Thanks Joe - Better explanation than I found. Without asking I can tell you
what Lancair would tell you if you asked :)

Don't even think about it. Just go fly.

On Fri, Mar 30, 2012 at 10:31, Joseph Czabaranek <joeczabaranek@...>wrote:

> Turbulator tape is about a centimeter wide zig-zag strip of tape placed
> strategically to trip a laminar boundary layer into a turbulent boundary
> layer.
>
> Im skeptical of turbulator tape doing anything  beneficial without a
> detailed investigation into where EXACTLY to place it on a Lancair.  Skin
> friction goes up 6-9 times between laminar and turbulent flow (Laminar is
> better).  The airfoil on Lancairs was designed specifically to remain
> laminar as long as possible.  The catch is, turbulent flow can help flow
> remain attached longer.   That what vortex generators are for, thats what
> dimples on a golf ball are for.  If there are areas on the plane that might
> have separated flow then turbulator tape might help prevent separation at
> the cost of a laminar boundary layer and all that time you spent sanding,
> coating and waxing.  A wind tunnel, tufts, or oil on the plane can help
> identify separation bubbles that turbulator tape could prevent.  Laminar
> flow airfoils can generate these at about mid chord or slightly aft.  The
> wing isnt stalled but a small "bubble" of separated flow can form that
> reattaches before the trailing edge.  Turbulator tape might prevent this if
> you knew exactly where to place it.  Good luck guessing.
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> On Fri, Mar 30, 2012 at 10:00 AM, Schyzycs <schyzycs@...> wrote:
>
> > **
> >
> >
> > WTF is turbulator tape?
> >
> >
> > Schyzycs
> >
> > ________________________________
> > From: Hans Petr <0832593399@...>
> > To: Lancair 360 group Lancair <lancair@yahoogroups.com>
> > Sent: Friday, March 30, 2012 2:11 AM
> > Subject: [Lancair] Turbulator tape cruising speed increase on 360
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > I red up an article dated 1994 of 2 guys installing a turbulator tape and
> > getting a cruise speed increase of at least 6 knots.
> > Did any of you tried to install it with success ?
> >
> > If so , does anyone have measurements for me ?
> >
> > Kind regards
> > Hans
> >
> > --
> > This message has been scanned for viruses and
> > dangerous content by Pinpoint, and is
> > believed to be clean.
> >
> > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> >
> > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> >
> >
> >
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
>
> ------------------------------------
>
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

I tried using tape on the wing join points and after it was time to remove and
replace the tape, the removal pulled some of the paint away.  Probably more
trouble than it's worth. 

Cory


________________________________
  From: Glenn Long <glenn.long@...>
To: lancair@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Friday, March 30, 2012 10:36 AM
Subject: Re: [Lancair] Turbulator tape cruising speed increase on 360


 
Thanks Joe - Better explanation than I found. Without asking I can tell you
what Lancair would tell you if you asked :)

Don't even think about it. Just go fly.

On Fri, Mar 30, 2012 at 10:31, Joseph Czabaranek <joeczabaranek@...>wrote:

> Turbulator tape is about a centimeter wide zig-zag strip of tape placed
> strategically to trip a laminar boundary layer into a turbulent boundary
> layer.
>
> Im skeptical of turbulator tape doing anything  beneficial without a
> detailed investigation into where EXACTLY to place it on a Lancair.  Skin
> friction goes up 6-9 times between laminar and turbulent flow (Laminar is
> better).  The airfoil on Lancairs was designed specifically to remain
> laminar as long as possible.  The catch is, turbulent flow can help flow
> remain attached longer.   That what vortex generators are for, thats what
> dimples on a golf ball are for.  If there are areas on the plane that might
> have separated flow then turbulator tape might help prevent separation at
> the cost of a laminar boundary layer and all that time you spent sanding,
> coating and waxing.  A wind tunnel, tufts, or oil on the plane can help
> identify separation bubbles that turbulator tape could prevent.  Laminar
> flow airfoils can generate these at about mid chord or slightly aft.  The
> wing isnt stalled but a small "bubble" of separated flow can form that
> reattaches before the trailing edge.  Turbulator tape might prevent this if
> you knew exactly where to place it.  Good luck guessing.
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> On Fri, Mar 30, 2012 at 10:00 AM, Schyzycs <schyzycs@...> wrote:
>
> > **
> >
> >
> > WTF is turbulator tape?
> >
> >
> > Schyzycs
> >
> > ________________________________
> > From: Hans Petr <0832593399@...>
> > To: Lancair 360 group Lancair <lancair@yahoogroups.com>
> > Sent: Friday, March 30, 2012 2:11 AM
> > Subject: [Lancair] Turbulator tape cruising speed increase on 360
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > I red up an article dated 1994 of 2 guys installing a turbulator tape and
> > getting a cruise speed increase of at least 6 knots.
> > Did any of you tried to install it with success ?
> >
> > If so , does anyone have measurements for me ?
> >
> > Kind regards
> > Hans
> >
> > --
> > This message has been scanned for viruses and
> > dangerous content by Pinpoint, and is
> > believed to be clean.
> >
> > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> >
> > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> >
> >
> >
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
>
> ------------------------------------
>
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Hi Joe and everybody,

Where to place turbulator tape is easier to determine than it might seem.
Basically, all it is doing is energizing the boundary layer at the point of
separation, so that the laminar flow continues further back.  The longer
that you can delay the separation, the more efficient the airfoil becomes,
the lower the drag.  You can find the point of seperation a couple of
different ways, one is a dirty oil test, throw some dirty oil on the
leading edge of the wing, go fly, you will see the point that the streaks
go from being straight back (indicating laminar flow) to sideways, or
puddling, or whatever odd behavior you get out of it (indicating the point
that the flow separates).  Clean up the wing, place the turbulator tape
just ahead of this put on new oil and try it again.  You should now see
that the tape causes the point of separation to move back.  If you want to
test it for cheap, grab a set of pinking shears and some duct tape and make
your own for testing before your order the good stuff.  If you don't like
the dirty oil, you can always tuft test it using small pieces of string and
tape to hold them on, the ones that are going straight back are in clean
airflow, the ones that are flying around wildly are in separated airflow.

