In a message dated 11/30/01 11:40:06 AM Eastern Standard Time,
LWhite64@... writes:

<< Also, I would give Hood an A for effort for the fight at Peachtree Creek
and Atlanta, that being the only Good things I can say about the Kentuckian
in 1864.
   >>
Lee,
Knowing that you are anti-Johnston  <g> I would still have to give Hood a
total grade of F for failure (thats the lowest I can go doggone it) at Kolb's
Farm.  Any commander that sends his troops into battle without knowing what
he is facing has to receive such a grade and is not worthy of holding the
position of Corps. Cmdr.

Wayne  who is pro-Johnston and tries to understand him

Wayne,
      I agree with the F fopr Kolb Farm, luckily my ancestors werent in the main
part of the attack.  I would also rate his performance at Cassville as an F.  He
wasnt Corps material at all.

Lee, Who doest really like anyone higher than Major General in the AOT
anymore<grin> except AP Stewart.

Time to weigh in on the discussion.

Any study of military operations in the ACW leads one to conclude that
staff work was truly horrendous on both sides.  To study Bragg at
Chickamauga, it is obvious that his staff did him no favors.  That said,
there were simply an amazing number of opportunities that passed Bragg by
simply because he could not get his army to do what he wanted.  And this
after having been in command for over eighteen months.  That leads to
only one conclusion - he was a bad commander.

Tom Hardy
Kansas City
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Circa 6000 Confederates and 2000 Union.

Kristin

  Dave Smith <dmsmith001@...> wrote:

I don't have my numbers right here.  Does anyone have a rough
estimate of the relative casualties at Franklin - Union and
Confederate?

Thanks,

Dave



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I have to agree with you,Lee.

Kristin 

  LWhite64@... wrote:

Well I also feel a little sorry for Hood, sorry that he was one of the 2% to survive a amputation at the hip.  Now I know this sounds bad, but if Hood had died from his wound at Chickamauga he would be enshrined along with Jackson and Stuart.  Instead his reputation feel into the abyss.

Lee


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Lee, 

thankyou sooooooo much for calling Hood from Kentucky!  Most rate him from Texas ("John Bell Hood of Texas reinged Hell in Tennessee"), but he was not org from there.  Just thought I would say thanks!:)

Kristin 

  LWhite64@... wrote:

Wayne,
     I agree, although I think his performance at Corps level was best at Chickamauga...the Atlanta Campaign was another story.  Also, I know you will disagree with me on this, but I also blame Johnston for this, as at the beginning of the campaign relied heavily on Hood, since he was from the East.  Also, I would give Hood an A for effort for the fight at Peachtree Creek and Atlanta, that being the only Good things I can say about the Kentuckian in 1864.

Lee


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That is a good question, I am not sure if war criminal would apply
then again, look at Custer his ego got him killed and transformed him
into a legend. Go figure?


-- In civilwarwest@y..., "Michael Mason" <richthofen@b...> wrote:
> This brings to mind the question.Are you a war criminal
> if you have your own troops murdered by the enemy
> to feed your massive ego?
> Baron von Tecumseh
>
>
>
> On 29-Nov-01, Kristin Scherrer <wacogaurds64@y...> wrote:
>
>
>  Well, I had a long, detailed email in response to this, but I
deleted it accedentally.  Let's try this again:)
> I do believe Hood was a good commander, but that the climax of his
career was in July of '63.  After that, slowly going down hill.  At
the time of Franklin, in all fairness to the General, he did have his
arm in a sling(what was left of it) from Gettysburg, and his leg
amputated at the hip from Chicamauga and was highly "medicated" and
drinking VERY heavily.  But enough in being fair and down to the
truth!  He was still in charge of a whole army.  An army that was not
in good shape, eating a diet that consisted of 3 biscuits, about the
size of the average man's fist, half of whioch being saw-dust
filler.  He had no buisness ordering them down a hill, 2 miles into
death.  And doing this after Generals Cheatam, Cleburne, and even
Forrest strongly dissaproved.  At 4pm, November 30, 1864, with the
bands playing "Dixie" and "Bonnie Blue Flag",the battle flags
flapping in the cool November breeze, though it was an Indian Summer
day, the AOT was lead by the generals themselves into b!
> attle.  Many men who died that afternoon, their service to the Army
ended on November 30, but they faught anyways.  One man even went
into battle with crutches.  E.M. Bounds, with Cockrell's Missouri
Brigade went into battle with his back to the Fed's, Bible in hand,
and pleading men to come to Christ and preaching the truth.  he
survived a saber wound, but because he was a chaplian, he was pulled
over the works and was spared.  If you have been to the Carnton
Magavock Cemetery and seen the Missouri marker, he is the one that
raised the money for that monument through offerings in his church.
I suppose that is off the subject, but the anniversary is tomorrow.
And one thing I do not understand, is the General in charge of this,
Hood, later in life wrote a book entitled "Advance and Retreat"
blaming the men for what happened on the bloody fields of Franklin
that aweful afternoon where it was, as Sam Watkins said, "the grand
harvest of death".  May those boys who fought for wha!
> t they believed in and died for it, on both sides, may they rest in
peace with their Creator and may they never be forgotten!
> God bless you guys and I hope the boys are in your thoughts
tomorrow,
> Kristin
>   Jim Elliot <jrayelliot@a...> wrote: Care to comment on Hood's
brilliant handling tactical handling of the
> Army of Tennessee 137 years ago tomorrow.
>
>
>
>
>
>
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In a message dated Fri, 30 Nov 2001  9:12:16 AM Eastern Standard Time,
Aurelie1999@... writes:

