Hi all

The automatic reminder sent out to all members by eGroups regarding the
meeting on monday says 8pm - it's actually 7.30pm

I thought I had changed the robots batteries

Sorry for the confusion.

Bs

Sorry I missed the call for Agenda items for this month's meeting.
Perhaps it's no harm: it gives an opportunity for discussion by
E-mail before next month's meeting.

I assume that liaison with local authorities in the Dublin region
is a standing Agenda item.  I wonder what is already being done
(and what further needs doing) in the framework of this liaison
to obtain from the local authorities a commitment to excellence
in design and implementation of cycle facilities.

The need for such a commitment is illustrated by the recent work
of two of the authorities which have succeeded Dublin County Council.
Since autumn of last year, both South Dublin and Dun Laoghaire
Rathdown County Councils have used their resources to implement what
are clearly intended as "cycle facilities", but without apparently
taking into account either the practical needs of cyclists or the
recommendations contained in the document entitled "Provision of
Cycle Facilities -- National Manual for Urban Areas".

I hope to make some suggestions at another time on how to engage
the local authorities.  I feel this would be premature before I
learn more about existing liaison channels and processes.  I'm new
the the Campaign, and don't want to re-invent wheels or upset people's
applecarts.

Best regards,

Niall O'Reilly

> -----Original Message-----
> From: John Gilmore
> Sent: Wednesday, April 12, 2000 1:41 PM
> To: John Gilmore
> Subject: FW: Welcome to the dublin-cycling group
>
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: John Gilmore
> Sent: 12 April 2000 12:32
> To: 'dublin-cycling-unsubscribe-john.gilmore=dkit.ie@egroups.com'
> Subject: RE: Welcome to the dublin-cycling group
>
>
>
> Once more with feeling--did anyone else get this apart from one member who
> replied?
> Any comments welcome
>
>
>                   Carrots and Sticks Time
>
> Dear DCC,
> If I may address you as such,
>
> Now that we have all these lovely (?) cycle lanes, is it time to provide
> a big carrot to get the unconverted (those not in the DCC) to use them.
> Is it time to tax cars entering the city centre and pay cyclists??????
>
> This could be arranged quite easily, by charging cars a tenner as they
> cross the canals, and paying cyclists a fiver in the form of a voucher
> which they could cash in when they park it in the bottom storey of the
> closest multi-storey car park to their workplace. The spare fiver could
> pay for the administration and also ensure that the car park owners
> also got an increase in income from all the bikes now occupying  the
> car spaces. Any biker leaving work early would pay back a pro-rata
> amount of cash ---- to prevent cyclists going from one car/bike -park
> to the next one round the block.
>
> All comments welcome-I already know I am a hopeless dreamer.
>
> John Gilmore
>

Hi everyone,

Just a little reminder about the Dublin Bay Cycle which is on next Sunday.

AS you will see from the sponsorship card sent out to you in recent
mailings the event is going to be a big one and it will attract a lot of
interest.

Many members of the DCC will be taking part. Please remember to wear your
DCC badge so other members will recognise you.

If you are planning to take part please take a little time just now to
email member dermurray@... who is coordinating the DCC's participation.

If you want to help staff our stall in Blackrock Park please email
damodublin@... who is getting all that together.

I shall be away unfortunately and will not be able to make it on Sunday
but here's hoping for great weather.

Good luck

Brendan sheehan
membership secretary

VAN VELZEN Pieter wrote (directly to Niall O'Reilly):
>
> Niall
>
> Welcome to the Campaign!
>
> While the Campaign occasionally has representatives on various local
> authority (and DTO) committees, these committees are not always in contact
> with the local authorities road designers. Do not make the mistake of
> assuming that local authorities are coherent bodies that communicate
> sensibly among themselves or internally!

Useful though these committees are, I would see it as important to
establish formal liaison at County Engineer level, with regular meetings
at that or an immediately subordinate level.  Internal communication
may be haphazard, but the road designers must report ultimately to the
County Engineer.

Such liaison would allow us to give feedback on the quality and
relevance of the designers' interpretation either of recommendations
contained in the manual or of input given by DCC through the
committees you mention.

This might be set up in the following way.  All four (Corpo + three
Dublin County Councils) local authorities would be invited to engage
in such liaison.  One or more of them would be selected, on the basis
of enthusiasm shown and availability of Campaign people in the
particular local authority area, to pilot this kind of liaison for
a defined period.  Interim and final reports would be published and
brought to the attention of significant public figures, such as the
Minister for the Environment, the Garda Commissioner, Consumer
Association of Ireland, Director of Consumer Affairs, editors of local
newspapers , and appropriate officers in the invited local authorities
not selected for the pilot. This would give the pilot participant(s)
the opportunity to take (or lose) any political or PR advantage
according to the quality of their response to the pilot.