That said, I think that the bigger efficiency improvements are to be found
in getting proper airflow through the cowling...

Have fun!
TJ

On Fri, Mar 30, 2012 at 8:31 AM, Joseph Czabaranek
<joeczabaranek@...>wrote:

> Turbulator tape is about a centimeter wide zig-zag strip of tape placed
> strategically to trip a laminar boundary layer into a turbulent boundary
> layer.
>
> Im skeptical of turbulator tape doing anything  beneficial without a
> detailed investigation into where EXACTLY to place it on a Lancair.  Skin
> friction goes up 6-9 times between laminar and turbulent flow (Laminar is
> better).  The airfoil on Lancairs was designed specifically to remain
> laminar as long as possible.  The catch is, turbulent flow can help flow
> remain attached longer.   That what vortex generators are for, thats what
> dimples on a golf ball are for.  If there are areas on the plane that might
> have separated flow then turbulator tape might help prevent separation at
> the cost of a laminar boundary layer and all that time you spent sanding,
> coating and waxing.  A wind tunnel, tufts, or oil on the plane can help
> identify separation bubbles that turbulator tape could prevent.  Laminar
> flow airfoils can generate these at about mid chord or slightly aft.  The
> wing isnt stalled but a small "bubble" of separated flow can form that
> reattaches before the trailing edge.  Turbulator tape might prevent this if
> you knew exactly where to place it.  Good luck guessing.
>
>
> --
>
TJ
PIK20 N202PK
VariEze N25TB
Glasair II FT in progress

www.simplytj.com


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Hi TJ ,
I have done the cowling mod and have gained about 3 knots .
As far as the dirty oil goes , I have tried it first with little oil , the oil
ran all the way to the trailing edge of the flap and aileron.
The second time I have put a lot more oil , after I have landed there was no oil
at the bottom of the wing , all of it was again on the trailing edge of the flap
and aileron.
I believe the break point is 0.6 of the chord line .
Just to make sure , I will be placing the turbulator tape at the bottom of the
wings ?


Kind regards
Hans

----- Reply message -----
From: "TJ Johnson" <misbehaved@...>
To: <lancair@yahoogroups.com>
Subject: [Lancair] Turbulator tape cruising speed increase on 360
Date: Wed, Apr 4, 2012 00:59
Hi Joe and everybody,



Where to place turbulator tape is easier to determine than it might seem.

Basically, all it is doing is energizing the boundary layer at the point of

separation, so that the laminar flow continues further back.  The longer

that you can delay the separation, the more efficient the airfoil becomes,

the lower the drag.  You can find the point of seperation a couple of

different ways, one is a dirty oil test, throw some dirty oil on the

leading edge of the wing, go fly, you will see the point that the streaks

go from being straight back (indicating laminar flow) to sideways, or

puddling, or whatever odd behavior you get out of it (indicating the point

that the flow separates).  Clean up the wing, place the turbulator tape

just ahead of this put on new oil and try it again.  You should now see

that the tape causes the point of separation to move back.  If you want to

test it for cheap, grab a set of pinking shears and some duct tape and make

your own for testing before your order the good stuff.  If you don't like

the dirty oil, you can always tuft test it using small pieces of string and

tape to hold them on, the ones that are going straight back are in clean

airflow, the ones that are flying around wildly are in separated airflow.



That said, I think that the bigger efficiency improvements are to be found

in getting proper airflow through the cowling...



Have fun!

TJ



On Fri, Mar 30, 2012 at 8:31 AM, Joseph Czabaranek

<joeczabaranek@...>wrote:



> Turbulator tape is about a centimeter wide zig-zag strip of tape placed

> strategically to trip a laminar boundary layer into a turbulent boundary

> layer.

>

> Im skeptical of turbulator tape doing anything  beneficial without a

> detailed investigation into where EXACTLY to place it on a Lancair.  Skin

> friction goes up 6-9 times between laminar and turbulent flow (Laminar is

> better).  The airfoil on Lancairs was designed specifically to remain

> laminar as long as possible.  The catch is, turbulent flow can help flow

> remain attached longer.   That what vortex generators are for, thats what

> dimples on a golf ball are for.  If there are areas on the plane that might

> have separated flow then turbulator tape might help prevent separation at

> the cost of a laminar boundary layer and all that time you spent sanding,

> coating and waxing.  A wind tunnel, tufts, or oil on the plane can help

> identify separation bubbles that turbulator tape could prevent.  Laminar

> flow airfoils can generate these at about mid chord or slightly aft.  The

> wing isnt stalled but a small "bubble" of separated flow can form that

> reattaches before the trailing edge.  Turbulator tape might prevent this if

> you knew exactly where to place it.  Good luck guessing.

>

>

> --

>

TJ

PIK20 N202PK

VariEze N25TB

Glasair II FT in progress



www.simplytj.com



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]










--
This message has been scanned for viruses and
dangerous content by Pinpoint, and is
believed to be clean.



