v2cad@...

Your puter has a bug or your email.com address is compromised.

Mike Graf

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Rick Ollah (area51werks) has posted a new message titled "Issue with cracking welds".

Posted: Sun, May 27th, 2012 - 11:25PM

I have had this happen in the past but not often. I was butt welding a quarter panel using a tig welder. I filed the seam and started to work it with a pick and other tools to even the two panels. I used a shrinking disc to level the seam. As I was doing this I noticed the panel cracked right next to the weld. I re-tigged the panel and started to rework it. I used a torch to soften the seam thinking maybe I had work hardened it with the shrinking disc. AS I reworked it the seam cracked again. Anyone have any ideas about why this is happening and how to correct it?		area51werks

John Kelly (ghiafab) has posted a new message titled "Re: Issue with cracking welds".

Posted: Mon, May 28th, 2012 - 10:18AM

Hi Rick, Are you using the sharp end of a picking hammer on the metal? Also filing the area might be thinning it too much? I rarely file much. The shrinking disc will not work harden the metal. It has the opposite effect. Perhaps the kind of welding rod you are using is the culprit? I don't Tig so someone else might be able the help you with that part. John		ghiafab

Rick Ollah (area51werks) has posted a new message titled "Re: Issue with cracking welds".

Posted: Mon, May 28th, 2012 - 9:38PM

Hi John, No, actually I can't really get a pick up under the back side. I had to devise a system of prying the seam up in order to work it down and metal finish it. My goal wa to only remove metal from the weld and then work the seam flat. I'm feeling like I had too much tension across the seam. I wish I could add photos it would be easier to show than to tell.		area51werks

GTAW (TIG) weld cracking in the Heat Affected Zone is not
uncommon. Especially on thin sections. I don't know what sort
of procedure you are using; but, shooting from the hip, I'd guess
that you may be getting the work too hot. Try a lot of small tacks
and then tie them together with a skip pattern. If you can get a
dolly behind the weld, gently tap the tacks as they cool. Same
with the finish welds.

If you aren't purging the backside, you might want to try that, too.

Good luck!

Hi guys. I'm mainly a lurker here. Work on hot rods and race cars as a hobby and
run a sheet metal shop, but rarely work with compound curves - although I want
to do that more. I wanted to throw out a borderline off-topic question here to
try and take advantage of the brain trust held by those of you who run or have
run artisinal shops.

If the moderator feels that this is too far off topic, I understand and am sorry
to have wasted your time.

Anyway, we're atypical of fab shops in that we're basically all journeymen or
very close to it. Other than my sister who helps in the office as well as the
shop, I've got 6 top-notch fabricators, but no apprentices. This means that
we're known for great work, but have trouble making money on more production
oriented projects. So its clear to me that we need to start cultivating talent
and bringing along a young person or two.

Problem is, taking on someone raw is a risk and an investment. Like all such
actions, we want to hedge our bets and not have the person fail, hurt himself or
others, become a competitor, et cetera. In our area (Northern California) most
candidates fall into one of several categories:

-Trade school guy: These guys are usually either welders or HVAC guys. Neither
constitute a fabricator. HVAC guys usually want to do that and not metalwork;
and frankly a lot of welders are lunkheads who just want to run beads all day.

-Burning man guy: usually smart and artsy, with the potential to develop good
skills. Also often cary a bit of an attitude, and rarely have much loyalty. If
something "cooler" comes along, they're on it.

-Rural guy: I've had decent luck with this type, as long as they're not spoiled
by too much sloppy tract work. Problem is, we're urban, and the commute burns
guys out and doesn't promote loyalty.

-Immigrant: There's real potential here, both from guys who have picked up
skills elsewhere, and in that many have old-school work ethics and less of a
sense of entitlement. There are potential issues with language, and I've found
it harder to get the word out, as these guys often don't look to Craigslist for
job listings.

