Richtig, Herr Bill

   Presently I have learned only
   ABCD
   Das Verb(Prasens)
   Das Verb sien
   Personalpronomen

   With this I can form very few sentenses which are not enough to write "few
lines in german" but with the help of book i can understand manytimes what
others are writing.

   Do you suggest any book (with publication details) or any website where I can
master my pronounciation and grammer as well.
   I am really interested and willing to master german grammer and pronounication
- please suggest any text and audio sources?

   Danke!


---------------------------------
  Forgot the famous last words? Access your message archive online. Click here.

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Hi all, I need help with the words to the song in the following link.  I am self
taught in german but not very good yet.  I am trying to learn the German and
English translation to this song.  I made a web page and uploaded the song.  You
can hear it or download it.  The song is  "Frohliche Weihnacht uberall" by
Wolfgang Petry , its a christmas song.  Thanx

http://home.centurytel.net/peggyanddon/GermanChristmas.htm
_________________________________________________________________
Your smile counts. The more smiles you share, the more we donate.  Join in.
www.windowslive.com/smile?ocid=TXT_TAGLM_Wave2_oprsmilewlhmtagline

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

German text can be found here:  
http://www.weihnachten.machtspass.com/weihnachtslied_froehlicheweihnacht.htm

Rann...


   ----- Original Message -----
   From: Donald Krystek
   To: germanlanguageclub@yahoogroups.com
   Sent: Friday, November 30, 2007 1:21 PM
   Subject: [German Language Club] Christmas Song


   Hi all, I need help with the words to the song in the following link. I am
self taught in german but not very good yet. I am trying to learn the German and
English translation to this song. I made a web page and uploaded the song. You
can hear it or download it. The song is "Frohliche Weihnacht uberall" by
Wolfgang Petry , its a christmas song. Thanx

   http://home.centurytel.net/peggyanddon/GermanChristmas.htm
   __________________________________________________________
   Your smile counts. The more smiles you share, the more we donate.  Join in.
   www.windowslive.com/smile?ocid=TXT_TAGLM_Wave2_oprsmilewlhmtagline

   [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]





[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

There is an interesting course, with a lot of audio and video files, at
Deutsche Welle:
<http://deutschkurse.dw-world.de/KursPlattform/WebObjects/KursPlattform.woa/wo/3\
.1>

ACD wrote:
>
>
>
> Richtig, Herr Bill
>
> Presently I have learned only
> ABCD
> Das Verb(Prasens)
> Das Verb sien
> Personalpronomen
>
> With this I can form very few sentenses which are not enough to write
> "few lines in german" but with the help of book i can understand
> manytimes what others are writing.
>
> Do you suggest any book (with publication details) or any website where
> I can master my pronounciation and grammer as well.
> I am really interested and willing to master german grammer and
> pronounication - please suggest any text and audio sources?
>
> Danke!

Danke


To: germanlanguageclub@...: rann@...: Sat, 1 Dec 2007
11:24:20 -0500Subject: Re: [German Language Club] Christmas Song




German text can be found here:
http://www.weihnachten.machtspass.com/weihnachtslied_froehlicheweihnacht.htmRann\
...----- Original Message ----- From: Donald Krystek To:
germanlanguageclub@yahoogroups.com Sent: Friday, November 30, 2007 1:21
PMSubject: [German Language Club] Christmas SongHi all, I need help with the
words to the song in the following link. I am self taught in german but not very
good yet. I am trying to learn the German and English translation to this song.
I made a web page and uploaded the song. You can hear it or download it. The
song is "Frohliche Weihnacht uberall" by Wolfgang Petry , its a christmas song.
Thanxhttp://home.centurytel.net/peggyanddon/GermanChristmas.htm_________________\
_________________________________________Your smile counts. The more smiles you
share, the more we donate. Join
in.www.windowslive.com/smile?ocid=TXT_TAGLM_Wave2_oprsmilewlhmtagline[Non-text
portions of this message have been removed][Non-text portions of this message
have been removed]






_________________________________________________________________
Put your friends on the big screen with Windows Vista® + Windows Live™.
http://www.microsoft.com/windows/shop/specialoffers.mspx?ocid=TXT_TAGLM_CPC_Medi\
aCtr_bigscreen_102007

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

> Episode 13: Tim spills the beans
>
> Tim: So how was the cinema for you two love birds?
> Alice: How many times do I have to say this – that
> wasn’t a date!
> Tim: Whoa, easy tiger! Hey this’ll put a smile on
> your face. Guess who our landlord is?
> Alice: How should I know? We give the money to
> Helen and she always sends off the cheque.
> Tim: Go on, guess.
> Alice: Tom Cruise, the man in the moon, no idea!
> Tim: It's Helen’s dad!
> Alice: Helen’s dad! No way! Why would she keep
> that a secret?
> Helen: I'm just putting the kettle on. Anyone
> fancy a cuppa?