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Hi Hans,

I appologize, I am having a hard time envisioning what you saw with the
oil.  If I understand you correctly, when you landed, you had straight
streaks of oil all the way from the leading edge of the wing to the
trailing edge of the flaps/ailerons on the top.  If so, this would indicate
that on the top of the wing, flow is staying laminar and there is no
improvement needed.  If on the bottom side, the streaks went from straight
back to divergent at 60% of the chord, then yes, you would place the tape
just ahead of that point and retest to see if the flow now stayed attached
further aft.  You can always put on a foot or so of the tape where it is
indicated, then test at that spot, and again at a different part of the
wing that doesn't have the tape and compare them to see if you were
successful at extending the laminar flow at that point.

Have fun!
TJ

On Wed, Apr 4, 2012 at 8:41 AM, Hans Petr <0832593399@...>wrote:

> **
>
>
> Hi TJ ,
> I have done the cowling mod and have gained about 3 knots .
> As far as the dirty oil goes , I have tried it first with little oil , the
> oil ran all the way to the trailing edge of the flap and aileron.
> The second time I have put a lot more oil , after I have landed there was
> no oil at the bottom of the wing , all of it was again on the trailing edge
> of the flap and aileron.
> I believe the break point is 0.6 of the chord line .
> Just to make sure , I will be placing the turbulator tape at the bottom of
> the wings ?
>
> Kind regards
> Hans
>
>
>
>

--
TJ
PIK20 N202PK
VariEze N25TB
Glasair II FT in progress

www.simplytj.com


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

More info than you probably wanted to know about testing for laminar flow
and using deturbulators...

http://www.deturbulator.org/Progress-OilFlows.asp

The whole web page is a fun read!


TJ
PIK20 N202PK
VariEze N25TB
Glasair II FT in progress

www.simplytj.com


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Hi Folks,

I'm working on a 235 kit and was curious about a dimension.  The builder's
manual shows the leading edge of the right stub wing to be 9-1/2" foreward of
the main spar, while the left stub wing is 9-1/4".  This 1/4" difference starts
at the wing root moulded into the fuselage halves.  Anyone know if there is a
reason for this, or is it just un-intended asymetry of the L+R fuselage molds?

Rich Kindig

I've just acquired a 25% complete slow-build kit. The seller was extremely
accomodating, has another kit under construction, but lives about 700 miles from
me, so apart from initial contact it's hard to peer over his shoulder.

Would anyone in the Chicago IL area with either a flying example - or a project
under construction - be kind enough to let me stop by their workshop / hangar
and chat over construction methods, time-saving tips, MK 2 tails etc ?

I live in Lake County, IL

Thanks !

I have a 360 with the original stock gear and the shock rather than rubber
grommet.

After a landing with a significant cross wind I noticed one of the mains (the
one on the leeward side of the landing) seemed to be setting at a different
angle versus the other main.  I did get blown across the runway upon touch down
but it was not a hard landing but the lateral force was probably high due to the
tanks being full.

When looking at the mains they usually appear to be canted out a few degrees but
after this landing it looks like the affected main is either straight up and
down or even canted in toward the center line by a small degree.  The difference
between the two seems to be about 2 inches at the tire.

I looked for obvious damage but could not discern any problems within the gear
well or attach points and did not notice any obvious structural issues.  I could
not tell why or how the gear seemed to be off from one another.

Additionally I did move the plane around on the ramp to see if it was just a
weight issue thinking the plane had just settled that way on the ramp.  The gear
did not change after moving the plane on the ramp.

The only obvious fix I could see was to jack the plane and reset the position of
the lock nut on the gear arm locking mechanism to push the gear out further but
this would seem to be masking the cause of the problem.

Has anybody had a similar experience?

Thanks,

Cory

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

I had the same problem a while back after a less than hard landing.  I took the
wheel off and took a small ram on a 4 ton porta power and pushed the axle back
in place a little at a time.  I measured each time as not to push too much. 
After I got it to where it looked right, I placed a lazer on the wheel and
measured 8' in front of the wheels on both sides and 8' in front of both wheels
on the front and compared the distance between the front and back.  It was 1/8"
toe in at the front.  Then I checked the camber (degrees in or out at the top
of the wheels) It was about one degree postive at the top on both wheels.  I
took the plane out and taxied it a couple of times and then went flying.  It
rolls out better than it ever has on landing.  If you do this make sure you
have a good level surface to work on. 



________________________________
From: C Adams <coryadams@...>
To: "lancair@yahoogroups.com" <lancair@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Tuesday, May 8, 2012 2:18 PM
Subject: [Lancair] Possible gear issue on a 360


 
I have a 360 with the original stock gear and the shock rather than rubber
grommet.

After a landing with a significant cross wind I noticed one of the mains (the
one on the leeward side of the landing) seemed to be setting at a different
angle versus the other main.  I did get blown across the runway upon touch down
but it was not a hard landing but the lateral force was probably high due to the
tanks being full.

When looking at the mains they usually appear to be canted out a few degrees but
after this landing it looks like the affected main is either straight up and
down or even canted in toward the center line by a small degree.  The
difference between the two seems to be about 2 inches at the tire.

I looked for obvious damage but could not discern any problems within the gear
well or attach points and did not notice any obvious structural issues.  I
could not tell why or how the gear seemed to be off from one another.

Additionally I did move the plane around on the ramp to see if it was just a
weight issue thinking the plane had just settled that way on the ramp.  The
gear did not change after moving the plane on the ramp.

The only obvious fix I could see was to jack the plane and reset the position of
the lock nut on the gear arm locking mechanism to push the gear out further but
this would seem to be masking the cause of the problem.

Has anybody had a similar experience?

Thanks,

Cory

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Hi Lee,

Did this mean that your axle had been bent upwards from the attach point? 

If I understand the problem that you addressed it seems to be different that
mine in that my entire main gear assembly seems to be bent inward and not just
the axle at the wheel?  Or where you actually pushing/bending the main gear
strut?  

