SOME ONE ON UP DACREEK ASKED ABOUT USING CORDWOOD FOR A
BARN.

MY REPLY.......ITS BEEN USED FOR BARNS,MANY OF THE OLDER CORDWOOD
STRUCTURES ARE IN FACT BARNS.

BUT HERE ARE MY RESERVATIONS ABOUT IT.

[1]BARNS HAVE TO BE CLEANED A LOT ,GENERALLY THEY ARE HOSED DOWN.
THE WATER FROM THIS WOULD CAUSE ROT.
[2]THE URINE WOULD ALSO CAUSE PROBLEMS.
(a)THE WOOD WOULD GET SATURATED AND SMELL,I`M NOT SURE IF THE SALT
IN THE URINE WOULD PRESERVE THE WOOD OR NOT.
(b)URINE GETS ABSORBED INTO THE MORTAR AND CONCRETE AS DOES THE
SMELL.
[3]OTHER


THINGS TO DO...
[A]PLACE SOMETHING TO COVER THE LOWER CORDWOOD TO PROTECT IT FROM
SPRAYS.
[B]SEAL THE CONCRETE SLAB TO PREVENT THE SMELL FROM PENETRATING IT.
[C]USE HEMLOCK IN THE STALL FRAMING,APPARENTLY HORSES WILL NOT CHEW
ON IT.[USUALLY THE TOP RAIL IS ALL THATS REQUIRED.]
[D]UTILIZE AN EXHAUST FAN
[E]INSULATE UNDER THE FLOOR IF ANIMALS ARE LAYING ON IT.
[F]OTHER


                      CORDWOODGUY

THIS IS A POST I MADE ON ANOTHER BOARD,,,,,A PERSON BASICLY DIS`D CORDWOOD AND I
REPLIED.  THANKS SAIL4FREE FOR POSTING IT HERE FOR MY BOARD.



==========
PER YOUR REQUEST:
==========
SAIL4FREE
==========

I WAS RELUCTANT TO RESPOND TO THE CORDWOOD
POSTINGS BY A
GENTLEMAN ON THIS BOARD.ESPECIALLY,BEING MY FIRST POST
HERE,BUT HERE
GOES.I`M KNOWN FOR MY BLUNT TRUTHFULNESS AND THATS WHY
I HAVE MY OWN
BOARD.LOL! BEFORE I GET EVERYONES PANTYHOSE IN A KNOT
AS WELL,I USE
UPPER CASE LETTERS DUE TO A VISUAL DISABILITY....AND
YES I`VE TRIED
EVERYTHING POSSIBLE TO PREVENT THIS...SORRY! I GUESS
MY NEXT MONITOR
HAS TO BE MUCH LARGER.


         THERE ARE TWO SIDES TO EVERY STORY AND HERE IS
MY REPLY.

[1]FIRST OFF I GATHER THAT THIS WAS THEIR FIRST
ATTEMPT WITH
CORDWOOD.BECAUSE HE MADE A LOT OF MISTAKES.PLEASE
CORRECT ME IF I`M
WRONG.WITH NO INSTRUCTION AND EXPERIENCE IN A
SYSTEM,ONE IS NOT
EQUIPED FOR THE TASK AT HAND.NOR TO SPEAK ABOUT
IT!THEREFORE THAT
PERSON SHOULDN`T ATTACK AN ENTIRE SYSTEM BASED ON
THEIR OWN
EXPERIENCE.I THINK THE WEAKEST LINK WAS
INEXPERIENCE.THERE HAVE BEEN
STICK BUILT HOMES BUILT BY CONTRACTORS THAT SUCK AS
WELL.

[2]HE TALKS ABOUT THE WIND BLOWING THROUGH THE
WALLS.MY CONTENTION
IS ITS MAINLY HIS FAULT,RATHER THAN THE SYSTEMS.
(a)HIS LOGS WEREN`T SEASONED LONG ENOUGH,SO MORE
SHRINKAGE THAN
REQUIRED OCCURED.HE RUSHED THE PROJECT AND THE LOGS
WERE WINTER
CUT...WHICH IS THE BEST.HE SAYS SPRING WOULD BE BETTER
BUT HE WAS
WRONG.THEY ARE WETTER AND MORE LIKELY TO CHECK.LOGS
SHOULD BE
SEASONED FOR 2-3 YEARS TO REACH THE EQUILIBRIUM
MOISTURE CONTENT.
[THATS WHEN THE LOG`S MOISTURE EQUALS THE AIR MOISTURE
AND THUS
TRULY AIR DRIED]
(b)WELL HE USED FIBERGLASS AND STYROFOAM
CHUNKS....NEITHER OF WHICH
WOULD STOP AIR OR WATER INFILTRATION.THEY WOULD CREATE
A LOT OF
VOIDS AND GAPS.
(c)STYROFOAM DOESN`T STOP WIND AND LOSES ITS R-VALUE
WHEN WET.IT
ALSO COMPRESSES AND GROWS MOLD[ITS ALMOST DECLAIRED
TOXIC].IT
SHOULDN`T HAVE BEEN USED IN CORDWOOD
CONSTRUCTION.SOMETHING FREE
FLOWING WOULD STOP A LOT OF THE AIR MOVEMENT.
(d)HE TRIED TO CAULK WITH A CLEAR SILICONE ON THE
INSIDE....FIRST I
WOULD HAVE TRIED TO STOP THE RAIN FROM PENETRATING THE
WALL ITSELF
BY CAULKING THE OUTSIDE.WOOD ROTS WHEN THE MOISTURE
CONTENT RISES
OVER 19%.SEEING AS HE KNEW THAT WATER WAS PENETRATING
THE BUILDING
HE SHOULD HAVE ADDRESSED THAT.HE SHOULD HAVE USED
PERMA CHINK AS A
CAULKING AS IT STRETCHES AND BONDS WITH THE MORTAR AND
THE WOOD
PERFECTLY.
(e)THE PITCH OF THEIR ROOF OFFERS NO PROTECTION FROM
THE ELEMENTS,IN
REALITY IT CAUSES WATER TO PENETRATE THE WALL AND ITS
CAVITY.THE
DESIGN IS ALSO PART OF THE PROBLEM.

[3]HE CALLS CORDWOOD VERY LABOUR INTENSIVE....WELL I
GUESS TO SOME
EXTENT.BUT 10-15 LB LOGS ARE EASIER TO PLACE THAN
800LB LOGS IN A
CONVENTIONAL LOG STRUCTURE.THIS LABOUR IS YOUR SAVINGS
AND MONEY NOT
SPENT ON TRADESMAN.ITS YOUR SWEAT EQUITY AND MONEY IN
THE BANK FOR
PEOPLE TRYING TO BE MORTGAGE FREE.
(a)PEOPLE WITH DISABILITIES AND CHILDREN CAN BE
ACTIVELY UTILIZED IN
BUILDING CORDWOOD.YOUR FAMILY IS THE LABOUR FORCE.
(b)ONE OF MY FLAMERS PICKED CORDWOOD OVER STRAW BALE
BECAUSE OF THE
WEIGHT OF THE BALES.HE ONCE READ AN ARTICLE ON
CORDWOOD AND THEN
CALLED MY SYSTEM REDICULOUS.[I`VE BEEN INVOLVED WITH
LOG BUILDING
FOR ABOUT 43 YEARS AND CORDWOOD FOR 33 YEARS.]
(c)EARTHSHIPS ARE LABOUR INTENSIVE.
(d)EARTHBAG AND CINVA RAM ARE LABOUR INTENSIVE.
LABOUR INTENSIVE IS BETTER THAN LABOUR EXPENSIVE.

[4]CORDWOOD CAN LEAVE LOTS OF PLACES FOR RODENTS AND
INSECTS....
(a)IN 33 YEARS INVOLVENTMENT WITH CORDWOOD,I`VE NEVER
HEARD OF THIS.
THE LIME IN THE MORTAR DETERS RODENTS AND INSECTS.PLUS
RODENTS
INFESTING A WALL WOULD BE EASILY SPOTTED.
(b)IF PEOPLE FOLLOW MY LEAD AND TREAT THEIR WOOD WITH
BORAX...THIS
KILLS INSECTS,DETERS RODENTS,STOPS FUNGI,MOLDS,SAP
STAIN,FIRE PROOFS
THE WOOD ETC.
(c)THE LIME IN THE SAWDUST INSULATION ALSO DETERS
RODENTS AND
INSECTS.[NOTE THE REASON I BELIEVE FOR THE BAD RAP
CORDWOOD HOMES
HAVE FOR AIR INFUSION IS DUE TO THE INSULATIONS
RECOMMENDED BY THE
AUTHORS.THE SAWDUST BECOMES CEMENTINOUS AND WHEN THE
LOGS SHRINK
THEY PULL AWAY.[I RECOMMEND STYROFOAM BEADS THAT FREE
FLOW TO FILL
VOIDS.I UTILIZE A SECRET AIR SEAL TO STOP AIR AND RAIN
PENETRATION
AS I BUILD.IT SHRINKS AND SWELLS TO PREVENT GAPS
BETWEEN THE LOGS
AND MORTAR.]
    ALSO AS A POINT OF INTEREST STRAW BALE HOMES
HAVEN`T FAIRED WELL
ON BLOWER DOOR TESTS.

[5]HE THEN TALKS ABOUT SEALING THE CORDWOOD WALL WITH
6ML PLASTIC
AND SHAKES.HE ALSO MENTIONED RIGIDCELL INSULATION
BOARD COVERED WITH
STUCCO AND ELASTOMER PAINT.THIS WOULDN`T BREATH
EITHER.HE DID IT TO
STOP MOISTURE FROM PENETRATING THE WALL,YET ITS A TWO
EDGE SWORD.
MEANING IT WILL NOT ALLOW THE MOISTURE TO PASS THROUGH
THE WALL.
THUS CREATING A PERFECT ENVIRONMENT FOR ROT.
(a)LOGS BREATH AND TRANSFER MOISTURE FROM A HIGHER
HUMID AREA TO A
LOWER HUMID AREA.GENERALLY,THIS IS FROM THE INSIDE
FACING
OUT.SEALING THE WALL PREVENTS THE LOGS FROM DOING WHAT
COMES
NATURALLY AND IMPEEDING THE FLOW OF MOISTURE CREATES
PROPER
CONDITIONS FOR ROT.
(c)MORTAR ALSO HAS TO BREATH AND AGAIN HE HAS
SUCCEEDED IN CHOKING
THAT OFF AS WELL.


                       CORDWOODGUY

PS: I HATE IT WHEN I HEAR PEOPLE WHO SHOOT DOWN ANY
SYSTEM.WHEN IT
IS THEM THAT ACTUALLY FAILED THE SYSTEM BY NOT
PROPERLY RESEARCHING
AND PREPARING FOR THE TASK AT HAND.THE QUALITY IS MORE
CLOSELY
ASSOCIATED WITH HIS SKILL LEVEL AT THE TIME.PEOPLE
SHOULD TAKE
INSTRUCTION AND GET SOME HANDS ON.SO I HOPE PEOPLE
DON`T SHY AWAY
FROM CORDWOOD BUT SEAK OUT TO LEAN HOW TO BUILT IT
RIGHT.
       SO IF PEOPLE WANT TO FIND OUT HOW TO BUILD A
CORDWOOD HOME
PROPERLY AND AVOID THE PROBLEMS OUR NOVICE BUILDER
DID.DROP BY MY
BOARD.
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/cordwood

"COULD SOME ONE SEND A COPY OF THIS POST TO MY
BOARD....PLEASE!"

Doug Kalmer <sunart@...> wrote:  Apparently that`s YOUR reality, because
I read Rob Roy`s book on cordwood,
and he replied much more politely in the latest issue of Countryside
Magazine www.countrysidemag.com He had not mentioned the need for Perma
chink in his book, or previous article in Countryside. Cordwood has too many
wood to mortor interfaces, too many splits in the wood, too many possible
infiltration points. Every so called expert has a different take on how to
do it.

"cordwoodguy"
Subject: CORDWOOD THE REALITY




---------------------------------
How low will we go? Check out Yahoo! Messenger’s low  PC-to-Phone call rates.

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

==========
CORDWOODGUY: "I RECOMMEND STYROFOAM BEADS THAT FREE FLOW TO FILL
VOIDS.  I UTILIZE A SECRET AIR SEAL TO STOP AIR AND RAIN PENETRATION
AS I BUILD.  IT SHRINKS AND SWELLS TO PREVENT GAPS BETWEEN THE LOGS
AND MORTAR."
==========
I'M NEW TO THIS GROUP AND I'M RESPONDING IN ALL CAPS SO CORDWOODGUY
CAN READ IT EASIER.  I'M ASSUMING YOU ALREADY KNOW ABOUT CLICKING ON
VIEW (UPPER LEFT) AND THEN ON "TEXT SIZE" AND THEN ON "LARGEST"?  I'M
52 AND WEAR READING GLASSES . . . I HAVE MINE ON MEDIUM SO FAR (ON A
FAIRLY SMALL MONITOR) SO I CAN RELATE (SMILES).
==========
WHERE DO YOU GET YOUR STYROFOAM BEADS AND ARE THEY PRE-COOKED
(EXPANDED) ALREADY?  WE USED TO BUILD INSULATED THERMOS USING BEADS
AND MASON JARS -- AND LIDS -- IN HIGH SCHOOL . . . GREAT FUN BOILING
THE BOLT-TOGETHER ALUMINUM MOLDS AFTER FILLING THEM WITH PARTIALLY
PRE-EXPANDED BEADS.  THAT'S ALL PROBABLY OLD SCHOOL NOW BUT WE WERE
STATE-OF-THE-ART AT THE TIME!
==========
WHAT IS YOUR "SECRET" AIR SEAL?  IF YOU'RE SERIOUSLY COMMITTED TO
FOLKS DOING IT RIGHT -- AND IT SEEMS THAT YOU ARE -- THEN IT'S NOT
*REALLY* A SECRET, IS IT?
==========
CORDWOODGUY: "HE THEN TALKS ABOUT SEALING THE CORDWOOD WALL WITH 6ML
PLASTIC AND SHAKES.  HE ALSO MENTIONED RIGIDCELL INSULATION BOARD
COVERED WITH STUCCO AND ELASTOMER PAINT.THIS WOULDN`T BREATH EITHER.
HE DID IT TO STOP MOISTURE FROM PENETRATING THE WALL,YET ITS A TWO
EDGE SWORD.  MEANING IT WILL NOT ALLOW THE MOISTURE TO PASS THROUGH
THE WALL.  THUS CREATING A PERFECT ENVIRONMENT FOR ROT."
==========
IT SOUNDS LIKE YOU ARE RESPONDING TO *SUN DOUG" OR "SUNDOUG" WHO IS
NO LONGER A MEMBER OF LITTLEHOUSES -- AND HASN'T BEEN FOR A WHILE.
FOR WHAT IT'S WORTH, I ASKED HIM ABOUT THE SAME THING AS TRAPPING
MOISTURE HAS BEEN A CHRONIC PROBLEM FOR THESE SO-CALLED EIFS
(EXTERIOR INSULATION FINISH SYSTEMS).  I DON'T REMEMBER IF HE REMOVED
THE LAYER OF PLASTIC & CEDAR SHAKES FIRST -OR- JUST WENT OVER THEM
WITH THE EIFS.  EITHER WAY, HE ADMITTED THAT HE MIGHT HAVE ARRANGED
TO TRAP SOME MOISTURE TRYING TO EXIT THE EXTERIOR SURFACE OF THE
CORDWOOD WALL BUT FIGURED IT WOULD DRAIN OUT AT THE BOTTOM OF THE
EIFS.  ON HIS BUILDING, ONLY THE TALL AND WIDE SOUTH WALL WAS
CORDWOOD -- THE OTHER THREE WALLS WERE OUTSULATED POURED-IN-PLACE
CONCRETE IIRC.  AS YOU KNOW, AIR ALWAYS MOVES FROM WARM TOWARDS COOL
(AND CARRIES MOISTURE WITH IT).  HE'S HOPING THE REVERSE IN DIRECTION
(DURING THE SUMMER MONTHS WHEN THE INTERIOR IS COOLER -- AND DRIER)
WILL DRY THE WALL OUT BUT THAT STILL LEAVES MANY MONTHS (WHENEVER IT
IS COOLER OUTSIDE THAN INSIDE) THAT HIS LAYER OF EIFS WILL TRAP
MOISTURE AND HOLD IT AGAINST THE OUTSIDE OF THE CORDWOOD WALL.  I
HAVEN'T READ ALL YOUR STUFF YET BUT I SEE AT LEAST ONE PLACE WHERE
YOU TALK ABOUT 2 OR 3 INCHES OF OUTSULATION (INSULATION ON THE
OUTSIDE) . . . HOW DO YOU ALLOW FOR THE MOISTURE CONDENSATION PROBLEM?
==========
SAIL4FREE
==========

