All,
            there was a meeting today to review a DTO draft document " Review of
cycle strategy / facilities 4 year plan 2003-2006". This is a  important meeting
as it will set strategy for the next 4 years in with the 4 local Authourity
areas.
Damien on behalf on the DCC has made no fewer than 3 previous submissions to the
forum over the past 16 months, but few of our views seemed to have made it into
the final document.
Anyway with between Dermot, Damien and myself we made a final submission on
proposed changes to the document. Damien and Eamon Ryan attended the meeting
today on behalf of the DCC.
Regards,
David.




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All
I usually observe with interest this list but there times when comment is
required.

Shane

I was at the meeting too
Though from your description I would not recognise it
If you had a major problem with either the process or what was agreed I did
not hear you express it at the time

The 'visioning thing' that you comment on was suggested but did not happen

What did happen was that 26-28 people who were interested enough to give up
a Saturday turned up and had their say
They agreed having had a general discussion & small group discussion what
the priorities were and what people were prepared to work on
There was a democratic process in which every single person present picked
their priority item
The top three are to be acted on
There was no dissent or rows

There was agreement that the new entity was loose co-ordinating body which
would work on the items agreed

There was no mention that I can recall of HGV's by anyone
That was an omission which all of us present share whatever blame or
responsibility is appropriate

As one on the seven people who actually committed to doing something
(lobbying to have the mandatory use of cycle lanes ended)
I have sent details of the work done to date on the issue to your colleague
in the GCC on 11 Feb without reply to date
I note you also committed to acting on roundabout design

This is not a perfect world. The ICC is not perfect either. It was agreed
that the functioning would be ad-hoc
If we wait for perfection we will wait forever. I suggest that we face the
world we live in and make that best of it

Chris O Neill


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hi,

i haven't been active in the DCC for a long time for a few reasons. so
ignore this if you like. however, i would like to support shane foran and
cyclopath's opinions on approaches to campaigning and activism.

we can see in the current Iraq invasion debate that both the national media
and the government have not pursued intelligent rational debate about the
real issues. the primary way the anti-war movement has grown is outside the
bounds of mainstream media/government entities.

it's not hard to explain why and how the media and government do this: read
'understanding power' by noam chomsky.

i think our approach to cycling campaign issues should take these issues
into account. it should recognise as a fundamental fact that the national
media serves its own interests and we should be wary of depending on, or
even trusting, it. it should recognise that the government has many agendas
that counteract directly the aims of cycling campaigns, and has no need to
really listen to the will of the populace.

with this in mind, a cycling campaign should at all times be highly wary of
any institution (governmental or other) or institutional process that
distracts us from our real aims.

all the best,
john clifford





>> Shane Foran Galway Cycling Campaign proposals Portarlington 8/2/03
>
> Shane, I think your 'revolutionary' thinking is much more progressive
> than any policy of collaboration with the current regime.
>
> In addition, I think that the need for change in government and local
> authorities needs to be recognised and tackled.
>
> Money has been wasted, schemes have not been constructed to
> specification, facities are allowed to decay, targets are being fudged
> and  false statistics are being given.
>
> Without organisational change, nothing will ever be permanently
> accomplished.
>
> C.

I too,support the ideas proposed by Shane Foran and his supporters,there
clearly
is an agenda pursued by these government/organisations and the needs of the
general public especially the cyclists is not being served at all.

The DCC seems to be tip toeing around some of these bodies and
i would think more radical campaigning and activism is needed,
their present approach would not be endorsed by me.

I'm a student who is very shortly to be an engineer (hopefully in 2 months!)
and well,i can see myself going into the transport engineering
sector in Ireland but i feel dissillusioned by the vast amount of schemes at
present like the 'construction of a strategic cycling network' that are clearly
wasting millions of euros to absolutely no avail.

Change is needed and i for one would like to think i can make a difference.
If and when i do enter one of these institutions hopefully i can begin some
more
slow changes that do improve the transport infrastructure for all.
That day will be a good day.

Some more ideas from Rory-future radical 'environmental transport engineer'.
Cheers..

At 15:25 21/02/2003 +0000, john clifford wrote:
>hi,
>
>i haven't been active in the DCC for a long time for a few reasons. so
>ignore this if you like. however, i would like to support shane foran and
>cyclopath's opinions on approaches to campaigning and activism.

The DTO has no map of the 'cycle network' under its strategic maps on
the main page but I found a map by doing a site search under 'cycle'.

It's quite fantastic (published, I think, 5 years ago) and includes,
Raheny-Fairview, the whole length of Amiens Street and also the Quays
in both directions. Anyone know when these will be constructed? What
percentage of the network shown on the map actually exists?

A copy can be found on
http://www.geocities.com/cyclopath2001/index.htm.

CycloPath2001.

Just forwarding - someone may be interested.

  bikingchinatour <lizidan@...> wrote:Dear Sirs,
I am a biking trip organizer in China for western tourists with more than
10-year experiences.
Organizing biking trip to China might be helpful to expand your business.
And this market dose increase rapidly.
For more detailed information, please view our web page:
www.bikingchinatour.com or send me an e-mail. You will get our prompt reply.
Thank you for reading this e-mail.
Yours sincerely,
Li zidan






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Hi,

         following the successful introduction of the congestion tolling scheme
in central London, I got an email from a DCC member suggesting that I send a
press release supporting the idea for Dublin, as the AA (surprise surprise !)
had already said it would never work in Dublin.

Anyway, between lack of time and knowing it would never get picked up, I didn't
bother, but I did email Garret Fitzgerald and asked would he possibly write an
article on why this scheme would be pratical in Dublin (he wrote a similar piece
some time ago).

Anyway to cut to the chase, I bought the Times yesterday and he did indeed write
an article on this very subject.

David.




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Question From CycloPath2001:What percentage of the network shown on the map
actually exists?
Answer::?

I reckon zero percent of this actual 'cycle network' exists
because for something to exist it should conform to a certain set of
rules and standards so in theory there are no actual cycle lanes in Ireland,
that is if one is to go by a certain definition of what a cycle lane SHOULD be.

Rory

In relation to some recent emails commenting on the policy and approach taken by
the DCC, I just want to clarify some matters.

