Well, we'd love to hear what you have to say.<br>Feel free to share your
ideas<br><br><br>-Raj<br>icq: 18471109<br>email: raj1037@...<br>aol im:
King1037

Interesting discussion points, ab. Are things
beautiful because we find them pleasing (in which case
beauty is in the eye of the beholder), or are things
pleasing because they are beautiful (in which case beauty
is a property of the object)? Do lower orders of
animals feel love, or is the attraction based soley on
survival instincts? For that matter, is ours?<br><br>Maybe
I was raised in a different religion than the
atheists posting in this group. I don't feel that I am
placed in emotional restraints as I practice my faith.
Even barring the existance of God, religion provides
society with a social order and rules of conduct. Is it a
bad thing to love my neighbor?<br><br>By the way, I'm
married to an atheist. We have these discussion quite
frequently. Hopefully one or the other of us will find a new
argument or two in this room.<br><br>VMI80

You know, it's interesting how people always say
religion allows unity and people are happier with it, that
somehow society follows the guidelines of their
religion.<br><br>However.. with most atheists there are very few racial,
cultural, or religious arguements. They also tend to live
happier lives. They're not trapped within the guidelines
of a religion. The fact is, they're also more
morally stable because they have these morals because
they want them, not because they're supposed to have
them.<br><br>With all religious people however there's religious
arguements, racism, stereotypes, fighting on the nature of
god, and even fighting over control of religious
cities.<br><br>The truth of the matter is.. society would be so much
better without religion.

This post disturbs me. It is one thing to debunk
religion with facts. It is another to debunk religion with
ridiculous fiction. I doubted many of those statements, but
I wanted to be sure. I had a discussion with my two
religious friends last night. Here is what I found
out:<br><br>-Citizens were never sent to drink Christ's blood.<br>-The
Bible does not give a date when Earth was
created.<br>-God did not create good and evil.<br><br>There are
many more answers, but they require further
explanation. I have a chat transcript available if anyone
wants to read it.<br><br>-Wolf

Well I just posted that because that's what I've
heard some people say.<br><br>Just last night someone
told me god created good and he then created evil to
balance things because there's no good without evil blah
blah blah.<br><br>I just put that up as some things
less sophisticated people will be able to relate to
and understand. Such as some 14/15 year olds I know..
no real knowledge yet, but those types of questions
is what starts it all.<br><br>anyway, cya all
around<br>I made Wolf2581 a founder btw, he probably knows
much more than I do on this club's subject.<br>-Raj

Just wanted to let everyone know I'm still
looking for at least 1 or 2 more founders.<br>email
Raj1037@... for more info<br><br>Also, try to get some more
people in here<br>maybe get us into the top 10 in this
category. (60-100 members or so)

> Feel free to share your ideas<br><br>well
what I've been doing for a while is to request free
booklets and such from religious groups, some will send
you tapes and other stuff. I find a lot of this stuff
on the web. If all anti-religious types did this, we
could cost them some money. My mailman may think I'm a
religious nut, since I get some much mail of this
sort.<br><br>Also, and this is not my idea, one could phone the 800
numbers of religous groups, if you do it from a payphone
it may cost them a quarter -- and if you phone after
houos you'll get the asnwering machine. If you do this
over and over, you could cost them some money. Answers
in Genesis, a crationsist group, has two 800 numbers
in fact.<br><br>Alan

The bible does not give a specific date, however,
biblical scholars have determined the date of the supposed
"creation" by using the ages of the various prophets and
such. I believe it was 4004 B.C.<br><br>If god created
everything, then it stands to reason that good and evil were
created by him as well. <br><br>"We must question the
story logic of having an all-knowing all-powerful God,
who creates faulty Humans, and then blames them for
his own mistakes." <br><br>-Gene Roddenberry

If there is no god, and you practice a religion,
you have hurt yourself. By accepting that religion's
philosophy as truth, you are hindering your ability to
succeed, because all religions advocate the sacrifice of
self. That is a harmful concept to practice.

