With the usual apologies for the inordinate delay, I am pleased to
announce the availability of Volume IV of the collected Quettar.

This volume contains issues 31 to 40, published in 1988-1990, and
includes many substantial articles.

It is available from
http://www.lulu.com/product/paperback/quettar-volume-iv/15360487


--
The University of Edinburgh is a charitable body, registered in
Scotland, with registration number SC005336.

Hi Elflingers, I'm here again! This time I want you to translate a song into
Quenya, the link is here:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aIuk5DvJYdQ
Please make a good translation, I'd love to sing this song in Quenya!

Thanks in advance!

Does anyone have the annotated score for TTT: Complete recordings? I've found
links to Fellowship and ROTK but I can't find a link to this one.

Today there was a short feature about artlangs on the
Swedish public radio channel P1. Mostly sensible, and
no major bloopers except for the announcer mixing up
Star Trek and Star Wars! They played most of Tolkien's
recording of "Namárie/Galadriel's lament". I learnt two
things which I didn't know before, namely that Burgess
had a background in linguistics and that Whorf wrote an
SF story involving mind control through language some
time before he started studying linguistics.
Unfortunately they gave the impression that all
artlangs (nothing similar to this term was mentioned,
BTW) would be tied to SF or fantasy fiction. There will
be follow-up features on individual languages including
Quenya and Klingon in the following weeks. Those of you
who can read/understand Swedish can find more info at

<http://sverigesradio.se/sida/default.aspx?programid=411>

It will probably also be possible to download to the
program(s) as an MP3 file at

<http://sverigesradio.se/sida/laddaner.aspx?programid=411>

Unfortunately I don't know just how long it will be
before they publish the MP3 files.

/bpj

P.S. Apologies to those of you who get this cross-posted,
and to those of you who are/know Swedish but get this in
English!

Mellyn!

     The webpages about Omentielva Cantea have just been updated
with news about programme and participants. Look at
<http://www.omentielva.com/next.htm>.
     Thanks to a grant from Sociedad Tolkien Española we have been
able to invite Arden Smith as guest of honour, and two of the
talks will be by him.

     The conference is in Valencia, Spain, 11 - 14 August. You can
register online at <http://www.omentielva.com/register.htm>.

	 A lelya Valencianna!

		 Beregond

Thank-you Helge!

The class is going quite well, so far. We started the semester in February with
21 students, and now, on the second to last chapter have only 6. It's a record
for the class, because before the semester system, only one person made it this
far, and I was teaching her in person!

I think it's important to note that my little textbook is far from perfect -
I've been finding (English) spelling errors all over the place and found a lot
of grammatical errors/typos in the homework assignments. Also, some of the
theories are looking more and more shaky every time I look at them; and I've
been trying to find the source of some of the Neo-Sindarin grammar that smells
like Fanon more than Canon.

Anyone know the origin of Anin/Ai arguments? I remember reading an article on
it, but now I can't seem to find it.

Also, the theories about Interrogative pronouns are very old, but still used by
everyone. Has anyone done any recent research on them? Where is the article that
established these so firmly into the Neo-Sindarin world? (Wasn't it written by
Ryszard Derdzinski?)

Fiona

--- In elfling@yahoogroups.com, "Helge K. Fauskanger" <helge.fauskanger@...>
wrote:
>
>
>       In the same digest that contained my own initial message to the
>       "Finish Fun" thread, I also got the announcement below, which
>       should not be overlooked as we discuss the joys of pronouncing
>       double stops. This seems to be a worthwhile project which does
>       deserve the support of whatever community we have.
>
>
>
>       While I have only glanced over some of the initial lessons, it is
>       clear that the author has put some effort into it.  Updated,
>       reasonably reliable course material for beginners is desperately
>       needed in this field.
>
>
> - HKF
>
>
>        > Posted by: "dreamingfifi" elvenswordsmith@...
>      
<mailto:elvenswordsmith@...?Subject=%20Re%3A%20Sindarin%20Textbook%20in%20the%20\
works>
>         elvenswordsmith <http://profiles.yahoo.com/elvenswordsmith>
>
>
>         Sun Jan 23, 2011 4:20 am (PST)
>
> http://your-sindarin-textbook.realelvish.net
> <http://your-sindarin-textbook.realelvish.net>
>
> I'm especially looking for scrutiny on the chapters about syntax,
> pronouns, and verbs.
>
> Thank-you in advance for giving this a look.
>
> Fiona
>

Working from Noldorin, we can guess that in Sindarin, the numbers proceed the
nouns they modify, and sometimes act like pronouns and replace nouns all
together. This behavior strikes me as quite similar to quantitative determiners.

So the question is: would a number take the place of a definite article, or
would it work beside it? If so, what do we do about mutation?

I'm in favor of the proximity rule - the number would be mutated instead of the
noun because it proceeds it - but what about numbers modifying direct objects?

What if a quantitative determinate does cause mutation?

In Quenya, how do numbers behave, in comparison?

What about in Welsh?

Hi Elfling Community,

I made a website that displays some of my view of the Middle-earth Legendarium.