Thanks,

Cory


________________________________
  From: Lee Parker <le62347@...>
To: "lancair@yahoogroups.com" <lancair@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Tuesday, May 8, 2012 3:32 PM
Subject: Re: [Lancair] Possible gear issue on a 360


 
I had the same problem a while back after a less than hard landing.  I took the
wheel off and took a small ram on a 4 ton porta power and pushed the axle back
in place a little at a time.  I measured each time as not to push too much. 
After I got it to where it looked right, I placed a lazer on the wheel and
measured 8' in front of the wheels on both sides and 8' in front of both wheels
on the front and compared the distance between the front and back.  It was 1/8"
toe in at the front.  Then I checked the camber (degrees in or out at the top
of the wheels) It was about one degree postive at the top on both wheels.  I
took the plane out and taxied it a couple of times and then went flying.  It
rolls out better than it ever has on landing.  If you do this make sure you
have a good level surface to work on. 

________________________________
From: C Adams <coryadams@...>
To: "lancair@yahoogroups.com" <lancair@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Tuesday, May 8, 2012 2:18 PM
Subject: [Lancair] Possible gear issue on a 360

 
I have a 360 with the original stock gear and the shock rather than rubber
grommet.

After a landing with a significant cross wind I noticed one of the mains (the
one on the leeward side of the landing) seemed to be setting at a different
angle versus the other main.  I did get blown across the runway upon touch down
but it was not a hard landing but the lateral force was probably high due to the
tanks being full.

When looking at the mains they usually appear to be canted out a few degrees but
after this landing it looks like the affected main is either straight up and
down or even canted in toward the center line by a small degree.  The
difference between the two seems to be about 2 inches at the tire.

I looked for obvious damage but could not discern any problems within the gear
well or attach points and did not notice any obvious structural issues.  I
could not tell why or how the gear seemed to be off from one another.

Additionally I did move the plane around on the ramp to see if it was just a
weight issue thinking the plane had just settled that way on the ramp.  The
gear did not change after moving the plane on the ramp.

The only obvious fix I could see was to jack the plane and reset the position of
the lock nut on the gear arm locking mechanism to push the gear out further but
this would seem to be masking the cause of the problem.

Has anybody had a similar experience?

Thanks,

Cory

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Hello Cory,

I'd like to first ask if you have complied with Service Bulletin SB050-0999. 
You can find this here:  http://www.lancair.com/media/bulletins/SB050.pdf

It is possible that the GM13 attach block has come loose and is hidden from
inspection from the GM4 bracket (I know you mentioned that there is no obvious
damage, but obviously if the gear is in an altered position, then there is some
damage some where). So you might want to look there...


I would think most likely the main gear weldment is bent. Ensure the arm is
perfectly straight from the GM4 bracket, at the "gear arm locking mechanism" and
beyond.  As you mentioned, resetting the position of the lock nut on the over
center link will be masking the problem.  Where the gear assembly has taken the
load, it is structurally weakened, so I would very look carefully.

Good luck!
Lamberto



________________________________
  From: C Adams <coryadams@...>
To: "lancair@yahoogroups.com" <lancair@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Tuesday, May 8, 2012 2:18 PM
Subject: [Lancair] Possible gear issue on a 360


 
I have a 360 with the original stock gear and the shock rather than rubber
grommet.

After a landing with a significant cross wind I noticed one of the mains (the
one on the leeward side of the landing) seemed to be setting at a different
angle versus the other main.  I did get blown across the runway upon touch down
but it was not a hard landing but the lateral force was probably high due to the
tanks being full.

When looking at the mains they usually appear to be canted out a few degrees but
after this landing it looks like the affected main is either straight up and
down or even canted in toward the center line by a small degree.  The
difference between the two seems to be about 2 inches at the tire.

I looked for obvious damage but could not discern any problems within the gear
well or attach points and did not notice any obvious structural issues.  I
could not tell why or how the gear seemed to be off from one another.

Additionally I did move the plane around on the ramp to see if it was just a
weight issue thinking the plane had just settled that way on the ramp.  The
gear did not change after moving the plane on the ramp.

The only obvious fix I could see was to jack the plane and reset the position of
the lock nut on the gear arm locking mechanism to push the gear out further but
this would seem to be masking the cause of the problem.

Has anybody had a similar experience?

Thanks,

Cory

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

I couldn't find anything bent.  I think the whole thing was sprung.  I gently
pushed it back in the right direction until I was satisfied with it and measured
it each time.  I have some experience with two other Lancairs that suffered the
same problem.  We did the same thing to them, being careful not to push too
hard  and checking for any stress or cracks.  I guess that's why some people
go to the outback gear.  Also check to see if the SB has been done on your
gear.


________________________________
From: C Adams <coryadams@...>
To: "lancair@yahoogroups.com" <lancair@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Tuesday, May 8, 2012 3:47 PM
Subject: Re: [Lancair] Possible gear issue on a 360


 
Hi Lee,

Did this mean that your axle had been bent upwards from the attach point? 

If I understand the problem that you addressed it seems to be different that
mine in that my entire main gear assembly seems to be bent inward and not just
the axle at the wheel?  Or where you actually pushing/bending the main gear
strut?  

