint it is unassailable. The world forces people to choose, to make
> > choices. The ultimate choice is Jesus. As said many people including
> > professing Christians try and gloss over their rejection of Jesus as Christ
> > but our hearts, our choices, our values, betray who we are. We either
> > accept Christ or reject him. Two choices totally irreconcilable.
> >
> >
> >
> > I have a booklet that contains a program of economic development based on
> > a Fundamentalist interpretation of Scripture. It promotes cooperation and
> > penalizes greed and prevents the externalization of costs. Anyone who
> > wishes to learn how to create local development without the use of debt,
> > banks, or government subsidies, using a program ideally suited for
> > Christian small groups provide me with an email and a copy will be sent you.
> >
> >
> >
> Robert
>
> > Does anyone here know where it is clearly stated in the mormon
> > scriptures that Jesus was created by God the father? I have a mormon
> > telling me that they don't teach that. I am sure he is error, but I
> > would like to quote it from their own scripture.
> >
> > Thanks,
> > Chris Maness
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > Messages in this topic (8)
> > __________________________________________________________
> > 1b. Re: Mormon Question
> > Posted by: "Glen Mize" gmize1956@... mizemizemize
> > Date: Tue Mar 6, 2012 10:56 am ((PST))
> >
> > I don't believe it is taught as a Mormon doctrine, definitely part of
> > Jehovah Wittiness doctrine
> >
> > Glen Mize
> >
> > On Tue, Mar 6, 2012 at 12:34 PM, Chris Maness <chris@...>
> > wrote:
> >
> > > **
> > >
> > >
> > > Does anyone here know where it is clearly stated in the mormon
> > > scriptures that Jesus was created by God the father? I have a mormon
> > > telling me that they don't teach that. I am sure he is error, but I
> > > would like to quote it from their own scripture.
> > >
> > > Thanks,
> > > Chris Maness
> > >
> > >
> >
> >
> > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > Messages in this topic (8)
> > __________________________________________________________
> > 1c. Re: Mormon Question
> > Posted by: "Stephen Lord" endeomenos@... endeomenos
> > Date: Tue Mar 6, 2012 2:23 pm ((PST))
> >
> > You will not find the concept that God (Elohim) "created" Jesus in the
> > four standard works of the Utah based LDS--Book of Mormon, Pearl of Great
> > Price, Doctrine and Covenants, and the KJV Bible.
> >
> > Rather, under the overarching doctrine of eternal progression, which is
> > not found in the Four Standard Works, you have Elohim fathering innumerable
> > spirit children with his spirit wives. His two 'favorite' spirit sons were
> > Jesus (aka Jehovah, D&C 110; Abra. 2:7-8) and Lucifer. Elohim did not
> > create the mortal form Jehovah assumed while on this earth, rather Elohim
> > procreated with Mary to produce "the literal and personal Son of God the
> > Father" in the words of the late Bruce McConkie, one of the General
> > Authorities within the LDS organization. Citations he gives for the
> > procreation of Jesus are 1 Nephi 11:13-21; Alma 7:10; 2 Nephi 17:14. But
> > the understanding that Elohim took human form as Joseph in order to have
> > sex with Mary is not in the Standard Works but is taught in other sources
> > (e.g. Journal of Discourses 1:50-51).
> >
> > The idea that God "created" Jesus in any ex nihilo sense as he did the
> > universe is a Jehovah's Witness doctrine, not a Mormon one.
> >
> >
> > Respectfully,
> > Stephen Lord
> >
> >
> > >________________________________
> > > From: Chris Maness <chris@...>
> > >To: apologetics@yahoogroups.com
> > >Sent: Tuesday, March 6, 2012 12:34 PM
> > >Subject: [apologetics and theology] Mormon Question
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >Does anyone here know where it is clearly stated in the mormon
> > >scriptures that Jesus was created by God the father? I have a mormon
> > >telling me that they don't teach that. I am sure he is error, but I
> > >would like to quote it from their own scripture.
> > >
> > >Thanks,
> > >Chris Maness
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> >
> > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > Messages in this topic (8)
> > __________________________________________________________
> > 1d. Re: Mormon Question
> > Posted by: "Chris Maness" chris@... kq6up
> > Date: Tue Mar 6, 2012 3:45 pm ((PST))
> >
> > > The idea that God "created" Jesus in any ex nihilo sense as he did the
> > universe is a Jehovah's Witness doctrine, not a Mormon one.
> > >
> > >
> > > Respectfully,
> > > Stephen Lord
> > >
> >
> > Ok, then Greg Koukl is in error. He has stated more than once on his
> > radio show that this is a tactic for witnessing to mormons too. The
> > Mormon scriptures you site are a little creepy. They kind of portray
> > God like a dirty old man looking down on Mary -- just weird.
> >
> > I will have to let Greg know.
> >
> > Do they teach that WE are eternal? Because we are to become
> > equivalent to Christ in our own world that all good mormons will
> > inherit. If we are uncreated, then God did not create us. That
> > clearly goes against Colossians 1:15-17
> >
> > 15 The Son is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all
> > creation. 16 For in him all things were created: things in heaven and
> > on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or powers or rulers
> > or authorities; all things have been created through him and for him.
> > 17 He is before all things, and in him all things hold together.
> >
> > If they teach that we are not eternal, we can not become Gods like
> > their doctrine of devine progression suggest because we can not go
> > from being a created being to a uncreated being (a god).
> >
> > I think this is a major shortcoming and a logical flaw in their
> > doctrine. I did point this out to my friend. I never attack their
> > "prophet" as I believe they are trained and equipped to tune out any
> > criticism of J.S.
> >
> > Thanks,
> > Chris Maness
> >
> > Chris
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > Messages in this topic (8)
> > __________________________________________________________
> > 1e. Re: Mormon Question
> > Posted by: "Alice Robertson" alicerobertson6@...
> > Date: Tue Mar 6, 2012 4:02 pm ((PST))
> >
> > >>>>>Ok, then Greg Koukl is in error. He has stated more than once on his
> > radio show that this is a tactic for witnessing to mormons too. The
> > Mormon scriptures you site are a little creepy. They kind of portray
> > God like a dirty old man looking down on Mary -- just weird.>>>>>>
> >
> > Hi! I just wanted to add that I, too, heard a similar teaching in an
> > Assembly of God church. A Christian psychologist became affiliated with
> > the church (the church quit doing counseling because a few pastors were
> > counseling and liking it so much they had become intimate....conclusion of
> > pastoral staff....no more counseling...and no they did not take pay cuts
> > for less service:). The psychologist was selling videos and very expensive
> > services that most Christians could not afford....answer...use their doctor
> > and your insurance....some became very addicted to legal drugs...one man
> > committed suicide. On one video the psychologist said the Holy Spirit had
> > a sexual encounter with Mary. He said it is the only way to create a child
> > and no man could do it so God let the Holy Spirit do it while Mary
> > ovulated. And worse was the class agreed! I quit the class because those
> > videos were assuming waaaayyyy too much.
> >
> > Just so you know...some Christians are gullible and often the leadership
> > is undiscerning.....that teaching is in the Christian church...but
> > thankfully, not prevalent.
> >
> > God bless, Alice
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > Messages in this topic (8)
> > __________________________________________________________
> > 1f. Re: Mormon Question
> > Posted by: "Ron Parks" ronparks1@... ronparks1378
> > Date: Tue Mar 6, 2012 10:10 pm ((PST))
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > -------Original Message-------
> >
> > From: Chris Maness
> > Date: 3/6/2012 6:45:26 PM
> > To: apologetics@yahoogroups.com
> > Subject: Re: [apologetics and theology] Mormon Question
> >
> >
> > > The idea that God "created" Jesus in any ex nihilo sense as he did the
> > universe is a Jehovah's Witness doctrine, not a Mormon one.
> > >
> > >
> > > Respectfully,
> > > Stephen Lord
> > >
> >
> > Ok, then Greg Koukl is in error. He has stated more than once on his
> > radio show that this is a tactic for witnessing to mormons too. The
> > Mormon scriptures you site are a little creepy. They kind of portray
> > God like a dirty old man looking down on Mary -- just weird.
> >
> > I will have to let Greg know.
> >
> > Do they teach that WE are eternal? Because we are to become
> > equivalent to Christ in our own world that all good mormons will
> > inherit. If we are uncreated, then God did not create us. That
> > Clearly goes against Colossians 1:15-17
> >
> > 15 The Son is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all
> > creation. 16 For in him all things were created: things in heaven and
> > on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or powers or rulers
> > or authorities; all things have been created through him and for him.
> > 17 He is before all things, and in him all things hold together.
> >
> > If they teach that we are not eternal, we can not become Gods like
> > Their doctrine of devine progression suggest because we can not go
> > from being a created being to a uncreated being (a god).
> >
> > I think this is a major shortcoming and a logical flaw in their
> > Doctrine. I did point this out to my Friend. I NEver attack their
> > "prophet" as I believe they are trained and equipped to tune out any
> > Criticism of J.S.
> >
> > Thanks,
> > Chris Maness
> >
> > Chris
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > Messages in this topic (8)
> > __________________________________________________________
> > 1g. Re: Mormon Question
> > Posted by: "Ron Parks" ronparks1@... ronparks1378
> > Date: Tue Mar 6, 2012 10:30 pm ((PST))
> >
> >
> >
> > Somehow, this didn't transmit before...
> > .Yes --- Eternal progression teaches that God was once as we are and we
> > will
> > someday be as he is.
> > Also the Book of Mormon was, supposedly, delivered by the angel Moroni on
> > golden plates. Now look at Gal 1:8. Note that the statement is made twice
> > for emphasis!
> > Personally, I believe that Joseph Smith did receive a revelation from an
> > angel that day. I believe that revelation was due to Joseph Smith's
> > curiosity and delving into ungodly activities such as fortune telling and
> > other spiritualist pursuits.
> > I don't believe that the angels name was really Moroni though. .. But
> > Lucifer can still apear as an "angel of light". .
> > Ron - Western NC
> >
> >
> >
> > -------Original Message-------
> >
> > From: Chris Maness
> > Date: 3/6/2012 6:45:26 PM
> > To: apologetics@yahoogroups.com
> > Subject: Re: [apologetics and theology] Mormon Question
> >
> >
> > > The idea that God "created" Jesus in any ex nihilo sense as he did the
> > universe is a Jehovah's Witness doctrine, not a Mormon one.
> > >
> > >
> > > Respectfully,
> > > Stephen Lord
> > >
> >
> > Ok, then Greg Koukl is in error. He has stated more than once on his
> > radio show that this is a tactic for witnessing to mormons too. The
> > Mormon scriptures you site are a little creepy. They kind of portray
> > God like a dirty old man looking down on Mary -- just weird.
> >
> > I will have to let Greg know.
> >
> > Do they teach that WE are eternal? Because we are to become
> > equivalent to Christ in our own world that all good mormons will
> > inherit. If we are uncreated, then God did not create us. That
> > Clearly goes against Colossians 1:15-17
> >
> > 15 The Son is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all
> > creation. 16 For in him all things were created: things in heaven and
> > on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or powers or rulers
> > or authorities; all things have been created through him and for him.
> > 17 He is before all things, and in him all things hold together.
> >
> > If they teach that we are not eternal, we can not become Gods like
> > Their doctrine of devine progression suggest because we can not go
> > from being a created being to a uncreated being (a god).
> >
> > I think this is a major shortcoming and a logical flaw in their
> > Doctrine. I did point this out to my Friend. I NEver attack their
> > "prophet" as I believe they are trained and equipped to tune out any
> > Criticism of J.S.
> >
> > Thanks,
> > Chris Maness
> >
> > Chris
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > .
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > Messages in this topic (8)
> > __________________________________________________________
> > 1h. Re: Mormon Question
> > Posted by: "Chris Maness" chris@... kq6up
> > Date: Tue Mar 6, 2012 10:48 pm ((PST))
> >
> > Ron, do you see the same logical problems that the doctrine of eternal
> > progression produces? In other words, we can't be like God if we are
> > created, and we can't be God's creatures if we are eternal
> > (uncreated).
> >
> > Chris
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > Messages in this topic (8)
> >
> >
> >
> > Brought to you by Theologically Correct dot Com Ministries.
> > http://theologicallycorrect.com
> > 1 Peter 3:15, Jude 3 - Resources for Christian Living for the Whole Life
> > of the Believer
> >
> > ----------------------------------------------------------
> > Yahoo! Groups Links
> >
> >
> >
> > ----------------------------------------------------------
> >
> >
>
> --
> www.us-entrepreneurs.com
> building community cooperatives
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
>
>
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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Chris