There's a list of language correspondences (e.g. Dunlendish and Old Irish) here:

https://sites.google.com/site/endorenya/secrets-of-middle-earth

best wishes,
Travis

Hello,
My name is James Thain I have lurked on this list for some time. I was thinking
about Quenya, and this errant thought popped into my head.

I know that there have been many neologisms invented for Quenya over the years,
but with all the new Tolkien invented words that have come out since people
started using Quenya. What  has been the fate of those neologisms that coincided
in meaning to the new Tolkien words?

My own thought was that any phonologically correct words could be kept as
synonyms for the Tolkien words thus enriching the whole community. What do
others on this list think?

Thanks for reading, I look forward to your replies. :-)

James

Hi! Can I go as a simple spectator (not showing any document)?

--- In elfling@yahoogroups.com, "Beregond, Anders Stenström" <beregond@...>
wrote:
>
> Mellyn!
>
>     The webpages about Omentielva Cantea have just been updated
> with news about programme and participants. Look at
> <http://www.omentielva.com/next.htm>.
>     Thanks to a grant from Sociedad Tolkien Española we have been
> able to invite Arden Smith as guest of honour, and two of the
> talks will be by him.
>
>     The conference is in Valencia, Spain, 11 - 14 August. You can
> register online at <http://www.omentielva.com/register.htm>.
>
>  A lelya Valencianna!
>
> 	 Beregond
>

Now that I think on it, should I sing the aforementioned Quenya version of the
song on Omentielva Cantea (if I go and if it's finally made)?

--- In elfling@yahoogroups.com, "rikkuras_del_mas_alla"
<rikkuras_del_mas_alla@...> wrote:
>
> Hi Elflingers, I'm here again! This time I want you to translate a song into
Quenya, the link is here:
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aIuk5DvJYdQ
> Please make a good translation, I'd love to sing this song in Quenya!
>
> Thanks in advance!
>

Your comparisons to the real world and theosophy are quite interesting, and your
America-based legendarium is, too. Keep the good work! :)

--- In elfling@yahoogroups.com, "traversetravis" <traversetravis@...> wrote:
>
> Hi Elfling Community,
>
> I made a website that displays some of my view of the Middle-earth
Legendarium.
>
> There's a list of language correspondences (e.g. Dunlendish and Old Irish)
here:
>
> https://sites.google.com/site/endorenya/secrets-of-middle-earth
>
> best wishes,
> Travis
>

rikkuras_del_mas_alla wrote:
>
>
> Hi! Can I go as a simple spectator (not showing any document)?

     Of course; everyone who wishes to participate is welcome to
register (no later than 17 July).

	 Suilad,

		 Beregond

Mellyn!

     It is still possible to register for Omentielva Cantea, the
conference on Tolkien's invented languages that will take place
in Valencia, Spain, on 11 - 14 August 2011. But we have now set
17 July as the deadline for full registration.
     The full fee is 110 EUR (roughly 140 USD, 92 GBP), which includes
attendance, accomodation, all meals, and eventually the volume of
published proceedings.
     For a smaller fee, 25 EUR, you may register as a non-attending
participant. In this way you support the conference and you will get
a copy of the published proceedings.

     All information is on the website, which is continually updated;
keep an eye at <www.omentielva.com>.

	 A lelya Valencianna!

		 Beregond, Anders Stenström

I should like to draw the attention of the Elfling community to a novel
that first appeared in 1871: _ The Coming Race_ by Edward Bulwer Lytton
(also known as _Vril: The Power of the Coming Race_). The entire text is
available on several sites; here is one:

http://www.sacred-texts.com/atl/vril/index.htm

In this early example of science fiction, the narrator literally goes
underground and discovers a highly advanced non-human race (the
'Vril-ya') that have their own subterranean civilization, threatening to
one day emerge and supplant humanity (hence they are the 'Coming Race').
Certain occultists have been known to treat this novel as a factual account!

In chapter XII, the narrator elaborates on the language of the Vril-ya,
even to the point of sketching entire noun declensions (rather technical
stuff for a 'novel' -- imagine Gandalf or Aragorn suddenly delivering
long lectures on Quenya case endings!) Incidentally, chapter XII also
provides some charmingly obsolete musings on the evolution of languages
in general, referencing the ideas of certain perfectly real philologists
of the late 1800s.

Some of the Vril-ya words cited actually seem to have parallels in
Tolkien's languages! May he at some point have read Lytton's novel?

One example of a Vril-ya word:

  > Na (...) resembling (...) the Aryan root Nak, expressive of perishing
or destruction.

Compare the Quenya verb for 'kill, slay': _nahta-_ (older _nakta_, cf.
the pa.t. _nakante_). The root is supposed to be NDAK.

  > Koom, pronounced like the Welsh [!] Cwm, denotes something of
hollowness. Koom itself is a cave ...

In Tolkien's Etymologies, KUM means 'void', also yielding words for
'empty' (LR:365-6).

The Vril-ya word for 'man' is given as _an_. It is rather strikingly
similar to Adûnaic _anâ_ 'human being', _anû_ 'a male, man' (SD:434).