Thanks,

Cory

________________________________
From: Lee Parker <le62347@...>
To: "lancair@yahoogroups.com" <lancair@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Tuesday, May 8, 2012 3:32 PM
Subject: Re: [Lancair] Possible gear issue on a 360


 
I had the same problem a while back after a less than hard landing.  I took the
wheel off and took a small ram on a 4 ton porta power and pushed the axle back
in place a little at a time.  I measured each time as not to push too much. 
After I got it to where it looked right, I placed a lazer on the wheel and
measured 8' in front of the wheels on both sides and 8' in front of both wheels
on the front and compared the distance between the front and back.  It was 1/8"
toe in at the front.  Then I checked the camber (degrees in or out at the top
of the wheels) It was about one degree postive at the top on both wheels.  I
took the plane out and taxied it a couple of times and then went flying.  It
rolls out better than it ever has on landing.  If you do this make sure you
have a good level surface to work on. 

________________________________
From: C Adams <coryadams@...>
To: "lancair@yahoogroups.com" <lancair@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Tuesday, May 8, 2012 2:18 PM
Subject: [Lancair] Possible gear issue on a 360

 
I have a 360 with the original stock gear and the shock rather than rubber
grommet.

After a landing with a significant cross wind I noticed one of the mains (the
one on the leeward side of the landing) seemed to be setting at a different
angle versus the other main.  I did get blown across the runway upon touch down
but it was not a hard landing but the lateral force was probably high due to the
tanks being full.

When looking at the mains they usually appear to be canted out a few degrees but
after this landing it looks like the affected main is either straight up and
down or even canted in toward the center line by a small degree.  The
difference between the two seems to be about 2 inches at the tire.

I looked for obvious damage but could not discern any problems within the gear
well or attach points and did not notice any obvious structural issues.  I
could not tell why or how the gear seemed to be off from one another.

Additionally I did move the plane around on the ramp to see if it was just a
weight issue thinking the plane had just settled that way on the ramp.  The
gear did not change after moving the plane on the ramp.

The only obvious fix I could see was to jack the plane and reset the position of
the lock nut on the gear arm locking mechanism to push the gear out further but
this would seem to be masking the cause of the problem.

Has anybody had a similar experience?

Thanks,

Cory

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Lamberto and Lee,

Thank you for the SB link.  I will check to see if the SB has been complied
with and also inspect the attach points for any damage.

Lee I may hit you up for more detail on what you had done but will also look to
see if the gear assembly itself is bent in any way with a straight edge which I
think is possible if there is no damage to the attach points.

Thank you,

Cory


________________________________
  From: Lamberto Roscioli <lamberto_r@...>
To: "lancair@yahoogroups.com" <lancair@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Tuesday, May 8, 2012 8:35 PM
Subject: Re: [Lancair] Possible gear issue on a 360


 
Hello Cory,

I'd like to first ask if you have complied with Service Bulletin SB050-0999. 
You can find this here:  http://www.lancair.com/media/bulletins/SB050.pdf

It is possible that the GM13 attach block has come loose and is hidden from
inspection from the GM4 bracket (I know you mentioned that there is no obvious
damage, but obviously if the gear is in an altered position, then there is some
damage some where). So you might want to look there...

I would think most likely the main gear weldment is bent. Ensure the arm is
perfectly straight from the GM4 bracket, at the "gear arm locking mechanism" and
beyond.  As you mentioned, resetting the position of the lock nut on the over
center link will be masking the problem.  Where the gear assembly has taken the
load, it is structurally weakened, so I would very look carefully.

Good luck!
Lamberto

________________________________
From: C Adams <coryadams@...>
To: "lancair@yahoogroups.com" <lancair@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Tuesday, May 8, 2012 2:18 PM
Subject: [Lancair] Possible gear issue on a 360


 
I have a 360 with the original stock gear and the shock rather than rubber
grommet.

After a landing with a significant cross wind I noticed one of the mains (the
one on the leeward side of the landing) seemed to be setting at a different
angle versus the other main.  I did get blown across the runway upon touch down
but it was not a hard landing but the lateral force was probably high due to the
tanks being full.

When looking at the mains they usually appear to be canted out a few degrees but
after this landing it looks like the affected main is either straight up and
down or even canted in toward the center line by a small degree.  The
difference between the two seems to be about 2 inches at the tire.

I looked for obvious damage but could not discern any problems within the gear
well or attach points and did not notice any obvious structural issues.  I
could not tell why or how the gear seemed to be off from one another.

Additionally I did move the plane around on the ramp to see if it was just a
weight issue thinking the plane had just settled that way on the ramp.  The
gear did not change after moving the plane on the ramp.

The only obvious fix I could see was to jack the plane and reset the position of
the lock nut on the gear arm locking mechanism to push the gear out further but
this would seem to be masking the cause of the problem.

Has anybody had a similar experience?

Thanks,

Cory

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

I checked the gear and found that one was bent out about 1.3 degrees with the
other bent in about 3.2 degrees.  When I took a straight edge to the top of the
gear I could see that it bent near the top where the gear lock meats the main.

Also I did confirm that the SB was done.

Lee can please you share how you bent the gear back using the Porta Power?  Did
you take the gear off entirely to do this or was there some way that you found
to brace the gear in place to do this and if so how was that done?

Thanks,

Cory


________________________________
  From: Lee Parker <le62347@...>
To: "lancair@yahoogroups.com" <lancair@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Tuesday, May 8, 2012 8:45 PM
Subject: Re: [Lancair] Possible gear issue on a 360


 
I couldn't find anything bent.  I think the whole thing was sprung.  I gently
pushed it back in the right direction until I was satisfied with it and measured
it each time.  I have some experience with two other Lancairs that suffered the
same problem.  We did the same thing to them, being careful not to push too
hard  and checking for any stress or cracks.  I guess that's why some people
go to the outback gear.  Also check to see if the SB has been done on your
gear.

________________________________
From: C Adams <coryadams@...>
To: "lancair@yahoogroups.com" <lancair@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Tuesday, May 8, 2012 3:47 PM
Subject: Re: [Lancair] Possible gear issue on a 360

 
Hi Lee,

Did this mean that your axle had been bent upwards from the attach point? 