Cleburne and
> Forrest were loyal subordinates who followed the orders of a slightly whacked
> out Hood as the chain of command demands.  I guess they fall into the
> leader/commander definitions of recent discussions.   But where does that
> leave Hood frequently described as: "A peter principal example."
>
> I have the feeling that if Hood had not been put at the head of that army, he
> would be one of those "what ifs" we love to talk about.  You know, "John Bell
> should have been promoted to a command position.  He proved himself as a
> brigade and division leader and should have been the perfect choice."  I
> guess my point is that surface indicators are only that and do not
> necessarily translate to rising above the level of their own incompetence
----------

Hood was a good division commander, a decent corps commander, but a lousy army
commander.  They require different skills and different levels of vision.  Lee
had him pegged when he wrote Davis saying, in his own tactful way, that he
doubted Hood had the qualities necessary to be an army commander.  Davis didn't
listen.  Sure, Cleburne and the others followed orders like they were supposed
to, but that didn't make Hood a good army commander.  Hood was a good leader,
but he was lacking in the other skills necessary for an army commander.  At the
division level, though, he inspired his men an it was his leadership of them
that made him such a good division commander.

Regards,
Cash

--- In civilwarwest@y..., hartshje@a... wrote:
> --- In civilwarwest@y..., "Michael Mason" <richthofen@b...> wrote:
> > This brings to mind the question.Are you a war criminal
> > if you have your own troops murdered by the enemy
> > to feed your massive ego?
> > Baron von Tecumseh
> >
> >
> >
> Baron,
>  As bad as Hood's judgement was at Franklin, I don't think it was
his
> ego doing the talking.  Let us not forget that Hood had a
reputation
> for straight, head-on fighting, which had been quite a successful
> (though costly) for whatever unit he commanded (R.E. Lee: "Texans
> ALWAYS move them!").  I think his wound at Gettysburg cost him much
> more than a useless arm.  It cost him the eyewitness experience of
> the bloody Confederate repulse on July 3rd.  Of course, I'm sure he
> read about it, and talked about it with others, but that's not quite
> the same thing as seeing it first-hand.  Lee certainly never tried
> anything like THAT again.   Joe H.

Joe,
I think it was a combination of both. Hood's greatest moments had
come in East during a part of the War when engagements were still
pretty well standup and face the foe affairs. Sharpsville for example.

Had he witnessed Picket's assault I do not think he would have
repeated the mistake at Franklin. The long gentle slope at Franklin
very much resembles the ground at Gettysburg. The exception is
instead of a stone wall, Jacob Cox was strongly fortified.

You mention had Opedyke not been where he was Hood's fortunes may
have been different. If Opedyke's boss Waggoner not disobeyed orders
and attempted to have his troops stand and fight Hood, creating the
route and allowing Cleaburnes and Cheathams troops to follow the
routed federals right up to the breastworks. Waggoners troops
prevented the federal army from opening on the rebs until Waggoners
men came within the lines. Had they retired as they were supposed to
do Hoods grand charge would have been blasted to rags long before
they came close the outer works must less breaching the lines in
front of the Carter House..

