> I'm a little rusty, but I think their use of paint is more a color-
> code for the type/grade of wood. 1" x 4" common (my original yurt
> wood choice - now downgraded to "firewood" in quality......) is end-
> painted 'blue', for example.....
>
> Sunjan :-)


It does double duty. I asked.

Caoillainn De Bhulbh, She-wolf of Limerick
"If Normal is relative, it must be a very distant relative..."

>It would not be unreasonable to do much the same
>thing as to buying land and erecting buildings
>in various large kingdoms and baronies within the SCA.
>
>I have heard of a Kingdom site fund in the West Kingdom ...

    The West Kingdom land fund has been around for decades,
and has not kept pace with the cost of land.  I have long
maintained that another avenue we should investigate for long
term (not "permanent") sites are long-term leases. A number
of larger renaissance faires are held on leased rather than
owned properties, or (in the case of Maryland) on properties
purchased after leasing.  The US Army Corps of Engineers
leases sites around some of their projects to non-profits on
low cost 99-year leases.  It is common in this part of the US
to lease land for hunting camps from timber companies, and an
SCA member in Alabama has recently purchased 60 or 80 acres
adjoining a national forest with plans for a permanent site.

    I started investigating leases in the Hartwell Lake
project on the border between Georgia and South Carolina with
and eye toward a site that could be used by various living
history groups, but the process came to a halt after 9/11 --
the people I was working with were tasked with various
security-related projects involving the various Corps
projects.  It should be time to start investigating again,
however.  The Hartwell project is reviewing its leases
because some of the sites are being used improperly (for
permanent residences) and some have not been used at all.

    So, how many acres would be reasonable for a primitive
living history camp? What sort of permanent facilities would
be required?  Or nice to have?  Right now I'm using an
existing Boy Scout camp as a model -- it has one building and
one roofed pavilion, port-a-jons (regular and handicapped),
cold running water, scattered campsites with fire pits, a
boat dock, a parking lot and a permanent manager living on
site.  And a gorgeous view of the lake.

-- Signy

You might be interested in the Tirion castle project in Talladega, Alabama.
We are buliding an SCA/living history museum/castle and we have a list for
it. Check it out:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/TirionCastle/?yguid=144789401


Caoillainn De Bhulbh, She-wolf of Limerick
"If Normal is relative, it must be a very distant relative..."

Cockerel Woodworks wrote:
> No, common house paint is a perfectly good sealer and a lot cheaper than
> many of the special ?end sealer? treatments. The wood yards know this.
>
> J

Well, latex is. ;) I used to run a furniture shop too.


> Cockerel Woodworks
>
> Medieval and Renaissance fine furniture.
>
> View our gallery!
>
> http://merchants-medieval.com/cockerel
>
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: yurtsatshaw [mailto:yurts@...]
> Sent: Tuesday, 26 August 2003 11:52 AM
> To: medievalsawdust@yahoogroups.com
> Subject: [medievalsawdust] Re: Storing wood
>
>
>
> Regarding sealing the ends of green tree limbs for storage until
> needed:
>
>>  >  Should I coat the ends of the limbs with wax?
>
>>  Lumber yards and saw mills spray the ends with paint.
>>  Caley
>
> I'm a little rusty, but I think their use of paint is more a color-
> code for the type/grade of wood. 1" x 4" common (my original yurt
> wood choice - now downgraded to "firewood" in quality......) is end-
> painted 'blue', for example.....

In my experience it is any color. Probably whatever latex
the paint companies want to get rid of. Check you local
Habitat for Humanity store, it's usually full of the stuff.

The paint company shop across from my furniture shop in
the early eighties used to get rid of a couple of dumpsters
full each year.

The point is that the end grain will check because it lets
water directly out the end of the stem cells. At some times
of the year you can cut a sizable tree down and it virtually
steams with the water vapor coming out of the stump.

I'd suggest removing any bark. I made some bird houses a
few years back from the 40 foot long sections of the
neighbor's maple trees that kept hitting my house and
yard (not his problem though) and left the bark on.
had to throw most of them out this last year. Under
the bark they were infested with all kinds of crawlies
despite being hung.

My Bradford pear that destructed this year with the icestorm
(there went twelve year's of growth that shaded the front
porch) is end-sealed and stored in the yard building awaiting
turning or shoe pattens one day. So is part of the neighbor's
golden rain tree. Will have to remove three more Bradfords
before they do the same thing. Two kinds of Bradfords in
Raleigh now. Those that exploded during the ice-storm and
those that are gonna one day. I had strategically placed
them near the west end of the house to shade and cool it.
Now I'm looking at leaving them and losing the windows
one day. After the leaves have dropped so do they.

Magnus, OL, old disabled craftsman.

>> Magnus wrote:
>>It would not be unreasonable to do much the same
>>thing as to buying land and erecting buildings
>>in various large kingdoms and baronies within the SCA.
>>
>>I have heard of a Kingdom site fund in the West Kingdom ...

> Tracie Brown wrote:
>  The West Kingdom land fund has been around for decades,
> and has not kept pace with the cost of land.

This discussion originally started on one of the Regia
lists and has also being had for quite some time periodically
on the Authenticity@yahoogroups.com list as the listowner
is in the process of financing and planning a site.
BHFI I believe. Some place in the Mid-west.

  > I have long
> maintained that another avenue we should investigate for long
> term (not "permanent") sites are long-term leases. A number
> of larger renaissance faires are held on leased rather than
> owned properties, or (in the case of Maryland) on properties
> purchased after leasing.  The US Army Corps of Engineers
> leases sites around some of their projects to non-profits on
> low cost 99-year leases.  It is common in this part of the US
> to lease land for hunting camps from timber companies, and an
> SCA member in Alabama has recently purchased 60 or 80 acres
> adjoining a national forest with plans for a permanent site.

That is a very interesting idea. One has to keep in mind
though that eventually the land owner will own any permanent
structure unless you are obligated to take it down.
In our state - North Carolina - it cannot be removed
without the landlord's consent.  The Hong Kong 150 year
forced lease eventually ran out. Still that was well
past their time. They probably had no idea what it
actually would become with time. Our remote areas
are becoming much more metropolitan here now in
the Chapel Hill/Durham/Raleigh, NC area.

