<nojam75@...> wrote:

> > Brother, there is too much $$$ involved for them
> to change their
> > mind now and accept reality.  The anti-gay issue
> is a real money-
> > maker.  James Kennedy still uses the issue
> regularly for fund-
> > raising!

REPLY:  While you may not agree with James Kennedy,
TBN and others on the subject of being ex-gay, it is
incorrect to think they are all believe what they
believe for the money.  That just doesn't make
sense,in my opinion.  There may be other issues they
believe, like the properity message so many teach, but
I think you are wrong to raise the money issue in this
context.
>
<nojam75@...> wrote:

> I know, it seems that whenever one of these
> "Christian" organizations runs low on funds they are
quick to send out the old
> "gay agenda"
> mailers.  Pat Robertson is also notorious for using
> the gay card when
> running low on cash.

REPLY:  The fact that you put "Christian" in quotes
indicates that you may feel these people are not true
Christians.  You may be guilty of exactly the same
thing you accuse them of - that is, not accepting them
as brothers and sisters just because they don't see
eye to eye with you.  Jesus said, "He that is not
against us is for us."

If you really believe God is ok with your gayness,
then how does it please God for you to criticize other
sincere Christians, just because they don't believe
God wants them to act out homosexual desires?

Food for thought, ok?

God bless,

Jerry in Michigan
>
> Gay scare tactics are pretty effective in
> fundraising with
> fundamentalist/conservative Christians.  So, it
> would seem that as a
> money-hungry broadcaster, TBN would be quick to
> promote anti-gay and
> ex-gay message in its broadcasts.  But it TBN is
> relatively quiet on
> the topic (not that I'm complaining).  I don't
> monitor TBN, beyond
> flipping past it during my channel-surfing.  But its
> seems the 700
> Club and James Kennedy devote more time to anti-gay
> broadcasts than
> TBN.
>
> You mentioned that you spent some time at TBN, is
> homosexuality a
> taboo topic?  There have been rumors that secret gay
> encounters were
> rampant in Jim Bakker's PTL and the Assemblies of
> God Church during
> the 80s.  Could it be that TBN is relatively quiet
> about
> homosexuality because they are reluctant to deal
> with some of their
> own closet cases?  (Just look at some of these guys'
> wardrobs?)
>
> Just pondering,
>
> Norm! (nojam75@...)
>
>


__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Health - your guide to health and wellness
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SEE REPLY BELOW:

--- Steve Boese <steve@...> wrote:
> calldon2k said:
> << After planning to move and after publicizing the
> move so they could raise
> money, they had a few shows from Calvary Temple.  I
> was playing piano there
> at the time and did some of the pre-show music,
> praise and worship stuff to
> pump-up the crowd before the REAL "Paul and Jan
> Show" started. >>

Steve, I don't know whether Paul and Jan are sincere
or not (I think only God know that).  But flamboyance
does not automatically equal lack of sincerity and we
all feel good in any legitimate venue when we are
"pumped up" as you put it.  I'm sorry if you witnessed
some lack of sincerity perhaps, but a great many
"evangelical" Christians and many who have the
"fundamental" label as well are wonderful, sincere
Christians.  I find that the ex-ex-gay movement is
becoming far too critical of their brothers and
sisters in Christ who happened to disagree with them
on this issue.  In that sense, they are exactly the
same way as the very radical, pro-gay agenda who is
trying to get homosexuality taught in kindergarten.
Even if God accepts us just the way we are, I don't
think he wants to see us encourage homosexual activity
by those who may not have a pre-dispostion to
homosexuality.  Well, that's my thought for now.

God bless,
>
> I was curious about the history of TBN's Texas
> facility -- was it originally
> touted as a the new headquarters or a partial
> replacement for the palaces in
> Santa Ana?
>
> --Steve
>
>


__________________________________________________
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Yahoo! Health - your guide to health and wellness
http://health.yahoo.com

I agree with Jerry that there's some knee-jerk hostility in the
ex-ex-gay movement.

Some of it is understandable -- many people have been injured by various
ex-gay ministries' unprofessional or irrational tactics.

But some of it is simply a denial of personal responsibility. Some
ex-ex-gays won't admit that they joined ex-gay ministries of their own
free will, and whatever happened there was partly a matter of personal
choice. In most cases, no one made them spend years in poorly designed
ministries. It was their choice.

As far as I'm concerned, sincerity is a non-issue. Whatever their faith
perspective, most people are sincere. But they still hurt people. The
road to hell is paved with good intentions.

For example, Paul and Jan are sincere, and they have done good works.
They have also wasted literally tens of millions of dollars on luxuries
for themselves. Most Christians agree that is a sin, and all Christians
must repent of their sins. Correct?

Likewise, the progressive National Gay and Lesbian Task Force and GLAAD
claim to uphold freedom and human rights. In some respects, they
accomplish that. But they frequently seek to thwart the right of
moderates and conservatives (both straight and gay) to speak freely.

Jerry, I don't know of anyone seeking to get homosexuality taught in
kindergarten. I do know that most Christians -- indeed, most Americans
-- want kids to stop bullying and bashing each other, lest tragedies
like Columbine keep happening.

Regarding James Kennedy: A Christian acquaintance of mine has stood in
prayerful witness outside James Kennedy's operation, Coral Ridge
Ministries, bringing attention to Kennedy's promotion of discrimination
and imprisonment of homosexuals. James Kennedy has made promises to meet
with this acquaintance, then broken his promises. Kennedy is not
motivated by money, but rather by sincere belief in a brand of
Christianity that believes it must take political control of the United
States and selectively enforce Old Testament law against a nation of
infidels.

That is not true of all fundamentalists or evangelicals, by any means.
But it is true of certain segments. Likewise, there are leftist and
Marxist Christians around the world (especially in Latin America) who
view selective discrimination and political action against Americans
(especially evangelicals) as a viable means of living out the Gospels
and achieving Jesus' vision of a just world.

It would be nice if these factions of Christianity would spend less time
stereotyping one another, and more time communicating.

Sincerely,
Mike Airhart

--- In exexgayministry@y..., Joiner Rex <rexjoiner@y...> wrote:
> REPLY:  While you may not agree with James Kennedy,
> TBN and others on the subject of being ex-gay, it is
> incorrect to think they are all believe what they
> believe for the money.

No one here has made that generalization.  The criticism was because
of the way they use "pet issues" (abortion, homosexuality, communism,
liberalism, etc.) when they need to raise funds for something.

> REPLY:  The fact that you put "Christian" in quotes
> indicates that you may feel these people are not true
> Christians.

You should do some reading-up on Ole Anthony and the Trinity
Foundation in Dallas.  They provide housing and services for homeless
people.  Awhile back, they were having people come to them who had
given all of their money to these ministries, then, when they were in
need, the ministries turned them away!!!

Brother, where there is money, there is power.  James Kennedy, James
Dobson and others know that and work the religious system to get it.
Many who post on this group have come out of those ministries.  Many
here have seen what happens after the crowd is gone, after the TV
cameras are turned off.  Many here have been with those ministers
away from the pulpit...and observed them in real life, driving  in
the car, ordering in a restaurant, dealing with people one on one.

The issue is NOT the "gay thing."  The issue is that the bigger
ministries, as a rule, operate by one set of standards while the
local church and the people in the pew operate by another set of
standards.  The issue is hypocracy!

> If you really believe God is ok with your gayness,
> then how does it please God for you to criticize other
> sincere Christians, just because they don't believe
> God wants them to act out homosexual desires?

You are missing the whole point.  The issue is NOT homosexuality.
The issue is practicing in real life what you preach in public!!!  My
friend, THAT is where "the big ones" are revealed for what they
really are...and to those of us who have been there with them, it is
NOT a pretty sight.

A close friend want's me to write a book entitled WHEN CHRISTIANS
ATTACK!  I think it would be easy to get personal stories from those
wounded by the big Christian ministries...not just the disgruntled
employees...but those who have really been deceived, hurt by them.

The issue is not homosexuality...the issue is hypocracy!

--- In exexgayministry@y..., Joiner Rex <rexjoiner@y...> wrote:

> Steve, I don't know whether Paul and Jan are sincere
> or not (I think only God know that).  But flamboyance
> does not automatically equal lack of sincerity and we
> all feel good in any legitimate venue when we are
> "pumped up" as you put it.

Here is some info for ya about "flamboyance."

QUOTE:===The Crouches — who declined to be interviewed — are
      hands-on executives, occupying two of three seats on
      the TBN board of directors and earning six-figure
      incomes. He is paid $159,500 a year as president, while
      she gets $165,100 as vice president, IRS records show.

===END QUOTE!

>I'm sorry if you witnessed
> some lack of sincerity perhaps, but a great many
> "evangelical" Christians and many who have the
> "fundamental" label as well are wonderful, sincere
> Christians.

Yes they are.  But they do not get on TV and CRY AND BEG for all the
little "Grandmas" to send in their social-security checks, do they?

But here's another comment on the actions of a couple of "Christians"
who constantly beg for money from little "grandmas" and others.

BEGIN QUOTE:==="Paul and Jan Crouch recently purchased a $5 million
estate in Newport Beach, CA. The palatial home was described in an
Orange County newspaper as "a palatial estate with ocean and city
views." The Crouches, founders of the Trinity Broadcasting Network,
have lived in a smaller home in Newport Beach for many years.

Sources say Jan Crouch wanted a bigger yard for her dogs. The new
9,500 square-foot home is situated on more than an acre.

The new Crouch home has six bedrooms, nine bathrooms, a billiards
room, a climate-controlled wine cellar, a sweeping staircase and a
crystal chandelier.

The three-story home also has an elevator, a six-car garage, a tennis
court, and a pool with a fountain.

It was not reported whether the Crouches personally paid for the
estate or whether the nonprofit ministry purchased the property. The
Crouches have used TBN money to purchase numerous properties across
the country to provide the couple with a luxurious tax-free
lifestyle.

One of the Crouch estates is TBN's ranch in Colleyville, TX, just
minutes away from the Dallas/Fort Worth International Airport. The 80-
plus acre ranch is located between the city limits of Colleyville and
Southlake – two of the wealthiest cities in Texas. The ranch, which
contains eight houses and horse stables, is estimated to be worth
about $10 million.

The ministry also provides luxury automobiles – both his and hers –
at each location. For example, the Colleyville ranch has two
Landrovers parked in the garage for Paul and Jan. The Crouches
usually visit the ranch about four times each year."

===END QUOTE!

>I find that the ex-ex-gay movement is
> becoming far too critical of their brothers and
> sisters in Christ who happened to disagree with them
> on this issue.

So do you know how many homeless people Paul and Jan could have fed
with the money spent on that "six bedrooms, nine bathrooms, a
billiards room, a climate-controlled wine cellar" home?  And realize
that THIS WAS THEIR VACATION HOME!!!  This wasn't their real home.

>I don't
> think he wants to see us encourage homosexual activity
> by those who may not have a pre-dispostion to
> homosexuality.  Well, that's my thought for now.

You are reading things into these posts that no one said.  Please
have your vision checked.  NO ONE ever tried to encourage any
activity, other than responsibile actions!

--- In exexgayministry@y..., "Michael Airhart" <mairhart@i...> wrote:
> But some of it is simply a denial of personal responsibility. Some
> ex-ex-gays won't admit that they joined ex-gay ministries of their
own
> free will, and whatever happened there was partly a matter of
personal
> choice. In most cases, no one made them spend years in poorly
designed
> ministries. It was their choice.

Mike, that simply is NOT true.  First you need to consider WHY they
went to an ex-gay ministry in the first place.  It CERTAINLY was NOT
because they were emotionally well adjusted and content with their
life and their walk with Christ.

In general, people who enter an ex-gay ministry think they might be
gay (or they know), they have been taught that "gay folks" are
an "abomination to God," homosexuality is an abomination to God,
reprobate, etc., etc., etc.  Many of them were told for years that
they would not inherit the kingdom of God, that they were going to
hell because of what they are, not because of what they have done.

THAT is STRONG motivation!

Now, consider yourself.  Suppose your loved ones, your spiritual
leaders had been drumming this into your head for many years.
Consider that every time you walk into church, you hear the words
from the pulpit about the sins of the ambiguous "gay lifestyle."
Consider that your pastor said to your face, YOU ARE GOING TO HELL
because you are gay!

The message is...either become heterosexual or GO TO HELL!!!

Brother, THAT would be strong motivation for you to "seek help" from
an ex-gay ministry, from a witch doctor, from Benny Hinn, from the
fortune teller, from ANYBODY...just so you won't go to hell.  Sorry,
but people are pushed into those ministries by fear, brought on by
the words and actions of others.  It is NOT as simple as you are
trying to claim, it is far more involved than "personal choice."

(We haven't even discussed those gay guys who get married, thinking
marriage will "cure" them.)

> As far as I'm concerned, sincerity is a non-issue. Whatever their
faith
> perspective, most people are sincere. But they still hurt people.
The
> road to hell is paved with good intentions.

You might consider studying a book such as "The Subtle Power of
Spiritual Abuse" by David Johnson and Jeff Vanvonderen.  The issue is
control.  People who enter "ex-gay ministries" have to surrender even
more control than they have already surrendered to God.  If
they "slip-up" in any way, even if they dare question the leadership,
they are rebuked strongly and often banished from the ministry.  I
know several who have been that route.

ONE PERSONAL EXAMPLE:  I knew a kid in another state where I used to
live.  (I was not much older at the time)  Nice guy who didn't fit in
the "norm" of society.  His parents were Bob and Betty Baptist, very
traditional yet somewhat cold towards their two kids.  After living
away for a few years, I received a phone call from this kid (now a
young adult) who had been sent to town by his parents.  As it turned
out, he was GAY and his parents sent him to a clinic to be cured!!!
To make a long story shorter, he was not cured at that famous
Christian counceling center.  But his parents refused to allow him
back home.  So, he stayed in town and eventually entered one of
the "Exodus" related ministries.  Within a few months, he had been
seduced by one of the leaders in the group.  After a few more months,
they moved away, eventually settled in Florida as a couple.  AFAIK,
they are still living there...the Exodus leader and the kid whose
good, Baptist parents would not allow to come home...because he was
gay!  (I have more examples if you need them.)

So you are saying that people enter these ministries "of their own
free will?"  Not hardly!

> It would be nice if these factions of Christianity would spend less
time
> stereotyping one another, and more time communicating.

Amen!

--- In exexgayministry@y..., Joiner Rex <rexjoiner@y...> wrote:
> REPLY:  The fact that you put "Christian" in quotes
> indicates that you may feel these people are not true
> Christians.  You may be guilty of exactly the same
> thing you accuse them of - that is, not accepting them
> as brothers and sisters just because they don't see
> eye to eye with you.  Jesus said, "He that is not
> against us is for us."

To clarify, I specifically stated "'Christian' organizations".  My
point was that I question whether the practices of these
organizations necessarily fall within the teaching's of Jesus.  I
have a hard time believing that Jesus would advocate the building of
these huge media & political empires.  I could be wrong, but it
seems to me that televangalism and parts of fundamentalism are based
more on consumerism than love of one another.

I did not intend to imply that the leaders of these organizations
are not Christians, but I understand how my statements could be
interpreted in that manner.  Again to clarify, I would never attempt
to determine who is or is not Christian.  However, I do think it
legitimate to discuss whether a person's or organization's actions
coincide with Jesus' message.  All people and organizations fall
short simply because our own humanity may undermine our intentions.

> If you really believe God is ok with your gayness,
> then how does it please God for you to criticize other
> sincere Christians, just because they don't believe
> God wants them to act out homosexual desires?

How does it please God to be silent?  Did not Jesus loudly speakout
against the temple money changers and the religious establishment?
Although I do question the intent and effectiveness of many
Christians' actions, I do recognize that many ex-gay promoters
sincerely believe they are doing God's will and are helping gays.
But sincerity does place a person or organization above criticism --
whether they be ex-gay, ex-ex-gay, etc.