--- In cordwood@yahoogroups.com, guy cordwood <cordwoodguy@...>
wrote:
>
>
>
> Doug Kalmer <sunart@...> wrote:  Apparently that`s YOUR reality,
because I read Rob Roy`s book on cordwood,
> and he replied much more politely in the latest issue of
Countryside
> Magazine www.countrysidemag.com He had not mentioned the need for
Perma
> chink in his book, or previous article in Countryside. Cordwood
has too many
> wood to mortor interfaces, too many splits in the wood, too many
possible
> infiltration points. Every so called expert has a different take
on how to
> do it.
>
> "cordwoodguy"
> Subject: CORDWOOD THE REALITY


SUNART...........HERE IS THE DIFFERENCE BETWEEN ME AND THE AUTHORS
AS FAR AS CORDWOOD BUILDING GOES.CHECK MY CORDWOOD NEWBEE PAGE FOR
MORE INFO.I TEACH REALITY CORDWOOD WITH ALOT OF COMMON SENSE AND
SCIENTIFIC BACKING WHERE AS THE AUTHORS DEAL WITH MYTHS AND A LOT OF
MISINFORMATION.MY BACKGROUND WAS INITIALLY IN LOG BUILDING AND THE
PRACTICES HAVE BEEN PROVEN FOR THOUSANDS OF YEARS.

[1]ALL THE AUTHORS BUILD ON THE GROUND[I BUILD 24" OFF THE GROUND TO
PROTECT THE WOOD.RAIN SPLASHES UP 24" AND MELTING SNOW COULD LEAK
INTO THE WALLS BUILT TOO LOW.PLUS HEAVY RAINS COULD CAUSE FLOODING.]

[2]THEY SAY NOT TO TREAT THE WOOD.THEY HAVE THIS MISCONCEPTION ABOUT
CEDAR BEING INSECT AND ROT PROOF.[I SAY TO TREEAT THE WOOD AS ALL
NORTH AMERICAN SAPWOOD ROTS AND THERE IS NO MYTHICAL WOOD THATS ROT
FREE.I USE AN ENVIROMENTALLY SAFE BORAX SOLUTION THAT KILLS OFF
INSECTS,MOLDS,FUNGI,BACTERIA,SAP STAIN AND ALSO WORKS A S A FIRE
PROOFING AGENT.PLUS TREATING THE WOOD WOULD PUT ROT ON HOLD BY
CHOKING OFF THE FOOD SUPPLY.]

[3]THE AUTHORS RECOMMEND HARD WOOD TO NEWBEES WHEN HE HIMSELF HAD
FAILED TO USE IT SUCCESSFULLY.[I WOULD ONLY RECOMMEND SOFTWOOD WITH
THE EXCEPTION OF POPLAR.ALTHOUGH THERE ARE QUITE A FEW HARDWOODS
THAT ARE DIMENTIONALLY STABLE...BUT UNTIL TESTED THEY ARE A GAMBLE.
I`VE FOUND ARTICLES WHERE ROB SAY THE TWO BEST WOODS FOR CORDWOOD
ARE CEDAR AND OAK.WELL ONE OAK, THE WIND BLOWS RIGHT THROUGH THE END
GRAIN SO IT WOULD BE LIKE LIVING IN A SCREENED HOME BECAUSE OF THE
AIR MOVEMENT.]

[4]THE AUTHORS ALL LAY CLAIMS TO 1,000 YEAR OLD STRUCTURES STILL IN
USE IN SIBERIA,NORWAY AND CRETE.[WOW!THATS A GREAT STATEMENT FOR ANY
BUILDING SYSTEM.BUT UNFORTUNATELY,ITS A BOLD FACED LIE.I`VE
CHALLENGED THE AUTHORS TO PROVE THEIR CLAIMS BUT NO PROOF AS
YET.BEFORE I CHALLENGED THEM I CONTACTED GOVERNMENT OFFICIALS IN THE
ABOVE MENTIONED COUNTRIES AND THEY ARE NOT AWARE OF ANY SUCH
STRUCTURES.
           ROB ONCE MADE CLAIMS THERE WAS A CLAY TABLET THAT HAD
INSTRUCTIONS ON HOW TO BUILD CORDWOOD.WELL, AN ARCHIOLOGIST WHO
SPECIALIZES IN CLAY TABLETS SAYS HE NEVER HEARD OF THAT.]
           I POSTED HERE ONCE ABOUT 13,000-18,000 YEARS OLD
CONVENTIONAL LOG HOMES TO BAIT SOME ONE AFTER I CHALLENGED THE
AUTHORS ON 1,000 YEAR OLD CORDWOOD CLAIMS.WELL,SOME ONE BIT AND I
GAVE THE ADDRESS.IT WAS THE ARCHIOLOGICAL FIND OF THE CENTURY.

[5]ROB HAS BEEN PROMOTING CORDWOOD AS ENERGY EFFICIENCY FOR DECADES.
HIS FIRST WALLS WERE ABOUT 10" THICK.I`D LOVE TO HAVE BEEN PRESENT
AT THESE SHOWS JUST TO ASK HIM HOW HE THOUGH AN R=5 TO R=6 WOULD BE
CONSIDERED ENERGY EFFICIENT WHEN MINIMUM CODE FOR STICK BUILT WAS AT
LEAST DOUBLE THAT.[I`M THE ONLY ONE THAT BUILDS AND RECOMMEND 24"
WALLS.EVEN THE WORST R-VALUE ATTRIBUTED TO MY WALLS SHOULD EXCEED
CODE.MY INNER CAVITIES HAVE 16" OF INSULATION.I`VE EVEN EXPLAINED
HOW TO GET AN R-96 CORDWOOD WALL THATS STOOD FOR OVER 5 YEARS.

[6]THE AUTHORS AND MODERATORS OF OTHER BOARDS SAY THAT LOGS NEED 6
WEEKS TO 12 MONTHS OF SEASONING.[PROFESSIONAL LOG BUILDERS RECOMMEND
LETTING THE LOGS SET FOR TWO SUMMERS.SCIENTIFICALLY,IT TAKES 2-3
YEARS FOR A LOG TO REACH THE EQUILIBRIUM MOISTURE CONTENT OF THE
SURROUNDING AIR.THUS PROPERLY AIR DRIED.
          I RECOMMEND WINTER CUT LOGS THATS PROVEN ITSELF FOR
CENTURIES.IT WAS FIRST FOUND IN PRINT IN 10 BC.

[7]ONE AUTHOR RECOMMENDS COATING THE ENTIRE MORTAR WITH PERMA CHINK.
THIS WOULD CHOKE OFF THE WALL AND CAUSE ROT.LOGS AND MORTAR HAVE TO
BREATH FOR A MASONRY STRUCTURE TO THRIVE.ANYTHING THAT IMPEEDS THIS
CAUSES THE MOISTURE CONTENT OF THE WOOD TO EXCEED 19%,WHICH SUSTAINS
ROT.TRAPPING THE MOISTURE IN THE MASONRY WILL CAUSE IT TO FLAKE WHEN
THE WALLS FREEZE.

[8]ONE OF THE REASONS ROB MIGHT NOT RECOMMEND PERMA CHINK IS HE
DOESN`T RECOGNIZE THE FACT THAT AIR HAS PENETRAED CORDWOOD WALLS.
READ HIS NEWEST STATE OF THE ART CRAP.ALL HIS STUDENTS SEEM TO
MENTION THAT THE LOGS OR MORTAR HAS SHRUNK AND GAPS ARE IN THE WALL.
PERMA CHINK STRETHCES AND MAINTAINS A BOND BETWEEN THE MORTAR AND
LOG...ITS PERFECT FOR THIS APPLICATION.
           I`VE HAD OTHER AUTHORS TELL ME THAT THERE WERE NO HOLES IN
A CORDWOOD WALL THAT WOULD ALLOW AIR AND RAIN TO PENETRATE A
CORDWOOD WALL.THEN THE SAME AUTHOR WITHIN A FEW NEW POSTS SAYS THE
CHECKS IN HIS LOGS WERE SO BAD THAT YOU COULD SEE THROUGH THE WALL.
I SAID TO HIM,IF YOU CAN SEE THROUGH THE WALL...THEN WOULDN`T AIR
AND RAIN PENETRATE IT AS WELL.THEN HE TALKED ABOUT A COUPLE IN MAINE
WHO STUCCO`ED THE EXTERIOR OF THE HOUSE TO STOP AIR BLOWING THROUGH
THE WALLS.DAH!

[9]THE AUTHORS ALL RECOMMEND SAWDUST MIXED WITH LIME FOR INSULATION.
ITS BEEN MY OPINION THAT ITS THIS MIX THATS THE MAIN PROBLEM WITH
AIR AND WATER PENETRATION OF THE WALLS.THE MIX BECOMES CEMENTINOUS
AND WHEN THE LOGS SHRINK THEY PULL AWAY FROM THE MORTAR AND THUS THE
GAPS.I RECOMMEND FREE FLOWING INSULATION SO IT FILLS ANY GAPS THAT
MIGHT OCCUR.

[10]THE AUTHORS ALL RECOMMEND A 1" JOINT IN THE MORTAR.I BASICLY USE
THICKER JOINTS ,SO LESS OVERALL JOINTS.

[11]THE AUTHORS ALL RECOMMEND 70% SPLIT LOGS.THEY HAVE THE
CONCEPTION THAT SPLITTING THE LOGS WILL PREVENT THE CHECKING.BUT IN
REALITY,IT CREATES THE CHECKING.BUT IF THE AUTHORS UNDERSTOOD THE
PROPERTIES OF WOOD FROM FELLING,SEASONING AND TREATING THE WOOD.
CHECKING CAN BE VERTUALLY ELIMINATED.THE AUTHORS ALL BUY LARGE
DIAMETER LOGS WHICH WILL SHRINK MORE AND CHECK MORE.ON THE OTHER
HAND I JUST USE SMALL DIAMETER ROUNDS.LESS SHRINKAGE,SMALLER CHECKS
IF INDEED CHECKS SURFACE.
            SPLITTING THE LOGS CAUSES MORE AVENUES FOR WATER TO
PENETRATE THE WALL.PLUS ANY SPIRAL GRAINED LOGS UTILIZED AS SPLIT
WILL TURN WITHIN THE MORTAR MATRIX AND CRACK THE WALL.THE SPLIT LOGS
WOULD BE HARDER TO SEAL AS WELL.THEY WOULD ALLOW MORE AIR AND WATER
PENETRATION.

[12]I TREAT MY LOGS AND SEAL THEM TO CONTROL MOISTURE LOSS.I SEAL MY
LOGS BEFORE I PLACE THEM IN THE WALL SO THEY DON`T ROB MOISTURE FROM
THE MORTAR AND RUIN THE MORTAR FROM IMPROPER CURING.UNTREATED THE
LOGS MIGHT SWELL SOMEWHAT FROM THE EXCESS MOISTURE.

[13]I`VE HAD THE OPORTUNITY TO EXAMING 50+ CORDWOOD HOMES BUILT BY
THE BOOKS OVER A 33 YEAR PERIOD.SO I CAN SAY THAT IF YOU FOLLOW THE
BOOKS YOU ARE DESTINED TO FAIL.I KNOW OF ABOUT 7 THAT ARE ROTTING
AWAY.ITS FROM THIS AND THE HOME OWNERS TELLING ME THAT THE BOOKS /
AUTHORS LIED TO THEM.[THATS AN ACTUAL QUOTE FROM SEVERAL CORDWOOD
HOME OWNERS]

[14]SOME AUTHORS RECOMMEND TOXIC TREATMENTS THAT WOULD BE LIFE
THREATENING TO THOSE LIVING WITHIN THE WALLS.

[15]SOME AUTHORS SAY TO LEAVE THE BARK ON THE LOGS.THIS ATTRACTS
BUGS AND PROTECTS THEM,GIVING THEM A PLACE TO LIVE AND BREED..
DRIED,ROUNDED LOGS ARE AS TASTY TO A BUG AS A RICE CAKE IS TO ME.LOL!
[I STOLE THIS LINE FROM WILLIAM LASKO!]THE BARK HAS TO COME
OFF,THATS A GIVEN!

[16]I`VE MADE SUGGESTIONS ON OTHER BOARDS AS WELL AS HERE.CORDWOOD
HASN`T CHANGED ANY SINCE I FIRST DISCOVERED IT.ITS HARDER NOW TO
BUILD ONE NOW BECAUSE OF CODES.CORDWOOD IS STILL IN ITS INFANCY
AND NOT THE STATE OF THE ART AS ROB SUGGESTS.TO BRING CORDWOOD INTO
THE MILLENIUM I SUGGESTED THE FOLLOWING.
(a)TRY TO GET CORDWOOD INTO THE CODE BOOKS,THIS WILL LWEGITIMIZE THE
SYSTEM.
(b)FORMING AN ASSOCIATION WILL HELP,IVE SEEN THIS THROUGH LOG
BUILDING
(c)GET APPROVED PLANS FOR PEOPLE TO TAKE TO BUILDING INSPECTORS
(d)TEST CORDWOOD FOR R-VALUE,WIND SHEER,LOAD BEARING CAPACITY,
BLOWER DOOR TESTS ETC.
(e)I ONCE SUGGESTED THAT THEY SET UP A CORDWOOD OLYMPICS TO COMPARE
AND TEST THE DIFFERENT STYLES WITHIN THE SYSTEM.IT WAS RIDICULED,
THIS I NEVER EXPECTED.I THOUGH SCIENTIFIC TESTING WOULD BE WELCOMED
BY ALL...DAH!I GUESS THEY WANT TO STAY IN THE DARK,BUT I PERSONALLY
WOULD LIKE TO SEE IMPROVEMENT.

NOTE:BYE THE WAY THE AUTHORS HAVE MOVED IN ALL THE ABOVE DIRECTIONS
I LAID OUT.FUNNY THOUGH IN THE LETTER ABOUT ME THEY SAID SOME OF
WHAT I SAID WAS HIGHLY QUESTIONABLE.

              ALSO I AGREE EVERY SO CALLED EXPERT HAS THEIR TAKE ON
THE SUBJECT.BUT I CAN`T UNDERSTAND HOW THE AUTHORS MISSED SO MUCH.
THE AVERAGE HOME OWNER STACKS HIS FIREWOOD OFF THE GROUND HIGHER
THAN ALL THE AUTHORS HAVE BUILT THEIR CORDWOOD HOMES.MOISTURE CAN
WHICK UP TO 5' ABOVE FINISHED GRADE THUS CREATING PROBLEMS WITH THE
LOGS.THE AUTHORS DON`T RECOMMEND TREATING THE WOOD BUT AGAIN THE
AVERAGE JOE WILL PAINT,OIL,VARNISH ANY EXPOSED WOOD TO PRESERVE IT!
             THE AUTHORS POSTED A LETTER AIMED AT QUESTIONING MY
METHODS.BUT IN THAT LETTER THEY SAY THAT MOST OF WHAT I SAY IS TRUE
AND THAT THEY THEMSELVES MADE MANY MISTAKES WITH FEW SUCCESSES.I SEE
MY INFLUENCES IN A LOT OF THEIR NEWER POSTS.