Hello all! this is a story of somthing that
happened to me on the school bus, comming home a few weeks
ago...<br><br>I was sitting in my seat, talking to my friend,
Jermy in the other seat. We were having a debate on
religian. He was with Christians, and i was for athsism.
Jermy said somthing about me not beliving in god (which
is true) and this girl, who sits in the seat in
front of me, who is the nosiest person i have ever
meant, turns arond and asks "Who dosn't belive in god?"
i responded, proudly "i Don't!" she then asks me,
with this look, with confussion and hatrid "Do you go
to church?" i reaspnded "Oh yes, us athisist attend
church all the time." then understanding that she might
not get the joke i said "No." she then says "Thats
probly why you don't belive!" i then responded "I don't
belive because it's stupid!" She looks at me, and starts
the questions! "i hope you know your gonna burn in
hell!"<br>i responded "theres no such thing!" She then asked
"Well then how do you think we came along?" i answered
"i'm not sure, but not becasue of god making me!" she
then said "Well what do you belive!" i then said "i
think we came from energy. everything is a form of
energy. and enery dosn't start or end." she then yeled
"YOUR AN IDIOT!" i was infuriated! i yelled "YOUR DUMB
A__!" she then, yelled to the bus driver, "THIS IDIOT
DOSN'T BELIVE IN GOD!" this got me mad! i yelled! "THIS
IDIOT BELIVES IN A STUPID MYTH!" she then turnes, and
tells her friens, around her our conversation, like
they wern't listening in. i yelled "HERE I'LL SAVE YOU
SOME TIME! HEY EVERYBODY-" ibn the loudest voice i
could without screaming "I AM ATHIST, I DO NOT BEIVE IN
GOD!"she loks at me like i am a madman. the busdriver
looks up and yells "Whats going on back there!" the
girl yells "This boy thinks that that we all came from
energy!" then, to defend my self i yelled "Alow me to
clarify, this prejudis idiot thinks thats she better than
me becasue i am an athisist and she is an christion.
anything that is diffrent than her she hates!" to make a
long storie shorter, i was yelled at by the girl, and
made to sit back one seat, so we couldn't speak, upon
the girls request. <br><br> What my storie is trying
to prove, is most people don't like Athisist or anti
religenist. there not bad, opr stupid people. but they are
more ignorant and/or gullible then us.they kling to
there sarcasim and there disses to attack what is more
logical and what they don't understand. <br><br>Thanks
for reading<br>Doug Hatcher<br><br>Ps: if you want to
email me one of your stories or commant on mine, write
me at vlink22285@...

Here's a bit of a more mature version of the
story..<br><br>I was sitting in class once, and some people were
talking about religion.. one of them blurted out "I doubt
anyone at this school doesn't believe in god"<br>I said
" I don't, I'm an atheist."<br>and they asked a
couple of stupid questions like "What..? but you don't
go to those weird meetings or worship satan or
anything"<br>I calmly replied "I didn't say I was a satan
worshipper, I don't believe there is a satan or a
god."<br>"Well we believe in God, and so do most people, why
don't you?"<br>by this time the entire class was
listening<br>I just simply said "Well I have my reasons for not
believing..ask me personally sometime when we have more time. As
for you all believing.. I don't see why you believe
so blindly. Even if there is a god, you shouldn't
worship something you don't understand"<br><br>End of
conversation, never brought up again, I was easily accepted. I
even had people come up to me who were interested in
hearing more of what I had to say.<br>There's calm and
simple ways to keep from arguing with these
people.<br><br>By getting angry yourself you're letting yourself
drop to their level. They get angry because they're
idiots, they don't know how to argue back with you, and
their beliefs are being challenged.<br>By remaining
calm and secure with your beliefs you help prove
theirs wrong. <br><br>Next time you're confronted with
it try not getting so pissed off... and NEVER try to
explain your beliefs in a single sentence. Atheism isn't
something you can just explain in 2 seconds. Just like you
can't be taught a religion during a bus ride
home.<br><br>It takes time, simply say "I don't believe there is
a god, I have my reasons, and I can share them with
you sometime if you want me to. This isn't the time
or the place."<br><br>The one thing I like to say
most about atheists is that we're more mature. You
proved that wrong big time with that bus incident.. I'm
not saying you shouldn't be an atheist. Just don't
explode on people alright buddy?<br><br>-Raj

The Kansas state board of education has removed
evolution from the curriculum as everyone's probably heard
by now. I think this is very
disturbing.<br><br>Lemme know if anyone wants the personal email address's
of the board members.