Again, we all fall short and I didn't mean to be so one-sided.
More "liberal" and "progressive" Christian organizations are just as
suspectible to criticism.  In fact, I often ask myself what it means
to be a "Christian" or a "gay Christian".  Self-examination is often
more beneficial than criticing others.

-- Norm! (nojam75@...)

--- In exexgayministry@y..., calldon2k <no_reply@y...> wrote:
> --- In exexgayministry@y..., "Michael Airhart" <mairhart@i...>
wrote:
> > But some of it is simply a denial of personal responsibility.
Some
> > ex-ex-gays won't admit that they joined ex-gay ministries of
their
> own
> > free will, and whatever happened there was partly a matter of
> personal
> > choice. In most cases, no one made them spend years in poorly
> designed
> > ministries. It was their choice.

I have to agree with Michael.  In my case, I fully admit that I
willingly chose to participate in ex-gay programs.  The Christian
community I was involved with did encourage me to deal with my same-
sex desires, but they were not familiar with ex-gay programs.
Certainly, my Christian friends pressured me to uphold my
fundamentalist Christian values and abstain from sex outside of a
heterosexual marriage.  But I can't say they pressured me to convert
to heterosexuality.  In fact, they fully acknowledged the notion
that I may be homosexual for the rest of my life.  So I really
pressured myself to seek ex-gay treatment and I take responsibility
for that.

CallDon has a valid point that Christian culture can exert powerful
pressure on gays to seek ex-gay treatment.  But in my experience, I
can't say Christian culture necessarily force gays into ex-gay
programs.  There are extreme examples of families forcing their kids
into ex-gay programs.  However, the ex-gay programs I dealt with are
aware such extremes and are careful to emphasize that ex-gay
participants must be self-motivated.  Christian culture and
Christian families can knowingly and unknowningly force gays into ex-
gay programs, but only when a gay Christian *allows* Christian
culture/family to exert such pressure.  The gay Christian who
passively allows such pressures is choosing to accept such pressure
as valid.  The alternative for the adult, homosexual Christian is to
reject such pressures and deal with the consequences (minors are in
a much more difficult situation and may not have such freedom).
Also, gay Christian fundamentalists are in a more challengingly
situation because fundamentalism tends to discourage alternative
thinking and questioning.

So, I don't consider myself and most other ex-ex-gays as innocent
victims of ex-gay programs.  I think most of us, for a variety of
reasons, chose to pursue ex-gay treatment.  But this acknowledgement
does not mean ex-gay programs are off-the-hook when it comes to the
effects of their programs.  In the same way they publicize their
handful of success stories, they need to acknowledge the devastating
effects of their programs.

- Norm! (nojam75@...)

--- In exexgayministry@y..., "nojam75" <nojam75@y...> wrote:
> I have to agree with Michael.  In my case, I fully admit that I
> willingly chose to participate in ex-gay programs.

Correct me if I am wrong, but you did this as a relatively mature
adult who was secure in your walk with Christ.

>The Christian
> community I was involved with did encourage me to deal with my same-
> sex desires, but they were not familiar with ex-gay programs.
> Certainly, my Christian friends pressured me to uphold my
> fundamentalist Christian values and abstain from sex outside of a
> heterosexual marriage.  But I can't say they pressured me to
convert
> to heterosexuality.  In fact, they fully acknowledged the notion
> that I may be homosexual for the rest of my life.

I would say that your experience is different from many.  Back in the
1970s and even into today, there is much pressure among the followers
of Dobson, James Kennedy, Falwell and most charasmatic groups to "be
healed" or "be delivered" from your homosexuality with all that it
implies.  Consider that a new Christian, a "babe in Christ" does not
have decades of spiritual growth to understand "whosoever will" and
principles as that.  Your group may have accepted your "celebate
homosexuality" but most of the groups I have been associated with
usually proclaim loudly 1Cor6:9-11 as PROOF that YOU CAN CHANGE, you
CAN be delivered and BE NORMAL.  Just look at Dennis Jernigan as
PROOF that you CAN BE DELIVERED from homosexuality and pop-out eight
or ten babies, securing your manhood.

Yes, there is much pressure.  Either be healed, be delivered or go to
hell.  Sorry if I sound like a broken record, but I have obwerved it
since the seventies.  I have dealt with the "failures" who were
never "delivered."  As an entertainer/musician, I work with many gay
people every day, most of whom came from solid, conservative
Christian backgrounds.  After years of spiritual, emotional and
personal conflict, most of them finally said "SCREW YOU" to God, to
the Church and many, to their unaccepting families.  The stories are
heartbreaking and so sad.

You said your group "fully acknowledged the notion that [you] may be
homosexual for the rest of my life." Where is your group now?  What
do they think about you now?  How many have remained your friend?
How many think that you have "gone off of the deep end?"  How many
think that you have given in to those abominal desires?

> CallDon has a valid point that Christian culture can exert powerful
> pressure on gays to seek ex-gay treatment.  But in my experience, I
> can't say Christian culture necessarily force gays into ex-gay
> programs.

Then I would say that you probably come from a very
moderate "Christian culture."  Few conservative churches would accept
you for very long if you continued to entertain the idea that your
homosexuality might be acceptable in any way.  THAT has been my
observation over the years.

>Christian culture and Christian families can knowingly and
>unknowningly force gays into ex-gay programs, but only when a gay
>Christian *allows* Christian  culture/family to exert such pressure.

Consider the alcoholic who has been convicted of two or three DUIs,
has lost his job three times, has spent several months in jail, his
wife left him and took the kids to another state and he is now living
in one room.

Did he finally attend AA meetings on his own free will?  Or was
there "culture,family" pressure to attend AA?

>  The gay Christian who
> passively allows such pressures is choosing to accept such pressure
> as valid.

"Gay Christian" is a broad term.  A "newer" Christian does not have
the years of spiritual growth to assure him of his relationship with
Christ.  The message he hears from the pulpit, from TV ministries,
from his Christian family is always...KNOW YOU NOT that the
unrighteous will NOT inherit the kingdom of God...HOMOSEXUALS will
NOT inherit the kingdom of God!

Valid or not, that is pretty strong pressure for a new Christian,
especially for a younger Christian!!!  I would not consider
submitting to THAT kind of pressure to be considered "passive."

>fundamentalism tends to discourage alternative
> thinking and questioning.

That's an understatement!

>In the same way they publicize their
> handful of success stories, they need to acknowledge the
devastating
> effects of their programs.

Notice that they only publicize the "handfull of (pseudo)success
stories."  They NEVER discuss the devastating effects of their
programs.  Right now, I am dealing with several people who have "come
out" to family, most of whom I have known for many years.  It was a
surprise to me when most told me they were gay.  The parents of all
of them are pushing the ex-gay ministries.  In one case, it is a girl
in her late 30s who came out to her parents around 4 years ago.  I
love her parents as dear friends for 30 years.  But her Mom is broken-
hearted and is really pushing for her to enter one of the live-in
Exodus-related ministries.  Her sweet Baptist mom refuses to accept
the fact that no-one in that ministry actually changes.  It is so sad
to hear both sides of the conversation and hurt for daughter and
Mother.


============================

--- In exexgayministry@y..., calldon2k <no_reply@y...> wrote:
>
> Correct me if I am wrong, but you did this as a relatively mature
> adult who was secure in your walk with Christ.

I confessed my struggle with homosexuality and enrolled in an ex-gay
program when I was 19.  I was raised as a Christian, but was still
trying to live up to my faith.  So, I wasn't a new Christian, but I
wouldn't say I was mature in my faith either (whatever "mature"
means).


> I would say that your experience is different from many.  Back in
the
> 1970s and even into today, there is much pressure among the
followers
> of Dobson, James Kennedy, Falwell and most charasmatic groups
to "be
> healed" or "be delivered" from your homosexuality with all that it
> implies.  Consider that a new Christian, a "babe in Christ" does
not
> have decades of spiritual growth to understand "whosoever will"
and
> principles as that.

I think I understand your point that relatively new Christians who
are gay may *feel* forced to seek gay conversion therapy.  However,
I would not say they were "forced" into ex-gay programs.  I
think "misled" or "pressured" are more appropriate descriptions.
The distinction is that at some point one has to take responsibility
for acting on their beliefs -- even when such beliefs are wrong or
misleading.  I agree that as a fundamentalist/conservative
Christian, I had few alternatives to ex-gay therapy.  However, that
was because I chose to maintain a specific set of beliefs.  I freely
chose not to consider other options such as becoming a
more "liberal" brand of Christian.


> You said your group "fully acknowledged the notion that [you] may
be
> homosexual for the rest of my life." Where is your group now?
What
> do they think about you now?  How many have remained your friend?
> How many think that you have "gone off of the deep end?"  How many
> think that you have given in to those abominal desires?

I have lost touch with most of my Christian friends I knew during
the ex-gay time in my life.  Although it hurts to lose such
friendships, I feel that the basis of such friendships (Christian
fundamentalism) is no longer a common bond.  So, in some ways, the
loss of these friendships is somewhat mutual -- although I had
attempted to maintain some kind of communication.

It also hurts to know that you are probably right in that my former
Christians friends now think of me.  From our last conversations, I
think they probably consider me a "lost Christian".

Having said that, I would not say they were responsible for my
attempt at ex-gay therapy.  Certainly, their attitudes influenced
me, but I chose to consider their opinions.


> Then I would say that you probably come from a very
> moderate "Christian culture."  Few conservative churches would
accept
> you for very long if you continued to entertain the idea that your
> homosexuality might be acceptable in any way.  THAT has been my
> observation over the years.

I don't know if my former Christian friends would view homosexuality
as "acceptable", but they would recognize it as an unfortunate
sinful temptation to be burdened with.  They, and most other
conservative Christians I'm aware of, distinguish between homosexual
temptations and sinful homosexual behavior.


> Did he finally attend AA meetings on his own free will?  Or was
> there "culture,family" pressure to attend AA?

It depends on whether he chose to stop drinking and chose AA as a
suitable method.  Certainly his culture and family pressured him to
stop drinking (and rightfully so), but ultimately he is responsible
to decide why and how to stop drinking.  One of the essential
principles of AA is personal responsibility.  So, I can't see how
one could go into AA feeling "forced" into it.  There is always an
alternative which in the AA scenario is to continue drinking.


Ultimately, my point about the importance of taking personal
responsibility is to avoid a victim mentality.  It is true that we
all face seemingly overwhelming pressures.  For instance, we all
have to deal with they way we were raised (ex: religious beliefs,
economic status, race, family, etc.).  While we can acknowledge the
challenge such difficulties can bring, it is childish to constantly
say we are the victims of our childhood.  At some point, each of us
recognize that we must take personal responsibility for our lives.
Similarly while we can acknowledge the damaging effects of ex-gay
therapy, it is important for former ex-gays to acknowledge that each
of us have the power to unlearn the ex-gay messages.

- Norm! (nojam75@...)

--- In exexgayministry@y..., "nojam75" <nojam75@y...> wrote:
> I confessed my struggle with homosexuality and enrolled in an ex-
gay
> program when I was 19.  I was raised as a Christian, but was still
> trying to live up to my faith.  So, I wasn't a new Christian, but I
> wouldn't say I was mature in my faith either (whatever "mature"
> means).

I understand, "mature" is a subjective term also.  For many years, I
was in "youth work."  Even now, I observe the mold into which we
attempt to force others to conform.  You are a good Christian if you
fit this mold.  You are not a good Christian if you don't.  I am one
of those former right-wingers who thought Southern Baptists were
liberal.  So...I was on the front row in the arena of trying
to "encourage" others into certain behaviors...thinking that those
behaviors were "Christian behaviors."

Fortunately, I allowed grace a bigger hold on my life.  For a control-
freak like me, it is difficult to realize that God really does love
all of those other people who do not look and act and dress exactly
like I think they should!!!  What a shock!

It is difficult to sometimes admit that there are Methodist and
Catholic and even Prestyterian folks who LOVE THE LORD just like I
claim to...and they are not trying to get me to act like them.

> I agree that as a fundamentalist/conservative
> Christian, I had few alternatives to ex-gay therapy.  However, that
> was because I chose to maintain a specific set of beliefs.  I
freely
> chose not to consider other options such as becoming a
> more "liberal" brand of Christian.

I understand.  "Liberals" were all going to hell anyway.  Why would
you want to become one?  Believe me when I say, I understand!

> It also hurts to know that you are probably right in that my former
> Christians friends now think of me.  From our last conversations, I
> think they probably consider me a "lost Christian".

Too bad that they cannot understand that a person can be a believer
even if they don't believe point-by-point as they do!  It is a shame
that they have lost a good friendship and a good friend.

> Ultimately, my point about the importance of taking personal
> responsibility is to avoid a victim mentality.  It is true that we
> all face seemingly overwhelming pressures.

Unfortunately, many who come from the ultra-fundie-type backgrounds
see no middle ground spiritually.  They have been taught "if you are
not FOR God (in our image of Him) then you are AGAINST God...and
us...and all things good and holy.  I have seen so many of them just
discard all spiritual things and ideas completely.  Too bad for that.

>At some point, each of us
> recognize that we must take personal responsibility for our lives.

Amen!

--- In exexgayministry@y..., calldon2k <no_reply@y...> wrote:
> Too bad that they cannot understand that a person can be a
believer
> even if they don't believe point-by-point as they do!  It is a
shame
> that they have lost a good friendship and a good friend.

One of the best benefits of coming out of fundamentalism was
realizing that I no longer had to classify everyone in Saved ("One
of Us") and Unsaved ("Them") categories.  It's liberating to know
that I don't have to automatically stigmatize someone who may not
hold the same faith as my own.

> Unfortunately, many who come from the ultra-fundie-type
backgrounds
> see no middle ground spiritually.  They have been taught "if you
are
> not FOR God (in our image of Him) then you are AGAINST God...and
> us...and all things good and holy.  I have seen so many of them
just
> discard all spiritual things and ideas completely.  Too bad for
that.

More importantly fundamentalism tends to discard non-fundamentalist
people.  Other than viewing them as potential new recruits,
fundamentalism does not value non-believers.

Hope is probably the most liberating aspects of leaving
fundamentalism.  Hope in finding value in other people and hope in
the here & now.  The message of Jesus was the hope of experiencing
the kingdom of God in this life -- not in the afterlife or during
the end of the world.

- Norm!

--- In exexgayministry@y..., "nojam75" <nojam75@y...> wrote:
> One of the best benefits of coming out of fundamentalism was
> realizing that I no longer had to classify everyone in Saved ("One
> of Us") and Unsaved ("Them") categories.

You got it right!!!

Way back in the olden days...I participated in a concert sponsored
by "The Christian Church-Disciples of Christ."

SHOCK...those pseudo-Campbellites actually LOVE God like I claim to
love God.!!!  That was one of those "light-bulb" experiences, helping
to "shake me" out of my little fundi mold!

> More importantly fundamentalism tends to discard non-fundamentalist
> people.  Other than viewing them as potential new recruits,
> fundamentalism does not value non-believers.

Unfortunately, what you say is true.  The world of true
fundamentalists is a VERY small world.

> Hope is probably the most liberating aspects of leaving
> fundamentalism.  Hope in finding value in other people and hope in
> the here & now.

True.

>The message of Jesus was the hope of experiencing
> the kingdom of God in this life -- not in the afterlife or during
> the end of the world.

I would say both...in this life AND in the afterlife, at the end of
the world.