Folge 13: Tim plaudert alles aus

Tim: Also, wie war das Kino für euch zwei Turteltauben?
Alice: Wie oft muss ich's euch noch sagen: Das war doch keine
Verabredung.

[Why "Verabredung" instead of "Rendezvous"? I think it's funnier if
Alice's friends keep repeating the one word "Rendezvous," to Alice's
great annoyance.]

Tim: Brr, bleib locker, Tiger! He, dies wird dich aber freuen. Rat mal,
wer unser Vermieter ist.
Alice: Wie soll ich das wissen? Wir geben der Helen das Geld und sie
macht regelmässig eine Überweisung.

On 2 Dec 2007, at 14:22, Bill Kelly wrote:

>> Episode 13: Tim spills the beans
>>
>> Tim: So how was the cinema for you two love birds?
>> Alice: How many times do I have to say this – that
>> wasn’t a date!
>> Tim: Whoa, easy tiger! Hey this’ll put a smile on
>> your face. Guess who our landlord is?
>> Alice: How should I know? We give the money to
>> Helen and she always sends off the cheque.
>> Tim: Go on, guess.
>> Alice: Tom Cruise, the man in the moon, no idea!
>> Tim: It's Helen’s dad!
>> Alice: Helen’s dad! No way! Why would she keep
>> that a secret?
>> Helen: I'm just putting the kettle on. Anyone
>> fancy a cuppa?
>
> Folge 13: Tim plaudert alles aus
>
> Tim: Also, wie war das Kino für euch zwei Turteltauben?
> Alice: Wie oft muss ich's euch noch sagen: Das war doch keine
> Verabredung.
>
> [Why "Verabredung" instead of "Rendezvous"? I think it's funnier if
> Alice's friends keep repeating the one word "Rendezvous," to Alice's
> great annoyance.]

But from the text above, that is not the case, is it? It is Tim's use
of the word 'lovebirds' that causes annoyance on this occasion.

I am puzzled as to what German-speakers most commonly use for an
assignation of the romantic kind. My dictionary (the Oxford-Duden)
gives *Verabredung* for 'date' and not *Rendezvous*.

We have encountered a similar problem in Norskklassen.
Bokmålsordboka, the standard Bokmål dictionary, has the following entry:

stevnemøte
~møte (av I *stevne avtalt møte, særlig mellom kjærester
In English: (from I *stevne) arranged meeting, especially between
sweethearts

But Anne from Oslo said that nobody uses *stevnemøte* any more;
people say *date*, whether one likes it or not. And believe it or
not, there is no *date* entry in Bokmålsordboka.

So I would like to know from German-speakers what the 'in-word' is in
their language.

> Tim: Brr, bleib locker, Tiger! He, dies wird dich aber freuen. Rat
> mal,
> wer unser Vermieter ist.
> Alice: Wie soll ich das wissen? Wir geben der Helen das Geld und sie
> macht regelmässig eine Überweisung.

*Eine Überweising machen* is to make a money transfer, no? Is it not
OK to say word for word:

... und sie schickt immer den Scheck
?

I'm reading *Die Hostie* by Hans Bender. In the story a man finds a
small box in the street:

Es war eine goldene Kapsel. Ein Kreuz war eingraviert, ein schlankes,
hohes Kreuz, dessen Längsbalken einen gravierten Fisch durchschnitt. Ich
öffnete die Dose und sah die Hostie.

My Penguin reader translates the second sentence as follows:

A cross was engraved on it, slim, tall, with its horizontal arms cutting
across an engraved fish.

I'm fairly certain that that translation is wrong in using "horizontal
arms"; in the German, it is the vertical arm of the cross that is
mentioned, nicht wahr?

What would be the German for horizontal arm(s)? Would "Querbalken" be right?

Bill Kelly
Connecticut USA

On 2 Dec 2007, at 15:29, Bill Kelly wrote:
> What would be the German for horizontal arm(s)? Would "Querbalken"
> be right?