I do know of a source you will find as a great online resource.   It is an
online book by former LDS Bishop Bob Witte entitled Where Does it Say That?  
Here is the link from the Institute for Religious   Research.
http://www.irr.org/mit/wdist/main.html

Rob Lundberg
Director, Stand4Truth.Net
540.424.2305
stand4truthapologetics@...


On Mar 7, 2012, at 5:32 AM, us-entrepreneurs <burkrb99@...> wrote:

> > Hi Chris
> >
> > There are two groups in the world. Christians believe in Christ, as God
> > and others do not. There are only Christians and atheists in the sense that
> > anyone who does not believe in Christ as God is in my book an atheist.
> > Mormons are not Christians in the sense I define Christians. Atheists of
> > all stripes will try and gloss over their rejection of Jesus but however
> > they reject him, unless they are Fundamentalist Christian they ultimately
> > and logically reject the risen Christ.
> >
> >
> >
> > There will be many who argue against this position but from a rational
> > standpoint it is unassailable. The world forces people to choose, to make
> > choices. The ultimate choice is Jesus. As said many people including
> > professing Christians try and gloss over their rejection of Jesus as Christ
> > but our hearts, our choices, our values, betray who we are. We either
> > accept Christ or reject him. Two choices totally irreconcilable.
> >
> >
> >
> > I have a booklet that contains a program of economic development based on
> > a Fundamentalist interpretation of Scripture. It promotes cooperation and
> > penalizes greed and prevents the externalization of costs. Anyone who
> > wishes to learn how to create local development without the use of debt,
> > banks, or government subsidies, using a program ideally suited for
> > Christian small groups provide me with an email and a copy will be sent you.
> >
> >
> >
> Robert
>
> > Does anyone here know where it is clearly stated in the mormon
> > scriptures that Jesus was created by God the father? I have a mormon
> > telling me that they don't teach that. I am sure he is error, but I
> > would like to quote it from their own scripture.
> >
> > Thanks,
> > Chris Maness
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > Messages in this topic (8)
> > __________________________________________________________
> > 1b. Re: Mormon Question
> > Posted by: "Glen Mize" gmize1956@... mizemizemize
> > Date: Tue Mar 6, 2012 10:56 am ((PST))
> >
> > I don't believe it is taught as a Mormon doctrine, definitely part of
> > Jehovah Wittiness doctrine
> >
> > Glen Mize
> >
> > On Tue, Mar 6, 2012 at 12:34 PM, Chris Maness <chris@...>
> > wrote:
> >
> > > **
> > >
> > >
> > > Does anyone here know where it is clearly stated in the mormon
> > > scriptures that Jesus was created by God the father? I have a mormon
> > > telling me that they don't teach that. I am sure he is error, but I
> > > would like to quote it from their own scripture.
> > >
> > > Thanks,
> > > Chris Maness
> > >
> > >
> >
> >
> > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > Messages in this topic (8)
> > __________________________________________________________
> > 1c. Re: Mormon Question
> > Posted by: "Stephen Lord" endeomenos@... endeomenos
> > Date: Tue Mar 6, 2012 2:23 pm ((PST))
> >
> > You will not find the concept that God (Elohim) "created" Jesus in the
> > four standard works of the Utah based LDS--Book of Mormon, Pearl of Great
> > Price, Doctrine and Covenants, and the KJV Bible.
> >
> > Rather, under the overarching doctrine of eternal progression, which is
> > not found in the Four Standard Works, you have Elohim fathering innumerable
> > spirit children with his spirit wives. His two 'favorite' spirit sons were
> > Jesus (aka Jehovah, D&C 110; Abra. 2:7-8) and Lucifer. Elohim did not
> > create the mortal form Jehovah assumed while on this earth, rather Elohim
> > procreated with Mary to produce "the literal and personal Son of God the
> > Father" in the words of the late Bruce McConkie, one of the General
> > Authorities within the LDS organization. Citations he gives for the
> > procreation of Jesus are 1 Nephi 11:13-21; Alma 7:10; 2 Nephi 17:14. But
> > the understanding that Elohim took human form as Joseph in order to have
> > sex with Mary is not in the Standard Works but is taught in other sources
> > (e.g. Journal of Discourses 1:50-51).
> >
> > The idea that God "created" Jesus in any ex nihilo sense as he did the
> > universe is a Jehovah's Witness doctrine, not a Mormon one.
> >
> >
> > Respectfully,
> > Stephen Lord
> >
> >
> > >________________________________
> > > From: Chris Maness <chris@...>
> > >To: apologetics@yahoogroups.com
> > >Sent: Tuesday, March 6, 2012 12:34 PM
> > >Subject: [apologetics and theology] Mormon Question
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >Does anyone here know where it is clearly stated in the mormon
> > >scriptures that Jesus was created by God the father? I have a mormon
> > >telling me that they don't teach that. I am sure he is error, but I
> > >would like to quote it from their own scripture.
> > >
> > >Thanks,
> > >Chris Maness
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> >
> > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > Messages in this topic (8)
> > __________________________________________________________
> > 1d. Re: Mormon Question
> > Posted by: "Chris Maness" chris@... kq6up
> > Date: Tue Mar 6, 2012 3:45 pm ((PST))
> >
> > > The idea that God "created" Jesus in any ex nihilo sense as he did the
> > universe is a Jehovah's Witness doctrine, not a Mormon one.
> > >
> > >
> > > Respectfully,
> > > Stephen Lord
> > >
> >
> > Ok, then Greg Koukl is in error. He has stated more than once on his
> > radio show that this is a tactic for witnessing to mormons too. The
> > Mormon scriptures you site are a little creepy. They kind of portray
> > God like a dirty old man looking down on Mary -- just weird.
> >
> > I will have to let Greg know.
> >
> > Do they teach that WE are eternal? Because we are to become
> > equivalent to Christ in our own world that all good mormons will
> > inherit. If we are uncreated, then God did not create us. That
> > clearly goes against Colossians 1:15-17
> >
> > 15 The Son is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all
> > creation. 16 For in him all things were created: things in heaven and
> > on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or powers or rulers
> > or authorities; all things have been created through him and for him.
> > 17 He is before all things, and in him all things hold together.
> >
> > If they teach that we are not eternal, we can not become Gods like
> > their doctrine of devine progression suggest because we can not go
> > from being a created being to a uncreated being (a god).
> >
> > I think this is a major shortcoming and a logical flaw in their
> > doctrine. I did point this out to my friend. I never attack their
> > "prophet" as I believe they are trained and equipped to tune out any
> > criticism of J.S.
> >
> > Thanks,
> > Chris Maness
> >
> > Chris
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > Messages in this topic (8)
> > __________________________________________________________
> > 1e. Re: Mormon Question
> > Posted by: "Alice Robertson" alicerobertson6@...
> > Date: Tue Mar 6, 2012 4:02 pm ((PST))
> >
> > >>>>>Ok, then Greg Koukl is in error. He has stated more than once on his