One of the declensions provided indidates that the dative form of this
_an_ is _ano_. However, we are told that the dative case actually also
serves as the genitive:

  > The genitive case with them is also obsolete; the dative supplies its
place: they say the House 'to' a Man, instead of the House 'of' a Man.

It may be noted that the dative-gentive _ano_ is formed with the same
ending as the Quenya genitive in _-o_!

In closing, the narrator of the novel concludes that the Vril-ya were
somehow exposed to Indo-European ('Indo-Germanic' or 'Aryan'!) languages
before their civilisation went underground:

  > The philologist will have seen from the above how much the language
of the Vril-ya is akin to the Aryan or Indo-Germanic; but, like all
languages, it contains words and forms in which transfers from very
opposite sources of speech have been taken. The very title of Tur, which
they give to their supreme magistrate, indicates theft from a tongue
akin to the Turanian.

Turanian or not, in Tolkien's Elvish TUR is likewise a root assosciated
with political power. At various conceptual stages we have words like
_Tur_ 'King' (QL:96), _turo_ 'master, victor, lord' (LR:395) and _tur-_
'master, conquer, win, dominate' (PE17:206). Also compare Black Speech
_durb-_ (durbatulûk, 'to rule them all').

Of course, the Greek word for an absolute ruler, _turannos_ (cf. English
'tyrant') is very likely relevant here, at least as far as Tolkien's
inspirations go.

I don't think we have enough material to definitely conclude that
Tolkien is influenced by Lytton's novel. Certainly some commentators
have been too eager to see real-world inspirations for this or that word
(Tolkien himself dismissed any efforts to connect the name 'Sauron' to
the Greek word for lizard, for instance). One may be too eager in the
quest for parallels when comparing Tolkien's languages to other
_invented_ tongues as well.

Tolkien and Lytton could simply be drawing on the same Indo-European
elements. Yet the parallels are, at the very least, amusing to notice!

- HKF

Thanks to Damien Bador's kind comments and corrections, here is a new version of
my Sindarin wordlist from PE17 :

http://lambenore.free.fr/downloads/PE17_S.pdf

DG

Some comments:

- _+Airon_ in PE17:149 seems to be archaic Quenya, since it has _ai_ for _ae_, a
cognate of S. _gaeron_. You cite it as Quenya for comparison, but also in the
Sindarin list.

- The etymology of _alfirin_ from PIRI 'close eyes, blink, wink' in PE17:146 is
a different one from 'not dying' in PE17:101.

- _*Challonas_ for _Challonnas_ seems to be a typo.

- Typo 'belied' for 'belief' in the gloss of _astor_.

- _Beth_ in _agarfant beth_ is not really the plural 'words', as your gloss
reads; Sindarin just uses the singular _peth_ in the general sense 'speech,
talking' (as also in _athrabeth_), similar to the English expressions 'give the
word' or 'what's the word?'.

- _Elden(n)_ must be a typo for _edlen(n)_.

- I believe that S. _oew_ (PE17:170) should be glossed 'crime', just like Q.
_ongwe_. The gloss 'an evil deed' seems to refer to _okma_. If formulated as a
sentence, rather than in Tolkien's stenographic style, the entry could read like
that:
"S. _oew_ derives from _ok-ma_, literally 'an evil deed' and is the cognate of
Q. _ongwe_, meaning 'crime'".

- _Úmedin_ and _úmel_ seem to be given by Tolkien to show where the lenited
forms _úvedin_ and _úvel_ come from. Remember that it was his aim to write a
commentary to the LotR for the general public which wouldn't be familiar with
the concept of mutation. Listing these forms just like that is somehow rather
misleading.

- S. _tewin_ in PE17:115 might be the plural of _tawen_, but it might be an
alternative form of the adjective just as well; just compare _firin_ from
PE17:101 for an _in_-adjective.

Good morning,

I am not a real die hard Tolkien fan, I read just The hobbit, The lord of the
rings, and The silmarillion.
About one week ago I was tasked with preparing a geeky leaflet for a projection
of The lord of the rings, and I wanted to include a few sentences in quenya; now
the obsession has taken over I'm halfway through Mr Fauskanger's course
(henceforward F).

After realising with much surprise that neo-quenya is, apparently, a quickly
changing language, I wondered if the excellent course from 2003 is still up to
date and gave a very quick look at Mr Renk's 2008 course (R); while I didn't
find any major discrepancy at first sight, before going deeper with the study I
want to know if I can go on with the 2003 course or I had better change horse
and start the newer one.

I understand that the courses are just your educated best guesses, so I would
not be upset upon finding some differences in your interpretations, but my
question is:
are there differences based on new material appeared between 2003 and 2008 that
make (R) preferable? Or, better, does Fauskanger still stands by (F) as his
current best guess at what a neo-quenya grammar might be, or he himself prefers
(R), for it includes material which was not available to him in 2003?