Bottom line is that we need someone with aptitude and attitude. I'd love to hear
feedback from any of you "vets" on what have been good stategies for getting the
word out and selecting the right guy. I also wonder if there is any standardized
testing that we can give out that will help us determine if a person has good 3D
visualization, geometric and overall mechanical aptitude for the position.

Thanks so much.

Berkeley Choate
Walter mork Company Inc.

 

 

----- Original Message -----

From: Berkeley

To: metalshapers@yahoogroups.com

Sent: Tuesday, May 29, 2012 10:38 AM

Subject: [metalshapers] Apprentices...(long)

 

Hi guys. I'm mainly a lurker here. Work on hot rods and race cars as a hobby and run a sheet metal shop, but rarely work with compound curves - although I want to do that more. I wanted to throw out a borderline off-topic question here to try and take advantage of the brain trust held by those of you who run or have run artisinal shops.

If the moderator feels that this is too far off topic, I understand and am sorry to have wasted your time.

Anyway, we're atypical of fab shops in that we're basically all journeymen or very close to it. Other than my sister who helps in the office as well as the shop, I've got 6 top-notch fabricators, but no apprentices. This means that we're known for great work, but have trouble making money on more production oriented projects. So its clear to me that we need to start cultivating talent and bringing along a young person or two.

Problem is, taking on someone raw is a risk and an investment. Like all such actions, we want to hedge our bets and not have the person fail, hurt himself or others, become a competitor, et cetera. In our area (Northern California) most candidates fall into one of several categories:

-Trade school guy: These guys are usually either welders or HVAC guys. Neither constitute a fabricator. HVAC guys usually want to do that and not metalwork; and frankly a lot of welders are lunkheads who just want to run beads all day.

-Burning man guy: usually smart and artsy, with the potential to develop good skills. Also often cary a bit of an attitude, and rarely have much loyalty. If something "cooler" comes along, they're on it.

-Rural guy: I've had decent luck with this type, as long as they're not spoiled by too much sloppy tract work. Problem is, we're urban, and the commute burns guys out and doesn't promote loyalty.

-Immigrant: There's real potential here, both from guys who have picked up skills elsewhere, and in that many have old-school work ethics and less of a sense of entitlement. There are potential issues with language, and I've found it harder to get the word out, as these guys often don't look to Craigslist for job listings.

Bottom line is that we need someone with aptitude and attitude. I'd love to hear feedback from any of you "vets" on what have been good stategies for getting the word out and selecting the right guy. I also wonder if there is any standardized testing that we can give out that will help us determine if a person has good 3D visualization, geometric and overall mechanical aptitude for the position.

Thanks so much.

Berkeley Choate
Walter mork Company Inc.

Sons,daughter relatives of existing employees.

Some issues maybe, but they are usually easy to spot early on.