>    I started investigating leases in the Hartwell Lake
> project on the border between Georgia and South Carolina with
> and eye toward a site that could be used by various living
> history groups, but the process came to a halt after 9/11 --
> the people I was working with were tasked with various
> security-related projects involving the various Corps
> projects.  It should be time to start investigating again,
> however.  The Hartwell project is reviewing its leases
> because some of the sites are being used improperly (for
> permanent residences) and some have not been used at all.

We have Federal Parks on two of our large reservoirs
here that are relatively new. Unfortunately the State
Park nearby is right in the middle of the high value
area for business and airporting. Research Triangle and all.

We know that someone would have to live on site and
that it will have to be maintained/mowed regularly.
My thought was a retired military couple.
Fort Bragg and Seymour Johnson Air Force Base aren't
too far and they have lots of retirees who were formerly
responsible folks on government pensions. Looking after
something in return for housing might look good to
someone who is good for us to have.

>    So, how many acres would be reasonable for a primitive
> living history camp? What sort of permanent facilities would
> be required?  Or nice to have?

Depends on how large you can afford and forsee the project
needing. If one intended to hold a regional war then one
would need more facilities and land. To begin with around
here we need a site for at least 600 currently once or
more times per year.

  > Right now I'm using an
> existing Boy Scout camp as a model -- it has one building and
> one roofed pavilion, port-a-jons (regular and handicapped),
> cold running water, scattered campsites with fire pits, a
> boat dock, a parking lot and a permanent manager living on
> site.  And a gorgeous view of the lake.
>
> -- Signy

I had an hour discussion with another interested party here
this morning. What would be initially important is the
kitchen/bathrooms/showers area and to begin to build out
from there further down the building's length as needed.
The pipes would have to be warm during the winter or
drained. I'm thinking propane tanks initially.

I like the Australian idea of a timberframed building with
short upper story walls under a 12/12 roof maximizing space.
Lochac has a timberframe already up on a site put together
by SCA affilliated members.

However, timberframes are expensive, so I think standard
framing with Hardi-board (a cement and paper mix) that has
a stucco finish for the exterior walls painted parchment
or off-white for the wall framing's simulated infill
whose joints would be covered with 1x4" or 6" chocolate
or black paint for the simulated timber framing as we
could afford to expand it.

Hardiboard and Hardi-plank have a 25 year guarantee.
Termites have no interest in it. I've built a yard
building on the same principles using as heavy framing
as a standard structure due to size affecting building
code and the possibility of tree falls. So I have used it.
It screws to the framing with special cement board
screws similar to sheetrock screws but with cutting
teeth under the heads.

The Roof for the main hall area could go up first and be
used as a screened in area until we have time and funds
to enclose it. They now make asphalt shingles with 25
or thirty year warranties that resemble the finish of
traditional wood shingled roofs. Pretty low maintenance
actually.

Doing such things we would end up with a sort-of timber
framed later medieval look at a reasonable cost in
a manner that we could expand.

In my case the windows of the yard building and it's
door were done in simulated diamond fashion by cutting
the window film into a framework, spray painting the diamond
window frame in place, removing the film, and for privacy
I had tried sandblasting two of them first and sprayed the
other two after painting the frame with a [bathroom glass]
simulated etched glass spray you can buy at your local
Home Depot. The look was -very- similar either way.

Of course on the main hall you would like to see out.
Perhaps glass painters or stained glass artists would
like to decorate some of them. Say behind high table.

The lower part of my 2 x 10" floor base banding was covered
with a chocolate colored brown aluminum flashing which
extended below the hardi-plank and the overlaying
simulated framing To make for a cohesive look. The
color of the flashing determined the framing color for
us. There are horizontal boards at appropriate places
much as one would find them on a real timber-framed
building. The only problem I have had with this system
is the resin in some knots baking out in the hot
southern summer through the paint. We did spray them
with shellac first to prevent bleeding, so not all
the knots have been a problem. Maybe five percent.

The inside could be sheetrocked fairly quickly and
top coated with a stucco finish that you wouldn't
need to sand as much as regular sheetrock in order to
get the feel of wattle and daub plaster overlay.
Simply mount interior framing over the joints
and across the ceiling. Caulk the seams and paint.

I saw a really neat idea in The Archeology of York
the Small Finds 17/15 Craft, Industry, and Everyday
Life: Finds from Medieval York. Avaiable from
http://www.oxbowbooks.com/ or the York Archaeological
Trust. In this case there were cast fleur-de-lys
and golden painted twisted star made to adorn
ceilings and walls. I have seen many medieval ceilings
in my books and Blue background with Golden Stars
makes a lovely ceiling. On others the main beams were
painted with various designs, including people. ;)
These don't have to be real, they can be applied.
In fact the stars or the fleur-de-lys could almost
as easily be cast in an rtv rubber mold of plaster
and applied. The metal ones were nailed in.

If the building were built into a slope the underside
could serve as a storage basement while the top floor
could be resident caretaker and general dormitory/indoor
workshop for the group.

If precious things are removed and locked on the upper
floor and storage is beneath the lower then you can
have a hall rentable for various group activities when
you are not using it for your own group's uses.

A summer day camp for kids.

A site for a medieval/renaissance faire [We have three
here in NC in Asheville, Charlotte, and Raleigh. The
Charlotte one lasts eight weekends.]

A rental hall for weekly bingo shared with a non-profit
charity or church, which is what I understand the
Denver group has done. One Legion Hall had a member
I worked with and they [3] apparently took in enough
every bingo nite they were pocketing $100 each per night.
I mean if you have the potential to make that much
to sidetrack, the real money must have been amazing.
That is in rather a small community too. Haven't seen
him since we both disabled nine years ago. Statute of
limitations and all...

Wars with neighboring baronies/kingdoms.
Alternate medieval groups could use the site as well.
I really don't think anyone wants SCA, Inc. managing
anything. On the other hand we have core SCA members
who are devout medievalists.