Depending on the experience and availability of people, the liaison
scheme would be extended after the pilot period to the other local
authorities.

Comments and improvements welcome!

Niall O'Reilly

VAN VELZEN Pieter wrote (directly to Niall O'Reilly):
>
> Niall
>
> Welcome to the Campaign!

[ ... ]

> Occasionally, the campaign will examine plans for a particular development,
> and make (constructive) comments to support and improve the proposal,
> remembering that there are those who object adamantly to any proposed
> development and we do want the cycle facilities to be constructed in the
> first place.

I'm not sure who is represented by "we" here.

I would hope that this desire for construction of cycle facilities is
not
unconditional.  I find it objectional that my tax monies are wasted in
the
construction of unsuitable "cycle facilities", with no benefit to anyone
but
to self-serving local authorities who can point to the annual increase
in
kilometres of such facilities to show how "green" and "cycle-friendly"
they
are.  Such facilities reduce road space formerly used for mixed-mode
traffic,
do not attract cycle traffic, irritate motorists who must share a
narrower
but still mixed-mode carriageway with cyclists whom they cannot safely
overtake, lead to additional tension between cyclists and motorists, and
thus jeopardise, rather than enhance, the safety of cyclists.

I've read that the Galway Cycling Campaign has had resort to the Garda
Commissioner to have purported cycle facilities de-classified as such.
While this must be seen as a success from the civil liberties
perspective,
it is extraordinary that the local authority seems to have been content
to have registered such a significant failure on its part.

I feel that if the approach I suggested in an earlier mail -- the
approach
of constructive liaison -- were not successful in obtaining the desired
response from our local authorities, the "plan B" should be to adopt a
strategy like that of the GCC.  In such a case, consideration should be
given to involving not only the Garda Commissioner, but also the
Ombudsman and even the Comptroller and Auditor General.

I would hope that such a heavy-handed approach would not prove
necessary.

Niall O'Reilly

VAN VELZEN Pieter wrote (directly to Niall O'Reilly):
>
> Niall
>
> Welcome to the Campaign!

  [ ... ]

> After construction, the campaign tries to review newly constructed
> facilities, sometimes with representatives of the local authority. to try to
> have the grosser defects rectified.

I've noticed some really gross ones.  8-)

Any statistics ?

For example: number of reviews, proportion of cases where local
authority
co-operated, number of satisfactory solutions agreed, number actually
implemented.

Niall O'Reilly

VAN VELZEN Pieter wrote:
>
> Niall
>
> Welcome to the Campaign!

  [ ... ]

> One of the problems is that some perceive that there are very few cyclists
> who use the facilities provided.

I know of quite a few "facilities" which are designed, constructed, or
maintained in such a way as to encourage me _not_ to use them.

> For this reason, there is nothing to stop
> people (like yourself) writing to the relevant local authority itemising the
> deficiencies you found on the cycle track(s). Photos of the offences could
> be of assistance.

Point taken.  Would it be interesting to use digicam and place the
photos
on the campaign's web site, starting with the most irritating examples ?

> In this way the local Authority is made aware of
> deficiencies, can educate its road designers and is aware of one more
> cyclist who uses the facilities provided.

Only if there is enthusiastic management buy-in at a sufficiently high
level in the local authority.  If not, this is like trying to cool Hell
with a limited supply of snowballs!

> Mentioning safety is usually a
> key that will generate action.

Even though this is often not the point.  See the Amsterdam Cycling
Manual (Handboek Fiets Amsterdam, Amsterdam 1991, ISBN 90-70609-08-8)
page 19 for a brief mention of the tension between safety and comfort.
It is recognised that it is often possible to design a solution which
guarantees both.

Happy wheeling!

Niall O'Reilly

I found this site with many useful links related cycling links.  Tell me
what you think.

http://www.bikelane.com/

-Brian

Pieter and Niall:
>
>> For this reason, there is nothing to stop
>> people (like yourself) writing to the relevant local authority itemising
the
>> deficiencies you found on the cycle track(s). Photos of the offences could
>> be of assistance.
>
>Point taken.  Would it be interesting to use digicam and place the
>photos
>on the campaign's web site, starting with the most irritating examples ?
>

I think it would be very useful for us to

* use this mailing list to discuss design issues at specific locations

*use this mailing list as a means of (more or less) agreeing letters on
design issues to be sent to local authorities

* show all such letters on the web site, and the replies if possible.

*provide details by mailing list and web site of all consultation being
carried out by local authorities


David


Daithí Ó hÉalaithe  / David Healy
54 Páirc Éabhóra, Beann Éadair, Co. Bh.Á.C., Éire
tel 353 1 8324087

Scii kaj ne agi estas ne jam scii.