Mike Graf

On 5/29/2012 10:38 AM, Berkeley wrote:
> Hi guys. I'm mainly a lurker here. Work on hot rods and race cars as a hobby
and run a sheet metal shop, but rarely work with compound curves - although I
want to do that more. I wanted to throw out a borderline off-topic question here
to try and take advantage of the brain trust held by those of you who run or
have run artisinal shops.
>
> If the moderator feels that this is too far off topic, I understand and am
sorry to have wasted your time.
>
> Anyway, we're atypical of fab shops in that we're basically all journeymen or
very close to it. Other than my sister who helps in the office as well as the
shop, I've got 6 top-notch fabricators, but no apprentices. This means that
we're known for great work, but have trouble making money on more production
oriented projects. So its clear to me that we need to start cultivating talent
and bringing along a young person or two.
>
> Problem is, taking on someone raw is a risk and an investment. Like all such
actions, we want to hedge our bets and not have the person fail, hurt himself or
others, become a competitor, et cetera. In our area (Northern California) most
candidates fall into one of several categories:
>
> -Trade school guy: These guys are usually either welders or HVAC guys. Neither
constitute a fabricator. HVAC guys usually want to do that and not metalwork;
and frankly a lot of welders are lunkheads who just want to run beads all day.
>
> -Burning man guy: usually smart and artsy, with the potential to develop good
skills. Also often cary a bit of an attitude, and rarely have much loyalty. If
something "cooler" comes along, they're on it.
>
> -Rural guy: I've had decent luck with this type, as long as they're not
spoiled by too much sloppy tract work. Problem is, we're urban, and the commute
burns guys out and doesn't promote loyalty.
>
> -Immigrant: There's real potential here, both from guys who have picked up
skills elsewhere, and in that many have old-school work ethics and less of a
sense of entitlement. There are potential issues with language, and I've found
it harder to get the word out, as these guys often don't look to Craigslist for
job listings.
>
> Bottom line is that we need someone with aptitude and attitude. I'd love to
hear feedback from any of you "vets" on what have been good stategies for
getting the word out and selecting the right guy. I also wonder if there is any
standardized testing that we can give out that will help us determine if a
person has good 3D visualization, geometric and overall mechanical aptitude for
the position.
>
> Thanks so much.
>
> Berkeley Choate
> Walter mork Company Inc.
>
>
>
> ------------------------------------
>
> Introduce yourselves here:
> http://allshops.org/cgi-bin/community/cforums.cgi?forumid=108921644329407
>
> We now have the MSA Forums working. The forums will store our images and will
not be erased. The moderators of MSA would like for all "keeper" posts with good
technical information and photos, be placed in the forums at the MSA web site:
> http://allshops.org/cgi-bin/community/cfdirectory.cgi?categoryid=9990091247057
> The forum messages are also forwarded to this email group so you can get them
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>
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privileges -- simply edit your membership for “NO EMAIL” at the following link:
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>
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>

 

Hi Jim,

 

Thanks for the reply. That re-inforces my thought about work hardening. I think I was on track with my thought but I wasn't thinking about the amount of heat I was using during my welding. I now have welded this crack three times. I need to cut out the whole seam now and start over. I think I will try to clamp or cleco a copper strip on the back side as a heat sink and to help prevent the weld metal from dropping or causing the bead on the back side. With the limited access to the back side of this seam It makes it really hard to hand planish or level the seam. I'm using 1/16" 70S-2 tig rod. Should I look at another filler rod?

 

I'm going to try to attach a couple photos here if I can....

 

If you can see the photos I will tell you how and why I had such a large hole in the filler panel between the trunk lid and top cover. This car had both quarter panels replaced and they were brazed on at the seam. The filler panel was damaged by the last guy. It was hammered to death and with the trunk hinge mount under it there was no way to work out the damage. If you look you will see the trunk/top mount is visable through the large hole I cut in the filler panel.

 

I was able to metal finish three sides of the patch panel I made with the exception of the small curve next to the trunk lid. But as I moved to the seam in the photo I circled I noticed it was cracking as I was attempting to work it with the shrinking disc.

 

I guess I will cut a strip out of the panel and try it again.

 

Rick

I'm glad that the topic has been welcomed. Older apprentices are not a bad idea
- especially if they have some transferable skills from their past employment.
Sadly, there's a lot of ageism out there. In Blue collar work, I've seen guys
with proven skills over the age of 50 get passed over for so-called
"go-getters",  which is often BS as the older guy usually makes up for in savy
and skills what he may lack in energy.

The flip side of that coin is that with the bad economy, a lot of older folks
can't afford to retire, so young-uns are having to wait longer for their turn.

My grandfather ran an organisation of businessmen who went out of their way to
try and hire ex-cons. I find that admirable, as I'd rather have them working
than stealing or otherwise creating havoc. It takes a certain amount of balls to
do that though, as a lot of those guys are on a revolving door....

I'm inspired to contact a couple of high schools. A new senior class will be
letting out in a manner of weeks, and there very well may be a shop class star
or two out there who'd be the right fit for us.

Thanks for the thoughts. Please continue the discussion if you have more of
value to add.