> > radio show that this is a tactic for witnessing to mormons too. The
> > Mormon scriptures you site are a little creepy. They kind of portray
> > God like a dirty old man looking down on Mary -- just weird.>>>>>>
> >
> > Hi! I just wanted to add that I, too, heard a similar teaching in an
> > Assembly of God church. A Christian psychologist became affiliated with
> > the church (the church quit doing counseling because a few pastors were
> > counseling and liking it so much they had become intimate....conclusion of
> > pastoral staff....no more counseling...and no they did not take pay cuts
> > for less service:). The psychologist was selling videos and very expensive
> > services that most Christians could not afford....answer...use their doctor
> > and your insurance....some became very addicted to legal drugs...one man
> > committed suicide. On one video the psychologist said the Holy Spirit had
> > a sexual encounter with Mary. He said it is the only way to create a child
> > and no man could do it so God let the Holy Spirit do it while Mary
> > ovulated. And worse was the class agreed! I quit the class because those
> > videos were assuming waaaayyyy too much.
> >
> > Just so you know...some Christians are gullible and often the leadership
> > is undiscerning.....that teaching is in the Christian church...but
> > thankfully, not prevalent.
> >
> > God bless, Alice
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > Messages in this topic (8)
> > __________________________________________________________
> > 1f. Re: Mormon Question
> > Posted by: "Ron Parks" ronparks1@... ronparks1378
> > Date: Tue Mar 6, 2012 10:10 pm ((PST))
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > -------Original Message-------
> >
> > From: Chris Maness
> > Date: 3/6/2012 6:45:26 PM
> > To: apologetics@yahoogroups.com
> > Subject: Re: [apologetics and theology] Mormon Question
> >
> >
> > > The idea that God "created" Jesus in any ex nihilo sense as he did the
> > universe is a Jehovah's Witness doctrine, not a Mormon one.
> > >
> > >
> > > Respectfully,
> > > Stephen Lord
> > >
> >
> > Ok, then Greg Koukl is in error. He has stated more than once on his
> > radio show that this is a tactic for witnessing to mormons too. The
> > Mormon scriptures you site are a little creepy. They kind of portray
> > God like a dirty old man looking down on Mary -- just weird.
> >
> > I will have to let Greg know.
> >
> > Do they teach that WE are eternal? Because we are to become
> > equivalent to Christ in our own world that all good mormons will
> > inherit. If we are uncreated, then God did not create us. That
> > Clearly goes against Colossians 1:15-17
> >
> > 15 The Son is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all
> > creation. 16 For in him all things were created: things in heaven and
> > on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or powers or rulers
> > or authorities; all things have been created through him and for him.
> > 17 He is before all things, and in him all things hold together.
> >
> > If they teach that we are not eternal, we can not become Gods like
> > Their doctrine of devine progression suggest because we can not go
> > from being a created being to a uncreated being (a god).
> >
> > I think this is a major shortcoming and a logical flaw in their
> > Doctrine. I did point this out to my Friend. I NEver attack their
> > "prophet" as I believe they are trained and equipped to tune out any
> > Criticism of J.S.
> >
> > Thanks,
> > Chris Maness
> >
> > Chris
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > Messages in this topic (8)
> > __________________________________________________________
> > 1g. Re: Mormon Question
> > Posted by: "Ron Parks" ronparks1@... ronparks1378
> > Date: Tue Mar 6, 2012 10:30 pm ((PST))
> >
> >
> >
> > Somehow, this didn't transmit before...
> > .Yes --- Eternal progression teaches that God was once as we are and we
> > will
> > someday be as he is.
> > Also the Book of Mormon was, supposedly, delivered by the angel Moroni on
> > golden plates. Now look at Gal 1:8. Note that the statement is made twice
> > for emphasis!
> > Personally, I believe that Joseph Smith did receive a revelation from an
> > angel that day. I believe that revelation was due to Joseph Smith's
> > curiosity and delving into ungodly activities such as fortune telling and
> > other spiritualist pursuits.
> > I don't believe that the angels name was really Moroni though. .. But
> > Lucifer can still apear as an "angel of light". .
> > Ron - Western NC
> >
> >
> >
> > -------Original Message-------
> >
> > From: Chris Maness
> > Date: 3/6/2012 6:45:26 PM
> > To: apologetics@yahoogroups.com
> > Subject: Re: [apologetics and theology] Mormon Question
> >
> >
> > > The idea that God "created" Jesus in any ex nihilo sense as he did the
> > universe is a Jehovah's Witness doctrine, not a Mormon one.
> > >
> > >
> > > Respectfully,
> > > Stephen Lord
> > >
> >
> > Ok, then Greg Koukl is in error. He has stated more than once on his
> > radio show that this is a tactic for witnessing to mormons too. The
> > Mormon scriptures you site are a little creepy. They kind of portray
> > God like a dirty old man looking down on Mary -- just weird.
> >
> > I will have to let Greg know.
> >
> > Do they teach that WE are eternal? Because we are to become
> > equivalent to Christ in our own world that all good mormons will
> > inherit. If we are uncreated, then God did not create us. That
> > Clearly goes against Colossians 1:15-17
> >
> > 15 The Son is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all
> > creation. 16 For in him all things were created: things in heaven and
> > on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or powers or rulers
> > or authorities; all things have been created through him and for him.
> > 17 He is before all things, and in him all things hold together.
> >
> > If they teach that we are not eternal, we can not become Gods like
> > Their doctrine of devine progression suggest because we can not go
> > from being a created being to a uncreated being (a god).
> >
> > I think this is a major shortcoming and a logical flaw in their
> > Doctrine. I did point this out to my Friend. I NEver attack their
> > "prophet" as I believe they are trained and equipped to tune out any
> > Criticism of J.S.
> >
> > Thanks,
> > Chris Maness
> >
> > Chris
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > .
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > Messages in this topic (8)
> > __________________________________________________________
> > 1h. Re: Mormon Question
> > Posted by: "Chris Maness" chris@... kq6up
> > Date: Tue Mar 6, 2012 10:48 pm ((PST))
> >
> > Ron, do you see the same logical problems that the doctrine of eternal
> > progression produces? In other words, we can't be like God if we are
> > created, and we can't be God's creatures if we are eternal
> > (uncreated).
> >
> > Chris
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > Messages in this topic (8)
> >
> >
> >
> > Brought to you by Theologically Correct dot Com Ministries.
> > http://theologicallycorrect.com
> > 1 Peter 3:15, Jude 3 - Resources for Christian Living for the Whole Life
> > of the Believer
> >
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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Chris,