To know and not to act is not yet to know.

Friends of the Irish Environment
http://homepage.eircom.net/~ireland/

David
 

,Daithí Ó hÉalaithe wrote:

Pieter and Niall:
>
>> For this reason, there is nothing to stop
>> people (like yourself) writing to the relevant local authority itemising
the
>> deficiencies you found on the cycle track(s). Photos of the offences could
>> be of assistance.
>
>Point taken.  Would it be interesting to use digicam and place the
>photos
>on the campaign's web site, starting with the most irritating examples ?
>

I think it would be very useful for us to

* use this mailing list to discuss design issues at specific locations

*use this mailing list as a means of (more or less) agreeing letters on
design issues to be sent to local authorities

* show all such letters on the web site, and the replies if possible.

*provide details by mailing list and web site of all consultation being
carried out by local authorities

David

Daithí Ó hÉalaithe  / David Healy
54 Páirc Éabhóra, Beann Éadair, Co. Bh.Á.C., Éire
tel 353 1 8324087

Scii kaj ne agi estas ne jam scii.

To know and not to act is not yet to know.

Friends of the Irish Environment
http://homepage.eircom.net/~ireland/

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David Maher
MIPS Server Group
Oracle Corporation
European Development & Technology Centre,       Ph : 1 - 353 - 1 - 8033257
Blackrock, Co. Dublin                           Fax   : 1 - 353 - 1 - 8033321
Ireland.                                        Email : dmaher@...

>
>The Urban Walking Experience
>
>Conference/Forum at Temple Bar Gallery May 19th & 20th
>
>The objectives of this event are;
>
>1 to use a broad range of experiences to develop guidelines that can be
taken up by planners and community groups to allow walking (the most
sustainable means of movement) take place in a more sustaining context.
>
>2 to identify the key issues relating to the pedestrian experience in an
urban environment
>
>3 examine the feasibility of establishing a forum on walking in Dublin
that acts as a focus for the development of strategies to promote walking
in the urban and periurban environment.
>
>If you or any of your colleagues are interested in attending email
>ken.boyle@...
>
>
>Friday:
>Friday 19th May
>Registration 8.30 – 9.00am
>
>9.00am Opening event
>
>9.30 –11.00
>Guest speakers
>
>Owen Keegan
>Office of Director of Traffic
>
>Tim Brennan,
>Artistic director, Arthouse
>
>Tim Stonor
>Space Syntax, UCL
>
>Frank Magee,
>Director, Dublin Tourism
>
>Coffee 11.00 – 11.30
>Siobhan Ní Éanaigh
>Architect, McGarry Ní Éanaigh
>
>Tom Coffey,
>City Centre Businesses Association
>
>Paddy Murphy
>Irish Heart Foundation
>
>Dick Gleeson
>Deputy City Planner, Dublin Corporation
>
>Jim Walker
>London Walking Forum
>
>Discussion/Questions
>
>Lunch 1.30 – 2.30
>
>Site visits
>1   Greenway   The Liffey Valley
>     Claire Caffrey, Dublin Corporation
>
>2 The George's Street Arcade
> An interpretation by Tim Brennan
>
>3 Dublin's Built Heritage
> A critique by Pat Dargan, DIT
>
>4 Smithfield and HARP
>
>
>5  Exhibitions trail.
>A tour of exhibitions at Temple Bar Gallery, Arthouse and DIT Photography
Studios on the
>theme of trails
>
>
>
>6.00pm Reception at Temple Bar Gallery
>Performance by Trapeze street theatre
>at 7.00pm followed by Meeting of Walk Dance performers at Millennium
bridge at 8.00pm. This
>performance starts from
>City Quays, the plaza at Central Bank and Smithfield Markets, dancers move
to the pedestrian
>bridges for finale.
>
> Day 2 Saturday 20th May
>10.00 – 12.30
>Workshop sessions in the
>morning at a number of venues
>throughout Temple Bar. The list of
>venues and workshop titles are
>listed at the Temple Bar Gallery.
>
>Each workshop will begin with three brief talks on issues relating to the
workshop theme. There
>will then be open
>discussion directed by the chair and a summing up of workshop findings
before lunch.
>
>
>Workshop 1
>Using the city
>Pat Dargan, DIT. Dublin's Built Heritage, the presentation of the city's
medieval walls.
>Tomas Maher, Town and countryside walking tours
>Ed McDonald, Mary St Henry St partnership
>
>Workshop 2
>Design and planning
>Dick Gleeson, the HARP programme
>Margaret Stephenson,
>Claire Caffrey, Greenways in the city
>
>Workshop 3
>A way forward
>Jim Walker, London Walking Forum
>Brendan Sheehan, The Dublin Cycling Campaign
>
>Workshop 4
>Space syntax map of Dublin
>A presentation of an interactive map of Dublin city. Tim Stonor and the
Space Syntax Lab of
>Univ. College London have
>produced a map that identifies the best connected areas of Dublin and
allows new connections to
>be made.
>
>2.00pm
>General discussion and synopsis of findings from each workshop.
>What is the way forward?
>
>3.30pm  Close of forum
> The Urban Walking Experience is a conference and associated Multi-medi a
Event organized by
>DIT, hosted by Temple
>Bar Gallery, Arthouse and the DIT and supported by Dublin Corporation.
>
Daithí Ó hÉalaithe  / David Healy
54 Páirc Éabhóra, Beann Éadair, Co. Bh.Á.C., Éire
tel 353 1 8324087