I think its far too simple to assume that the decision to join an ex-
gay ministry is one of either being forced into it, or choosing
entirely freely.  I know that I grew up in a dysfunctional family and
went to dysfunctional churches where the authority of the head of
household/preacher was all encompassing, where disagreement was
punished and love and acceptance withheld if there was not immediate
and total compliance.  I learned to obey, that only one way was
acceptable, and it wasn't mine- it was their interpretation of God's
will for me.  I really did not know how to think for myself, how to
separate what I had been taught from reality.  I didn't even know it
wasn't real, that there was another way to be that was actually
healthier and more spiritually based.  There was incredible pressure
placed on the members of those churches to comply, to think and
believe the same.  If you doubted, you lacked faith, you did not
believe in God, and therefore could not be a part of- to be different
was a sin in itself.  I was so damnably brainwashed, I could not see
any other way.  I had a church pay for me to go to an exodus
conference, and I went willingly because I believed I would in fact
go to hell if I could not change, and because I wanted God to love me
and for them, the people I considered my friends to accept me.  I
stayed just as gay as ever, just more guilt-ridden and ashamed.

The first time I questioned out loud with a friend of mine whether
the bible was word for word the word of God, we both cringed,
literally expecting some kind of terrible judgement-a bolt of
lightning or something equally drastic.  Of course, it didn't happen,
and I was quite relieved.  I laugh about it now, but it took a long
painful journey to change those spiritually abusive beliefs.
Of course, I became that "godless liberal" we all feared so much as a
result of seeking, questioning, doubting, and exploring truth. And,
they have rejected me, but, as a result of all that reaching out is
that This person my old church buddies reject now has real faith in
God.  I love him, I do not doubt his love for me now.  I believe he
is there for me always, and that he created me Lesbian- and treasures
his creation.

There are books that explain that kind of Christianity/religiosity in
detail and explain what is wrong with it- "The Subtle Power of
Spiritual Abuse", and "Toxic Faith" for example.  And, there are
books that explain the journey to learn to think for yourself, that
journey into self-actualization like "Women's Ways of Knowing".

To say people are forced into ex-gay ministries does not take into
account the power of culture, the indoctrination of religion and the
socialization process.  I think most of us try them because we
believe what we've been taught- that we are terrible, sinful beings
that will be rejected by God if we don't change.  I don't know about
you, but hell sounded pretty scary to me.  And, I wanted the
acceptance of my fellow church members as well, my church family-
that is tremendous pressure, to lose the respect of the people you
trust and depend on.

I didn't leave the ex-gay ministry because I changed my mind.  I left
because I gave up- realized I was not going to change- nobody else
really had, we all still felt "lust" for our own sex (amazing how
they always left out the tenderness, love and romance involved.)
My attitude changes came much later, after a lot of painful soul-
searching and prayer, and a spiritual awakening.  I'm very grateful
to God that I made it here, and that there is even more to come, more
to learn, more growth to experience.  Im grateful to know I am loved
by God and my prayer is that all glbt will come to know that in their
hearts as well.

One thing that makes me really sad though, and sometimes afraid as
well, is knowing that many of my brothers and sisters in Christ will
always reject and castigate me for being the creation God intended
for me to be.  Part of me craves that acceptance even as I know I
will never get it from most of them.  But, God loves them too, and
there is hope.  After all, I made it out, so can they.  Love you
guys, Pat

Hey Pat,
   Thanks for this post- your story is uncomfortably familiar to me!
   I think that one of the most damaging messages is that 'If you don't
change (your sexuality), you don't have enough faith, and are therefore
not good enough/ a failure'. That ends up with one feeling 'not good
enough for God, otherwise I would have been healed'.
   I too went earnestly to a Living Waters course (run by Exodus
ministries), and believed that I was 'truly seeking God with all my
heart'.
   I guess I left because, like you, I gave up. I think the despair
associated with that process is one of the most potentially damaging
outcomes- and is positively nurtured by those from whom 'help' and
'support' have been sought. I know I, for one, am blessed to still be
alive. I also know now that I am not alone in that sentiment (and there
are many more who didn't make it.).
   Yes, I am happy and secure in the knowledge that God created me
lesbian, and the loving, faithful God I have always believed in would
have changed/healed (whatever.) me if that had genuinely been God's will
for me.
   My partner now tells me she thinks I should ask for a refund (the
course cost me considerably, and I made significant sacrifices to get
there). However, I am secure in my faith, and knowing that I am where I
need to be (and that is truly a position I spent 30-or-so years getting
to, and longed for for the greater period of that time).
Cheers!
Chris

-----Original Message-----
From: patthecatwv [mailto:patthecatwv@...]
Sent: Thursday, May 30, 2002 3:00 PM
To: exexgayministry@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [ExExGayMinistry] coercion to join ex-gay ministries?

I think its far too simple to assume that the decision to join an ex-
gay ministry is one of either being forced into it, or choosing
entirely freely.  I know that I grew up in a dysfunctional family and
went to dysfunctional churches where the authority of the head of
household/preacher was all encompassing, where disagreement was
punished and love and acceptance withheld if there was not immediate
and total compliance.  I learned to obey, that only one way was
acceptable, and it wasn't mine- it was their interpretation of God's
will for me.  I really did not know how to think for myself, how to
separate what I had been taught from reality.  I didn't even know it
wasn't real, that there was another way to be that was actually
healthier and more spiritually based.  There was incredible pressure
placed on the members of those churches to comply, to think and
believe the same.  If you doubted, you lacked faith, you did not
believe in God, and therefore could not be a part of- to be different
was a sin in itself.  I was so damnably brainwashed, I could not see
any other way.  I had a church pay for me to go to an exodus
conference, and I went willingly because I believed I would in fact
go to hell if I could not change, and because I wanted God to love me
and for them, the people I considered my friends to accept me.  I
stayed just as gay as ever, just more guilt-ridden and ashamed.

The first time I questioned out loud with a friend of mine whether
the bible was word for word the word of God, we both cringed,
literally expecting some kind of terrible judgement-a bolt of
lightning or something equally drastic.  Of course, it didn't happen,
and I was quite relieved.  I laugh about it now, but it took a long
painful journey to change those spiritually abusive beliefs.
Of course, I became that "godless liberal" we all feared so much as a
result of seeking, questioning, doubting, and exploring truth. And,
they have rejected me, but, as a result of all that reaching out is
that This person my old church buddies reject now has real faith in
God.  I love him, I do not doubt his love for me now.  I believe he
is there for me always, and that he created me Lesbian- and treasures
his creation.

There are books that explain that kind of Christianity/religiosity in
detail and explain what is wrong with it- "The Subtle Power of
Spiritual Abuse", and "Toxic Faith" for example.  And, there are
books that explain the journey to learn to think for yourself, that
journey into self-actualization like "Women's Ways of Knowing".

To say people are forced into ex-gay ministries does not take into
account the power of culture, the indoctrination of religion and the
socialization process.  I think most of us try them because we
believe what we've been taught- that we are terrible, sinful beings
that will be rejected by God if we don't change.  I don't know about
you, but hell sounded pretty scary to me.  And, I wanted the
acceptance of my fellow church members as well, my church family-
that is tremendous pressure, to lose the respect of the people you
trust and depend on.

I didn't leave the ex-gay ministry because I changed my mind.  I left
because I gave up- realized I was not going to change- nobody else
really had, we all still felt "lust" for our own sex (amazing how
they always left out the tenderness, love and romance involved.)
My attitude changes came much later, after a lot of painful soul-
searching and prayer, and a spiritual awakening.  I'm very grateful
to God that I made it here, and that there is even more to come, more
to learn, more growth to experience.  Im grateful to know I am loved
by God and my prayer is that all glbt will come to know that in their
hearts as well.

One thing that makes me really sad though, and sometimes afraid as
well, is knowing that many of my brothers and sisters in Christ will
always reject and castigate me for being the creation God intended
for me to be.  Part of me craves that acceptance even as I know I
will never get it from most of them.  But, God loves them too, and
there is hope.  After all, I made it out, so can they.  Love you
guys, Pat


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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Thanks for sharing Pat & Chris!

Pat, you make an important distinction in that you didn't "decide"
to leave ex-gay ministry, but you "gave up".  I relate very much to
your experience.  Toward the end of my ex-gay experience, I had to
deal with the feelings of being a failure and a 'gay Christian
sinner who should know better'.  After commiting most of my
spiritual life and identity to upholding fundamentalist doctrines
and ex-gay theory, I felt that I was betraying my entire faith
system when I began reconsider these commitments.

What I began to realize though, was that I was not fully informed
when I made these commitments.  Being raised in Christian
fundamentalism, I took certain doctrines for granted without ever
seriously learning about the history and source of such doctrines.
Similarly, as a young, confused conservative Christian dealing
with 'homosexual tendencies', I was vulnerable to any conservative
Christian group that was willing to address the topic -- such as ex-
gay ministries.  And yet, I was forced to deal with the flaws of
fundamentalism and ex-gay theory.  Toward the end, I began to "give-
up" trying to reconcile the increasingly complex and confusing
theories behind fundamentalism and ex-gay theory.

In hindsight, I view my ex-gay experience as part of my growing
process.  In going through the ex-gay process, I applied a set of
beliefs that didn't work out for me.  I view it as
necessarily 'giving up' but as 'moving on'.

- Norm!





--- In exexgayministry@y..., "Chris H" <itschris@r...> wrote:
> Hey Pat,
>   Thanks for this post- your story is uncomfortably familiar to me!
>   I think that one of the most damaging messages is that 'If you
don't
> change (your sexuality), you don't have enough faith, and are
therefore
> not good enough/ a failure'. That ends up with one feeling 'not
good
> enough for God, otherwise I would have been healed'.
>   I too went earnestly to a Living Waters course (run by Exodus
> ministries), and believed that I was 'truly seeking God with all my
> heart'.
>   I guess I left because, like you, I gave up. I think the despair
> associated with that process is one of the most potentially
damaging
> outcomes- and is positively nurtured by those from whom 'help' and
> 'support' have been sought. I know I, for one, am blessed to still
be
> alive. I also know now that I am not alone in that sentiment (and
there
> are many more who didn't make it.).
>   Yes, I am happy and secure in the knowledge that God created me
> lesbian, and the loving, faithful God I have always believed in
would
> have changed/healed (whatever.) me if that had genuinely been
God's will
> for me.
>   My partner now tells me she thinks I should ask for a refund (the
> course cost me considerably, and I made significant sacrifices to
get
> there). However, I am secure in my faith, and knowing that I am
where I
> need to be (and that is truly a position I spent 30-or-so years
getting
> to, and longed for for the greater period of that time).
> Cheers!
> Chris
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: patthecatwv [mailto:patthecatwv@y...]
> Sent: Thursday, May 30, 2002 3:00 PM
> To: exexgayministry@y...
> Subject: [ExExGayMinistry] coercion to join ex-gay ministries?
>
> I think its far too simple to assume that the decision to join an
ex-
> gay ministry is one of either being forced into it, or choosing
> entirely freely.  I know that I grew up in a dysfunctional family
and
> went to dysfunctional churches where the authority of the head of
> household/preacher was all encompassing, where disagreement was
> punished and love and acceptance withheld if there was not
immediate
> and total compliance.  I learned to obey, that only one way was
> acceptable, and it wasn't mine- it was their interpretation of
God's
> will for me.  I really did not know how to think for myself, how
to
> separate what I had been taught from reality.  I didn't even know
it
> wasn't real, that there was another way to be that was actually
> healthier and more spiritually based.  There was incredible
pressure
> placed on the members of those churches to comply, to think and
> believe the same.  If you doubted, you lacked faith, you did not
> believe in God, and therefore could not be a part of- to be
different
> was a sin in itself.  I was so damnably brainwashed, I could not
see
> any other way.  I had a church pay for me to go to an exodus
> conference, and I went willingly because I believed I would in
fact
> go to hell if I could not change, and because I wanted God to love
me
> and for them, the people I considered my friends to accept me.  I
> stayed just as gay as ever, just more guilt-ridden and ashamed.
>
> The first time I questioned out loud with a friend of mine whether
> the bible was word for word the word of God, we both cringed,
> literally expecting some kind of terrible judgement-a bolt of
> lightning or something equally drastic.  Of course, it didn't
happen,
> and I was quite relieved.  I laugh about it now, but it took a
long
> painful journey to change those spiritually abusive beliefs.
> Of course, I became that "godless liberal" we all feared so much
as a
> result of seeking, questioning, doubting, and exploring truth.
And,
> they have rejected me, but, as a result of all that reaching out
is
> that This person my old church buddies reject now has real faith
in
> God.  I love him, I do not doubt his love for me now.  I believe
he
> is there for me always, and that he created me Lesbian- and
treasures
> his creation.
>
> There are books that explain that kind of Christianity/religiosity
in
> detail and explain what is wrong with it- "The Subtle Power of
> Spiritual Abuse", and "Toxic Faith" for example.  And, there are
> books that explain the journey to learn to think for yourself,
that
> journey into self-actualization like "Women's Ways of Knowing".
>
> To say people are forced into ex-gay ministries does not take into
> account the power of culture, the indoctrination of religion and
the
> socialization process.  I think most of us try them because we
> believe what we've been taught- that we are terrible, sinful
beings
> that will be rejected by God if we don't change.  I don't know
about
> you, but hell sounded pretty scary to me.  And, I wanted the
> acceptance of my fellow church members as well, my church family-
> that is tremendous pressure, to lose the respect of the people you
> trust and depend on.
>
> I didn't leave the ex-gay ministry because I changed my mind.  I
left
> because I gave up- realized I was not going to change- nobody else
> really had, we all still felt "lust" for our own sex (amazing how
> they always left out the tenderness, love and romance involved.)
> My attitude changes came much later, after a lot of painful soul-
> searching and prayer, and a spiritual awakening.  I'm very
grateful
> to God that I made it here, and that there is even more to come,
more
> to learn, more growth to experience.  Im grateful to know I am
loved
> by God and my prayer is that all glbt will come to know that in
their
> hearts as well.
>
> One thing that makes me really sad though, and sometimes afraid as
> well, is knowing that many of my brothers and sisters in Christ
will
> always reject and castigate me for being the creation God intended
> for me to be.  Part of me craves that acceptance even as I know I
> will never get it from most of them.  But, God loves them too, and
> there is hope.  After all, I made it out, so can they.  Love you
> guys, Pat
>
>
> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
> exexgayministry-unsubscribe@y...
>
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo!
> <http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/>  Terms of Service.
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Just curious, Norm.  Specifically, what fundamentalist doctrines did you
believe then that you no longer believe?

