I believe Regent College are publishing all four of the novels not already
published by Eerdman's, and have already produced "The Descent of the
Dove".
         Richard Sturch.

Are there more novels than the 6 released by Eerdmans or am I just
reading that wrong?



Jonas



-----Original Message-----
From: Richard Sturch [mailto:RSturch@...]
Sent: Saturday, November 01, 2003 9:27 AM
To: INTERNET:coinherence-l@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [coinherence-l] Digest Number 748



I believe Regent College are publishing all four of the novels not
already
published by Eerdman's, and have already produced "The Descent of the
Dove".
         Richard Sturch.





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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

The number is 7, I believe, but it is a rainy Sunday in the Fall and
I'm not looking them up just now. ;-)

DDD

--- In coinherence-l@yahoogroups.com, "Jonas Streich"
<vanguard98@h...> wrote:
> Are there more novels than the 6 released by Eerdmans or am I just
> reading that wrong?

This is my own hodge-podge list of C Wms' writings. It's just a cut and paste,
so there are duplicates. Also, quotations from sources that I can no longer
identify. I think some of this information may comes from the Society's pages.

In any case, I hope it helps!
SherryT


>
> From: "stagh0rn" <stagh0rn@...>
> Date: 2003/11/02 Sun PM 01:31:10 EST
> To: coinherence-l@yahoogroups.com
> Subject: [coinherence-l] Re: Digest Number 748
>
> The number is 7, I believe, but it is a rainy Sunday in the Fall and
> I'm not looking them up just now. ;-)
>
> DDD
>
> --- In coinherence-l@yahoogroups.com, "Jonas Streich"
> <vanguard98@h...> wrote:
> > Are there more novels than the 6 released by Eerdmans or am I just
> > reading that wrong?
>

---------------------------------------------------------------------~->

CHARLES WILLIAMS

http://greatsfandf.com/BOOKS/AllHallowsEve.html

Buy Links: "The Greater Trumps" by Charles Williams
The Greater Trumps by Charles Williams [series: Aspects of Power]. Editions ...
Edition
Regent College Pub April, 2003.

All Hallows' Eve
Author: Charles Williams, T. S. Eliot, November, 2002
Manufacturer: Regent College Pub


All Hallow's Eve
Editions: Paperback (Eerdmans Pub Co, March 1, 1981), cover price $10.00;
Hardcover (Lightyear Pr, June 1, 1993),


Arthurain Torso: Containing the Posthumous Fragment of the Figure of Arthur
by Williams, Charles
Editions: Hardcover (Ams Pr, December 1, 2003), cover price $27.00


A Charles Williams Reader
  by Williams, Charles
Editions: Hardcover (Eerdmans Pub Co, June 1, 2000),


Charles Williams: Essential Writings in Spirituality and Theology
  by Hefling, Charles (editor); Williams, Charles
Editions: Paperback (Cowley Pubns, March 1, 1993),



Descent into Hell
  by Williams, Charles
Editions: Paperback (Eerdmans Pub Co, June 1, 1937), Cassette/Spoken Word
(Blackstone Audiobooks, August 1, 1997),


The Detective Fiction Reviews of Charles Williams, 1930-1935
  by Lobdell, Jared C. (editor); Lobdell, Jared; Williams, Charles
Editions: Paperback (McFarland & Co Inc Pub, April 1, 2003), cover price $35.00


The Figure of Beatrice: A Study in Dante
  by Williams, Charles
Editions: Paperback (Univ of Rochester Pr, November 1, 1994),


The Forgiveness of Sins
by Williams, Charles
Editions: Paperback (Eerdmans Pub Co, November 1, 1984),


The Greater Trumps
by Williams, Charles
Editions: Paperback (Eerdmans Pub Co, January 1, 1977),

He Came Down from Heaven
by Williams, Charles
Editions: Paperback (Eerdmans Pub Co, November 1, 1984),


Letters to Lalage: The Letters of Charles Williams to Lois Lang-Sims
  by Williams, Charles
Editions: Paperback (Kent State Univ Pr, December 1, 1989),

Many Dimensions
by Spencer, Stewart (narrator); Williams, Charles
Editions: Cassette/Spoken Word (Blackstone Audiobooks, August 1, 1997),


The Masques of Amen House: Together With, Amen House Poems and With Selections
from the Music for the Masques by Hubert J. Foss
  by Bosky, Bernadette Lynn (introduced by); Bratman, David (editor); Bratman,
David; Foss, Hubert J. (compiler); Foss, Hubert J.; Williams, Charles
Editions: Paperback (Mythopoeic Pr, July 1, 2000), cover price $14.00


Outlines of Romantic Theology: Religion and Love in Dante : The Theology of
Romantic Love by Williams, Charles
Editions: Hardcover (Eerdmans Pub Co, September 1, 1990),

Place of the Lion
by Williams, Charles
Editions: Paperback (Eerdmans Pub Co, June 1, 1979), cover price $10.00;
Cassette/Spoken Word (Blackstone Audiobooks, August 1, 1997), cover price
$44.95; Paperback (Regent College Pub, February 1, 2003), cover price $19.95

Shadows of Ecstasy
by Williams, Charles,
Editions: Paperback (Eerdmans Pub Co, June 1, 1950),


To Michal from Serge: Letters from Charles Williams to His Wife, Florence,
1939-1945 by King, Roma A.; Williams, Charles
Editions: Hardcover (Kent State Univ Pr, January 1, 2002),





War in Heaven
by Williams, Charles
Editions: Paperback (Eerdmans Pub Co, June 1, 1981),


Eerdmans :

War in Heaven,

Many Dimensions

Descent into Hell

All Hallows' Eve

War in Heaven, Many Dimensions, and Descent into Hell are now available in one
volume, A Charles Williams Reader, also published by Eerdmans.

Regent Publishing
The Descent of the Dove.

Williams's most important poetry, the Arthurian cycles  Taliessin through Logres
and TheRegion of the Summer Stars together with the earlier cycle, The Advent of
Galahad, and some later, unfinished poems, are available in Arthurian
Poets,edited by D. L. Dodds, and published in the United Kingdom by D.S.
Brewer(aka the Boydell Press) (1991).

The Figure of Beatrice

To Michal from Serge,
published by the Kent State University Press.

=================

Book Review: Charles Williams, edited by David Llewellyn Dodds
Reviewed by Eric Rauscher
http://www.mythsoc.org/cwaprev.html
reprint of Taliessin Through Logres and The Region of the Summer Stars.
The second part (uncollected and unpublished poems) is divided into The Advent
of Galahad and intermediate poems, with an introduction, and poems after
Taliessen Through Logres, again with an introduction.
Along withthis cycle are reprinted various poems published in Heroes and KIngs,
Three Plays, New English Poems (edited by Lascalles Abercrombie), and Time and
Tide.

David Llewellyn Dodds, editor, Charles Williams. Woodbridge, Suffolk: Boydell &
Brewer, 1991.

=================

A Charles Williams Reader
by Charles Williams
Edition:Hardcover

The Novels of Charles Williams by Thomas Howard


Charles Williams: Essential Writings in Spirituality and Theology by Charles
Williams, Charles Hefling (Editor)(Paperback)

The Place of the Lion by Charles Williams(Paperback)

All Hallow's Eve by Charles Williams(Hardcover)

The Figure of Beatrice: A Study in Dante by Charles Williams(Paperback)

The Greater Trumps by Charles W. Williams(Paperback)
Publisher: Wm. B. Eerdmans Publishing Co.; (June 26, 2000)

If I recall, I think there are seven novels by CW altogether.  Is that
correct?

