Could sorely use some help. I have Peter Alway's drawings and pics on
the Nike/BB (aka bbVIII) and just dont get the photos. Anyone out there
understand the dims and how it all fits together? This is an almost 1/2
acale project slated for Balls.
Thanks in advance,
John S

I'll give it a try, here's what I see in the
drawings/photos;

Most of the diameter of the sustainer is 17.26", but
the bottom section which covers about 2/3 of the fins
root cord steps down to 16.2" in diameter.  Between
the sustainer and the booster motor is the transition
which in the pictures appears to be about the diameter
of the booster motor except at the top it has a slight
taper to size down to the diameter at the bottom of
the sustainer (16.2").  At the very bottom of this
transition section are (2) drag brakes that stick out
at 90 degrees, these are the objects you see in the
view from above (drawing view A-A) at the top of the
page.

Hope this helps, post again if you see something
different that I didn't cover

Steve

--- John R Smolley <denverdoc@...> wrote:

> Could sorely use some help. I have Peter Alway's
> drawings and pics on
> the Nike/BB (aka bbVIII) and just dont get the
> photos. Anyone out there
> understand the dims and how it all fits together?
> This is an almost 1/2
> acale project slated for Balls.
> Thanks in advance,
> John S
>
>
>



      
________________________________________________________________________________\
____
Park yourself in front of a world of choices in alternative vehicles. Visit the
Yahoo! Auto Green Center.
http://autos.yahoo.com/green_center/

I have built two Black Brant VIII's, one at BT20 scale (for Peanut SpSc)
and the other at BT60 scale (for Giant SpSC).  Obviously you are building
a somewhat bigger model.  Anyway, I don't know what your goal is here, do
you really want an accurate down to the nuts and bolts model? Or do you
want something that looks really close?

If you want the latter, I would suggest forget about all the interstage
details and just do the drag plates.  That's what I did for both my scale
models and they look pretty good.  Of course if you ARE going to do the
highly detailed stuff you should do it all, the plates and bolts on the
Nike fins, fairings on the sustainer fins, the hex bolts on the nose cone,
the beveled shapes of all the fins etc., etc., etc.

I might have photos of some of the details on the vehicle at St Louis
Science center but I would have to dig for them.

John Buckley

On Mon, August 13, 2007 12:06 pm, Steve Foster wrote:
> I'll give it a try, here's what I see in the
> drawings/photos;
>
> Most of the diameter of the sustainer is 17.26", but
> the bottom section which covers about 2/3 of the fins
> root cord steps down to 16.2" in diameter.  Between
> the sustainer and the booster motor is the transition
> which in the pictures appears to be about the diameter
> of the booster motor except at the top it has a slight
> taper to size down to the diameter at the bottom of
> the sustainer (16.2").  At the very bottom of this
> transition section are (2) drag brakes that stick out
> at 90 degrees, these are the objects you see in the
> view from above (drawing view A-A) at the top of the
> page.
>
> Hope this helps, post again if you see something
> different that I didn't cover
>
> Steve
>
> --- John R Smolley <denverdoc@...> wrote:
>
>> Could sorely use some help. I have Peter Alway's
>> drawings and pics on
>> the Nike/BB (aka bbVIII) and just dont get the
>> photos. Anyone out there
>> understand the dims and how it all fits together?
>> This is an almost 1/2
>> acale project slated for Balls.
>> Thanks in advance,
>> John S
>>
>>
>>
>
>
>
>      
________________________________________________________________________________\
____
> Park yourself in front of a world of choices in alternative vehicles.
> Visit the Yahoo! Auto Green Center.
> http://autos.yahoo.com/green_center/
>
>
> Don't forget to check out NARScale's "official" web page.
> Go to http://welcome.to/narscale
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>


John Buckley

Team in Training Alumnus

100 mile bike ride for the Leukemia and Lymphoma Society

America's Most Beautiful Bike Ride: http://www.bikethewest.com/AMBRR.html

"In theory there is no difference between theory and practice. In
practice, however, there is".

Jan van de Snepscheut

The greatest obstacle to discovery is not ignorance - it is the illusion
of knowledge.
Daniel J. Boorstin

Reply sent offlist.

Josh T.

   ----- Original Message -----
   From: John R Smolley
   To: scaleroc@yahoogroups.com
   Sent: Sunday, August 12, 2007 11:16 PM
   Subject: [Scaleroc] Nike Black Brant Interstage Detail


   Could sorely use some help. I have Peter Alway's drawings and pics on
   the Nike/BB (aka bbVIII) and just dont get the photos. Anyone out there
   understand the dims and how it all fits together? This is an almost 1/2
   acale project slated for Balls.
   Thanks in advance,
   John S





[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Fellows,

Thamks for all the help--Josh's photos were terrific and left no
doubt as to where things go.