--Jerry in Michigan

On Mon, 03 Jun 2002 05:23:48 -0000 "nojam75" <nojam75@...> writes:
> Thanks for sharing Pat & Chris!
>
> Pat, you make an important distinction in that you didn't "decide"
> to leave ex-gay ministry, but you "gave up".  I relate very much to
>
> your experience.  Toward the end of my ex-gay experience, I had to
> deal with the feelings of being a failure and a 'gay Christian
> sinner who should know better'.  After commiting most of my
> spiritual life and identity to upholding fundamentalist doctrines
> and ex-gay theory, I felt that I was betraying my entire faith
> system when I began reconsider these commitments.
>
> What I began to realize though, was that I was not fully informed
> when I made these commitments.  Being raised in Christian
> fundamentalism, I took certain doctrines for granted without ever
> seriously learning about the history and source of such doctrines.
>
> Similarly, as a young, confused conservative Christian dealing
> with 'homosexual tendencies', I was vulnerable to any conservative
> Christian group that was willing to address the topic -- such as
> ex-
> gay ministries.  And yet, I was forced to deal with the flaws of
> fundamentalism and ex-gay theory.  Toward the end, I began to
> "give-
> up" trying to reconcile the increasingly complex and confusing
> theories behind fundamentalism and ex-gay theory.
>
> In hindsight, I view my ex-gay experience as part of my growing
> process.  In going through the ex-gay process, I applied a set of
> beliefs that didn't work out for me.  I view it as
> necessarily 'giving up' but as 'moving on'.
>
> - Norm!
>
>
>
>
>
> --- In exexgayministry@y..., "Chris H" <itschris@r...> wrote:
> > Hey Pat,
> >   Thanks for this post- your story is uncomfortably familiar to
> me!
> >   I think that one of the most damaging messages is that 'If you
> don't
> > change (your sexuality), you don't have enough faith, and are
> therefore
> > not good enough/ a failure'. That ends up with one feeling 'not
> good
> > enough for God, otherwise I would have been healed'.
> >   I too went earnestly to a Living Waters course (run by Exodus
> > ministries), and believed that I was 'truly seeking God with all
> my
> > heart'.
> >   I guess I left because, like you, I gave up. I think the
> despair
> > associated with that process is one of the most potentially
> damaging
> > outcomes- and is positively nurtured by those from whom 'help'
> and
> > 'support' have been sought. I know I, for one, am blessed to still
>
> be
> > alive. I also know now that I am not alone in that sentiment (and
>
> there
> > are many more who didn't make it.).
> >   Yes, I am happy and secure in the knowledge that God created me
> > lesbian, and the loving, faithful God I have always believed in
> would
> > have changed/healed (whatever.) me if that had genuinely been
> God's will
> > for me.
> >   My partner now tells me she thinks I should ask for a refund
> (the
> > course cost me considerably, and I made significant sacrifices to
>
> get
> > there). However, I am secure in my faith, and knowing that I am
> where I
> > need to be (and that is truly a position I spent 30-or-so years
> getting
> > to, and longed for for the greater period of that time).
> > Cheers!
> > Chris
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: patthecatwv [mailto:patthecatwv@y...]
> > Sent: Thursday, May 30, 2002 3:00 PM
> > To: exexgayministry@y...
> > Subject: [ExExGayMinistry] coercion to join ex-gay ministries?
> >
> > I think its far too simple to assume that the decision to join an
>
> ex-
> > gay ministry is one of either being forced into it, or choosing
> > entirely freely.  I know that I grew up in a dysfunctional family
>
> and
> > went to dysfunctional churches where the authority of the head of
>
> > household/preacher was all encompassing, where disagreement was
> > punished and love and acceptance withheld if there was not
> immediate
> > and total compliance.  I learned to obey, that only one way was
> > acceptable, and it wasn't mine- it was their interpretation of
> God's
> > will for me.  I really did not know how to think for myself, how
> to
> > separate what I had been taught from reality.  I didn't even know
>
> it
> > wasn't real, that there was another way to be that was actually
> > healthier and more spiritually based.  There was incredible
> pressure
> > placed on the members of those churches to comply, to think and
> > believe the same.  If you doubted, you lacked faith, you did not
> > believe in God, and therefore could not be a part of- to be
> different
> > was a sin in itself.  I was so damnably brainwashed, I could not
> see
> > any other way.  I had a church pay for me to go to an exodus
> > conference, and I went willingly because I believed I would in
> fact
> > go to hell if I could not change, and because I wanted God to love
>
> me
> > and for them, the people I considered my friends to accept me.  I
>
> > stayed just as gay as ever, just more guilt-ridden and ashamed.
> >
> > The first time I questioned out loud with a friend of mine whether
>
> > the bible was word for word the word of God, we both cringed,
> > literally expecting some kind of terrible judgement-a bolt of
> > lightning or something equally drastic.  Of course, it didn't
> happen,
> > and I was quite relieved.  I laugh about it now, but it took a
> long
> > painful journey to change those spiritually abusive beliefs.
> > Of course, I became that "godless liberal" we all feared so much
> as a
> > result of seeking, questioning, doubting, and exploring truth.
> And,
> > they have rejected me, but, as a result of all that reaching out
> is
> > that This person my old church buddies reject now has real faith
> in
> > God.  I love him, I do not doubt his love for me now.  I believe
> he
> > is there for me always, and that he created me Lesbian- and
> treasures
> > his creation.
> >
> > There are books that explain that kind of Christianity/religiosity
>
> in
> > detail and explain what is wrong with it- "The Subtle Power of
> > Spiritual Abuse", and "Toxic Faith" for example.  And, there are
> > books that explain the journey to learn to think for yourself,
> that
> > journey into self-actualization like "Women's Ways of Knowing".
> >
> > To say people are forced into ex-gay ministries does not take into
>
> > account the power of culture, the indoctrination of religion and
> the
> > socialization process.  I think most of us try them because we
> > believe what we've been taught- that we are terrible, sinful
> beings
> > that will be rejected by God if we don't change.  I don't know
> about
> > you, but hell sounded pretty scary to me.  And, I wanted the
> > acceptance of my fellow church members as well, my church family-
>
> > that is tremendous pressure, to lose the respect of the people you
>
> > trust and depend on.
> >
> > I didn't leave the ex-gay ministry because I changed my mind.  I
> left
> > because I gave up- realized I was not going to change- nobody else
>
> > really had, we all still felt "lust" for our own sex (amazing how
>
> > they always left out the tenderness, love and romance involved.)
> > My attitude changes came much later, after a lot of painful soul-
> > searching and prayer, and a spiritual awakening.  I'm very
> grateful
> > to God that I made it here, and that there is even more to come,
> more
> > to learn, more growth to experience.  Im grateful to know I am
> loved
> > by God and my prayer is that all glbt will come to know that in
> their
> > hearts as well.
> >
> > One thing that makes me really sad though, and sometimes afraid as
>
> > well, is knowing that many of my brothers and sisters in Christ
> will
> > always reject and castigate me for being the creation God intended
>
> > for me to be.  Part of me craves that acceptance even as I know I
>
> > will never get it from most of them.  But, God loves them too, and
>
> > there is hope.  After all, I made it out, so can they.  Love you
> > guys, Pat
> >
> >
> > To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
> > exexgayministry-unsubscribe@y...
> >
> >
> >
> > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo!
> > <http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/>  Terms of Service.
> >
> >
> > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
> ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor
>
> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
> exexgayministry-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
>
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
> http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>
>

________________________________________________________________
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I have already had the discussion regarding my views on
fundamentalism.  Nor is this an appropriate forum to get bogged down
into all the nitty-gritty theological details.

What is more relevant is the nature of fundamentalism.  The ultimate
goal of fundamentalism is to defend doctrine while attacking all
alternative ideas.  Similarly, the ex-gay movement seems to be about
pressuring participants to defend ex-gay theory while attacking any
alternative ideas about sexuality.  Both movements, fundamentalism
and the ex-gay sub-movement, do not empower their participants, but
seek to ensure that their participants blindly maintain doctrine.

- Norm!



--- In exexgayministry@y..., BearJER@j... wrote:
> Just curious, Norm.  Specifically, what fundamentalist doctrines
did you
> believe then that you no longer believe?
>
> --Jerry in Michigan
>
> On Mon, 03 Jun 2002 05:23:48 -0000 "nojam75" <nojam75@y...> writes:
> > Thanks for sharing Pat & Chris!
> >
> > Pat, you make an important distinction in that you
didn't "decide"
> > to leave ex-gay ministry, but you "gave up".  I relate very much
to
> >
> > your experience.  Toward the end of my ex-gay experience, I had
to
> > deal with the feelings of being a failure and a 'gay Christian
> > sinner who should know better'.  After commiting most of my
> > spiritual life and identity to upholding fundamentalist
doctrines
> > and ex-gay theory, I felt that I was betraying my entire faith
> > system when I began reconsider these commitments.
> >
> > What I began to realize though, was that I was not fully
informed
> > when I made these commitments.  Being raised in Christian
> > fundamentalism, I took certain doctrines for granted without
ever
> > seriously learning about the history and source of such
doctrines.
> >
> > Similarly, as a young, confused conservative Christian dealing
> > with 'homosexual tendencies', I was vulnerable to any
conservative
> > Christian group that was willing to address the topic -- such as
> > ex-
> > gay ministries.  And yet, I was forced to deal with the flaws of
> > fundamentalism and ex-gay theory.  Toward the end, I began to
> > "give-
> > up" trying to reconcile the increasingly complex and confusing
> > theories behind fundamentalism and ex-gay theory.
> >
> > In hindsight, I view my ex-gay experience as part of my growing
> > process.  In going through the ex-gay process, I applied a set
of
> > beliefs that didn't work out for me.  I view it as
> > necessarily 'giving up' but as 'moving on'.
> >
> > - Norm!
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > --- In exexgayministry@y..., "Chris H" <itschris@r...> wrote:
> > > Hey Pat,
> > >   Thanks for this post- your story is uncomfortably familiar
to
> > me!
> > >   I think that one of the most damaging messages is that 'If
you
> > don't
> > > change (your sexuality), you don't have enough faith, and are
> > therefore
> > > not good enough/ a failure'. That ends up with one
feeling 'not
> > good
> > > enough for God, otherwise I would have been healed'.
> > >   I too went earnestly to a Living Waters course (run by Exodus
> > > ministries), and believed that I was 'truly seeking God with
all
> > my
> > > heart'.
> > >   I guess I left because, like you, I gave up. I think the
> > despair
> > > associated with that process is one of the most potentially
> > damaging
> > > outcomes- and is positively nurtured by those from whom 'help'
> > and
> > > 'support' have been sought. I know I, for one, am blessed to
still
> >
> > be
> > > alive. I also know now that I am not alone in that sentiment
(and
> >
> > there
> > > are many more who didn't make it.).
> > >   Yes, I am happy and secure in the knowledge that God created
me
> > > lesbian, and the loving, faithful God I have always believed
in
> > would
> > > have changed/healed (whatever.) me if that had genuinely been
> > God's will
> > > for me.
> > >   My partner now tells me she thinks I should ask for a refund
> > (the
> > > course cost me considerably, and I made significant sacrifices
to
> >
> > get
> > > there). However, I am secure in my faith, and knowing that I
am
> > where I
> > > need to be (and that is truly a position I spent 30-or-so
years
> > getting
> > > to, and longed for for the greater period of that time).
> > > Cheers!
> > > Chris
> > >
> > > -----Original Message-----
> > > From: patthecatwv [mailto:patthecatwv@y...]
> > > Sent: Thursday, May 30, 2002 3:00 PM
> > > To: exexgayministry@y...
> > > Subject: [ExExGayMinistry] coercion to join ex-gay ministries?
> > >
> > > I think its far too simple to assume that the decision to join
an
> >
> > ex-
> > > gay ministry is one of either being forced into it, or
choosing
> > > entirely freely.  I know that I grew up in a dysfunctional
family
> >
> > and
> > > went to dysfunctional churches where the authority of the head
of
> >
> > > household/preacher was all encompassing, where disagreement
was
> > > punished and love and acceptance withheld if there was not
> > immediate
> > > and total compliance.  I learned to obey, that only one way
was
> > > acceptable, and it wasn't mine- it was their interpretation of
> > God's
> > > will for me.  I really did not know how to think for myself,
how
> > to
> > > separate what I had been taught from reality.  I didn't even
know
> >
> > it
> > > wasn't real, that there was another way to be that was
actually
> > > healthier and more spiritually based.  There was incredible
> > pressure
> > > placed on the members of those churches to comply, to think
and
> > > believe the same.  If you doubted, you lacked faith, you did
not
> > > believe in God, and therefore could not be a part of- to be
> > different
> > > was a sin in itself.  I was so damnably brainwashed, I could
not
> > see
> > > any other way.  I had a church pay for me to go to an exodus
> > > conference, and I went willingly because I believed I would in
> > fact
> > > go to hell if I could not change, and because I wanted God to
love
> >
> > me
> > > and for them, the people I considered my friends to accept
me.  I
> >
> > > stayed just as gay as ever, just more guilt-ridden and ashamed.
> > >
> > > The first time I questioned out loud with a friend of mine
whether
> >
> > > the bible was word for word the word of God, we both cringed,
> > > literally expecting some kind of terrible judgement-a bolt of
> > > lightning or something equally drastic.  Of course, it didn't
> > happen,
> > > and I was quite relieved.  I laugh about it now, but it took a
> > long
> > > painful journey to change those spiritually abusive beliefs.
> > > Of course, I became that "godless liberal" we all feared so
much
> > as a
> > > result of seeking, questioning, doubting, and exploring truth.
> > And,
> > > they have rejected me, but, as a result of all that reaching
out
> > is
> > > that This person my old church buddies reject now has real
faith
> > in
> > > God.  I love him, I do not doubt his love for me now.  I
believe
> > he
> > > is there for me always, and that he created me Lesbian- and
> > treasures
> > > his creation.
> > >
> > > There are books that explain that kind of
Christianity/religiosity
> >
> > in
> > > detail and explain what is wrong with it- "The Subtle Power of
> > > Spiritual Abuse", and "Toxic Faith" for example.  And, there
are
> > > books that explain the journey to learn to think for yourself,
> > that
> > > journey into self-actualization like "Women's Ways of
Knowing".
> > >
> > > To say people are forced into ex-gay ministries does not take
into
> >
> > > account the power of culture, the indoctrination of religion
and
> > the
> > > socialization process.  I think most of us try them because we
> > > believe what we've been taught- that we are terrible, sinful
> > beings
> > > that will be rejected by God if we don't change.  I don't know
> > about
> > > you, but hell sounded pretty scary to me.  And, I wanted the
> > > acceptance of my fellow church members as well, my church
family-
> >
> > > that is tremendous pressure, to lose the respect of the people
you
> >
> > > trust and depend on.
> > >
> > > I didn't leave the ex-gay ministry because I changed my mind.
I
> > left
> > > because I gave up- realized I was not going to change- nobody
else
> >
> > > really had, we all still felt "lust" for our own sex (amazing
how
> >
> > > they always left out the tenderness, love and romance
involved.)
> > > My attitude changes came much later, after a lot of painful
soul-
> > > searching and prayer, and a spiritual awakening.  I'm very
> > grateful
> > > to God that I made it here, and that there is even more to
come,
> > more
> > > to learn, more growth to experience.  Im grateful to know I am
> > loved
> > > by God and my prayer is that all glbt will come to know that
in
> > their
> > > hearts as well.
> > >
> > > One thing that makes me really sad though, and sometimes
afraid as
> >
> > > well, is knowing that many of my brothers and sisters in
Christ
> > will
> > > always reject and castigate me for being the creation God
intended
> >
> > > for me to be.  Part of me craves that acceptance even as I
know I
> >
> > > will never get it from most of them.  But, God loves them too,
and
> >
> > > there is hope.  After all, I made it out, so can they.  Love
you
> > > guys, Pat
> > >
> > >
> > > To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
> > > exexgayministry-unsubscribe@y...
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo!
> > > <http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/>  Terms of Service.
> > >
> > >
> > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> >
> >
> > ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor
> >
> > To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
> > exexgayministry-unsubscribe@y...
> >
> >
> >
> > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
> > http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
> >
> >
> >
>
> ________________________________________________________________
> GET INTERNET ACCESS FROM JUNO!
> Juno offers FREE or PREMIUM Internet access for less!
> Join Juno today!  For your FREE software, visit:
> http://dl.www.juno.com/get/web/.

--- In exexgayministry@y..., "nojam75" <nojam75@y...> wrote:
>Both movements, fundamentalism
> and the ex-gay sub-movement, do not empower their participants, but
> seek to ensure that their participants blindly maintain doctrine.
>
> - Norm!

Norm, THAT is a great observation!

Maintaining their version of "pure doctrine" seems to be the goal.
Never mind if they insult the intelligence of every other person
along the way.

"My mind's made up...don't confuse me with facts."

==========================

Norm, I was brought up in a church which prided itself in being
"fundamental" to the gospel.  Recently, there has been a shift in that
church in stating that they are primarily evangelical, rather than
wanting to be known by the term fundmentalists.  I just think it is
unfortunate that the meanings of words actually get changed (kind of like
in pscyhology - social constructionism).