Yes I do.  That doctrine will not stand...logically or scripturally.
Mormons, however, are taught to ignore facts, logic and even scripture when
they do not support their doctrine.  The book of Mormon describes a people
(American Indians)  who were the lost tribe of Israel and has them on
horseback  at a time before horses appear in North America.  They came to
the Americas much later.  Also the DNA can now show that the American
Indians are of Asian decent.  The Mormons just say God confused the fossil
record and the DNA.   I have seen a few Mormons saved and those few are
amazing witnesses but most are firmly intrenched.  They say "a burning in
their bosom" is evidence of the truth.

Ron - Western NC


-------Original Message-------

From: Chris Maness
Date: 03/07/12 01:48:23
To: apologetics@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [apologetics and theology] Mormon Question


Ron, do you see the same logical problems that the doctrine of eternal
progression produces? In other words, we can't be like God if we are
created, and we can't be God's creatures if we are eternal
(uncreated).

Chris




[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

"Do they teach that WE are eternal?"

It's a bit complicated.� Individuals are not eternal in the sense of having no
beginning.� Rather, the spirit being we call "God" is Elohim, who lives on a
planet called Kolob which is so large it takes 1,000 earth years to rotate on
its axis once (a "day" there equals 1000 years here).� Elohim was once a man of
flesh and blood who progressed to the purer state of spirit being.� With his
many spirit wives he reproduced spirit children (us) who must undergo a mortal
"internship" in physical bodies before going on to a higher plane of spiritual
existence wherein we become like Elohim and "God" to some other planet we govern
and populate with our spiritual offspring through our spiritual wives for their
mortal internship.

So in that sense, you are not eternal.� You had a beginning prior to your mortal
existence.

However, again according to McConkie, the spiritual stuff Elohim and our
pre-existent souls are made of is a more refined form of matter than the coarse
stuff that makes up the physical universe.� This more refined form of matter is
self-existent because Elohim and our spiritual bodies (which are finite) had to
have come from somewhere.� So "creation" was the re-organization of this
self-existent spirit matter in to finite bodies.


If you detect some parallels with Eastern Religions (such as the wheel of
existence in Hinduism) and Gnosticism, you would not be far off the mark.

There are three "Heavens" in LDS teaching.� There is no "Hell" properly
speaking.� Rather, bad folk will be resurrected to the Telestial Kingdom, living
a life not much different from this one.� Good non-Mormons and Jack Mormons
receive an inheritance in the Terrestrial Kingdom, a nicer place than here, all
the bad folk being gone, but they are not able to marry.� The Celestial Kingdom
is for those good Mormons who have been faithful in Temple ceremonies and have
been sealed in the Temple for eternity.� They are the ones who go on to become
gods of their own planets with their own harem of spiritual wives.


Sources:
Bruce R. McConkie Mormon Doctrine 2nd ed. (Salt Lake City:� Bookcraft, 1979) sv.
"Man," "Mortality," "Pre-Existence," "Eternal Progression."� [McConkie served in
the Quorum of the Twelve Apostles from 1972 until his death in 1985.]


Pearl of Great Price, Moses 3:5-7; Abraham 3:22-28

Doctrine and Covenants 93

Respectfully,
Stephen Lord


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Friends,
Many of you know more about Africa than I could possibly know, sitting down
here in small-town Texas.  This campaign to capture Joseph Kony is now viral
on the internet, but the only information I can get (including the 30-minute
video, which is extremely powerful) comes from left-wing websites or blogs.
Can you tell me if it's legitimate, or is there a political agenda behind
it?
Obviously, Kony can't play nicely in this world, and needs to be sent to
another one.  And I know that Uganda is one of the darkest places on earth.
That much is clear.  But who is really behind this particular group, and
what will be done with the contributions they are soliciting?  I just can't
tell so far.
If you're not aware of the KONY 2012 movement yet, you will be within a few
days.  Feel free to hold your replies until you are up to speed with this
thing.  It's all happening so fast, I find it kind of scary....I found out
about it in a text message that my granddaughter sent home from school
today.
Here's a link (to the Huffington Post, of all places) that will get you
started, if you're not already conversant with the thing:
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/michael-geheren/post_3074_b_1326942.html
In His Grip,
Chuck


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

>Elohim was once a man of flesh and blood who progressed to the purer state of
spirit being.

>Since, Elohim once was man, do they think he was created?  I think this seems
to go back >to an infinite regression.  Because they are going to say that he
was created from another >God before him out of eternal existing "matter."

If they say that our spirits exist before our bodies are formed then
who created our spirits?  If they say they are eternal, then God is
not the creator of human beings.


>
> So in that sense, you are not eternal.� You had a beginning prior to your
mortal existence.
>

Ok, here is where I have an issue.  If they say that we are not
eternal then turn around and say Jesus IS eternal, they contradict
themselves by saying that we will become JUST like Jesus when we
inherit our own planet.  We cannot be like Jesus because Jesus' spirit
is self existing and uncaused according to Col 1:15.  He is God the
son -- the second person in the Holy Trinity.  If they say that Jesus
is created then

> However, again according to McConkie, the spiritual stuff Elohim and our
pre-existent souls are made of is a more refined form of matter than the coarse
stuff that makes up the physical universe.� This more refined form of matter is
self-existent because Elohim and our spiritual bodies (which are finite) had to
have come from somewhere.� So "creation" was the re-organization of this
self-existent spirit matter in to finite bodies.
>
>
> If you detect some parallels with Eastern Religions (such as the wheel of
existence in Hinduism) and Gnosticism, you would not be far off the mark.
>

Yes, I thought to myself "this is pantheism" when I read your paragraph above.