Yes, Querbalken = crossbeam

Am 02.12.2007 um 16:11 schrieb Alwyn:

>> [Why "Verabredung" instead of "Rendezvous"? I think it's funnier if
>> Alice's friends keep repeating the one word "Rendezvous," to Alice's
>> great annoyance.]
>
> But from the text above, that is not the case, is it? It is Tim's use
> of the word 'lovebirds' that causes annoyance on this occasion.
>
> I am puzzled as to what German-speakers most commonly use for an
> assignation of the romantic kind. My dictionary (the Oxford-Duden)
> gives *Verabredung* for 'date' and not *Rendezvous*.
Das überrascht mich etwas (vgl. unten).

>
> [...]
> But Anne from Oslo said that nobody uses *stevnemøte* any more;
> people say *date*, whether one likes it or not. And believe it or
> not, there is no *date* entry in Bokmålsordboka.
(Vielleicht ist "Anne aus Oslo" 50 Jahre jünger als die Autoren des
Wörterbuchs ...)

>
> So I would like to know from German-speakers what the 'in-word' is in
> their language.

"Das Date" ist auch schon sehr verbreitet für "das Rendezvous", das
tendenziell etwas altmodischer klingt, aber immer noch in Gebrauch
ist (zumindest für Leute über dreißig wie mich ...). Eine
"Verabredung" braucht nicht romantisch zu sein, das Wort ist
neutraler und allgemeiner. - Vielleicht verwendet man "Verabredung"
öfter als "Rendezvous" auch für potentiell romantische Treffen, weil
man sich dann nicht festlegen muss, wie romantisch die Verabredung
wirklich wird ...

(Übrigens ist "le rendez-vous" im Französischen auch nicht unbedingt
romantisch; es bedeutet einfach 'Verabredung, Termin'. - "Der Termin"
- das hatten wir ja schon diskutiert - ist eine geschäftliche
Verabredung oder ein Termin beim Arzt oder ähnlich. )

Martin



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

You're right of course that "einen Scheck schicken" is a more fathful
translation. I avoided it for the following reasons:

1. I wanted to start a discussion.

2. Correct me if I'm wrong, but in Germany (and the other
German-speaking lands?) an Überweisung rather than a paper check would
be the standard method of paying rent.

3. I realize these characters are not in Germany. However, among people
their age in the United States, direct transfers (via Internet-accessed
accounts) have become much more popular than writing paper checks. Is
that not also the case in the UK?

4. If you say <eine Überweisung machen>, does that refer to a specific
transfer method that is different from writing a check, or can the term
also be used more generally to refer to any means of moving the money
from A to B? If <Überweisung> is not the correct term for this more
general concept of "transfer", than what is?

Bill Kelly
Connecticut USA

--

>>Alice: Wie soll ich das wissen? Wir geben der Helen das Geld und sie
>>macht regelmässig eine Überweisung.>
>
> *Eine Überweising machen* is to make a money transfer, no? Is it not
> OK to say word for word:
>
> ... und sie schickt immer den Scheck

Hallo ,

Gibt es ein bestimmte Wort für “to migrate� auf Deutsch?

Ich weiß “auswandern�. Aber ich meine ein wort für die Computer
Anwendungen.

Auf Englisch… “to migrate applications to a new version�.

Vielen dank im Voraus.

Srikanth…


       Now you can chat without downloading messenger. Go to
http://in.messenger.yahoo.com/webmessengerpromo.php

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

In Episode 12, Alice was upset that Michal had characterized their
get-together as a "Rendezvous" -- at least, that was the word we
learners agreed to use at the time.

So I think it is appropriate, when in this episode she protests once
again, that she protest against exactly the same term that she found
upsetting before.

Remember, Alice says in exasperation: "How many times do I have to say
this... " That suggests to me that the subject has come up many times --
not just in Episodes 12 and 13, but "off stage" as well.

Alwyn wrote:

>>[Why "Verabredung" instead of "Rendezvous"? I think it's funnier if
>>Alice's friends keep repeating the one word "Rendezvous," to Alice's
>>great annoyance.]
>
>
> But from the text above, that is not the case, is it? It is Tim's use
> of the word 'lovebirds' that causes annoyance on this occasion.

Not just that, I submit, but also their repeated and/or implicit
characterization of the get-together as a "date" -- whatever that word
is in German.

> I am puzzled as to what German-speakers most commonly use for an
> assignation of the romantic kind. My dictionary (the Oxford-Duden)
> gives *Verabredung* for 'date' and not *Rendezvous*.