There is nothing at all wrong with fundamental Christianity as it means
you believe in God and what he says in the Bible, though we do differ on
certain applications of scripture.  The fundamentals such as Jesus died
for our sins, rose again, etc. are pretty much solid to our faith and
have to be or we couldn't consider ourselves Christians.  I am just sorry
the definitions of words get messed up.  The secular media actually did
that to us.  The call RADICAL muslims like the suicide bombers
FUNDAMENTALISTS.  A better choice of description would be LEGALISTS,
RADICALS, HATE-MONGERS, whatever.  I dislike the fact that we allow
non-Christian media types to change the definitions of words.  Do you get
my drift?  We are now mis-using the term FUNDAMENTAL completely from its
original definition, and that is fact!!

Thanks for listening,

Jerry Boor

On Tue, 04 Jun 2002 07:03:26 -0000 "nojam75" <nojam75@...> writes:
> I have already had the discussion regarding my views on
> fundamentalism.  Nor is this an appropriate forum to get bogged down
>
> into all the nitty-gritty theological details.
>
> What is more relevant is the nature of fundamentalism.  The ultimate
>
> goal of fundamentalism is to defend doctrine while attacking all
> alternative ideas.  Similarly, the ex-gay movement seems to be about
>
> pressuring participants to defend ex-gay theory while attacking any
>
> alternative ideas about sexuality.  Both movements, fundamentalism
> and the ex-gay sub-movement, do not empower their participants, but
>
> seek to ensure that their participants blindly maintain doctrine.
>
> - Norm!
>
>
>
> --- In exexgayministry@y..., BearJER@j... wrote:
> > Just curious, Norm.  Specifically, what fundamentalist doctrines
> did you
> > believe then that you no longer believe?
> >
> > --Jerry in Michigan
> >
> > On Mon, 03 Jun 2002 05:23:48 -0000 "nojam75" <nojam75@y...>
> writes:
> > > Thanks for sharing Pat & Chris!
> > >
> > > Pat, you make an important distinction in that you
> didn't "decide"
> > > to leave ex-gay ministry, but you "gave up".  I relate very much
>
> to
> > >
> > > your experience.  Toward the end of my ex-gay experience, I had
>
> to
> > > deal with the feelings of being a failure and a 'gay Christian
> > > sinner who should know better'.  After commiting most of my
> > > spiritual life and identity to upholding fundamentalist
> doctrines
> > > and ex-gay theory, I felt that I was betraying my entire faith
> > > system when I began reconsider these commitments.
> > >
> > > What I began to realize though, was that I was not fully
> informed
> > > when I made these commitments.  Being raised in Christian
> > > fundamentalism, I took certain doctrines for granted without
> ever
> > > seriously learning about the history and source of such
> doctrines.
> > >
> > > Similarly, as a young, confused conservative Christian dealing
> > > with 'homosexual tendencies', I was vulnerable to any
> conservative
> > > Christian group that was willing to address the topic -- such as
>
> > > ex-
> > > gay ministries.  And yet, I was forced to deal with the flaws of
>
> > > fundamentalism and ex-gay theory.  Toward the end, I began to
> > > "give-
> > > up" trying to reconcile the increasingly complex and confusing
> > > theories behind fundamentalism and ex-gay theory.
> > >
> > > In hindsight, I view my ex-gay experience as part of my growing
>
> > > process.  In going through the ex-gay process, I applied a set
> of
> > > beliefs that didn't work out for me.  I view it as
> > > necessarily 'giving up' but as 'moving on'.
> > >
> > > - Norm!
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > --- In exexgayministry@y..., "Chris H" <itschris@r...> wrote:
> > > > Hey Pat,
> > > >   Thanks for this post- your story is uncomfortably familiar
> to
> > > me!
> > > >   I think that one of the most damaging messages is that 'If
> you
> > > don't
> > > > change (your sexuality), you don't have enough faith, and are
>
> > > therefore
> > > > not good enough/ a failure'. That ends up with one
> feeling 'not
> > > good
> > > > enough for God, otherwise I would have been healed'.
> > > >   I too went earnestly to a Living Waters course (run by
> Exodus
> > > > ministries), and believed that I was 'truly seeking God with
> all
> > > my
> > > > heart'.
> > > >   I guess I left because, like you, I gave up. I think the
> > > despair
> > > > associated with that process is one of the most potentially
> > > damaging
> > > > outcomes- and is positively nurtured by those from whom 'help'
>
> > > and
> > > > 'support' have been sought. I know I, for one, am blessed to
> still
> > >
> > > be
> > > > alive. I also know now that I am not alone in that sentiment
> (and
> > >
> > > there
> > > > are many more who didn't make it.).
> > > >   Yes, I am happy and secure in the knowledge that God created
>
> me
> > > > lesbian, and the loving, faithful God I have always believed
> in
> > > would
> > > > have changed/healed (whatever.) me if that had genuinely been
>
> > > God's will
> > > > for me.
> > > >   My partner now tells me she thinks I should ask for a refund
>
> > > (the
> > > > course cost me considerably, and I made significant sacrifices
>
> to
> > >
> > > get
> > > > there). However, I am secure in my faith, and knowing that I
> am
> > > where I
> > > > need to be (and that is truly a position I spent 30-or-so
> years
> > > getting
> > > > to, and longed for for the greater period of that time).
> > > > Cheers!
> > > > Chris
> > > >
> > > > -----Original Message-----
> > > > From: patthecatwv [mailto:patthecatwv@y...]
> > > > Sent: Thursday, May 30, 2002 3:00 PM
> > > > To: exexgayministry@y...
> > > > Subject: [ExExGayMinistry] coercion to join ex-gay
> ministries?
> > > >
> > > > I think its far too simple to assume that the decision to join
>
> an
> > >
> > > ex-
> > > > gay ministry is one of either being forced into it, or
> choosing
> > > > entirely freely.  I know that I grew up in a dysfunctional
> family
> > >
> > > and
> > > > went to dysfunctional churches where the authority of the head
>
> of
> > >
> > > > household/preacher was all encompassing, where disagreement
> was
> > > > punished and love and acceptance withheld if there was not
> > > immediate
> > > > and total compliance.  I learned to obey, that only one way
> was
> > > > acceptable, and it wasn't mine- it was their interpretation of
>
> > > God's
> > > > will for me.  I really did not know how to think for myself,
> how
> > > to
> > > > separate what I had been taught from reality.  I didn't even
> know
> > >
> > > it
> > > > wasn't real, that there was another way to be that was
> actually
> > > > healthier and more spiritually based.  There was incredible
> > > pressure
> > > > placed on the members of those churches to comply, to think
> and
> > > > believe the same.  If you doubted, you lacked faith, you did
> not
> > > > believe in God, and therefore could not be a part of- to be
> > > different
> > > > was a sin in itself.  I was so damnably brainwashed, I could
> not
> > > see
> > > > any other way.  I had a church pay for me to go to an exodus
> > > > conference, and I went willingly because I believed I would in
>
> > > fact
> > > > go to hell if I could not change, and because I wanted God to
>
> love
> > >
> > > me
> > > > and for them, the people I considered my friends to accept
> me.  I
> > >
> > > > stayed just as gay as ever, just more guilt-ridden and
> ashamed.
> > > >
> > > > The first time I questioned out loud with a friend of mine
> whether
> > >
> > > > the bible was word for word the word of God, we both cringed,
>
> > > > literally expecting some kind of terrible judgement-a bolt of
>
> > > > lightning or something equally drastic.  Of course, it didn't
>
> > > happen,
> > > > and I was quite relieved.  I laugh about it now, but it took a
>
> > > long
> > > > painful journey to change those spiritually abusive beliefs.
>
> > > > Of course, I became that "godless liberal" we all feared so
> much
> > > as a
> > > > result of seeking, questioning, doubting, and exploring truth.
>
> > > And,
> > > > they have rejected me, but, as a result of all that reaching
> out
> > > is
> > > > that This person my old church buddies reject now has real
> faith
> > > in
> > > > God.  I love him, I do not doubt his love for me now.  I
> believe
> > > he
> > > > is there for me always, and that he created me Lesbian- and
> > > treasures
> > > > his creation.
> > > >
> > > > There are books that explain that kind of
> Christianity/religiosity
> > >
> > > in
> > > > detail and explain what is wrong with it- "The Subtle Power of
>
> > > > Spiritual Abuse", and "Toxic Faith" for example.  And, there
> are
> > > > books that explain the journey to learn to think for yourself,
>
> > > that
> > > > journey into self-actualization like "Women's Ways of
> Knowing".
> > > >
> > > > To say people are forced into ex-gay ministries does not take
>
> into
> > >
> > > > account the power of culture, the indoctrination of religion
> and
> > > the
> > > > socialization process.  I think most of us try them because we
>
> > > > believe what we've been taught- that we are terrible, sinful
> > > beings
> > > > that will be rejected by God if we don't change.  I don't know
>
> > > about
> > > > you, but hell sounded pretty scary to me.  And, I wanted the
> > > > acceptance of my fellow church members as well, my church
> family-
> > >
> > > > that is tremendous pressure, to lose the respect of the people
>
> you
> > >
> > > > trust and depend on.
> > > >
> > > > I didn't leave the ex-gay ministry because I changed my mind.
>
> I
> > > left
> > > > because I gave up- realized I was not going to change- nobody
>
> else
> > >
> > > > really had, we all still felt "lust" for our own sex (amazing
>
> how
> > >
> > > > they always left out the tenderness, love and romance
> involved.)
> > > > My attitude changes came much later, after a lot of painful
> soul-
> > > > searching and prayer, and a spiritual awakening.  I'm very
> > > grateful
> > > > to God that I made it here, and that there is even more to
> come,
> > > more
> > > > to learn, more growth to experience.  Im grateful to know I am
>
> > > loved
> > > > by God and my prayer is that all glbt will come to know that
> in
> > > their
> > > > hearts as well.
> > > >
> > > > One thing that makes me really sad though, and sometimes
> afraid as
> > >
> > > > well, is knowing that many of my brothers and sisters in
> Christ
> > > will
> > > > always reject and castigate me for being the creation God
> intended
> > >
> > > > for me to be.  Part of me craves that acceptance even as I
> know I
> > >
> > > > will never get it from most of them.  But, God loves them too,
>
> and
> > >
> > > > there is hope.  After all, I made it out, so can they.  Love
> you
> > > > guys, Pat
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
> > > > exexgayministry-unsubscribe@y...
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo!
> > > > <http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/>  Terms of Service.
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According to Bruce Bawer's book, Stealing Jesus, the
term 'fundamentalist' was coined in 1920 by the editor of a Baptist
publication to refer to the anti-modernist group of Baptists.  When
I use the term, I refer to the fundamentalist vs. modernist debate
within Christianity regarding the approaches to understanding the
Bible and the message of Christianity.  I would consider myself a
fundamentalist to modernist convert.

I agree that since 1920 the use of the term, 'fundamentalist', has
been expanded to include extremists in other religions such as those
within Islam.  In fact, since 9/11 there have been bin Laden/Falwell
and al-Qaida/Religious-Right comparisons made.  So, I understand
why 'fundamentalist' is a touchy term.  Maybe I should
use 'theologically-conservative Christian' instead.

On the other hand though, promoting the idea of a God who creates
and damns people to eternal hell over petty theological differences
seems like a form of terrorism to me.  Bishop John Shelby Spong even
calls evangelism a form of violence.  So, I've never quite
understood the distinction some would like to make between
Evangelism and what you call 'Legalism'.  Generally, both are rooted
in fundamentalism and fear.  However, Evangelism was developed as
the more marketable form of fundamentalism in our consumer culture.
It's interesting that although hell is an essential doctrine of
Evangelism, it seems to be rarely mentioned -- kinda like the way a
drug commercial downplays the potential side effects.

Why would we only call a gay-basher a hate-monger?  How is telling a
gay person to go to hell any worse than telling a non-Christian to
go to hell?  I know, I know "It's not me -- IT'S GOD'S WORD.
Therefore, I'm not responsible for the message."

- Norm!