                 CORDWOODGUY
PS: I HAVE AS MUCH HISTORY WITH CORDWOOD AS ANY OF THE AUTHORS.I`VE
KNOW OF THE ERRORS IN THEIR BOOKS FOR YEARS...IT SEEMS THEY NEVER
LEARNED MUCH ABOUT THE SYSTEM AS THEY STILL MAKE THE SAME MISTAKES
OVER AND OVER.FORTUNATELY MY REALITY IS REAL AND NOT MYTHICAL.

> I'M NEW TO THIS GROUP AND I'M RESPONDING IN ALL CAPS SO
CORDWOODGUY
> CAN READ IT EASIER.  I'M ASSUMING YOU ALREADY KNOW ABOUT CLICKING
ON
> VIEW (UPPER LEFT) AND THEN ON "TEXT SIZE" AND THEN ON "LARGEST"?
I'M
> 52 AND WEAR READING GLASSES . . . I HAVE MINE ON MEDIUM SO FAR (ON
A
> FAIRLY SMALL MONITOR) SO I CAN RELATE (SMILES).

MY REPLY..............I`VE TRIED IT ALL....BUT ITS WHEN I EDIT TO
POST LIKE NOW.IT ALL REVERTS TO SMALLER SCALE.

> ==========
> WHERE DO YOU GET YOUR STYROFOAM BEADS AND ARE THEY PRE-COOKED
> (EXPANDED) ALREADY?  WE USED TO BUILD INSULATED THERMOS USING
BEADS
> AND MASON JARS -- AND LIDS -- IN HIGH SCHOOL . . . GREAT FUN
BOILING
> THE BOLT-TOGETHER ALUMINUM MOLDS AFTER FILLING THEM WITH PARTIALLY
> PRE-EXPANDED BEADS.  THAT'S ALL PROBABLY OLD SCHOOL NOW BUT WE
WERE
> STATE-OF-THE-ART AT THE TIME!

MY REPLY...............THE STYROFOAM BEADS COME FROM A LOCAL MFG`ER
"TRUFOAM"....I CAN GET 9 CU FT OF BEADS FOR I THINK $9.00 OR 9 CU FT
SHREDDED / RECYCLED BOARD FOR ONLY $1.00.I`M NOT SURE IF THEY ARE
PRE-COOKED OR NOT.AS A GUESS I`D SAY NO.ITS SEEMS TO BE THE SAME
SIZE AS WHATS IN THE BOARD.I`VE BOUGHT HIGH DENSITY BOARD FROM THEM
AND THE BEADS LOOK SMALLER.I PREFER THE BEADS AS THEIR SURFACE AREA
IS LESS LIKELY TO ABSORB/HOLD WATER.



> ==========
> WHAT IS YOUR "SECRET" AIR SEAL?  IF YOU'RE SERIOUSLY COMMITTED TO
> FOLKS DOING IT RIGHT -- AND IT SEEMS THAT YOU ARE -- THEN IT'S NOT
> *REALLY* A SECRET, IS IT?


MY REPLY...........THE AIR SEAL IS THE ONLY THING I`VE HELD BACK
ABOUT CORDWOOD.A STRUCTURAL ENGINEER SAYS IT WILL WORK.BUT I HAVE AN
ADDITIONAL FAIL SAFE BUILT IN.I`VE TAUNTED PEOPLE WITH IT AND SOME
MADE SUGGESTIONS.CHECK IN THE ARCHIVES.I POINTED OUT FAILURES IN
THEIR IDEAS.


> ==========
> CORDWOODGUY: "HE THEN TALKS ABOUT SEALING THE CORDWOOD WALL WITH
6ML
> PLASTIC AND SHAKES.  HE ALSO MENTIONED RIGIDCELL INSULATION BOARD
> COVERED WITH STUCCO AND ELASTOMER PAINT.THIS WOULDN`T BREATH
EITHER.
> HE DID IT TO STOP MOISTURE FROM PENETRATING THE WALL,YET ITS A TWO
> EDGE SWORD.  MEANING IT WILL NOT ALLOW THE MOISTURE TO PASS
THROUGH
> THE WALL.  THUS CREATING A PERFECT ENVIRONMENT FOR ROT."
> ==========
> IT SOUNDS LIKE YOU ARE RESPONDING TO *SUN DOUG" OR "SUNDOUG" WHO
IS
> NO LONGER A MEMBER OF LITTLEHOUSES -- AND HASN'T BEEN FOR A
WHILE.
> FOR WHAT IT'S WORTH, I ASKED HIM ABOUT THE SAME THING AS TRAPPING
> MOISTURE HAS BEEN A CHRONIC PROBLEM FOR THESE SO-CALLED EIFS
> (EXTERIOR INSULATION FINISH SYSTEMS).  I DON'T REMEMBER IF HE
REMOVED
> THE LAYER OF PLASTIC & CEDAR SHAKES FIRST -OR- JUST WENT OVER THEM
> WITH THE EIFS.  EITHER WAY, HE ADMITTED THAT HE MIGHT HAVE
ARRANGED
> TO TRAP SOME MOISTURE TRYING TO EXIT THE EXTERIOR SURFACE OF THE
> CORDWOOD WALL BUT FIGURED IT WOULD DRAIN OUT AT THE BOTTOM OF THE
> EIFS.  ON HIS BUILDING, ONLY THE TALL AND WIDE SOUTH WALL WAS
> CORDWOOD -- THE OTHER THREE WALLS WERE OUTSULATED POURED-IN-PLACE
> CONCRETE IIRC.  AS YOU KNOW, AIR ALWAYS MOVES FROM WARM TOWARDS
COOL
> (AND CARRIES MOISTURE WITH IT).  HE'S HOPING THE REVERSE IN
DIRECTION
> (DURING THE SUMMER MONTHS WHEN THE INTERIOR IS COOLER -- AND
DRIER)
> WILL DRY THE WALL OUT BUT THAT STILL LEAVES MANY MONTHS (WHENEVER
IT
> IS COOLER OUTSIDE THAN INSIDE) THAT HIS LAYER OF EIFS WILL TRAP
> MOISTURE AND HOLD IT AGAINST THE OUTSIDE OF THE CORDWOOD WALL.  I
> HAVEN'T READ ALL YOUR STUFF YET BUT I SEE AT LEAST ONE PLACE WHERE
> YOU TALK ABOUT 2 OR 3 INCHES OF OUTSULATION (INSULATION ON THE
> OUTSIDE) . . . HOW DO YOU ALLOW FOR THE MOISTURE CONDENSATION
PROBLEM?
> ==========
> SAIL4FREE.........REFRESH ME! I`M NOT AWARE OF ME RECOMMENDING
INSULATION ON THE OUTSIDE???


                       CORDWOODGUY
PS:CHECK OUT MY CORDWOOD NEWBEE PAGE UNDER THE LINKS,I DISCUSS MY
SYSTEM THERE.WELCOME TO CORDWOOD.

>

==========
CORDWOODGUY: "SAIL4FREE.........REFRESH ME! I`M NOT AWARE OF ME
RECOMMENDING INSULATION ON THE OUTSIDE???"
==========
I THINK I MISUNDERSTOOD -- THIS IS THE QUOTE I COPIED & PASTED FROM
CORDWOOD2:
==========
"I AM PLACING A 24" CORDWOOD WALL ON MY 8"-10" STEM WALL WITH MY
ENGINEERS APPROVAL.  IT'S A BASIC ENGINEERING CONCEPT CALLED
CANTILEVERED.  MIND YOU I ONLY PLAN TO OVER LAP THE FOUNDATION TO HIDE
MY INSULATION ON THE OUTER WALL.[2"-3"]
SO I HAVE AS MUCH CORDWOOD WALL ON THE FOUNDATION AS I DO ON THE
BEEFED UP FLOOR.
==========
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/CORDWOOD2/message/4
==========
IN RE-READING IT, ARE YOU TALKING ABOUT INSULATING THE OUTSIDE OF THE
CONCRETE STEM WALL -- ONLY -- AND CANTILEVERING THE CORDWOOD SO THE
OUTSIDE FACE OF THE CORDWOOD AND THE OUTSIDE FACE OF WHATEVER
PROTECTS THE INSULATION ON THE STEM WALL ARE FLUSH?
==========
SAIL4FREE
==========
PS -- I DO ALMOST ALL OF MY EDITING AND RESPONDING IN NOTEPAD.  I CAN
MAKE THE NOTEPAD WINDOW AS LARGE AS MY SCREEN.  I COPY & PASTE THE
MESSAGE TO THE NOTEPAD WINDOW.  THEN I CLICK "EDIT" AND "SELECT ALL"
WHICH HIGHLIGHTS ALL THE TEXT IN THE WINDOW.  I CLICK "EDIT" AGAIN
AND "SET FONT" AND I CAN CHANGE THE TEXT SIZE AND MAKE IT AS BIG AS I
NEED.  THEN CLICKING ANYWHERE IN THE WINDOW REMOVES THE HIGHLIGHT FOR
REGULAR EDITING.  (ONCE THESE SETTINGS ARE SELECTED, ANY TIME YOU
PASTE TO NOTEPAD, IT SHOULD DISPLAY IN THE LARGER CHOSEN FONT
AUTOMATICALLY -- WITHOUT HAVING TO GO THROUGH THIS SEQUENCE EACH
TIME.)
==========
WHEN I'M DONE AND READY TO POST TO GROUP, I JUST CLICK ON "EDIT"
AND "SELECT ALL" WHICH HIGHLIGHTS EVERYTHING IN THE WINDOW.  THEN I
HOLD DOWN "CTRL" AND "C" AT THE SAME TIME.  (THIS SAVES ALL THE TEXT
TO AN INVISIBLE CLIPBOARD.)  TO POST ALL THE TEXT TO GROUP, I HOLD
DOWN "CTRL" AND "V" AND IT DOWNSIZES THE FONT AUTOMATICALLY AND
DISPLAYS IN THE POST WINDOW AT THE USUAL SIZE.
==========
I DID THE ABOVE IN 20 FONT AND POSTED IT ACCORDING TO THE ABOVE
DIRECTIONS AS A TEST.  I'M HAPPY TO FINE TUNE THESE DIRECTIONS OFF
LIST IF YOU PREFER.  IT SEEMS A LITTLE COMPLICATED AT FIRST BUT WITH
REPITITION, IT GETS SO EASY I DO IT NOW WITHOUT REALLY THINKING ABOUT
IT.
==========

No, it may be cheap, but it ain't a good idea.  You may not need
spacers.  I've layed lots of stone , lots bigger than 200 lbs, some
over 1000 lbs (chimney caps).  Good mortar, of the right
consistency should be enough,  just lay an even bed, and all will
be fine.

Gonkmason


>
> Gonkmason,
> Thanx for the info!  I'm using 1 part portland, 1.5 parts sharp
sand, 1.5 parts
> pea gravel to form these stones.  The surface is slightly
porous, but no doubt
> I'll need to go fairly dry with the mortar mix, given the weight of
these units.
> Is Jim's suggestion, marble spacers, feasible?  It would sure
save us some
> headaches!
> Grant
>
> --- In cordwood@yahoogroups.com, "Lucas" <shotgunluke@>
wrote:
> >
> > Grant,
> >
> > Hi, Gonkmason here,  If you are mortaring the quoins
together,
> > you can use regular masonry cement.  Depending on how
> > porous the concrete is, you will want to adjust the wetness of
the
> > mortar.  You will find that if the concrete has an almost shiney
> > finish, the stone will float and move around and fall out of
plumb
> > and level, so you will want to keep the mortar dryer.  If you are
not
> > familiar with "Masonry Cement"  you will probably want type
"N"
> > masonry cement, it will contain enough lime that it will be
sticky.
> > To mix, add 1 part masonry cement and 3 parts brick sand.
> > Bricksand is sharper than regular sand and bonds with
masonry
> > units better and makes much stonger mortar.
> >
> > Hope this helps
> >
> > Gonkmason
> >
> >
> >
> > - In cordwood@yahoogroups.com, "cordbuild" <grant@>
wrote:
> > >
> > > I am currently pouring cement "quoins" for my cordwood
house
> > project.  CWG
> > > has posted a couple of images of them under the lomax
> > corners portion of the
> > > photos link.
> > >
> > > These quoin stones are 200+ pounds each.  Does anyone
> > have advice for me
> > > about mortaring them together?
> > >
> > > I have completed nine of the 40 that will be needed.  I built
the
> > molds and
> > > artwork out of crezon board, and I'm using motor oil and
> > vaseline as release
> > > agents.
> > >
> > > We are now into high production, pouring 4 of them at a
time.
> > Phew!
> > >
> > > Thanx,
> > > Grant
> > >
> >
>

In 1982 my wife and I bought 34 acres in Tennessee, and started to build
our dream home, passive solar space and water heating, earth
sheltered, post
and beam framed, slipformed stone, with cedar cordwood infilled south
wall.
We had some money from selling a house I remodeled, but funds were
tight, so
we did all the work we could ourselves. We hired a track loader to
excavate
a 25' by 65' recess into a south facing hillside, and then hand dug footer
trenches, poured 15 yards of concrete in them, and started slipforming
stone
walls. We placed locally gathered stone into the forms and mixed concrete
with a gas mixer to fill around the stone. Once set up, the form could be
moved, using the same forms over and over again to move down the walls.

I then felled and ripped posts and beams from oak trees on our property. I
also cut Eastern Red Cedar(Juniper) into 16" lengths to stack for drying.
After framing and decking the original shed roof, we poured another 15
yards
of concrete with the help of friends and neighbors for a slab. We floated
the slab surface for texture, and stained it a dark brown to improve solar
absorption. After 15 months of drying time, we could wait no longer
for the
cedar to dry further, so we started building with it. First I built a
shaving horse and using a drawknife, I had to peel all of the bark
from the
cedar. I later learned that if I had cut the cedar in the spring, when the
sap is up, it would of peeled more easily. Laying two strips of
sawdust rich
mortar along the inside and outside of the wall, I laid the 16" cedar
lengths onto them, filling the inner space with insulation. This way there
is no continuous mortar bond through the wall to transfer heat. The cedar
cordwood wall was labor intensive, but cost little cash to build. Everyone
likes the way it looks and smells. However, soon after moving in we
noticed
drafts where the wood meets mortar- air infiltration. When the wind blew
rain
through the wall, I knew I had to cover the outside of the cedar.