--- In metalshapers@yahoogroups.com, doug odom <dlodom427@...> wrote:
>
> 15 or 20 years ago I was talking to the local high school principal. I asked
him when was the last time he invited the owners of the business' that hired
workers around our area to come tell him what they wanted the kids to know when
they graduated. He looked at me like I had asked him for a large cash loan. He
told me what the percentage of students were that were going to college. I told
him that his job was to produce a product that people wanted to hire.  I asked
him what about the other students?  He said that they didn't really need to
know much to get a blue collar job. I was so pissed I just walked away.
>
> Later a man that had overheard us came up and told me he was a student
counselor at the school. He asked what type student I would want to hire. I told
him just someone that would show up for work every day ready to do what they
were told. Had good basic math, language skills  and a positive attitude. 
>
> He had me come to the school and meet with the shop teachers. They still had
shop classes then. Over the years they sent me some really great kids that we
were able to train to do very good work.
>
> There are some good people out there.
>
> Doug
>
>  
>
>
>
> ________________________________
>  From: Wes Stewart <wes.stewart@...>
> To: metalshapers@yahoogroups.com
> Sent: Wednesday, May 30, 2012 11:06 AM
> Subject: RE: [metalshapers] Apprentices...(long)
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Great and insightful thread.
> When I get done with my present job, [read retire] I sure hope the likes of
you are still looking for apprentices.
> It may be a short, 10year, career, but I’d come to work delighted to be
making stuff. It’s a passion. And I am always thirsty for knowledge.
>  
> My point being that if you are looking for interested, loyal, eager
apprentices and workers, you may wish to market the offer to seniors. OK, you
might also have to give a little slack on hours and such, but I bet you could
get some real gems into the shop.
>  
> WES
> Subject:Re: [metalshapers] Apprentices...(long)
>  
>  
>

Peter Dow (peterdow) has posted a new message titled "Re: Press brake 2-bend methods".

Posted: Thurs, May 31st, 2012 - 10:09AM

I've found a video of a press brake fitted with a corrugation die set. http://www.youtube.com/wa[...]69oZjic		peterdow

We seem to have a number of folks who never see the instructions for changing
email preferences. Many leave the list to avoid the e-mails rather than simply
turning the mail off, so this message will go out monthly as a reminder:

If you do not wish to receive e-mails but do wish to maintain membership
privileges -- simply edit your membership for “NO EMAIL” at the following link:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/metalshapers/join?referer=1


To leave the group and discontinue all membership privileges -- send an e-mail
to: metalshapers-unsubscribe@...

Thanks,

The Moderators, Metalshapers

Just a quick reminder to Yahoo MSA members:

If you haven't registered at the MSA web site, you should do so. By logging in
at the MSA web site you will have access to several features, such as the albums
and forums.

One new feature is Member Search, where you can locate members based on several
different searches:
http://allshops.org/cgi-bin/community/membersearch.cgi
If you want to find the Metalshapers in your state or city -- you can do that.

We have the Forum working now and in the interest of archiving the "keeper"
posts and images... the moderators would like to invite you to post your good
technical posts and images there.
http://allshops.org/cgi-bin/community/cfdirectory.cgi?categoryid=9990091247057
General discussions that do not need to be archived can stay on yahoo. We hope
the result will be a tidy archive of usable information.

Also, if you haven't introduced yourself on the forum -- we also invite you to
jump in introduce yourself!
http://allshops.org/cgi-bin/community/cforums.cgi?forumid=108921644329407

Thanks,

MSA Moderators

Hi All
Hoping to get some help with a project i am about to start on. I am looking into
building something like this.
http://www.baileighindustrial.com/sheet-metal-equipment/bending-brakes/bb-4816m.\
php

By using 2-3 of these.
http://www.ebay.com.au/itm/Iron-And-Wooden-Door-Use-Electric-Magnetic-Lock-280Kg\
-600lb-Holding-Force-/251071000808?_trksid=p3284.m263&_trkparms=algo%3DSI%26its%\
3DI%26itu%3DUCI%252BRTU%26otn%3D21%26pmod%3D160448877151%26ps%3D54

Any ideas if it would work??