Pax,

Mark



-----Original Message-----
From: Jonas Streich [mailto:vanguard98@...]
Sent: Saturday, November 01, 2003 12:31 PM
To: coinherence-l@yahoogroups.com
Subject: RE: [coinherence-l] Digest Number 748

Are there more novels than the 6 released by Eerdmans or am I just
reading that wrong?



Jonas



-----Original Message-----
From: Richard Sturch [mailto:RSturch@...]
Sent: Saturday, November 01, 2003 9:27 AM
To: INTERNET:coinherence-l@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [coinherence-l] Digest Number 748



I believe Regent College are publishing all four of the novels not
already
published by Eerdman's, and have already produced "The Descent of the
Dove".
         Richard Sturch.





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Yes, you are right.

  Shadows of Ecstasy
  War in Heaven
  Many Dimensions
  The Greater Trumps
  The Place of the Lion
  Descent into Hell
  All Hallows' Eve

  Olga

-----Original Message-----
From: Mark Steele <steele@...>
To: "'coinherence-l@yahoogroups.com'" <coinherence-l@yahoogroups.com>
Date: Mon, 3 Nov 2003 08:29:51 -0500
Subject: RE: [coinherence-l] Digest Number 748

>
> If I recall, I think there are seven novels by CW altogether.  Is that
> correct?
>
> Pax,
>
> Mark
>
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Jonas Streich [mailto:vanguard98@...]
> Sent: Saturday, November 01, 2003 12:31 PM
> To: coinherence-l@yahoogroups.com
> Subject: RE: [coinherence-l] Digest Number 748
>
> Are there more novels than the 6 released by Eerdmans or am I just
> reading that wrong?
>
>
>
> Jonas
>
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Richard Sturch [mailto:RSturch@...]
> Sent: Saturday, November 01, 2003 9:27 AM
> To: INTERNET:coinherence-l@yahoogroups.com
> Subject: [coinherence-l] Digest Number 748
>
>
>
> I believe Regent College are publishing all four of the novels not
> already
> published by Eerdman's, and have already produced "The Descent of the
> Dove".
>         Richard Sturch.
>
>
>
>
>
> Yahoo! Groups Sponsor
>
>
>
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>
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>
>
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> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
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>
>
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>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>
>

Before passing on from Chapter VII it may be useful to look a little further at
one of the two figures Charles Williams introduces us to on p100: Raymond Lully
and Ignatius Loyola.

Seraphim, in message 3671, has usefully reminded us how under-considered the
former has been when possible influences on Dante have been discussed:


Before Dante and perhaps under considered
all around is the wonderful Raimundo Lull
(or Lhull or whatever, Catalan) and
his book of the lover and the beloved
(here model is clearly Al Ghazali) well
but Lull is a very original person and
more a generator than a transmitter.


In E. Allison Peers, Fool of Love: The Life of Ramon Lull we read, regarding
Lull's key work Book of the Lover and the Beloved, that:



'Two statements made in Blanquerna as to the origin of the Book of the Lover and
the Beloved may well have been literally true. First, we are told that Moslem
sources have influenced its form. Blanquerna remembers a Saracen telling him of
"certain men called Sufis" who "have words of love and brief examples which give
to men great devotion; and these are words which demand exposition, and by the
exposition thereof the understanding soars aloft, and the will likewise soars,
and is increased in devotion".1 Secondly, the book is the outcome of actual
contemplation. Blanquerna is asked by a hermit in Rome to write him a manual of
spiritual exercises; he agrees to do so, but is unable to begin. So he resolves
to " give himself fervently to the adoration and contemplation of God, to the
end that in prayer God should show him the manner wherein he should make the
book and likewise the matter of it". And, while he is "carried away in spirit",
it "comes to his will" that his book should be rather different from what he had
intended.'

E. Allison Peers, Fool of Love: The Life of Ramon Lull, (London: SCM, 1946) p48

Similarly, in (Ed.) Bonner, Selected Works of Raymon Llull, p20 we



'see from Book iv of the Gentile that his knowledge of the Muslim religion was
reasonably sound; and his Book of the Lover and the Beloved was based expressly
on Sufi models;76 but the only Islamic author he mentions specifically, and in
whose case we can be sure that his contact came directly from the Arabic, was
al-Ghazzali.77 It was apparently during these years of intellectual
apprenticeship that he wrote a compendium (in Arabic; this version is now lost)
of al-Ghazzali's logic, which he then translated into Latin (under the title of
Compendium logicae Algazelis), and finally into Catalan verse (the Logica del
Gatzel).78 Aside from this early venture into the purely logical side of
al-Ghazzali's writings, there must have been other connections - one cannot help
thinking - with this Islamic thinker whose teachings had played a central part
in the spiritual life of the Almohads and whose doctrines were in essential ways
close to those of Llull.79
It was also, in all probability, towards the end of these nine years of
intellectual apprenticeship that he wrote the vast Book of Contemplation,80 also
first written in Arabic, which contains the germs of most of Llull's later
thought, and which surely constituted his first attempt at writing the "best
book in the world."81'

81 Cf. nn. 54 and 88. Hillg, p. 30, refers to it as "the greatest work he wrote
and one of the most extraordinary books of the Middle Ages." Batllori, Mon, p.
12, calls it the summa of medieval mysticism, comparable to Aquinas' theological
Summa and to Penyafort's summa of Canon Law. One can also follow a development
of Llull himself through the vast extension of this work (some million words),
from the more direct, personal style of the first books, to the algebraic
notation of the later books, a clear prefiguration of the Art. For an extended
analysis, see Ca I, 548-76, as well as Peers, pp. 43-81.'

Ramon Lull, Selected Works of Raymon Lull, Ed. And Trans. Anthony Bonner,
(Princeton NJ: Princeton UP, Vol II, 1985) pp 20-21

Bonner later writes that:

'Llull's mysticism is a remarkable blend of three very disparate elements:
Muslim, secular, and Christian. The first came to him from the Islamic mystics,
the Sufis, to whom he openly acknowledged his debt in the prologue to the Book
of the Lover and the Beloved, saying that they had "words of love and brief
examples1 that gave people great devotion" which he intended to use as a model.
He used not only the outward form of this model, but also some of the key
elements of its inner terminology...'

Ramon Lull, Selected Works of Raymon Lull, Ed. And Trans. Anthony Bonner,
(Princeton NJ: Princeton UP, Vol II, 1985) p1217

In a footnote, Bonner raises the possibility of another source for Lull being
"the most renowned of all Sufis, the Spanish-born Ibn 'Arabi (1165-1240)."





[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

You're right, I miscounted.  There are the 7 novels.  Nevertheless, the
original quote "I believe Regent College are publishing all four of the
novels not already published by Eerdman's" -- really threw me off.  All
my copies are Eerdmans except for "Shadows of Ecstasy" which I've only
been able to find in an old HC.  Can anyone clarify on the Regent
College comment?

Jonas



-----Original Message-----
From: Mark Steele [mailto:steele@...]
Sent: Monday, November 03, 2003 8:30 AM
To: 'coinherence-l@yahoogroups.com'
Subject: RE: [coinherence-l] Digest Number 748



If I recall, I think there are seven novels by CW altogether.  Is that
correct?