Scii kaj ne agi estas ne jam scii.

To know and not to act is not yet to know.

Friends of the Irish Environment
http://homepage.eircom.net/~ireland/

Greetings all.
1. Regarding the correspondence on the standard of cycle facilities being
built / already built, the way the DCC has tried to work on this is as
follows:
(i)Alert the Co. Co. that a particular route is hazardous and recommend that
it be made cycle friendly, more often than not with the construction of
cycle facilities.  We would give specific details regarding dangerous points
/ and how to improve it... - particularly during the public consultatoin
period.
(ii)get to see the design drawings of the Co Co's  as early as possible
giving  feedback on design
(iii)During construction, giving feedback to them on what's actually being
laid down
(iv)Following construction, cycling the route and putting together a report
assessing the quality of the route.  Ie. Does the new facility make cycling
safer ?
(iV) Monitoring whether the proposed changes made in report are implemented.
This is how it works in theory.  Very often in reality, given our stretched
resources, not all of the above points are (adequately) done.
No-one is to blame for this - it's just that there are alot of routes to
survey assess and monitor and everyone is busy with other things in their
lives.
I would suggest at the next DCC meeting that one of main agenda items should
be how to formalise the above process to ensure that we end up with well
designed and constructed Cycle Facilities, and explore the other points
raised in the correspondence.
Damien O Tuama


________________________________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com

Greetings all.
1. Regarding the correspondence on the standard of cycle facilities being
built / already built, the way the DCC has tried to work on this is as
follows:
(i)Alert the Co. Co. that a particular route is hazardous and recommend that
it be made cycle friendly, more often than not with the construction of
cycle facilities.  We would give specific details regarding dangerous points
/ and how to improve it... - particularly during the public consultatoin
period.
(ii)get to see the design drawings of the Co Co's  as early as possible
giving  feedback on design
(iii)During construction, giving feedback to them on what's actually being
laid down
(iv)Following construction, cycling the route and putting together a report
assessing the quality of the route.  Ie. Does the new facility make cycling
safer ?
(iV) Monitoring whether the proposed changes made in report are implemented.
This is how it works in theory.  Very often in reality, given our stretched
resources, not all of the above points are (adequately) done.
No-one is to blame for this - it's just that there are alot of routes to
survey assess and monitor and everyone is busy with other things in their
lives.
I would suggest at the next DCC meeting that one of main agenda items should
be how to formalise the above process to ensure that we end up with well
designed and constructed Cycle Facilities, and explore the other points
raised in the correspondence.
Damien O Tuama


________________________________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com

Dear All,
Dr. Ken Boyle, one of the organisers of DIT's Urban Walking Experience, has
asked that someone from the DCC give a short presentation on what the DCC's
vision of Dublin is /its aims / current campaigns.  It'll be at 11am on this
Sat's morning.
Eamon is away, I'm working all day Saturday, Rachel & Brendan are away too.
Would anyone be availbale to represent us at this event - details as per
Daithi o h-Ealaithe's email.  Please give me a ring if you can as soon as
possible - best no. is 087-2840799.
Thanks, Damien


________________________________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com

Hi
It might be of relevance on this issue and the wider issue of bicycle
use that in the last month the British Medical Journal has run two
editorials calling for the imposition of 20 mph speed limits in british
cities.  Something which is still not provided for in this country - more
ammo to throw at them.
http://www.bmj.com/cgi/content/full/320/7243/1160
Regards
Shane Foran
Galway Psycho-Cyclist


This e mail list is starting to get interesting isnt it!  ;-)


Date sent:       Thu, 18 May 2000 06:04:23 -0700 (PDT)
From:            Damien O Tuama <damodublin@...>
Subject:         [Dublin-Cycling] Saturday 20th Urban Walking Exp
To:              dublin-cycling@egroups.com