All policy is decided democratically at our monthly meetings and major issues at
our AGM. Any member of the DCC who wishes to suggest policy change, focus on a
new area or volunteer to take over some function within the DCC is not alone
welcome but is positively encouraged to come along to the meetings.

The mailing list is a useful tool by which to gather information, express views,
seek help and get feedback. It is a tribute to the open nature of the DCC that
access to the list is given to those who are not members of the DCC.

For me personally the best thing about being involved in the DCC for the last 3
years is the people with whom I regurlarly collaborate on various issues. The
various members who with no great fuss, write our quaterly newsletter, balance
our books, moderate our mailing list, etc. People like Damien who worked still
11pm at night preparing our submission for the DTO forum meeting and then fought
our corner the next day at a gruelling 5 hour meeting to ensure that issues like
the ending of the mandatory use of cycle lanes make it to the final text. All
important stuff, but I can assure you totally thankless.

Genuninely, I never in either my personal or professional life have I dealt with
a group of people who so consistently respond to requests promptly and
effeciently. This is  all based on a general mutual respect within the DCC
between its most active members and wish not to waste our time on embittering
in-fighting but focus on implementing our agreed strategy.

I really do believe that the DCC for a voluntary organisation has achieved an
enormous amount over the past few years, and it down mainly to quality of both
our aims and our members.

  Criticism is part of life, but I would ask that before suggesting what the
campaign or other people should do (or not do), participants on the list should
consider what exactly they themselves are willing to volunteer in terms of
concrete suggestions and whether they are willing to give their own personal
time to implement their suggestions.

Anyway that's my 2 cents worth.




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I happened to catch our beloved Mr. Faughnan on the radio over the weekend
talking about the reasons why such a toll scheme wouldn't work in  Dublin. He
was talking for a few minutes and mentioned the need for a much greater public
transport system, better infrastructure and why
people wil always choose cars over public transport because there isn't any
alternative. Right at the very end of his rant he did mention the word "cycling"
so we must give him credit for at least mentioning the forbidden word.

I was also watching a BBC documentary last night about cars and the development
of the British road network and one person said that the fact that 3 weeks after
the M25 was completed it was at a standstill with the volume of traffic was
evidence that more roads was not the solution.

Paddy

david maher wrote:

> Hi,
>
>         following the successful introduction of the congestion tolling scheme
in central London, I got an email from a DCC member suggesting that I send a
press release supporting the idea for Dublin, as the AA (surprise surprise !)
had already said it would never work in Dublin.
>
> Anyway, between lack of time and knowing it would never get picked up, I
didn't bother, but I did email Garret Fitzgerald and asked would he possibly
write an article on why this scheme would be pratical in Dublin (he wrote a
similar piece some time ago).
>
> Anyway to cut to the chase, I bought the Times yesterday and he did indeed
write an article on this very subject.
>
> David.
>
> ---------------------------------
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>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
> To Unsubscribe, send a message to:
>
> Dublin-Cycling-Unsubscribe@Egroups.com
>
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>
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I see somebody in the DTO has a sense of humour (or at least thinks they
have). This is really the stuff that science fiction films are made of.

I know of only two acceptable cycle paths in Dublin

1. From "The Goat" to Clonskeagh village.
2. From west of Sutton Cross - westward for about a mile.

OK - I'll stop ranting now.

Paddy.

"cyclopath2001 " wrote:

> The DTO has no map of the 'cycle network' under its strategic maps on
> the main page but I found a map by doing a site search under 'cycle'.
>
> It's quite fantastic (published, I think, 5 years ago) and includes,
> Raheny-Fairview, the whole length of Amiens Street and also the Quays
> in both directions. Anyone know when these will be constructed? What
> percentage of the network shown on the map actually exists?
>
> A copy can be found on
> http://www.geocities.com/cyclopath2001/index.htm.
>
> CycloPath2001.
>
> To Unsubscribe, send a message to:
>
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>
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>
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Hi

Chris O’Neil has taken issue with several points I
raised with regards to what happened at the
Portarlington meeting.  Before I address these I must
acknowledge that it was largely due to Chris that
anything got clearly agreed on the day.

> If you had a major problem with either the process
> or what was agreed I did
> not hear you express it at the time
>

Chris may not have heard us, but both myself and
Miriam both objected to this procedure when it was
suggested, on the grounds that it would be a waste of
time


> What did happen was that 26-28 people who were
> interested enough to give up
> a Saturday turned up and had their say
<snip>
> There was a democratic process in which every single
> person present picked their priority item
>

I would ask to what end?  For what purpose?
Consultation and inclusiveness are not ends in
themselves, they are merely stages in a process aimed
at identifying the right issues and best solutions.

In this case, the issues have been painstakingly
analysed and identified for many years by generations
of cycling activists.  Galway came with a prepared
position paper, Cork also has established positions on
various matters.  So was this process of individual
consultation likely to throw up some surprising new
issue that would be a priority for a national cycle
campaign?  My answer would be no.  Did this process
actually throw up surprising new issues that were
identified as a priority for the new group?  No it did
not.

>
> As one on the seven people who actually committed to
> doing something
> (lobbying to have the mandatory use of cycle lanes
> ended)
> I have sent details of the work done to date on the


This is precisely the point, a significant number, in
fact by my calculation a majority, of those present
were prepared to consume time raising various issues
that they were not prepared to work on.  Instead,
those of us who were there to work, were put in the
position of having to compete with those who were not
there to work, in order to get what are standard,
basic, "bread and butter" cycling promotion issues
onto the agenda.  This is not a question of
"perfection" or "rocket science" but of basic long
established principles that any group of educated
cycling activists should have been able to agree on.


I am aware that I share responsibility for the
situation.  Prior to the meeting I specifically
flagged my concern that bringing in non-cycle
campaigners/ non-activists would distract from the
work that needed to be done.  So clearly if I was that
concerned I should have been more robust on the day.
However, we were also conscious of being present in
the “enemy camp” as it were and nobody was too sure
what was going to happen.  Be that as it may I am
raising these issues now, the longer we go on without
a clear, integrated, global vision the worse it will
be.