Pax,

Mark



-----Original Message-----
From: Jonas Streich [mailto:vanguard98@...]
Sent: Saturday, November 01, 2003 12:31 PM
To: coinherence-l@yahoogroups.com
Subject: RE: [coinherence-l] Digest Number 748

Are there more novels than the 6 released by Eerdmans or am I just
reading that wrong?



Jonas



-----Original Message-----
From: Richard Sturch [mailto:RSturch@...]
Sent: Saturday, November 01, 2003 9:27 AM
To: INTERNET:coinherence-l@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [coinherence-l] Digest Number 748



I believe Regent College are publishing all four of the novels not
already
published by Eerdman's, and have already produced "The Descent of the
Dove".
         Richard Sturch.





Yahoo! Groups Sponsor



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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

I'm a Dante un-initiate.  Does anyone have any recommendations for a first
time reader.  I've managed to find all three volumes of the translation by
Dorothy Sayers.  Should I read the poem straight through and ignore the
commentary?  Should I read the commentary too as I'm doing it?  Thanks.

Pax,

Mark


-----Original Message-----
From: Allan Dewar [mailto:AMDewar@...]
Sent: Monday, November 03, 2003 6:37 PM
To: Coinherence-L@Yahoogroups. Com
Subject: [coinherence-l] The Figure of Beatrice Chapter 7.doc

Before passing on from Chapter VII it may be useful to look a little further
at one of the two figures Charles Williams introduces us to on p100: Raymond
Lully and Ignatius Loyola.

Seraphim, in message 3671, has usefully reminded us how under-considered the
former has been when possible influences on Dante have been discussed:


Before Dante and perhaps under considered
all around is the wonderful Raimundo Lull
(or Lhull or whatever, Catalan) and
his book of the lover and the beloved
(here model is clearly Al Ghazali) well
but Lull is a very original person and
more a generator than a transmitter.


In E. Allison Peers, Fool of Love: The Life of Ramon Lull we read, regarding
Lull's key work Book of the Lover and the Beloved, that:



'Two statements made in Blanquerna as to the origin of the Book of the Lover
and the Beloved may well have been literally true. First, we are told that
Moslem sources have influenced its form. Blanquerna remembers a Saracen
telling him of "certain men called Sufis" who "have words of love and brief
examples which give to men great devotion; and these are words which demand
exposition, and by the exposition thereof the understanding soars aloft, and
the will likewise soars, and is increased in devotion".1 Secondly, the book
is the outcome of actual contemplation. Blanquerna is asked by a hermit in
Rome to write him a manual of spiritual exercises; he agrees to do so, but
is unable to begin. So he resolves to " give himself fervently to the
adoration and contemplation of God, to the end that in prayer God should
show him the manner wherein he should make the book and likewise the matter
of it". And, while he is "carried away in spirit", it "comes to his will"
that his book should be rather different from what he had intended.'

E. Allison Peers, Fool of Love: The Life of Ramon Lull, (London: SCM, 1946)
p48

Similarly, in (Ed.) Bonner, Selected Works of Raymon Llull, p20 we



'see from Book iv of the Gentile that his knowledge of the Muslim religion
was reasonably sound; and his Book of the Lover and the Beloved was based
expressly on Sufi models;76 but the only Islamic author he mentions
specifically, and in whose case we can be sure that his contact came
directly from the Arabic, was al-Ghazzali.77 It was apparently during these
years of intellectual apprenticeship that he wrote a compendium (in Arabic;
this version is now lost) of al-Ghazzali's logic, which he then translated
into Latin (under the title of Compendium logicae Algazelis), and finally
into Catalan verse (the Logica del Gatzel).78 Aside from this early venture
into the purely logical side of al-Ghazzali's writings, there must have been
other connections - one cannot help thinking - with this Islamic thinker
whose teachings had played a central part in the spiritual life of the
Almohads and whose doctrines were in essential ways close to those of
Llull.79
It was also, in all probability, towards the end of these nine years of
intellectual apprenticeship that he wrote the vast Book of Contemplation,80
also first written in Arabic, which contains the germs of most of Llull's
later thought, and which surely constituted his first attempt at writing the
"best book in the world."81'

81 Cf. nn. 54 and 88. Hillg, p. 30, refers to it as "the greatest work he
wrote and one of the most extraordinary books of the Middle Ages." Batllori,
Mon, p. 12, calls it the summa of medieval mysticism, comparable to Aquinas'
theological Summa and to Penyafort's summa of Canon Law. One can also follow
a development of Llull himself through the vast extension of this work (some
million words), from the more direct, personal style of the first books, to
the algebraic notation of the later books, a clear prefiguration of the Art.
For an extended analysis, see Ca I, 548-76, as well as Peers, pp. 43-81.'

Ramon Lull, Selected Works of Raymon Lull, Ed. And Trans. Anthony Bonner,
(Princeton NJ: Princeton UP, Vol II, 1985) pp 20-21

Bonner later writes that:

'Llull's mysticism is a remarkable blend of three very disparate elements:
Muslim, secular, and Christian. The first came to him from the Islamic
mystics, the Sufis, to whom he openly acknowledged his debt in the prologue
to the Book of the Lover and the Beloved, saying that they had "words of
love and brief examples1 that gave people great devotion" which he intended
to use as a model. He used not only the outward form of this model, but also
some of the key elements of its inner terminology...'

Ramon Lull, Selected Works of Raymon Lull, Ed. And Trans. Anthony Bonner,
(Princeton NJ: Princeton UP, Vol II, 1985) p1217

In a footnote, Bonner raises the possibility of another source for Lull
being "the most renowned of all Sufis, the Spanish-born Ibn 'Arabi
(1165-1240)."





[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]





Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/

In general, I usually suggest folks read any work straight through
before getting into commentary since the constant switching from text to
commentary really messes up the flow of the artwork.  On the other hand,
something like the DC makes so many references to persons and issues
contemorary with Dante that we may be ignorant of that some commentary
may be necessary.  If your goal is to really study the thing, I guess I
would say read it all through with no commentary and then go back.
You're probably going to need more than one pass through to get it all
anyways, and it would be a shame to miss out on the aesthetic experience
of experiencing the story unencumbered.

Todd



-----Original Message-----
Message: 5
    Date: Tue, 4 Nov 2003 08:48:12 -0500
    From: Mark Steele <steele@...>
Subject: RE: The Figure of Beatrice Chapter 7.doc

I'm a Dante un-initiate.  Does anyone have any recommendations for a
first time reader.  I've managed to find all three volumes of the
translation by Dorothy Sayers.  Should I read the poem straight through
and ignore the commentary?  Should I read the commentary too as I'm
doing it?  Thanks.

Pax,

Mark

I'm sure there are other equally good sources, but anyone who wants a quick
list of CW's 7 novels - with reminder notes about which one is which - or
of his poetry books, or of the works of the other major Inklings, is
welcome to look at my "Beginner's Bibliography of the Inklings":

http://www.mythsoc.org/inklings.html

- David Bratman

I have a Master's degree in Medieval History, and I read (and got a
lot from!)  the Sayers' commentaries- CW's Dante book may not be best
for starters.