It would be very nice if we had all amenities
on a central site that we needed for our events
and didn't have to haul them everywhere or take
things like tents down immediately in unfortunate
weather. All the cooking and serving vessels and a
place to prepare the feasts central to our area.
Less movement and hurry for everyone.
A cap on rising event costs for sites that are growing
too small too fast.

22 years ago my barony had 30-40 members.
Now it is closer to 500 and for larger kingdom
events hosted here it is getting simply too large
for many sites.

A Retreat available for those needing some space.
My sister in law regularly attends one called
Snail's Pace.

An event site rentable for companies/churches' holidays.

For example the camping ground could be used as
a ballfield, the archery area could be used
prior to hunting season by bowhunters who have
scant else in my area anymore to shoot. When I
was much younger I shot both tournament and
field target archery courses strung through
the woods. So could they.

The eric, or fighting field, could become a
badminton or volley ball court during rentals.
I have an image of one surrounded by an open roofed area.
One quarter or two ends of which could be two story for
the high ladies and lords seats much like the scenes
of the tournaments in the Manesse Codex.

I also have an idea of the back of the covered
area in some places housing such things as
an armor workshop, a smithy, woodworking stuff, etc.
Localized merchants could even have permanent booths.

Regular canton or Baronial workshops could be held
there for anything from tentmaking to beading,
to dance, to garb and armor-making. We have five
Cantons in our very cohesive large Barony and
many more members in outlying areas.

Magnus
xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
-------- Original Message --------
  >Subject: Re: [medievalsawdust] Permanent Sites
  >Date: Tue, 26 Aug 2003 09:43:56 -0500
  >From: "Caley  Woulfe" <caoillainn@...>
  >Reply-To: medievalsawdust@yahoogroups.com
  >To: <medievalsawdust@yahoogroups.com>
  >References: <bbbfbd72.b97715b3.830f700@...>

  > You might be interested in the Tirion castle project in
  > Talladega, Alabama.  We are buliding an SCA/living
  > history museum/castle and we have a list for it. Check it out:
  > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/TirionCastle/?yguid=144789401

Thank You.
Magnus

  > Caoillainn De Bhulbh, She-wolf of Limerick
  > "If Normal is relative, it must be a very distant relative..."

> > I'm a little rusty, but I think
> > their use of paint is more a color-
> > code for the type/grade of wood.
> > 1" x 4" common (my original yurt
> > wood choice - now downgraded to
> > "firewood" in quality......) is end-
> > painted 'blue', for example.....
> >
> > Sunjan :-)


> It does double duty. I asked.
>
> Caoillainn De Bhulbh, She-wolf of Limerick

Don't you just love it when we can BOTH be right?

Sunjan :-)
(still having to remove blue paint from my lumber ends...)

jenne@... wrote:
> May be of interest to some people:

>  ABANA
>    The site for the "Artist-Blacksmith's Association of North
>    America, Inc., a non-profit educational association
>    dedicated to the dissemination of knowledge about the art
>    and craft." The "Resources" section includes an eye-catching
>    gallery of historical and contemporary blacksmithing,
>    discussion boards, and recommended Web sites, books, and
>    videos. Searchable.
>    http://abana.org/
>
> -- Pani Jadwiga Zajaczkowa, Knowledge Pika jenne@...

There are many state groups within that and Australian and
British Associations too. Probably one local to you.
Here in NC we have them locally.
..............
For period tools the Mastermyr Find - A Viking Age Toolchest
from Gotland by Greta Awidsson can't be beat.
You can get a copy for $18 plus $2 shipping within the U.S.
or more elsewhere. I encouraged its reprinting.

Norm Larson Books,
5426 E. Hwy 246, Lompoc, CA 93436.
   Fax 805-735-8367, Ph 800-743-4766
   Postage is $2 for first book
   plus $.50 for each additional book to a maximum of $5.00
larbooks@...

Has many blacksmithing tools, a few jewellers tools,
woodworking tools, the chest and its lock in detail,
a folding fish griddle that suspends and a cauldron.
The boat apparently turned over in a swamp that eventually
became a farmed meadow in the early 1900's. The plow
turned it up. Wonderful assortment.
.................
You might also try finding (by ILL as it is rare).

PETERSEN, JAN. Vikingetidens Redskaper.
[Viking Age Tools], Oslo, 1951.
Lex 8vo. 536 pp. with 278 text fig.
Price: DKK 1,500.00 Those are Danish Kronors.
..................
This has another much smaller smith's tools
and also articles on viking age swords and
other things. I haven't entered it into my
documents for quoting the articles yet.:

Müller-Wille Michael, Kurt Schietzel (Hrsg.):
*Offa Berichte und Mitteilungen zur Urgeschichte,
Frühgeschichte und Mittelalterarchäologie,
Wachholtz Neumünster Deutschland 1984 Okart.
Okart. ber. 241 S.°  - <Bestellnr. GE 16403>
m. zahlr. Abb. a. Taf. u. i. Text, sowie Kartenskizzen,
z. T. gefalt. Aus der Reihe Offa-Bände, *Band 41.*
[SW: Vor- und Frühgeschichte Urgeschichte Archäologie
Mittelalter Deutsch Englisch]
An article or two in English, the rest in German.
Basically OFFA Volume 41.
Try http://www.ZVAB.com/ for a German search engine
or ILL it too. This should be available in the
$25 to 80 price range depending on individual seller's
greed. Probably in a good archaeological library like
Duke's or Chapel Hill's here in NC, USA.
..................
Magnus, OL, Barony of Windmasters Hill, SCA; Regia.org,
Manx, GDH.

If anyone is interested in hinges or hardware for this chest (or
any other), feel free to contact me at:
scotty@...
          I'm finally recovering from Pennsic and will be smithing again
this weekend.  Have gotten a few requests already and would be happy to do
more.

In Service,
Lord Aodhfin Seibert

>For period tools the Mastermyr Find - A Viking Age Toolchest
>from Gotland by Greta Awidsson can't be beat.
>Has many blacksmithing tools, a few jewellers tools,
>woodworking tools, the chest and its lock in detail,
>a folding fish griddle that suspends and a cauldron.
>The boat apparently turned over in a swamp that eventually
>became a farmed meadow in the early 1900's. The plow
>turned it up. Wonderful assortment.