I got this e-mail from some record company and it
sounded a little too soft to be punk so i rote to them
asking if they were christians and they said they were
and not too judge and that boolshite anyway i got
into a back and forth e-mailing match with this dude
and i said everything religion stands for has been or
will be proved by science and he replyed saying that
those were only just theories and that god created the
universe and all that crap and i skaed him why he belives
that and he said "the bible said so" now come on! this
is the guy who said that science hasnt proven or
will prove anything so ladies and gentleman i can tell
u that religion is a facade for the insecure to
hide their probs some ppl take it too far and look
what happens

Raj is right. You should never sink to their
level. Atheists have reason on their side, the theists
don't. Use it. It is to your own advantage, people tend
to take a calm, collected person more seriously than
a angry, irrational one. <br><br>Before you get
into an arguement with someone, ask yourself one
thing. "What do I hope to accomplish?" Attacking them
using purely emotional arguememts isn't going to make
them come around to your side. It will simply make
them strike back with reciprocal anger and hostility.

I think it's important to consider the risk that
theists are faced with when confronted with an Athiestic
philosophy: it's potentially the end of their world, their
life. I was raised Mormon, and when I finally realized
how ridiculous Christianity was, I was thrown into a
deep, deep depression. No longer could I look forward
to an afterlife lasting forever, spent with loved
ones basking in the glory of this pacifist
rocker-looking dude. Not only that, but I felt utterly betrayed-
lied to, raped, used -- by people I loved, and
trusted. Ignorance IS bliss. Knowledge can be devastating.
Try to empathize with their fears. It's their fear
that causes anger. They defend their belief in God
with such fervor because the alternative is bleak by
comparison. Raj is right about not reacting emotionally -
after all, as Athiests, we have to nothing to fear,
because there's nothing at risk. Why get angry? Anyway,
not believing in God doesn't negate a belief in love,
or humanity, or a sense of morality. Don't make me
quote Rodney King here...

Exactly, also... don't argue with an entire bus
full of kids. Chances are most of them will be at
least somewhat religious. You'll never win a war
(whether it be mental or physical) if you send one person
into a large group of the "enemy" with nothing more
than anger on his side.<br><br>The arguement I make
most against christians is that we don't need religion
to keep our society intact. That an atheist run
nation would actually be more peaceful because we choose
our morals instead of having them forced upon us.
<br><br>Him calling that girl names very much disproves my
point. Also, summing up one's beliefs in one sentence
and saying you believe in energy sounds kinda...
stupid.<br><br>A well made arguement with the basis of the law of
conservation of matter/mass would make more sense.. That's
what you seem to have been referring to. Matter can
neither be created nor destroyed, am I correct in
assuming that's what you were talking about?<br><br>Not
that it would have mattered in a bus full of kids. I'm
guessing that story is about a group of pre-teens or
hrmm... freshmen in high school at most. These people
aren't ready for such ideas yet. They simply know what
they've been taught by their parents. These kids haven't
even gone through the simple things in life most of us
take for granted. Such as finding out who you are,
that rebellion stage where you reject your parents
morals and traditions and create your own.<br><br>If
you're going to try to convert or help these people...
well you might as well go up to the Pope and argue
with him. You'll have just as tough a time with those
kids in the bus.<br><br>thanks for listening, I write
way too much<br>-Raj

KEmporer said something about not being able to
convert Christians with only anger. I was wondering: has
anybody been able to successfully show the truth to a
religious person? Christians e-mail me all the time and I
can't shake them. Somehow they are getting these
strange books and websites that tell them that evolution
can't happen, and all that anti-science type of
stuff.<br><br>Also, I really wanted to know what everybody thinks
about the origin of the universe. I think there was no
"origin", but rather an infinite loop of time as explained
in one of my rants at my web site (as I don't expect
anybody to read it, please don't expect me to write my
whole theory out here).<br><br>And another thing, I was
wondering how each person came to understand that religion
was a sham. For myself it began when I was a little
kid going to church. Everything seemed so fake and
all the stories were too silly. Also, the Sunday
school were too prudish. It wasn't until early this year
that I actually realized I was Atheist. The whole time
before that, I sorta believed in God. Now, I know the
truth.<br><br>~Sean "Mad Dog" Roney<br><a href=http://listen.to/roney
target=new>http://listen.to/roney</a>