--- In exexgayministry@y..., BearJER@j... wrote:
> Norm, I was brought up in a church which prided itself in being
> "fundamental" to the gospel.  Recently, there has been a shift in
that
> church in stating that they are primarily evangelical, rather than
> wanting to be known by the term fundmentalists.  I just think it is
> unfortunate that the meanings of words actually get changed (kind
of like
> in pscyhology - social constructionism).
>
> There is nothing at all wrong with fundamental Christianity as it
means
> you believe in God and what he says in the Bible, though we do
differ on
> certain applications of scripture.  The fundamentals such as Jesus
died
> for our sins, rose again, etc. are pretty much solid to our faith
and
> have to be or we couldn't consider ourselves Christians.  I am
just sorry
> the definitions of words get messed up.  The secular media
actually did
> that to us.  The call RADICAL muslims like the suicide bombers
> FUNDAMENTALISTS.  A better choice of description would be
LEGALISTS,
> RADICALS, HATE-MONGERS, whatever.  I dislike the fact that we allow
> non-Christian media types to change the definitions of words.  Do
you get
> my drift?  We are now mis-using the term FUNDAMENTAL completely
from its
> original definition, and that is fact!!
>
> Thanks for listening,
>
> Jerry Boor
>
> On Tue, 04 Jun 2002 07:03:26 -0000 "nojam75" <nojam75@y...> writes:
> > I have already had the discussion regarding my views on
> > fundamentalism.  Nor is this an appropriate forum to get bogged
down
> >
> > into all the nitty-gritty theological details.
> >
> > What is more relevant is the nature of fundamentalism.  The
ultimate
> >
> > goal of fundamentalism is to defend doctrine while attacking all
> > alternative ideas.  Similarly, the ex-gay movement seems to be
about
> >
> > pressuring participants to defend ex-gay theory while attacking
any
> >
> > alternative ideas about sexuality.  Both movements,
fundamentalism
> > and the ex-gay sub-movement, do not empower their participants,
but
> >
> > seek to ensure that their participants blindly maintain
doctrine.
> >
> > - Norm!
> >
> >
> >
> > --- In exexgayministry@y..., BearJER@j... wrote:
> > > Just curious, Norm.  Specifically, what fundamentalist
doctrines
> > did you
> > > believe then that you no longer believe?
> > >
> > > --Jerry in Michigan
> > >
> > > On Mon, 03 Jun 2002 05:23:48 -0000 "nojam75" <nojam75@y...>
> > writes:
> > > > Thanks for sharing Pat & Chris!
> > > >
> > > > Pat, you make an important distinction in that you
> > didn't "decide"
> > > > to leave ex-gay ministry, but you "gave up".  I relate very
much
> >
> > to
> > > >
> > > > your experience.  Toward the end of my ex-gay experience, I
had
> >
> > to
> > > > deal with the feelings of being a failure and a 'gay
Christian
> > > > sinner who should know better'.  After commiting most of my
> > > > spiritual life and identity to upholding fundamentalist
> > doctrines
> > > > and ex-gay theory, I felt that I was betraying my entire
faith
> > > > system when I began reconsider these commitments.
> > > >
> > > > What I began to realize though, was that I was not fully
> > informed
> > > > when I made these commitments.  Being raised in Christian
> > > > fundamentalism, I took certain doctrines for granted without
> > ever
> > > > seriously learning about the history and source of such
> > doctrines.
> > > >
> > > > Similarly, as a young, confused conservative Christian
dealing
> > > > with 'homosexual tendencies', I was vulnerable to any
> > conservative
> > > > Christian group that was willing to address the topic --
such as
> >
> > > > ex-
> > > > gay ministries.  And yet, I was forced to deal with the
flaws of
> >
> > > > fundamentalism and ex-gay theory.  Toward the end, I began
to
> > > > "give-
> > > > up" trying to reconcile the increasingly complex and
confusing
> > > > theories behind fundamentalism and ex-gay theory.
> > > >
> > > > In hindsight, I view my ex-gay experience as part of my
growing
> >
> > > > process.  In going through the ex-gay process, I applied a
set
> > of
> > > > beliefs that didn't work out for me.  I view it as
> > > > necessarily 'giving up' but as 'moving on'.
> > > >
> > > > - Norm!
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > --- In exexgayministry@y..., "Chris H" <itschris@r...> wrote:
> > > > > Hey Pat,
> > > > >   Thanks for this post- your story is uncomfortably
familiar
> > to
> > > > me!
> > > > >   I think that one of the most damaging messages is
that 'If
> > you
> > > > don't
> > > > > change (your sexuality), you don't have enough faith, and
are
> >
> > > > therefore
> > > > > not good enough/ a failure'. That ends up with one
> > feeling 'not
> > > > good
> > > > > enough for God, otherwise I would have been healed'.
> > > > >   I too went earnestly to a Living Waters course (run by
> > Exodus
> > > > > ministries), and believed that I was 'truly seeking God
with
> > all
> > > > my
> > > > > heart'.
> > > > >   I guess I left because, like you, I gave up. I think the
> > > > despair
> > > > > associated with that process is one of the most
potentially
> > > > damaging
> > > > > outcomes- and is positively nurtured by those from
whom 'help'
> >
> > > > and
> > > > > 'support' have been sought. I know I, for one, am blessed
to
> > still
> > > >
> > > > be
> > > > > alive. I also know now that I am not alone in that
sentiment
> > (and
> > > >
> > > > there
> > > > > are many more who didn't make it.).
> > > > >   Yes, I am happy and secure in the knowledge that God
created
> >
> > me
> > > > > lesbian, and the loving, faithful God I have always
believed
> > in
> > > > would
> > > > > have changed/healed (whatever.) me if that had genuinely
been
> >
> > > > God's will
> > > > > for me.
> > > > >   My partner now tells me she thinks I should ask for a
refund
> >
> > > > (the
> > > > > course cost me considerably, and I made significant
sacrifices
> >
> > to
> > > >
> > > > get
> > > > > there). However, I am secure in my faith, and knowing that
I
> > am
> > > > where I
> > > > > need to be (and that is truly a position I spent 30-or-so
> > years
> > > > getting
> > > > > to, and longed for for the greater period of that time).
> > > > > Cheers!
> > > > > Chris
> > > > >
> > > > > -----Original Message-----
> > > > > From: patthecatwv [mailto:patthecatwv@y...]
> > > > > Sent: Thursday, May 30, 2002 3:00 PM
> > > > > To: exexgayministry@y...
> > > > > Subject: [ExExGayMinistry] coercion to join ex-gay
> > ministries?
> > > > >
> > > > > I think its far too simple to assume that the decision to
join
> >
> > an
> > > >
> > > > ex-
> > > > > gay ministry is one of either being forced into it, or
> > choosing
> > > > > entirely freely.  I know that I grew up in a dysfunctional
> > family
> > > >
> > > > and
> > > > > went to dysfunctional churches where the authority of the
head
> >
> > of
> > > >
> > > > > household/preacher was all encompassing, where
disagreement
> > was
> > > > > punished and love and acceptance withheld if there was not
> > > > immediate
> > > > > and total compliance.  I learned to obey, that only one
way
> > was
> > > > > acceptable, and it wasn't mine- it was their
interpretation of
> >
> > > > God's
> > > > > will for me.  I really did not know how to think for
myself,
> > how
> > > > to
> > > > > separate what I had been taught from reality.  I didn't
even
> > know
> > > >
> > > > it
> > > > > wasn't real, that there was another way to be that was
> > actually
> > > > > healthier and more spiritually based.  There was
incredible
> > > > pressure
> > > > > placed on the members of those churches to comply, to
think
> > and
> > > > > believe the same.  If you doubted, you lacked faith, you
did
> > not
> > > > > believe in God, and therefore could not be a part of- to
be
> > > > different
> > > > > was a sin in itself.  I was so damnably brainwashed, I
could
> > not
> > > > see
> > > > > any other way.  I had a church pay for me to go to an
exodus
> > > > > conference, and I went willingly because I believed I
would in
> >
> > > > fact
> > > > > go to hell if I could not change, and because I wanted God
to
> >
> > love
> > > >
> > > > me
> > > > > and for them, the people I considered my friends to accept
> > me.  I
> > > >
> > > > > stayed just as gay as ever, just more guilt-ridden and
> > ashamed.
> > > > >
> > > > > The first time I questioned out loud with a friend of mine
> > whether
> > > >
> > > > > the bible was word for word the word of God, we both
cringed,
> >
> > > > > literally expecting some kind of terrible judgement-a bolt
of
> >
> > > > > lightning or something equally drastic.  Of course, it
didn't
> >
> > > > happen,
> > > > > and I was quite relieved.  I laugh about it now, but it
took a
> >
> > > > long
> > > > > painful journey to change those spiritually abusive
beliefs.
> >
> > > > > Of course, I became that "godless liberal" we all feared
so
> > much
> > > > as a
> > > > > result of seeking, questioning, doubting, and exploring
truth.
> >
> > > > And,
> > > > > they have rejected me, but, as a result of all that
reaching
> > out
> > > > is
> > > > > that This person my old church buddies reject now has real
> > faith
> > > > in
> > > > > God.  I love him, I do not doubt his love for me now.  I
> > believe
> > > > he
> > > > > is there for me always, and that he created me Lesbian-
and
> > > > treasures
> > > > > his creation.
> > > > >
> > > > > There are books that explain that kind of
> > Christianity/religiosity
> > > >
> > > > in
> > > > > detail and explain what is wrong with it- "The Subtle
Power of
> >
> > > > > Spiritual Abuse", and "Toxic Faith" for example.  And,
there
> > are
> > > > > books that explain the journey to learn to think for
yourself,
> >
> > > > that
> > > > > journey into self-actualization like "Women's Ways of
> > Knowing".
> > > > >
> > > > > To say people are forced into ex-gay ministries does not
take
> >
> > into
> > > >
> > > > > account the power of culture, the indoctrination of
religion
> > and
> > > > the
> > > > > socialization process.  I think most of us try them
because we
> >
> > > > > believe what we've been taught- that we are terrible,
sinful
> > > > beings
> > > > > that will be rejected by God if we don't change.  I don't
know
> >
> > > > about
> > > > > you, but hell sounded pretty scary to me.  And, I wanted
the
> > > > > acceptance of my fellow church members as well, my church
> > family-
> > > >
> > > > > that is tremendous pressure, to lose the respect of the
people
> >
> > you
> > > >
> > > > > trust and depend on.
> > > > >
> > > > > I didn't leave the ex-gay ministry because I changed my
mind.
> >
> > I
> > > > left
> > > > > because I gave up- realized I was not going to change-
nobody
> >
> > else
> > > >
> > > > > really had, we all still felt "lust" for our own sex
(amazing
> >
> > how
> > > >
> > > > > they always left out the tenderness, love and romance
> > involved.)
> > > > > My attitude changes came much later, after a lot of
painful
> > soul-
> > > > > searching and prayer, and a spiritual awakening.  I'm very
> > > > grateful
> > > > > to God that I made it here, and that there is even more to
> > come,
> > > > more
> > > > > to learn, more growth to experience.  Im grateful to know
I am
> >
> > > > loved
> > > > > by God and my prayer is that all glbt will come to know
that
> > in
> > > > their
> > > > > hearts as well.
> > > > >
> > > > > One thing that makes me really sad though, and sometimes
> > afraid as
> > > >
> > > > > well, is knowing that many of my brothers and sisters in
> > Christ
> > > > will
> > > > > always reject and castigate me for being the creation God
> > intended
> > > >
> > > > > for me to be.  Part of me craves that acceptance even as I
> > know I
> > > >
> > > > > will never get it from most of them.  But, God loves them
too,
> >
> > and
> > > >
> > > > > there is hope.  After all, I made it out, so can they.
Love
> > you
> > > > > guys, Pat
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
> > > > > exexgayministry-unsubscribe@y...
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo!
> > > > > <http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/>  Terms of Service.
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> > > >
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On Thu, 06 Jun 2002 04:53:34 -0000 "nojam75" <nojam75@...> writes:

Bishop John Shelby Spong even calls evangelism a form of violence.  So,
I've never quite
understood the distinction some would like to make between Evangelism and
what you call Legalism'.  Generally, both are rooted in fundamentalism
and fear.  However, Evangelism was developed as the more marketable form
of fundamentalism in our consumer culture.

REPLY:  Norm, I wouldn't quibble with you over the some of the terms too
much, but I have to respectfully disagree with you and Spong on the true
meaning of evangelism.  That term comes from a Greek word which means to
take the gospel to the world.  That is what Jesus said, "Go into all the
world and preach the gospel to every person."  That is evangelism in its
purest form, not spreading petty doctrines, but spreading the good news
that Jesus came into the world to save us.  So, sorry, Bishop or no
Bishop, Spong's statement about evangelism being violent doesn't make
biblical sense to me.  That would be the same thing as saying Jesus
himself was violent because he very much taught Christians to be
evangelistic.

Jerry


>
>
> --- In exexgayministry@y..., BearJER@j... wrote:
> > Norm, I was brought up in a church which prided itself in being
> > "fundamental" to the gospel.  Recently, there has been a shift in
>
> that
> > church in stating that they are primarily evangelical, rather
> than
> > wanting to be known by the term fundmentalists.  I just think it
> is
> > unfortunate that the meanings of words actually get changed (kind
>
> of like
> > in pscyhology - social constructionism).
> >
> > There is nothing at all wrong with fundamental Christianity as it
>
> means
> > you believe in God and what he says in the Bible, though we do
> differ on
> > certain applications of scripture.  The fundamentals such as Jesus
>
> died
> > for our sins, rose again, etc. are pretty much solid to our faith
>
> and
> > have to be or we couldn't consider ourselves Christians.  I am
> just sorry
> > the definitions of words get messed up.  The secular media
> actually did
> > that to us.  The call RADICAL muslims like the suicide bombers
> > FUNDAMENTALISTS.  A better choice of description would be
> LEGALISTS,
> > RADICALS, HATE-MONGERS, whatever.  I dislike the fact that we
> allow
> > non-Christian media types to change the definitions of words.  Do
>
> you get
> > my drift?  We are now mis-using the term FUNDAMENTAL completely
> from its
> > original definition, and that is fact!!
> >
> > Thanks for listening,
> >
> > Jerry Boor
> >
> > On Tue, 04 Jun 2002 07:03:26 -0000 "nojam75" <nojam75@y...>
> writes:
> > > I have already had the discussion regarding my views on
> > > fundamentalism.  Nor is this an appropriate forum to get bogged
>
> down
> > >
> > > into all the nitty-gritty theological details.
> > >
> > > What is more relevant is the nature of fundamentalism.  The
> ultimate
> > >
> > > goal of fundamentalism is to defend doctrine while attacking all
>
> > > alternative ideas.  Similarly, the ex-gay movement seems to be
> about
> > >
> > > pressuring participants to defend ex-gay theory while attacking
>
> any
> > >
> > > alternative ideas about sexuality.  Both movements,
> fundamentalism
> > > and the ex-gay sub-movement, do not empower their participants,
>
> but
> > >
> > > seek to ensure that their participants blindly maintain
> doctrine.
> > >
> > > - Norm!
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > --- In exexgayministry@y..., BearJER@j... wrote:
> > > > Just curious, Norm.  Specifically, what fundamentalist
> doctrines
> > > did you
> > > > believe then that you no longer believe?
> > > >
> > > > --Jerry in Michigan
> > > >
> > > > On Mon, 03 Jun 2002 05:23:48 -0000 "nojam75" <nojam75@y...>
> > > writes:
> > > > > Thanks for sharing Pat & Chris!
> > > > >
> > > > > Pat, you make an important distinction in that you
> > > didn't "decide"
> > > > > to leave ex-gay ministry, but you "gave up".  I relate very
>
> much
> > >
> > > to
> > > > >
> > > > > your experience.  Toward the end of my ex-gay experience, I
>
> had
> > >
> > > to
> > > > > deal with the feelings of being a failure and a 'gay
> Christian
> > > > > sinner who should know better'.  After commiting most of my
>
> > > > > spiritual life and identity to upholding fundamentalist
> > > doctrines
> > > > > and ex-gay theory, I felt that I was betraying my entire
> faith
> > > > > system when I began reconsider these commitments.
> > > > >
> > > > > What I began to realize though, was that I was not fully
> > > informed
> > > > > when I made these commitments.  Being raised in Christian
> > > > > fundamentalism, I took certain doctrines for granted without
>
> > > ever
> > > > > seriously learning about the history and source of such
> > > doctrines.
> > > > >
> > > > > Similarly, as a young, confused conservative Christian
> dealing
> > > > > with 'homosexual tendencies', I was vulnerable to any
> > > conservative
> > > > > Christian group that was willing to address the topic --
> such as
> > >
> > > > > ex-
> > > > > gay ministries.  And yet, I was forced to deal with the
> flaws of
> > >
> > > > > fundamentalism and ex-gay theory.  Toward the end, I began
> to
> > > > > "give-
> > > > > up" trying to reconcile the increasingly complex and
> confusing
> > > > > theories behind fundamentalism and ex-gay theory.
> > > > >
> > > > > In hindsight, I view my ex-gay experience as part of my
> growing
> > >
> > > > > process.  In going through the ex-gay process, I applied a
> set
> > > of
> > > > > beliefs that didn't work out for me.  I view it as
> > > > > necessarily 'giving up' but as 'moving on'.
> > > > >
> > > > > - Norm!
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > --- In exexgayministry@y..., "Chris H" <itschris@r...>
> wrote:
> > > > > > Hey Pat,
> > > > > >   Thanks for this post- your story is uncomfortably
> familiar
> > > to
> > > > > me!
> > > > > >   I think that one of the most damaging messages is
> that 'If
> > > you
> > > > > don't
> > > > > > change (your sexuality), you don't have enough faith, and
>
> are
> > >
> > > > > therefore
> > > > > > not good enough/ a failure'. That ends up with one
> > > feeling 'not
> > > > > good
> > > > > > enough for God, otherwise I would have been healed'.
> > > > > >   I too went earnestly to a Living Waters course (run by
> > > Exodus
> > > > > > ministries), and believed that I was 'truly seeking God
> with
> > > all
> > > > > my
> > > > > > heart'.
> > > > > >   I guess I left because, like you, I gave up. I think the
>
> > > > > despair
> > > > > > associated with that process is one of the most
> potentially
> > > > > damaging
> > > > > > outcomes- and is positively nurtured by those from
> whom 'help'
> > >
> > > > > and
> > > > > > 'support' have been sought. I know I, for one, am blessed
>
> to
> > > still
> > > > >
> > > > > be
> > > > > > alive. I also know now that I am not alone in that
> sentiment
> > > (and
> > > > >
> > > > > there
> > > > > > are many more who didn't make it.).
> > > > > >   Yes, I am happy and secure in the knowledge that God
> created
> > >
> > > me
> > > > > > lesbian, and the loving, faithful God I have always
> believed
> > > in
> > > > > would
> > > > > > have changed/healed (whatever.) me if that had genuinely
> been
> > >
> > > > > God's will
> > > > > > for me.
> > > > > >   My partner now tells me she thinks I should ask for a
> refund
> > >
> > > > > (the
> > > > > > course cost me considerably, and I made significant
> sacrifices
> > >
> > > to
> > > > >
> > > > > get
> > > > > > there). However, I am secure in my faith, and knowing that
>
> I
> > > am
> > > > > where I
> > > > > > need to be (and that is truly a position I spent 30-or-so
>
> > > years
> > > > > getting
> > > > > > to, and longed for for the greater period of that time).
> > > > > > Cheers!
> > > > > > Chris
> > > > > >
> > > > > > -----Original Message-----
> > > > > > From: patthecatwv [mailto:patthecatwv@y...]
> > > > > > Sent: Thursday, May 30, 2002 3:00 PM
> > > > > > To: exexgayministry@y...
> > > > > > Subject: [ExExGayMinistry] coercion to join ex-gay
> > > ministries?
> > > > > >
> > > > > > I think its far too simple to assume that the decision to
>
> join
> > >
> > > an
> > > > >
> > > > > ex-
> > > > > > gay ministry is one of either being forced into it, or
> > > choosing
> > > > > > entirely freely.  I know that I grew up in a dysfunctional
>
> > > family
> > > > >
> > > > > and
> > > > > > went to dysfunctional churches where the authority of the
>
> head
> > >
> > > of
> > > > >
> > > > > > household/preacher was all encompassing, where
> disagreement
> > > was
> > > > > > punished and love and acceptance withheld if there was not
>
> > > > > immediate
> > > > > > and total compliance.  I learned to obey, that only one
> way
> > > was
> > > > > > acceptable, and it wasn't mine- it was their
> interpretation of
> > >
> > > > > God's
> > > > > > will for me.  I really did not know how to think for
> myself,
> > > how
> > > > > to
> > > > > > separate what I had been taught from reality.  I didn't
> even
> > > know
> > > > >
> > > > > it
> > > > > > wasn't real, that there was another way to be that was
> > > actually
> > > > > > healthier and more spiritually based.  There was
> incredible
> > > > > pressure
> > > > > > placed on the members of those churches to comply, to
> think
> > > and
> > > > > > believe the same.  If you doubted, you lacked faith, you
> did
> > > not
> > > > > > believe in God, and therefore could not be a part of- to
> be
> > > > > different
> > > > > > was a sin in itself.  I was so damnably brainwashed, I
> could
> > > not
> > > > > see
> > > > > > any other way.  I had a church pay for me to go to an
> exodus
> > > > > > conference, and I went willingly because I believed I
> would in
> > >
> > > > > fact
> > > > > > go to hell if I could not change, and because I wanted God
>
> to
> > >
> > > love
> > > > >
> > > > > me
> > > > > > and for them, the people I considered my friends to accept
>
> > > me.  I
> > > > >
> > > > > > stayed just as gay as ever, just more guilt-ridden and
> > > ashamed.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > The first time I questioned out loud with a friend of mine
>
> > > whether
> > > > >
> > > > > > the bible was word for word the word of God, we both
> cringed,
> > >
> > > > > > literally expecting some kind of terrible judgement-a bolt
>
> of
> > >
> > > > > > lightning or something equally drastic.  Of course, it
> didn't
> > >
> > > > > happen,
> > > > > > and I was quite relieved.  I laugh about it now, but it
> took a
> > >
> > > > > long
> > > > > > painful journey to change those spiritually abusive
> beliefs.
> > >
> > > > > > Of course, I became that "godless liberal" we all feared
> so
> > > much
> > > > > as a
> > > > > > result of seeking, questioning, doubting, and exploring
> truth.
> > >
> > > > > And,
> > > > > > they have rejected me, but, as a result of all that
> reaching
> > > out
> > > > > is
> > > > > > that This person my old church buddies reject now has real
>
> > > faith
> > > > > in
> > > > > > God.  I love him, I do not doubt his love for me now.  I
> > > believe
> > > > > he
> > > > > > is there for me always, and that he created me Lesbian-
> and
> > > > > treasures
> > > > > > his creation.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > There are books that explain that kind of
> > > Christianity/religiosity
> > > > >
> > > > > in
> > > > > > detail and explain what is wrong with it- "The Subtle
> Power of
> > >
> > > > > > Spiritual Abuse", and "Toxic Faith" for example.  And,
> there
> > > are
> > > > > > books that explain the journey to learn to think for
> yourself,
> > >
> > > > > that
> > > > > > journey into self-actualization like "Women's Ways of
> > > Knowing".
> > > > > >
> > > > > > To say people are forced into ex-gay ministries does not
> take
> > >
> > > into
> > > > >
> > > > > > account the power of culture, the indoctrination of
> religion
> > > and
> > > > > the
> > > > > > socialization process.  I think most of us try them
> because we
> > >
> > > > > > believe what we've been taught- that we are terrible,
> sinful
> > > > > beings
> > > > > > that will be rejected by God if we don't change.  I don't
>
> know
> > >
> > > > > about
> > > > > > you, but hell sounded pretty scary to me.  And, I wanted
> the
> > > > > > acceptance of my fellow church members as well, my church
>
> > > family-
> > > > >
> > > > > > that is tremendous pressure, to lose the respect of the
> people
> > >
> > > you
> > > > >
> > > > > > trust and depend on.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > I didn't leave the ex-gay ministry because I changed my
> mind.
> > >
> > > I
> > > > > left
> > > > > > because I gave up- realized I was not going to change-
> nobody
> > >
> > > else
> > > > >
> > > > > > really had, we all still felt "lust" for our own sex
> (amazing
> > >
> > > how
> > > > >
> > > > > > they always left out the tenderness, love and romance
> > > involved.)
> > > > > > My attitude changes came much later, after a lot of
> painful
> > > soul-
> > > > > > searching and prayer, and a spiritual awakening.  I'm very
>
> > > > > grateful
> > > > > > to God that I made it here, and that there is even more to
>
> > > come,
> > > > > more
> > > > > > to learn, more growth to experience.  Im grateful to know
>
> I am
> > >
> > > > > loved
> > > > > > by God and my prayer is that all glbt will come to know
> that
> > > in
> > > > > their
> > > > > > hearts as well.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > One thing that makes me really sad though, and sometimes
> > > afraid as
> > > > >
> > > > > > well, is knowing that many of my brothers and sisters in
> > > Christ
> > > > > will
> > > > > > always reject and castigate me for being the creation God
>
> > > intended
> > > > >
> > > > > > for me to be.  Part of me craves that acceptance even as I
>
> > > know I
> > > > >
> > > > > > will never get it from most of them.  But, God loves them
>
> too,
> > >
> > > and
> > > > >
> > > > > > there is hope.  After all, I made it out, so can they.
> Love
> > > you
> > > > > > guys, Pat
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
> > > > > > exexgayministry-unsubscribe@y...
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo!
> > > > > > <http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/>  Terms of Service.
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor
> > > > >
> > > > > To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
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> > > > >
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> > > > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
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> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > >
> > > >
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--- In exexgayministry@y..., "nojam75" <nojam75@y...> wrote:
> According to Bruce Bawer's book, Stealing Jesus, the
> term 'fundamentalist' was coined in 1920 by the editor of a Baptist
> publication to refer to the anti-modernist group of Baptists.