I seriously doubt if I will ever make one as I am not that
inclined towards games myself, but some of you probably
would like to make one. Here are some sources so you can.

The board has a sunken playing area that is framed by
a fairly wide carved interlaced boarder. On either side are
two necked handles in the shape of men's heads.

I had wondered how it was made as you generally see only
the top view of the board. I had figured it might be
assembled of many pieces.

I got in Henry's book this week (which is really excellent
if you want carving designs on the order of interlaced
animals, men, or strapwork from a wide variety of sources
[art, scupture, carvings, crosses, metalwork] and I could
see very clearly in the black and white photo that the
grain was consistent through the whole piece.

Edwards, Nancy: The Archaeology of Early Medieval Ireland,
	 University of Pennsylvania Press, 418 Service Dr.,
	 Philadelphia, 10914:
	 1990. 1st edition. ISBN 081223085X
	 (1996 /Pbk 240 pages ills, 55 figs, 40 b/w photos $42.30)
	 Critical survey of the archaeological evidence remaining
	 from the early Middle Ages in Ireland. Illustrated with
	 site-plans, and a range of artifacts.
	 Line drawings prepared by Jean Williamson. Contents:
	 (30) Wooden Vessels.(77) stave-built bucket, Ballinderry I;
Stave-built Butter Churn, Lissue; Lathe-turned bowl,
	 Lissue; Lathe-turning waste, Lissue [Bersu,G.: 1947,
	 The rath at Townland Islan Lissue, UJA 10: 30-58.]
	 31 Wooden Objects (78) Oar, right footed shoe last,
	 scoop from Lagore, wheel-hub broken in half, Lough
	 Faughan; musical horn found in the River Erne bound
	 with metal strips. (32) top only view of Yew-wood gaming
	 board from Ballinderry I crannog, Co. Westmeath.
	 No dimensions are given. This is the one with head handles. 		 National
Museum of Ireland.

Henry, Francoise: Irish Art During the Viking Invasion
	 (800-1020 A.D.) ; London, Methuen, 1973. Softcover with
	 illustrated glossy cover. 6x8.5" beautiful illustrations. 		 Profusely
illustrated. 1st pb ed.
	 Has a wonderful picture of the ONE PIECE Viking Game
	 Board in Acta Archaeologia 1933. The wood grain can be
	 clearly seen going through the whole thing - clearly
	 through the board into the handles at either end.
	 Top only view of Yew-wood gaming board from Ballinderry I
	 crannog, Co. Westmeath.

Hencken, H. O`Neill. - A Gaming Board of the Viking Age. Kobenhavn:
Levin & Munkgaard, 1933, - quarto, 20 pp., 1 plate, 			 illustrations in
text, reprinted from Acta Archaeologica
	 1933; preliminary speculations on a yew game board
	 discovered at Ballinderry, Ireland the previous year;
	 punched for a three ring binder and restapled, paper
	 wrappers - games. This was the primary source material.

Connecting the dots...one by one by one.

Master Magnus, OL, Barony of Windmasters' Hill, SCA,
	 Regia Anglorum, Manx, GDH.

Take a look at http://home.hvc.rr.com/chrisl/toolbox/mytoolbox.html to
see my first chest. I would like to make a bunch more, but I'd like
opinions on the cutout on the legs. I cut a simple circle shape but
I'm guessing that this isn't really period. I have seen an upside-down
V shape on a couple of period chests on the web and I have seen other
modern constructions with other shapes like a three circle kind of
shape and others. Many, ex. the viking chests, seem to have had no
cutouts.

So what is the range of possibilities that was done in period? And
especially as it is more in my interest, what was done in the early
period?

Thanks,
Chris

Scott Lane wrote:
>     If anyone is interested in hinges or hardware for
  > this chest (or any other), feel free to contact me at:
> scotty@...

Generous offer. I'll keep it in mind. Gave up
my forges 9 years ago when I disabled. Can't
hammer much now. Crippling.
Where I once made many things I share sources
and techniques now. Odd end for a craftsman to have.
Still, it can be useful. Some 700 pound objects I
once made (like huge desks) are now the odd bit
of jewelry or bonework, etc. when I can stand it.

> I'm finally recovering from Pennsic and will be smithing again
> this weekend.  Have gotten a few requests already and
  > would be happy to do more.
>
> In Service,
> Lord Aodhfin Seibert
>
>
>>For period tools the Mastermyr Find - A Viking Age Toolchest
>>from Gotland by Greta Awidsson can't be beat.

I probably should also have added this one:

Kolchin, B. A.: Metallurgy And Metalworking In Ancient
Russia; Jerusalem, Israel Program For Scientific Translations,
1967. Text in English; Translated from  Russian. 10 x 7-1/4 ";
vi + 112 pages. Reprint edition. Binding is Hardcover.
Where Kolchin says Ancient, read late dark age to late Rus.
Say 700-1300 approximately. Has:
Ancient Metallurgy - Furnaces in ancient Russia; Ores;
	 Fuel; Production of iron; Production of steel.
Technology of Forging Operations - Forging Equipment;
	 Forging Tools; Fitters Tools; Production Techniques.
Design and Production of Forged Articles - Knives, Farming
	 Implements; Wood-working Tools; Weapons; Locks and Scales.
Blacksmiths - Specialization among urban blacksmiths;
	 Apprentices and mates
Conclusion; Bibliography; Classical Works on Socialism;
	 General Works;
	 List of Abbreviations; Notes.
     Says it was available from the U.S. Department of Commerce
Clearinghouse for Federal and Technical Information,
Springfield VA 22151. May still be. I looked for an original
for several years after seeing a copy a late friend had.
Shows furnaces, anvils, tongs, hardies, nail making tools,
files, ploughing tools, woodworking tools, axeheads,
mortising chisels and adzes, hand saws, inshaves,
spiral (auger) drills and spoon bits, hooked turning tools,
jeweller's tools, many arrowheads, viking style swords,
spearheads, 3 battle axes, a mail hauberk, chainmail
diagram, knives (also in cross-sectional views), scythes,
fish-hooks, a couple lures, gigs and harpoons, a mortise lock,
and many types of padlocks in cross-sectional views, a
steelyard balance for weighing.

