I don't have time to write much right now, as I'm about to leave on a
road trip, and I won't be back until the end of the week, but I just
want to say that I personally wouldn't haven't invested the time and
energy to oppose a gay rights bill the way Pastor Hutch has. I don't
think my attention as a Christian should be focused on publicly
fighting the sin in the world, but to introduce people to Jesus. For
that reason, I didn't attend the Mayday for Marriage rally in Seattle
last year like many others from my church did. I do, however, still
agree with Pastor Hutch's stance on the gay rights bill, in that it's
something I cannot support. Disregarding my previous examples of
rights for prostitutes and child molesters, you could also use
mundane examples, if you want to look at it terms of something that
people don't see as wrong. As a Star Trek fan, I could demand a law
that prevents discrimination against Trekkies. Or since I own an
Acura, I could demand a law that prevents discrimination against
Acura owners. There are no laws that prevent discrimination in those
areas, so why do gay people need a special law that protects them?
In all the online forums I've seen this past week where gay people
are protesting against what's happened, I haven't seen any gay people
complain about any specific incidents of discrimination against gays
or provide any such examples. They're just complaining about
discrimination that COULD happen under law. And the fact remains
that being gay is a choice, contrary to what most of them believe,
otherwise God wouldn't have declared it a sin. As a Christian, I
cannot support something that says people need protection because of
their sinful lifestyle. So if given the chance to stand for or
against a gay rights bill, I'd still stand against it, and I support
Pastor Hutch in what he stands for. But I also wouldn't have freaked
out if HB 1515 had passed. We'd still be free to reach out to the
lost in the same way.

Maybe in a roundabout way, the attention brought on by this whole
fiasco may have opened up doors of conversation to the gay community
in order for the real message about Christ to reach them. Their
anger against us didn't make them run away from us, they showed up at
our church yesterday to protest Pastor Hutch! And no violence
occurred; in fact, Pastor Hutch invited them inside for the 11:00
service, and I saw some members of our church having some civilized
conversations with them afterwards. So it seems God does use people
in ways that don't seem conventional to most of us.

Okay, I'll have to continue this after I get back from my road trip.

(You can go to http://groups.yahoo.com/group/celephone to see updates
I send from my cell phone!)