Shane



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No, it's not another of my occassional rants,

Rather this is the title of a document produced by the
  BGreater Manchester Cycle Campaign  in the 'Reports
and Publications' section of their website
http://www.gmcc.org.uk/

The document assesses  the 'progress' on their city's
Official Cycling strategy.
I think it is a highly useful exercise to 'benchmark'
systems intending to achieve similar objectives across
cities/organisations etc. In the case of cycling this
can compare and contrast cities of similar size, car
ownership percents, and official policies to explore
ways of doing things better.
I chose Manchester because it has some similarities to
Dublin, including a Luas type tram system. Obviously
there are also many differences.
Reading the document above I was struck by the uncanny
similarity of the Manchester experience to Dublin.
Many sections of the report could be cut-and-pasted
into a similar analysis of the Dublin experience.
It is at once both reassuring and disturbing that so
many of the arguements re tokenism, poor maintenance
of off-road facilities, parking at train stations etc
are replicated in Manchester. Indeed at times I felt I
had slipped into a parrellel universe with the names
changed.
Given that the problems are common and are recognised
in the analysis I believe there will be progress, even
if it is at an acedemic level initially, in managing
and promotoing sustainable transport. The problem is
it may not happen for at least ten to fifteen years at
the current rate of progress.
My message of hope then is that whereas Communism may
no longer be inevitable, cycle friendly transport
most definitely is.
The only question is whether we will see it in our
lifetimes.
D

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--- In dublin-cycling@yahoogroups.com, mckevitr <mckevitr@t...> wrote:
> because for something to exist it should conform to a certain set of
> rules and standards so in theory there are no actual cycle lanes in
Ireland,
> that is if one is to go by a certain definition of what a cycle
lane SHOULD be.

There are rules, contained in the Road Traffic Acts and some
Statutory Instruments. Many of the so-called 'routes' do not conform
to these. There were standards but these were ignored & are no longer
published (very Orwellian).

But, many of the routes on the map DO NOT EXIST.

My constructive suggestion is that the DTO and the City Council be
subjected to an audit and recommendations made as to how they could
properly conduct their business.

C.

--- In dublin-cycling@yahoogroups.com, David Brady <dermurray@y...>
wrote:
> No, it's not another of my occassional rants,
>
> Rather this is the title of a document produced by the
>  BGreater Manchester Cycle Campaign  in the 'Reports
> and Publications' section of their website
> http://www.gmcc.org.uk/
>
> The document assesses  the 'progress' on their city's
> Official Cycling strategy.
> I think it is a highly useful exercise to 'benchmark'
> systems intending to achieve similar objectives across
> cities/organisations etc. In the case of cycling this
> can compare and contrast cities of similar size, car
> ownership percents, and official policies to explore
> ways of doing things better.
> I chose Manchester because it has some similarities to
> Dublin, including a Luas type tram system. Obviously
> there are also many differences.
> Reading the document above I was struck by the uncanny
> similarity of the Manchester experience to Dublin.
> Many sections of the report could be cut-and-pasted
> into a similar analysis of the Dublin experience.
> It is at once both reassuring and disturbing that so
> many of the arguements re tokenism, poor maintenance
> of off-road facilities, parking at train stations etc
> are replicated in Manchester. Indeed at times I felt I
> had slipped into a parrellel universe with the names
> changed.
> Given that the problems are common and are recognised
> in the analysis I believe there will be progress, even
> if it is at an acedemic level initially, in managing
> and promotoing sustainable transport. The problem is
> it may not happen for at least ten to fifteen years at
> the current rate of progress.
> My message of hope then is that whereas Communism may
> no longer be inevitable, cycle friendly transport
> most definitely is.
> The only question is whether we will see it in our
> lifetimes.
> D
>
> __________________________________________________
> Do You Yahoo!?
> Everything you'll ever need on one web page
> from News and Sport to Email and Music Charts
> http://uk.my.yahoo.com

All,
I attach, with David Maher's endorsement, a paste of
the Dublin Cycling Campaign's submission sent to the
DTO Cycling Forum, 20/2/03.
A number of drafts have previously been receieved and
comment returned to the DTO. The document below
between '**' gives a flavour of the issues.
Well worth a read.

I can paste on the draft document it was referring to
individually if required. (pasting of large
attachemnts is not possible on the message board.)



  --- david maher <maherd70@...> wrote: >
> Michael and Helena,
>
>                please find attached the submission
> from the Dublin Cycling Campaign. I hope that the
> forum is successful.
>
> I really must express my frustration that our
> various submissions  to the forum have been ignored.
> Numberous submissions that we sent relating to
> 20mph, non mandatory use of cycle lanes, specific
> garda tickets for parking on cycle lanes are not
> mentioned in your proposed text. The focus on
> segragated cycle lanes is very worrying as these
> have proved a disaster in the past, and when we draw
> your attention and that of the Local Authourities to
> extremely dangerous designs such as Dundrum -
> absolutely nothing happens -people just sit back and
> wait for cyclists to be killed at these insane
> designs.
>
> If the forum is to be a success - it is vital that
> you take   on board the views of the DCC - who at
> the end of the day are your customers and the ones
> who will decide on the success of your plans, both
> in terms of cycling numbers but also in terms of
> accident and death statistics.
>
> I hope you know from experience that I (on behalf of
> the DCC) do not usually put my views in such blunt
> terms, but I am extremely concerned by the way our
> past submissions have not been incorporated in to
> the document.
>
> So please take our submission on these forum
> seriously.
>
> Regards,
>
> David.

********************************************************************************\
******************************
Dublin Cycling Campaign
12 Millmount Grove, Windy Arbour, Dublin 14.
A Member of the European Cycling Federation

Net. www.connect.ie/dcc   Email dcc@...
Voicemail 087 6261627


19-Feb-03

A Submisison from the Dublin Cycling Campaign on the
DTO Cycle Forum Report Version February 2003

Dear Helena and Michael,

We contacted our members and our response to the Cycle
Forum Document follows.


ONE:  Segregated Facilities (- See also 5.2 below)
We do not like the emphasis on segregated cycle
facilities.  This type of facility is a disaster for
the following reasons;
(1) Inexperienced cyclists do not learn how to cope
with traffic.
(2) Vehicular drivers begin to expect cyclists to be
off the road everywhere, and no longer tolerate
cyclists even where no cycle facilities are provided.
Vehicular speeds and overtaking distances assume no
cyclist will ever be on the road.
(3) They cannot be cleaned of debris by normal road
cleaning plant.
(4) They generally suffer from poor priority at
junctions leading to an increase in accidents.
Vehicular drivers consider cyclists on such off road
tracks as "pedestrians", and will not yield
appropriate "rights of way" at junctions.
(5) Off road facilities intrinsically suffer more
conflicts at bus stops.
(6) I won't mention roundabouts, except that they are
still rampantly being constructed all around the
country to the detriment of future cyclists.  Off road
facilities don't cope at roundabouts either.