DDD

--- In coinherence-l@yahoogroups.com, Mark Steele <steele@m...> wrote:
> I'm a Dante un-initiate.  Does anyone have any recommendations for
a first
> time reader.  I've managed to find all three volumes of the
translation by
> Dorothy Sayers.  Should I read the poem straight through and ignore
the
> commentary?  Should I read the commentary too as I'm doing it?
Thanks.

On Tuesday, November 4, 2003, at 07:48  AM, Mark Steele wrote:

> I'm a Dante un-initiate.  Does anyone have any recommendations for a
> first
> time reader.  I've managed to find all three volumes of the
> translation by
> Dorothy Sayers.  Should I read the poem straight through and ignore the
> commentary?  Should I read the commentary too as I'm doing it?

First, you'll notice I changed the subject line since this might turn
into an extended topic and I don't want to muck up the Figure of
Beatrice discussion.

I am probably not a whole lot more initiated into the world of Dante
than you, Mark, though I have studied poetry quite a bit at least gone
a bit past scratching the surface of Medieval history and philosophy.
That being said, my recommendation is that you absolutely should read
notes, commentaries, and anything else you can get your hands on the
first time through.

There are two parts to translating Dante: translating the language is
one, and translating the ideas and histories behind those words is the
other. Some people already speak Italian, so they don't need a
translation (though maybe help with the more archaic form of the
language, from what I understand). Some people know medieval Italian
history and philosophy so well that they don't need the commentary.
Then there are the other 99% of us. We need help, or we'll still be
wandering around the dark wood while Dante is meeting Beatrice.

Ideally, you would go back and read it again after that and then you
could eschew the commentaries for the sake of just enjoying the
language and the story. For an excellent explanation of this approach,
and a great introduction to Medieval and Renaissance literature in
general which will really help in reading Dante, find a copy of The
Divine Image, by C.S. Lewis. It was actually his textbook for his Intro
to Medieval and Renaissance literature course, but I guarantee you it's
a much better (and easier) read than any other text book you've been
subjected to, er, I mean, had to read for a class.

One more thing, in a previous discussion on this list Dorothy Sayers
was not at all on the top of the recommended translators. I am not
qualified to compare, since I haven't read many others, but I will go
so far as to say this: I think her commentary is top notch. Even if you
went with another translation, I think you should keep Sayers at hand
for the commentary.

What do the more qualified folks have to say on these issues? I am
happy to be contradicted, since many of you will know more than I. For
instance, I haven't actually finished the Comedy yet, hence my lack of
participation in the FoB discussion, since I am waiting to read that
until I finish the Paradiso.

Which is going to take some time, since I went back to read the Inferno
again because I found a really fantastic translation. It's by an Irish
poet named Ciaran Carson. Have any of you heard of it or read it? He
keeps the heroic couplet structure, but is not at all awkward or
stilted in it the way some other translators are (I believe that was
one of the criticisms of Sayers). What he does do that some may not
like is throw out the obligation to translate 'literally'. Dante used
colloquialisms and ideology that are utterly alien to us now, and some
passages are vague enough that no-one agrees on what they mean, so
Carson basically makes the poem his own. He aims for (and achieves, I
think) ideological and poetic accuracy instead of linguistic or literal
accuracy. The result is something that seems much closer to what Dante
was doing than what most translators end up with, especially
considering that Dante wrote in the colloquial Italian rather than
Latin.  I think the difference is in having a poet write the
translation rather than a scholar.

Any other opinions?

Under the Mercy,
-Eric Vance Curl

>  He
> keeps the heroic couplet structure

Argh. It's not a couplet, is it? But the rhyme scheme he uses (aba bcb
cdc ded...) is called a heroic something or other. Someone please
correct me.

Under the Mercy,
-evc

Thanks for the advice and comments.

Pax,

Mark


-----Original Message-----
From: the Curl [mailto:curl@...]
Sent: Tuesday, November 04, 2003 1:14 PM
To: coinherence-l@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [coinherence-l] how to read Dante the 1st time


On Tuesday, November 4, 2003, at 07:48  AM, Mark Steele wrote:

> I'm a Dante un-initiate.  Does anyone have any recommendations for a
> first
> time reader.  I've managed to find all three volumes of the
> translation by
> Dorothy Sayers.  Should I read the poem straight through and ignore the
> commentary?  Should I read the commentary too as I'm doing it?

First, you'll notice I changed the subject line since this might turn
into an extended topic and I don't want to muck up the Figure of
Beatrice discussion.

I am probably not a whole lot more initiated into the world of Dante
than you, Mark, though I have studied poetry quite a bit at least gone
a bit past scratching the surface of Medieval history and philosophy.
That being said, my recommendation is that you absolutely should read
notes, commentaries, and anything else you can get your hands on the
first time through.

There are two parts to translating Dante: translating the language is
one, and translating the ideas and histories behind those words is the
other. Some people already speak Italian, so they don't need a
translation (though maybe help with the more archaic form of the
language, from what I understand). Some people know medieval Italian
history and philosophy so well that they don't need the commentary.
Then there are the other 99% of us. We need help, or we'll still be
wandering around the dark wood while Dante is meeting Beatrice.

Ideally, you would go back and read it again after that and then you
could eschew the commentaries for the sake of just enjoying the
language and the story. For an excellent explanation of this approach,
and a great introduction to Medieval and Renaissance literature in
general which will really help in reading Dante, find a copy of The
Divine Image, by C.S. Lewis. It was actually his textbook for his Intro
to Medieval and Renaissance literature course, but I guarantee you it's
a much better (and easier) read than any other text book you've been
subjected to, er, I mean, had to read for a class.

One more thing, in a previous discussion on this list Dorothy Sayers
was not at all on the top of the recommended translators. I am not
qualified to compare, since I haven't read many others, but I will go
so far as to say this: I think her commentary is top notch. Even if you
went with another translation, I think you should keep Sayers at hand
for the commentary.

What do the more qualified folks have to say on these issues? I am
happy to be contradicted, since many of you will know more than I. For
instance, I haven't actually finished the Comedy yet, hence my lack of
participation in the FoB discussion, since I am waiting to read that
until I finish the Paradiso.

Which is going to take some time, since I went back to read the Inferno
again because I found a really fantastic translation. It's by an Irish
poet named Ciaran Carson. Have any of you heard of it or read it? He
keeps the heroic couplet structure, but is not at all awkward or
stilted in it the way some other translators are (I believe that was
one of the criticisms of Sayers). What he does do that some may not
like is throw out the obligation to translate 'literally'. Dante used
colloquialisms and ideology that are utterly alien to us now, and some
passages are vague enough that no-one agrees on what they mean, so
Carson basically makes the poem his own. He aims for (and achieves, I
think) ideological and poetic accuracy instead of linguistic or literal
accuracy. The result is something that seems much closer to what Dante
was doing than what most translators end up with, especially
considering that Dante wrote in the colloquial Italian rather than
Latin.  I think the difference is in having a poet write the
translation rather than a scholar.

Any other opinions?

Under the Mercy,
-Eric Vance Curl





Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/

I like very much what you have to say about reading Dante--and about
Lewis' book except the title is The Discarded Image.

Sarah Thomson

On Tuesday, November 4, 2003, at 01:36  PM, Sarah E Thomson wrote:

> the title is The Discarded Image

Argh again. I really have to proof read my emails better.