This is a semi-scale project, and I may have mentioned this on an
earlier post,(if so please forgive the repitition), that attempts to
go one step further in the area of scale realism, not by capturing
every rivet and other minute detail, but in replicating the basic
flight profile. As far as I know this may be something of a first.

Basically what I am talking about is replicating the burns in 1/2
scale duration and at least the peak Gees (20,12 respectively). This
means a 1.5 sec burn for the boost and 13 or so for the sustain.
Figuring the rocket will weigh about 120 lbs, this then translates to
over a ton of thrust for the booster to be provided by a cluster of
three M's 3500's (research motors in dec't) while the sustain will
use aerotechs new 98mm based M moonburner.

Sadly it will not achieve 1/2 the 400km altitude of the real thing.
My last sim set suggested somewhere in the vicinity of 30K. But for a
beast of this size, not exactly chump change either.
Cheers,
John S





  --- In scaleroc@yahoogroups.com, "Josh Tschirhart" <d no sadly it
rumn4j@...> wrote:
>
> Reply sent offlist.
>
> Josh T.
>
>   ----- Original Message -----
>   From: John R Smolley
>   To: scaleroc@yahoogroups.com
>   Sent: Sunday, August 12, 2007 11:16 PM
>   Subject: [Scaleroc] Nike Black Brant Interstage Detail
>
>
>   Could sorely use some help. I have Peter Alway's drawings and
pics on
>   the Nike/BB (aka bbVIII) and just dont get the photos. Anyone out
there
>   understand the dims and how it all fits together? This is an
almost 1/2
>   acale project slated for Balls.
>   Thanks in advance,
>   John S
>
>
>
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>

In a message dated 8/14/2007 9:15:28 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time,
denverdoc@... writes:

Thamks  for all the help--Josh's photos were terrific and left no
doubt as to  where things go.



******************************************************************************
*********

Hi,

From my experiences of working with Josh on projects, I would have  expected
nothing less than that ! ! !

Dave Fitch



************************************** Get a sneak peek of the all-new AOL at
http://discover.aol.com/memed/aolcom30tour


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

I was desperate enuf to contemplate a trip to St Louis and at the
risk of offending amy Missourans out there, that's desperate as I
have done the arch, etc. Josh's pics were drop dead gorgeous--at
least to a rocket geek.


--- In scaleroc@yahoogroups.com, Ez2cDave@... wrote:
>
>
> In a message dated 8/14/2007 9:15:28 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time,
> denverdoc@... writes:
>
> Thamks  for all the help--Josh's photos were terrific and left no
> doubt as to  where things go.
>
>
>
>
**********************************************************************
********
> *********
>
> Hi,
>
> From my experiences of working with Josh on projects, I would have
expected
> nothing less than that ! ! !
>
> Dave Fitch
>
>
>
> ************************************** Get a sneak peek of the all-
new AOL at
> http://discover.aol.com/memed/aolcom30tour
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>

WHO: The Pueblo Weisbrod Aircraft Museum and local chapter of the
National Assn. of Rocketry (NAR Section #632-Southern Colorado
Rocketeers)

WHAT: are having a model rocket flying day for the public and members
of the 4H

WHERE: at the Hudson Ranch located South West of Pueblo Colorado
approximately 9.6 miles on the Beulah Highway (Highway 78)

WHEN:  On 18 August 2007 starting at 9 AM until 2 PM.

COST: Free to the public. $5 for High Power Flyers if they are not
members of SCORE (NAR Section #632). Club memberships available on
the field.


Additional Information: FAA Waiver to 8,000 feet Above Ground Level .
Waiver in effect from 10 AM to 2 PM.  First time model rocket flyers
under eighteen years old will receive a certificate as part of the
National Association of Rocketry's 50th Anniversary celebration.
Please call or email the NAR Section with the number of first time
flyers so that the correct number of certificates will be on hand.

Contact Information: Contact Jason Unwin NAR Section President at
(719) 671-2407 or by email at jbu_2@... if you have any
questions. Visit the club's website at www.scronline.net . Visit the
Yahoo Group at www.groups.yahoo.com/group/SouthernColoradoRocketeers .

--------------------------------------END-----------------------------
--------

Well, if you do come to St Louis, I'll warn you, the Black Brant VIII is
gone.  They removed it when they remodeled 2 years ago. Did away with the
Thor Able as well.  Nobody at the Science center knows what they did with
it either.  Probably sitting in a warehouse somewhere.