[ Double-click this line for list subscription options ]

Dear All,
Dr. Ken Boyle, one of the organisers of DIT's Urban Walking Experience, has
asked that someone from the DCC give a short presentation on what the DCC's
vision of Dublin is /its aims / current campaigns.  It'll be at 11am on this
Sat's morning.
Eamon is away, I'm working all day Saturday, Rachel & Brendan are away too.
Would anyone be availbale to represent us at this event - details as per
Daithi o h-Ealaithe's email.  Please give me a ring if you can as soon as
possible - best no. is 087-2840799.
Thanks, Damien


________________________________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com


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Dun Laoghaire Rathdown County Council has announced a scheme of
Strategic Policy Committees.  More information is available at
<http://www.dlrcoco.ie/spc/newsch1.htm>.

It looks like someting the DCC should consider becoming
involved in.  Submissions are due by 12 June 2000.

Niall O'Reilly

Shane Foran wrote:

> This e mail list is starting to get interesting isnt it!  ;-)

It sure is Shane.  We have to keep up the good work.  I'm sure you are
doing great stuff for cyclists in Galway.

-Brian

Hi
Re: the Cycle Facilities Manual.

On Mon, 15 May 2000 19:21:15 +0100 Niall O'Reilly wrote
>South Dublin and Dun Laoghaire
>Rathdown County Councils have used their resources to >implement
what are clearly intended as "cycle facilities", but >without apparently
taking into account either the practical >needs of cyclists or the
recommendations contained in the >document entitled "Provision of
Cycle Facilities -- National >Manual for Urban Areas".

And on Wed, 17 May  2000

<snip>
  >I find it objectional that my tax monies are wasted in
>the construction of unsuitable "cycle facilities", with no benefit t
<snip>
>given to involving not only the Garda Commissioner, but also
> the Ombudsman and even the Comptroller and Auditor General.
<end>

I think it is important to bear in mind that the "National Cycle Facilities
Manual" may itself  yet be the subject of a complaint to the
Comptroller and Audititor General (or whoever has jurisdiction).  I am
paraphrasing from a reply on the issue that was sent to Minister Noel
Dempsey last May. (1999)

Re cycling facilities manual

" We have had an opportunity to review a draft of this
document........we found it to be based on current Dutch practice. .....
>
  The Dutch cycle facilities system cannot be viewed as a "stand
alone" feature and cannot be viewed in isolation from Dutch
geography, Dutch town planning and land use policy, Dutch public
transport policy or Dutch traffic law and speed management policies.
As such the document we viewed is unlikely to be of relevence to, or
applicable within, the Irish situation.
>
There is the additional consideration that there is little resemblance
between the bicycle types in general use in the Netherlands and the
bicycle types in general use in this country.  The implication being
that a National Design Manual has been drafted and circulated on the
basis of the wrong design vehicle.  The document we viewed refers to
cycle speeds of between 15 and 20 kph whereas for the type of cycle
traffic found in this country speeds of 30 kph (20 mph) must be
assumed."
>
To date Mr. Dempsey has apparently been unable to provide a
response. Perhaps the Comptroller and Auditor General may be able
to provide a response instead.

Shane Foran
Galway Cycling Campaign

(Back in action after a long break)

This story is courtesy of Uncle Barn:
http://www.bikehighway.com/

-Brian

ENEL, the Italian national electricity utility, in cooperation with
Ticino Park (in Lombardy) has transformed the embankments of its canals
into bike paths (picture
attached).

The 15km stretch from Vizzola Ticino to Turbigo is also sign posted and
equipped with picnic areas, etc.

The inauguration of the new bike paths, which fully integrate with
pre-existing paths in the park, was highlighted by a special train
carrying more than 350 cyclists
and their bikes to Turbigo.

Bicycle advocacy groups all around the world could use the Ticino bike
paths initiative as an example for similar projects.

Re The DTO's Facilities Manual
Hi
We had review group yesterday to go over progress on various
issues- it turns out we did get a response from Noel Dempsey's office
(Dated October 4th but we didn’t get it until February via the
Ombudsman at which stage it got lost in our files (cringe)).  Anyway
their response is that the document they produced is not exclusively
based on Dutch practice because it is also similar to aspects of the
Sustrans guidelines from the UK.  (Oh so it must be ok then!) The real
howler is the last line

"The DOELG and the DTO both had a major input into the contents of
the manual and the DOELG had a specific role to ensure that the
manual was in accordance with the Irish traffic regulations and in that
context is relevant to Irish conditions"

This of course is the exact opposite of what they tried to do - they in
fact "bought in" an out of date Dutch manual and then tried to warp
and contort our traffic regulations to fit it - in the process making a
"sows ear" out of a "silk purse" - god bless the civil service!  A reply
has been drafted but we may sit on it for a while -there is too much
other stuff going on locally anyway at the moment.  Also at this stage
we may want to stop wasting time with the flunkies and try to get a
direct meeting with Bobby Molloy on this one.