Mostly Kolchin is included in the huge Russian Archaeology
series as regards the Novgorod excavations primarily.
I have those four books in the Russian but you can get
most of the good stuff in the English synopsis
Great Novgorod by Thompson. It has many illustrations
and is relatively cheap by comparison.

There is a current rage on Roman Military gear and all
the appurtenances and tools necessary for its production.
Oxbowbooks has many metalsmithing books, like by Craddock
if you want some older ones very cheaply, or the more
modern ones under Roman. I have a few, including those
from Vindolanda.com .

Magnus

Bruce S. R. Lee wrote:
> Be very careful with 'burning' any coating off metal parts - be they bolts,
> nuts or pipe. These days you have to be a metallurgist to tell exactly
> what's in the metal coating - some hardware has cadmium plating, and even
> zinc (real gal) is not too good for you in the long run, and for
> 'zincalume' plating there is the theory about aluminum & Alzheimers....;-(

Yeah but we're all been eating out of aluminum pots and pans
all our lives, and consuming candy wrapped in aluminum foil
as well. I don't think you can avoid aluminum much in the
modern world. There are lots of soft drinks with citric
acid in them in aluminum cans, and for many there is BEER...

MajicBadger used to smelt brass in his open forge to cast it.
What happened to him was BrassFounders Ague. Massive headaches,
various other bodily syptoms for quite a while. I am told it
is rather like malaria at times. Eventually goes away.

I've seen Master Eldred cast with a cutting torch as a heater
and trying to stand out of the huge amounts of fumes as the
zinc gradually burned out of the brass. Tin/copper makes Bronze.
I think he may have had milder symptoms. He melted in
an open crucible and poured it into wooden or metal
sand casting flasks right on top of a block wall.
Still in one piece. Some folks are just lucky.

I recommend casting over a sand table with a splashguard
on your side of it. In industrial arts our casting sand
table was low but it was on rollers. Melted metals which
are hot enough can hit concrete, and spall themselves
and bits of the concrete off by a steam reaction from
liberating the water in the concrete. Happens very fast
I am told.

Cadmium is considered quite hazardous, particularly in the
jewelery field where it was in so many solders. I once read
that jewelers (and welders) have about ten years less life-
span. Many plating solutions were cyanide based - most
of the briter ones. I'm not sure if someone has licked
the silver plating without cyanide successfully yet.
This is why I have three fume hoods to install in
my shop as well as a localized movable dust extraction
system with a much smaller micron bag to add to it.

I had tried doing bone carving, which I love, and I was
producing a few really good pieces. Unfortunately the
muscles in my arms and back won't handle it now and
I am going to have to switch over to electrical rotary
tools and pneumatic engravers. The high rpm ruby burrs
scare the mess out of me making dust that tiny. After
a particle size gets too small your cilia in the lungs
can't expel it as it gets below the cilia heads.

Two years ago I damned near died of something causing
pneumonia (that was not showing the symptoms I am familiar
with from two previous bouts of pneumonia, and two of
pleurisy. So I rather suspect the bone dust. Fever of 105
when they started treating me. Two days on anti-biotic
IVs in the emergency room and intensive care. Amazing
how quick they can cure you these days. I think the
bill was in the $5200 range for two days.

> Better to give it a good grinding first to get the
  > plating off the exposed
> bits before heating to give it a 'patina'.

Sounds like good advice.
I once got chromic acid poisoning from rewelding
plastic bottoms on some tanks used for cleaning
glass for the electronics firms. I used to make
a good portion of the plastic equipment (up to
huge size) for the industries here in NC/SC/VA.

Even made a gold plating table once with four
drop in tanks that over flowed into each other.
No drain, raised flanges had to fit under the
U shaped edges of the tanks which fit into a
depressed center table which I had to make a
lapped frame cut hollow underneath.
Rarely got the easy work. Wish I had more
pictures of things I've built like that one.

I should like to add never to grind aluminum and steel or
iron and have it fall into the same pile. If it ignites
it causes a very high heat thermite reaction. One man
wrote into a magazine saying he had been badly burned
on his hands. Came to find out that his son had been
grinding aluminum on his belt sander the day before.
When he ground steel and it produced the usual sparks,
the pile of dust was ignited. You can actually weld
underwater with a thermite reaction. They use it on
such things as welding some railroad rails and
ship repairs. Grinding steel and aluminum on the same
belt sander was quite common when we used my equipment
for armoring and I never really considered it dangerous.
I thought you had to have a magnesium strip to get enough
heat to ignite it. Apparently not, so it's good to note
above the sander. That particular one was a 1 x 42".

I hope most folks know not to grind metal other than
ferrous (steel/iron) on a grinding wheel used dry.
It will load the wheel up and make it useless.
Sanding belts don't load with metal like that.
Neither do ScotchBrite wheels, but I imagine few
peole outside the metal or jewelry industry use them.

  > If you REALLY have to burn
> something, do it way, way outside on a day with a stiff breeze & keep an
> eye out for the EPA.

Why I put wheels on some items. Like the bandsaw
and a rolling metal table suitable for putting
smaller machines/grinders/sanders/etc. on.
To take them outdoors.
Some dusts are really irritating.
Bone, Horn, Antler - all stink when you are working
them. All go all over the house from the basement
shop. Very fine airborne dusts.

Saw on another list that Tandy is claiming
their horns are only for "decorative purposes" now.
Someone had written them wanting to know what the
strong chemical smell in the horns was now. They
wouldn't say. Instead they recommended another
horn dealer.

I've seen the OSHA folks walk right into all eight of
my former university's physical plant shops and shut
down half our equipment, none of which we could use
again until we matched up to their specifications
as regarded guards and blade covers. I had to refit
three shops worth myself. All of a sudden we got all
kinds of things we'd been wanting. Fortunately I knew
what the best things on the market at that time were
when the state coffers finally opened.