John


On Tue, August 14, 2007 10:08 pm, John R Smolley wrote:
> I was desperate enuf to contemplate a trip to St Louis and at the
> risk of offending amy Missourans out there, that's desperate as I
> have done the arch, etc. Josh's pics were drop dead gorgeous--at
> least to a rocket geek.
>
>
> --- In scaleroc@yahoogroups.com, Ez2cDave@... wrote:
>>
>>
>> In a message dated 8/14/2007 9:15:28 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time,
>> denverdoc@... writes:
>>
>> Thamks  for all the help--Josh's photos were terrific and left no
>> doubt as to  where things go.
>>
>>
>>
>>
> **********************************************************************
> ********
>> *********
>>
>> Hi,
>>
>> From my experiences of working with Josh on projects, I would have
> expected
>> nothing less than that ! ! !
>>
>> Dave Fitch
>>
>>
>>
>> ************************************** Get a sneak peek of the all-
> new AOL at
>> http://discover.aol.com/memed/aolcom30tour
>>
>>
>> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>>
>
>
>
>
> Don't forget to check out NARScale's "official" web page.
> Go to http://welcome.to/narscale
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>


John Buckley

Team in Training Alumnus

100 mile bike ride for the Leukemia and Lymphoma Society

America's Most Beautiful Bike Ride: http://www.bikethewest.com/AMBRR.html

"In theory there is no difference between theory and practice. In
practice, however, there is".

Jan van de Snepscheut

The greatest obstacle to discovery is not ignorance - it is the illusion
of knowledge.
Daniel J. Boorstin

The Thor Able may be in Dayton, there is one there.  I
stopped on my way home - just a quick look as it was
very hot that day and I didn't want my motors sitting
in a hot car to long.  I did see what looked to be a
Aerobee Jr. sitting in the corner of one of the
hangers but it was roped off so I couldn't get close
enough to it for a good look.

Steve


--- John Buckley <jbuckley@...> wrote:

> Well, if you do come to St Louis, I'll warn you, the
> Black Brant VIII is
> gone.  They removed it when they remodeled 2 years
> ago. Did away with the
> Thor Able as well.  Nobody at the Science center
> knows what they did with
> it either.  Probably sitting in a warehouse
> somewhere.
>
> John
>
>
> On Tue, August 14, 2007 10:08 pm, John R Smolley
> wrote:
> > I was desperate enuf to contemplate a trip to St
> Louis and at the
> > risk of offending amy Missourans out there, that's
> desperate as I
> > have done the arch, etc. Josh's pics were drop
> dead gorgeous--at
> > least to a rocket geek.
> >
> >
> > --- In scaleroc@yahoogroups.com, Ez2cDave@...
> wrote:
> >>
> >>
> >> In a message dated 8/14/2007 9:15:28 A.M. Eastern
> Daylight Time,
> >> denverdoc@... writes:
> >>
> >> Thamks  for all the help--Josh's photos were
> terrific and left no
> >> doubt as to  where things go.
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >
>
**********************************************************************
> > ********
> >> *********
> >>
> >> Hi,
> >>
> >> From my experiences of working with Josh on
> projects, I would have
> > expected
> >> nothing less than that ! ! !
> >>
> >> Dave Fitch
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> ************************************** Get a
> sneak peek of the all-
> > new AOL at
> >> http://discover.aol.com/memed/aolcom30tour
> >>
> >>
> >> [Non-text portions of this message have been
> removed]
> >>
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > Don't forget to check out NARScale's "official"
> web page.
> > Go to http://welcome.to/narscale
> > Yahoo! Groups Links
> >
> >
> >
> >
>
>
> John Buckley
>
> Team in Training Alumnus
>
> 100 mile bike ride for the Leukemia and Lymphoma
> Society
>
> America's Most Beautiful Bike Ride:
> http://www.bikethewest.com/AMBRR.html
>
> "In theory there is no difference between theory and
> practice. In
> practice, however, there is".
>
> Jan van de Snepscheut
>
> The greatest obstacle to discovery is not ignorance
> - it is the illusion
> of knowledge.
> Daniel J. Boorstin
>
>
>
>



      
________________________________________________________________________________\
____
Park yourself in front of a world of choices in alternative vehicles. Visit the
Yahoo! Auto Green Center.
http://autos.yahoo.com/green_center/

To All,

What is the usual way to organize the sections of an NAR Scale  Data pack
(for NARAM) ?

Dave Fitch



************************************** Get a sneak peek of the all-new AOL at
http://discover.aol.com/memed/aolcom30tour


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Hey, guys, one more question--maybe a dumb one, what are those drag
brakes for?  Thats one flight detail I cant seem to find--I know some
sounding rockets stay yogether til staging while others do not. Anyone
know what the sequence was here?
Thanks,
JS

PS: the remainder of the parts were ordered today including a very
healthy bill for FG and Carbon fiber. I'll try to post a few build pics
as things progress.

Cover page with prototype, scale factor, NAR number.
Any notes or special things you want to point out to judges.
Dimensioned drawing/outline documentation.
Color/pattern documentation.
Table of measurments (for Scale events).

I've seen everything from three ring binders to loose pages stuck in
a copy of RotW to mark the page for the documentation.  The
presentation isn't judged as part of the entry,  but it does help if
it's clear what the judges are looking at. Most of my data packets
have been held together with report binders.