Eric

From: ericreader46

To: metalshapers@yahoogroups.com

Sent: Wednesday, June 13, 2012 7:32 AM

Subject: [metalshapers] Magnetic Box and Pan Brake

 

Hi All
Hoping to get some help with a project i am about to start on. I am looking into building something like this.
http://www.baileighindustrial.com/sheet-metal-equipment/bending-brakes/bb-4816m.php

By using 2-3 of these.
http://www.ebay.com.au/itm/Iron-And-Wooden-Door-Use-Electric-Magnetic-Lock-280Kg-600lb-Holding-Force-/251071000808?_trksid=p3284.m263&_trkparms=algo%3DSI%26its%3DI%26itu%3DUCI%252BRTU%26otn%3D21%26pmod%3D160448877151%26ps%3D54

Any ideas if it would work??

Eric

Better yet, do a bit of searching for 'magnetic break' and find the post by the
original inventor of the 'Magnabend'.  When his patent expired, it was copied
EXACTLY by the China crowd and now is marketed worldwide by folks like Baileigh
and others.

It pissed him off enough that he posted complete build instructions complete
with parts list and parts numbers.

Here is a link of interest:

http://www.practicalmachinist.com/vb/general/magnetic-bend-brake-e-g-magnabend-2\
17995/

The inventor, Alan, responded to a bunch of guys wanting to build their own. 
But SOMEWHERE on the web, I've seen the how-to.

Ah found it.  Here you go:

http://aaybee.com.au/Magnabend/Magnabend%20Homepage.html

I own a Magnabend.  Amazing amazing tool.

Kerry Pinkerton

--- In metalshapers@yahoogroups.com, bl55303@... wrote:
>
> Talk   to  Dan  Pate...he  has  2   of  them  they  plug  in  on
> 110......   Barry L
>
>
> In a message dated 6/14/2012 9:29:04 P.M. Central Daylight Time,
> stingshp@... writes:
>
>
>
> Interesting possibility ,the amount of clamping  force is less than
> Baileigh's  which shows 6 tons. would clamping power  increase with added
Magnets
> in multiples or stay constantat 600lb for all  . Hinge assembly has been my
> biggest stumbling point on the Brakes I've  homebuilt.
>  GordonB
>
>   r----- Original Message -----
>
> From:  _ericreader46_ (mailto:eric.bear@...)
> To: _metalshapers@yahoogroups.com_ (mailto:metalshapers@yahoogroups.com)
> Sent: Wednesday, June 13, 2012 7:32  AM
> Subject: [metalshapers] Magnetic Box  and Pan Brake
>
>
>
> Hi All
> Hoping to get some help with a project i am about to start on.  I am
> looking into building something like this.
> _http://www.baileighindustrial.com/sheet-metal-equipment/bending-brakes/bb-4
> 816m.php_
>
(http://www.baileighindustrial.com/sheet-metal-equipment/bending-brakes/bb-4816m\
.php)
>
> By  using 2-3 of these.
> _http://www.ebay.com.au/itm/Iron-And-Wooden-Door-Use-Electric-Magnetic-Lock-
> 280Kg-600lb-Holding-Force-/251071000808?_trksid=p3284.m263&_trkparms=algo%3D
> SI%26its%3DI%26itu%3DUCI%252BRTU%26otn%3D21%26pmod%3D160448877151%26ps%3D54_
>
>
(http://www.ebay.com.au/itm/Iron-And-Wooden-Door-Use-Electric-Magnetic-Lock-280K\
g-600lb-Holding-Force-/251071000808?_trksid=p3284.m263&_trkparms=algo=S
> I&its=I&itu=UCI%2BRTU&otn=21&pmod=160448877151&ps=54)
>
> Any ideas if it would work??
>
> Eric
>