Want to read something that'll make you glad you
ain't KKKristian? Well, I recieve the Falwell
Confidential (aka: KKKristian KKKoalition Bullshit in your
Mailbox) and thought I'd share with all of you the petty
stuff Christians believe...<br><br>~Sean "Mad Dog"
Roney<br><a href=http://listen.to/roney
target=new>http://listen.to/roney</a><br><br><br>DATE: November 5, 1999<br>FROM:
Jerry
Falwell<br><br>ENDING RELIGIOUS PERSECUTION: While the U.S. Senate
will<br>adjourn its <br>session next Wednesday, Nov. 10, Majority
Leader Trent Lott<br>has <br>notified committees that he
plans to bring the Religious<br>Liberty <br>Protection
Act up for a vote before then. You will
recall<br>that the <br>RLPA will protect religious practices
from governmental <br>interference. This is necessary
since the 1990 Employment<br>Division <br>v. Smith
decision, in which the Supreme Court ruled that<br>states
need <br>to show a mere "rational basis," the lowest
level of<br>constitutional <br>scrutiny, to justify
general laws that burden religious<br>practices.
<br>After Congress passed the Religious Freedom Restoration
Act<br>of 1993 <br>(which restored the strict scrutiny
standard) the High<br>Court <br>eliminated it in the 1997
case of City of Boerne v. Flores,<br>thereby
<br>reducing religious expression to a "second class" right.
<br>As a <br>result, local governments nationwide have
significantly<br>burdened <br>religious practices in churches, schools,
businesses, and<br>even in <br>prisons. Subsequently, many
ludicrous cases have arisen<br>with <br>religious
individuals as the targets. For example, a home<br>Bible
<br>study in Greenville, S.C., was banned, while
Tupperware<br>meetings and <br>football parties may continue. In
Philadelphia, Christian<br>day care <br>centers were threatened
with closure if they did not alter<br>their
<br>policies, which prohibit the hiring of non-Christians and
<br>homosexuals. In Rolling Hills, Calif., the city adopted
an<br><br>ordinance prohibiting churches in areas zoned
"commercial."<br> <br>Churches are now permitted only in an
"institutional" zone<br>where <br>there is no available property.
At the same time, however,<br>massage <br>parlors
are permitted in commercial zones. And in
a<br>Florida <br>correctional facility, a prison official
banned communion<br>for <br>prisoners in his facility.
The RLPA will protect churches,<br><br>religious
organizations and individuals from facing<br>unnecessary
<br>burdens that states or local governments place on them.
By<br><br>reinstating the "compelling state interest" test, the
RLPA<br>restores <br>our First Amendment right to religious
exercise to the<br>highest <br>degree of legal protection
for all Americans. The RLPA<br>will force
<br>governments to distinguish a compelling interest
before<br>intruding on <br>the lives of religious Americans. I am
encouraging all my<br>Falwell <br>Confidential friends to
urge their senators to support this<br><br>important
legislation. Please call the Capitol
Switchboard<br>(202-<br>224-3121) and request your senators' offices.
When<br>connected, <br>please respectfully urge them to defend our
nation's<br>history of <br>religious liberty by supporting the
Religious Liberty<br>Protection Act <br>- with no
exemptions.