That definition is only partially correct. Bawer leaves out WHAT a
fundamentalist is.  The term was used because, unlike the growing
trend, this group still believed the fundamentals of the faith, i.e.,
the virgin birth, the sufficiency of the Scriptures, the
substitutionary atonement, the bodily resurrection, etc.

Obviously, embracing those ideas has nothing to do with war, murder,
and such.

>When
> I use the term, I refer to the fundamentalist vs. modernist debate
> within Christianity regarding the approaches to understanding the
> Bible and the message of Christianity.  I would consider myself a
> fundamentalist to modernist convert.

I would not consider "modernist" the opposite of fundamentalist.

>Bishop John Shelby Spong even
> calls evangelism a form of violence.

That can go both ways.  I have been on the receiving end of the
verble wrath and condescending attitudes from "modernists/liberals"
simply because I took a stand (political or religious) that was
slightly more "conservative" then the majority in the room.
The "violence" goes both ways.  Those who were supposed to
be "liberal" or open-minded were as closed minded as those they were
accusing!

>So, I've never quite
> understood the distinction some would like to make between
> Evangelism and what you call 'Legalism'.

Legalism has nothing to do with Christianity.  Librarians are
legalistic.  Anyone who emphasises the letter of the law over the
spirit of the law is legalistic.  Evangelism and legalism are not
even related.  Norm, read up on it.

>However, Evangelism was developed as
> the more marketable form of fundamentalism in our consumer
culture.

"Developed" by whom?  That comment is based upon a lack of
understanding of BOTH!

> It's interesting that although hell is an essential doctrine of
> Evangelism, it seems to be rarely mentioned -- kinda like the way a
> drug commercial downplays the potential side effects.

Actually, Jesus spoke ALLOT about hell and spoke of it often.  Rather
than post pages and pages of scripture, I will invite you to check
this web site.  There are many others but this will give you an idea
of how often Jesus mentioned hell.
http://www.geocities.com/Heartland/Shores/2800/JesusonHell.html

Or, just read a few of these to see what Jesus himself said about
hell.

Matt 7:19, 13:40, 25:41
Matt 18:8, 25:41
Mark 3:29
Matt 5:22, 18:9, Mark 9:47
Matt 23:14, Mark 12:40, Luke 20:47
Matt 23:33
John 5:29
Matt 13:42, 50
Mark 9:43, 45
Mark 9:44, 46, 48
Mark 9:44, 46, 48
Matt 13:42, 50
Matt 8:12, 22:13, 25:30
Luke 16:23
Luke 16:24
Luke 16:28
Matt 8:12, 22:13
Matt 25:46

>I know, I know "It's not me -- IT'S GOD'S WORD.
> Therefore, I'm not responsible for the message."

I don't like it either when people target gay folks or any other
group, while ignoring the 50% of the congregation that is divorced as
if God has focused on those "nasty homos."

Norm, you seem to have lumped all non-"modernists" into the same
category.  Believe me, they are not the same.

I used to be an ultra-right-wing-fundamentalist-legalist, bible-
banger.  Everyone else was going to hell, period!  Fortunately, I
realized that the "legalists" application of scripture simply did not
gel with real life.  After 20-more years, I would say that I still
hold most of the fundamentals of the faith, but my application of the
scriptures is certainly what some would call liberal...but they did
that 20-years ago, too.

Liberal, fundamentalist, evangelical, legalist, modernist...all
different terms not usually related.  I know liberal evangelicals and
ultra-conservative, legalistic evangelicals.  The terms are not
interchangable.

D*

Jerry, I agree that Evangelism in its purist form should about
sharing and living up to Jesus' message.  However, I can't say that
the Evangelism I've seen is anywhere near this definition.  More
often I've seen self-proclaimed Evangelists and churches turn Jesus'
message into marketing slogans and recruitment drives.  This type of
Evangelism leads to a 'us vs them' mentality and eventually bitter
disputes over definitions of what the fundmentals of the faith are.

As for Bishop Spong's comments, I will not attempt to speak for
him.  To be fair, Spong comments were pre-9/11, so I don't think he
was referring to physical violence.  In its worse forms though, I
think Evangelism can lead to very nasty tactics such as scaring kids
with hell to convert, targeting specific less-powerful classes of
people for conversion, and attacking alternative beliefs systems.

- Norm!