Especially since the title very eloquently communicates the ideology
behind the book, which is almost a work of philosophy in and of itself
as much as it is a work of literary criticism. Of course, the correct
title also helps if you want to actually find the book.

-Eric Vance Curl

The Figure of Beatrice pp107-8

VIII
THE INFERNO
Now entertain conjecture of a time
When creeping murmur and the poring dark
Fill the wide vessel of the universe . . .

The image of a wood has appeared often enough in English verse. It has indeed
appeared so often that it has gathered a good deal of verse into itself; so that
it has become a great forest where, with long leagues of changing green between
them, strange episodes of high poetry have place. Thus in one part there are the
lovers of a midsummer night, or by day a duke and his followers, and in another
men behind branches so that the wood seems moving, and in another a girl
separated from her two lordly young brothers, and in another a poet listening to
a nightingale but rather dreaming richly of the grand art than there exploring
it, and there are other inhabitants, belonging even more closely to the wood,
dryads, fairies, an enchanter's rout. The forest itself has different names in
different tongues - Westermain, Arden, Birnam, Broceliande; and in places there
are separate trees named, such as that on the outskirts against which a young
Northern poet saw a spectral wanderer leaning, or, in the unexplored centre of
which only rumours reach even poetry, Igdrasil of one myth, or the Trees of
Knowledge and Life of another. So that indeed the whole earth seems to become
this one enormous forest, and our longest and most stable civilizations are only
clearings in the midst of it.
The use of such an extended image is to allow the verse of those various 'parts
of the wood' to point distantly towards each other, without the danger of too
hasty comparisons. The 'amplitude of mind' which Wordsworth ascribed to the
Imagination is thus communicated. We become aware that so much as we know of
poetry is not all; a happier generation may discover an even more intense life
in the relation of one part of it to another, but it will not serve ours to rush
in with false ingenuities. We must wait yet; the unifying of our imaginations is
an arduous business, and national committees will not help, not even academic
committees, let alone those which some think more suitable - men of the world,
business men, politicians, journalists. The academics may petrify in the forest,
but as a general rule the others have not even seen the forest. Yet perhaps
before we can unify the world, we shall have to unify the poetic imagination of
the world, and the best way towards that is, first, to be acquainted with some
part of the forest, and then slowly to push on towards other parts. He who
could, at the end of a hard life, have done something towards the study of the
living forest in European verse alone, might have fulfilled his function, and
deserved well of the Republic - or of the Emperor.

------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Now entertain conjecture of a time
When creeping murmur and the poring dark
Fill the wide vessel of the universe . . .


Williams quotes lines from Shakespeare's Henry V Act IV Prologue.

'Thus in one part there are the lovers of a midsummer night, or by day a duke
and his followers'

Shakespeare, A Midsummer Night's Dream

'and in another men behind branches so that the wood seems moving'

Shakespeare, Macbeth

  'and in another a girl separated from her two lordly young brothers'

Shakespeare, Cymbeline

  'and in another a poet listening to a nightingale but rather dreaming richly of
the grand art than there exploring it'

Keats, Ode to a Nightingale


'and there are other inhabitants, belonging even more closely to the wood,
dryads, fairies, an enchanter's rout.'

A rout is "an assemblage or company esp. of revelers or rioters" (Concise
Oxford). We may similarly speak of a "riot of colours".

'Westermain, Arden, Birnam, Broceliande'

The first reference is found in George Meredith's poem "The Woods of
Westermain", which concludes with the words:
...And you ask where you may be,
In what reek of a lair
Given to bones and ogre-broods:
And they yell you Where.
Enter these enchanted woods,
You who dare.


Arden forest is the setting for Shakespeare's As You Like It.

Birnam is the wood which comes to Dunsinane in Shakespeare's Macbeth.

Broceliande is the name of a magic forest in ancient Brittany, and appears in
Arthurian legend as the place where the Lady of the Lake encountered Merlin.
'and in places there are separate trees named, such as that on the outskirts
against which a young Northern poet saw a spectral wanderer leaning'
The 'young Northern poet' is William Wordsworth.
'or, in the unexplored centre of which only rumours reach even poetry, Igdrasil
of one myth, or the Trees of Knowledge and Life of another.'

Igdrasil  or Yggdrasil is:
"The World Tree in ancient Scandinavian mythology. Its branches spread over the
whole world. Under its roots are wells of wisdom, from which the Norns draw
water, and by which the gods deliver their dooms. Thomas Carlyle said that the
tree 'has its roots deep down in the Death-kingdoms, among the oldest dead dust
of men, and with its boughs reaches always beyond the stars, and in all times
and places is one and the same Life-tree.'"
John Ferguson, An Illustrated Encyclopaedia of Mysticism, (London: Thames and
Hudson, 1976) p212
In his chapter, "The Tree in the Midst" in his Symbolism of the Cross, René
Guénon refers to "the ash Ygdrasil, which is one of the forms of the World
Tree."
See Ch. "The Tree in the Midst", René Guénon , Symbolism of the Cross, (London:
Luzac & Co, 1975) p50 n3. This work, and other René Guénon titles including The
Esoterism of Dante, is now available in new translation from Sophia Perennis:
the Serious Seekers website will have details of Sophia Perennis titles.

'Esoterically, the tree-symbol is the universal centre that offers the fruits of
diverse possibilities; by its trunk, which is vertical, it suggests ascension
and thereby also descent; by its branches, it acts as a ladder. In addition, the
tree provides shelter against the heat of the sun: it gives shade, and in this
aspect it suggests a place of refuge, safety, rest, freshness; shade is one of
the gifts that the blessed enjoy in the Moslem Paradise. But the most important
aspects of the symbolism of the tree are without doubt its axial position and
its fruits.
'Genesis tells us that at the centre of the Earthly Paradise grew the tree of
Life, and it mentions another tree, namely that of the knowledge of Good and
Evil, the fruit of which was forbidden to man. The central tree is that of
synthetic or unitive knowledge; this consists in seeing accidents, or
contingencies, in Substance or in relation to Substance. The forbidden tree is
that of separative knowledge; this consists in seeing accidents outside of or
apart from Substance and in forgetting Substance, as though accidents were
autonomous substances, which amounts in practice to denying the one and only
Substance; this was the sin of the first human couple.'
(From Ch. "The Primordial Tree" in Frithjof Schuon, Esoterism as Principle and
as Way, (Bedfont: Perennial Books pbk, 1981) p79)
"The 'amplitude of mind' which Wordsworth ascribed to the Imagination is thus
communicated."

Williams is referring to Book XIII of The Prelude, where William Wordsworth
wrote that Imagination:
"is but another name for absolute strength / And clearest insight, amplitude of
mind / And reason in her most exalted mood."

'The academics may petrify in the forest, but as a general rule the others have
not even seen the forest.'
A wonderful line from Williams with an irresistible visual image, and a
wonderful warning of the perennial academic and fashionable temptations.
Meanwhile, Professor T.A. Shippey writes of a critic of Tolkien who "confessed
to me in private, in the lift taking us out of BBC House after a radio debate,
that he had never actually read The Lord of the Rings which he had just been
attacking."
T.A. Shippey, J.R.R. Tolkien, Author of the Century, (London: Harper Collins,
2000) xxxiii.