I first used 6 mil plastic, covered with hand split oak shakes. It helped
with the infiltration, but insects found the shakes provide a good home,
several types of wasps, even a bat moved in. I finally removed the shakes
and plastic, tacked 5/8" closed cell Styrofoam board over the cedar, and
stuccoed over the entire outside wall. This stopped the insects and
infiltration. I now do not recommend cordwood walls for dwellings, as the
rate of expansion/contraction with humidity changes is very different for
mortar and wood, infiltration is inevitable, unless you tightly cover the
outside wall.
Letter to Countryside magazine after several articles from folks trying to
sell their cordwood books-
I feel I have to respond to the recent articles on cordwood with my
personal experiences with this building method. My wife and I designed
and built our earth sheltered, passive solar home, and have been living in
it for 20 years now. See it at-
   http://www.countrysidemag.com/issues/2_1998.htm  and
go to the first, featured article. The house looks totally different
on the
outside now. My home is designed to be energy efficient, unfortunately the
original design of the cordwood wall was the weakest link, the
leakiest wall
of them all by far. Cordwood is very labor intensive, it has too many
wood-mortar interfaces, it`s inexpensive, but only if you don`t count
labor.
Check out my article at-
http://www.daycreek.com/dc/html/doug_kalmer.htm
We first air dried winter cut Eastern Red Cedar (Juniper). After 15 months
of drying time, we could wait no longer for the cedar to dry further,
so we
started building with it. First I built a shaving horse and using a
drawknife, I had to peel all of the bark from the cedar. I later learned
that if I had cut the cedar in the spring, when the sap is up, it would of
peeled more easily, but taken longer to dry.  Laying two strips of sawdust
rich mortar along the inside and outside of the wall, I laid the 16" cedar
lengths onto them, filling the inner space with fiberglass or styrofoam
insulation. Soon after moving in we noticed drafts where the wood meets
mortar- air infiltration. Maybe the drying time wasn`t long enough, but
wood expands and contracts with changing humidity levels, while mortar
does not. This makes many gaps open up in the interfaces between the
wood and mortar, allowing infiltration. I tried to caulk around each log
end inside with clear silicone, even that opened gaps over time. When
the wind blew rain through the wall, I knew I had to cover the outside
of the cedar.  I first used 6 mil plastic, covered with hand split oak
shakes. It helped with the infiltration, but insects found the shakes
provide a good home, several types of wasps, even a bat moved in. I
finally removed the shakes and plastic, tacked 5/8" closed cell Styrofoam
board over the cedar, and stuccoed over the entire outside wall. This
stopped the insects and infiltration, but my solution to cover the outside
causes concern about moisture build-up in the winter, and possibly rot.
Moisture from the living space will condense inside the wall when outdoor
temperatures are low. I can`t imagine how a sawdust filled cordwood wall
would ever dry out, if moisture got into the sawdust. Cordwood can leave
lots of places for rodents and insects. I installed a fan in the cordwood
wall between the attached greenhouse and the house, it was very
difficult to
open a hole in the wall, and to seal it around the fan.  I`ve tried to be
fair about the pro`s and con`s of cordwood. My wife and I like the unique
attractiveness of the wall, but realize the time, effort and energy
inefficiencies involved are not outweighed by the looks or low cost. I did
not recommend this method to a friend who wanted to build a similar home
to mine. Sorry, but that`s the way we see it.We really like the slip
formed
stone walls. They are inexpensive, attractive, unique, airtight, bug
tight,
rotproof, fireproof, waterproof, contain large thermal mass, and will
easily
out last us. Doug Kalmer the cordwood wall was the weakest link, the
leakiest wall
> of them all by far. Cordwood is very labor intensive, it has
> too many wood-mortar interfaces, it`s inexpensive, but only
> if you don`t count labor.

Hi Doug;

Excellent evaluation.  Many inexperienced owner builders
ignore these factors, and think that just because a material
is cheap, that it must cost them less to use, than another.

> Check out my article at-
> http://www.daycreek.com/dc/html/doug_kalmer.htm

> I later learned that if I had cut the cedar in the spring, when the
> sap is up, it would of peeled more easily, but taken longer to dry.

     In late summer the sap is still up but probably not to the same point.
However, peeling the bark as soon as you cut the wood has
several advantages. 1) It will peel easily 2) By exposing the bare
wood, it will dry much faster, and 3) You will not attract insects
to lay eggs in the underlayer of bark (since it won't be there) and
have their larvae bore into your logs.

> Soon after moving in we noticed drafts where the wood meets
> mortar- air infiltration.

This is what happens with any material that has joints. There are
strategies, like caulk that deal with the small areas, but basically
you can trust that twice the crack length will result in twice the
air leakage, and in the case of cordwood, a hundred times as
much crack length will result in a hundred time the air leakage.
Even standard chinked log construction, like my cabin, has a
uge amount of leakage, as does wood siding over the old 1x8
sheating, with no tar paper.  Perhaps the most cost effective
fix, is to have inner walls, and blow them full of cellulose.
That is what I will be doing as I renovate my cabin.

> wood expands and contracts with changing humidity levels,
> while mortar does not. This makes many gaps open up in the
> interfaces between the wood and mortar, allowing infiltration.

Right.......and mortar is not glue.

> I tried to caulk around each log end inside with clear silicone,
> even that opened gaps over time.  When the wind blew rain
> through the wall, I knew I had to cover the outside of the cedar.

Silicone is the best, but no caulk has the "bridging" capacity
to stretch enough to retain a seal.  Let's say that the silicone
can do a fairly good job of sticking to the oily wood.  If you
have 6" log end, that will expand and shrink 3%. That means
that their dimension will change by 0.18", 0.09" on all sides.
Let's say you have a 1/16" gap to calk between the mortar
and the log.  A 1/16" gap is 0.0625, which mean that the
silicone must be able to handle up to about 50% stretching
without breaking, while still holding onto the mortar and the
oily wood. That is asking a lot (too much) from what may
end up being a mile of cracks, that you want to be sealed
for decades.  It is a basic inherent design flaw with full
thickness cord wood walls. I am not saying that cordwood
is not a useful material, just that it can not be trusted to seal
against infiltration. It is also not impressive for insulation, or
as heat/coolth storage. However, it may make a wonderful
siding, or interior finish.  The "savings" are an empty promise,
because of the labor intensity.  What most people are really
attracted to is the aesthetic. You can have those by learning
what the stone layers learned many years ago. That is, to
use log ends as a fairly easy, attrative, decorative veneer,
rather than an extremely labor intensive (and tricky) ,
leaky, poorly insulated load bearing wall.

>  I first used 6 mil plastic, covered with hand split oak
> shakes.

Not good.  The vapor barrier on the outside prevents the
wall from drying, promoting rot, mold and insects.

> I finally removed the shakes and plastic, tacked 5/8" closed cell
> Styrofoam board over the cedar, and stuccoed over the entire
> outside wall. This stopped the insects and infiltration, but my
> solution to cover the outside causes concern about moisture
> build-up in the winter, and possibly rot. Moisture from the living
> space will condense inside the wall when outdoor temperatures
> are low. I can`t imagine how a sawdust filled cordwood wall
> would ever dry out, if moisture got into the sawdust.

That is a realisatic concern.  However, due to the irregularity
of the face of the cordwood wall, your XPS foam did create
a "drainage plane" on its inside surface. Ideally, you can vent
that air gap, with small screened vents at the top and bottom,
which will not convect enough air to have a noticable effect
on your heat loss. However, it is nearly impossible to get any-
-thing sealed completely, so you probably still get some air
movement.  It would have been much better, had you first
hung a  layer of Tyvek, before the foam, then vented the
space  between the two, to outdoors.

> Cordwood can leave lots of places for rodents and insects

   As can any cavity wall, that is not filled with foam
or dense packed cellulose, and probably, even then.

> I`ve tried to be fair about the pro`s and con`s of cordwood.
> My wife and I like the unique attractiveness of the wall, but
> realize the time, effort and energy inefficiencies involved are
> not outweighed by the looks or low cost.

   That is why I suggest simply cutting fast drying slabs, only
2-4" thick, and just laying them up like brick veneer. When
is the last time that we saw the waste of a new full thickness
brick wall?  I think it is about time to get just as rational about
cordwood, and start using it as a veneer as well. As veneer
it can look identical to full thickness cordwood, while not
having hardly any of the problems.

>I did not recommend this method to a friend who wanted to
> build a similar home to mine. Sorry, but that`s the way we see it.

>.We really like the slip formed stone walls. They are inexpensive,
> attractive, unique, airtight, bug tight, rotproof, fireproof,
> waterproof, contain large thermal mass, and will easily
> out last us.

You also needed to insulate those walls on the outside.

-Laren Corie-
Natural Solar Building Designs, Since 1975

   I found Richard Flateau`s and Rob Roy`s reply (May-June `06, Pg 84)
to my
cordwood concerns (March-April `06, pg 8) very interesting. While I
appreciate the polite tone, the substance of the reply is that the
problems
I have had with cordwood are my fault for using the wrong materials and
methods. In it, they claim two major mistakes I made were to use cedar for
the cordwood and to use fiberglass insulation. I got both of those ideas
from Rob Roy`s book-"Underground Houses".(ISBN 0-8069-8856-8) In it
Rob has
a section on "Infilling with Stovewood Masonry", page105. I quote-
"While it is true that almost any wood can be used for log-ends, cedar is
decidedly the best because of it`s high insulative value and it`s
resistance
to insects and rot."
  And from further down the same page, discussing insulation-
"The sawdust in the mortar probably helps a little but, to be really
sure of
a warm wall, I recommend the fiberglass strip method of insulating
described
in the following pages. You can cut the fiberglass strips from a batt of
insulation with a skill knife."
  The next five pages are illustrations of Rob`s methods, including using
fiberglass insulation strips around every layer laid up.
I quote again-
"Figures 80 through 90 are taken from my previous book, How to build
Log-end
Homes, which deals with the subject of stovewood masonry in great depth."

   Since I have reluctantly gotten myself embroiled in this
controversy, both
in Countryside and in online groups, I have done more research and
thinking
about cordwood. I have seen much dissention and very different claims made
in the online cordwood groups. I don`t claim to be an expert, and I`m not
trying to sell anything, but I have built with cordwood, read a lot about
it, seen other cordwood structures, and lived in mine for over 23
years.  I
used several "alternative" building methods when building my
earthsheltered,
direct gain, passive solar, post and beam, slipformed stone, and cordwood
home. I came to all of these methods as a novice, but fairly handy, and
willing to learn and work. I have been pleased with the results of all I
have done, except for cordwood. None of the other systems required as much
labor, tree killing, time spent waiting for the wood to dry, time involved
in construction, for as poorly performing a result as cordwood. None
of the
other systems required me to go back over them to attempt to remedy their
shortcomings.
   Consider the requirements for an energy efficient wall- it should be
airtight and insulation should be exterior to thermal mass. Cordwood walls
mix thermal mass with insulation in two ways- sawdust in the mortar, and
lengths of insulative wood going from exterior to interior, in a matrix of
mortar. This is counter to an energy efficient wall. Wall studs in a well
insulated framed wall are considered "Thermal bridges"- they conduct heat
through the wall better than the insulation does. Another way that
cordwood
reduces the energy efficiency of my home is by the required thickness
of the
walls, I understand cordwood can be built as thin as 8", but it would be
much more difficult to accomplish, and have even less insulative value. My
16" thick cordwood south facing wall blocks morning and afternoon sunlight
from striking my interior thermal mass walls and floor.
   Consider what you have to go through just to be ready for the labor
intensive actual wall construction- Cut down many suitable trees, limb
them,
debark, cut them to length, and split larger pieces. Stack them off the
ground and out of the weather, then wait for years, I waited 15
months, and
have been criticized for not waiting for three years! I`ve been told by
"experts" that I should of cut spring growth wood to make the bark peeling
easier, other "experts" say winter cut is best. I cut in winter, and had a
very hard time removing the bark. I had to build a shaving horse and use a
drawknife to debark. Then after waiting for years, on a curb wall, you get
to mix your choice of many "experts" formulas of sawdust mortar, lay wood
lengths in the two separate beds of mortar, fill in with whatever "expert"
you choose to believe says is best, then you get to go around the many
feet
of cracks both around and in the blocks of wood with Perma-chink, then you
get to clean the faces off of excess mortar.  Compare this to slipforming,
where I can pick up a free stone, brush or rinse it off, and place it
in the
form, pour concrete around it, remove forms, point, add exterior
insulation
and it`s done forever-I have a large thermal mass wall that is water,
fire,
rodent, insect, and rot proof that will look just as good 50 years
from now.

sail4free:  For a long time now I have been telling CWG that he should
not invoke the use of a technique like a "top secret air seal" if he
refuses to divulge the details of it. If it is truly as revolutionary
as he seems to suggest, then how can he claim to be a champion of
cordwood building if he withholds information that would be crucial
to all cordwood builders? My frustraion with his refusal to share the
technique with his readers finally compelled me to propose the
invention of a similar device / technique which I named the Jellylord
Affable Cordwood Kibitzer Air Seal System, also known as
J.A.C.K.A.S.S.. You can read all about it in post # 4598 from July 4,
2004 and in subsequent posts #4601, 4631, and 4633.

Jellylord

Where is the cordwood home that was partially eaten by termites
located in FL?  {Bearlution}

New to the group, have no experience in this building technique. So
I figure as a way to develop some skills I might try something
simple.

Project: I have fencing in the back yard that needs replacing. Here
in Texas its a landscape post and dog ear fencing panels. The posts
are sound and about 6" width. Panels are of course, shot.

Proposal: Remove the old fencing panels natch and replace with with
a cordwood construction. I would pour at least a 1' concrete footer
between the posts to get the cordwood off the ground. Then use the
cordwood construction as infill between the posts. Cap off with a
precast concrete capstone at the top to provide protection in the
wet. None of this would be structural in nature.

Questions:

1/ At ~6" width will this provide enough strength for the wall?
Texas can get high wind gusts and I am wondering about side loads
with so thin a wall.

2/ Any additional suggestions with such full exposure to the
elements?

Thanks for your time.

--- In cordwood@yahoogroups.com, "sail4free" <sail4free@...> wrote:
>
> ==========
> CORDWOODGUY: "SAIL4FREE.........REFRESH ME! I`M NOT AWARE OF ME
> RECOMMENDING INSULATION ON THE OUTSIDE???"
> ==========
> I THINK I MISUNDERSTOOD -- THIS IS THE QUOTE I COPIED & PASTED
FROM
> CORDWOOD2:
> ==========
> "I AM PLACING A 24" CORDWOOD WALL ON MY 8"-10" STEM WALL WITH MY
> ENGINEERS APPROVAL.  IT'S A BASIC ENGINEERING CONCEPT CALLED
> CANTILEVERED.  MIND YOU I ONLY PLAN TO OVER LAP THE FOUNDATION TO
HIDE
> MY INSULATION ON THE OUTER WALL.[2"-3"]
> SO I HAVE AS MUCH CORDWOOD WALL ON THE FOUNDATION AS I DO ON THE
> BEEFED UP FLOOR.
> ==========
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/CORDWOOD2/message/4
> ==========
> IN RE-READING IT, ARE YOU TALKING ABOUT INSULATING THE OUTSIDE OF
THE
> CONCRETE STEM WALL -- ONLY -- AND CANTILEVERING THE CORDWOOD SO
THE
> OUTSIDE FACE OF THE CORDWOOD AND THE OUTSIDE FACE OF WHATEVER
> PROTECTS THE INSULATION ON THE STEM WALL ARE FLUSH?