As I am on the topic, I will state a few opinions on the structure of the two
courses, hoping that my words will not be taken as criticism.
Though harder to follow, I prefer the analysis of sources found in (F), as it
makes clearer to what extent the rules are found in Tolkien or extrapolated. On
the other hand, I liked very much the short narratives found at the beginning of
Renk's chapters: while I'm doing all the exercises in (F), the king and the
queen's common activities are hardly compelling.
I also like that (R) includes some material on the tengwar script.
I understand that it has stayed out of (F) for simplicity’s sake, but, to me
at least, the tengwar script constitutes a great part of the enticement  I get
for the language, and I still haven't found an organic treatment of quenya
tengwar orthography as good as R or F are for the grammar, though the subject is
much smaller and simpler. I want, by the way, to thank Fauskanger for marking
clearly in his quettaparma which words are to be spelt with Súle or Noldo.

At last a "technical" question about spelling:
I understand that, when writing diphthongs, one puts the theta for the first
vowel above Yanta or Úre, and does not split the two vowels putting the first
above the preceding consonant and the second above the short carrier. What
happens then if the preceding consonant is an R?
It is not completely clear to me whether the difference between Rómen and Ã"re
is purely orthographic or it is  phonetic.
In words like _rauca_ (demon) or _raica_ (crooked), should I use Ã"re, because
it does not carry any theta, or Rómen, because it is followed by a vowel sound?
And what about _hraia_ (difficult), where the R derives from a different sound?

And also, medial Hs other than from hw (Hwesta), hy (Hyarmen with double dots)
and ht (Aha Tinco) are to be spelt with Hyarmen or Aha?


Thank you very much.
Francesco Veneziano

Roman Raush wrote :
> - _Úmedin_ and _úmel_ seem to be given by Tolkien to show where the  lenited
>forms _úvedin_ and _úvel_ come from. Remember that it was his  aim to write a
>commentary to the LotR for the general public which  wouldn't be familiar with
>the concept of mutation. Listing these forms  just like that is somehow rather
>misleading.

I have kept all those forms, indicating the lenited ones.

> - S. _tewin_ in PE17:115 might be the plural of _tawen_, but it might be  an
>alternative form of the adjective just as well; just compare _firin_  from
>PE17:101 for an _in_-adjective.

I have modified the entry for _tawen_ and added an entry for _tewin_.

Thank you very much. The file has been updated.

Cordially,

DG

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Francesco Veneziano wrote:


  > I am not a real die hard Tolkien fan, I read just The hobbit, The
lord of the rings, and The silmarillion.

I think that is a perfectly decent basis. Some people who call themselves
Tolkien fans never got as far as the Silmarillion. (Some, indeed, never got past
the Jackson movies...)

> About one week ago I was tasked with preparing a geeky leaflet for a
projection of The lord of the rings, and I wanted to include a few sentences in
quenya; now the obsession has taken over I'm halfway through Mr Fauskanger's
course (henceforward F).
As the author of the course (henceforward 'I'), I appreciate your interest.

> After realising with much surprise that neo-quenya is, apparently, a quickly
changing language, I wondered if the excellent course from 2003 is still up to
date and gave a very quick look at Mr Renk's 2008 course (R); while I didn't
find any major discrepancy at first sight, before going deeper with the study I
want to know if I can go on with the 2003 course or I had better change horse
and start the newer one.

Well, important material did appear in 2007 (Parma 17 and VT 49 – sadly this was
apparently the last gasp of Vinyar Tengwar, but one can argue that it did at
least go out with a bang rather than a whimper, finally presenting vital
material relating to the Quenya pronoun table and the verb 'to be'). We have had
a couple of Parmar since, and they are in their way interesting enough, but they
describe the deep structure of Tolkien's Elvish rather than dealing with the
kind of issues that often trouble Neo-Quenya writers.

> are there differences based on new material appeared between 2003 and 2008
that make (R) preferable? Or, better, does Fauskanger still stands by (F) as his
current best guess at what a neo-quenya grammar might be, or he himself prefers
(R), for it includes material which was not available to him in 2003?

I haven't studied Renk's course so I can only speak for myself. I could indeed
write a somewhat better Quenya course today, and I have been trying to update
the existing course. At the same time, I still hope the existing text is more
useful than downright misleading.
Some revisions: I would now recommend -lte rather than -nte as the ending for
'they' (though both are valid). My discussion of past tense formations turns out
to be somewhat simplistic. I tend to let all A-stems go like _ortane_, resulting
in forms like _caitane_ as the past tense of _caita-_ 'lie'. The correct form
should be _caine_, since it turns out that this verb belongs to a class of verbs
that omits _ta_ in the past tense.

Since _orta-_ is glossed 'rise, raise' in the Etymologies, I assumed (I think
reasonably) that its past tense _ortane_ (known from Namárie) could also cover
both 'rose' and 'raised'. Now we know that this verb has a distinct intranstive
past tense form, _oronte_, so a sentence like 'the queen arose' must be _i tári
oronte_ rather than _i tári ortane_ (which can only mean 'the queen raised
[something else]').

The form _oronte_ belongs to a class of verbs that I have sometimes (privately)
referred to as the 'extended' verbs, since their past tenses are formed from a
longer stem than the one synchronically existing in the language otherwise
(orot- rather than just ort-). They were poorly attested in 2003 and hence are
not adequately dealt with in my course. I do mention _oante_ as a 'peculiar'
past tense of _auta-_, but I don't put it into the larger context I would now
treat it within.