Thanks, Stephen.  It sounds like they don't take a position either
way.  However, I think I can point out that their doctrine of eternal
progression is logically incoherent.  That is -- one can't be created
AND be God.  For God (by definition) is eternal and the creator and
author of all things.  That is what Col 1:15-23 teaches so very
clearly, and I have not met a Mormon that wants to contradict Col
1:15-23.  They just kind of shrug their shoulders.

Regards,
Chris Maness

I’ve recently heard about a committed Christian who tried and fortunately in
my view, failed to commit suicide.

From my understanding of God and our Lord Jesus Christ, the biblical scriptures
and the boundless promises of God, I cannot understand how any “Born Again”
committed Christian can even consider this action. I realise this is a very
emotional and emotive subject and a very subjective one, but it bothers me
greatly.

Apparently, it was considered that the person concerned would be forgiven there
action and taken home to sit with Jesus, even though the person concerned had
ended his/her life prematurely. Surely all life is sacred and a gift of God,
therefore, to throw it away prematurely is as good as saying something like:

“This life is lousy. You are unjust. I don’t want to suffer that which you
judge me to be worthy to carry, because of your love and mercy, you will accept
my decision and forgive me.” and so on.

Is it selfishness? Is it a misconception of what life with God is all about? Is
it escapism of the worst kind? Perhaps the most important question of all is, is
it a forgiveable sin? I personally haven’t found anything in the scriptures to
support the thought that suicide if justified or acceptable to God. Surely, if
someone can’t find the courage to complete the race, as Paul puts it, then why
should God or Jesus make exceptions?

Is there a wiser man or woman out there who can give me some guidance on this
dreadful subject. I suspect many people want to ask this question, but, may be
they are apprehensive about doing so, for fear of being vilified.

Incidentally, I would personally never commit such a sad action, since I want to
be with our Lord, when the time comes and He considers my time is right.


Yours in the love and fellowship of jesus,


Geoff

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

What Type of relationship are you in?
Many people are in different relationships. Some of you have boyfriends who beat
you either with words or hands and others have women who are televisions and
radios; they yap and nag all
day long. Are those good relationships? Others have friends in benefits
while others have only giving but never taking anything. Behold I
introduce to you the different relationships. I will describe the different
types and let you see which one you are in and which one is the best.

Cont:
http://princehamilton.blogspot.com/2009/04/what-type-of-relationship-are-you-in.\
html

 
"Life is like a mysterious highway. At times we bypass those who would have made
us happy on the other side of the road either because of our hyperopia or
myopia" (Hamilton Ayuk).
"Those who fight against men of God easily become painted sepulchers in
history’s handbag" (Hamilton Ayuk).
"When ugly and beauty become synonyms then pulchritude is the master of the
individual" (Hamilton Ayuk).

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Should Family And Relatives Override A Husband’s Decision?  

On November 26, 2010, a wife delivered a child: Kupakwashe Kachanga. Rather than
bring them joy and respect from the community,
the child became an albatross that fetched them obloguy. It happened
that the child had all Chinese physiognomy as a result of the wife:
Anywhere Ngezy (20 years) cheating on her husband: Bright Kachanga (24)
with her Chinese boss: Lung Fanlihong.  The neighbors and family wanted
Bright to lapidate the wife, but he instead forgave her and carried
their anger. His simple arguments were that he had spent too much on the child
to let the child suffer now in no mistake of his. The question is “should and
does the family have any moral obligation to reject his
forgiveness.” This problem raises serious societal issues, biblical
polemics and psychological can of worms. Shouldn’t the husband’s
decision be res judicata?

Cont: http://princehamilton.blogspot.com/

 
"Life is like a mysterious highway. At times we bypass those who would have made
us happy on the other side of the road either because of our hyperopia or
myopia" (Hamilton Ayuk).
"Those who fight against men of God easily become painted sepulchers in
history’s handbag" (Hamilton Ayuk).
"When ugly and beauty become synonyms then pulchritude is the master of the
individual" (Hamilton Ayuk).

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Greetings,

The UFO cults are dangerous threats to our young people. There are many UFO
  shows on TV that spread this deception. The Bible predicts that in the
end-times, just before the second coming of Christ,  there will  be many
deceptions and much activity in the paranormal.


A TV show about UFOs opens with a dramatic animation of an  alleged UFO
crash into a windmill on a farm in Aurora Texas way back in April,  1897. The
crash is called "Texas's Roswell" and the  show presents sober faced experts
who buy into it being the crash of a spaceship  from another planet. In this
article, we'll discuss this Texas crash hoax  and we'll take a look at
other UFO phenomena.

There is, as you know, a huge movement of people who study,  investigate
and "hunt" UFOs. Implicit in this interest in UFOs is the assumption  that
UFOs somehow hold the key to the solution of humankind's problems. Some of  the
most zealous UFO hunters believe that UFOs can bring world peace or bring
the long sought utopia that communism failed to produce. Other UFO
enthusiasts  admit that something sinister is going on.

The History Channel, with its  "Ancient Aliens", "UFO Hunters" and  "UFO
Files" TV shows, strongly promotes the UFO,  extra-terrestrial hypothesis. To
be fair, they do occasionally present some  dissenting experts who dismiss
or minimize the extra-terrestrial view. The  extraterrestrial hypothesis is
the claim that UFOs are metal  spaceships from other planets. The
interdimensional hypothesis  is very different in that it claims that UFOs are
spirit
beings who come from  another dimension and are not physical beings of our
material world. Virtually  all Christian researchers consider UFOs to be
interdimensional and to be  manifestations of demons.

The Bible calls interdimensional beings "spirits," "angels" or  "demons."
The Bible gives many examples of good and evil spirits affecting the
physical world even though spirits are not physical beings and are usually
invisible. A good example of this is in Acts 12:7-10 in which an angel appeared 
to
Peter and "a light shined in the prison" and  Peter's chains "fell off."
The passage goes on to say  that when Peter approached the prison gate, it
opened by itself which means it  was opened by an invisible angel. There are
many other examples in the  Bible of spirits affecting the material world such
as Isaiah 37:36 in which  a spirit being killed a large number of enemy
soldiers.

UFOs often manifest as lights in the sky and they affect the  physical
world by causing animal mutilations and crop circles. The History  Channel, "UFO
Hunters" TV show did one entire, hour long  episode on animal mutilations.
It showed cattle that had been mutilated with  body parts cut off with
surgical precision. The show pointed out that there have  been literally
thousands of instances of animal mutilations all over the world.  Demon spirits
can
cut animal flesh.

Cattle and other domesticated animals have had sex organs  removed, the
tongue removed, blood drained, "rectal coring," the heart removed,  etc. In
these cases, no blood is seen on the ground and there are no tracks of  man or
animal leading up to the carcasses. In some cases,  people nearby had seen
lights in the sky in the areas where mutilated  carcasses were later found.

Animal mutilations were so common in the western US in the 1970s  that two
senators wrote to the FBI to get their assistance in solving these  bizarre
occurrences. Ranchers were losing big money and were arming themselves  to
defend their herds and families.

No human being has ever been seen doing animal mutilations or  arrested for
this. No satanic cult has ever claimed responsibility for animal
mutilations of this type. The History Channel TV shows did an excellent job of
documenting the animal mutilation problem but they persisted in implicitly
backing the claim that extraterrestrial metal spaceships rather than  demons are
involved.