Yes, I agree we need to get a read on this. If I recall correctly, the
word Rendezvous came originally from one of us learners rather than a
native speaker. On the other hand, neither Dan nor Martin subsequently
vetoed it.

Bill Kelly
Connecticut USA

On 2 Dec 2007, at 15:18, Srikanth wrote:

> Gibt es ein bestimmte Wort für “to migrate” auf Deutsch?
>
> Ich weiß “auswandern”. Aber ich meine ein wort für die Computer
> Anwendungen.
>
> Auf Englisch… “to migrate applications to a new version”.
>
> Vielen dank im Voraus.

umstellen
<http://www.dict.cc/deutsch-englisch/umstellen.html>

Es steht in Benders *Die Hostie*:

Aber, wo war eine Kirche? Ich wußte keine. View Jahre wohnte ich in der
Stadt, aber ich wußte keine Kirche.

Is this a standard use of <wissen> vs. <kennen>?

I think I would expect something like:

Aber, wo war eine Kirche? Ich wußte nicht. View Jahre wohnte ich in der
Stadt, aber ich wußte nicht, wo eine Kirche war.

What about:

Aber, wo war eine Kirche? Ich kannte keine. View Jahre wohnte ich in der
Stadt, aber ich kannte keine Kirche.

Bill Kelly
Connecticut USA

Vier Jahre

-------- Original Message --------

Es steht in Benders *Die Hostie*:

Aber, wo war eine Kirche? Ich wußte keine. View Jahre wohnte ich in der
Stadt, aber ich wußte keine Kirche.

Is this a standard use of <wissen> vs. <kennen>?

I think I would expect something like:

Aber, wo war eine Kirche? Ich wußte nicht. View Jahre wohnte ich in der
Stadt, aber ich wußte nicht, wo eine Kirche war.

What about:

Aber, wo war eine Kirche? Ich kannte keine. View Jahre wohnte ich in der
Stadt, aber ich kannte keine Kirche.

Bill Kelly

On 2 Dec 2007, at 16:30, Bill Kelly wrote:

> Es steht in Benders *Die Hostie*:
>
> Aber, wo war eine Kirche? Ich wußte keine. View Jahre wohnte ich in
> der
> Stadt, aber ich wußte keine Kirche.
>
> Is this a standard use of <wissen> vs. <kennen>?

Yes. *Ich wusste keine* means: I didn't know where any were. *Ich
kannte keine* would mean: I was not acquainted with any, i.e. I had
never inspected them closely or been inside.

So *wissen* is the verb you'd mainly use when asking or giving
directions.

On 2 Dec 2007, at 16:00, Bill Kelly wrote:

> You're right of course that "einen Scheck schicken" is a more fathful
> translation. I avoided it for the following reasons:
>
> 1. I wanted to start a discussion.
>
> 2. Correct me if I'm wrong, but in Germany (and the other
> German-speaking lands?) an Überweisung rather than a paper check would
> be the standard method of paying rent.

Could well be. But neither is Helen's collecting the rent from her
flatmates and sending it to her father in any way 'standard'.

> 3. I realize these characters are not in Germany. However, among
> people
> their age in the United States, direct transfers (via Internet-
> accessed
> accounts) have become much more popular than writing paper checks. Is
> that not also the case in the UK?

I think you're right, that cheques are now being used less and less
in comparison to other kinds of money transfer. Personally, though, I
avoid on-line banking because of perceived security hazards.

>  4. If you say <eine Überweisung machen>, does that refer to a
> specific
> transfer method that is different from writing a check, or can the
> term
> also be used more generally to refer to any means of moving the money
> from A to B? If <Überweisung> is not the correct term for this more
> general concept of "transfer", than what is?

It can mean either. But I would in the absence of further details
assume that *Überweisung* in the context of a banking transaction
corresponds more to our 'bank giro transfer' than to the notion of a
cheque.

Alwyn already replied, but I'll add a few comments and
offer a few (humble) corrections.

On Sun, 2 Dec 2007. at 20:48 (GMT+5), Srikanth wrote:

> Gibt es ein bestimmte Wort für “to migrate” auf
> Deutsch?

ein *bestimmtes* Wort

> Ich weiß “auswandern”. Aber ich meine ein wort
> für die Computer  Anwendungen.