PRAYING FOR JUSTICE: The House has passed a
resolution (H.<br>Con. Res. <br>199) calling on the Supreme
Court to approve voluntary<br>prayer at <br>high school
sporting events. This resolution coincides<br>with an
<br>appeal by Texas high school students requesting High
Court <br>consideration of their right to pray at
school football<br>games. This <br>action follows a
federal appeals court decision that bans<br>such
<br>prayers. Sponsored by Texas Republican Reps. Henry
Bonilla<br>and <br>Charles Stenholm, the resolution contends
that school<br>prayers are <br>not only constitutional
but "prayers and invocations at<br>public <br>school
sporting events contribute to the moral foundation<br>of
our <br>nation ...." Let us pray that the Supreme
Court will take<br>this case <br>and ultimately return
the rights of the faithful in our<br>nation's
<br>classrooms.<br><br>PRAYING FOR A BROTHER: Recent reports indicate that
Tom<br>Landry, <br>legendary coach of the Dallas Cowboys, is not
responding to<br><br>chemotherapy treatments for chronic
myelogenous leukemia -<br>a rare <br>form of cancer. Landry
told the Dallas Morning News in<br>June, "I <br>don't
know if we could have gotten through this
without<br>(faith). <br>Faith is my strongest ally." I hope all of
you will<br>remember Coach <br>Landry in your
prayers. He has always been a courageous<br>spokesman
<br>for Christ and I am praying that the Lord will
restore his<br>health <br>and ministry.<br><br>THE FAITH
OF OUR CHILDREN: Dr. D. James Kennedy's
Center<br>for <br>Reclaiming America announced the release of,
"Yes, I<br>Believe in <br>God," the theme song for the
"Yes, I Believe in God"<br>campaign. The <br>song,
which honors slain Columbine High School
student<br>Cassie <br>Bernall, was recorded by Christian artist
Rebecca St.<br>James, <br>national spokesperson for the
campaign. I pray that this<br>campaign <br>will motivate
untold numbers of students to stand firm in<br>their
<br>faith at school. In a similar regard, my ministry is
now<br>dispensing <br>large numbers of Ten Commandment book covers
to students<br>from across <br>the nation. These
colorful and contemporary book covers<br>can be
<br>ordered at my website (www.falwell.com), for a
small<br>donation to <br>offset our printing costs. I love hearing
from Christian<br>students <br>who are proudly
exhibiting the Ten Commandments in their<br>public
<br>schools. These covers are a great way for kids to
share<br>their <br>faith, while also embracing their
constitutional right to<br>freely <br>express their
Christianity. Get some for your kids today!

A few words..<br><br>If we ever get a lot of
members to this club (1,000+).. which I think might
happen considering we have nearly 30 in our first week.
<br><br>Then I'm thinking we can hold large atheist
gatherings. <br>What would we do? I dunno, play playstation
games and watch tv for all I care, the point is that
we'd advertise it. It would annoy and anger christians
a lot. <br><br>Or maybe do something weird like
dress up like jehovah's witness's and go door to door
handing out atheist newsletters.<br><br>Yeah, I know it's
immature, and pointless.. but I think it would serve some
purpose in identifying how many atheists there are out
there and let the public know that we aren't a
minority.<br><br>Christians aren't too hard to convert. It's very easy
actually. Break them from their religion the same way they
joined it. Get 3-4 people who are atheists and go talk
to one single christian at a time... they break very
easily from peer pressure. Then they can more easily
learn why we believe what we do and are more likely to
understand it.. because they don't reject it.<br><br>The
hardest to try to argue with are Sikhs, Hindus, and
Muslims.. ohhh god these people are stupid. Not only is
their culture primitive, they believe without a doubt
and can't be talked to. They find it amazing and
curse you when you say you don't believe in god. The
only people of these religions I've gotten any
progress with is teens.<br><br>-Raj

Why would you want to wave a red cape at a
charging bull? If you piss Christians off, their faith
will be stronger than ever. The most effective way to
convince a Christian that it's all bs is to set a good
example. This might sound insane, but I believe most
Athiests are [literally] better Christians than most
Christians I know! Christ, fictional or non, was a bitchen
dude. He was forgiving, non-judgemental, non-racist,
loving, honest, smart, logical, humane, charitable,
non-materialistic - everything most Christians AREN'T. He was the
first left-winger. <br><br>Christians need to be
educated. The whole
removing-evolution-from-textbooks-crisis is a resurgence of the Victorian era
with all the
trappings of Nazi Germany. Next it'll be Farenheit 451 and
1984. We need more Athiests in PUBLIC OFFICE! You guys
are young - c'mon! What are you waiting for?