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

A current  situation involving modern Moslem/Sufi mystical love poetry got
posted on the BBC.  I'll try to paste the link.  UTM, Stewart

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/3242245.stm


--
There are few problems in life that cannot be solved through the use of books.
--H. Allen Smith, "Larks in the Popcorn"

It's called "terza rima."  As you note the rhyme scheme links the
stanzas together with the middle rhyme of one stanza rhymes with the
first and third lines of the next.  It is definitely a scheme suited to
the rhyme-rich language of Italian, but pure murder in a language like
English.  For Ciaran Carson to have maintained a true terza rima through
the whole text with any kind of flow is an astounding accomplishment.

-tct

-----Original Message-----
From: coinherence-l@yahoogroups.com
[mailto:coinherence-l@yahoogroups.com]
Sent: Wednesday, November 05, 2003 8:24 AM
To: coinherence-l@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [coinherence-l] Digest Number 752

He keeps the heroic couplet structure,
[snip]
Argh. It's not a couplet, is it? But the rhyme scheme he uses (aba bcb
cdc ded...) is called a heroic something or other. Someone please
correct me.

Under the Mercy,
-evc

That Ciaran Carson name sounds oddly familiar.  My favorite translation
is by John Ciardi (see the similarity).  He doesn't manage a complete
"terza rima" format but he does manage some sort of rhyming format.
Can't remember offhand how he did do it specifically and my copies are
boxed up right now.



I think he managed it somewhere along the lines of:



1

2

1



3

4

3



or something similar.  Not perfect, but it still sounds really good for
English.  His copies also have great notes included on every page and
some handy dandy maps.



Jonas



-----Original Message-----
From: Todd C. Truffin [mailto:tctruffin@...]
Sent: Wednesday, November 05, 2003 10:28 AM
To: coinherence-l@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [coinherence-l] RE: how to read Dante the 1st time



It's called "terza rima."  As you note the rhyme scheme links the
stanzas together with the middle rhyme of one stanza rhymes with the
first and third lines of the next.  It is definitely a scheme suited to
the rhyme-rich language of Italian, but pure murder in a language like
English.  For Ciaran Carson to have maintained a true terza rima through
the whole text with any kind of flow is an astounding accomplishment.

-tct

-----Original Message-----
From: coinherence-l@yahoogroups.com
[mailto:coinherence-l@yahoogroups.com]
Sent: Wednesday, November 05, 2003 8:24 AM
To: coinherence-l@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [coinherence-l] Digest Number 752

He keeps the heroic couplet structure,
[snip]
Argh. It's not a couplet, is it? But the rhyme scheme he uses (aba bcb
cdc ded...) is called a heroic something or other. Someone please
correct me.

Under the Mercy,
-evc








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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

The phrase evc wants is "terza rima". It is not often used in English -
though Louis MacNeice used it in "Autumn Sequel".
         Richard Sturch.

The Figure of Beatrice pp108-9
The Inferno

There is, in that forest, as deep as any poet has yet penetrated towards the
centre, one especially wild part; worse than anything known in verse even by
Spenser or Milton. There is a valley, of great trees and tangled shrubs,
'selvaggia e aspra e forte - savage and rough and strong' where no path can be
kept; the true path (through the forest or to the centre of the forest - it is
perhaps the same thing, in Westermain or Broceliande) does not lead through it,
but side paths do, less and less easy, more and more dark. A man, on his journey
through the strange growths of the forest, may inattentively turn aside down
those paths; perhaps many men do, and perhaps some die there, for the sense of
the valley is like death itself. One man indeed, finding himself in it, said in
so many words that no mortal ever came from it alive -'che non lasciò già mai
persona viva.' The man was Dante Alighieri; he was thirty-five years old - 'net
mezzo del cammin di nostra vita.' He had himself been full of an interior
slumber when he was misled by the deceits of the forest, and there  - in such a
dangerous gloom - he  're-found himself - mi ritrovai.'
Some translations give only 'I found myself in a ... wood'. But the original is
more intense - 'I came to myself again.' He is suddenly re-aware of himself in
this misery, and the misery is so great that he would not willingly recall it
now, except to tell of other things, of the good that is hidden in the wild
maze. At the end of the valley the ground rises before him into a high hill. The
dawn is already lightening the height. It is, as we learn afterwards, a hill
which is mysteriously called 'è principio e cagion di tutta gioia - the source
and occasion of all joy' (Inf. I, 78). There is a sense of dream deepening into
nightmare over the whole of this opening of the Commedia; the sensation is
familiar enough - one is caught in a twisted helplessness, with some lovely
place of escape just near and open, and then some hindrance, perhaps some
horror, interferes. What here interferes, as Dante, after resting a little,
begins to mount the slope, is, first of all, a beast like a leopard, dappled,
light, and swift. It does not attack him but it wanders in front of him, so that
he cannot get by. In seven lines Dante gathers 'that beast with the gay skin'
into a union with a universal freshness of beauty - 'The time was early morning,
and the sun was rising, with those stars which were with it when the Divine Love
first bade those lovelinesses move, so that the hour of the time and the sweet
season moved me to good hope of escape from the gay-skinned beast' (Inf. I,
37-45). His heart is high, therefore, and hope has returned when he suddenly
discerns two other creatures - a lion so hungry and fierce that the very air
seems shaken with fear, coming terribly against him, and a lean she-wolf.
These three beasts are habitually interpreted as lechery, pride, and
covetousness; so no doubt they are. But they are something more. They are the
powers of the three periods of life which Dante called Adolescence, Youth (or
Manhood), and Age. In the Convivio he had spoken of the adolescent who 'would
not be able to follow the right way in the wandering wood of this life, if his
elders did not show it him'. He had been shown, and had not followed; now he has
suddenly come to himself in a region (more austere even than any in the Vita)
from which there is indeed no return. Before him he sees the sun-lit slope of a
hill, the timeless hill of the good, and the images of all the three periods of
perilous life drive him back. The greatest invention of all three is the
She-wolf. This is Age, lean with infinite craving, who has brought sorrow to
many, and so frightens Dante that he loses hope of the height; he turns and runs
back; his little life is haunted and hunted away into the terrible wood - 'like
one who has willingly taken his gains, and when time brings loss, he weeps and
laments,' so he, driven back, step by step, 'la dove  'l sol face - to where the
sun is silent' (I, 60).
------------------------------------------------------

"The man was Dante Alighieri; he was thirty-five years old - 'net mezzo del
cammin di nostra vita.'"

'Midway in our life's journey' of threescore years and ten (Psalm 90: 10), in
the year 1300.

'In seven lines Dante gathers 'that beast with the gay skin' into a union with a
universal freshness of beauty - 'The time was early...'

There is a thrill and a shudder here, as Williams seems to almost conflate what
John Ciardi calls "the sun...the Symbol of Divine Illumination" with the
leopard. But, as Williams will show us on p123, "The Leopard is pleasantly
dappled, dark and bright, though in the end it will become the She-wolf...".

"These three beasts"

The three beasts are found in Jeremiah 5: 6.
Jeremiah 5: 5-9 reads:

5 I will get me unto the great men and will speak unto them; for they have known
the way of the LORD and the judgment of their God: but these have altogether
broken the yoke and burst the bonds.
6 Wherefore a lion out of the forest shall slay them, and a wolf of the evenings
shall spoil them, a leopard shall watch over their cities: every one that goeth
out thence shall be torn in pieces: because their transgressions are many, and
their backslidings are increased.
7  How shall I pardon thee for this? thy children have forsaken me, and sworn by
them that are no gods: when I had fed them to the full, they then committed
adultery, and assembled themselves by troops in the harlots' houses.
8 They were as fed horses in the morning: every one neighed after his
neighbour's wife.
9 Shall I not visit for these things? saith the LORD : and shall not my soul be
avenged on such a nation as this?