Perhaps:
- "Ich kenne (das Wort) 'auswandern'"
- "... ein Wort für die Anwendungen eines Computers"

Note that it's *der Computer* (masculine).

> Auf Englisch… “to migrate applications to a new
> version”.

This is off-topic perhaps, but as I understand it, you
migrate applications to a different *platform* and you
*upgrade* an application to a new version.

Perhaps what you're looking for is really "eine
Anwendung aktualisieren" or "ein Upgrade
machen/durchführen"?

> Vielen dank im Voraus.

I hope this helps :-)

Ignacio



       Jetzt Mails schnell in einem Vorschaufenster überfliegen. Dies und viel
mehr bietet das neue Yahoo! Mail - www.yahoo.de/mail

Hallo,
man kann "migrieren" sagen

Viele Grüße,
Rachel

Am 02.12.2007 um 16:18 schrieb Srikanth:

> Hallo ,
>
> Gibt es ein bestimmte Wort für “to migrate” auf Deutsch?
>
> Ich weiß “auswandern”. Aber ich meine ein wort für die Computer
> Anwendungen.
>
> Auf Englisch… “to migrate applications to a new version”.
>
> Vielen dank im Voraus.
>
> Srikanth…
>
> Now you can chat without downloading messenger. Go to
http://in.messenger.yahoo.com/webmessengerpromo.php
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
>



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

> Tim: Go on, guess.
> Alice: Tom Cruise, the man in the moon, no idea!

Tim: Komm schon, rat mal.
Alice: Tom Cruise, der Mann auf dem Mond, keine
Ahnung!

This is all that is left. Who wants to go next? :-)

> Tim: It's Helen’s dad!
> Alice: Helen’s dad! No way! Why would she keep
> that a secret?
> Helen: I'm just putting the kettle on. Anyone
> fancy a cuppa?

And just a couple of comments:

On Sun, 02 Dec 2007, at 09:22 (GMT-5), Bill Kelly
wrote:

> Alice: Wie oft muss ich's euch noch sagen: Das
> war doch keine Verabredung.
>
> [Why "Verabredung" instead of "Rendezvous"? I
> think it's funnier if Alice's friends keep
> repeating the one word "Rendezvous," to Alice's
> great annoyance.]

I also wondered why "Verabredung" instead of
"Rendezvous."  I agree that the latter (or "Date,"
like Martin suggested) sounds funnier.  Even though
"Verabredung" can also be translated as "a date"
<http://www.dict.cc/deutsch-englisch/Verabredung.html>,
I think I still prefer "Rendezvous" (or "Date").

> Alice: Wie soll ich das wissen? Wir geben der
> Helen das Geld und sie macht regelmässig eine
> Überweisung.

As for the method of payment, I think it was clever to
consider that the actual method used in
German-speaking countries may not be by check.
Perhaps it would be interesting to discuss "die
verschiedenen Zahlungsarten" in a separate thread?

Ignacio



        __________________________________  Ihre erste Baustelle? Wissenswertes
für Bastler und Hobby Handwerker. www.yahoo.de/clever

There's also a very helpful book called "English Grammar for
Students of German" by Cecile Zorach and Charlotte Melin. If you
have trouble understanding which words in a sentence are accusative,
dative, etc., this book gives examples in English and then in
German. And of course there's excercises at the end of each chapter.
Really good for learning German, and also for sprucing up your
English. ;)

--- In germanlanguageclub@yahoogroups.com, Bill Kelly <bkelly@...>
wrote:
>
> There is an interesting course, with a lot of audio and video
files, at
> Deutsche Welle:
> <http://deutschkurse.dw-
world.de/KursPlattform/WebObjects/KursPlattform.woa/wo/3.1>
>
> ACD wrote:
> >
> >
> >
> > Richtig, Herr Bill
> >
> > Presently I have learned only
> > ABCD
> > Das Verb(Prasens)
> > Das Verb sien
> > Personalpronomen
> >
> > With this I can form very few sentenses which are not enough to
write
> > "few lines in german" but with the help of book i can understand
> > manytimes what others are writing.
> >
> > Do you suggest any book (with publication details) or any
website where
> > I can master my pronounciation and grammer as well.
> > I am really interested and willing to master german grammer and
> > pronounication - please suggest any text and audio sources?
> >
> > Danke!
>