In a message dated Fri, 30 Nov 2001 12:07:55 PM Eastern Standard Time, Thomas A
Hardy <thardy9@...> writes:

> Time to weigh in on the discussion.
>
> Any study of military operations in the ACW leads one to conclude that
> staff work was truly horrendous on both sides.  To study Bragg at
> Chickamauga, it is obvious that his staff did him no favors.  That said,
> there were simply an amazing number of opportunities that passed Bragg by
> simply because he could not get his army to do what he wanted.  And this
> after having been in command for over eighteen months.  That leads to
> only one conclusion - he was a bad commander.
>

There was a rather famous Confederate commander in the "other theater" who had
the same complaint--he couldn't get his army to do what he wanted.  Would the
same judgment apply to him?

Regards,
Cash

In a message dated 11/30/01 12:58:32 PM, CashG79@... writes:

<< They require different skills and different levels of vision.  Lee had him
pegged when he wrote Davis saying, in his own tactful way, that he doubted
Hood had the qualities necessary to be an army commander. >>

Makes plenty of sense to me.
Connie

Now let me tell you buster, I ain't no fan of Custer, and the Gen'ral, he don't
ride well anymore!


> ** Original Subject: RE: [civilwarwest] John Bell Hood and you thought  Bragg
was bad.
> ** Original Sender: "Jim Elliot" <jrayelliot@...>
> ** Original Date: Fri, 30 Nov 2001 12:38:45 -0600

> ** Original Message follows...

>
> <html><body>
> <tt>
> That is a good question, I am not sure if war criminal would apply <BR>
> then again, look at Custer his ego got him killed and transformed him <BR>
> into a legend. Go figure?<BR>
> <BR>
> <BR>
> -- In civilwarwest@y..., "Michael Mason" <richthofen@b...>
wrote:<BR>
> > This brings to mind the question.Are you a war criminal<BR>
> > if you have your own troops murdered by the enemy<BR>
> > to feed your massive ego?<BR>
> > Baron von Tecumseh<BR>
> > <BR>
> > <BR>
> > <BR>
> > On 29-Nov-01, Kristin Scherrer <wacogaurds64@y...> wrote:<BR>
> > <BR>
> > <BR>
> >  Well, I had a long, detailed email in response to this, but I <BR>
> deleted it accedentally.  Let's try this again:)  <BR>
> > I do believe Hood was a good commander, but that the climax of his <BR>
> career was in July of '63.  After that, slowly going down hill.  At
<BR>
> the time of Franklin, in all fairness to the General, he did have his <BR>
> arm in a sling(what was left of it) from Gettysburg, and his leg <BR>
> amputated at the hip from Chicamauga and was highly "medicated" and
<BR>
> drinking VERY heavily.  But enough in being fair and down to the <BR>
> truth!  He was still in charge of a whole army.  An army that was
not <BR>
> in good shape, eating a diet that consisted of 3 biscuits, about the <BR>
> size of the average man's fist, half of whioch being saw-dust <BR>
> filler.  He had no buisness ordering them down a hill, 2 miles into <BR>
> death.  And doing this after Generals Cheatam, Cleburne, and even <BR>
> Forrest strongly dissaproved.  At 4pm, November 30, 1864, with the <BR>
> bands playing "Dixie" and "Bonnie Blue Flag",the battle
flags <BR>
> flapping in the cool November breeze, though it was an Indian Summer <BR>
> day, the AOT was lead by the generals themselves into b!<BR>
> > attle.  Many men who died that afternoon, their service to the Army
<BR>
> ended on November 30, but they faught anyways.  One man even went <BR>
> into battle with crutches.  E.M. Bounds, with Cockrell's Missouri <BR>
> Brigade went into battle with his back to the Fed's, Bible in hand, <BR>
> and pleading men to come to Christ and preaching the truth.  he <BR>
> survived a saber wound, but because he was a chaplian, he was pulled <BR>
> over the works and was spared.  If you have been to the Carnton <BR>
> Magavock Cemetery and seen the Missouri marker, he is the one that <BR>
> raised the money for that monument through offerings in his church.  <BR>
> I suppose that is off the subject, but the anniversary is tomorrow.  <BR>
> And one thing I do not understand, is the General in charge of this, <BR>
> Hood, later in life wrote a book entitled "Advance and Retreat" <BR>
> blaming the men for what happened on the bloody fields of Franklin <BR>
> that aweful afternoon where it was, as Sam Watkins said, "the grand <BR>
> harvest of death".  May those boys who fought for wha!<BR>
> > t they believed in and died for it, on both sides, may they rest in <BR>
> peace with their Creator and may they never be forgotten!<BR>
> > God bless you guys and I hope the boys are in your thoughts <BR>
> tomorrow,<BR>
> > Kristin<BR>
> >   Jim Elliot <jrayelliot@a...> wrote: Care to comment on
Hood's <BR>
> brilliant handling tactical handling of the <BR>
> > Army of Tennessee 137 years ago tomorrow. <BR>
> > <BR>
> > <BR>
> > <BR>
> > <BR>
> > <BR>
> > <BR>
> > <BR>
> > Yahoo! Groups SponsorADVERTISEMENT<BR>
> > <BR>
> > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of <BR>
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>** --------- End Original Message ----------- **