If I understand the problem that you addressed it seems to be different that
mine in that my entire main gear assembly seems to be bent inward and not just
the axle at the wheel?  Or where you actually pushing/bending the main gear
strut?  

Thanks,

Cory

________________________________
From: Lee Parker <le62347@...>
To: "lancair@yahoogroups.com" <lancair@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Tuesday, May 8, 2012 3:32 PM
Subject: Re: [Lancair] Possible gear issue on a 360

 
I had the same problem a while back after a less than hard landing.  I took the
wheel off and took a small ram on a 4 ton porta power and pushed the axle back
in place a little at a time.  I measured each time as not to push too much. 
After I got it to where it looked right, I placed a lazer on the wheel and
measured 8' in front of the wheels on both sides and 8' in front of both wheels
on the front and compared the distance between the front and back.  It was 1/8"
toe in at the front.  Then I checked the camber (degrees in or out at the top
of the wheels) It was about one degree postive at the top on both wheels.  I
took the plane out and taxied it a couple of times and then went flying.  It
rolls out better than it ever has on landing.  If you do this make sure you
have a good level surface to work on. 

________________________________
From: C Adams <coryadams@...>
To: "lancair@yahoogroups.com" <lancair@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Tuesday, May 8, 2012 2:18 PM
Subject: [Lancair] Possible gear issue on a 360

 
I have a 360 with the original stock gear and the shock rather than rubber
grommet.

After a landing with a significant cross wind I noticed one of the mains (the
one on the leeward side of the landing) seemed to be setting at a different
angle versus the other main.  I did get blown across the runway upon touch down
but it was not a hard landing but the lateral force was probably high due to the
tanks being full.

When looking at the mains they usually appear to be canted out a few degrees but
after this landing it looks like the affected main is either straight up and
down or even canted in toward the center line by a small degree.  The
difference between the two seems to be about 2 inches at the tire.

I looked for obvious damage but could not discern any problems within the gear
well or attach points and did not notice any obvious structural issues.  I
could not tell why or how the gear seemed to be off from one another.

Additionally I did move the plane around on the ramp to see if it was just a
weight issue thinking the plane had just settled that way on the ramp.  The
gear did not change after moving the plane on the ramp.

The only obvious fix I could see was to jack the plane and reset the position of
the lock nut on the gear arm locking mechanism to push the gear out further but
this would seem to be masking the cause of the problem.

Has anybody had a similar experience?

Thanks,

Cory

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Hi all,

Purchased a Dynon heated pitot with AOA the other day. Pulled it out of the box
and the thing looks like it was made to fit on a P-38!! HUGE compared to the one
on my cessna 150 that is. But, it's shiny so I was still excited. Instructions
say it needs to be 6 inches below the wing and 2 to 12 inches aft of the leading
edge... ummm there is no way that can happen because the spar from the wing
comes right into that area.

So, what have other done here. How much of a bend can i put on the aluminum
tubes that come out of the top of pitot?  Anyone have pics of their pitot
installations? I have taken pics of lancairs at past sun n fun and oshkosh
flyins and don't recall seeing such a monster on any of those planes (the
opening on this thing makes it look like a puffer fish).

As an update for those that may be interested (I wonder if my mom is reading
this lol). All building is pretty much complete except for fitting of the
cowling and locking mech on canopy. Currently wiring electricals (about to test
gear) then it's engine and prop. Who knows.. if money holds out.. she may fly
soon. Going to get registration marks next week sometime yippeeeee!!!

Thanks in advance.
Tony

Yep its a big-un for sure. I mounted mine on the outboard end of the wing,
just behind the spar. The al tubes are very soft and flexible, they bend
thru the end bulkhead, and then connect to tubing that runs around the end
of the spar to a PVC pipe that runs ahead of the spar back to the cockpit.
I built a streamlined pedestal into the wing that holds the pitot 2" below
the wing.

I'm not flying yet either, still lots of sanding to do.

Chuck Dunlap


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

I mounted my Dynon heated pitot tube (which, by the way, worked when I needed it
at 17,000') near the outboard end of the wing root just in front of the spar on
a streamlined mast I made of fiberglass.  Easy to work on and install with wing
removed, works well.
Jay
To: lancair@yahoogroups.com
From: chuck.dunlap@...
Date: Fri, 1 Jun 2012 07:38:45 -0700
Subject: [Lancair] Re: Dynon pitot tube location issues


























       Yep its a big-un for sure. I mounted mine on the outboard end of the wing,

just behind the spar. The al tubes are very soft and flexible, they bend

thru the end bulkhead, and then connect to tubing that runs around the end

of the spar to a PVC pipe that runs ahead of the spar back to the cockpit.

I built a streamlined pedestal into the wing that holds the pitot 2" below

the wing.



I'm not flying yet either, still lots of sanding to do.



Chuck Dunlap



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]


















[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Thanks Jay,  So the front of the pitot tube was flush with the leading edge as
I don't see it even going two inches back of the leading edge as Dynon suggest
(mind you, lancair said flush with leading edge so who knows).
 
-Tony


________________________________
From: Jay Roberts <jaroberts428dm@...>
To: Lancair Group <lancair@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Monday, June 4, 2012 7:29 AM
Subject: RE: [Lancair] Re: Dynon pitot tube location issues


I mounted my Dynon heated pitot tube (which, by the way, worked when I needed it
at 17,000') near the outboard end of the wing root just in front of the spar on
a streamlined mast I made of fiberglass.  Easy to work on and install with wing
removed, works well.
Jay
To: lancair@yahoogroups.com
From: chuck.dunlap@...
Date: Fri, 1 Jun 2012 07:38:45 -0700
Subject: [Lancair] Re: Dynon pitot tube location issues




















 


   
     
     
      Yep its a big-un for sure. I mounted mine on the outboard end of the wing,

just behind the spar. The al tubes are very soft and flexible, they bend

thru the end bulkhead, and then connect to tubing that runs around the end

of the spar to a PVC pipe that runs ahead of the spar back to the cockpit.