I'm appending the (I stress it’s a draft) response anyway.
Regards
Shane Foran GCC

PS The pressing local issue referred to below was Miriam breaking her
leg in a skiing accident!

#############Draft Response####################

Miriam Sheerin
Secretary

Mr. Noel Dempsey T.D.
Minister for the Environment

Re: Cycle Facilities Design Manual

Dear Sir
	 I write on behalf of the committee with regard to your letter of 4th
of October regarding the above manual. This letter was only received
by us in February and more pressing local issues precluded a prompt
reply at that time.  We note your statement that the manual contains
layouts similar if not identical to the Sustrans guidelines in the UK.  If
we might be permitted to point out that this is precisely the problem.
A leading expert witness on cycling accidents in the UK has singled
out Sustrans style recreational paths for particular criticism regarding
their lack of safety and poor accident records .  We have reviewed the
Sustrans manual ourselves and find it too contains designs that have
been shown in other countries to increase the rate and severity, in
terms of death and injury, of both car / bicycle and cyclist / cyclist
collisions.

To return to the previously raised issue of the "design user" of these
so called "facilities".  In the case of the Sustrans style leisure network
the design user is a "sensible unaccompanied twelve year old" .  This
issue is raised in a 1996 review from a standard industry journal (and
presumably available to your office).

"The fast cycle commuter must not be driven off the highway onto a
route that is designed for a twelve year old or a novice on a leisure trip
because if that happens, the whole attempt to enlarge the use of the
bicycle will have failed" .

We find your letter confirms our previous views regarding the lack of
"relevance" or "application" of the DTO's Cycle Facilities Design
Manual. We note that rather than drafting a manual that was designed
to be compatible with Irish traffic law and conditions an attempt was
made instead (SI 274/98, 273/98), to "fit" the Irish regulations to what
is by your own admission, a foreign design manual, based on a
different legal system.  It remains our view that these "cycle track"
regulations (SI 274/98, 273/98) are demonstrably incompatible with
both the normal traffic regulations and the governing legislation. We
also remain unclear as to what provisions of the constitution or the
governing legislation would actually give you any authority to make
regulations seeking to coerce private citizens into behaviours that are
known to be associated with increased risk of death and injury.

Yours Sincerely,



References
1)  An Open Letter to John Grimsahw (Sustrans) : John Franklin 1999.
2) The National Cycle Network, Guidelines and Practical Details,
Sustrana 1997
3) M.N. Fargher, Proceeding of the Institute of Civil Engineers,
Transport,  117 Aug, 1996

Hi
Just to keep people posted -I'm appending the final draft of the
response that was sent to the Dept of Env (DOELG) regarding the
DTO's "cycle facilities" manual.  For further reading John Franklins
letter to Sustrans re casualties on cycle paths is available here.

http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/quinze/digest/

Shane Foran GCC


############ final draft ######################

Mr. Noel Dempsey T.D.
Minister for the Environment

Re: Cycle Facilities Design Manual

Dear Sir
	 I write on behalf of the committee with regard to your letter of 4th
of October regarding the above manual. This letter was only received
by us in February and more pressing local issues precluded a prompt
reply at that time.  We note your statement that the manual contains
layouts similar if not identical to the Sustrans guidelines in the UK.  If
we might be permitted to point out that this is precisely the problem.
A leading expert witness on cycling accidents in the UK has singled
out Sustrans style recreational paths for particular criticism regarding
their lack of safety and poor accident records .  We note that the
Sustrans manual is merely offered as additional to, and does not
supplant, the primary document: Cycle Friendly Infrastructure-
Guidelines for Planning and Design.  This would seem to confirm our
view that an attempt has been made to adopt selected designs
whether Dutch or British, while simultaneously disregarding the wider
context and legal frameworks within which they are intended to be
used.

To return to the previously raised issue of the "design user" of these
so called "facilities".  In the case of the Sustrans style leisure network
the design user is a "sensible unaccompanied twelve year old" .  This
issue is raised in a 1996 review from a standard industry journal (and
presumably available to your office).

"The fast cycle commuter must not be driven off the highway onto a
route that is designed for a twelve year old or a novice on a leisure trip
because if that happens, the whole attempt to enlarge the use of the
bicycle will have failed" .