The section on "Quality Segregared Facilities" has not
previously appeared on the draft documents.  It is now
being presented as the AGREED position of the cycle
forum.   As usual the 'safety' agenda is being used as
the justification.  Also there is mention of
segregatrating cyclists and HGV's.  It is our belief
that the DTO will attempt to do this by banning
cyclists from the quays, the port area, and on-road
use of distributor roads and QBC's.  The reference to
'quality' facilities seems to be more lip service.
There is no evidence that the DTO has any record or
interest in providing quality facilites. If one takes
the view that the primary purpose of 'segregated cycle
facilities' is to provide a pretext for exclusion of
cyclists from many rights of way, then this objective
does not require any management of quality. This
hypothesis fits the facts we see on the ground. This
also raises the question of Compulsory Use. It is felt
by many that this was not an incidental, or
accidental, piece of legislation.

The combination of the compulsary use statutory
instrument and the proposal for "quality segregated
facilities" means that the right to choose one's own
safe path on the road is removed.  The possibility of
having accidents with left turning vehicles
(especially HGVs) is if anything even higher – this is
particularly so for inexperienced cyclists.

It seems to the Dublin Cycling Campaign that the
thinking behind the new section is to take cyclists
out of the way of motor traffic so that (maximum)
speeds can be kept high.  In keeping with this there
is no mention of 20mph speed limits as there was in
previous versions.    To put it another way the new
approach puts the flows of motor traffic above the
safety of cyclists.  The Dublin Cycling Campaign will
be publicly making this point from now on that road
capacity is more important than the safety of those on
bicycles.

TWO: Relationship between the Design Guidelines Manual
and the NRA Design Manual?
How is a stand alone manual on the design of cycling
infrastructure expected to function independently of
the National road design manuals which are
administered by the NRA?  Cyclists are an intrinsic
part of road traffic, and the National road design
manuals should reflect this by taking cognisance of
cyclists' needs and prohibiting designs proved to be
dangerous for cyclists. Cycling is not just a Dublin
issue.


THREE: Responses to other individual points
Response to section 3.1. (Cycle Numbers) point   (v)
How do you know that numbers have increased on these
routes - which routes have they specific data for?
Response to section 3.1. (Cycle Numbers) point   (vi)
Again can we see the figures -  cycling numbers for
the last 10 years -  we are really in the dark on the
way trends are going, did the number of cyclists drop
and does this explain the drop in injuries ?

Response to section 3.2. (Cycling Obstacles and
requirements) - add in (xi) no fixed cleaning of cycle
paths - to remove glass, leaves or snow. This has just
gone on for years and nothing happens. Endless talk
but the Local Auth. have done zero on this front
(xii) Excessive traffic volumes in the city centre.
What ever happened to reducing the number of car
parking spaces by 5% per year. We have the highest
percentage of workers entering city centre by car of
any capital city in Europe.
(xiii). Law enforcement is a joke. 4  active speed
cameras in the whole republic. Britain is planning to
increase its number of cameras to 4,500 in the coming
2 years. Average motorist gets a speeding ticket every
8 years - this despite NRA survey showing over 90%
non-compliance in urban areas. Also drink driving is
rampant. Average time interval to be breathalayzed is
110 years in Ireland, while in Victoria (Aus.) it is
every 20 months.
(xiv) No specific ticket for cars parked on bicycle
lanes - only can enforce by way of a summons - which
means not a finger is lifted by gardai.
(xv) removal of compulsary use of cycle tracks.
(xvi) Crazy car focused junction design such as
Dundrum bypass.

Response to Section 4.3 Outer suburbs -add in
1. No new housing/ business estates that do not
contain 'shortest route' - pedestrian and cyclists
links
2. Road calming should never use pinch point type
design
3. No more slip road desgns
Response to Section 4.3.1 Current non city center
employment - add to 3 year actions
1. Employeer leaflet check list of what to do - racks,
showers, loans etc
2. Localised "Cycle time to work" posters for each
area of the city.

Response to Section 5.1 Policy of cycle facilities
provision - add in
1.  Review process for all existing cycle routes and
procedure for  cyclists to have design/enforcement
issues dealt with - some one within each local Auth.

Response to Section 5.2. N.B Segregated facilities
1. Only off road if there is no junction e.g. (along
by the sea front).
2. Design should NEVER include get off your bike and
walk across the road.

Response to Section 5.3 Cycle parking - add in
1. Demand all CIE companies adopt a policy of
"Integrated sustainable transport"
2. Racks should be conveniently located, secure, easy
to use, adequately lit, covered by CCTV , be well sign
posted and as close to the entrance as possible.

Response to Section 5.7 Monitoring
1. Spell out how, when and where this monitoring is
going to take place.

Response to Section 5.8 Promotion
1. Give a detailed benefit/risk analysis with all the
medical survey references

Response to Section 5.10 Priority work
Change point 1 - to say that bad cycle tracks should
be upgraded or "REMOVED".

Summary  - point 5 Enforcement
Big picture speeding, drink driving etc.

Also never covered
1. Appointment of Cycling officer in each local
authority area
2. Need for once a year engineer traffic engineers
from each local authority to sit down with the DCC and
DTO to discuss progress in their area and plans for
next year.
3. HGV ban in the city centre, both accessing the port
and delivering - i.e. a limit on truck sizes
4. Introduction of 20mph limits in the city centre
5. Any driver education programme included?
Particularly HGV's





David Maher
Public Relations Officer
Dublin Cycling Campaign
>
********************************************************************************\
*****************************>

>
>



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Just got confirmation of this. This is a great opportunity to tell them what we
want.

Who is interested in attending with me. I want to keep the delegation to max of
3.

All suggestions on what our focus should be are welcome.

David.