>


Download NeoPlanet at http://www.neoplanet.com

that's why I do long posts on a word document first :)
--- In civilwarwest@y..., Kristin Scherrer <wacogaurds64@y...> wrote:
>
>  Well, I had a long, detailed email in response to this, but I
deleted it accedentally.

In a message dated 11/30/01 1:07:15 PM Eastern Standard Time,
wacogaurds64@... writes:

<< Most rate him from Texas ("John Bell Hood of Texas reinged Hell in
Tennessee"), but he was not org from there.  Just thought I would say
thanks!:) >>

He was in command of "Hood's Brigade" of Texans for only about six months.
Come to think of it, I don't have any record of him ever being in Texas.  But
yet as Wakefield says, I too can be wrong.  <g>

Wayne

There's one significant point about John Bell Hood that has not been mentioned
so far in this debate: He blamed everyone else but himself for his failures as
CIC of the Army of Tennessee, down to the very soldiers in the ranks. He
continued to do so to his dying day (see his autobiography "Advance and
retreat"). Is that a characteristic of a great leader? That the very men whom he
ordered to make the assault at Franklin are to be blamed for his haphazard
planning and antiquated tactics? I am more inclined to agree with Capt. Sam
Foster of the 24th Texas that Franklin "cannot be called anything but
cold-blooded murder". John Bell Hood as an army commander was a disaster. For
those who don't believe it, read Wiley Sword's "Embrace an Angry Wind". Or visit
the Carter House museum at Franklin (where the only portrait of John Bell Hood
is displayed in the restroom)...

Lars Gjertveit

- "Forward, men, forward! Let it never be said that Texans lag in a fight!"
     Gen. Hiram Bronson Granbury, Franklin, Tn., November 30, 1864.


----- Original Message -----
From: <FLYNSWEDE@...>
To: <civilwarwest@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Friday, November 30, 2001 11:03 PM
Subject: Re: [civilwarwest] John Bell Hood and you thought Bragg was bad.


> In a message dated 11/30/01 1:07:15 PM Eastern Standard Time,
> wacogaurds64@... writes:
>
> << Most rate him from Texas ("John Bell Hood of Texas reinged Hell in
> Tennessee"), but he was not org from there.  Just thought I would say
> thanks!:) >>
>
> He was in command of "Hood's Brigade" of Texans for only about six months.
> Come to think of it, I don't have any record of him ever being in Texas.  But
> yet as Wakefield says, I too can be wrong.  <g>
>
> Wayne
>
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>
>

Dave,
I only have the numbers that Cox gives in his book on the battle with
me. He lists Hood's as 6,669 and Schofield's as 2326.

Ray



--- In civilwarwest@y..., "Dave Smith" <dmsmith001@y...> wrote:
> I don't have my numbers right here.  Does anyone have a rough
> estimate of the relative casualties at Franklin - Union and
> Confederate?
>
> Thanks,
>
> Dave

In a message dated 11/30/01 6:15:39 PM Central Standard Time,
jrayelliot@... writes:

<< Dave,
  I only have the numbers that Ox gives in his book on the battle with
  me. He lists Hood's as 6,669 and Schofield's as 2326.
    >>

This morning I provided the casualty numbers as did J.E. Epperson.  If there
is a question on the numbers, I for one would like to know where they are
inaccurate and why there is a question.  I am sure that J. Epperson is just
as curious.

Connie

Lee,
I agree that the numbers are low. The Confederate figures Cox
provides in his book do not count wounded that as he puts it would
have returned to duty within 10 days.

He provides an analytical approach to determining Hoods causulties
that is interesting. Also since a good number of Hoods troops were
from the middle Tennessee area it is quite likely a good number of
confederate dead were claimed by families and removed from the
battlefield. I have read accounts of relatives showing up to claim
the bodies.