*******************************
SAIL4FREE.................YES!
*******************************


> ==========
> SAIL4FREE
> ==========
> PS -- I DO ALMOST ALL OF MY EDITING AND RESPONDING IN NOTEPAD.  I
CAN
> MAKE THE NOTEPAD WINDOW AS LARGE AS MY SCREEN.  I COPY & PASTE THE
> MESSAGE TO THE NOTEPAD WINDOW.  THEN I CLICK "EDIT" AND "SELECT
ALL"
> WHICH HIGHLIGHTS ALL THE TEXT IN THE WINDOW.  I CLICK "EDIT" AGAIN
> AND "SET FONT" AND I CAN CHANGE THE TEXT SIZE AND MAKE IT AS BIG
AS I
> NEED.  THEN CLICKING ANYWHERE IN THE WINDOW REMOVES THE HIGHLIGHT
FOR
> REGULAR EDITING.  (ONCE THESE SETTINGS ARE SELECTED, ANY TIME YOU
> PASTE TO NOTEPAD, IT SHOULD DISPLAY IN THE LARGER CHOSEN FONT
> AUTOMATICALLY -- WITHOUT HAVING TO GO THROUGH THIS SEQUENCE EACH
> TIME.)
> ==========
> WHEN I'M DONE AND READY TO POST TO GROUP, I JUST CLICK ON "EDIT"
> AND "SELECT ALL" WHICH HIGHLIGHTS EVERYTHING IN THE WINDOW.  THEN
I
> HOLD DOWN "CTRL" AND "C" AT THE SAME TIME.  (THIS SAVES ALL THE
TEXT
> TO AN INVISIBLE CLIPBOARD.)  TO POST ALL THE TEXT TO GROUP, I HOLD
> DOWN "CTRL" AND "V" AND IT DOWNSIZES THE FONT AUTOMATICALLY AND
> DISPLAYS IN THE POST WINDOW AT THE USUAL SIZE.
> ==========
> I DID THE ABOVE IN 20 FONT AND POSTED IT ACCORDING TO THE ABOVE
> DIRECTIONS AS A TEST.  I'M HAPPY TO FINE TUNE THESE DIRECTIONS OFF
> LIST IF YOU PREFER.  IT SEEMS A LITTLE COMPLICATED AT FIRST BUT
WITH
> REPITITION, IT GETS SO EASY I DO IT NOW WITHOUT REALLY THINKING
ABOUT
> IT.
> ==========
>

SAIL4FREE.............THANKS FOR THE TIP I`LL TRY DECIFER IT.ANOTHER
THING I`M NOT ALL THAT COMPUTER SAVY AS WELL.

                CORDWOODGUY

--- In cordwood@yahoogroups.com, "freysurt" <frey-surt@...> wrote:

  I PREVIOUSLY REPONDED TO THIS POST ON ANOTHER BOARD AND HERE AS
WELL.THE PERSON SAID THAT CORDWOOD WAS THE WEAKEST LINK....IN A
REPLY I MADE TO IT HERE I CORRECTED THE MISTAKES THE INDIVIDUAL MADE
DUE TO INEXPERIENCE RATHER THAN CORDWOOD AS A SYSTEM.HE CUT AT THE
RIGHT TIME BUT DIDN`T SEASON OR TREAT THE WOOD PROPERLY.HE SEALED
THE WALL CREATING A MOISTURE PROBLEM.HIS DESIGN WOULD LEAD TO WATER
PENETRATING THE WALL AS WELL.



>
>
>  In 1982 my wife and I bought 34 acres in Tennessee, and started
to build
> our dream home, passive solar space and water heating, earth
> sheltered, post
> and beam framed, slipformed stone, with cedar cordwood infilled
south
> wall.
> We had some money from selling a house I remodeled, but funds were
> tight, so
> we did all the work we could ourselves. We hired a track loader to
> excavate
> a 25' by 65' recess into a south facing hillside, and then hand
dug footer
> trenches, poured 15 yards of concrete in them, and started
slipforming
> stone
> walls. We placed locally gathered stone into the forms and mixed
concrete
> with a gas mixer to fill around the stone. Once set up, the form
could be
> moved, using the same forms over and over again to move down the
walls.
>
> I then felled and ripped posts and beams from oak trees on our
property. I
> also cut Eastern Red Cedar(Juniper) into 16" lengths to stack for
drying.
> After framing and decking the original shed roof, we poured
another 15
> yards
> of concrete with the help of friends and neighbors for a slab. We
floated
> the slab surface for texture, and stained it a dark brown to
improve solar
> absorption. After 15 months of drying time, we could wait no longer
> for the
> cedar to dry further, so we started building with it. First I
built a
> shaving horse and using a drawknife, I had to peel all of the bark
> from the
> cedar. I later learned that if I had cut the cedar in the spring,
when the
> sap is up, it would of peeled more easily. Laying two strips of
> sawdust rich
> mortar along the inside and outside of the wall, I laid the 16"
cedar
> lengths onto them, filling the inner space with insulation. This
way there
> is no continuous mortar bond through the wall to transfer heat.
The cedar
> cordwood wall was labor intensive, but cost little cash to build.
Everyone
> likes the way it looks and smells. However, soon after moving in we
> noticed
> drafts where the wood meets mortar- air infiltration. When the
wind blew
> rain
> through the wall, I knew I had to cover the outside of the cedar.
>
> I first used 6 mil plastic, covered with hand split oak shakes. It
helped
> with the infiltration, but insects found the shakes provide a good
home,
> several types of wasps, even a bat moved in. I finally removed the
shakes
> and plastic, tacked 5/8" closed cell Styrofoam board over the
cedar, and
> stuccoed over the entire outside wall. This stopped the insects and
> infiltration. I now do not recommend cordwood walls for dwellings,
as the
> rate of expansion/contraction with humidity changes is very
different for
> mortar and wood, infiltration is inevitable, unless you tightly
cover the
> outside wall.
> Letter to Countryside magazine after several articles from folks
trying to
> sell their cordwood books-
> I feel I have to respond to the recent articles on cordwood with my
> personal experiences with this building method. My wife and I
designed
> and built our earth sheltered, passive solar home, and have been
living in
> it for 20 years now. See it at-
>   http://www.countrysidemag.com/issues/2_1998.htm  and
> go to the first, featured article. The house looks totally
different
> on the
> outside now. My home is designed to be energy efficient,
unfortunately the
> original design of the cordwood wall was the weakest link, the
> leakiest wall
> of them all by far. Cordwood is very labor intensive, it has too
many
> wood-mortar interfaces, it`s inexpensive, but only if you don`t
count
> labor.
> Check out my article at-
> http://www.daycreek.com/dc/html/doug_kalmer.htm
> We first air dried winter cut Eastern Red Cedar (Juniper). After
15 months
> of drying time, we could wait no longer for the cedar to dry
further,
> so we
> started building with it. First I built a shaving horse and using a
> drawknife, I had to peel all of the bark from the cedar. I later
learned
> that if I had cut the cedar in the spring, when the sap is up, it
would of
> peeled more easily, but taken longer to dry.  Laying two strips of
sawdust
> rich mortar along the inside and outside of the wall, I laid the
16" cedar
> lengths onto them, filling the inner space with fiberglass or
styrofoam
> insulation. Soon after moving in we noticed drafts where the wood
meets
> mortar- air infiltration. Maybe the drying time wasn`t long
enough, but
> wood expands and contracts with changing humidity levels, while
mortar
> does not. This makes many gaps open up in the interfaces between
the
> wood and mortar, allowing infiltration. I tried to caulk around
each log
> end inside with clear silicone, even that opened gaps over time.
When
> the wind blew rain through the wall, I knew I had to cover the
outside
> of the cedar.  I first used 6 mil plastic, covered with hand split
oak
> shakes. It helped with the infiltration, but insects found the
shakes
> provide a good home, several types of wasps, even a bat moved in. I
> finally removed the shakes and plastic, tacked 5/8" closed cell
Styrofoam
> board over the cedar, and stuccoed over the entire outside wall.
This
> stopped the insects and infiltration, but my solution to cover the
outside
> causes concern about moisture build-up in the winter, and possibly
rot.
> Moisture from the living space will condense inside the wall when
outdoor
> temperatures are low. I can`t imagine how a sawdust filled
cordwood wall
> would ever dry out, if moisture got into the sawdust. Cordwood can
leave
> lots of places for rodents and insects. I installed a fan in the
cordwood
> wall between the attached greenhouse and the house, it was very
> difficult to
> open a hole in the wall, and to seal it around the fan.  I`ve
tried to be
> fair about the pro`s and con`s of cordwood. My wife and I like the
unique
> attractiveness of the wall, but realize the time, effort and energy
> inefficiencies involved are not outweighed by the looks or low
cost. I did
> not recommend this method to a friend who wanted to build a
similar home
> to mine. Sorry, but that`s the way we see it.We really like the
slip
> formed
> stone walls. They are inexpensive, attractive, unique, airtight,
bug
> tight,
> rotproof, fireproof, waterproof, contain large thermal mass, and
will
> easily
> out last us. Doug Kalmer the cordwood wall was the weakest link,
the
> leakiest wall
> > of them all by far. Cordwood is very labor intensive, it has
> > too many wood-mortar interfaces, it`s inexpensive, but only
> > if you don`t count labor.
>
> Hi Doug;
>
> Excellent evaluation.  Many inexperienced owner builders
> ignore these factors, and think that just because a material
> is cheap, that it must cost them less to use, than another.
>
> > Check out my article at-
> > http://www.daycreek.com/dc/html/doug_kalmer.htm
>
> > I later learned that if I had cut the cedar in the spring, when
the
> > sap is up, it would of peeled more easily, but taken longer to
dry.
>
>     In late summer the sap is still up but probably not to the
same point.
> However, peeling the bark as soon as you cut the wood has
> several advantages. 1) It will peel easily 2) By exposing the bare
> wood, it will dry much faster, and 3) You will not attract insects
> to lay eggs in the underlayer of bark (since it won't be there) and
> have their larvae bore into your logs.
>
> > Soon after moving in we noticed drafts where the wood meets
> > mortar- air infiltration.
>
> This is what happens with any material that has joints. There are
> strategies, like caulk that deal with the small areas, but
basically
> you can trust that twice the crack length will result in twice the
> air leakage, and in the case of cordwood, a hundred times as
> much crack length will result in a hundred time the air leakage.
> Even standard chinked log construction, like my cabin, has a
> uge amount of leakage, as does wood siding over the old 1x8
> sheating, with no tar paper.  Perhaps the most cost effective
> fix, is to have inner walls, and blow them full of cellulose.
> That is what I will be doing as I renovate my cabin.
>
> > wood expands and contracts with changing humidity levels,
> > while mortar does not. This makes many gaps open up in the
> > interfaces between the wood and mortar, allowing infiltration.
>
> Right.......and mortar is not glue.
>
> > I tried to caulk around each log end inside with clear silicone,
> > even that opened gaps over time.  When the wind blew rain
> > through the wall, I knew I had to cover the outside of the cedar.
>
> Silicone is the best, but no caulk has the "bridging" capacity
> to stretch enough to retain a seal.  Let's say that the silicone
> can do a fairly good job of sticking to the oily wood.  If you
> have 6" log end, that will expand and shrink 3%. That means
> that their dimension will change by 0.18", 0.09" on all sides.
> Let's say you have a 1/16" gap to calk between the mortar
> and the log.  A 1/16" gap is 0.0625, which mean that the
> silicone must be able to handle up to about 50% stretching
> without breaking, while still holding onto the mortar and the
> oily wood. That is asking a lot (too much) from what may
> end up being a mile of cracks, that you want to be sealed
> for decades.  It is a basic inherent design flaw with full
> thickness cord wood walls. I am not saying that cordwood
> is not a useful material, just that it can not be trusted to seal
> against infiltration. It is also not impressive for insulation, or
> as heat/coolth storage. However, it may make a wonderful
> siding, or interior finish.  The "savings" are an empty promise,
> because of the labor intensity.  What most people are really
> attracted to is the aesthetic. You can have those by learning
> what the stone layers learned many years ago. That is, to
> use log ends as a fairly easy, attrative, decorative veneer,
> rather than an extremely labor intensive (and tricky) ,
> leaky, poorly insulated load bearing wall.
>
> >  I first used 6 mil plastic, covered with hand split oak
> > shakes.
>
> Not good.  The vapor barrier on the outside prevents the
> wall from drying, promoting rot, mold and insects.
>
> > I finally removed the shakes and plastic, tacked 5/8" closed cell
> > Styrofoam board over the cedar, and stuccoed over the entire
> > outside wall. This stopped the insects and infiltration, but my
> > solution to cover the outside causes concern about moisture
> > build-up in the winter, and possibly rot. Moisture from the
living
> > space will condense inside the wall when outdoor temperatures
> > are low. I can`t imagine how a sawdust filled cordwood wall
> > would ever dry out, if moisture got into the sawdust.
>
> That is a realisatic concern.  However, due to the irregularity
> of the face of the cordwood wall, your XPS foam did create
> a "drainage plane" on its inside surface. Ideally, you can vent
> that air gap, with small screened vents at the top and bottom,
> which will not convect enough air to have a noticable effect
> on your heat loss. However, it is nearly impossible to get any-
> -thing sealed completely, so you probably still get some air
> movement.  It would have been much better, had you first
> hung a  layer of Tyvek, before the foam, then vented the
> space  between the two, to outdoors.
>
> > Cordwood can leave lots of places for rodents and insects
>
>   As can any cavity wall, that is not filled with foam
> or dense packed cellulose, and probably, even then.
>
> > I`ve tried to be fair about the pro`s and con`s of cordwood.
> > My wife and I like the unique attractiveness of the wall, but
> > realize the time, effort and energy inefficiencies involved are
> > not outweighed by the looks or low cost.
>
>   That is why I suggest simply cutting fast drying slabs, only
> 2-4" thick, and just laying them up like brick veneer. When
> is the last time that we saw the waste of a new full thickness
> brick wall?  I think it is about time to get just as rational about
> cordwood, and start using it as a veneer as well. As veneer
> it can look identical to full thickness cordwood, while not
> having hardly any of the problems.
>
> >I did not recommend this method to a friend who wanted to
> > build a similar home to mine. Sorry, but that`s the way we see
it.
>
> >.We really like the slip formed stone walls. They are inexpensive,
> > attractive, unique, airtight, bug tight, rotproof, fireproof,
> > waterproof, contain large thermal mass, and will easily
> > out last us.
>
> You also needed to insulate those walls on the outside.
>
> -Laren Corie-
> Natural Solar Building Designs, Since 1975
>
>   I found Richard Flateau`s and Rob Roy`s reply (May-June `06, Pg
84)
> to my
> cordwood concerns (March-April `06, pg 8) very interesting. While I
> appreciate the polite tone, the substance of the reply is that the
> problems
> I have had with cordwood are my fault for using the wrong
materials and
> methods. In it, they claim two major mistakes I made were to use
cedar for
> the cordwood and to use fiberglass insulation. I got both of those
ideas
> from Rob Roy`s book-"Underground Houses".(ISBN 0-8069-8856-8) In it
> Rob has
> a section on "Infilling with Stovewood Masonry", page105. I quote-
> "While it is true that almost any wood can be used for log-ends,
cedar is
> decidedly the best because of it`s high insulative value and it`s
> resistance
> to insects and rot."
>  And from further down the same page, discussing insulation-
> "The sawdust in the mortar probably helps a little but, to be
really
> sure of
> a warm wall, I recommend the fiberglass strip method of insulating
> described
> in the following pages. You can cut the fiberglass strips from a
batt of
> insulation with a skill knife."
>  The next five pages are illustrations of Rob`s methods, including
using
> fiberglass insulation strips around every layer laid up.
> I quote again-
> "Figures 80 through 90 are taken from my previous book, How to
build
> Log-end
> Homes, which deals with the subject of stovewood masonry in great
depth."
>
>   Since I have reluctantly gotten myself embroiled in this
> controversy, both
> in Countryside and in online groups, I have done more research and
> thinking
> about cordwood. I have seen much dissention and very different
claims made
> in the online cordwood groups. I don`t claim to be an expert, and
I`m not
> trying to sell anything, but I have built with cordwood, read a
lot about
> it, seen other cordwood structures, and lived in mine for over 23
> years.  I
> used several "alternative" building methods when building my
> earthsheltered,
> direct gain, passive solar, post and beam, slipformed stone, and
cordwood
> home. I came to all of these methods as a novice, but fairly
handy, and
> willing to learn and work. I have been pleased with the results of
all I
> have done, except for cordwood. None of the other systems required
as much
> labor, tree killing, time spent waiting for the wood to dry, time
involved
> in construction, for as poorly performing a result as cordwood.
None
> of the
> other systems required me to go back over them to attempt to
remedy their
> shortcomings.
>   Consider the requirements for an energy efficient wall- it
should be
> airtight and insulation should be exterior to thermal mass.
Cordwood walls
> mix thermal mass with insulation in two ways- sawdust in the
mortar, and
> lengths of insulative wood going from exterior to interior, in a
matrix of
> mortar. This is counter to an energy efficient wall. Wall studs in
a well
> insulated framed wall are considered "Thermal bridges"- they
conduct heat
> through the wall better than the insulation does. Another way that
> cordwood
> reduces the energy efficiency of my home is by the required
thickness
> of the
> walls, I understand cordwood can be built as thin as 8", but it
would be
> much more difficult to accomplish, and have even less insulative
value. My
> 16" thick cordwood south facing wall blocks morning and afternoon
sunlight
> from striking my interior thermal mass walls and floor.
>   Consider what you have to go through just to be ready for the
labor
> intensive actual wall construction- Cut down many suitable trees,
limb
> them,
> debark, cut them to length, and split larger pieces. Stack them
off the
> ground and out of the weather, then wait for years, I waited 15
> months, and
> have been criticized for not waiting for three years! I`ve been
told by
> "experts" that I should of cut spring growth wood to make the bark
peeling
> easier, other "experts" say winter cut is best. I cut in winter,
and had a
> very hard time removing the bark. I had to build a shaving horse
and use a
> drawknife to debark. Then after waiting for years, on a curb wall,
you get
> to mix your choice of many "experts" formulas of sawdust mortar,
lay wood
> lengths in the two separate beds of mortar, fill in with
whatever "expert"
> you choose to believe says is best, then you get to go around the
many
> feet
> of cracks both around and in the blocks of wood with Perma-chink,
then you
> get to clean the faces off of excess mortar.  Compare this to
slipforming,
> where I can pick up a free stone, brush or rinse it off, and place
it
> in the
> form, pour concrete around it, remove forms, point, add exterior
> insulation
> and it`s done forever-I have a large thermal mass wall that is
water,
> fire,
> rodent, insect, and rot proof that will look just as good 50 years
> from now.
>

>
> Hi Doug;
>
> Excellent evaluation.