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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

>I've got quite involved in this if anyone wants to phone me I'm on 027
63304 - my computer's banjaxed

Oh man why don't we push for the law they have in Holland and places-i
think
>it was mentoined here before..its how that in an accident with a bike the
>motorist is
>always viewed to be in the wrong,something to that extent can't remember
>exactly..
>but thats whats needed for some due attention for us unprotected at risk
>road users..
>Rory..
>
>At 10:17 06/02/2003 +0000, Damien O Tuama wrote:
>>David et al,
>>
>>Do we now know if and when there is a deadline for receipt of submissions
in
>>respect of the revising of the "Rules of the Road"?
>>
>>If it's not for another month or more, then we should perhaps wait for a
bit
>>more input from as many activists as possible, rather than rushing
putting a
>>submission in.  Perhaps we can get a chance to discuss this in
>>Portarlington?  The ROTR obviously have a national remit so I would guess
>>that this is exactly the type of thing that an Irish Cycling Campaign
would
>>look at.
>>
>>D
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> >From: david maher <maherd70@...>
>> >To: dublin-cycling@yahoogroups.com
>> >Subject: [Dublin-Cycling] Revision of the Rules of the Road - what we
want
>> >Date: Wed, 5 Feb 2003 20:09:29 +0000 (GMT)
>> >
>> >
>> >Hi,
>> >       thanks to a  letter from Dr. Mike McMillen, we now now that the
>> >"Rules of the Road" now come under the DoT. I am going to send them a
>> >formal letter on this as the response that Mike got was very very poor.
>> >Anyway the 3 things that I can come up with that I want changed are:
>> >1. Lights things
>> >2. Section showing impact on cyclists/pedestrian deaths at 20,30 & 40
mph.
>> >I heard Pat Kenny say last week that if a child was hit by a car the
speed
>> >would be irrevelant !
>> >3. Putting onus on motorised road users not to kill other road users !,
>> >rather than at present the responsibility seems to be not to get
killed.
>> >Comments and suggestions welcome.
>> >David.
>> >  shane foran <galwaycyclist@...> wrote:Even if they are not
>> >flashing, LEDs may not be legal-
>> >from memory the regulation/bye law states that the
>> >rear lamp is to have a minimum diameter of 2".
>> >
>> >Shane
>> >
>> >__________________________________________________
>> >Do You Yahoo!?
>> >Everything you'll ever need on one web page
>> >from News and Sport to Email and Music Charts
>> >http://uk.my.yahoo.com
>> >
>> >To Unsubscribe, send a message to:
>> >
>> >Dublin-Cycling-Unsubscribe@Egroups.com
>> >
>> >Archived messages http://www.egroups.com/messages/Dublin-Cycling
>> >
>> >DCC c/o 12 Millmount Grove, Dublin 14. EMAIL dcc@...
>> >DCC Message Board http://network54.com/Hide/Forum/32834
>> >DCC Forum http://network54.com/Hide/Forum/32834
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>> >Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>> >
>>
>>
>>_________________________________________________________________
>>MSN 8 with e-mail virus protection service: 2 months FREE*
>>http://join.msn.com/?page=features/virus
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>>
>>To Unsubscribe, send a message to:
>>
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>>
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http://www.iol.ie

>I've got quite involved in this if anyone wants to phone me I'm on 027
63304 - my computer's banjaxed

Oh man why don't we push for the law they have in Holland and places-i
think
>it was mentoined here before..its how that in an accident with a bike the
>motorist is
>always viewed to be in the wrong,something to that extent can't remember
>exactly..
>but thats whats needed for some due attention for us unprotected at risk
>road users..
>Rory..
>
>At 10:17 06/02/2003 +0000, Damien O Tuama wrote:
>>David et al,
>>
>>Do we now know if and when there is a deadline for receipt of submissions
in
>>respect of the revising of the "Rules of the Road"?
>>
>>If it's not for another month or more, then we should perhaps wait for a
bit
>>more input from as many activists as possible, rather than rushing
putting a
>>submission in.  Perhaps we can get a chance to discuss this in
>>Portarlington?  The ROTR obviously have a national remit so I would guess
>>that this is exactly the type of thing that an Irish Cycling Campaign
would
>>look at.
>>
>>D
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> >From: david maher <maherd70@...>
>> >To: dublin-cycling@yahoogroups.com
>> >Subject: [Dublin-Cycling] Revision of the Rules of the Road - what we
want
>> >Date: Wed, 5 Feb 2003 20:09:29 +0000 (GMT)
>> >
>> >
>> >Hi,
>> >       thanks to a  letter from Dr. Mike McMillen, we now now that the
>> >"Rules of the Road" now come under the DoT. I am going to send them a
>> >formal letter on this as the response that Mike got was very very poor.
>> >Anyway the 3 things that I can come up with that I want changed are:
>> >1. Lights things
>> >2. Section showing impact on cyclists/pedestrian deaths at 20,30 & 40
mph.
>> >I heard Pat Kenny say last week that if a child was hit by a car the
speed
>> >would be irrevelant !
>> >3. Putting onus on motorised road users not to kill other road users !,
>> >rather than at present the responsibility seems to be not to get
killed.
>> >Comments and suggestions welcome.
>> >David.
>> >  shane foran <galwaycyclist@...> wrote:Even if they are not
>> >flashing, LEDs may not be legal-
>> >from memory the regulation/bye law states that the
>> >rear lamp is to have a minimum diameter of 2".
>> >
>> >Shane
>> >
>> >__________________________________________________
>> >Do You Yahoo!?
>> >Everything you'll ever need on one web page
>> >from News and Sport to Email and Music Charts
>> >http://uk.my.yahoo.com
>> >
>> >To Unsubscribe, send a message to:
>> >
>> >Dublin-Cycling-Unsubscribe@Egroups.com
>> >
>> >Archived messages http://www.egroups.com/messages/Dublin-Cycling
>> >
>> >DCC c/o 12 Millmount Grove, Dublin 14. EMAIL dcc@...
>> >DCC Message Board http://network54.com/Hide/Forum/32834
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http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>> >
>>
>>
>>_________________________________________________________________
>>MSN 8 with e-mail virus protection service: 2 months FREE*
>>http://join.msn.com/?page=features/virus
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>>
>>To Unsubscribe, send a message to:
>>
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>>Archived messages http://www.egroups.com/messages/Dublin-Cycling
>>
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>
>To Unsubscribe, send a message to:
>
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>
>
>
>
http://www.iol.ie