HELLO.I am from azerbaijan and iwant to speak germany,but i am still
learning english,after english i want tolearn germany and i want to
know about this language.i am studing at baku state university in
tourism faculty and i love to travel.if i can learn germany i want to
come your land to stay there and to work there,because this is my
wish.how can i learn germany very well?we have a club by name
Azerbaijan Youth Tourism Club.if someone wants to know about this
club,they can connect with us from this Group Email Addresses

Post message: azetourism@yahoogroups.com
Subscribe: azetourism-subscribe@yahoogroups.com
Unsubscribe: azetourism-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
List owner: azetourism-owner@yahoogroups.com
thank you for attention

On 3 Dec 2007, at 04:25, Ignacio wrote:

>> Tim: Go on, guess.
>> Alice: Tom Cruise, the man in the moon, no idea!
>
> Tim: Komm schon, rat mal.

Does anyone else feel that *komm schon!* is too urgent? I'd have said
*na komm!*.

> Alice: Tom Cruise, der Mann auf dem Mond, keine
> Ahnung!

*Der Mann im Mond*, not the same as *der erste Mann auf dem Mond*.

> This is all that is left. Who wants to go next? :-)
>
>> Tim: It's Helen’s dad!
>> Alice: Helen’s dad! No way! Why would she keep
>> that a secret?
>> Helen: I'm just putting the kettle on. Anyone
>> fancy a cuppa?

Tim: 'S ist der Helen ihr Paps!
Alice: Der Helen ihr Paps! Ausgeschlossen! Warum würde'n sie das
verschweigen?

What is the <'n> in Alice's question?

Alwyn wrote:
> Tim: 'S ist der Helen ihr Paps!
> Alice: Der Helen ihr Paps! Ausgeschlossen! Warum würde'n sie das
> verschweigen?

--

Bill Kelly
Connecticut USA

On 3 Dec 2007, at 18:39, Bill Kelly wrote:

> What is the <'n> in Alice's question?
>
> Alwyn wrote:
>> Tim: 'S ist der Helen ihr Paps!
>> Alice: Der Helen ihr Paps! Ausgeschlossen! Warum würde'n sie das
>> verschweigen?

I think it is a cliticized *denn*. More formally:

Warum würde sie denn das verschweigen?

That is interesting. So you can abbreviate or "cliticize" in this
fashion even if it changes the word order?

a. würde'n sie
b. würde sie denn

Hearing (a) spoken, I would jump to the conclusion that a plural "sie"
was intended: würden sie.

--

Alwyn wrote:

>
>
> On 3 Dec 2007, at 18:39, Bill Kelly wrote:
>
>  > What is the <'n> in Alice's question?
>  >
>  > Alwyn wrote:
>  >> Tim: 'S ist der Helen ihr Paps!
>  >> Alice: Der Helen ihr Paps! Ausgeschlossen! Warum würde'n sie das
>  >> verschweigen?
>
> I think it is a cliticized *denn*. More formally:
>
> Warum würde sie denn das verschweigen?

Am 03.12.2007 um 21:03 schrieb Bill Kelly:

> That is interesting. So you can abbreviate or "cliticize" in this
> fashion even if it changes the word order?
>
> a. würde'n sie
> b. würde sie denn

Nein, es muss heißen:
... würde sie 'n das ...

Martin



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

On 3 Dec 2007, at 20:03, Bill Kelly wrote:

> That is interesting. So you can abbreviate or "cliticize" in this
> fashion even if it changes the word order?
>
> a. würde'n sie
> b. würde sie denn
>
> Hearing (a) spoken, I would jump to the conclusion that a plural "sie"
> was intended: würden sie.

Yes, the 'n then moves to be next to the verb:

Hast'n du die Renate gesehen?
Wie seid’n ihr an den Schraubenzieher gekommen?
Was hört'n ihr für Musik?

My first example, though, did not pass the Martin test. The ambiguity
you point out above may well be the reason.

Okay, ich muss präzisieren:

Partikeln wie "denn" *können* vor dem Pronomen stehen, aber dann ist
das Pronomen *betont*:
Würde denn/'n SIE ...

Der Grund ist: unbetonte Pronomen müssen direkt rechts vom Verb
stehen (oder am Satzanfang). Betonte Pronomen können wie 'volle'
Nomen weiter rechts im Satz stehen.


> Yes, the 'n then moves to be next to the verb:
>
> Hast'n du die Renate gesehen?
> Wie seid’n ihr an den Schraubenzieher gekommen?
> Was hört'n ihr für Musik?
In allen diesen Beispielen ist "du"/"ihr" betont.

Martin




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