Crop circles, which were common in England decades ago but have  frequently
occurred in many other countries, also destroy farmer's property. Two
elderly men stepped forward in England and claimed responsibility but the  men
were deemed incapable of producing the extremely complex symmetrical
patterns in the fields. Crop circles occur in many countries besides  England
and
no naturalistic explanation is generally accepted.

Why would demons mutilate animals and destroy crops? Firstly, I  don't
think demons are very rational. Secondly, I think that demons hate flesh.
Christ overcame demons in the flesh. That is to say that when Christ came as a
man of flesh and suffered and died on the cross, he took the penalty of our
sins  upon Himself and thus redeemed all people. Demons hate people and it
can be  inferred that demons hate all flesh of this physical world. It's not
surprising that demons would attack animals. Such acts impoverish and
terrorize  farmers. To me, there is no mystery about animal mutilations and crop
circles,  they are demonic.

Now regarding the alleged UFO crashes. The History Channel TV  shows go to
great lengths to show example after example of alleged UFO crashes  and
government cover ups. At least two of the shows discuss the Aurora Texas UFO
crash which allegedly occurred on April 18, 1897. This alleged  crash is so
discredited by secular researchers, it's hard to  imagine why the History
Channel UFO team would even consider it.  The Aurora incident claims that a UFO
hit a windmill and crashed on a ranch near  Aurora, Texas.

I don't believe that the evidence validates the claim that a  metal
spaceship was involved but if one was, you'd have to  assume an interstellar
spaceship would have technology far beyond  our own. Can you imagine a spaceship
capable of interstellar travel, composed of  hyper-sophisticated nano-tech
materials, using cold fusion or antigravity as a  source of power hitting a
lowly windmill and breaking up!? Then there was no  attempt by other
spaceships to recover the lost spacecraft and  the body of the dead pilot in
Aurora,
Texas!

The UFO TV shows claim that many alleged UFO  crashes occurred in the
former Soviet Union. One segment presents the  far-fetched claim that a MIG
fighter jet, in 1948, shot down a UFO by  somehow "removing the anti-gravity
envelope" from the UFO! They interviewed  people in Russia who claim that UFO
crashes occurred there. Again, no mention of  any attempt by the aliens to
recover their lost craft.

The UFO shows play up the widely discredited Roswell, New Mexico  UFO crash
of 1947. They interview people who make the outlandish claim that the
Roswell UFO vehicle and many other alleged UFO crashed vehicles and alien
bodies were transported to an underground facility at Wright Patterson Air Force
Base near Dayton Ohio. They interviewed people who claim that the US is
reverse engineering UFO technology.

They interviewed retired Lt. Col. Philip Corso and discussed his  claim
that Kevlar, Night vision goggles, lasers and other high  tech products were
reverse engineered from the Roswell crashed  vehicle. To their credit, the UFO
TV show went on to interview several high  tech experts who refuted Corso
point by point. Thank God there's a limit to  the History Channel's
gullibility!

The whole "UFO crash" belief system seems to be a bizarre theory  without
hard evidence. No crumpled flying saucer has been brought out.  It's like the
claim that George Bush arranged for the destruction of the World  Trade
Center on 9/11. It's absurd.

If spaceships came from distant planets they wouldn't crash with  any
frequency. They would be composed of nano-tech steel that is built atom by  atom
to have far more strength than our modern steel. Such steel would not break
up or if it did it would only do so at such high speed as to obliterate all
  bodies inside. The bodies from at least one of the alleged  crashes were
claimed to have "burned" as if the craft had jet fuel and was  powered by
combustion!

The UFO shows contain a parade of deceptions and the shows are  highly
biased to the extraterrestrial, metal spaceship view. I'm convinced that  the
evidence presented on the shows can be explained either as hoaxes of  deluded
people or by the actions of interdimensional spirit beings which  the Bible
calls devils or demons. The UFO crashes appear to be hoaxes and the
mutilations and crop circles appear to be demonic activity or what could be 
called
demonic miracles.


Now regarding alleged UFO abductions, I believe  these "abductions" are
demonic visions imparted to people. People are given  visions of being taken
aboard a spacecraft when no such spacecraft exists in the  physical world. The
Bible gives at least one example of a spirit giving a  vision. An example
of such a vision is in Luke 4:5. In this verse,  which is during the
temptation of Christ, it says that the  devil showed Jesus all the kingdoms of
the
world in a moment of time.  We can infer that this was by some type of vision.


The bottom line is that we have to be aware of the new UFO  religion and
the paranormal, demonic miracles associated with it. Let's be  prepared to
defend our young people from being led astray by this end  time deception.


The end time battle for the souls of people will be a war of  miracles. As
we read in the Bible in Revelation 13:13-14 "And  he doeth great wonders, so
that he maketh fire come down from heaven on the  earth in the sight of
men, And deceiveth them that dwell on the earth by the  means of those miracles
which he had power to do in the sight of the  beast." This is a predictive
prophecy showing how the coming  antichrist will be accredited by apparent
miracles.

In my DTF article #213 titled "The Religion With the  Best Miracles Wins" I
show that the biblical Christian faith has the  greatest miracles of any of
the world's religions. Christianity has more  healings, better healings,
more predictive prophecies fulfilled, better  predictive prophecies fulfilled
than any other faith. The  Christian miracles that occur in every generation
since Christ's coming,  serve to prove the truth of the fact that Jesus is
the promised Messiah of  Israel and He shall come again to rule and reign on
the earth.


Jesus came in fulfillment of over 300 predictive prophecies that  were
written in the Old Testament hundreds of years before His birth. Jesus
convinced His followers by "many infallible proofs"  (Acts 1:3). When Jesus
suffered
and died on the cross He took the penalty of our  sins upon Himself, thus
making atonement. Turn to Christ today to receive  forgiveness of sins.

-Bill in NY



Steps to  salvation:
Jesus said "Ye must be born  again." (John 3:7)
1) Believe that God created you and  loves you and sent the Messiah
(Messiah is Hebrew for Christ) to redeem  you.
2) Believe that Jesus the Messiah came in fulfillment of over 300  Bible
prophecies to die for you and take upon Himself the penalty of your  sins.
(Isaiah 53:5-6, John 6:29, Romans 4:5, First Peter 3:18)
3) Turn  from sin and call on the name of Jesus to receive forgiveness.
(Romans  10:13)
4) Receive Jesus as Savior and experience the new birth. (John  1:12, Acts
2:38)
5) Follow Him as Lord. (John 14:21)


Prayer to receive  salvation:
"Whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall  be saved" (Romans
10:13)
To receive the salvation that Jesus  purchased for you at the terrible cost
of His suffering and death on your  behalf I invite you to pray this simple
prayer: "Dear heavenly Father, I thank you  for sending Jesus, the promised
Messiah, to die for my sins. I admit that I am a  sinner. I repent of my
sins and I ask for your forgiveness on the basis of  the death and
resurrection of Jesus Christ. I ask you to fill me with your Holy  Spirit to
empower me
to serve you under the Lordship of Jesus Christ, Amen."





If you prayed that prayer in the humble sincerity of  your heart then you
have received everlasting life, which includes power to live  right in this
life and entrance into heaven in the  afterlife!

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

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Hash: SHA1

Pada tanggal Sat, 31 Mar 2012 15:02:03 -0400 (EDT), B1E1Nugent@...
menulis email dengan judul ([apologetics and theology] UFO end time
deception):

> Why would demons mutilate animals and destroy crops?

Assuming they are/do (a big assumption) i imagine the reason to be
quite obvious.

Fear .

Nothing is scarier to the human mind than random unpredictable events.