FREYSURF.................WHAT ACTUALLY ARE YOU AGREEING TO...LOL?


Many inexperienced owner builders
> ignore these factors, and think that just because a material
> is cheap, that it must cost them less to use, than another.
>
> > Check out my article at-
> > http://www.daycreek.com/dc/html/doug_kalmer.htm
>
> > I later learned that if I had cut the cedar in the spring, when
the
> > sap is up, it would of peeled more easily, but taken longer to
dry.
>
>     In late summer the sap is still up but probably not to the
same point.

FREYSURF........IF YOU CUT THE WOOD IN THE SPRING YOU HAVE WAITED
TOO LONG.IT WOULD DRAW UP ALL THE MOISTURE OUT OF THE ROOTS AND
GROUND.BY CUTTING IN THE WINTER YOU GAIN SOMEWHAT FROM THE LOSS OF
MOISTURE.SECONDLY IF YOU LEAVE THE BRANCHES ON ,THEY WILL DRAW MORE
MOISTURE OUT OF THE LOG.ONCE YOU PEEL THEM IN THE SPRING YOU HAVE TO
TREAT THE WOOD AS BILLIONS OF SPORES ARE LOOKING FOR A FOOD SOURCE.
                CUTTING IN THE SUMMER IS THE WORST TIME OF YEAR AS
YOU GET INTO RAPID DEHYDRATION AND THE LOGS WILL SPLIT EXCESSIVELY.
TO PREVENT CHECKING YOU HAVE TO CONTROL THE SEASONING.



> However, peeling the bark as soon as you cut the wood has
> several advantages. 1) It will peel easily 2) By exposing the bare
> wood, it will dry much faster, and 3) You will not attract insects
> to lay eggs in the underlayer of bark (since it won't be there) and
> have their larvae bore into your logs.


FREYSURF.........SINCE 1OBC IT HAS BEEN WRITEN AS TO THE PROPER TIME
TO CUT LOGS.ITS IN THE WINTER.THIS IS KNOWN TO PROFESSIONAL LOG
BUILDERS AND FORESTRY RESEARCHERS.I ASKED THE QUESTION ON A MILLING
BOARD AND THE MODERATORS ARE EDITORS ON A WOOD WORKING MAGAZINE AS
WELL.THEY ALL WINTER CUT.
                 YOUR CONCEPT OF DRYING IS AS BAD AS THE CORDWOOD
BOOKS.THERE ARE NO SHORT CUTS TO RAPID DRYING OF LOGS.RAPID DRYING
CAUSES STRESS AND THIS RIPS THE LOGS APPART.IF THE WOOD IS TREATED
AND SEASONED AS WELL AS FELLED PROPERLY,YOU CAN VERTUALLY ELIMINATE
CHECKING.THIS IS COMMON PRACTICE BY LUMBER YARDS.
                 AS FOR TREATING THE LOGS IN MY SYSTEM ALL
INSECTS,MOLDS,BACTERIA,FUNGI,SAP STAIN,MILDEW ARE CONTROLED BEFORE
THEY GET HOLD ON THE LOGS.BUT THE SUMMER LEAVES THEM OPEN TO ATTACK
WHEN THEY ARE WET AND JUICY.
                 AS FOR LARVAE AND INSECTS,THEY ARE MOST LIKEY IN THE
WOOD ALREADY.SOME LARVAE WILL COME TO LIFE AS LATE AS 7 YEARS AFTER
THE TREE WAS CUT DEPENDING ON CONDITIONS.I`VE FOUND TUNNELS IN CEDAR
LOGS UNDER THE BARK AFTER I PEELED THEM.MIND YOU IF UNTREATED PINE
BEETLES WILL ATTACK A NEWLY FEELED TREE.
>
> > Soon after moving in we noticed drafts where the wood meets
> > mortar- air infiltration.
>
> This is what happens with any material that has joints. There are
> strategies, like caulk that deal with the small areas, but
basically
> you can trust that twice the crack length will result in twice the
> air leakage, and in the case of cordwood, a hundred times as
> much crack length will result in a hundred time the air leakage.
> Even standard chinked log construction, like my cabin, has a
> uge amount of leakage, as does wood siding over the old 1x8
> sheating, with no tar paper.  Perhaps the most cost effective
> fix, is to have inner walls, and blow them full of cellulose.
> That is what I will be doing as I renovate my cabin.

FREYSURF.......WOULD PUTTING CELLULOSE IN A WET ENVIRONMENT BE THAT
WISE?

>
> > wood expands and contracts with changing humidity levels,
> > while mortar does not. This makes many gaps open up in the
> > interfaces between the wood and mortar, allowing infiltration.


FREYSURF.........THIS IS THE FIRST THING THAT YOU SAID THAT I`LL
AGREE TO COMPLETELY.BUT IF ONE HAS THE LOGS PROPERLY AIR DRIED TO
REACH THE EQILIBRIUM MOISTURE CONTENT OF THE AIR.THEN YOU WOULDN`T
GET EXTREME SHRINKAGE.BASICLY THE AUTHORS HAVEN`T ACKNOWLEDGED THIS
HAPPENS.LOL!
                   BECAUSE OF THIS I DESIGNED AN AIR SEAL TO CONTROL
THE SWELLING AND SHRINKAGE BY FILLING THE SPACE.IT EVEN HAS A FAIL
SAFE BUILT IN.BUT CAULKING IS A SIMPLE FIX.
                    ALSO TO HELP STOP THE GAPS,I RECESS/PRIDE THE
JOINT IF I`M WORRIED ABOUT SHRINKAGE.THEN AFTER TWO YEARS I THEN
REPOINT THE LOGS FLUSH AND THIS FILLS THE GAP.I HAVE POWDERY
MATERIALS I BLOW INTO THE GAPS AND THEY SWELL INSIDE
>
> Right.......and mortar is not glue.
>
> > I tried to caulk around each log end inside with clear silicone,
> > even that opened gaps over time.  When the wind blew rain
> > through the wall, I knew I had to cover the outside of the cedar.
>
> Silicone is the best, but no caulk has the "bridging" capacity
> to stretch enough to retain a seal.

FREYSURF.........WRONG!PERMA CHINK CAN STRETCH FOR SEVERAL INCHES.IN
A CORDWOOD GAP WE ARE TALKING LESS THAN A 1/4"


  Let's say that the silicone
> can do a fairly good job of sticking to the oily wood.  If you
> have 6" log end, that will expand and shrink 3%. That means
> that their dimension will change by 0.18", 0.09" on all sides.
> Let's say you have a 1/16" gap to calk between the mortar
> and the log.  A 1/16" gap is 0.0625, which mean that the
> silicone must be able to handle up to about 50% stretching
> without breaking, while still holding onto the mortar and the
> oily wood. That is asking a lot (too much) from what may
> end up being a mile of cracks, that you want to be sealed
> for decades.  It is a basic inherent design flaw with full
> thickness cord wood walls. I am not saying that cordwood
> is not a useful material, just that it can not be trusted to seal
> against infiltration.

FREYSURF..........NOT ACCORDING TO MY STRUCTURAL ENGINEER.HE SAYS MY
AIR SEAL WILL WORK.


It is also not impressive for insulation, or
> as heat/coolth storage.

FREYSURF............GEE,I GUESS MY R=96 CORDWOOD WALL DOESN`T
QUALIFY.EVEN SAWDUST HAS OVER AN R=3 PER INCH.


However, it may make a wonderful
> siding, or interior finish.  The "savings" are an empty promise,
> because of the labor intensity.  What most people are really
> attracted to is the aesthetic. You can have those by learning
> what the stone layers learned many years ago. That is, to
> use log ends as a fairly easy, attrative, decorative veneer,
> rather than an extremely labor intensive (and tricky) ,
> leaky, poorly insulated load bearing wall.


FREYSURF.........AGAIN, A COMMON R-VALUE FOR OLDER HOMES IS R-12.
CORDWOOD AT ITS LOWEST WOULD EXCEED THAT BY DOUBLE.AS FOR A FAUX
CORDWOOD WALL ...WHY MAKE A REGULAR HOME LOOK WORSE/why devalue
it..lol!
>
> >  I first used 6 mil plastic, covered with hand split oak
> > shakes.
>
> Not good.  The vapor barrier on the outside prevents the
> wall from drying, promoting rot, mold and insects.
>
> > I finally removed the shakes and plastic, tacked 5/8" closed cell
> > Styrofoam board over the cedar, and stuccoed over the entire
> > outside wall. This stopped the insects and infiltration, but my
> > solution to cover the outside causes concern about moisture
> > build-up in the winter, and possibly rot. Moisture from the
living
> > space will condense inside the wall when outdoor temperatures
> > are low. I can`t imagine how a sawdust filled cordwood wall
> > would ever dry out, if moisture got into the sawdust.


FREYSURF........MOISTURE DOES GET INTO IT THAT HOW IT BECOMES
CEMENTINOUS.YET,NO ONE HAS EVER SEEN A PROBLEM WITH THE
MATERIAL.OTHER THAN ME REALIZING IT CREATES THE GAPS.WHERE A FREE
FLOWING INSULATION WOULD NATURALLY FILL THE VOIDS.

>
> That is a realisatic concern.  However, due to the irregularity
> of the face of the cordwood wall, your XPS foam did create
> a "drainage plane" on its inside surface. Ideally, you can vent
> that air gap, with small screened vents at the top and bottom,
> which will not convect enough air to have a noticable effect
> on your heat loss. However, it is nearly impossible to get any-
> -thing sealed completely, so you probably still get some air
> movement.  It would have been much better, had you first
> hung a  layer of Tyvek, before the foam, then vented the
> space  between the two, to outdoors.
>
> > Cordwood can leave lots of places for rodents and insects
>
>   As can any cavity wall, that is not filled with foam
> or dense packed cellulose, and probably, even then.



FREYSURF.............THE LIME IN THE MORTAR AND THE BORAX TREATMENTS
KILL ALL VERMIN OR DETER THEM.MY FRIEND DENSE PACKED CELLULOSE WOULD
LOSE ITS R-VALUE PLUS WHEN WET WOULD DECOMPOSE AND COMPRESS THEN
CREATE GAPS ANYWAYS.
>
> > I`ve tried to be fair about the pro`s and con`s of cordwood.
> > My wife and I like the unique attractiveness of the wall, but
> > realize the time, effort and energy inefficiencies involved are
> > not outweighed by the looks or low cost.
>
>   That is why I suggest simply cutting fast drying slabs, only
> 2-4" thick, and just laying them up like brick veneer. When
> is the last time that we saw the waste of a new full thickness
> brick wall?  I think it is about time to get just as rational about
> cordwood, and start using it as a veneer as well. As veneer
> it can look identical to full thickness cordwood, while not
> having hardly any of the problems.



FREYSURF.............AGAIN FAUX CORDWOOD?WHY WOULD SOME ONE WANT TO
MAKE A CONVENTIONAL HOME LOOK LIKE POORMANS ARCHITECTURE?
>
> >I did not recommend this method to a friend who wanted to
> > build a similar home to mine. Sorry, but that`s the way we see
it.
>
> >.We really like the slip formed stone walls. They are inexpensive,
> > attractive, unique, airtight, bug tight, rotproof, fireproof,
> > waterproof, contain large thermal mass, and will easily
> > out last us.
>
> You also needed to insulate those walls on the outside.
>
> -Laren Corie-
> Natural Solar Building Designs, Since 1975
>
>   I found Richard Flateau`s and Rob Roy`s reply (May-June `06, Pg
84)
> to my
> cordwood concerns (March-April `06, pg 8) very interesting. While I
> appreciate the polite tone, the substance of the reply is that the
> problems
> I have had with cordwood are my fault for using the wrong
materials and
> methods. In it, they claim two major mistakes I made were to use
cedar for
> the cordwood and to use fiberglass insulation.

FREYSURF.........CEDARB UIS ONE OF THE BEST WOODS FOR CORDWOOD! THAT
HAS TO BE A MISQUOTE.
                  I`VE SEEN PICTURES OF ROBS NEWEST HOME AND IT SURE
LOOKS LIKE FIBERGLASS IN THE WALL TO ME.LIKE HE USED IN HIS OTHER
HOMES.LOL!


I got both of those ideas
> from Rob Roy`s book-"Underground Houses".(ISBN 0-8069-8856-8) In it
> Rob has
> a section on "Infilling with Stovewood Masonry", page105. I quote-
> "While it is true that almost any wood can be used for log-ends,
cedar is
> decidedly the best because of it`s high insulative value and it`s
> resistance
> to insects and rot."

FREYSURF............LEFT UNTREATED AS ALL THE AUTHORS
SUGGEST.PLACING CEDAR IN A WET SITUATION IT WILL ROT.ALL AUTHORS
BUILT LOW RIDERS SO THE LOGS CAN GET WET.I PREFER TAMARACK AS IT
HOLDS UP WELL IN WET SITUATIONS.

>  And from further down the same page, discussing insulation-
> "The sawdust in the mortar probably helps a little but, to be
really
> sure of
> a warm wall, I recommend the fiberglass strip method of insulating
> described
> in the following pages. You can cut the fiberglass strips from a
batt of
> insulation with a skill knife."
>  The next five pages are illustrations of Rob`s methods, including
using
> fiberglass insulation strips around every layer laid up.
> I quote again-
> "Figures 80 through 90 are taken from my previous book, How to
build
> Log-end
> Homes, which deals with the subject of stovewood masonry in great
depth."
>


FREYSURF...........FIBERGLASS DOESN`T STOP AIR,LOSES ITS R-VALUE
WHEN WET AND IS BASICLY TOXIC.ITS ONLY AFTER I BROUGHT THIS UP DID
IT APPEAR EARTHWOOD WAS SAWDUST INSULATED.