We find your letter confirms our previous views regarding the lack of
"relevance" or "application" of the DTO's Cycle Facilities Design
Manual. It remains our view that the accompanying "cycle track"
regulations (SI 274/98, 273/98) are demonstrably incompatible with
both the normal traffic regulations and the governing legislation. We
also remain unclear as to what provisions of the constitution or the
governing legislation would actually give you any authority to make
regulations seeking to coerce private citizens into behaviours that are
known to be associated with increased risk of death and injury.
Yours Sincerely,

We would like to remind you of this upcoming event.

DCC Monthly Meeting

Date: Monday, June 12, 2000
Time: 8:00PM CEST (GMT+02:00)

Regular Monthly Meeting of Dublin Cycling Campaign in the City
Arts Centre, Moss Street, Dublin 2 (at Matt Talbot Bridge. All
welcome. Be prepared to get a task!

Hi all

Once again the automatic reminder sent out to all members by eGroups
regarding the
meeting on monday says 8pm - it's actually 7.30pm

I thought I had changed the robots batteries

Sorry for the confusion.

Bs

Hi,

Here are some provisional agenda items for the meeting tomorrrow (June
12, 2000).  If you would like to submit more topics, send them to the
group or myself as soon as possible, or come along to the meeting
tomorrow.

Best,
-Brian

--BEGIN--

Agenda Items For Next Meeting
1. Report on DCC's participation in Dublin Bay 40K

2. Cycling facilities at Dublin Airport

3. The Urban Walking Experience Conference/Forum at Temple Bar Gallery
May 19th & 20th.  Did DCC give a presentation?

4. Dun Laoghaire Rathdown County Council has announced a scheme of
Strategic Policy Committees.  More information is available at
http://www.dlrcoco.ie/spc/newsch1.htm.  Perhaps this is something the
DCC might want to get involved in.  Submissions due by June 12.
Thanks to Niall O' Reilly for pointing this one out.

5. Formalising process for getting involved in design of new cycle
routes or changing existing ones.
Below is the text of an email sent to group on 18 May by Damien O Tuama
about this issue.  It was in response to a mail from Niall O' Reilly
expressing concern on this issue.

Greetings all.
1. Regarding the correspondence on the standard of cycle facilities
being built / already built, the way the DCC has tried to work on this
is as follows:
(i)Alert the Co. Co. that a particular route is hazardous and recommend
that it be made cycle friendly, more often than not with the
construction of cycle facilities.  We would give specific details
regarding dangerous points / and how to improve it... - particularly
during the public consultatoin period.
(ii)get to see the design drawings of the Co Co's  as early as possible
giving  feedback on design
(iii)During construction, giving feedback to them on what's actually
being laid down
(iv)Following construction, cycling the route and putting together a
report assessing the quality of the route.  Ie. Does the new facility
make cycling safer ?
(iV) Monitoring whether the proposed changes made in report are
implemented. This is how it works in theory.  Very often in reality,
given our stretched resources, not all of the above points are
(adequately) done. No-one is to blame for this - it's just that there
are alot of routes to survey assess and monitor and everyone is busy
with other things in their lives.
I would suggest at the next DCC meeting that one of main agenda items
should be how to formalise the above process to ensure that we end up
with well designed and constructed Cycle Facilities, and explore the
other points raised in the correspondence.

--END--

Re: Casualties on "cycle facilities" etc

Hi
I have just realised that the URL to John Franklins web page that I
posted previously doesnt work (Sorry!) .  Try this one instead.

http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/quinze/cycling.htm

Follow the Cycle Digest link for the letter to Sustrans etc.

Regards

Shane Foran GCC

Hi everyone,

We should try to ensure that we have some kind of formal role in relation
to cycle facilities design standards with the Department.  They will
essentially just ignore criticism unless they see solutions.

I would be interested in seeing more details about the issues Franklin
mentions.  We could then seek to address particular issues in the
facilities one by one.  I have a problem with his analysis.  Cycle
facilities will often show higher accident rates because they are used by
the very young and inexperienced.  That doesn't mean they are therefore
more dangerous.  The fact that few pedestrians are killed on motorways
doesn't make them safe.  Often making a road more dangerous for pedestrians
and cyclists can reduce accident rates because it discourages people from
using it.  (see Davies, Death on the Streets).  The idea that safety =
accident rates is wrong.

  But there are definitely dangerous cycle facility designs and we do have
them in Dublin.

Maybe we should start with design issues where we are definitely all agreed
- roundabouts and slip roads.  We now have a situation on the motorway
junctions around Dublin where slip roads are being built which lead off the
motorway and appear on the left of cyclists who have just travelled through
the roundabout.  Terrifying and dangerous.

I know Shane has done good research on the roundabouts.  Maybe we can take
up these two issues?