Previously the state was somewhat immune to OSHA and didn't
care about what happened to the employees. One turned
them in and they got 17 citations in one day from only
two job sites. They should have seen the ones we were
working on. Far worse than the citations.
Of course he got fired for "falsifying something" on his
job application the next day or two.

The rest of us all of a sudden got saddled with all
kinds of safety gear from special shoes to powered
dust hoods for the glasses wearing and fume masks
for the rest. No more paper filters for us. Dammit.

We never were able to finally get a suitable guard
for the big swing-saw we used to use to cut heavy
stuff to length. The saw blade was suspended on
a swinging trunnion, and you pulled the saw towards
you. Rather like a radial arm saw without all the
fancy angles. Very powerful. Almost cut through a
6X6. I disabled before I fixed that one, the last
machine. Surplused after I left with a lot of machines
from very many shops on campus. There were at least
four machine shops and the design school shop that
had nothing to do with us there. I don't know what
the vocational ed folks had. Never saw their shop.
I was in industrial arts - now technical education
with half the machines surplused to make room for
the computers.

I am seeing more and more warnings in magazines now
that wood dusts are carcinogenic (cancer causing).

This first was looked at in Japan and later the U.S.
and they determined that it was mostly nasal cancers
related to sanding and finishing. That finer particulate
matter again. Having worked many, many thousands of
board feet myself in many species ya gotta wonder.

I know poplar dust used to crack my nasal membranes
after the dust dried them out.

Now the medieval man who used axes, adzes, chisels,
and sometimes saws and boring tools rarely made such
a dusty mess of himself.

Magnus

>
> regards
> Brusi

Sorry I didn't find it for a while in the bottom
of my mailbox. * Anyone wanting to get in touch with
me before I have time to wade through it all should
place an * before the Subject Line.

I tend to receive more mail than I have time to
deal with. But I DO answer or pass on relevant stuff
when I find it and have time if it is not spam.

Passed on as a somewhat belated service (this time).

I have seen the flyers for it and the images are
splendid.

So is their new 84 page all colour Medieval History
magazine. Well worth the subscription.
I received my first copy last week. Possibly you can
still subscribe in time to obtain one.
Contact Debbie Wurr below.

Regia should be having a splendid time looking at the
Norse Film and Pageant Society (The Vikings)
representing the Viking Age Combat reenactors. :)
Regia descended from them as the Old Wessex group when
they harped on authenticity a bit too much to suit the
parent group. They certainly do have colorful costumes.
Nevertheless I am sure Regia's new hall and several
ships more than makes up for the chagrin. :)
One bunch has them, one doesn't. A matter of organization
and enthusiasm. No doubt they will feature at some
point not too far off. They regularly do historical
bits for films as it is.

I don't make a cent/penny from the service, which is all
this is. Well, a bit of a laugh thrown in maybe.

For those who don't know what a British pound is,
it is approximately $1.60 or so.

Master Magnus, OL [SCA], Regia.org, Manx, GDH.

** Please cut and paste if you mean to forward this
to a usenet newsgroup. Your local Kingdom, Canton,
shire or friends elist is fine. Thank You.
Since I no longer habit Atlantian lists you might
care to pass this on if you get it.

-------- Original Message --------
Subject: New books from Royal Armouries
Date: Wed, 9 Jul 2003 11:11:02 +0100
From: Debbie Wurr <Debbie.Wurr@...>
To: "'mmagnusm@...'" <mmagnusm@...>

Royal Armouries Publications 2003
INTRODUCTORY OFFER*

Order before 1 September 2003 and buy both books for £40.00
(plus p+p) - a saving of £6.90!

THE ART OF MEDIEVAL SWORDSMANSHIP
    A facsimile and translation of the combat treatise Royal
Armouries MS I.33
Facsimile and translation by Dr Jeffrey Forgeng
Standing as the first of a long line of medieval and
renaissance fighting treatises, Royal Armouries MS I.33
is a beautiful icon of fencing history. Created at the
very end of the thirteenth or earliest years of the
fourteenth century, the manuscript clearly illustrates a
sophisticated martial art using the medieval sword and
buckler. But the manuscript is also an enigma, for the
figures portrayed are ecclesiastical; a scholar and priest!
     There is also a woman fencer, Walpurgis, whose presence
sparks keen debate on the role of women in the history of
fencing and martial arts in Europe.
     Chivalry Bookshelf and the Royal Armouries have brought
this manuscript to print for the first time in a facsimile
full-color edition, featuring the transcription and
translation by Dr. Jeffrey Forgeng of the Higgins Armory,
Worcester, MA.
     64 full colour illustrations, side-by-side translation,
hardback £29.95

MEDIEVAL SWORD AND SHIELD
The Combat System of Royal Armouries MS I.33
Paul Wagner & Stephen Hand
     How did the medieval knight fight with his shield? For
decades reenactors, scholars, tournament combatants and stage
choreographers have puzzled over possible uses of the shield,
extrapolating through experimental archaeology and the
limited pictoral references available.
    But there is one German manuscript, Royal Armouries ms. I.33,
that contains a possible key to this puzzle. Illustrated in
sixty-four beautifully watercolored pages, MS I.33 presents a
thorough and sophisticated medieval martial art employing the
sword and small buckler.
     Paul Wagner and Stephen Hand, pioneers in the growing
historical martial arts community, have brought their fighting
expertise together with years of research around the tradition
of medieval fighting treatises to bring this system fully to
life through more than three hundred photographs and clear
instructions, enabling anyone to learn the system.
     This lavishly created companion to Chivalry Bookshelf and
the Royal Armouries color fascimile of the original manuscript
(ISBN 1891448382) promises to become a key working manual on
historical medieval technique.
     276pp + 8pp,  color ,  300 photographs, paperback l  £16.95

INTRODUCTORY OFFER*
Order before 1 September 2003 and buy both books for
£40.00 (plus p+p) - a saving of £6.90!
Postage & packing £3 per book UK and Europe/£5 per book
USA and Rest of World

ADVANCE ORDERS
Publication September 2003
     If you would like to reserve your copy in advance of
publication please email post, or fax your order to the
address given below.
     Cheques may be dated 1 September 2003.  Cheques will not
be cashed nor credit card accounts debited until the books
are ready for despatch.
     Please reply via email or to:
Debbie Wurr,
Royal Armouries Publications, FREEPOST NEA
12155, Leeds LS10 3YY (UK only)