I think this will account for the fact that the largest number of
graves in the confederate cemetary are from other states.

--- In civilwarwest@y..., LWhite64@a... wrote:
> Not to get into a game of numbers, but I have always thought that
the CS
> losses as a total were low, and if Franklin is anything like
Chickamauga,
> that may be the case.  Grand total of dead for Chickamauga is
supposed to be
> 4,000 and I have compiled over 3,000 for the Confederates alone.
It is
> likely that we will never know for sure.
>
> Lee

In a message dated 11/30/01 9:56:34 AM Central Standard Time,
LWhite64@... writes:

<< "I agree,
  Damn the bullet that made him lose his leg..."

  Ironically that bullet may have been southern.

  Lee
   >>
I heard the same same thing about  Johston  leg  at shiloh that it was more
likely a confederate bullet as well..

Your most Obedient Servant
Steven N. Cone
===

In a message dated 11/30/01 10:40:16 AM Central Standard Time,
LWhite64@... writes:

<<   Also, I would give Hood an A for effort for the fight at Peachtree Creek
and Atlanta, that being the only Good things I can say about the Kentuckian
in 1864.

  Lee
   >>
Well Hoods plan for spring hill was pretty good out flank em .  problem was
in the execution of it was plan crappy ..
Was it Cheatham at fought or was it Brown..
Forrest did what he could but was out of ammo
How about Johnson  his div went  to check on the pike it was clear...

Your most Obedient Servant
Steven N. Cone

I was wondering something ..

Considering that Franklin was one of the very few night battles that occurred
during the civil war I wonder what percentage of the casualties, might have
actually  been from friendly fire,  Anyone want to take a guess  at an
answer...

steven

Cash,

  Tom has a great point here, and it relates to all the commanders of
all the armies, North & South.  What made the great ones great was
that they overcame this handicap in one of three ways (IMO):

  1. They were able to create an efficient, reliable staff.
  2. They were able to superimpose their will through the strength of
     their personalities and skills as leaders, inspite of their
     inadequate staffs, or
  3. They were able to combine 1. & 2.

  So I would say that Bragg failed where Lee succeeded!

  Respectfully, Joe H.

--- In civilwarwest@y..., CashG79@a... wrote:
> There was a rather famous Confederate commander in the "other
theater" who had the same complaint--he couldn't get his army to do
what he wanted.  Would the same judgment apply to him?
>
> Regards,
> Cash
>
> In a message dated Fri, 30 Nov 2001 12:07:55 PM Eastern Standard
Time, Thomas A Hardy <thardy9@j...> writes:
>
> > Time to weigh in on the discussion.
> >
> > Any study of military operations in the ACW leads one to conclude
> > that staff work was truly horrendous on both sides.  To study
> > Bragg at Chickamauga, it is obvious that his staff did him no
> > favors.  That said, there were simply an amazing number of
> > opportunities that passed Bragg by simply because he could not
> > get his army to do what he wanted.  And this after having been
> > in command for over eighteen months.  That leads to only one
> > conclusion - he was a bad commander.
> >

Jim,
  I agree with you completely !  The ironic thing is, if the attack
had, in fact, been "blasted to rags" prior to reaching the Union
lines, the casualty count probably would have been a lot less without
the hours of face to face combat at the works.  And the fruitlessness
of the situation would have been realized a whole lot sooner.
- Joe