IW
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Dear Geof,
sorry for such a delayed anwser for your question SEEKING ANWSERS. It was
because i thought somebody else from the group would give a better explanation.
Let us take an example from the bible, Peter and Judas. Both of them were in a
crisis at the time of crucification of Jesus. Judas had betrayed his master in
spite of Jesus warning him. He might have thought that Jesus with such super
natural power can  escape from the jews. But to his surprise Jesus was
crucified. The guilt depressed him. He could have turned to Jesus himself, but
did not. So he commited suicide.
In  case of Peter, he too did a grave mistake. Inspite of specific warning from
Jesus, he rejected Jesus. But Peter remembered the warning and repented. At the
time of his repentence everything has turned upside down. His master whome he
followed for 3 years was in chains, his claims of kingdom in shatters, all his
dreams come to an end. But during crises he hung on and was saved and Judas
lost. Please ask your friend to depend on Jes

Hello Frens Jose,

Thank you for making an attempt to answer my question.

I realise that there are few people who will not voice their opinions on the
subject, for the fear of others strong reactions, because of the emotional
responses this subject often provokes. This is what happened when I attempted to
answer the same question myself.

I believe, rightly or wrongly, that it is one of the unforgiveable sins to throw
the gift of life away, as this always brings to my mind 2 PT. 2:20-22;
20 For if, after they have escaped the defilements of the world by the knowledge
of the Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, they are again entangled in them and are
overcome, the last state has become worse for them than the first.
21 For it would be better for them not to have known the way of righteousness,
than having known it, to turn away from the holy commandment handed on to them.
22 It has happened to them according to the true proverb, "A DOG RETURNS TO ITS
OWN VOMIT," and, "A sow, after washing, returns to wallowing in the mire."

Let me ask the question in a different way. If they take their own life whilst
their mind is disturbed and unbalanced by depression or fear, will God and our
Lord Jesus condemn and reject them or will He wave His hand and say, “I
understand. You through life away but, I know why. Come in anyway.” Doesn’t
that suggest that we can throw life away at any time, just because we’ve had
enough of this world and want to be home with Him sooner, rather than Jesus’
choosing? That seems a little rough and unjust on those of us who want to do the
will of Jesus in our lives.

When I took this view, I was told that I should have a little more compassion
and understanding. I hadn’t judged or condemned, nor do I condemn my friend,
who hasn’t spoken to me since, but I wanted to steer my friend away from such
action.

Does my response make me hard, uncompassionate and uncaring? I don’t think so.
I conceed that I might be wrong in my interpretation of scripture, so I ask the
question of men and women who know their bible and the doctrines better than I
do.

Any clarification will be welcome.


Geoff


From: frens jose
Sent: Tuesday, April 03, 2012 3:14 AM
To: apologetics@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re:: [apologetics and theology] Seeking Answers.



Dear Geof,
sorry for such a delayed anwser for your question SEEKING ANWSERS. It was
because i thought somebody else from the group would give a better explanation.
Let us take an example from the bible, Peter and Judas. Both of them were in a
crisis at the time of crucification of Jesus. Judas had betrayed his master in
spite of Jesus warning him. He might have thought that Jesus with such super
natural power can escape from the jews. But to his surprise Jesus was crucified.
The guilt depressed him. He could have turned to Jesus himself, but did not. So
he commited suicide.
In case of Peter, he too did a grave mistake. Inspite of specific warning from
Jesus, he rejected Jesus. But Peter remembered the warning and repented. At the
time of his repentence everything has turned upside down. His master whome he
followed for 3 years was in chains, his claims of kingdom in shatters, all his
dreams come to an end. But during crises he hung on and was saved and Judas
lost. Please ask your friend to depend on Jes



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Geoff,

I have been holding off addressing this question because I'm not sure how much
time I can devote to it.

First, some background. �I grew up in a somewhat violent home. �When I was 17,
my younger brother (age 13) and older sister had both fled the home. �That left
me. �I was tired of being bullied, tired of backing down from my father. �We had
a fight. �I was given an ultimatum: �apologize by the morning, or take what I
could carry and be out on the streets. �I spent the better part of the night
looking down the barrel of my rifle, bullet in chamber. �Obviously, I did not
pull the trigger, decided I could not do that to my mother who had already
"lost" her other two children because of this man. �Over the years I've had to
deal with suicides among close friends. �The most recent was a couple years ago.
�He was our neighbor and a member of the church where I was pastoring. �He was a
Vietnam vet diagnosed with Post-traumatic Stress Disorder as well as recovering
from prostate cancer. �He was in treatment at the local VA--medications,
occasional
  hospitalizations, counseling sessions, group therapy. �His final morning he had
been to a group therapy session, then came home and hung himself. �I'm the one
who cut him down from the rafters.

For the record, I will do everything in my power to prevent a suicide.

I would not say your views are "hard," so much as I would say they are naive and
simplistic. �Yes, on some level suicide is "selfish"--not taking in to
consideration the mess (spiritually, emotionally, and physically) that you leave
behind for others to deal with. �Yes, suicide is often an act of "hopelessness"
which on one level says your problems are too difficult for even God to handle.
�But there is more to it than that. �Suicide is a complex issue.

There are various "reasons" people both contemplate and commit suicide. �Some
are just weary. �Some are angry. �Some are mentally ill, and so on. �(Too often
people forget that the brain is a physical organ, like the heart, the lungs, the
liver; when it is traumatized the symptoms are mental, emotional, behavioral
issues. �There should be no more stigma to mental illness than there is for
asthma, high cholesterol, or a broken arm.) �There are even some medications
given for depression that actually have as a side effect inducing suicidal
tendencies. �So if you're on a medication and have an adverse reaction to it
that induces suicidal tendencies, how is that your "fault" any more than having
an allergic reaction to some other kind of medication?

Clinical Depression is not a silly mood swing people can snap out of, it is a
genuine mental illness, a sign the organ of the brain is damaged in some area.

It is virtually impossible for you or me to get inside the head and heart of a
person who has reached a level of mental and spiritual anguish and disturbance
to know how clear and competent was their thinking at the time they killed
themselves. �There is only One Being who can determine their mental state.

What you and I can do, and have the authority to do, is pull out all the stops
with someone who is manifesting suicidal tendencies, get them the spiritual and
psychological and medical help they need. �Love them, demonstrate to them that
they do matter, people do care, they will be missed, the world would not be a
better place in their absence. �"Reason" with them to the extent that is
possible. �Report them to the authorities. �Pray for them and with them. �Share
God's love with them, show them from the Word how much God cares for them. �Help
them with whatever problems are "drowning" them to the point they can't see a
way out. �Recently challenges were just piling up on my little brother, a
non-Christian in his mid-40s. �Medical problems. �Relationship problems.
�Financial problems. �Legal problems. �It reached a point he could no longer
"breathe," he couldn't function, he couldn't see any light at the end of the
tunnel. �He cried out and
  we came running, pulling off some of the load that was burying him so that he
could function again, get breathing room. �He's doing much better, has a long
way to go, but is not feeling the despair and hopelessness of a few months ago.

What you and I cannot do because we do not have the authority to do so is
pronounce final judgment on the soul of a person who has taken their life. �We
are not omniscient. �We don't know all the factors, whether there were
undiagnosed medical issues, etc. �Only God is capable of determining whether a
person was clear-minded and culpable or suffering some trauma that altered their
brain chemistry and short-circuited their judgment center. �I have a 26 year old
niece who is mentally a 2 year old, severe CP and other issues. �She's been
known to take things that don't belong to her. � Is she going to Hell as a
thief?

My friend who suffered PTSD as well as other mental issues long associated with
certain kinds of cancer knew he had a problem. �We talked and studied and prayed
often together. �He sought psychiatric and psychological care. �He fought this
impulse over the course of decades (complicated by survivor's guilt--only man in
his platoon to come back from a patrol alive, the rest were butchered). �In
spite of all those efforts on his part, he lost the internal battle with this
mental cancer.

So do what you can to get help for a suicidal person, but we shouldn't overstep
our authority and pronounce final judgment in these complex matters.
�

Respectfully,
Stephen Lord

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Hello Stephen,

Thank you for writing such a detailed answer to my questions.