>What response did he get - The need the info to expose the DOT's lie that
they are consulting NGO's and the public
>Hi,
>      thanks to a  letter from Dr. Mike McMillen, we now now that the
"Rules of the Road" now come under the DoT. I am going to send them a
formal letter on this as the response that Mike got was very very poor.
>Anyway the 3 things that I can come up with that I want changed are:
>1. Lights things
>2. Section showing impact on cyclists/pedestrian deaths at 20,30 & 40 mph.
I heard Pat Kenny say last week that if a child was hit by a car the speed
would be irrevelant !
>3. Putting onus on motorised road users not to kill other road users !,
rather than at present the responsibility seems to be not to get killed.
>Comments and suggestions welcome.
>David.
> shane foran <galwaycyclist@...> wrote:Even if they are not
flashing, LEDs may not be legal-
>from memory the regulation/bye law states that the
>rear lamp is to have a minimum diameter of 2".
>
>Shane
>
>__________________________________________________
>Do You Yahoo!?
>Everything you'll ever need on one web page
>from News and Sport to Email and Music Charts
>http://uk.my.yahoo.com
>
>To Unsubscribe, send a message to:
>
>Dublin-Cycling-Unsubscribe@Egroups.com
>
>Archived messages http://www.egroups.com/messages/Dublin-Cycling
>
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>[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
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Mike,
Jerry McSweeney sent me draft minutes yesterday, which I need to quickly go
through, and will then send on to the list of everyone who attended.

Our apologies for the delay with this - we've been fairly busy getting in a
detailed response to the DTO on their Cycle Forum document and other issues.

Will send it out asap (well within the week)
Damien



>From: "Mike O'Brien" <mikeobrien9@...>
>Reply-To: "Mike O'Brien" <mikeobrien9@...>
>To: "Damien O Tuama" <damodublin@...>
>Subject: Re: Formation of Irish Cycling Campaign
>Date: Tue, 25 Feb 2003 12:03:16 -0000
>
>Damien,
>
>I attended the recent meeting re the above in Portarlington and I
>understood
>that minutes were to be sent per email to all attendees. I have received
>nothing yet. Do you know if thety've been issued ?  If so can you forward
>them to me at your connvenience.
>
>Mike O'Brien,
>Kilkenny.


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Just sent in this submission below:
1. Part 1 - General rules, should contain a single page dedicated to the varying
degrees of danger poised to pedestrians/cyclists by cars travelling at 20, 30
and 40 mph with the corresponding % (I think 5%, 50% & 87%) fatalities. A good
guide I have seen in a British road safety publication used a sketch of the
impact of jumping from the 2nd, 3rd or 4th storey of a building to illustrate
the point.
2. Part 1 - General rules: A simple statement, that "the primary responsibility
of all road users is not to act in a manner that endangers the safety of other
road users". This is simply to get across the message that road safety is not
primarily  about looking after just your own safety (which seems to be the focus
of most of the motoring industries advertising).
3. Part 2 Driving Rules (Parking)
a.  It should be prohibited to park on bicycle track (currently there is not
specific garda ticket to enforce this law, it can only be done by  a summons -
which never happens).
b.  There should be the introduction of double red lines (similar to London) to
prevent dangerous parking for drop off/delivery purposes. This is a major issue
on very busy city streets at peak time (when most cyclists are on the road), and
causes a major safety issue. The current double yellow lines regulations are so
open to abuse as to be almost uses.
4. Part 2 Driving Rules (The Driver and other road users). A specific point
should be added to say it is prohibited to overtake cyclists and to then
immediately turn left.
5. Part 3 Heavy good vehicles. There should be a clear section outlining that
the parking of good vehicles (especially HGVs) is prohibited in residential
areas.
6. Part 4 Rules for Other road users
a. It should be spelt out that LED lights (flashing and static) are acceptable
under the law. At present the requirement is that the light should be constant
and non LED. The LED lights are much more effective. Also the new gardai
bicycles come equipped with rear LEDs - so they are at present breaking the law.
b. The requirement that all bikes should be equipped with a bell should be
dropped. It is the general experience that in the high level of traffic noise
that bells are of little or no value.



Yours truly,
_________________________
David Maher
PRO Dublin Cycling Campaign





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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Just sent in this submission below:
1. Part 1 - General rules, should contain a single page dedicated to the varying
degrees of danger poised to pedestrians/cyclists by cars travelling at 20, 30
and 40 mph with the corresponding % (I think 5%, 50% & 87%) fatalities. A good
guide I have seen in a British road safety publication used a sketch of the
impact of jumping from the 2nd, 3rd or 4th storey of a building to illustrate
the point.
2. Part 1 - General rules: A simple statement, that "the primary responsibility
of all road users is not to act in a manner that endangers the safety of other
road users". This is simply to get across the message that road safety is not
primarily  about looking after just your own safety (which seems to be the focus
of most of the motoring industries advertising).
3. Part 2 Driving Rules (Parking)
a.  It should be prohibited to park on bicycle track (currently there is not
specific garda ticket to enforce this law, it can only be done by  a summons -
which never happens).
b.  There should be the introduction of double red lines (similar to London) to
prevent dangerous parking for drop off/delivery purposes. This is a major issue
on very busy city streets at peak time (when most cyclists are on the road), and
causes a major safety issue. The current double yellow lines regulations are so
open to abuse as to be almost uses.
4. Part 2 Driving Rules (The Driver and other road users). A specific point
should be added to say it is prohibited to overtake cyclists and to then
immediately turn left.
5. Part 3 Heavy good vehicles. There should be a clear section outlining that
the parking of good vehicles (especially HGVs) is prohibited in residential
areas.
6. Part 4 Rules for Other road users
a. It should be spelt out that LED lights (flashing and static) are acceptable
under the law. At present the requirement is that the light should be constant
and non LED. The LED lights are much more effective. Also the new gardai
bicycles come equipped with rear LEDs - so they are at present breaking the law.
b. The requirement that all bikes should be equipped with a bell should be
dropped. It is the general experience that in the high level of traffic noise
that bells are of little or no value.