--- In civilwarwest@y..., "Jim Elliot" <jrayelliot@a...> wrote:
> Joe,
> I think it was a combination of both. Hood's greatest moments had
> come in East during a part of the War when engagements were still
> pretty well standup and face the foe affairs. Sharpsville for
> example.
>
> Had he witnessed Picket's assault I do not think he would have
> repeated the mistake at Franklin. The long gentle slope at Franklin
> very much resembles the ground at Gettysburg. The exception is
> instead of a stone wall, Jacob Cox was strongly fortified.
>
> You mention had Opedyke not been where he was Hood's fortunes may
> have been different. If Opedyke's boss Waggoner had not disobeyed
> orders and attempted to have his troops stand and fight Hood,
> creating the rout and allowing Cleaburne's and Cheatham's troops to
> follow the routed federals right up to the breastworks. Waggoner's
> troops prevented the federal army from opening on the rebs until
> Waggoner's men came within the lines. Had they retired as they were
> supposed to do Hood's grand charge would have been blasted to rags
> long before they came close the outer works must less breaching the
> lines in front of the Carter House..
>
> --- In civilwarwest@y..., hartshje@a... wrote:
> >
> >  As bad as Hood's judgement was at Franklin, I don't think it was
> >  his ego doing the talking.  Let us not forget that Hood had a
> >  reputation for straight, head-on fighting, which had been quite
> >  a successful (though costly) tactic for whatever unit he
> > commanded (R.E. Lee: "Texans ALWAYS move them!").  I think his
> > wound at Gettysburg cost him much more than a useless arm.  It
> > cost him the eyewitness experience of the bloody Confederate
> > repulse on July 3rd.  Of course, I'm sure he read about it, and
> > talked about it with others, but that's not quite the same thing
> > as seeing it first-hand.  Lee certainly never tried anything like
> > THAT again. So Hood still believed that Southern spirit and
> > courage could carry the day against anything. And who knows, if
> > Opdyke's brigade hadn't been in the right spot at the right time,
> > the Union line gets split in half, each half flanked out of their
> > strong breastworks, and possibly the whole lot is bagged south of
> > the Harpeth River. Then Hood goes down in history as another Lee
> > or Napoleon. Never-the-less, the whole thing was still a very bad
> > idea.
> >

--- In civilwarwest@y..., "Dave Smith" <dmsmith001@y...> wrote:
> In a message dated Thu, 29 Nov 2001  4:15:35 PM Eastern Standard
Dave,
  Very interesting.  I have never heard of this before.  Does counting
the dead in WWII (I mean counting up to 40 million) count as "higher
math"?
- Joe

> Time, "Dave Smith" <dmsmith001@y...> writes:
>
> For those unfamiliar, Godwin's Law states:
>
> "As a Usenet discussion grows longer, the probability of a
> comparison involving Nazis or Hitler approaches one.  "There is a
> tradition in many groups that, once this occurs, that thread is
> over, and whoever mentioned the Nazis has automatically lost
> whatever argument was in progress. Godwin's Law thus practically
> guarantees the existence of an upper bound on thread length in
> those groups. However there is also a widely- recognized codicil
> that any intentional triggering of Godwin's Law in order to invoke
> its thread-ending effects will be unsuccessful."
>
> As you can see, higher math is required . . .
>
>
> Dave Smith
> Villa Hills, KY

--- In civilwarwest@y..., LWhite64@a... wrote:
> Not to get into a game of numbers, but I have always thought that
> the CS losses as a total were low, and if Franklin is anything like
> Chickamauga, that may be the case.  Grand total of dead for
> Chickamauga is supposed to be 4,000 and I have compiled over 3,000
> for the Confederates alone.  It is likely that we will never know
> for sure.
>
> Lee

Lee,
  How did you compile this list?  Do you compare the dates of the data
sources you are using to the original reports?  Usually, a "Casualty
List" refers to the status of the casualties as of the day the battle
ended.  Thereafter, many of the "wounded" died of their wounds, and
many of the "missing" were actually dead (their bodies never
accounted for).  Just curious.
Joe H.

Joe,
I wonder if Hood would have realized the fruitlessness if that had
happened. Some time around midnight he had issued orders for another
major frontal assault to take place the following morning. This was
long after the extent of the casulties were known.

Had Schofield elected to stay and fight Hood would have simply lined
the rest of SD Lee's corp up with the remains of Cheathams and
Stewarts Corps and the Army of Tennessee would have been destroyed on
that long gentle slope.