--Wayne


--- In pugetsoundchristiansingles@yahoogroups.com, "Robert"
<robertkrone@y...> wrote:
>
> Actually I don't really disagree with you. My main problem is that
> the Moral Majority or Religious Right, whichever you want to call
it,
> is doing a Dis-service to true Christians. As Christians we are
> supposed to pray for others, reach out to the sinners, and Compel
them
> to Christ. But most of today's Christians, the ones making news and
> in the public eye anyway, are, as my pastor said this past weekend,
> Repelling people from Christ and Christianity. We are not supposed
to
> bash homosexuals or even exclude them, too many churches shame
people
> who don't conform to their standards or they deem as sinners. Not
> enough actually reach out and just serve people, serve without
asking
> for anything in return. Jesus served, he gave of himself, and that
> compelled people to listen to him, to hear what he had to say, a lot
> of religious people out there today are detested by others because
> they have this high and mighty attitude, which is very visible with
> the religious extremists in today Christian World.
>
> This bill doesn't give anyone special rights, it protects their
> rights. The problem with what your pastor has said is that is
doesn't
> open that supposed Pandora's Box, as those other things mentioned
are
> Illegal, prostitution is illegal in states except for Nevada, Child
> Molestation is illegal in all the US, homosexuality is not illegal
> however. Yes, it is a sin, however, not everyone follows our
> religious beliefs, and to them it is not wrong, and we have no right
> to force our religious beliefs on anyone. Law-abiding citizens
> deserve to not be discriminated against. Discrimination based on
> religion is al illegal, but that is a choice, a chosen way of life,
> it's something you can change.
>
> If you disagree with something, that is fine, but it helps the
church
> none at all to go in public and condemn and fight against
homosexual's
> rights to n ot be discriminated against. Spend more time serving
the
> community or doing global outreach, something to bring people to God
> instead of push them away. I think that is part of the reason why
the
> morals in this country continue to decline, certain people decide
that
> they are better than others because of their religion and act like
it,
> and it is repulsive, and the only people who want to be around them
> are others like them. Religious people couldn't stand being around
> Jesus in his time, but the sinners loved him because he accepted
them,
> he loved them, he reached out to them, without demanding anything in
> return, and without joining in that sinful behavior. Let's not
forget
> we are all sinners in need of God's grace. I do not think You
> personally have lost sight of that, but I think certain individuals
> who think it is their God-given mission to suppress sinners have
lost
> sight of that.
>
> Don't confuse this with me wanting any special rights for gays, I
> don't, but they do deserve to have the same basic rights as every
> citizen in the US should have, and right now discrimination against
> them is not prohibited by law. I'm also not advocating marriage,
as I
> feel that is more of a priviledge, and every state that has voted
for
> banning gay marriage has had it passed. This bill wouldn't Force
you
> to hire someone because they are gay, it would simply prevent your
> from Not hiring someone simply because they are gay. I would also
> disagree if this forced people to hire someone because they were
gay,
> but it's not giving special rights to them that no one else has,
> unless you could show me that, I didn't see anything like that,
though
> I could have just missed it.
>
> Oh yes, and thanks for actually listening and replying instead of
> attacking or claiming other nonesense, hehe, there are people who
> would do that. Of course I also know there is a Baptist church in
WA
> somewhere that says that churches who use drums and guitars and such
> are actually preaching the devil's work, and luckily I havn't seen
> people that nutty in here, hehe :P
>
> Oh yeah, and not sure if you have ever heard of him, but my pastor
is
> David Johnson from Church of the Open Door in Minnesota, he's quite
> popular and known in the states and overseas because of his messages
> and just how well of a preacher/pastor he is, and because of our
work
> overseas in countries like Haiti and Uganda and others, and now in
> Sub-Sahara Africa. Well, I am done babbling, hehe. God Bless
>
> --- In pugetsoundchristiansingles@yahoogroups.com, "celebok"
> <celebok@e...> wrote:
> >
> > Okay, here's my stance on the whole "gay rights" issue and HB
1515.
> >
> > As a Christian who believes that the Bible is the Word of God, I
> > cannot support a bill that would imply that sinful behavior is
> > acceptable and force me to treat others with certain privileges
on
> > that basis. Homosexuals already have the same legal rights as
any
> > other human beings, and we already have laws to protect all
citizens
> > from being mistreated. People can refuse to sell or rent a home
to
> > anyone or hire someone for any stupid reason. Current anti-
> > discrimination laws are in place because our society has a
history
> > of legally denying privileges to people because of factors like
race
> > and gender--characteristics that a person can't change. But if
> > you're to make it a law that you can't discriminate based on a
> > certain BEHAVIOR, especially sinful behavior, which is what
> > homosexuality is, that just opens up Pandora's Box, as Pastor
Hutch
> > says. People can then demand laws that prevent discrimination
> > against anything from prostitutes to convicted child molesters to
> > unmarried couples living together to people who produce internet
> > porn. I would have no problem hiring a gay gardener, but I would
> > want to do so out of my own choice and desire to interact with
> > someone who needs to know Jesus, not because I have to by law.
> >
> > That's where I stand. You can feel free to disagree with me if
you
> > want.
> >
> > --Wayne
> >
> >
> > --- In pugetsoundchristiansingles@yahoogroups.com, "Robert"
> > <robertkrone@y...> wrote:
> > >
> > > I will agree the article is definetely slanted, but this
article
> > also
> > > disturbs me in a couple ways. My question is why is this
leader in
> > > the Christian world trying to allow legality of
discrimination?
> > Even
> > > if it is wrong to be homosexual, that doesn't mean they should
> > > subjected to discrimination. I was also disturbed at the part
that
> > > said that this paster doesn't tolerate homosexuals in his
church.
> > I'm
> > > curious, do you think Jesus would discriminate and have no
> > tolerance
> > > for this? Yes, they are Sinners, but Sinners are who should be
> > most
> > > prayed for, the most reached-out for, not discriminated against
or
> > > untolerated. These people can also be reached by God's word,
can
> > end
> > > their Homosexual acts and persue a relationship with Christ and
> > God,
> > > but that won't happen when people who are supposed to be
leaders of
> > > the faith shut these people out.
> > >
> > > This bill, unless I am mistaken, doesn't advocate marriage
rights
> > for
> > > gays, so I really fail to see what the point of fighting it
is. I
> > am
> > > against Gay marriage, but they are still humans and should be
> > > discriminated against because of that lifestyle.
> > >
> > > Just my opinion, feel free to disagree, but I fail to see how
> > > intolerance and discrimination can be justified in a religion
that
> > > preaches love for all, a religion where the main leader (Christ)
> > > reached out to the worst sinners of the time. What is
Christlike
> > by
> > > being for discrimination and intolerance? Would this paster
still
> > > love a child if they turned out homosexual or would he suddenly
> > disown
> > > them and not claim to be accept them anymore? The latter is
what I
> > > would be led to suspect based on his attitudes. I can
understand
> > > being against and fighting against gay marriage as I am fully
> > against
> > > gays being allowed to marry, but in reality, marriage isn't a
> > right,
> > > it is a priviledge.
> > >
> > > But as I said, that's just my opinion, and I know a lot
disagree
> > with
> > > me, but oh well
> > >
> > > --- In pugetsoundchristiansingles@yahoogroups.com, "celebok"
> > > <celebok@e...> wrote:
> > > >
> > > > I know there are some people in this group who go to Antioch
> > Bible
> > > > Church, there are some who work for Microsoft, and some, like
> > me, are
> > > > in both categories. Either way, I want to bring this totally
> > negative
> > > > and Liberal tilted article from The Stranger (a Seattle
> > newspaper that
> > > > appears to be anything but edifying to God) to your
attention,
> > as it
> > > > focuses on Microsoft's recent change in stance on House bill
> > 1515, the
> > > > gay rights bill, after a Microsoft executive met with Pastor
Ken
> > > > Hutcherson. Those who know Hutch know that he will certainly
> > stand
> > > > firm on the truth no matter what happens, but we still need
to
> > be
> > > > praying for him, as he will most certainly gain more enemies
the
> > more
> > > > public this issue becomes.
> > > >
> > > > http://www.thestranger.com/2005-04-21/feature.html
> > > >
> > > > --Wayne