You have some good points even though they may
seem strange at first. If some of these were done and
done right the could and would work. I have had the
same idea that the only way you could make someone a
noncCristians is to use the same methods they use to convert
people to be Cristians in the first place.<br> ~Darius~

I actually have a good story about convincing
people of the truth. I have a friend, who used to be a
Protestant(im not sure of the exact denomination). Anyway, he
wasn't too religious in the first place. When he found
out I was an atheist, we got into a discussion about
religion. I pointed out some of the horrible and
hypocritical things in the bible, it made him think. To make a
long story short, he is now an agnostic.

I agree with you about angering christians and
how it only fuels their beliefs... However,
christians will never see how we behave because they never
realize who is an atheist and how many atheists there
are. <br><br>Why do you think that Christians are
looked up to the community? First they let themselves be
known, then they set a good example. <br><br>We atheists
are not known. Most Christians believe that 1 out of
a million people might be "without god". They don't
realize that nearly 15% of the world is atheist. That
makes it the 3rd or 4th largest belief system (aka
religion) in the world.<br><br>We first need to make
ourselves known as atheists. Then we can set good examples.
We might piss off a few christians when doing this..
but I think it's worth it.<br><br>Everyone who knows
me knows I'm an atheist. Some people hate me because
of it.. however most do not. They realize I'm a good
person, and that's how I set a good example.

I understand your point. But, and you must know
this from your personal experience, many christians (I
de-capitalized) will not listen to you once they know you are an
athiest. Your example, no matter how altruistic, will be
lost on them. My own family is a perfect example. I've
been agnostic/atheist for about 15 years, and have all
but hung on the cross to prove my goodness to them,
but they are blind to it. My efforts are wasted. But,
they see celebrities on Entertainment Tonight who
participate in the Special Olympics or Toys for Tots, who
then go out that night and break nine out of ten
commandments, and my family thinks they're saints. It's a
compromising point. Sure, we want the world to know we exist,
and why we exist, and hopefully eliminate the
right-wing christian militia freaks and undermine all of
their prejudices and hate. But they have history on
their side, and most of them aren't too bright. It's
the intelligent christians that will be persuaded.
I'm not trying to disagree with you, I'm just very,
very frustrated.

I thought I'd jump into this as my first
contribution to this club. I don't spend any effort tryin to
"convert" christians to my way of thinking. In fact, this
is one of THEIR charactaristics that annoy me the
most. However, I am not shy when it comes to defending
my beliefs agains their ignorant statements. As an
example, recently a woman wrote to our local paper,
stating that the Ten Commandments were nothing but
common-sense rules that should be placed in all of our
schools. After all, she says, they are only common sense.
Well, of course I got pissed! So I also wrote to the
editors of the paper and expressed my position. I used
their weapon against them! I listed the Ten
Commandments one by one, and explained why most of these were
not common-sense rules (of course, killing and
stealing are wrong; I'd agree that this is a common sense
idea). Now I am receiving hate mail and phone calls, but
I think I got the town thinking. I'm convinced that
most christians haven't even read their own bible.
When presented with the absurdities an contradictions
it contains they get very confused. They believe the
bible is the word of god, god is perfect, thus the
bible should contain no errors. --well, it does, and
lots of them!

I hope you realize that not all people think altruism is a good thing, myself
included.

I didn't mean to imply that everyone desired to
be altruistic. I respect objectivism as a theory. I
guess my point is that you have to deal with christians
on their level. Is the desired outcome to defend
atheism, or convert christians into atheists? After all,
if it weren't for those pesky christians, we
wouldn't be engaged in this discussion group.

I agree that the goal is to convert christians
into atheists. However, I disagree that we should deal
with them on their level. You can't change someone's
mind by attacking them and calling them evil. The only
way to convert them is to rationally convince them of
their error.

well i read all of your statements and i figured
that i would post my POV. i think people use religion
as a source of therapy. god listens when nobody else
will and other non-sense. at one time i took the
platform of KILL ALL RELIGIONS, etc. and i found it to be
utterly pointless. if someone wants to believe their way
let them. if you are strong-minded it won't affect
you. <br>another thing that bothers me is that
everyone attacks christians. christianity isn't the only
religion in the world. other religions' belief system is
as absurb as the christians'. why doesn't anyone
attack wicca or buddism?