Jim


--- In civilwarwest@y..., hartshje@a... wrote:
> Jim,
>  I agree with you completely !  The ironic thing is, if the attack
> had, in fact, been "blasted to rags" prior to reaching the Union
> lines, the casualty count probably would have been a lot less
without
> the hours of face to face combat at the works.  And the
fruitlessness
> of the situation would have been realized a whole lot sooner.
> - Joe
>
> --- In civilwarwest@y..., "Jim Elliot" <jrayelliot@a...> wrote:
> > Joe,
> > I think it was a combination of both. Hood's greatest moments had
> > come in East during a part of the War when engagements were still
> > pretty well standup and face the foe affairs. Sharpsville for
> > example.
> >
> > Had he witnessed Picket's assault I do not think he would have
> > repeated the mistake at Franklin. The long gentle slope at
Franklin
> > very much resembles the ground at Gettysburg. The exception is
> > instead of a stone wall, Jacob Cox was strongly fortified.
> >
> > You mention had Opedyke not been where he was Hood's fortunes may
> > have been different. If Opedyke's boss Waggoner had not disobeyed
> > orders and attempted to have his troops stand and fight Hood,
> > creating the rout and allowing Cleaburne's and Cheatham's troops
to
> > follow the routed federals right up to the breastworks.
Waggoner's
> > troops prevented the federal army from opening on the rebs until
> > Waggoner's men came within the lines. Had they retired as they
were
> > supposed to do Hood's grand charge would have been blasted to
rags
> > long before they came close the outer works must less breaching
the
> > lines in front of the Carter House..
> >
> > --- In civilwarwest@y..., hartshje@a... wrote:
> > >
> > >  As bad as Hood's judgement was at Franklin, I don't think it
was
> > >  his ego doing the talking.  Let us not forget that Hood had a
> > >  reputation for straight, head-on fighting, which had been
quite
> > >  a successful (though costly) tactic for whatever unit he
> > > commanded (R.E. Lee: "Texans ALWAYS move them!").  I think his
> > > wound at Gettysburg cost him much more than a useless arm.  It
> > > cost him the eyewitness experience of the bloody Confederate
> > > repulse on July 3rd.  Of course, I'm sure he read about it, and
> > > talked about it with others, but that's not quite the same
thing
> > > as seeing it first-hand.  Lee certainly never tried anything
like
> > > THAT again. So Hood still believed that Southern spirit and
> > > courage could carry the day against anything. And who knows, if
> > > Opdyke's brigade hadn't been in the right spot at the right
time,
> > > the Union line gets split in half, each half flanked out of
their
> > > strong breastworks, and possibly the whole lot is bagged south
of
> > > the Harpeth River. Then Hood goes down in history as another
Lee
> > > or Napoleon. Never-the-less, the whole thing was still a very
bad
> > > idea.
> > >

Hood was to agressive for his and his Armys own good,
but mainly Hood was in no physical condition to be
leading an Army after the wounds he had received.
So the real sinner in the whole Hood nightmare was
the man who promoted Hood in the first place.
The Baron




On 30-Nov-01, Lars Gjertveit <7texas@...> wrote:
<html><body>
<tt>
There's one significant point about John Bell Hood that has not been mentioned
so far in this debate: He blamed everyone else but himself for his failures as
CIC of the Army of Tennessee, down to the very soldiers in the ranks. He
continued to do so to his dying day (see his autobiography "Advance and
retreat"). Is that a characteristic of a great leader? That the very men whom he
ordered to make the assault at Franklin are to be blamed for his haphazard
planning and antiquated tactics? I am more inclined to agree with Capt. Sam
Foster of the 24th Texas that Franklin "cannot be called anything but
cold-blooded murder". John Bell Hood as an army commander was a disaster. For
those who don't believe it, read Wiley Sword's "Embrace an Angry Wind". Or visit
the Carter House museum at Franklin (where the only portrait of John Bell Hood
is displayed in the restroom)...<BR>
<BR>
Lars Gjertveit<BR>
<BR>
- "Forward, men, forward! Let it never be said that Texans lag in a fight!"<BR>
    Gen. Hiram Bronson Granbury, Franklin, Tn., November 30, 1864. <BR>
<BR>
<BR>
----- Original Message ----- <BR>
From: <FLYNSWEDE@...><BR>
To: <civilwarwest@yahoogroups.com><BR>
Sent: Friday, November 30, 2001 11:03 PM<BR>
Subject: Re: [civilwarwest] John Bell Hood and you thought Bragg was bad.<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
> In a message dated 11/30/01 1:07:15 PM Eastern Standard Time, <BR>
> wacogaurds64@... writes:<BR>
> <BR>
> << Most rate him from Texas ("John Bell Hood of Texas reinged Hell in <BR>
> Tennessee"), but he was not org from there.  Just thought I would say <BR>
> thanks!:) >><BR>
> <BR>
> He was in command of "Hood's Brigade" of Texans for only about six months. 
<BR>
> Come to think of it, I don't have any record of him ever being in Texas.  But
<BR>
> yet as Wakefield says, I too can be wrong.  <g><BR>
> <BR>
> Wayne<BR>
> <BR>
>  <BR>
> <BR>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to <a
href="http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/">http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/</a>
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Custer ,Ego incarnated !  The Baron