Yours truly,
_________________________
David Maher
PRO Dublin Cycling Campaign





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needs


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Rail Services.
391. Mr. Sargent asked the Minister for Transport the extent to which he
supports the policy of bike and ride in relation to rail travel; the
financial support and bicycle parking facilities, both covered and secured
which will be required from Iarnród Éireann; and the timeframe for this
policy. [23605/02]
Minister for Transport (Mr. Brennan): I fully support bike and ride
initiatives in the public transport arena, which makes it easier for a
prospective user of such services.
A range of initiatives have been taken by Iarnród Éireann in recent years to
support the development of bike and ride. These include: the development of
cycle parks - these are lock-up storerooms for bicycles where the cyclist
pays a deposit for a key to the lock-up - there are seven stations to date
which can offer this facility in the Dublin area; and the provision of cycle
racks which cyclists can use to store bicycles while they commute the rest
of their journey by rail. I have been advised that this service is available
at 15 stations in the Dublin area. In addition, as part of the financial
support provided for the redevelopment programme at Heuston Station, there
will be a facility for 250 bicycles utilising stanley racks in a secure
location within the car park, monitored by CCTV. The company further informs
me that, as refurbishment of stations takes place throughout the country, it
is its policy that provision will be made for the parking of bicycles as a
matter of course.
While Irish Rail do not have figures for the precise cost of providing
bicycle facilities as part of their general development programmes, I am
advised that the Dublin Transportation Office has provided grants to Local
Authorities on the DART route for cycling facilities from time to time. In
this connection, €516,000 and €38,200 has been provided to Fingal County
Council and Dún Laoghaire County Council respectively for cycle links to the
DART and €35,000 and €9,500 to Fingal County Council and Bray Urban District
Council respectively for cycle parking facilities. There has also been
investment made by the DTO into a bus and cycle initiative at Howth Junction
to the value of €200,000 this year. There are also hopes to extend the park
and ride cycle facility like the one currently in operation in Bray to the
rest of the line.

Rail Services

   260. Mr. Eamon Ryan asked the Minister for Transport his views on whether
the space available on mainline trains is adequate for bicycles; his further
views on whether the cost of transporting bicycles on mainline trains does
little to encourage greater use of public transport or indeed to promote
cycling as an alternative to the car which could help to reduce the number
of cars on already congested roads; and his further views on whether the
lack of infrastructure and facilities to store bicycles at train stations
further adds to the problem. [2964/03]

    Minister for Transport (Mr. Brennan): In relation to cycle facilities on
trains and at train stations, I recently requested my Department to
facilitate the establishment of a dialogue between Iarnród Éireann and
various cycling representative groups under the umbrella of the Irish
Cycling Campaign to discuss, these issues and other concerns brought to my
attention by cycling interests. The initial meeting was held on 28 January
2003.  This initiative will begin a process which will facilitate the
development of an overall policy on cycling facilities by Iarnród Éireann in
partnership with the cycling groups.

Road Safety

   257. Mr. Eamon Ryan asked the Minister for Transport if his Department is
revising the rules of the road; if so, the persons who have been consulted
regarding the proposed changes; and the timetable for the introduction.
[2954/03]

    Minister for Transport (Mr. Brennan): The current text of the Rules of
the Road dates from 1995. I am conscious of the fact that the booklet needs
to be revised to reflect changes made in road traffic laws over the past
seven years. A limited review was instigated in 1999, however as this was
not completed in advance of the passage of the Road Traffic Act 2002, a more
comprehensive review is now required.
   The review will encompass the advances being progressed under that Act and
will also include the results of a separate review of speed limits that I
announced recently.  It is my intention that the proposed review will
include a broadly based consultative process and that a new booklet will be
made available as soon as possible after that process is completed.





[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

I agree that bells should not be mandatory; a shout is the obvious warning.

At the same time, some people like bells. David M says "in the high level of
traffic noise . . .bells are of little or no value."

I have a bell that is cranked by my front wheel, just like a dynamo. Volume
varies with speed. You should see them jump.

It is made by Reich (Germany) and was bought in England; I don't know if
they are available here yet.

~Andrew

I got a 115dB siren from Maplin and connected it to a 9 volt battery (rated
voltage is 12 volts). I fitted a small switch to my brake hood (racing bike) and
it works very well - until the weather corrodes the connections. I must get it
weather-proofed. The regulations apparently state that a normal bicycle bell is
mandatory except on racing bikes. I really relish the thought of tinkling a
cheery sounding little bell on a 40 ton truck.

I'd really like to get one of those loud truck horns and mount it on the bike
(I'd need a Bob-trailer for the battery but it would be worth it).

Paddy.

Andrew Robinson wrote:

> I agree that bells should not be mandatory; a shout is the obvious warning.
>
> At the same time, some people like bells. David M says "in the high level of
> traffic noise . . .bells are of little or no value."
>
> I have a bell that is cranked by my front wheel, just like a dynamo. Volume
> varies with speed. You should see them jump.
>
> It is made by Reich (Germany) and was bought in England; I don't know if
> they are available here yet.
>
> ~Andrew
>
> To Unsubscribe, send a message to:
>
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Hi

A friend has contacted me off list to take issue with
my use of the term "enemy camp" in my last posting.
Clearly I owe it to people not to leave it hanging
without explanation.  It is also past time for some
“air clearing”.

Historically cycling has had two main enemies, the car
lobby, and the environmental lobby.


The car lobby, and the financially motivated
interested attached to it, wish to monopolise access
to the state's roads infrastructure at the expense of
other road user groups.  The mainly urban, middle
class, environmental lobby can be viewed as
"defectors" or "converts" from the car lobby.
In terms of culture and values it is reasonable to
treat a large element of the environmental lobby as an
offshoot of the car lobby.


The environmental lobby have identified cycling
promotion as a potential means for the furtherance of
their wider social and political agenda.  As a
consequence an element within the environmental lobby
have attempted to hijack cycling promotion to this
end.  In the process of trying to push their
socio-political agenda, the environmental lobby have
often ridden rough shod over the work of cycling
activists who have spent years researching cycling
safety and promotion, and years trying to improve the
lot of everyday bicycle users.   The ultimate irony
being that in many cases, the environmental lobby has
ended up putting significant effort into attempting to
impose the car lobby's preferred "solutions" to the
"problem" of cyclists.  In effect, an element of the
environmental lobby has being doing the car lobby’s
dirty work for them.  In many cases the result has
quite predictably been a disaster for cyclists.  For
me as a cycling activist the fact that some of those
involved may 1) have had the best of intentions and 2)
not realised they were hijacking anything, is
irrelevant.