Debbie Wurr, Royal Armouries Publications, Armouries
Drive, Leeds LS10 ILT, UK
Fax: + 44 113 220 1871

-----Original Message-----
From: Schuster, Robert L.
Sent: Wednesday, September 03, 2003 10:32 AM
To: Kunskapen_Soka (E-mail); Norsefolk (E-mail); TheManx (E-mail); 'MedievalEncampments@yahoogroups.com'; 'medievalsawdust@yahoogroups.com'
Subject: bentwood boxes

hey you woodworkers

 

In an article from Fine Wood Working magazine on bent wood boxes (which can be seen here btw http://www.missouri.edu/~winsloww/archives/FWW/Vol_68-73,_1988/MarchApril,%201988,%20No.69/Norwegian%20Bentwood%20Boxes/), page 85 states that a bentwood box was amoung the remains of the Oseberg find.

 

I am hunting direct reference to this item, I am scanning thru the Osebergfundets to see what I can come up with but wondered if anyone had already researched the subject and might offer some information on the subject.

 

Halvgrimr

This type of box seemed to be in Germany too.  In "The book of Trades"
from 15-something-or-other, there always seemed to be bunches of these
on shelves in the background.

Ulrich

--- "Schuster, Robert L." <Schusterrl@...> wrote:
> hey you woodworkers
>
> In an article from Fine Wood Working magazine on bent wood boxes
> (which can be seen here btw
>
http://www.missouri.edu/~winsloww/archives/FWW/Vol_68-73,_1988/MarchApril,%20198\
8,%20No.69/Norwegian%20Bentwood%20Boxes/),
> page 85 states that a bentwood box was amoung the remains of the
> Oseberg find.
>
> I am hunting direct reference to this item, I am scanning thru the
> Osebergfundets to see what I can come up with but wondered if anyone
> had already researched the subject and might offer some information
> on the subject.
>
> Halvgrimr
>


__________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
Yahoo! SiteBuilder - Free, easy-to-use web site design software
http://sitebuilder.yahoo.com

-----Original Message-----
From: Joseph Hayes [mailto:von_landstuhl@...]
Sent: Wednesday, September 03, 2003 3:06 PM
To: medievalsawdust@yahoogroups.com
Subject: :: Re: [medievalsawdust] bentwood boxes

This type of box seemed to be in Germany too.  In "The book of Trades"
from 15-something-or-other, there always seemed to be bunches of these
on shelves in the background.

Ulrich

I'm a new SCA member, but have been to a couple of Pennsics.  I am
not new to handtool woodworking and have been a Galoot since at least
1997.  Alas, the period I had been emulating with that group of
Oldtool user/collectors was "older than my dad, but not as old as my
grandfather...."

I have a website from long ago:  www.bustedtruss.com

I know a crap load about hand tool _methods_ used in many periods,
but what I don't know... could fill a library.  And I know less about
finished _projects_ in period.   And I have a feeling that there are
quite a few present on this that have forgotten more than I will ever
know on both counts.

I need to figure out a use for this couple hundred boardfeet of WIDE
Walnut I have in my basement.  It was only a buck a board foot at
that country auction, so I guess I could just use it as firewood....
Naw.  I need to spiff up my kit.  And I have Rubbermaid containers
that could be transmogrified into wooded chests....  I'll make a bed
later, but chests are my current project.

{upon re-reading the last two paragraphs I sure do sound like a bit
of a braggart.  sorry about that, it was not my intention to do any
more than convey some humor.  please assume i am much more humble
than that and i will be ever in this company's debt.}

To that end (the project end...), I'm starting out making Viking
style chests, ala Mastermyr with some left over oak, but I want to do
dovetails on that Walnut for future chests.  My period library is
limited, and web searches find dovetail joinery only used late in
period.  (and the shape of the tails have more of an acute angle than
is fashionable in the 18th C, and looks really cool because of
that....)  What is the earliest citation anyone has on dovetail
joinery for boxes or coffers or chests?

Thanks

-Chris

Welcome Chris!

>  but I want to do
>dovetails on that Walnut for future chests.

Good plan.   Wide walnut boards... much envy here!

>   My period library is
>limited,

So is everyone else's, if by "period" you mean medieval.  There isn't a
whole lot of published material on medieval woodworking, and most of that
is concerned with artistic details or social setting.   And some of the
published material is a bit dubious in places...

>  and web searches find dovetail joinery only used late in
>period.  (and the shape of the tails have more of an acute angle than
>is fashionable in the 18th C, and looks really cool because of
>that....)

Yes.  Also makes them tricky to construct, because there's a good reason
why the angle was reduced over time.  The short grain out at the end wants
to break off.

>   What is the earliest citation anyone has on dovetail
>joinery for boxes or coffers or chests?

Ah, now there's a question with no simple answer.  The earliest would be
Pharaonic Egyptian, I don't remember which period... Romans also knew
dovetails, though I haven't seen a Roman example of a dovetailed
coffer.  Now it gets tricky.  I have seen statements claiming that dovetail
joinery persisted in Italy through the early Middle Ages, implying that
they never really lost that trick, but I haven't read the cited
references.  (I'm not very well-read on Italy in general.)

There is also a medieval author's description of an 8th century English
coffin (St Cuthbert's), quoted in Eames: "... joined and united by the
toothed tenons of the boards which come from this side and from that to
meet one another, and by long iron nails."  Might be dovetails, might be
something else...

For Northern Europe, absent that one reference, dovetail corner joinery
seems to have appeared in the mid- to late 15th century.  There is some
indication that it spread northward beginning in the mid-15th; the earliest
examples I'm familiar with are in southern Germany.  Dovetailed chests
appear quite suddenly in great numbers in France, Flanders, and England
right around 1500.

That's my brief take on the subject.  This is something that a few people
are starting to look into seriously, so I hope that we can get more
definitive answers.