Firstly, please accept that I did not condemn my friend, nor did I pronounce
judgement upon him. As you rightly ask, who am I to make any pronouncement.

Secondly, I understand about the brain being a physical organ, like the heart,
like the stomach ETC. I have medical tgraining, which gives me some
understanding how the body works, although, not a specialised knowledge of the
brain, but The genderal principles are known to me.

Lastly, I have taken a copy of your email to study a little more deeply, and
will write a more considered answer later. I hope that meets with your agreement
and approval?

I agree that I am unknowledgeable and lack experience in the subject, hence the
reason I sought advice and some guideance from those who I thought might have
more knowledge, particularly in the light of the scriptures.


Yours in fellowship,


Geoff

From: Stephen Lord
Sent: Wednesday, April 04, 2012 7:52 PM
To: apologetics@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [apologetics and theology] Seeking Answers.


Geoff,

I have been holding off addressing this question because I'm not sure how much
time I can devote to it.

First, some background.  I grew up in a somewhat violent home.  When I was 17,
my younger brother (age 13) and older sister had both fled the home.  That left
me.  I was tired of being bullied, tired of backing down from my father.  We had
a fight.  I was given an ultimatum:  apologize by the morning, or take what I
could carry and be out on the streets.  I spent the better part of the night
looking down the barrel of my rifle, bullet in chamber.  Obviously, I did not
pull the trigger, decided I could not do that to my mother who had already
"lost" her other two children because of this man.  Over the years I've had to
deal with suicides among close friends.  The most recent was a couple years ago.
He was our neighbor and a member of the church where I was pastoring.  He was a
Vietnam vet diagnosed with Post-traumatic Stress Disorder as well as recovering
from prostate cancer.  He was in treatment at the local VA--medications,
occasional
hospitalizations, counseling sessions, group therapy.  His final morning he had
been to a group therapy session, then came home and hung himself.  I'm the one
who cut him down from the rafters.

For the record, I will do everything in my power to prevent a suicide.

I would not say your views are "hard," so much as I would say they are naive and
simplistic.  Yes, on some level suicide is "selfish"--not taking in to
consideration the mess (spiritually, emotionally, and physically) that you leave
behind for others to deal with.  Yes, suicide is often an act of "hopelessness"
which on one level says your problems are too difficult for even God to handle. 
But there is more to it than that.  Suicide is a complex issue.

There are various "reasons" people both contemplate and commit suicide.  Some
are just weary.  Some are angry.  Some are mentally ill, and so on.  (Too often
people forget that the brain is a physical organ, like the heart, the lungs, the
liver; when it is traumatized the symptoms are mental, emotional, behavioral
issues.  There should be no more stigma to mental illness than there is for
asthma, high cholesterol, or a broken arm.)  There are even some medications
given for depression that actually have as a side effect inducing suicidal
tendencies.  So if you're on a medication and have an adverse reaction to it
that induces suicidal tendencies, how is that your "fault" any more than having
an allergic reaction to some other kind of medication?

Clinical Depression is not a silly mood swing people can snap out of, it is a
genuine mental illness, a sign the organ of the brain is damaged in some area.

It is virtually impossible for you or me to get inside the head and heart of a
person who has reached a level of mental and spiritual anguish and disturbance
to know how clear and competent was their thinking at the time they killed
themselves.  There is only One Being who can determine their mental state.

What you and I can do, and have the authority to do, is pull out all the stops
with someone who is manifesting suicidal tendencies, get them the spiritual and
psychological and medical help they need.  Love them, demonstrate to them that
they do matter, people do care, they will be missed, the world would not be a
better place in their absence.  "Reason" with them to the extent that is
possible.  Report them to the authorities.  Pray for them and with them.  Share
God's love with them, show them from the Word how much God cares for them.  Help
them with whatever problems are "drowning" them to the point they can't see a
way out.  Recently challenges were just piling up on my little brother, a
non-Christian in his mid-40s.  Medical problems.  Relationship problems. 
Financial problems.  Legal problems.  It reached a point he could no longer
"breathe," he couldn't function, he couldn't see any light at the end of the
tunnel.  He cried out and
we came running, pulling off some of the load that was burying him so that he
could function again, get breathing room.  He's doing much better, has a long
way to go, but is not feeling the despair and hopelessness of a few months ago.

What you and I cannot do because we do not have the authority to do so is
pronounce final judgment on the soul of a person who has taken their life.  We
are not omniscient.  We don't know all the factors, whether there were
undiagnosed medical issues, etc.  Only God is capable of determining whether a
person was clear-minded and culpable or suffering some trauma that altered their
brain chemistry and short-circuited their judgment center.  I have a 26 year old
niece who is mentally a 2 year old, severe CP and other issues.  She's been
known to take things that don't belong to her.   Is she going to Hell as a
thief?

My friend who suffered PTSD as well as other mental issues long associated with
certain kinds of cancer knew he had a problem.  We talked and studied and prayed
often together.  He sought psychiatric and psychological care.  He fought this
impulse over the course of decades (complicated by survivor's guilt--only man in
his platoon to come back from a patrol alive, the rest were butchered).  In
spite of all those efforts on his part, he lost the internal battle with this
mental cancer.

So do what you can to get help for a suicidal person, but we shouldn't overstep
our authority and pronounce final judgment in these complex matters.


Respectfully,
Stephen Lord

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Hello All,

On may 27th, We shall all be celebrating the day of Pentecost.

I have discovered an article on the internet which argues that Jesus was
crucified for us on Thursday before Good Friday, rather than Good Friday itself.
I can see the arguement they put forward—in view of the Jewish traditions—I
wondered if anyone has any thoughts on the subject or, alternirtive
calculations?

http://www.hebrew4christians.com/Holidays/Spring_Holidays/First_Fruits/first_fru\
its.html

I hope everyone has had a good Easter, without bereavements, troubles or bad
news of any sort?


Yours in the love of Christ,

Geoff

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

On 4/10/2012 11:16 AM, geoff Smith wrote:
>
> Hello All,
>
> On may 27th, We shall all be celebrating the day of Pentecost.
>
> I have discovered an article on the internet which argues that Jesus
> was crucified for us on Thursday before Good Friday, rather than Good
> Friday itself. I can see the arguement they put forward—in view of the
> Jewish traditions—I wondered if anyone has any thoughts on the subject
> or, alternirtive calculations?
>
..............
Try this one;
http://user.pa.net/~jamesjay/Tomb.htm

James
>
>
>
http://www.hebrew4christians.com/Holidays/Spring_Holidays/First_Fruits/first_fru\
its.html
>
> I hope everyone has had a good Easter, without bereavements, troubles
> or bad news of any sort?
>
> Yours in the love of Christ,
>
> Geoff
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>

Hello James,

Thank you for the article. It gives one even more to think about. One day we
will know the answer to this and other questions precisely.


Yours in fellowship,

Geoff

From: Jozinky
Sent: Tuesday, April 10, 2012 4:55 PM
To: apologetics@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [apologetics and theology] First Fruits: Pentecost.




On 4/10/2012 11:16 AM, geoff Smith wrote:
>
> Hello All,
>
> On may 27th, We shall all be celebrating the day of Pentecost.
>
> I have discovered an article on the internet which argues that Jesus
> was crucified for us on Thursday before Good Friday, rather than Good
> Friday itself. I can see the arguement they put forward—in view of the
> Jewish traditions—I wondered if anyone has any thoughts on the subject
> or, alternirtive calculations?
>
..............
Try this one;
http://user.pa.net/~jamesjay/Tomb.htm

James
>
>
>
http://www.hebrew4christians.com/Holidays/Spring_Holidays/First_Fruits/first_fru\
its.html
>
> I hope everyone has had a good Easter, without bereavements, troubles
> or bad news of any sort?
>
> Yours in the love of Christ,
>
> Geoff
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>



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