>   Since I have reluctantly gotten myself embroiled in this
> controversy, both
> in Countryside and in online groups, I have done more research and
> thinking
> about cordwood. I have seen much dissention and very different
claims made
> in the online cordwood groups. I don`t claim to be an expert, and
I`m not
> trying to sell anything, but I have built with cordwood, read a
lot about
> it, seen other cordwood structures, and lived in mine for over 23
> years.  I
> used several "alternative" building methods when building my
> earthsheltered,
> direct gain, passive solar, post and beam, slipformed stone, and
cordwood
> home. I came to all of these methods as a novice, but fairly
handy, and
> willing to learn and work. I have been pleased with the results of
all I
> have done, except for cordwood. None of the other systems required
as much
> labor, tree killing, time spent waiting for the wood to dry, time
involved
> in construction, for as poorly performing a result as cordwood.
None
> of the
> other systems required me to go back over them to attempt to
remedy their
> shortcomings.
>   Consider the requirements for an energy efficient wall- it
should be
> airtight and insulation should be exterior to thermal mass.
Cordwood walls
> mix thermal mass with insulation in two ways- sawdust in the
mortar, and
> lengths of insulative wood going from exterior to interior, in a
matrix of
> mortar. This is counter to an energy efficient wall. Wall studs in
a well
> insulated framed wall are considered "Thermal bridges"- they
conduct heat
> through the wall better than the insulation does. Another way that
> cordwood
> reduces the energy efficiency of my home is by the required
thickness
> of the
> walls, I understand cordwood can be built as thin as 8", but it
would be
> much more difficult to accomplish, and have even less insulative
value. My
> 16" thick cordwood south facing wall blocks morning and afternoon
sunlight
> from striking my interior thermal mass walls and floor.
>   Consider what you have to go through just to be ready for the
labor
> intensive actual wall construction- Cut down many suitable trees,
limb
> them,
> debark, cut them to length, and split larger pieces. Stack them
off the
> ground and out of the weather, then wait for years, I waited 15
> months, and
> have been criticized for not waiting for three years! I`ve been
told by
> "experts" that I should of cut spring growth wood to make the bark
peeling
> easier,

FREYSURF..........THERE IS NO EXPERT IN LOG BUILDING THAT WOULD
SUGGEST SPRING CUT.

  other "experts" say winter cut is best. I cut in winter, and had a
> very hard time removing the bark. I had to build a shaving horse
and use a
> drawknife to debark.


FREYSURF........YOU CUT IN THE WINTER AND PEEL THE LOGS WHEN MAPLE
SYRUP WOULD START TO RUN.THE LOGS WILL PEEL EASILY.PLEASE READ MY
CORDWOOD NEWBEE PAGE.

Then after waiting for years, on a curb wall, you get
> to mix your choice of many "experts" formulas of sawdust mortar,
lay wood
> lengths in the two separate beds of mortar, fill in with
whatever "expert"
> you choose to believe says is best, then you get to go around the
many
> feet
> of cracks both around and in the blocks of wood with Perma-chink,
then you
> get to clean the faces off of excess mortar.  Compare this to
slipforming,
> where I can pick up a free stone, brush or rinse it off, and place
it
> in the
> form, pour concrete around it, remove forms, point, add exterior
> insulation
> and it`s done forever-I have a large thermal mass wall that is
water,
> fire,
> rodent, insect, and rot proof that will look just as good 50 years
> from now.
>
FREYSURF...........LOOK AT THE PICTURES IN MY ALBUM OF THE HOUSE ON
BEAVERBANK ROAD.ITS 30 YEARS OLD NO CRACKS WHAT SO EVER.WHAT EVER
EXPERT RECOMMEND THE SAWDUST INSULATION HASN`T CAUGHT ON THAT ITS
THE MAIN PROBLEM FOR AIR INFILTRATION IN A CORDWOOD WALL.
                   READ MY CORDWOOD NEWBEE PAGE AND LEARN SOMETHING
ABOUT THE SYSTEM BEFORE YOU CRITIQUE IT.[I`LL PROBABLY GET NAILED ON
MY STRAW BALE POSTS FOR THAT ONE NOW.]



                 CORDWOODGUY

PS:BY THE COMMENTS MADE BY FREYSURF...I`M SURE HE IS THE SAME GUY
WHO I INITIALLY REPLIED TO KNOWN AS DOUG.NEITHER ONE HAS A GRASP ON
CORDWOOD AND SHOULDN`T BE TAKEN SERIOUSLY.

MEGDLC ASKED ON UP DACREEK IF IT WAS OK TO USE REBAR INSTEAD
OF LAG BOLTS WITH HEADS CUT OFF.TO TIE INTO THE SILL PLATES IN A POST
AND BEAMER.WHATS THE POINT OF ANCHOR BOLTS TO PIN THEM DOWN SO
PERMANENTLY IF THE PIN IS ONLY THERE FOR LATERAL MOVEMENT.

MY REPLY......FLATNO SAID NO REASON WHY NOT!ROB CUTS THE HEAD OF LAG
BOLTS.ROWAN DID EXACTLY WHAT MEGDLC WAS ASKING ABOUT,USING PIECES OF
REBAR....THEY ARE ALL WRONG!

[1]SILL PLATES BY CODE ARE REQUIRED TO BE BOLTED DOWN.
(a)THIS IS TO PREVENT THE WALL FROM MOVING UNDER WIND SHEAR,FLOODING,
AND BEING RAMMED BY SOMETHING.ON UP DACREEK THEY ARE TALKING ABOUT
LATERAL MOVEMENT ONLY.WIND CAN LIFT A HOUSE OFF ITS FOUNDATION IF NOT
TIED DOWN...THUS THE REASON FOR BOLTS
[2]THE FACT THAT THE PLATE IS TO BE THREADED DOWN WOULD ELIMINATE THE
REBAR.BUT I`VE SEEN ANCHORS MADE WITH REBAR AND THE TOPS WERE THREADED.
[3]ANCHOR BOLTS ARE HOT DIPPED GALVANIZED TO PREVENT RUSTING.
[4]REAL ANCHORS ARE EMBEDDED IN THE CONCRETE AND THE ENDS ARE BENT TO
LOCK THEM IN.
(a)THERE ARE OTHER TYPES THAT ARE DRILLED AND TAPPED.SOME YOU BREAK A
VIAL AND IT HARDENS AND ARE SUPPOSED TO RATED STRONGER THAN THE BOLTS.
(b)I`VE USED REBAR AS ROCK ANCHORS...WE DRILLED HOLES INTO THE
ROCK,THEN SET REBAR INTO THE HOLES.WE THEN PLACED SOME SPECIAL GROUT
TO BOND IT IN.IN THIS CASE ITS NOT A PROBLEM AS THE REBAR WILL BE TIED
INTO A CONCRETE WALL.
[5]I DON`T SEE HOW LEG BOLTS WOULD WORK,ESPECIALLY WITH THE HEADS CUT
OFF.IS THIS REMENISANT OF THE BENT NAIL TIE JOKE FOR THE TOP PLATE?
[6]FLATNO MENTIONED THAT MOISTURE MIGHT GET INTO THE VOIDS IF REBAR
WAS USED IN DRILLED HOLES AND IT MIGHT FREEZE AND CRACK THE FOUNDATION.
THIS COULD BE AVOIDED IT THE REBAR WAS ZINC COATED AND SET IN THE WET
CONCRETE.
[7]I LOVE FLATNO COMMENT....."JUST OF COUPLE OF THOUGHTS AND I STAND
TO BE CORRECTED."   DON`T I ALWAYS CORRECT HIS POSTS..LOL!



                    CORDWOODGUY

PS:GERRY MADE SOME VERY GOOD POINTS IN HIS REPLY...KUDO`S.PLUS MEGDLC
WASN`T EASILY SWAYED AND HAS GREAT COMMON SENSE LOGIC....SOMETHING
MISSING ON THAT BOARD.

Hi CWG;

Can't argue with anything you say here...You are right, a pin by
itself can never serve as a fastener to tie down a sill plate.
However, the original posting was not talking about a plate, MEGDCL
just wanted to know about using pins to keep posts from moving
laterally on a slab.  Here is the original question:

  "is there a good reason why you can't just drill holes in the
concrete and tap little pieces of rebar into them to serve the same
purpose? What's the point of anchoring the pin down into the hole so
permanently if the pin is only there to protect against the lateral
movement of the post anyways?"

It is my understanding that anywhere that has a building code will
require that the posts in p & b structure somehow be anchored against
uplift forces.  And you are correct,a pin or dowel or piece of rebar,
no matter how tightly fixed into the slab will not meet that
requirement.  Some sort of mechanical connection to the slab or to a
sill plate is needed.

But, I have seen many decks built on stringers sitting on pins
embedded in concrete blocks without the mechanical connection and I
have even built a P & B woodshed building (16 x 24) in a similar
fashion, using spikes set into footer blocks under each pole as the
only connection.  These are not to code, for sure, but the woodshed
has been functioning for 12 years.  Would I use this system for a
dwelling or even any sort of building that would be occupied for long
periods like a shop, no, definetely not.

Anyway, I guess my point is that a properly affixed pin will indeed
restrain lateral movement, and I think that was the question.

thanks for listening, and I hope this doesn't sound too nit-picky!

Ed aka "Idaho"



--- In cordwood@yahoogroups.com, "cordwoodguy" <cordwoodguy@...>
wrote:
>
>          MEGDLC ASKED ON UP DACREEK IF IT WAS OK TO USE REBAR
INSTEAD
> OF LAG BOLTS WITH HEADS CUT OFF.TO TIE INTO THE SILL PLATES IN A
POST
> AND BEAMER.WHATS THE POINT OF ANCHOR BOLTS TO PIN THEM DOWN SO
> PERMANENTLY IF THE PIN IS ONLY THERE FOR LATERAL MOVEMENT.
>
> MY REPLY......FLATNO SAID NO REASON WHY NOT!ROB CUTS THE HEAD OF
LAG
> BOLTS.ROWAN DID EXACTLY WHAT MEGDLC WAS ASKING ABOUT,USING PIECES
OF
> REBAR....THEY ARE ALL WRONG!
>
> [1]SILL PLATES BY CODE ARE REQUIRED TO BE BOLTED DOWN.
> (a)THIS IS TO PREVENT THE WALL FROM MOVING UNDER WIND
SHEAR,FLOODING,
> AND BEING RAMMED BY SOMETHING.ON UP DACREEK THEY ARE TALKING ABOUT
> LATERAL MOVEMENT ONLY.WIND CAN LIFT A HOUSE OFF ITS FOUNDATION IF
NOT
> TIED DOWN...THUS THE REASON FOR BOLTS
> [2]THE FACT THAT THE PLATE IS TO BE THREADED DOWN WOULD ELIMINATE
THE
> REBAR.BUT I`VE SEEN ANCHORS MADE WITH REBAR AND THE TOPS WERE
THREADED.
> [3]ANCHOR BOLTS ARE HOT DIPPED GALVANIZED TO PREVENT RUSTING.
> [4]REAL ANCHORS ARE EMBEDDED IN THE CONCRETE AND THE ENDS ARE BENT
TO
> LOCK THEM IN.
> (a)THERE ARE OTHER TYPES THAT ARE DRILLED AND TAPPED.SOME YOU BREAK
A
> VIAL AND IT HARDENS AND ARE SUPPOSED TO RATED STRONGER THAN THE
BOLTS.
> (b)I`VE USED REBAR AS ROCK ANCHORS...WE DRILLED HOLES INTO THE
> ROCK,THEN SET REBAR INTO THE HOLES.WE THEN PLACED SOME SPECIAL
GROUT
> TO BOND IT IN.IN THIS CASE ITS NOT A PROBLEM AS THE REBAR WILL BE
TIED
> INTO A CONCRETE WALL.
> [5]I DON`T SEE HOW LEG BOLTS WOULD WORK,ESPECIALLY WITH THE HEADS
CUT
> OFF.IS THIS REMENISANT OF THE BENT NAIL TIE JOKE FOR THE TOP PLATE?
> [6]FLATNO MENTIONED THAT MOISTURE MIGHT GET INTO THE VOIDS IF REBAR
> WAS USED IN DRILLED HOLES AND IT MIGHT FREEZE AND CRACK THE
FOUNDATION.
> THIS COULD BE AVOIDED IT THE REBAR WAS ZINC COATED AND SET IN THE
WET
> CONCRETE.
> [7]I LOVE FLATNO COMMENT....."JUST OF COUPLE OF THOUGHTS AND I
STAND
> TO BE CORRECTED."   DON`T I ALWAYS CORRECT HIS POSTS..LOL!
>
>
>
>                    CORDWOODGUY
>
> PS:GERRY MADE SOME VERY GOOD POINTS IN HIS REPLY...KUDO`S.PLUS
MEGDLC
> WASN`T EASILY SWAYED AND HAS GREAT COMMON SENSE LOGIC....SOMETHING
> MISSING ON THAT BOARD.
>

--- In cordwood@yahoogroups.com, "EdFlorence" <edflorence@...> wrote:
>
> Hi CWG;
>
> Can't argue with anything you say here...You are right, a pin by
> itself can never serve as a fastener to tie down a sill plate.
> However, the original posting was not talking about a plate,
MEGDCL
> just wanted to know about using pins to keep posts from moving
> laterally on a slab.  Here is the original question:
>
>  "is there a good reason why you can't just drill holes in the
> concrete and tap little pieces of rebar into them to serve the
same
> purpose? What's the point of anchoring the pin down into the hole
so
> permanently if the pin is only there to protect against the
lateral
> movement of the post anyways?"
>
> It is my understanding that anywhere that has a building code will
> require that the posts in p & b structure somehow be anchored
against
> uplift forces.  And you are correct,a pin or dowel or piece of
rebar,
> no matter how tightly fixed into the slab will not meet that
> requirement.  Some sort of mechanical connection to the slab or to
a
> sill plate is needed.
>
> But, I have seen many decks built on stringers sitting on pins
> embedded in concrete blocks without the mechanical connection and
I
> have even built a P & B woodshed building (16 x 24) in a similar
> fashion, using spikes set into footer blocks under each pole as
the
> only connection.  These are not to code, for sure, but the
woodshed
> has been functioning for 12 years.  Would I use this system for a
> dwelling or even any sort of building that would be occupied for
long
> periods like a shop, no, definetely not.
>
> Anyway, I guess my point is that a properly affixed pin will
indeed
> restrain lateral movement, and I think that was the question.
>
> thanks for listening, and I hope this doesn't sound too nit-picky!
>
> Ed aka "Idaho"
>
IDAHO.................THANKS FOR THE CORRECTION,I THOUGHT THEY WERE
REFERING TO THE SILLS.MY APOLOGIES.BUT THERE ARE SOME PEOPLE WHO
BUILD POST AND BEAMERS WITHOUT ANY ANCHORING AT ALL.THE POSTS HAVE
BEEN MOVED FOR VARIOUS REASONS.PINNING THE POSTS WOULD HAVE BEEN
BETTER TNAN NOTHING.WHAT I WOULD DO IN THAT SITUATION IS THE
FOLLOWING.
[1]I`D DO THE ACHORS TO TIE DOWN THE SILL PLATE.
[2]THEN I`D DRILL A DOWEL HOLE THROUGH THE SILL AND SET A GALVANIZED
PIN INTO THE SLOT,STANDING ABOUT 5" HIGHER THAN THE SILL PLATE.
[3]THEN I`D DRILL A HOLE INTO THE BOTTOM OF THE POST TO FIT OVER THE
PIN.
[4]BEFORE ASSEMBLING I`D PLACE A PIECE OF ICE SHIELD/OLD ASPHALT
SHINGLE/ANY SORT OF VAPOUR BARRIER MATERIAL.
[5]THEN I`D USE SOME GALVANIZED ANGLE PIECES TO HOLD THE POST IN
PLACE.YOU COULD USE A COUPLE T TYPE FITTINGS THAT ATTACH TO THE SILL
AND THE POST TYING THEM TOGETHER.