As regards numbers, I naively assumed English-style syntax with number + plural
noun. Now it is known that Tolkien would go for a more complex system, which I
believe I have at least described in my Quenyanna wordbook (see entries TWO,
THREE).

Regarding the case system we have not had any really major revelations since
2003. But we know now more about the 'partitive plural' in -li, since the final
(?) issue of VT happily included a note on that as well. I have written a
revised version of the Appendices to the course that I hope will be up on my
site this summer. There I try to include the new information.

> As I am on the topic, I will state a few opinions on the structure of the two
courses, hoping that my words will not be taken as criticism.

Believe me, there have been rather harsher exchanges in this field, and it takes
more to offend me than this ... :)

> Though harder to follow, I prefer the analysis of sources found in (F), as it
makes clearer to what extent the rules are found in Tolkien or extrapolated. On
the other hand, I liked very much the short narratives found at the beginning of
Renk's chapters: while I'm doing all the exercises in (F), the king and the
queen's common activities are hardly compelling.

No, I'm afraid that my exercises don't amount to any very interesting
'literature'! But I'm glad you are able to endure and even appreciate all my
ponderous discussions. Some of the grammatical rules I had to painstakingly
extract have since been directly confirmed (but as indicated above, some of them
have also turned out to be simplistic).

As for 'narratives', I don't offer any, but I understand that they could be very
useful. I have myself been learning some classical Greek by means of the
'Athenaze' books (Balme/Lawall), where each chapter starts with a portion of
Greek text that illustrates the grammar to be discussed: At first the texts are
very simple in style and content, and then they grow increasingly more complex
throughout the course. These texts add up to a continuous story of sorts,
describing the adventures of an Attic farmer and his family. I have wondered if
something similar could be done for Quenya.

> I also like that (R) includes some material on the tengwar script.
I understand that it has stayed out of (F) for simplicity's sake,

Indeed. But I would like to write something about it.

> At last a "technical" question about spelling: I understand that, when writing
diphthongs, one puts the theta for the first vowel above Yanta or úre, and does
not split the two vowels putting the first above the preceding consonant and the
second above the short carrier. What happens then if the preceding consonant is
an R? It is not completely clear to me whether the difference between Rómen and
Óre is purely orthographic or it is phonetic.

According to material published in the latest issue of Parma Eldalamberon, óre
was originally used for R developed from earlier D. It was still a somewhat
distinctive R-sound at the time the Tengwar were first devised (that is, distict
from Rómen, the fully trilled R that had been in the language ever since
Cuiviénen).
Later the two R-sounds merged. The letter that had once denoted 'R from D' did
not fall out of use, but neither was it distributed according to etymology (as
in the case of súle). Our examples would indicate that Óre is used for any R
that is not followed by a vowel in the same word. Otherwise, Rómen is used.
Whether this distribution is just a randomly selected convention of orthography,
or whether it hints at some distinction of pronunciation that may have existed
at some stage, is rather unclear. It seems that óre was once a weaker,
English-style R, and maybe the /r/ phoneme was realized as a weaker sound when
not followed by a vowel.

> In words like _rauca_ (demon) or _raica_ (crooked), should I use óre, because
it does not carry any theta, or Rómen, because it is followed by a vowel sound?

I would go with the pronunciation rather than the orthography. Hence rómen.

Sometimes Tolkien DOES place the first element of the dipthongs _ai_ and _au_
over the preceding consonant, so that _raica_ could begin with rómen with
A-tehta + yanwe just as well as rómen + yanwe with A-tehta. But the latter
spelling seems to be the more common.

> And what about _hraia_ (difficult), where the R derives from a different
sound?

My understanding is that _hr_ should always be spelt halla + rómen.

> And also, medial Hs other than from hw (Hwesta), hy (Hyarmen with double dots)
and ht (Aha Tinco) are to be spelt with Hyarmen or Aha?
One interesting revelation in the latest issue of Parma is that medial _ht_ is
to be spelt as calma with the stem extended both upwards and downwards. It is
not represented as aha + tinco as most of us would have conjectured. (Indeed I
hope I haven't made any people tattoo themselves with the wrong spelling ...)

- HKF

Thank you very much for your answers, I will go on hoping that the rest of the
material will be published soon.

> One interesting revelation in the latest issue of Parma is that medial _ht_ is
to be spelt as calma with the stem extended both upwards and downwards. It is
not represented as aha + tinco as most of us would have conjectured. (Indeed I
hope I haven't made any people tattoo themselves with the wrong spelling ...)

This is very interesting, and it was not mentioned anywhere on the internet. Is
it found in pre-LotR material?
Are there any other revelations about the tengwar script?


Regards,
Francesco Veneziano

--- In elfling@yahoogroups.com, "Helge K. Fauskanger" <helge.fauskanger@...>
wrote:
> One interesting revelation in the latest issue of Parma is that medial _ht_ is
to be spelt as calma with the stem extended both upwards and downwards. It is
not represented as aha + tinco as most of us would have conjectured. (Indeed I
hope I haven't made any people tattoo themselves with the wrong spelling ...)