--- In exexgayministry@y..., BearJER@j... wrote:
>
> On Thu, 06 Jun 2002 04:53:34 -0000 "nojam75" <nojam75@y...> writes:
>
> Bishop John Shelby Spong even calls evangelism a form of
violence.  So,
> I've never quite
> understood the distinction some would like to make between
Evangelism and
> what you call Legalism'.  Generally, both are rooted in
fundamentalism
> and fear.  However, Evangelism was developed as the more
marketable form
> of fundamentalism in our consumer culture.
>
> REPLY:  Norm, I wouldn't quibble with you over the some of the
terms too
> much, but I have to respectfully disagree with you and Spong on
the true
> meaning of evangelism.  That term comes from a Greek word which
means to
> take the gospel to the world.  That is what Jesus said, "Go into
all the
> world and preach the gospel to every person."  That is evangelism
in its
> purest form, not spreading petty doctrines, but spreading the good
news
> that Jesus came into the world to save us.  So, sorry, Bishop or no
> Bishop, Spong's statement about evangelism being violent doesn't
make
> biblical sense to me.  That would be the same thing as saying Jesus
> himself was violent because he very much taught Christians to be
> evangelistic.
>
> Jerry
>
>
> >
> >
> > --- In exexgayministry@y..., BearJER@j... wrote:
> > > Norm, I was brought up in a church which prided itself in being
> > > "fundamental" to the gospel.  Recently, there has been a shift
in
> >
> > that
> > > church in stating that they are primarily evangelical, rather
> > than
> > > wanting to be known by the term fundmentalists.  I just think
it
> > is
> > > unfortunate that the meanings of words actually get changed
(kind
> >
> > of like
> > > in pscyhology - social constructionism).
> > >
> > > There is nothing at all wrong with fundamental Christianity as
it
> >
> > means
> > > you believe in God and what he says in the Bible, though we do
> > differ on
> > > certain applications of scripture.  The fundamentals such as
Jesus
> >
> > died
> > > for our sins, rose again, etc. are pretty much solid to our
faith
> >
> > and
> > > have to be or we couldn't consider ourselves Christians.  I am
> > just sorry
> > > the definitions of words get messed up.  The secular media
> > actually did
> > > that to us.  The call RADICAL muslims like the suicide bombers
> > > FUNDAMENTALISTS.  A better choice of description would be
> > LEGALISTS,
> > > RADICALS, HATE-MONGERS, whatever.  I dislike the fact that we
> > allow
> > > non-Christian media types to change the definitions of words.
Do
> >
> > you get
> > > my drift?  We are now mis-using the term FUNDAMENTAL
completely
> > from its
> > > original definition, and that is fact!!
> > >
> > > Thanks for listening,
> > >
> > > Jerry Boor
> > >
> > > On Tue, 04 Jun 2002 07:03:26 -0000 "nojam75" <nojam75@y...>
> > writes:
> > > > I have already had the discussion regarding my views on
> > > > fundamentalism.  Nor is this an appropriate forum to get
bogged
> >
> > down
> > > >
> > > > into all the nitty-gritty theological details.
> > > >
> > > > What is more relevant is the nature of fundamentalism.  The
> > ultimate
> > > >
> > > > goal of fundamentalism is to defend doctrine while attacking
all
> >
> > > > alternative ideas.  Similarly, the ex-gay movement seems to
be
> > about
> > > >
> > > > pressuring participants to defend ex-gay theory while
attacking
> >
> > any
> > > >
> > > > alternative ideas about sexuality.  Both movements,
> > fundamentalism
> > > > and the ex-gay sub-movement, do not empower their
participants,
> >
> > but
> > > >
> > > > seek to ensure that their participants blindly maintain
> > doctrine.
> > > >
> > > > - Norm!
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > --- In exexgayministry@y..., BearJER@j... wrote:
> > > > > Just curious, Norm.  Specifically, what fundamentalist
> > doctrines
> > > > did you
> > > > > believe then that you no longer believe?
> > > > >
> > > > > --Jerry in Michigan
> > > > >
> > > > > On Mon, 03 Jun 2002 05:23:48 -0000 "nojam75"
<nojam75@y...>
> > > > writes:
> > > > > > Thanks for sharing Pat & Chris!
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Pat, you make an important distinction in that you
> > > > didn't "decide"
> > > > > > to leave ex-gay ministry, but you "gave up".  I relate
very
> >
> > much
> > > >
> > > > to
> > > > > >
> > > > > > your experience.  Toward the end of my ex-gay
experience, I
> >
> > had
> > > >
> > > > to
> > > > > > deal with the feelings of being a failure and a 'gay
> > Christian
> > > > > > sinner who should know better'.  After commiting most of
my
> >
> > > > > > spiritual life and identity to upholding fundamentalist
> > > > doctrines
> > > > > > and ex-gay theory, I felt that I was betraying my entire
> > faith
> > > > > > system when I began reconsider these commitments.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > What I began to realize though, was that I was not fully
> > > > informed
> > > > > > when I made these commitments.  Being raised in
Christian
> > > > > > fundamentalism, I took certain doctrines for granted
without
> >
> > > > ever
> > > > > > seriously learning about the history and source of such
> > > > doctrines.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Similarly, as a young, confused conservative Christian
> > dealing
> > > > > > with 'homosexual tendencies', I was vulnerable to any
> > > > conservative
> > > > > > Christian group that was willing to address the topic --
> > such as
> > > >
> > > > > > ex-
> > > > > > gay ministries.  And yet, I was forced to deal with the
> > flaws of
> > > >
> > > > > > fundamentalism and ex-gay theory.  Toward the end, I
began
> > to
> > > > > > "give-
> > > > > > up" trying to reconcile the increasingly complex and
> > confusing
> > > > > > theories behind fundamentalism and ex-gay theory.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > In hindsight, I view my ex-gay experience as part of my
> > growing
> > > >
> > > > > > process.  In going through the ex-gay process, I applied
a
> > set
> > > > of
> > > > > > beliefs that didn't work out for me.  I view it as
> > > > > > necessarily 'giving up' but as 'moving on'.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > - Norm!
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > --- In exexgayministry@y..., "Chris H" <itschris@r...>
> > wrote:
> > > > > > > Hey Pat,
> > > > > > >   Thanks for this post- your story is uncomfortably
> > familiar
> > > > to
> > > > > > me!
> > > > > > >   I think that one of the most damaging messages is
> > that 'If
> > > > you
> > > > > > don't
> > > > > > > change (your sexuality), you don't have enough faith,
and
> >
> > are
> > > >
> > > > > > therefore
> > > > > > > not good enough/ a failure'. That ends up with one
> > > > feeling 'not
> > > > > > good
> > > > > > > enough for God, otherwise I would have been healed'.
> > > > > > >   I too went earnestly to a Living Waters course (run
by
> > > > Exodus
> > > > > > > ministries), and believed that I was 'truly seeking
God
> > with
> > > > all
> > > > > > my
> > > > > > > heart'.
> > > > > > >   I guess I left because, like you, I gave up. I think
the
> >
> > > > > > despair
> > > > > > > associated with that process is one of the most
> > potentially
> > > > > > damaging
> > > > > > > outcomes- and is positively nurtured by those from
> > whom 'help'
> > > >
> > > > > > and
> > > > > > > 'support' have been sought. I know I, for one, am
blessed
> >
> > to
> > > > still
> > > > > >
> > > > > > be
> > > > > > > alive. I also know now that I am not alone in that
> > sentiment
> > > > (and
> > > > > >
> > > > > > there
> > > > > > > are many more who didn't make it.).
> > > > > > >   Yes, I am happy and secure in the knowledge that God
> > created
> > > >
> > > > me
> > > > > > > lesbian, and the loving, faithful God I have always
> > believed
> > > > in
> > > > > > would
> > > > > > > have changed/healed (whatever.) me if that had
genuinely
> > been
> > > >
> > > > > > God's will
> > > > > > > for me.
> > > > > > >   My partner now tells me she thinks I should ask for
a
> > refund
> > > >
> > > > > > (the
> > > > > > > course cost me considerably, and I made significant
> > sacrifices
> > > >
> > > > to
> > > > > >
> > > > > > get
> > > > > > > there). However, I am secure in my faith, and knowing
that
> >
> > I
> > > > am
> > > > > > where I
> > > > > > > need to be (and that is truly a position I spent 30-or-
so
> >
> > > > years
> > > > > > getting
> > > > > > > to, and longed for for the greater period of that
time).
> > > > > > > Cheers!
> > > > > > > Chris
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > -----Original Message-----
> > > > > > > From: patthecatwv [mailto:patthecatwv@y...]
> > > > > > > Sent: Thursday, May 30, 2002 3:00 PM
> > > > > > > To: exexgayministry@y...
> > > > > > > Subject: [ExExGayMinistry] coercion to join ex-gay
> > > > ministries?
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > I think its far too simple to assume that the decision
to
> >
> > join
> > > >
> > > > an
> > > > > >
> > > > > > ex-
> > > > > > > gay ministry is one of either being forced into it, or
> > > > choosing
> > > > > > > entirely freely.  I know that I grew up in a
dysfunctional
> >
> > > > family
> > > > > >
> > > > > > and
> > > > > > > went to dysfunctional churches where the authority of
the
> >
> > head
> > > >
> > > > of
> > > > > >
> > > > > > > household/preacher was all encompassing, where
> > disagreement
> > > > was
> > > > > > > punished and love and acceptance withheld if there was
not
> >
> > > > > > immediate
> > > > > > > and total compliance.  I learned to obey, that only
one
> > way
> > > > was
> > > > > > > acceptable, and it wasn't mine- it was their
> > interpretation of
> > > >
> > > > > > God's
> > > > > > > will for me.  I really did not know how to think for
> > myself,
> > > > how
> > > > > > to
> > > > > > > separate what I had been taught from reality.  I
didn't
> > even
> > > > know
> > > > > >
> > > > > > it
> > > > > > > wasn't real, that there was another way to be that was
> > > > actually
> > > > > > > healthier and more spiritually based.  There was
> > incredible
> > > > > > pressure
> > > > > > > placed on the members of those churches to comply, to
> > think
> > > > and
> > > > > > > believe the same.  If you doubted, you lacked faith,
you
> > did
> > > > not
> > > > > > > believe in God, and therefore could not be a part of-
to
> > be
> > > > > > different
> > > > > > > was a sin in itself.  I was so damnably brainwashed, I
> > could
> > > > not
> > > > > > see
> > > > > > > any other way.  I had a church pay for me to go to an
> > exodus
> > > > > > > conference, and I went willingly because I believed I
> > would in
> > > >
> > > > > > fact
> > > > > > > go to hell if I could not change, and because I wanted
God
> >
> > to
> > > >
> > > > love
> > > > > >
> > > > > > me
> > > > > > > and for them, the people I considered my friends to
accept
> >
> > > > me.  I
> > > > > >
> > > > > > > stayed just as gay as ever, just more guilt-ridden and
> > > > ashamed.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > The first time I questioned out loud with a friend of
mine
> >
> > > > whether
> > > > > >
> > > > > > > the bible was word for word the word of God, we both
> > cringed,
> > > >
> > > > > > > literally expecting some kind of terrible judgement-a
bolt
> >
> > of
> > > >
> > > > > > > lightning or something equally drastic.  Of course, it
> > didn't
> > > >
> > > > > > happen,
> > > > > > > and I was quite relieved.  I laugh about it now, but
it
> > took a
> > > >
> > > > > > long
> > > > > > > painful journey to change those spiritually abusive
> > beliefs.
> > > >
> > > > > > > Of course, I became that "godless liberal" we all
feared
> > so
> > > > much
> > > > > > as a
> > > > > > > result of seeking, questioning, doubting, and
exploring
> > truth.
> > > >
> > > > > > And,
> > > > > > > they have rejected me, but, as a result of all that
> > reaching
> > > > out
> > > > > > is
> > > > > > > that This person my old church buddies reject now has
real
> >
> > > > faith
> > > > > > in
> > > > > > > God.  I love him, I do not doubt his love for me now.
I
> > > > believe
> > > > > > he
> > > > > > > is there for me always, and that he created me Lesbian-

> > and
> > > > > > treasures
> > > > > > > his creation.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > There are books that explain that kind of
> > > > Christianity/religiosity
> > > > > >
> > > > > > in
> > > > > > > detail and explain what is wrong with it- "The Subtle
> > Power of
> > > >
> > > > > > > Spiritual Abuse", and "Toxic Faith" for example.  And,
> > there
> > > > are
> > > > > > > books that explain the journey to learn to think for
> > yourself,
> > > >
> > > > > > that
> > > > > > > journey into self-actualization like "Women's Ways of
> > > > Knowing".
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > To say people are forced into ex-gay ministries does
not
> > take
> > > >
> > > > into
> > > > > >
> > > > > > > account the power of culture, the indoctrination of
> > religion
> > > > and
> > > > > > the
> > > > > > > socialization process.  I think most of us try them
> > because we
> > > >
> > > > > > > believe what we've been taught- that we are terrible,
> > sinful
> > > > > > beings
> > > > > > > that will be rejected by God if we don't change.  I
don't
> >
> > know
> > > >
> > > > > > about
> > > > > > > you, but hell sounded pretty scary to me.  And, I
wanted
> > the
> > > > > > > acceptance of my fellow church members as well, my
church
> >
> > > > family-
> > > > > >
> > > > > > > that is tremendous pressure, to lose the respect of
the
> > people
> > > >
> > > > you
> > > > > >
> > > > > > > trust and depend on.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > I didn't leave the ex-gay ministry because I changed
my
> > mind.
> > > >
> > > > I
> > > > > > left
> > > > > > > because I gave up- realized I was not going to change-
> > nobody
> > > >
> > > > else
> > > > > >
> > > > > > > really had, we all still felt "lust" for our own sex
> > (amazing
> > > >
> > > > how
> > > > > >
> > > > > > > they always left out the tenderness, love and romance
> > > > involved.)
> > > > > > > My attitude changes came much later, after a lot of
> > painful
> > > > soul-
> > > > > > > searching and prayer, and a spiritual awakening.  I'm
very
> >
> > > > > > grateful
> > > > > > > to God that I made it here, and that there is even
more to
> >
> > > > come,
> > > > > > more
> > > > > > > to learn, more growth to experience.  Im grateful to
know
> >
> > I am
> > > >
> > > > > > loved
> > > > > > > by God and my prayer is that all glbt will come to
know
> > that
> > > > in
> > > > > > their
> > > > > > > hearts as well.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > One thing that makes me really sad though, and
sometimes
> > > > afraid as
> > > > > >
> > > > > > > well, is knowing that many of my brothers and sisters
in
> > > > Christ
> > > > > > will
> > > > > > > always reject and castigate me for being the creation
God
> >
> > > > intended
> > > > > >
> > > > > > > for me to be.  Part of me craves that acceptance even
as I
> >
> > > > know I
> > > > > >
> > > > > > > will never get it from most of them.  But, God loves
them
> >
> > too,
> > > >
> > > > and
> > > > > >
> > > > > > > there is hope.  After all, I made it out, so can
they.
> > Love
> > > > you
> > > > > > > guys, Pat
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
> > > > > > > exexgayministry-unsubscribe@y...
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo!
> > > > > > > <http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/>  Terms of Service.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor
> > > > > >
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> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
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--- In exexgayministry@y..., calldon2k <no_reply@y...> wrote:
> --- In exexgayministry@y..., "nojam75" <nojam75@y...> wrote:
> I would not consider "modernist" the opposite of fundamentalist.

How would you define modernist?

> >However, Evangelism was developed as
> > the more marketable form of fundamentalism in our consumer
> culture.
>
> "Developed" by whom?  That comment is based upon a lack of
> understanding of BOTH!

In the 20th century context, American Evangelism was refined by
church leaders who were attempting to keep Christianity relevant to
American society.

> Norm, you seem to have lumped all non-"modernists" into the same
> category.  Believe me, they are not the same...

I am well aware that there are differing variations of
fundamentalism -- I was not trying to distinguish between the shades
of gray.  My main issue I have with fundamentalism is its attempt to
define Christianity to a specific set of doctrines -- which no one
in 2000 years has successfully established.

Instead of establishing fundamentals, we should recognize that fact
that each of us are equipped and enabled to discover our own
relationship with God.  The Bible and religion are tools to assist,
but it's ridiculous to say the message of life can boiled down to a
specific set of doctrines.

- Norm!

Somehow, discussions about evangelism inevitably focus on the quacks who
are loudest and slickest about their heresy -- while ignoring the
majority of Christian evangelistic ministries.

Specifically, Catholic, Quaker, Mennonite, and Lutheran evangelistic
ministries.

We all know that attention-grabbing quacks terrorize and threaten
Catholics, Mormons, Jews, and Adventists among others if they fail to
bow to American nationalism, consumerism, and racist Southern
distortions of the Bible. They even collect money from the working and
enslaved poor and give it to the rich -- sometimes themselves, sometimes
the secular rulers of their despotic nations. Pat Robertson is infamous
in this regard.

*GENUINE* evangelical programs have historically fed, educated and
otherwise empowered the poor to take control of their own physical and
spiritual lives; to make Jesus' liberating message their own -- within
their own cultural context; and to enact Jesus' message of social
justice within their communities even as that meant risking their lives
thwarting corrupt local authorities and foreign economic and political
manipulation.

Who is to blame for our grossly distorted perspective on evangelism? The
heretics? The media? Church officials who are afraid to rock their
boatloads of wealthy donors?

Whoever we blame, I wouldn't blame the real evangelists -- their job is
to accomplish social justice, NOT to make fortunes as well-dressed,
limo-escorted policy wonks and blabbermouths on cushy American talk
shows and infomercials.

Sincerely,
Mike

I think evangelism can be verbally and emotionally violent- Ive experienced real
cruelty in the name of God, and the scripture.  In fact, its driven me away from
God more often than to Him.  God's people, or those who style themselves as such
can be really scary.  Pat

"Lots of Love and Laughter!!!"


---------------------------------
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Sign-up for Video Highlights of 2002 FIFA World Cup

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

I think evangelism can be violent when it is practiced as a one-way
affair.

Evangelism can two-way: People with different faith perspectives have an
opportunity to learn and benefit from one another.

When an evangelist twists his communication into a one-way lecture, he
is not seeking God in his own spiritual journey, nor is he seeking to
aid others in their journeys.

-- Mike

Does anyone out there have access to Echo Magazine?  There is a
disturbing quote attributed to Echo Magazine as follows:  "You can say
what you want about Osama bin Laden and his gang.  Personally, I'm still
more terrorized by our very own American religious fanatics....Once we've
decimated the terrorist cells worldwide, then we can start to focus on
the religous zealots here in our own country."

If this is this magazine's actual words, then it is very disturbing to
me.  Does anyone share my view?  So much for freedom with this line of
thinking!   How can you advocate MURDER against a Christian who happens
to disagree with you (if that is what this magazine is saying) and not be
just as guilty as the thugs who killed Matthew Shepherd?

What do you guys think?

--Jerry in Michigan

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Jerry,

It helps to look things up. I'll help you out here, but it's ultimately
going to be your obligation to finish the research, since you're the one
making an allegation based on almost no facts, such as the writer's
name, date, and the full text of the article in question.

First, Echo Magazine (a small Arizona rag) is online, at
www.echomag.com. But as you'll see, its archives don't go back to the
time of the alleged quotation.

Second, if you do a search on Google for keywords "echo magazine" and
"zealots" you'll find that rumors of the alleged quotation are
originating from Ken Munsil, president of the Center for Arizona Policy,
a religious-right organization.

http://www.azpolicy.org/assets/citizen/2002Jan.pdf

Munsil never cites the issue date or page in which the quotation
allegedly occurred. He also hacks up the quotation, citing items
selectively and out of context and interjecting his own sarcasm. Clearly
he can't be trusted to give us the plain facts.

Your Google search will show that Munsil's allegations were subsequently
picked up by Focus on the Family and one or two other organizations that
campaigned to misrepresent gay opinion about Sept. 11. These subsequent
groups made no apparent effort to flesh out and substantiate the claim
by Munsil.

So, one must go back to the source to find out what was really said --
the whole quotation, not just bits of it -- and what the author might
have said since then. After all, it's been eight months.

How do you go back to the source? You go to Google again. You search for
the author "Jeff Ofstedahl."

On the very first page of results -- well whaddaya know, Jeff has his
own home page at:
http://home.earthlink.net/~azboys/

Jerry, I recommend that you visit the author's home page. You'll see
that he's an ordinary guy and small-business operator, and he even goes
to a Christian church.

http://www.communitychurchofhope.com

Knowing a little about him may help you, because now it's time to go
back to Ofstedahl's home page and write a nice e-mail to Ofstedahl
courteously requesting clarification. You might, for example, mention
that you had heard of this quotation from politically biased sources,
and ask Ofstedahl for a copy of the complete article or perhaps just an
explanation of what was actually said.

Once we have accurate material, then we can decide whether Ofstedahl was
using hate speech and promoting the murder of Christian zealots like Mr.
Munsil.

Jerry, many thanks in advance for doing this research.

-- Mike