Kevin


--- In scaleroc@yahoogroups.com, Ez2cDave@... wrote:
>
> To All,
>
> What is the usual way to organize the sections of an NAR Scale
Data pack
> (for NARAM) ?
>
> Dave Fitch
>
>
>
> ************************************** Get a sneak peek of the all-
new AOL at
> http://discover.aol.com/memed/aolcom30tour
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>

In a message dated 8/17/2007 5:53:25 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time,
denverdoc@... writes:

Hey,  guys, one more question--maybe a dumb one, what are those drag
brakes for?  Thats one flight detail I cant seem to find--I know some
sounding rockets  stay yogether til staging while others do not. Anyone
know what the  sequence was here?
Thanks,
JS


********************************************************************

JS,

My best guess is for Drag Separation of the Nike Booster to allow  the Upper
Stage to coast freely for a pre-determined amount of time before  ignition . .
.

Josh is porbably much more familiar with that configuration  !

Dave Fitch



************************************** Get a sneak peek of the all-new AOL at
http://discover.aol.com/memed/aolcom30tour


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Well I won't post the photos w/o Josh's permission, the brakes look
as if they are securely bolted to the Black Brant igniter pack and
are of t--he same color--in other words, they would be positioned to
slow the Black Brant and hence delay drag sep, not facilitate it.
That's what has me scratching my head.
J

JS- In scaleroc@yahoogroups.com, Ez2cDave@... wrote:
>
>
> In a message dated 8/17/2007 5:53:25 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time,
> denverdoc@... writes:
>
> Hey,  guys, one more question--maybe a dumb one, what are those
drag
> brakes for?  Thats one flight detail I cant seem to find--I know
some
> sounding rockets  stay yogether til staging while others do not.
Anyone
> know what the  sequence was here?
> Thanks,
> JS
>
>
> ********************************************************************
>
> JS,
>
> My best guess is for Drag Separation of the Nike Booster to allow
the Upper
> Stage to coast freely for a pre-determined amount of time before
ignition . .
> .
>
> Josh is porbably much more familiar with that configuration  !
>
> Dave Fitch
>
>
>
> ************************************** Get a sneak peek of the all-
new AOL at
> http://discover.aol.com/memed/aolcom30tour
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>

In a message dated 8/17/2007 9:15:44 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time,
denverdoc@... writes:

Well I  won't post the photos w/o Josh's permission, the brakes look
as if they  are securely bolted to the Black Brant igniter pack and
are of t--he same  color--in other words, they would be positioned to
slow the Black Brant  and hence delay drag sep, not facilitate it.
That's what has me scratching  my head.
J



*******************************************************************

Hmm . .

Hopefully, Josh will respond with some more information  !

Dave Fitch



************************************** Get a sneak peek of the all-new AOL at
http://discover.aol.com/memed/aolcom30tour


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

John, you can post the photos if you wish.  They are from the Black Brant at
Goddard's visitor center.  I would assume the drag brakes are to facilitate drag
separation, but other than the inference of that idea from the fact that they
are "drag brakes," I don't know anything further.

Josh T.
www.meatballrocketry.com

   ----- Original Message -----
   From: John R Smolley
   To: scaleroc@yahoogroups.com
   Sent: Friday, August 17, 2007 9:13 PM
   Subject: [Scaleroc] Re: Nike Black Brant Interstage Detail


   Well I won't post the photos w/o Josh's permission, the brakes look
   as if they are securely bolted to the Black Brant igniter pack and
   are of t--he same color--in other words, they would be positioned to
   slow the Black Brant and hence delay drag sep, not facilitate it.
   That's what has me scratching my head.
   J

   JS- In scaleroc@yahoogroups.com, Ez2cDave@... wrote:
   >
   >
   > In a message dated 8/17/2007 5:53:25 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time,
   > denverdoc@... writes:
   >
   > Hey, guys, one more question--maybe a dumb one, what are those
   drag
   > brakes for? Thats one flight detail I cant seem to find--I know
   some
   > sounding rockets stay yogether til staging while others do not.
   Anyone
   > know what the sequence was here?
   > Thanks,
   > JS
   >
   >
   > ********************************************************************
   >
   > JS,
   >
   > My best guess is for Drag Separation of the Nike Booster to allow
   the Upper
   > Stage to coast freely for a pre-determined amount of time before
   ignition . .
   > .
   >
   > Josh is porbably much more familiar with that configuration !
   >
   > Dave Fitch
   >
   >
   >
   > ************************************** Get a sneak peek of the all-
   new AOL at
   > http://discover.aol.com/memed/aolcom30tour
   >
   >
   > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
   >





[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

On 8/18/07 4:11 AM, "scaleroc@yahoogroups.com" <scaleroc@yahoogroups.com>
wrote:

> The
> presentation isn't judged as part of the entry,  but it does help if
> it's clear what the judges are looking at.