I think it might be a little more complicated than that. What Tolkien refers to
is "the continued use of special single letters, such as Feänorian <extended
parma>, <extended calma>, probably originally [...] _pt_, _kt_ [...] Even the
loremasters represented PQ [= Quenya cirka VY 1300] <extended calma> by _ht_ in
recitation." (PE19:84)

We are thus dealing with an ancient use, and although "continued" it might not
have been essential for the mode that was used to write "Namárie". This is
further suggested by LR Appendix E, where Tolkien states that the extended
tengwar "were not needed in the languages of the Third Age that used this
script". Nor is there any mention of the extended forms in the note on Quenya
spelling, which after all covers such obscure uses as <lambe><umbar> for _lb_.

In my opinion any tattoos containing <aha><tinco> for _ht_ are still correct.

Yours,

Måns

Greetings,
I am new to the list, so please forgive me if this question has been asked
before. I did a search but did not find the answer I was seeking. This post also
does a comparison between Fauskanger's Quenya course and Thorsten Renk's as it
is where my confusion arises.

In Fauskanger's course, he points out two ways to make negation. The first uses
the negative verb UGU/UMU, the second uses the word lá. Renk, on the other hand,
suggests using the negative verb UA-. The Etymologies do not mention an UA- stem
that I can find. UGU/UMU is attested.

Have there been new developments that have led Renk to move from UGU/UMU to UA?

Thanks for your assistance,
Ithidriel

I realise it is too hard to memorise Quenya grammar without some practice, so I
want to try composing, or at least translating, something.
As first step, I thought I could find myself a Quenya name, and this effort
spawned a good deal of problems about phonetics and word-building.
Now, my name is Francesco (Italian), equivalent names are François in French
and Francis in English.
As first exercise, I ask what would be a phonetic conversion from Italian to
Quenya.
After all, when Latin was still the language of culture, but was not spoken any
more, most learned men would Latinise their names, and this was done
phonetically more often than not (I am aware of exceptions, of course),
especially if the name did not carry a meaning a meaning by its own.
But "Francesco" has some problems:
It starts with a consonant cluster, which is forbidden in Quenya; the starting
FR are two distinct consonants, the R is trilled.
The Italian A is the same as in Quenya, so no problem there.
Then we have NC, which are two distinct sounds, with the C being what wikipedia
calls "Voiceless palato-alveolar affricate" (!). The cluster sounds like the NCH
of Winchester, and it is another sound which does not occur in Queya.
No problem with the E, which is stressed.
The SC are two distinct sounds, like the SK of "ask"; is this a possible
cluster?
And again no problem for the final O.
How this name would have been assimilated into Quenya? I have absolutely no
clue. Rancéso? Rancesco? Rahesco?...

Trying to translate the etymology, instead, I found that the name comes (through
Latin) from some sort of Frank-isk, an ethnical adjective relating to the tribe
of Franks, which in their language meant "Free man" (Some other sources claim
that they were called Franks after the name of the axe of a special shape they
used, but Isidore of Seville asserts it is the axe which took its name from the
people, and though he is not renown for the accuracy of his etymologies, he is
always better than a couple of nondescript websites).

Now, for "free", I found _ranya_, _aranya_, _léra_, _mirima_; any comment on
these words? Different meanings?
I was especially pleased to find that _Mirimor_ is a name for the Teleri, making
it the best choice for the name of a people. Any input on this name? Where is it
mentioned? Is it given with context, or it just appears in a word list? Does it
refer to some particular branch of the Teleri or to some specific time frame?

"Identifying" the Franks with the Teleri would give as _Mirimo_ as a name, but
that would be a translation of "Franco" (Frank in English), so to make an ethnic
adjective I add -in (Eldar -> Eldarin, Noldor->Noldorin ...) and obtain
_Mirimorin_. Is this ok? All my examples start from a two-syllable noun, so the
accent does not move, here I would get the stress like MirImorin, which sounds
awkward.
Now I should make it into a male noun, am I correct in assuming that I should
just add an -o ? I have seen plenty of examples of how to get a noun from an
adjective in -a, but this one ends with consonant. To avoid this problem I also
thought of using _Mirimorinwa_ (Sindar->Sindarinwa) as adjective, obtaining the
name _Mirimorinwo_, which sounds better.

To be fair, while I like this derivation, I am not too fond of the name, and I
would also like to translate my surname, which has a definite meaning in
Italian, so I would surely go with a translation, and not with a phonetic
transliteration.
Unfortunately, it means "from Venice", or "inhabitant of Venice". I like to
think Esgaroth (lake-town) is a good translation of Venice, but do we have a
Quenya name for Esgaroth? Maybe I should settle for a Sindarin name, but I still
haven't read anything about Sindarin.

--- In elfling@yahoogroups.com, "fra.veneziano" <fra.veneziano@...> wrote:
> Then we have NC, which are two distinct sounds, with the C being what
wikipedia calls "Voiceless palato-alveolar affricate" (!). The cluster sounds
like the NCH of Winchester, and it is another sound which does not occur in
Queya.