Cheers,
Colin


Albion Works
Furniture and Accessories
For the Medievalist!
http://www.albionworks.net
http://www.albionworks.com

--- kjworzie <kjworz@...> wrote:
> My period library is
> limited, and web searches find dovetail joinery only used late in
> period.  (and the shape of the tails have more of an acute angle than
> is fashionable in the 18th C, and looks really cool because of
> that....) What is the earliest citation anyone has on dovetail
> joinery for boxes or coffers or chests?

I've traded e-mails with an Egyptian furniture researcher (web site at
http://www.geocities.com/gpkillen/) who told me dovetails are found on
Egyptian furniture.

I wouldn't worry too much about angles.  I doubt there's any
documentation to prove or disprove standardization of dovetail angles
during the SCA time period.  Heck, one could argue that they're not
standard now....

If you tell me what time period you're going for, I'll see if I can
scan something and send it to you.

Ulrich


__________________________________
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Yahoo! SiteBuilder - Free, easy-to-use web site design software
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---
>
> Yes.  Also makes them tricky to construct, because there's a good
reason
> why the dovetail angle was reduced over time.  The short grain out
at the end wants
> to break off.
>
> >



The aesthetic is so neat.  A small detail that shouts period all by
itself.  That is so neat.

Of course it weak, but why was it used.  Using the assumption that
Medieval craftsman aren't stupid... why did an inherently week joint
survive as long as it did?  They saw the results for themselves.
They weren't waiting for a future technological innovation, (at least
I don't think...).  Why did it take them a while to switch to
narrower (1:8 for hardwood) dovetails?  What advantage did the 1:5
ratio give them?  Was it easier to make with wet wood?  There is a
lot of carving on the example I saw, wet wood might be easier to
carve, but there would still be wood checks.  The theoreticals thrill
me, but I have few answers or even conjecture at this time.

I'd love to know if there are any examples from the 13th C.  Even
14th.  Either in furniture or text.


--- In medievalsawdust@yahoogroups.com, Joseph Hayes
<von_landstuhl@y...> wrote:
>

> http://www.geocities.com/gpkillen/) who told me dovetails are found
on
> Egyptian furniture.
>
> I wouldn't worry too much about angles.  I doubt there's any
> documentation to prove or disprove standardization of dovetail
angles
> during the SCA time period.  Heck, one could argue that they're not
> standard now....
>
> If you tell me what time period you're going for, I'll see if I can
> scan something and send it to you.
>
> Ulrich
>
>

> Of course it weak, but why was it used.  Using the assumption that
> Medieval craftsman aren't stupid... why did an inherently week joint
> survive as long as it did?  They saw the results for themselves.

One thing that historians need to keep in mind that the people and processes
they study weren't equipped with Internet communication.  Ideas/inventions
changed more slowly than most modern folks expect.  So did incremental
improvements on a technique.

--
Cheers --- Larry Marshall
Quebec City, QC

I agree.  Literacy, cheap printed matter, and now electronic media
have accelerated the exchange of ideas, but that didn't stop the
workman of the time from being intimately familiar with his
material.  He could observe what worked and what did not.  He may
have been constrained under a guild system, but he wasn't blind.

I was the head brewer for a small microbrewery.  I was essentially
isolated, but that didn't prevent me from innovating my processes,
mostly by trial and error, but also by instinct.  Processes I later
found out were standard throughout the industry and worked as I
figured out independently.

Stradivarious didn't have the internet.  (Ok, he was a genius.  A
giant standing on the shoulders of giants, but still...)




> One thing that historians need to keep in mind that the people and
processes
> they study weren't equipped with Internet communication.
Ideas/inventions
> changed more slowly than most modern folks expect.  So did
incremental
> improvements on a technique.
>
> --
> Cheers --- Larry Marshall
> Quebec City, QC

I have worked wide boards(18-24in) If making 6 board chests planes and
scrapers work best. If the boards have a lot cup to them you can use that to
your advantage and make a hump top and buldged(sp) sides for your chests.  I
was fun to cut the curved dove tails to match the curve of the wood.

James Cunningham

> I need to figure out a use for this couple hundred boardfeet of WIDE
> Walnut I have in my basement.  It was only a buck a board foot at
> that country auction, so I guess I could just use it as firewood....
> Naw.  I need to spiff up my kit.  And I have Rubbermaid containers
> that could be transmogrified into wooded chests....  I'll make a bed
> later, but chests are my current project.
>
> {

That durer engraving was done in 1514, not 1492

http://www.ibiblio.org/wm/paint/auth/durer/engravings/melencolia-i.jpg


albrecht durer

Rumor has it that this print/woodcut has a 6 board chest joined with
dovetails.  It was done in 1492

Anyone have access to a better copy to study it more closely?

Try this: Web Gallery of Art
http://gallery.euroweb.hu/html/d/durer/2/13/4/index.html

The artwork on this site is able to be VERY much enlarged, so you should
be able to pick out all kinds of details.

Pax,

::Linda::

-----Original Message-----
From: kjworzie [mailto:kjworz@...]
Subject: [medievalsawdust] Re: Dovetails

http://www.ibiblio.org/wm/paint/auth/durer/engravings/melencolia-i.jpg
albrecht durer

Rumor has it that this print/woodcut has a 6 board chest joined with
dovetails.
Anyone have access to a better copy to study it more closely?

Re: Melencholia -

>Rumor has it that this print/woodcut has a 6 board chest joined with
>dovetails.

Nope, no chest in this engraving.  The chief objects of interest here (to
us) are the plane, the dividers, an interesting form of the square, and a
straightedge.

However, dovetails do appear in several other Durer works.  This is hardly
surprising, as 1) he had spent considerable time in Italy, and 2) dovetail
joinery was already well known in south Germany at the time.

(An aside: the "6-board chest" usually means "boarded" construction, not
dovetailed.  The principal distinction is that the end-pieces on a boarded
chest are oriented grain-vertical, and extend downward to raise the chest
off the floor.  Renaissance dovetailed chests were usually raised off the
floor by a separately-constructed plinth, usually also dovetailed.)

Cheers,
Colin


Albion Works
Furniture and Accessories
For the Medievalist!
http://www.albionworks.net
http://www.albionworks.com