Actually, the data *is* judged in the Scale event that will be flown at
NARAM 50.  See rule 50.12.1 from the Book of Rosy Hue...

James
___________________________
James Duffy
jduffy@...
www.rocket.aero


"Shanghai?  I hear they have a Chinatown there..."

- Keith Richards, 2006

Any other clues about the photo?  Where did you find it?  What year
do you think it was taken?  I'll pass along the info to my friends at
White Sands.

    -John D.

I think this is the source:
     http://www.wsmr-history.org/AirForceMissile.htm

   Looks like a test of a star-tracker guidance platform.  Or, it
could be a laser targeting test.  I suspect the latter, because of
the background mountains and facilities (near the laser test site).

   -John

--- In scaleroc@yahoogroups.com, "John DeMar" <john_demar@...> wrote:
>
>   Any other clues about the photo?  Where did you find it?  What
year
> do you think it was taken?  I'll pass along the info to my friends
at
> White Sands.
>
>    -John D.
>

I see what you are trying to get at-- don't let the paint colors fool you... the
thing just above the drag brakes is the Nike to BBV adapter.  The Black Brant
upperstage itself begins at the base of the narrowest section (where the fins
are attached).  That adapter section falls back and is bolted to the top of the
Nike.

I think the Taurus to BBV adapter (for use with BB XII and [I assume] for BB XI)
is the only one in which the cone of what looks like the adapter is actually an
extension of the upperstage's nozzle (something about high altitude, IIRC). 
Otherwise, as far as I understand, the Black Brant's nozzle begins near where
the fins attach.

Hope that helps.

Josh T.


----- Original Message -----
   From: John R Smolley
   To: scaleroc@yahoogroups.com
   Sent: Friday, August 17, 2007 9:13 PM
   Subject: [Scaleroc] Re: Nike Black Brant Interstage Detail


   Well I won't post the photos w/o Josh's permission, the brakes look
   as if they are securely bolted to the Black Brant igniter pack and
   are of t--he same color--in other words, they would be positioned to
   slow the Black Brant and hence delay drag sep, not facilitate it.
   That's what has me scratching my head.
   J

   JS- In scaleroc@yahoogroups.com, Ez2cDave@... wrote:
   >
   >
   > In a message dated 8/17/2007 5:53:25 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time,
   > denverdoc@... writes:
   >
   > Hey, guys, one more question--maybe a dumb one, what are those
   drag
   > brakes for? Thats one flight detail I cant seem to find--I know
   some
   > sounding rockets stay yogether til staging while others do not.
   Anyone
   > know what the sequence was here?
   > Thanks,
   > JS
   >
   >
   > ********************************************************************
   >
   > JS,
   >
   > My best guess is for Drag Separation of the Nike Booster to allow
   the Upper
   > Stage to coast freely for a pre-determined amount of time before
   ignition . .
   > .
   >
   > Josh is porbably much more familiar with that configuration !
   >
   > Dave Fitch
   >
   >
   >
   > ************************************** Get a sneak peek of the all-
   new AOL at
   > http://discover.aol.com/memed/aolcom30tour
   >
   >
   > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
   >





[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

You are correct about the source, John. The photo is from the WSMR
website, so I suspect that passing it along to your friends there
probably won't help much :)

This photo, and the others there, have been on their site for a couple
of years now. I was able to identify one of their former "What Is
This?" photos for them, and I'm hoping that someone on this list may be
able to identify some of the others.

Being a die-hard scale modeler, I focused only on the rocket itself. I
didn't even think to consider the clues regarding the launch site as
helping to identify the prototype. Guess I'd better go back to The
Mystery of the Dead Cat, eh?

--Kevin--


--- John DeMar <john_demar@...> wrote:

>   I think this is the source:
>     http://www.wsmr-history.org/AirForceMissile.htm
>
>   Looks like a test of a star-tracker guidance platform.  Or, it
> could be a laser targeting test.  I suspect the latter, because of
> the background mountains and facilities (near the laser test site).
>
>   -John
>
> --- In scaleroc@yahoogroups.com, "John DeMar" <john_demar@...> wrote:
> >
> >   Any other clues about the photo?  Where did you find it?  What
> year
> > do you think it was taken?  I'll pass along the info to my friends
> at
> > White Sands.
> >
> >    -John D.
> >
>
>
>



      
________________________________________________________________________________\
____
Park yourself in front of a world of choices in alternative vehicles. Visit the
Yahoo! Auto Green Center.
http://autos.yahoo.com/green_center/

Most people that work there never look at the WSMR history
website.  They don't even pay much attention to the Rocket Garden
when they pass by it every day.