The sound _nty_ (as in _intya_ 'guess') comes close enough, I think.


> The SC are two distinct sounds, like the SK of "ask"; is this a possible
cluster?

Yes (e.g. _rusco_ 'fox').


> How this name would have been assimilated into Quenya? I have absolutely no
clue. Rancéso? Rancesco? Rahesco?...

The big question I think is what would happen to the initial FR, which I think
is not found in any known Elvish. The closest I think is primitive Eldarin SR-,
which yields Quenya _hr_.

So _Hrantyesco_?



> Now, for "free", I found _ranya_, _aranya_, _léra_, _mirima_; any comment on
these words? Different meanings?

All of the words are perhaps suitable in meaning, although _mirima_ is
significantly older (in Tolkien's writings) than the other. _Léra_ seems to be
the only word without homonyms, and without connotations of "straying".


> I was especially pleased to find that _Mirimor_ is a name for the Teleri,
making it the best choice for the name of a people. Any input on this name?
Where is it mentioned? Is it given with context, or it just appears in a word
list? Does it refer to some particular branch of the Teleri or to some specific
time frame?

The only mention of the name seems to be in Etym (entry MIS), though an early
version of the Silmarillion gives "the Free" and "the Wanderers" as by-names of
the Teleri.


Yours,
Måns

PARMA ELDALAMBERON 12

Qenyaqetsa
"The Sounds of Qenya" and
"Qenya Dictionary"

By J. R. R. TOLKIEN

<http://www.eldalamberon.com/parma12.html>

Tolkien's earliest work on Qenya dealt specifically with the dialect spoken by
the reunited kindreds of the Elves living in Tol Eressea. His later work on the
language centered around the earlier use of Quenya for Elven poetry and lore in
the Third Age of Middle-earth; and naturally these two dialects are related,
sharing a substantial corpus of essentially identical core vocabulary and
certain grammatical devices.  Because of this overlap the earlier work affords
an invaluable perspective on the process of linguistic invention that culminated
in the later work.

But for numerous concepts the early "Qenya Lexicon" also attests to their only
expression devised by Tolkien in any historical period or dialect of the
language.  From cucumbers to gooseberries, camels to daddy-long-legs, sapphires
to daffodils; from Warwickshire to Exeter, Norway to Africa, Purgatory to the
blue air that is about the stars; from glossy to miserable, brazen to mauve,
free from suspicion to absent-minded; from the ripple of laughter to a cold in
the head, from nursery rhymes to gospel, from squeaking to saying "if you
please"* -- for these and many more objects or attributes the record of Eressean
speech is our only evidence for any Quenya words to describe them.

The full text of this Qenya dictionary, together with a contemporary historical
phonology of the language, was published in Parma Eldalamberon, Issue No. 12. 
This has been out-of-print for several year and is now being reprinted.  We have
corrected all of the errors that were noticed in the previous printings, and
have also improved the typography of the phonetic symbols and diacritics used in
the text where unicode versions are now available.

For further information about ordering the revised reprint of Parma 12, please
see the webpage at the link given above.

Christopher Gilson


*Cf. QL kolosta 47, melpo 61, ulumpe 97, (atta) lenqelénu 53, lúle 57,
kankale-malina 44; Alalminóre 29, Estirin 37, Ponóre 74, Salkinóre 84, manimuine
58, ilwe 42; oiwa/silwa 71/83, angayanda 34, kalaska 44, helinqila 39,
naustavilte 65, fanórea 37; mirmile 61, nungo 66, nyanda 68, evandilyon 36, qíne
77, iqista 43.

Well, I think this is the kind of names that are not appropriate to translate
into Quenya.

It would seem the whole concept of "free-man" was non-existent in Elvish, as
they had no slaves. But in fact this is actually a word to mean "man" as so many
in Germanic languages, of which I can now recall beorn, ceorl, mann, this
oftenly meant "a free-man in society of a certain status" which shifted,
depending on if it was a beorn or a ceorl or an eorl, etc. Moreover, frank
(correct me if I'm wrong) is supposed to be derived from the same root as "frid"
and therefore "peace" but also "friend" and "free".

This would suggest SER as a likely root, although semantically no such
connection exists in Elvish thought between free and friend or love, and none of
those with free-man. You could go with the usual word for "man", or Serimo
"peaceful". I would discard "MIR" as not being appropriate for mature Quenya.
The problems with such words for "free" in Elvish is that they are not related
to socially free but to stray. The again, there is a final option, you could
look at the root for "Leithian" which could lead you to "unbound" which I think
comes even closer to the meaning.

This is all I can think of right now.

As to the surname. A more dangerous ground still. Your name correctly means
"venetian", but you cannot assume a city's name has a translation with the name
of some other city, you should either adapt the sounds of the name or check the
etymology. Unfortunately Venice comes from the Veneti a tribe of that region,
and I don't think we are very close to unmasking its etymon. You could,
nonetheless, use Veneti and construct Venetin, Venetiliéva, Venetino, or
contract it to Vento, Ventorin, Ventino, Ventoliéva, etc.