'These three beasts are habitually interpreted as lechery, pride, and
covetousness; so no doubt they are.'

Dorothy Sayers provides an excellent commentary on the images:
'The Images.
The Dark Wood is the image of Sin or Error - not so much of any specific act of
sin or intellectual perversion as of that spiritual condition called "hardness
of heart", in which sinfulness has so taken possession of the soul as to render
it incapable of turning to God, or even knowing which way to turn.

The Mountain, which on the mystical level is the image of the Soul's Ascent to
God, is thus on the moral level the image of Repentance, by which the sinner
returns to God. It can be ascended directly from "the right road", but not from
the Dark Wood, because there the soul's cherished sins have become, as it were,
externalized, and appear to it like demons or "beasts" with a will and power of
their own, blocking all progress. Once lost in the Dark Wood, a man can only
escape by so descending into himself that he sees his sin, not as an external
obstacle, but as the will to chaos and death within him (Hell). Only when he has
"died to sin" can he repent and purge it. Mount Purgatory and the Mountain of
Canto I are, therefore, really one and the same mountain, as seen on the far
side, and on this side, of the "death unto sin".

The Beasts. These are the images of sin. They may be identified with Lust,
Pride, and Avarice respectively, or with the sins of Youth, Manhood, and Age;
but they are perhaps best thought of as the images of the three types of sin
which, if not repented, land the soul in one or other of the three main
divisions of Hell (v. Canto XI).
The gay Leopard is the image of the self-indulgent sins - Incontinence; the
fierce Lion, of the violent sins - Bestiality; the She-Wolf of the malicious
sins, which involve Fraud.'

Dante, The Divine Comedy: Hell, trans Dorothy L. Sayers, (London: Penguin
Classics pbk, 1973), p75; see also the sins of the leopard on p84; the sins of
the lion on p122; the sins of the wolf on p264; the section-map of hell on p138
and her notes on pp139-141.

In Ciardi see pp27-32 and his notes on the symbolisms of the beasts on pp108-9.

Dante, The Inferno, trans John Ciardi, (NY: Mentor Classic pbk, 1960).

The Concise Oxford defines 'incontinent' as 'wanting in self-restraint (esp. in
regard to sexual appetite); unable to hold in something  (of secrets, tongue,
urine etc.). Lewis and Williams use the term in its first meaning: not
restraining the passions or appetites, not the medical one. (We need to assume
when discussing the three types of sins and the sins of the leopard that even
the well educated may be familiar with the medical sense only).

"But they are something more. They are the powers of the three periods of life
which Dante called Adolescence, Youth (or Manhood), and Age. In the Convivio he
had spoken of the adolescent who 'would not be able to follow the right way in
the wandering wood of this life, if his elders did not show it him'."


We hesitate to show the right way to our adolescents, lest we bind the bird in
flight, but the worst - full of passionate intensity - have no such qualms.

The academic temptation is to read poetry as prose, and the way to read Charles
Williams is in the spirit and poetry of his writing, so if we have our own copy
of the Figure of Beatrice we must not stop here but read on:

It is important to grasp this very great image - the man emerging from a
death-like perdition; the sun over the hill...








[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Anyone else here read Dan Brown (The Da Vinci Code, Angels & Demons, etc.)?
I have to say that, although I consider myself a completely orthodox Roman
Catholic, I enjoyed The Da Vinci Code immensely.  It is a very enjoyable
novel.  Unfortunately, it is being coupled in the media with those who take
the underlying story as fact rather than fiction (eg St. Mary Magdalene as
Jesus' wife and mother of his, now hidden, bloodline protected by the
Knights Templar and the Priory of Sion, yada, yada, yada).  Makes a good
read as fiction but is, shall we say, extremely lacking in evidence, logic,
and common sense as a theory of history.

Why can't some orthodox Christian write a novel that well though? I like
Lewis and CW but Lewis seems almost child-like in comparison with Brown and
CW seems stilted and lacking in detail and complexity.  Probably more a
product of literature in their time then any inability on their part.

The online Da Vinci Code scavenger hunts are quite fun.  A colleague of mine
and I solved both of them.

Any opinions?

Pax,

Mark


======================================
Mark D. Steele, PE, CCE
Vice President and Consulting Engineer
MDC Systems, Inc.

steele@...
http://www.mdcsystems.com

NEW ADDRESS
300 Berwyn Park
Suite 115
Berwyn, PA 19312-1179
p. 610.640.9600 ext.41
f. 610.640.9609
 

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--- Mark Steele <steele@...> wrote:
> Anyone else here read Dan Brown (The Da Vinci Code,
> Angels & Demons, etc.)?
> I have to say that, although I consider myself a
> completely orthodox Roman
> Catholic, I enjoyed The Da Vinci Code immensely.  It
> is a very enjoyable
> novel.  Unfortunately, it is being coupled in the
> media with those who take
> the underlying story as fact rather than fiction (eg
> St. Mary Magdalene as
> Jesus' wife and mother of his, now hidden, bloodline
> protected by the
> Knights Templar and the Priory of Sion, yada, yada,
> yada).  Makes a good
> read as fiction but is, shall we say, extremely
> lacking in evidence, logic,
> and common sense as a theory of history.

Yes, not to mention that while he partially accurately
portrays some of the Council of Nicea, to serve his
ends he piles in a bunch of nonsense and ignores other
historical facts (such as a couple years later
Constantine was exhiling many of those -- like
Athanasius -- who supported the divinity of Jesus.

> Why can't some orthodox Christian write a novel that
> well though? I like
> Lewis and CW but Lewis seems almost child-like in
> comparison with Brown and
> CW seems stilted and lacking in detail and
> complexity.  Probably more a
> product of literature in their time then any
> inability on their part.

It's interesting that we have different reactions to
the Da Vinci Code, I found the writing and the real
plot, with its artifices, thoroughly pedestrian and
relying on some "lazy" plot devices to pad the length
of the story.

It was the historical background, which he got both
wrong and right -- the wrong parts to skew the story
the way he wanted it -- were the main interesting
things about it, even though the Jesus bloodline is
pure hokum.

As to orthodox christians writing good books -- what
genre do you want to discuss?  There are many
contemporary writers who are (I would assume) orthodox
(I assume you mean orthodox as opposed to heterodox
rather than Eastern Orthodox) in their Christianity.
Some generally don't use christian history as a
backdrop, some do.  Were you thinking of that kind of
element which Dan Brown brings in the DaVinci Code, or
were you thinking of people who just write well?

(SNIP)
> Any opinions?

See above.  ;)

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I am reading Angels and daemons now, I'm about half way through it and it's
great fun reading but yes obviously the facts are incorrect. But knowing they
are makes it all the more interesting in that one can try to pick out what
might be or not, accurate.