   A dead cat, however, would get their attention! I'll print out the
photo and attach it to one. ;)

   -John DeMar
    NAR 52094, L3

--- In scaleroc@yahoogroups.com, Kevin Wickart <rocketguy_61761@...>
wrote:
>
> You are correct about the source, John. The photo is from the WSMR
> website, so I suspect that passing it along to your friends there
> probably won't help much :)
>
> This photo, and the others there, have been on their site for a
couple
> of years now. I was able to identify one of their former "What Is
> This?" photos for them, and I'm hoping that someone on this list
may be
> able to identify some of the others.
>
> Being a die-hard scale modeler, I focused only on the rocket
itself. I
> didn't even think to consider the clues regarding the launch site
as
> helping to identify the prototype. Guess I'd better go back to The
> Mystery of the Dead Cat, eh?
>
> --Kevin--
>
>
> --- John DeMar <john_demar@...> wrote:
>
> >   I think this is the source:
> >     http://www.wsmr-history.org/AirForceMissile.htm
> >
> >   Looks like a test of a star-tracker guidance platform.  Or, it
> > could be a laser targeting test.  I suspect the latter, because
of
> > the background mountains and facilities (near the laser test
site).
> >
> >   -John
> >
> > --- In scaleroc@yahoogroups.com, "John DeMar" <john_demar@>
wrote:
> > >
> > >   Any other clues about the photo?  Where did you find it?
What
> > year
> > > do you think it was taken?  I'll pass along the info to my
friends
> > at
> > > White Sands.
> > >
> > >    -John D.
> > >

Put in all the required elements.  The order is not important.


On Thu, August 16, 2007 7:35 pm, Ez2cDave@... wrote:
> To All,
>
> What is the usual way to organize the sections of an NAR Scale  Data pack
> (for NARAM) ?
>
> Dave Fitch
>
>
>
> ************************************** Get a sneak peek of the all-new AOL
> at
> http://discover.aol.com/memed/aolcom30tour
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
>
> Don't forget to check out NARScale's "official" web page.
> Go to http://welcome.to/narscale
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>


John Buckley

Team in Training Alumnus

100 mile bike ride for the Leukemia and Lymphoma Society

America's Most Beautiful Bike Ride: http://www.bikethewest.com/AMBRR.html

"In theory there is no difference between theory and practice. In
practice, however, there is".

Jan van de Snepscheut

The greatest obstacle to discovery is not ignorance - it is the illusion
of knowledge.
Daniel J. Boorstin

In a message dated 8/20/2007 1:19:50 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time,
jbuckley@... writes:

Put in  all the required elements. The order is not important.


*************************************************************************

John,

Thanks . . . The Order was my main concern !

Dave Fitch



************************************** Get a sneak peek of the all-new AOL at
http://discover.aol.com/memed/aolcom30tour


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Josh,

Well I think that clears it up, leaving one last question; assuming
that drag sep occurred early after burnout, anyone know what the
interstage delay for the BBVIII flights was? If it falls within a
safe range I'd like to try to get that right as well in 1/2 scale.
JS


--- In scaleroc@yahoogroups.com, "Josh Tschirhart" <drumn4j@...>
wrote:
>
> I see what you are trying to get at-- don't let the paint colors
fool you... the thing just above the drag brakes is the Nike to BBV
adapter.  The Black Brant upperstage itself begins at the base of the
narrowest section (where the fins are attached).  That adapter
section falls back and is bolted to the top of the Nike.
>
> I think the Taurus to BBV adapter (for use with BB XII and [I
assume] for BB XI) is the only one in which the cone of what looks
like the adapter is actually an extension of the upperstage's nozzle
(something about high altitude, IIRC).  Otherwise, as far as I
understand, the Black Brant's nozzle begins near where the fins
attach.
>
> Hope that helps.
>
> Josh T.
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
>   From: John R Smolley
>   To: scaleroc@yahoogroups.com
>   Sent: Friday, August 17, 2007 9:13 PM
>   Subject: [Scaleroc] Re: Nike Black Brant Interstage Detail
>
>
>   Well I won't post the photos w/o Josh's permission, the brakes
look
>   as if they are securely bolted to the Black Brant igniter pack
and
>   are of t--he same color--in other words, they would be positioned
to
>   slow the Black Brant and hence delay drag sep, not facilitate it.
>   That's what has me scratching my head.
>   J
>
>   JS- In scaleroc@yahoogroups.com, Ez2cDave@ wrote:
>   >
>   >
>   > In a message dated 8/17/2007 5:53:25 A.M. Eastern Daylight
Time,
>   > denverdoc@ writes:
>   >
>   > Hey, guys, one more question--maybe a dumb one, what are those
>   drag
>   > brakes for? Thats one flight detail I cant seem to find--I know
>   some
>   > sounding rockets stay yogether til staging while others do not.
>   Anyone
>   > know what the sequence was here?
>   > Thanks,
>   > JS
>   >
>   >
>   >
********************************************************************
>   >
>   > JS,
>   >
>   > My best guess is for Drag Separation of the Nike Booster to
allow
>   the Upper
>   > Stage to coast freely for a pre-determined amount of time
before
>   ignition . .
>   > .
>   >
>   > Josh is porbably much more familiar with that configuration !
>   >
>   > Dave Fitch
>   >
>   >
>   >
>   > ************************************** Get a sneak peek of the
all-
>   new AOL at
>   > http://discover.aol.com/memed/aolcom30tour
>   >
>   >
>   > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>   >
>
>
>
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>

Oh yeah James, you have to have the required data, but my point was
that as long as it's there and clear as to what the judges are
looking at, it doesn't have to be anything super fancy.