David




At 13:03 09/06/00 +0000, Shane Foran wrote:
>Hi
>Just to keep people posted -I'm appending the final draft of the
>response that was sent to the Dept of Env (DOELG) regarding the
>DTO's "cycle facilities" manual.  For further reading John Franklins
>letter to Sustrans re casualties on cycle paths is available here.
>
>http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/quinze/digest/
>
>Shane Foran GCC
>
>
>############ final draft ######################
>
>Mr. Noel Dempsey T.D.
>Minister for the Environment
>
>Re: Cycle Facilities Design Manual
>
>Dear Sir
> I write on behalf of the committee with regard to your letter of 4th
>of October regarding the above manual. This letter was only received
>by us in February and more pressing local issues precluded a prompt
>reply at that time.  We note your statement that the manual contains
>layouts similar if not identical to the Sustrans guidelines in the UK.  If
>we might be permitted to point out that this is precisely the problem.
>A leading expert witness on cycling accidents in the UK has singled
>out Sustrans style recreational paths for particular criticism regarding
>their lack of safety and poor accident records .  We note that the
>Sustrans manual is merely offered as additional to, and does not
>supplant, the primary document: Cycle Friendly Infrastructure-
>Guidelines for Planning and Design.  This would seem to confirm our
>view that an attempt has been made to adopt selected designs
>whether Dutch or British, while simultaneously disregarding the wider
>context and legal frameworks within which they are intended to be
>used.
>
>To return to the previously raised issue of the "design user" of these
>so called "facilities".  In the case of the Sustrans style leisure network
>the design user is a "sensible unaccompanied twelve year old" .  This
>issue is raised in a 1996 review from a standard industry journal (and
>presumably available to your office).
>
>"The fast cycle commuter must not be driven off the highway onto a
>route that is designed for a twelve year old or a novice on a leisure trip
>because if that happens, the whole attempt to enlarge the use of the
>bicycle will have failed" .
>
>We find your letter confirms our previous views regarding the lack of
>"relevance" or "application" of the DTO's Cycle Facilities Design
>Manual. It remains our view that the accompanying "cycle track"
>regulations (SI 274/98, 273/98) are demonstrably incompatible with
>both the normal traffic regulations and the governing legislation. We
>also remain unclear as to what provisions of the constitution or the
>governing legislation would actually give you any authority to make
>regulations seeking to coerce private citizens into behaviours that are
>known to be associated with increased risk of death and injury.
>Yours Sincerely,
>
>
>
>
>------------------------------------------------------------------------
>Need Mo?
>We have it.
>Motivation.  Momentum.  Motion.
>http://click.egroups.com/1/5160/0/_/20348/_/960552577/
>------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
>To Unsubscribe, send a message to:
>
>Dublin-Cycling-Unsubscribe@Egroups.com
>
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>
>DCC c/o 12 Millmount Grove, Dublin 14. EMAIL dcc@...
>
>DCC Forum http://network54.com/Hide/Forum/32834
>
>
>
Daithí Ó hÉalaithe  / David Healy
54 Páirc Éabhóra, Beann Éadair, Co. Bh.Á.C., Éire
tel 353 1 8324087

Scii kaj ne agi estas ne jam scii.

To know and not to act is not yet to know.

Friends of the Irish Environment
http://homepage.eircom.net/~ireland/

forwarded by B sheehan

>Delivered-To: dcc@...
>From: "shortman" <shortmanconsultants@...>
>To: <dcc@...>
>Subject: I: Holiday houses for rent in Rome in the via Appia area
>Date: Fri, 16 Jun 2000 15:42:36 +0200
>X-MSMail-Priority: Normal
>X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3110.5
>X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3110.3
>
>    Following our message herunder, we apologise for  the mistake but the
>correct URL is www.shortman.it/holidayh.htm   -----Messaggio originale-----
>Da:  <shortmanconsultants@...>
>A:  dcc@...<dcc@...>
>Data:  giovedì 15 giugno 2000 1.50
>Oggetto: Holiday houses for  rent in Rome in the via Appia area
>
>  Dear fellow bikers,    this message is adressed to all bikers association
>in Europe  as a proposal for this summer and until the end of the year. A
>very interesting  bike tour in the eternal city. Look at the URL
>www.shortman.it/holiday to know more.  Thank you for your attention.
>Shortman

A warning about bike thefts from a rack in temple bar:

There have been a number of bike thefts recently from the rack located
on Essex St at the corner of Eustace St and just outside Bruno's
restaurant (staff door) -- despite the busy location. Yours truly lost
her bike last night, and this afternoon spotted two young lads acting
suspiciously around other bikes at the same rack. Reported them courtesy
of the phone at the nearby Photographic Archive, only to hear there's
been a spate of thefts there. So . . . you have been warned.

mmulvihill