John

When your lovers in a dangerous time
sometimes your made to feel as if your loves a crime
but nothing worth having comes without some kind of fight
got to kick at the darkness till it bleeds day light

---- Bruce Cockbrun


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Blake wrote:  <<It's interesting that we have different reactions to
the Da Vinci Code, I found the writing and the real
plot, with its artifices, thoroughly pedestrian and
relying on some "lazy" plot devices to pad the length
of the story.

It was the historical background, which he got both
wrong and right -- the wrong parts to skew the story
the way he wanted it -- were the main interesting
things about it, even though the Jesus bloodline is
pure hokum.

As to orthodox christians writing good books -- what
genre do you want to discuss?  There are many
contemporary writers who are (I would assume) orthodox
(I assume you mean orthodox as opposed to heterodox
rather than Eastern Orthodox) in their Christianity.
Some generally don't use christian history as a
backdrop, some do.  Were you thinking of that kind of
element which Dan Brown brings in the DaVinci Code, or
were you thinking of people who just write well?    >>

Yes, I meant orthodox as opposed to heterodox.  I was thinking of "that kind
of element which Dan Brown brings in the DaVinci Code".  I'm not sure
exactly what that element is but it would seem to be almost a similar genre
to what CW was trying to accomplish at times yet in a complex, layered,
manner.  There is another book that I've read recently that has that same
"element" but without the supernatural. It focuses on a mystery, an old
painting, and a chess game and it's called The Flanders Panel by Arturo
Perez-Reverte.  There's a certain complexity that seems to give depth to the
plot.  I'm not sure if I'm describing it correctly.

I just finished re-reading War in Heaven last night.  CW's subject matter,
with that added depth of complexity, would make a great novel and a great
read.

I apologize if I'm not getting my point across.  There might be some
terminology in literature that would better describe it but I'm unaware of
what that would be.

Michael O'Brien's apocalyptic novel, Father Elijah, achieves some of what
I'm talking about as well.  In fact, I'm thinking of reading it for the
third time.

Pax,

Mark

Dostoevsky never disappoints.

Mark Kodak
Web Developer
MNG Interactive Media
1560 Broadway, Suite 2100
Denver, CO. 80202
(303)-563-6435
  <mailto:markkodak@...> markkodak@...



   _____

From: Mark Steele [mailto:steele@...]
Sent: Friday, November 07, 2003 6:52 AM
To: 'coinherence-l@yahoogroups.com'


Anyone else here read Dan Brown (The Da Vinci Code, Angels & Demons, etc.)?
I have to say that, although I consider myself a completely orthodox Roman
Catholic, I enjoyed The Da Vinci Code immensely.  It is a very enjoyable
novel.  Unfortunately, it is being coupled in the media with those who take
the underlying story as fact rather than fiction (eg St. Mary Magdalene as
Jesus' wife and mother of his, now hidden, bloodline protected by the
Knights Templar and the Priory of Sion, yada, yada, yada).  Makes a good
read as fiction but is, shall we say, extremely lacking in evidence, logic,
and common sense as a theory of history.

Why can't some orthodox Christian write a novel that well though? I like
Lewis and CW but Lewis seems almost child-like in comparison with Brown and
CW seems stilted and lacking in detail and complexity.  Probably more a
product of literature in their time then any inability on their part.

The online Da Vinci Code scavenger hunts are quite fun.  A colleague of mine
and I solved both of them.

Any opinions?

Pax,

Mark


======================================
Mark D. Steele, PE, CCE
Vice President and Consulting Engineer
MDC Systems, Inc.

steele@...
http://www.mdcsystems.com <http://www.mdcsystems.com>

NEW ADDRESS
300 Berwyn Park
Suite 115
Berwyn, PA 19312-1179
p. 610.640.9600 ext.41
f. 610.640.9609


NOTE: This message is intended for the named recipient(s) only and may
contain confidential and privileged attorney/client correspondence or work
product. If you have received this message in error, please call
610-640-9600 to inform us that our message was misdirected, delete the
message permanently from your files, and destroy all copies. Thank you for
your co-operation.




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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Yes, I read  the DaVinci Codeand enjoyed it very much.  I was
interested to see in the Internet, that there are apparantly quite a
number of people out there who don't just take the novel and its
background seriously, but seem to be quite independently convinced
not only of Mary M's relationship with Jesus (that's been round since
the Gospel of MM I guess, which I presume is ancient) but her
identification with the Grail.  I didn't pursue any leads but it's
interesting to see what's out there.

UTM, Angie

On 7 Nov 2003 at 9:07, Mark Kodak wrote:

> Dostoevsky never disappoints.
>
> Mark Kodak
> Web Developer
> MNG Interactive Media
> 1560 Broadway, Suite 2100
> Denver, CO. 80202
> (303)-563-6435
>  <mailto:markkodak@...> markkodak@...
>
>
>
>   _____
>
> From: Mark Steele [mailto:steele@...]
> Sent: Friday, November 07, 2003 6:52 AM
> To: 'coinherence-l@yahoogroups.com'
>
>
> Anyone else here read Dan Brown (The Da Vinci Code, Angels & Demons, etc.)?
> I have to say that, although I consider myself a completely orthodox Roman
> Catholic, I enjoyed The Da Vinci Code immensely.  It is a very enjoyable
> novel.  Unfortunately, it is being coupled in the media with those who take
> the underlying story as fact rather than fiction (eg St. Mary Magdalene as
> Jesus' wife and mother of his, now hidden, bloodline protected by the
> Knights Templar and the Priory of Sion, yada, yada, yada).  Makes a good
> read as fiction but is, shall we say, extremely lacking in evidence, logic,
> and common sense as a theory of history.
>
> Why can't some orthodox Christian write a novel that well though? I like
> Lewis and CW but Lewis seems almost child-like in comparison with Brown and
> CW seems stilted and lacking in detail and complexity.  Probably more a
> product of literature in their time then any inability on their part.
>
> The online Da Vinci Code scavenger hunts are quite fun.  A colleague of mine
> and I solved both of them.
>
> Any opinions?
>
> Pax,
>
> Mark
>
>
> ======================================
> Mark D. Steele, PE, CCE
> Vice President and Consulting Engineer
> MDC Systems, Inc.
>
> steele@...
> http://www.mdcsystems.com <http://www.mdcsystems.com>
>
> NEW ADDRESS
> 300 Berwyn Park
> Suite 115
> Berwyn, PA 19312-1179
> p. 610.640.9600 ext.41
> f. 610.640.9609
>
>
> NOTE: This message is intended for the named recipient(s) only and may
> contain confidential and privileged attorney/client correspondence or work
> product. If you have received this message in error, please call
> 610-640-9600 to inform us that our message was misdirected, delete the
> message permanently from your files, and destroy all copies. Thank you for
> your co-operation.
>
>
>
>
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>

I've been lurking in here for some time now reading the various
topics that have arisen, and now there is a little question this
young boy needs answered. This is a page about Co-Inherence, and
Charles Williams did quite literally believe that is as a fact. So
my question is do any, or all of you, and have you practiced it on
any level? I'm aware that Lewis, though not totally sold on the
idea, did believe that might very well have been what happened when
Joy's cancer went into remission. Don't remember where I read that
(maybe the preface to Supprised By Joy?) but you can quote me on it.
Anyway, any comments or insight would be helpful. Attempting to
investigate this on a strictly personal level. Just finished Descent
into Hell, a few weeks back and am mid-stride in Many Dimensions.
Thanx in advance, always and forever, Trey