On :, jaaah@... wrote:
<html><body>
<tt>
Now let me tell you buster, I ain't no fan of Custer, and the Gen'ral, he don't
ride well anymore!<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
> ** Original Subject: RE: [civilwarwest] John Bell Hood and you thought  Bragg
was bad.<BR>
> ** Original Sender: "Jim Elliot" <jrayelliot@...><BR>
> ** Original Date: Fri, 30 Nov 2001 12:38:45 -0600<BR>
<BR>
> ** Original Message follows... <BR>
<BR>
><BR>
> <html><body><BR>
> <tt><BR>
> That is a good question, I am not sure if war criminal would apply <BR><BR>
> then again, look at Custer his ego got him killed and transformed him <BR><BR>
> into a legend. Go figure?<BR><BR>
> <BR><BR>
> <BR><BR>
> -- In civilwarwest@y..., "Michael Mason" <richthofen@b...>
wrote:<BR><BR>
> > This brings to mind the question.Are you a war criminal<BR><BR>
> > if you have your own troops murdered by the enemy<BR><BR>
> > to feed your massive ego?<BR><BR>
> > Baron von Tecumseh<BR><BR>
> > <BR><BR>
> > <BR><BR>
> > <BR><BR>
> > On 29-Nov-01, Kristin Scherrer <wacogaurds64@y...> wrote:<BR><BR>
> > <BR><BR>
> > <BR><BR>
> >  Well, I had a long, detailed email in response to this, but I
<BR><BR>
> deleted it accedentally.  Let's try this again:)  <BR><BR>
> > I do believe Hood was a good commander, but that the climax of his
<BR><BR>
> career was in July of '63.  After that, slowly going down hill.  At
<BR><BR>
> the time of Franklin, in all fairness to the General, he did have his <BR><BR>
> arm in a sling(what was left of it) from Gettysburg, and his leg <BR><BR>
> amputated at the hip from Chicamauga and was highly "medicated" and
<BR><BR>
> drinking VERY heavily.  But enough in being fair and down to the <BR><BR>
> truth!  He was still in charge of a whole army.  An army that was
not <BR><BR>
> in good shape, eating a diet that consisted of 3 biscuits, about the <BR><BR>
> size of the average man's fist, half of whioch being saw-dust <BR><BR>
> filler.  He had no buisness ordering them down a hill, 2 miles into
<BR><BR>
> death.  And doing this after Generals Cheatam, Cleburne, and even
<BR><BR>
> Forrest strongly dissaproved.  At 4pm, November 30, 1864, with the
<BR><BR>
> bands playing "Dixie" and "Bonnie Blue Flag",the battle
flags <BR><BR>
> flapping in the cool November breeze, though it was an Indian Summer <BR><BR>
> day, the AOT was lead by the generals themselves into b!<BR><BR>
> > attle.  Many men who died that afternoon, their service to the Army
<BR><BR>
> ended on November 30, but they faught anyways.  One man even went
<BR><BR>
> into battle with crutches.  E.M. Bounds, with Cockrell's Missouri
<BR><BR>
> Brigade went into battle with his back to the Fed's, Bible in hand, <BR><BR>
> and pleading men to come to Christ and preaching the truth.  he <BR><BR>
> survived a saber wound, but because he was a chaplian, he was pulled <BR><BR>
> over the works and was spared.  If you have been to the Carnton <BR><BR>
> Magavock Cemetery and seen the Missouri marker, he is the one that <BR><BR>
> raised the money for that monument through offerings in his church. 
<BR><BR>
> I suppose that is off the subject, but the anniversary is tomorrow. 
<BR><BR>
> And one thing I do not understand, is the General in charge of this, <BR><BR>
> Hood, later in life wrote a book entitled "Advance and Retreat"
<BR><BR>
> blaming the men for what happened on the bloody fields of Franklin <BR><BR>
> that aweful afternoon where it was, as Sam Watkins said, "the grand
<BR><BR>
> harvest of death".  May those boys who fought for wha!<BR><BR>
> > t they believed in and died for it, on both sides, may they rest in
<BR><BR>
> peace with their Creator and may they never be forgotten!<BR><BR>
> > God bless you guys and I hope the boys are in your thoughts <BR><BR>
> tomorrow,<BR><BR>
> > Kristin<BR><BR>
> >   Jim Elliot <jrayelliot@a...> wrote: Care to comment on
Hood's <BR><BR>
> brilliant handling tactical handling of the <BR><BR>
> > Army of Tennessee 137 years ago tomorrow. <BR><BR>
> > <BR><BR>
> > <BR><BR>
> > <BR><BR>
> > <BR><BR>
> > <BR><BR>
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