Sweat about the model, as long as you have your required
documentation, don't sweat too hard about the data pack.

kj

--- In scaleroc@yahoogroups.com, James Duffy <jduffy@...> wrote:
>
> On 8/18/07 4:11 AM, "scaleroc@yahoogroups.com"
<scaleroc@yahoogroups.com>
> wrote:
>
> > The
> > presentation isn't judged as part of the entry,  but it does help
if
> > it's clear what the judges are looking at.
>
> Actually, the data *is* judged in the Scale event that will be
flown at
> NARAM 50.  See rule 50.12.1 from the Book of Rosy Hue...
>
> James
> ___________________________
> James Duffy
> jduffy@...
> www.rocket.aero
>
>
> "Shanghai?  I hear they have a Chinatown there..."
>
> - Keith Richards, 2006
>

I don't have anything on the BBVIII, but looking
through RoTW most of the 2 stage Nike boosted rockets
list coast times of between 8-20 seconds.  With the
larger diameter on the upper stage of the BBVIII I
would say it would be on the low end of this time
period, but that's just a guess.

Steve

--- John R Smolley <denverdoc@...> wrote:

>
> Josh,
>
> Well I think that clears it up, leaving one last
> question; assuming
> that drag sep occurred early after burnout, anyone
> know what the
> interstage delay for the BBVIII flights was? If it
> falls within a
> safe range I'd like to try to get that right as well
> in 1/2 scale.
> JS
>
>
> --- In scaleroc@yahoogroups.com, "Josh Tschirhart"
> <drumn4j@...>
> wrote:
> >
> > I see what you are trying to get at-- don't let
> the paint colors
> fool you... the thing just above the drag brakes is
> the Nike to BBV
> adapter.  The Black Brant upperstage itself begins
> at the base of the
> narrowest section (where the fins are attached).
> That adapter
> section falls back and is bolted to the top of the
> Nike.
> >
> > I think the Taurus to BBV adapter (for use with BB
> XII and [I
> assume] for BB XI) is the only one in which the cone
> of what looks
> like the adapter is actually an extension of the
> upperstage's nozzle
> (something about high altitude, IIRC).  Otherwise,
> as far as I
> understand, the Black Brant's nozzle begins near
> where the fins
> attach.
> >
> > Hope that helps.
> >
> > Josh T.
> >
> >
> > ----- Original Message -----
> >   From: John R Smolley
> >   To: scaleroc@yahoogroups.com
> >   Sent: Friday, August 17, 2007 9:13 PM
> >   Subject: [Scaleroc] Re: Nike Black Brant
> Interstage Detail
> >
> >
> >   Well I won't post the photos w/o Josh's
> permission, the brakes
> look
> >   as if they are securely bolted to the Black
> Brant igniter pack
> and
> >   are of t--he same color--in other words, they
> would be positioned
> to
> >   slow the Black Brant and hence delay drag sep,
> not facilitate it.
> >   That's what has me scratching my head.
> >   J
> >
> >   JS- In scaleroc@yahoogroups.com, Ez2cDave@
> wrote:
> >   >
> >   >
> >   > In a message dated 8/17/2007 5:53:25 A.M.
> Eastern Daylight
> Time,
> >   > denverdoc@ writes:
> >   >
> >   > Hey, guys, one more question--maybe a dumb
> one, what are those
> >   drag
> >   > brakes for? Thats one flight detail I cant
> seem to find--I know
> >   some
> >   > sounding rockets stay yogether til staging
> while others do not.
> >   Anyone
> >   > know what the sequence was here?
> >   > Thanks,
> >   > JS
> >   >
> >   >
> >   >
>
********************************************************************
> >   >
> >   > JS,
> >   >
> >   > My best guess is for Drag Separation of the
> Nike Booster to
> allow
> >   the Upper
> >   > Stage to coast freely for a pre-determined
> amount of time
> before
> >   ignition . .
> >   > .
> >   >
> >   > Josh is porbably much more familiar with that
> configuration !
> >   >
> >   > Dave Fitch
> >   >
> >   >
> >   >
> >   > ************************************** Get a
> sneak peek of the
> all-
> >   new AOL at
> >   > http://discover.aol.com/memed/aolcom30tour
> >   >
> >   >
> >   > [Non-text portions of this message have been
> removed]
> >   >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > [Non-text portions of this message have been
> removed]
> >
>
>
>




________________________________________________________________________________\
____
Moody friends. Drama queens. Your life? Nope! - their life, your story. Play
Sims Stories at Yahoo! Games.
http://sims.yahoo.com/

I apologize for high-jacking this thread, but if you have access to the July 23,
2007 issue of Aviation Week, there is a picture of the Talos/Castor sounding
rocket used for the HyCause hypersonic experiment. Of interest is a flat plate
extending out from the front of the Talos.  In front of that on the interstage
is a trio of what appear to be spin rockets.  One would imagine the same set up
180 degrees apart.  Anyone have any additional information on this vehicle?