I built a streamlined pedestal into the wing that holds the pitot 2" below

the wing.



I'm not flying yet either, still lots of sanding to do.



Chuck Dunlap



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]





   
   

   
   






                         

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]



------------------------------------

Yahoo! Groups Links



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Hello all,

Well have been struggling with landing gear hydraulics since sunday. I
discovered several things. The first, is that no matter how much shampoo you
use, the smell of hydraulic fluid does not go away with ease, and that thowing
away your fluid drenched shirt, pants, socks, and shoes is a lot easier than
washing them. Ohhh and NEVER listen to a guy who SAYS he is a hydraulics
expert... OHHHH and "finger tightening" is not really finger tightening.

Ok, so, finally got it all tightened up and got the gear going... very exciting
stuff!! However, it seemed to not make it up all the way. Took several attempts.
I upped the high pressure switch with a quarter turn of the screw as suggested
in manual and that seemed to solve the issue. However, the gear would not go
down anymore and had to use the freefall handle. After that happened, the gear
once more, on the upward direction, took several cycles to get the gear tucked
away.

To clarify, the power, ground, and breaker are connected temporarily and
switching up/down is done by applying the up or down wire to the power.

Also, tucked in the gear last night and went back to it this morning and there
was no drop or movement of the gear so I "know" I have no leak anywhere.

Has anyone had to do more than that 1.4 turn of the pressure screw. Any input on
hydraulics and time to gear tuck? stalling of upward motion, etc.

Thanks in advance,
Tony

Tony,
The behavior you describe sounds very much like a reversed spool valve.  A
reversed valve reduces your net working pressure for retraction.  Pressure
readings can confirm this.  See the section on reversed spool valves here for
more detail:
http://www.n91cz.com/Hydraulics/Lancair%20Hydraulics.pdf
Chris Zavatson
N91CZ
360std
www.N91CZ.net

On Jun 7, 2012, at 5:33 AM, "Anthony" <cdnpilot2002@...> wrote:

> Hello all,
>
> Well have been struggling with landing gear hydraulics since sunday. I
discovered several things. The first, is that no matter how much shampoo you
use, the smell of hydraulic fluid does not go away with ease, and that thowing
away your fluid drenched shirt, pants, socks, and shoes is a lot easier than
washing them. Ohhh and NEVER listen to a guy who SAYS he is a hydraulics
expert... OHHHH and "finger tightening" is not really finger tightening.
>
> Ok, so, finally got it all tightened up and got the gear going... very
exciting stuff!! However, it seemed to not make it up all the way. Took several
attempts. I upped the high pressure switch with a quarter turn of the screw as
suggested in manual and that seemed to solve the issue. However, the gear would
not go down anymore and had to use the freefall handle. After that happened, the
gear once more, on the upward direction, took several cycles to get the gear
tucked away.
>
> To clarify, the power, ground, and breaker are connected temporarily and
switching up/down is done by applying the up or down wire to the power.
>
> Also, tucked in the gear last night and went back to it this morning and there
was no drop or movement of the gear so I "know" I have no leak anywhere.
>
> Has anyone had to do more than that 1.4 turn of the pressure screw. Any input
on hydraulics and time to gear tuck? stalling of upward motion, etc.
>
> Thanks in advance,
> Tony
>
>
>
>
>
>
>

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Yes, I went close to flush, slightly behind leading edge, on the mast as shown,
and it provides reasonably accurate readings.  And a lot easier to install and
get to when modifying than further out on the wing.  Two other Lancair 320's
also put it there that I know of.
Jay

To: lancair@yahoogroups.com
From: cdnpilot2002@...
Date: Mon, 4 Jun 2012 04:33:29 -0700
Subject: Re: [Lancair] Re: Dynon pitot tube location issues


























       Thanks Jay,  So the front of the pitot tube was flush with the leading
edge as I don't see it even going two inches back of the leading edge as Dynon
suggest (mind you, lancair said flush with leading edge so who knows).



-Tony



________________________________

From: Jay Roberts <jaroberts428dm@...>

To: Lancair Group <lancair@yahoogroups.com>

Sent: Monday, June 4, 2012 7:29 AM

Subject: RE: [Lancair] Re: Dynon pitot tube location issues



I mounted my Dynon heated pitot tube (which, by the way, worked when I needed it
at 17,000') near the outboard end of the wing root just in front of the spar on
a streamlined mast I made of fiberglass.  Easy to work on and install with wing
removed, works well.

Jay

To: lancair@yahoogroups.com

From: chuck.dunlap@...

Date: Fri, 1 Jun 2012 07:38:45 -0700

Subject: [Lancair] Re: Dynon pitot tube location issues













       Yep its a big-un for sure. I mounted mine on the outboard end of the wing,



just behind the spar. The al tubes are very soft and flexible, they bend



thru the end bulkhead, and then connect to tubing that runs around the end



of the spar to a PVC pipe that runs ahead of the spar back to the cockpit.



I built a streamlined pedestal into the wing that holds the pitot 2" below



the wing.



I'm not flying yet either, still lots of sanding to do.