For this reason there is a strand within cycling
activism both nationally and internationally, that
quite properly and reasonably views the environmental
lobby as the more dangerous enemy.


Following our formation in 1998, the very first threat
that the Galway Cycling Campaign faced was just such a
hijack attempt by the Galway greens.  (Who wanted us,
without consultation, to endorse their own version of
a strategic cycle network, which was to be based on
the city-wide use of footpath type "cycle
facilities".)  The Limerick Greens also came up with
cycle lane proposals for Limerick apparently
independently of any considerations regarding the
suitability of the wider road network (Their document
also contained no mention of roundabouts at all). In
addition, according to the published and still
available, Limerick Greens position document they also
want to bring in legislation to force cyclists to use
these cycle lanes.  The Dublin Greens are intimately
associated with the imposition of the Dublin Strategic
Cycle Network.  I must point out that several
prominent members of the Dublin Cycling Campaign are
also Green Party members and/or activists.  It is also
clear from reading posts to this list that there are
cyclists in Dublin who are deeply concerned by what
they see as a cosy relationship between the DCC
leadership and various Govt agencies, local
authorities, or committees thereof, upon which the
Green party is also represented.  To be frank, the
internal affairs of either the Green party or the
Dublin Cycling Campaign are none of my business.  In
fact, when it comes to cycle campaigning, I would much
prefer to have the luxury of neither knowing nor
caring about a fellow campaigner's political
affiliations.  Prudence and bitter experience prevent
me from indulging in such a luxury


This country is now in the countdown phase to the next
local elections.  During these elections we will no
doubt get various Green party candidates going around
various towns promising to get "X" kilometres of
"cycle network" constructed and trying to take credit
for the "Y" kilometres of "cycle network" already
constructed.  The only possible “fly” in this
particular ointment is the wider cycling lobby outside
this particular political grouping.  I note there are
several people who post to this list who have taken
particular issue with this type of claim and this type
of approach.  Now if I was in the Green party, I would
be looking for some way to neutralise this “fly”.


Next enter stage left, two known Green Party activists
who announce a meeting of unspecified, unidentified,
cyclists from around the country for the formation of
a national "Irish Cycle Campaign".  Now the one thing
I know about cycle campaigning in Ireland is that it
revolves around a fairly small group of people most of
whose existence is already known to the others.
However it now seemed that somebody had managed to
find another group of activists who wanted to form a
national cycle campaign.


I respectfully suggest, that based on the facts which
I had available, I or anyone else, would have to have
been a fool not to anticipate some kind of funny
business in Portarlington.  For all we knew, we were
being invited to some kind of mini-Green party rally
for the purpose of 1) pushing the party line and 2)
isolating and silencing the "awkward" element of the
wider cycling lobby.  (It's what I would do if I was a
Green Party tactician).  I might also point out that
an attempt could have been made to engineer such an
outcome without the knowledge of any of the
individuals directly involved in arranging the event.
i.e. I am in no way seeking to imply that I knew
anyone among the organisers to have such motives.  I
personally know none of the people involved and I was
not, and am not, in a position to make any assumptions
based on knowledge or experience.  Even if I was in
such a position, and had every confidence in the
motives of the organisers, straightforward prudence
required that I anticipate every eventuality.  For me
to do otherwise would be to abdicate my
responsibilities to the group of which I am a member.


Hence my reference to being present in the enemy camp.
  I must point out that as far as I am concerned the
jury is still out on this issue and will be for some
considerable time.  If anyone thinks this was an
implausible scenario then they have a lot to learn
about politics as it operates in Ireland.


I hope this clarifies my position.


Shane




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Can anyone with ideas on this please contact Milena at the above email address.
  milena.rousseau2@... wrote:Dear mr or mrs,

As part of our Final Year BA in European Business in Dublin City
University, we have to create (or develop) virtually a Business Idea in
Ireland. We choose to implement Bike Racks for Buses. We first have to
develop a Market Research, the Financial Statements and the Final
Business Plan. Then, we will submit the project to Dublin Bus and Bus
Eireann
I have read with great attention your program and I thought you could be
of great help to achieve the projet.

I have contacted a Bike Racks provider in the States, to have more informations
about the prices and conditions.
Have you ever think of such a project, do you think it will be accepted
by Dublin Buses or Bus Eirann?
I was wondering if by chance you could provide us with more informations
( like market researches and business plan for example).


I hope our project will catch your attention, and as I said before, any
kind of information will be useful to us.

I thank you in advance and am looking forward to hearing from you soon
Best Regards,

Milena Rousseau
French Student
European Business Programm
Final Year
Dublin City University
Dublin


Here are some sites that might be of interest for you:

www.massbike.org/info/mbtarack.htm
www.vabike.org/aa_busr.htm
http://www.pedalpower.org.au/media/m16may02.pdf








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Hello All Members of this list

I am sending you final greetings on this list.

The list has become difficult to operate recently and I am unhappy about
the content. It no longer carries out the function for which it was
originally intended and as moderator I cannot stand over some of the uses
to which it is being put.

I encourage you all to visit our host yahoogroups.com and form your own
email list so you can stay in touch with each other.

I remain a moderator of the list called Dublincyclingcampaign which is for
announcements from the DCC and I have also created a list called
DublinCycling@yahoogroups.com to which all members of the Dublin Cycling
Campaign are invited to join.

One restriction applies - you must provide full profile details on
application.

Regards to everyone

Brendan Sheehan


Brendan Sheehan

All,
              I have updated the DCC website and the page on how to join the
mailing list now relates to how to join the Dublincyclingcampaign list to
recieve news bulletins from the Dublin cycling campaign.
Many of you are already members of the list and so will not have to join. Those
who wish to be added should go to
http://www.connect.ie/dcc/docs/ygroups.html and follow the instructions:
I have listed the contents of this web page below:
Steps
1. Entitle email "I wish to be added to theDublincyclingcampaign list"
2. send an email to bsheehan@...
3. Our list moderator will add you to the email list within 2-3 days.
How Does Email List work ?
Being added to the list will ensure that you will recieve an email from the
campaign every 1-2 weeks that will contain the lastest DCC news - in terms of
upcoming meetings, current projects that the DCC are working on and also provide
a forum for
members to reply with information they wish the list moderators to forward to
the group.

Regards,
David.




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