I hope this was useful.

2011-07-07 17:04, fra.veneziano skrev:

> Trying to translate the etymology, instead, I found that
> the name comes (through Latin) from some sort of
> Frank-isk, an ethnical adjective relating to the tribe of
> Franks, which in their language meant "Free man" (Some
> other sources claim that they were called Franks after the
> name of the axe of a special shape they used, but Isidore
> of Seville asserts it is the axe which took its name from
> the people, and though he is not renown for the accuracy
> of his etymologies, he is always better than a couple of
> nondescript websites).

2011-07-13 23:26, Slasher skrev:

> Well, I think this is the kind of names that are not
> appropriate to translate into Quenya.

> It would seem the whole concept of "free-man" was
> non-existent in Elvish, as they had no slaves. But in fact
> this is actually a word to mean "man" as so many in
> Germanic languages, of which I can now recall beorn,
> ceorl, mann, this oftenly meant "a free-man in society of
> a certain status" which shifted, depending on if it was a
> beorn or a ceorl or an eorl, etc. Moreover, frank (correct
> me if I'm wrong) is supposed to be derived from the same
> root as "frid" and therefore "peace" but also "friend" and
> "free".

Yet some of them were enslaved by the enemy, and the
concepts of slavery and freedom from it existed, as
testified by the following terms:

*   léra adj. noun "free", of persons (VT41:5)
*   lerya - vb. "release, set free, let go";
*   avalerya - "bind, make fast, restrain, deprive of
      liberty" (VT41:5, 6)
*   rúna - vb. "[to] free" (VT43:23) .
*   mól noun "slave, thrall" (MÔ, VT43:31).

I would not rule out the idea that someone who escaped the
Enemy's captivity might get a (nick)name based on this fact.
Moreover from Tolkien's religious perspective all the world
was in need of release from that same captivity.

But actually St. Francis got the nickname _Francesco_
because he was fond of French language and customs
(though that affectation may actually have fallen off
after his religious awakening) so we are definitely
dealing with the ethnonym here, and the Franks got, or
took, that name because they were free in the sense of
not being under Roman rule. To not live under the Pax
Romana could definitely be seen as a good thing. After
all one Roman (Tacitus) described the PR as
"Solitudinem faciunt, pacem appellant" -- 'They make a
wasteland and call it peace'! St. Isidore is, I'm
afraid, bogus 99% of the time. He certainly wasn't any
Germanic philologist; I doubt he even knew a few words
of Visigothic! You would be better off with a modern
etymological dictionary, or even the slightly dated one
found at <http://www.etimo.it/> 'Etymology' for the
ancients was more about telling a fanciful moral lesson
than a linguistic one. As the Wikipedia article
_Etymology_ says:

> The search for meaningful origins for familiar or strange
> words is far older than the modern understanding of
> linguistic evolution and the relationships of languages,
> which began no earlier than the 18th century. From
> Antiquity through the 17th century, from P�ṇini to Pindar
> to Sir Thomas Browne, etymology had been a form of witty
> wordplay, in which the supposed origins of words were
> changed to satisfy contemporary requirements.

I would without hesitation translate _*frankon-_ as _léro*,
Léron* (Lérond-*)_ and _Francesco_ as _Léron*_ or _Léronyo*_
(from _*Lérondyo_). My preference would be for

*   _Léron*_ 'Frank',
*   _Léronya*_ 'Frankish, French'
*   _Lérondor*_ 'France'
*   _Léronyo*_ 'Francis'
*   _Léronye*_ 'Frances'

I'm not as sure about 'French language'; what happens to
_-rin_ after _-nd-_? Anyway a language name derived directly
from _Léron*_ should probably mean 'Frankish (Germanic
language)', while 'French (Romance language)' might better
be derived from _Lérondor*_, thus _Lérondorin*_.

/BP 8^)>
--
melroch nosp@m atte melroch dotte se
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ __
                  A h-ammen lerin i phith!                \ \
       __  ____ ____    _____________ ____ __   __ __     / /
       \ \/___ \\__ \  /___  _____/\ \\__ \\ \  \ \\ \   / /
       / /   / /  /  \    / /Melroch\ \_/ // /  / // /  / /
      / /___/ /_ / /\ \  / /Melarokko\_  // /__/ // /__/ /
     /_________//_/  \_\/ /Eowine __  / / \___/\_\\___/\_\
Gwaedhvenn Angeliniel\ \______/ /a/ /_h-adar Merthol naun
    ~~~~~~~~~Kuinondil~~~\________/~~\__/~~~Noolendur~~~~~~
|| Lenda lenda pellalenda pellatellenda kuivie aiya! ||

Probably, frank < Proto-Germanic *frang < PIE *prang-   meaning a pole or
prong. There some less likely derivations, but this is one most linguists
accept.

Just a note I though I might throw in. Nothing about 'free' or 'pride' Just
a pole.

Hi everyone.

someone wrote a sentence to me in elvish a long time ago and I have recently
found it but am having trouble translatingit.  I have tried looking on the
internet but with no joy.

the sentence is:

"illume nauvan enta elyen"

any ideas???


Thanks