Chuck Dunlap



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]



















[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]



------------------------------------



Yahoo! Groups Links



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]


















[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Hartzell Propeller. HC-C2YK-1BF. Serial CH2825. Blades F7666A-6 EXP 72". This is
an Experimental prop that just came off my Lancair 360. TSO 340 hours. Eddy
Current tested. Comes with Fiberglass Backplate, Lancair Spinner and 2" Spacer.
Spinner Painted Pearl White. This prop flew my Lancair a consistant 200 ~ 220
Knots Cruise. Well maintained with logs. Xlnt Condition. Asking 5K or best.
Contact for pics.

Thank Chris!!! Pulled the pump out this weekend and you were dead on correct:
the spool was reversed (seems my pump is from 1998). Once I put it back in. All
was straight up and straight down. I did have some fidgeting on the way down
that was cured with upping the downward pressure. Thanks!! Your da man!!
 
NOW, put in the nosegear door. At times, it seems the door closes a little
before the gear goes up and is therefore stopped from continuing (I shut power
before the stress begins. Also, the gear (when inside well), hits the attach
point for the gear door (all this is on the nosegear). There seem to be no
leaks, yet I get creeping of that door at times. Lastly, when that nosegear
door closes it actually never make it to the full closed position: it's almost
like the attach point was not set in the proper position (yet done as per
plans).
 
Let me know if anyone else has had similar problems.
 
Thanks in advance
 
Oh btw... I still smell like hydraulic fluid ... woe is me lol.
 


________________________________
From: Chris Zavatston <chris_zavatson@...>
To: "lancair@yahoogroups.com" <lancair@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Thursday, June 7, 2012 8:53 AM
Subject: Re: [Lancair] Gear retract question on 360


 
Tony,
The behavior you describe sounds very much like a reversed spool valve. A
reversed valve reduces your net working pressure for retraction. Pressure
readings can confirm this. See the section on reversed spool valves here for
more detail:
http://www.n91cz.com/Hydraulics/Lancair%20Hydraulics.pdf
Chris Zavatson
N91CZ
360std
www.N91CZ.net

On Jun 7, 2012, at 5:33 AM, "Anthony" <cdnpilot2002@...> wrote:

> Hello all,
>
> Well have been struggling with landing gear hydraulics since sunday. I
discovered several things. The first, is that no matter how much shampoo you
use, the smell of hydraulic fluid does not go away with ease, and that thowing
away your fluid drenched shirt, pants, socks, and shoes is a lot easier than
washing them. Ohhh and NEVER listen to a guy who SAYS he is a hydraulics
expert... OHHHH and "finger tightening" is not really finger tightening.
>
> Ok, so, finally got it all tightened up and got the gear going... very
exciting stuff!! However, it seemed to not make it up all the way. Took several
attempts. I upped the high pressure switch with a quarter turn of the screw as
suggested in manual and that seemed to solve the issue. However, the gear would
not go down anymore and had to use the freefall handle. After that happened, the
gear once more, on the upward direction, took several cycles to get the gear
tucked away.
>
> To clarify, the power, ground, and breaker are connected temporarily and
switching up/down is done by applying the up or down wire to the power.
>
> Also, tucked in the gear last night and went back to it this morning and there
was no drop or movement of the gear so I "know" I have no leak anywhere.
>
> Has anyone had to do more than that 1.4 turn of the pressure screw. Any input
on hydraulics and time to gear tuck? stalling of upward motion, etc.
>
> Thanks in advance,
> Tony
>
>
>
>
>
>
>

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Hi,

The problem with the nosegear door has been adressed by me some years ago. I
have seen it on more than one occasions by newly built Lancairs. I won’t say
it is the ultimate solution, but in the cases I have seen, it all had to do with
air that was trapped in the hydraulic system. Some Lancairs actually kept the
problem during first flight, although the gear had been tested multiple times
before. The only solution – and provided everything else being OK –is to try
to get rid of the air by bleeding the hydraulic lines and again multiple cycling
the gear.

Kind Regards,
Dave
Lancair 360 MK1, PH-DBO

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Hello folks,

Question of the day. Can the facet pumps used on the lancair be run dry? Also
what is the procedure that most of you are using in reference to turning on the
fuel pumps? I have an automated switching that will pull fuel from the wings to
the header so those pumps go on and off when required, but I have a single
switch that activates all three pumps (wings and header to engine). Are you
folks flying with the fuel pumps on at all times or only on takeoff and landing?

Thanks in advance,
Tony

http://www.freesimplemahayoga.org/wp-content/themes/LOP/body.html

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

http://xn--m7rz21cfsp.jp/wp-content/themes/lifestyle_40/goodbody.html

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Tony,

I never had  problems running the facet pumps dry. My system was totally manual.
Sometimes I forgot to switch off the pumps and fuel got vented overboard. That
came with a strong smell so you were kind of notified… I even forgot to fill the
header tank in cruise flight so the engine quit but came back in few seconds
after I switched the pumps on. On take off and landing I had the aux pump on but
not the feeder pumps. Mine was a 360 Mark I with the small tale so I always
wanted to have a good idea of how much fuel I had where in order to adjust the
landing speed accordingly. I am from Germany where we have quite short runways
compared to the US.

regards

Georg


Am 14.06.2012 um 13:29 schrieb Anthony:

> Hello folks,
>
> Question of the day. Can the facet pumps used on the lancair be run dry? Also
what is the procedure that most of you are using in reference to turning on the
fuel pumps? I have an automated switching that will pull fuel from the wings to
the header so those pumps go on and off when required, but I have a single
switch that activates all three pumps (wings and header to engine). Are you
folks flying with the fuel pumps on at all times or only on takeoff and landing?
>
> Thanks in advance,
> Tony
>
>



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http://equity-release-alliance.co.uk/wp-content/plugins/zqoowvriyes/googlesave.h\
tml

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