                     IN CASE YOU AREN`T FAMILIAR WITH HOW THE AUTHORS
ATTACH TOP PLATES THAT I REFERED TO IN THE PREVIOUS POST.I`VE HAD
ENGINEERS LAUGHING OVER THIS IN DISBELIEF.THE ENGINEERING DEPARTMENT
OF U OF M IS THE SOURCE OF THE DESIGN.THEY POURED THE TOP OF THE
WALL AND TOOK A SILL PLATE AND BENT NAILS AND SET THAT INTO THE
CONCRETE.THE BENT NAIL HEADS IS WHATS SUPPOSED TO TIE THE TOP PLATE
AND THUS THE ROOF DOWN.
                     I USE LONG ACHOR BOLTS AND SET THEM INTO THE
WALL A COUPLE COURSES DOWN.THEY ARE THREADED THROUGH A LOG AND THEN
BECOME PART OF THE WALL.THEY IN TURN ARE THREADED THROUGH THE TOP
PLATE TO TIE THE PLATE TO THE WALL.THEN THE TRUSSES ARE TIED TO THE
PLATE WITH SIMPSON STRONG TIES/HURRICANE TIES.THE BENT NAILS WILL
RUST EASILY AND OVER A SHORT TIME WOULD BE RUST AWAY.THE NEXT HIGH
WIND AND BYE BYE ROOF.LOL!


                     CORDWOODGUY

we are currently cutting, debarking, and stacking wood for a cordwood
studio in southern new hampshire. we work tues, wed, thurs. if anybody
is interested in helping out we could use it! email us at
danghostshrimp@...

--- In cordwood@yahoogroups.com, "cordwoodguy" <cordwoodguy@...>
wrote:
>
> --- In cordwood@yahoogroups.com, "cordwoodguy" <cordwoodguy@>
> wrote:
> >
> > --- In cordwood@yahoogroups.com, "cordwoodguy" <cordwoodguy@>
> > wrote:
> > >
> > > CORDWOOD COURSES:
> > >
> > [1]SATURDAY APRIL 15TH...BERAE COLLEGE,KENTUCKY
> >    THE INSTRUCTOR WILL BE CLARKE SNELL
> >
> > [2]SANDMAN ....LAST WEEK IN JUNE+/-
> >      NORTH OF MONTREAL
> > CONTACT INFO:514-862-8674  / sandange@
> >
> > [3]JIM JUCZAK ..JULY 7TH-9TH
> >           JIM WILL BE HOLDING A SEMINAR ON ALTERNATIVE
> > BUILDING TECHNIQUES.HE MENTIONED STRAW BALE AND A CORDWOOD SAUNA.
> > CONTACT INFO: jjuczak@
> ]
>
> [4]NORTH HOUSE FOLK SCHOOL,MINNESOTA
> 5/20/06 CORDWOOD CONSTRUCTION PREPARATION.
> 9/9/06  CORDWOOD CONSTRUCTION,METHOD AND PRACTICE
> CONTACT INFO:info@...
> 1-888-387-9762
>
[5]SOUTHERN NEW HAMPSHIRE CORDWOOD STUDIO

CONTACT: danghostshrimp@...

--- In cordwood@yahoogroups.com, "danghostshrimp" <danghostshrimp@...>
wrote:
>
> we are currently cutting, debarking, and stacking wood for a cordwood
> studio in southern new hampshire. we work tues, wed, thurs. if
anybody
> is interested in helping out we could use it! email us at
> danghostshrimp@...
>


DHS............THANKS FOR POSTING YOUR PROJECT AND WELCOME TO THE
BOARD.


                    CORDWOODGUY
PS:CHECK MY PHOTO ALBUMS I HAVE PICS OF A LOT OF TOOLS GOOD FOR
PEELING THE LOGS.

Okay, another one of my off-the-wall ideas here. I was pondering the
drying/curing/aging involved in getting logwood ready for cordwood construction,
and the thought occurred to me:

   Would it be expedient to cut up pressure treated 4 x 4s and use them as one
would cordwood?

   I have a large number of these left over from a previous project, as well as
scraps.

   -Kev



*****

   "Wars are all follies, with little or no advantage gained even by those who
win temporarily.
   But useful ideas are deathless and permanent--they shape the true progress of
mankind."

   -Benjamin Franklin


---------------------------------
New Yahoo! Messenger with Voice. Call regular phones from your PC and save big.

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

--- In cordwood@yahoogroups.com, Kevin Tuma <kevintuma2003@...>
wrote:
>
> Okay, another one of my off-the-wall ideas here. I was pondering
the drying/curing/aging involved in getting logwood ready for
cordwood construction, and the thought occurred to me:
>
>   Would it be expedient to cut up pressure treated 4 x 4s and use
them as one would cordwood?
>
>   I have a large number of these left over from a previous
project, as well as scraps.
>
>   -Kev

WELCOME KEV...........FIRST OFF I WOULDN`T RECOMMEND USING PRESSURE
TREATED WOOD IN A HOME TYPE SETTING.THE PRESSURE TREATED WOODS ARE
ALL TOXIC.[CREOSOTE,PCB`S,CCA`S....CLIFF SHOCKEY`S HOME IS MADE WITH
PCB LADEN POWER POLES.JOHN WARDLEY USED COPPER SULPHATE TO TREAT HIS
LOGS, ANOTHER TOXIC.]
              SECONDLY,MILLED LUMBER WOULD STILL HAVE TO BE SEASONED
WEITHER ITS PRESSURE TREATED OR UNTREATED.EVEN IF IT WAS KILN DRIED.
ALSO MILLED AND SPLIT LOGS ABSORB MORE MOISTURE.BECAUSE THE ROUGH
SURFACE AREA TRAPS AND HOLDS MORE WATER.
              PLUS I DON`T RECOMMEND SPLIT OR MILLED LUMBER.THE
MILLED LUMBER WOULD EXPAND IN FOUR DIFFERENT DIRECTIONS AT THE SAME
TIME.SO ITS MORE LIKELY TO CRACK THE MORTAR.THIS IS SOMEWHAT TRUE
WITH SPLIT WOOD AS WELL.ROUND LOGS TENT TO EXPAND EVENLY AROUND THE
PERIMETER , RATHER THAN LOCALIZE THE STRESS ON CORNERS.PLUS THERE IS
A LEFT SPIRAL GRAIN LOG THAT WILL TURN LIKE A BARBER POLE.IN THE
ROUND ITS NOT A PROBLEM,BUT IN A SPLIT AND MILLED WOOD SENARIO IT
WILL TURN IN THE MORTAR AND MOST LIKELY CRACK IT.


                   CORDWOODGUY

THIS WAS BROUGHT UP ON UP DACREEK,BUT I`VE NEVER SEEN IT AS A
PROBLEM BEFORE.BUT IF YOU BUILT A ROUND CORDWOOD HOME THIS WOULD BE A
PROBLEM FOR MOUNTING ON THE EXTERIOR WALLS.[SANDMAN JUST MOUNTED HIS
ON THE FRAMED INTERIOR WALLS.]THATS WHY PEOPLE BUILD 8-16 SIDED
POLYGONS.THEN PLACE DOORS,WINDOWS,CUPBOARDS ON THE FLAT SECTIONS OF
THE WALL.
          BASICLY,I JUST PLACE SOME STRAPPING ON THE WALLS TO MAKE THEM
FLUSH.THEN ATTACH THE CUPBOARDS.IF I HAVE TO I CAN SHIM THEM EVEN.


                       CORDWOODGUY

REMEMBER MY CORDWOOD WALL R-VALUE POST OF AN R=96 IN A
CORDWOOD WALL.WELL NOW I CAN BUILD A CORDWOOD WALL WITH AN EVEN HIGHER
R-VALUE.HERE IT GOES.....I COULD BUILD A 24" CORDWOOD WALL WITH AN
R=519+. BUT WITH THIS INSULATION I`D JUST BUILD A 2"X 4" STUD WALL
WITH AN R-VALUE OF R=180.
          NOW THE BAD NEWS...THIS INSULATION IS MANUFACTURED FOR NASA.
SO ITS NOT AVAILABLE TO THE AVERAGE BUILDER.ITS CALLED POLYIMIDE FOAM
AND IT COMES IN 1" SHEETS RATED AT R=60 PER INCH.ITS NON-TOXIC,NON-
FLAMIBLE AND NO OUT GASSING.


                      CORDWOODGUY

PS: YOU HEARD IT FIRST HERE.

FROGGY ASKED ON UP DACREEK ABOUT TRYING TO HEAT A 10' X12'
SHED WITH PEK PIPING IN THE SLAB FROM A WOOD STOVE.

[1]CHANCES ARE THE WOOD STOVE MIGHT BE OVERKILL TO BEGIN WITH.
[2]HE WILL HAVE TO RUN A CIRCULATOR ,BUT I`D RUN IT THROUGH A HOT
WATER TANK TO DROP THE TEMPERATURE FROM BOILING WATER TO 100ºF+/-.
[3]A LOT OF PEOPLE PUT THE PEK ON TOP OF THE WIRE MESH,BUT WOULDN`T
THAT DEFEAT THE REASON FOR MESH IN A SLAB?YES,I KNOW IT WILL BE LIFTED
BY A CEMENT FINISHER.BUT THEN THEY WALK OVER IT.WHEN I DO DEMOLITION
WORK I SEE THE MESH ON THE BOTTOM OF THE SLAB.NOT DOING MUCH GOOD.
THATS ONE OF THE REASONS FIBER MESH WAS DEVELOPED.
[4]SANDMAN.....USED BUBBLE WRAP INSULATION UNDER HIS SLAB.A LOCAL
GOVERNMENT OFFICIAL TOLD ME ITS A NO NO.APPARENTLY,THEY ARE HAVING A
LOT OF PROBLEMS FROM THIS PRACTICE.[PERHAPS THE CEMENT FINISHERS ARE
BURSTING THE BUBBLES BY WALKING ON THEM AND PULLING AT IT WITH A PICK.
[5]FROGGY...INSULATE THE SIDES OF THE SLAB OR YOU WILL GET A THERMAL
NOSE BLEED.



                CORDWOODGUY

AFTERGLOW ON UP DACREEK MENTIONED A CONCERN THAT I`VE
BROUGHT UP ABOUT THE FROST PROTECTED SHALLOW FOUNDATION.HE WONDERED
IF HE MIGHT HAVE PROBLEMS WITH HIS FOUNDATION IF IT WAS UNHEATED FOR
1-3 YEARS.


MY REPLY ......YES!HE USED A DESIGN THATS SUPPOSED TO BE HEATED AS
PART OF THE DESIGN.THIS IS THE DOWNFALL OF THE SYSTEM.HE ALSO
SKIMPED ON THE REQUIRED INSULATION RECOMMENDED IN THE DESIGN.WHICH
IS ASKING FOR PROBLEMS.SO HE SAVED A FEW THOUSAND DOLLARS BY
BUILDING ABOVE THE FROST LINE.BUT A FEW THOUSAND MORE AND HE WOULD
HAVE BEEN ABLE TO SLEEP NIGHTS WITHOUT WORRYING ABOUT IT.
                HIS ABOVE QUOTE...DO YOU FEEL LICKY PUNK! MEANS TO ME
HE KNOWS HE IS TAKING A RISK.
************************************************
SOMEONE NAMED RICHARD MADE THE FOLLOWING POST......"EVERYTHING I`VE
READ WOULD SUGGEST YOU SHOULD BE OK."

MY REPLY........DAH!IN THE F.P.S.F. LITERATURE THEY SAY IT HAS TO BE
HEATED OTHERWISE YOU WOULD HAVE TO CHOOSE THE UNHEATED OPTION.WHICH
WAS A FOOTING BELOW FROST.PLUS THE GUY DIDN`T EVEN USE PROPER
INSULATION FOR THE DESIGN.HELLO!
                 RICHARD ALSO SAID .."ONLY IF WATER IS PRESENT WILL
YOU GET FROST HEAVING."

MY REPLY..........WELL IN 36 YEARS IN CONSTRUCTION I`VE NEVER FOUND
A SPOT THAT WAS FROST FREE IN A DIG.I`VE DUG UP ROADS THAT ARE
DESIGNED FOR DRAINAGE IN THE GRAVEL BASE...FROZEN.I`VE HAD TO BLAST
GRAVEL PILES IN WINTER TO USE IT.

SANDMAN............RECOMMENDED STRAW TO PROTECT HIS FROM FROST.


MY REPLY..........BUT OVER TIME IT WOULD BECOME USELESS.THE SNOW AND
ICE WOULD BIND WITHIN THE STRAW AND NEGATE ITS INSULATION VALUE.I
USE STRAW ON CONSTRUCTION SITES AND IN THE FOOTING SITUATION THEY
GET FLOODED AND THEN THE STRAW PLUGS THE PUMP.A VERY GOOD GRAVEL BED
UNDER IT MIGHT HELP.HIS BEST THING IS TO GET IT ROOF TIGHT AND SET
UP A HEATER AND KEEP THE HEAT ABOVE FREEZING.[ABOUT 40ºF]PERHAPS A
SOLAR HEATER.
                   FOR THE F.P.S.F....I`D TRY TO INCORPERATE A
PASSIVE SOLAR DESIGN INTO THE BUILDING DESIGN.THIS WAY THE SUN WOULD
WARM UP THE SLAB AND HELP IN A SITUATION WHERE THERE IS NO HEAT.BUT
I`M A BELIEVER IN BUILDING BELOW FROST LINE..NOTHING WORKS BETTER
THAN THAT.


                  CORDWOODGUY

THEY ARE TALKING ABOUT BLUEPRINTS ON UP DACREEK.THERE ARE
QUOTES OF UP TO $4,000 TO GET PLANS.


MY REPLY.......THE THING THEY FAILED TO MENTION ON UP DACREEK IS THAT
IF YOU BUY PLANS OUT OF STATE  /PROVINCE.THEY AREN`T WORTH SQUAT
UNLESS THE ARCHITECT IS LICENSED IN YOUR PROVINCE AS WELL.SO AFTER
SPENDING $4,000 GRAND YOU WOULD HAVE TO PAY A LOCAL ARCHITECT ANOTHER
COUPLE OF GRAND TO APPROVE THEM.DAH!
                 EVEN WORSE,IS GETTING PLANS DRAWN UP BY A DRAFTSMAN
WHO CAN`T SIGN HIS OWN PLANS.SO WHEN YOU GO TO THE MUNICIPAL OFFICE
THEY WILL INFORM THAT THE PLANS HAVE TO BE STAMPED......MAKING THEM
USELESS.


                           CORDWOODGUY

I`VE MENTIONED ABOUT SPIRAL GRAINED LOGS MANY TIMES.I JUST
POSTED A PICTURE IN THE ALBUMS TO SHOW YOU HOW EXTREME IT CAN GET.ITS
THE VERTICAL POST.I`VE DESCRIBED IT AS TURNING LIKE A BARBER POLE.
             THIS I MENTIONED IN THE CONTEXT,THAT IF YOU SPLIT YOUR LOGS
AND USED ONE OF THESE IN A WALL.THE WEDGE SHAPED SECTION WOULD MOST
LIKELY CRACK THE MORTAR.I DON`T THINK IT WOULD BE AS DAMAGING AS A
ROUND LOG.THE POST SHOWN,IF USED IN A CONVENTIONAL LOG BUILDING,THIS
WOULD BLOW OUT THE WALL.[THE FORCE IS THAT STRONG.]


                   CORDWOODGUY

i think rob roy sells earthwood plans for a few hundred...danshrimp


dan james
illustrator and all around nice guy
http://www.ghostshrimp.net

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