Chas


To: scaleroc@...: denverdoc@...: Tue, 21 Aug 2007
11:16:53 +0000Subject: [Scaleroc] Re: Nike Black Brant Interstage Detail




Josh,Well I think that clears it up, leaving one last question; assuming that
drag sep occurred early after burnout, anyone know what the interstage delay for
the BBVIII flights was? If it falls within a safe range I'd like to try to get
that right as well in 1/2 scale.JS--- In scaleroc@yahoogroups.com, "Josh
Tschirhart" <drumn4j@...> wrote:>> I see what you are trying to get at-- don't
let the paint colors fool you... the thing just above the drag brakes is the
Nike to BBV adapter. The Black Brant upperstage itself begins at the base of the
narrowest section (where the fins are attached). That adapter section falls back
and is bolted to the top of the Nike. > > I think the Taurus to BBV adapter (for
use with BB XII and [I assume] for BB XI) is the only one in which the cone of
what looks like the adapter is actually an extension of the upperstage's nozzle
(something about high altitude, IIRC). Otherwise, as far as I understand, the
Black Brant's nozzle begins near where the fins attach.> > Hope that helps.> >
Josh T.> > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: John R Smolley > To:
scaleroc@yahoogroups.com > Sent: Friday, August 17, 2007 9:13 PM> Subject:
[Scaleroc] Re: Nike Black Brant Interstage Detail> > > Well I won't post the
photos w/o Josh's permission, the brakes look > as if they are securely bolted
to the Black Brant igniter pack and > are of t--he same color--in other words,
they would be positioned to > slow the Black Brant and hence delay drag sep, not
facilitate it. > That's what has me scratching my head.> J> > JS- In
scaleroc@yahoogroups.com, Ez2cDave@ wrote:> >> > > > In a message dated
8/17/2007 5:53:25 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time, > > denverdoc@ writes:> > > > Hey,
guys, one more question--maybe a dumb one, what are those > drag > > brakes for?
Thats one flight detail I cant seem to find--I know > some > > sounding rockets
stay yogether til staging while others do not. > Anyone > > know what the
sequence was here? > > Thanks,> > JS> > > > > >
********************************************************************> > > > JS,>
> > > My best guess is for Drag Separation of the Nike Booster to allow > the
Upper > > Stage to coast freely for a pre-determined amount of time before >
ignition . . > > .> > > > Josh is porbably much more familiar with that
configuration !> > > > Dave Fitch> > > > > > > >
************************************** Get a sneak peek of the all-> new AOL at
> > http://discover.aol.com/memed/aolcom30tour> > > > > > [Non-text portions of
this message have been removed]> >> > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message
have been removed]>


_________________________________________________________________
News, entertainment and everything you care about at Live.com. Get it now!
http://www.live.com/getstarted.aspx

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Hi Chas:

I was going to post a similar statement on ScaleRoc, but had no
time... Now that you have I will put my two bits in that I have
learned:

-This is part of a series of annual flights by DARPA (Defense
Advanced Research Projects Agency) along with Australian DSTO, and
University of Queensland (Australia): Both are defense research
agencies of US and Australia with much interest in the world of
hypersonics. Australia has been involved in hypersonic research for
years (on and off since the 1960's).

-The missile is basically the "grandson" of the Astrobee 1500 rocket
Astrobee 1500 --> SuperChief ---> Talos-Castor).

-Original photos (pretty hi resolution) can be found at the DARPA
site. There is some info at Australian:  Here are the links for
downloading the photos and other information (one photo is the same
photo as in Aviation Week, but not cropped):

http://www.darpa.mil/body/news/2007/index.asp  (scroll down to "press
release 6-20-2007", then click on hyperlinks to "photos"
and/or "video"). This will bring up 4 photos and a video of the launch

  www.dsto.defence.gov.au/attachments/7806%20HyCAUSE%20Fact%
20SheetB.pdf   This is a cute (+3 megabyte) pdf fact sheet about the
same launch by Austrualian DSTO. Lot's of good information on the
project.

-Another launch occured last year or the year before with another
missile system (IFRC Terrier-Black Brant?). Somewhere (I forgot
where) there are a dozen photos of this flight. This current launch
was the next step in this joint US/Australian program.

-As hypersonics have had a revival in the defense world,  Great
Britain plans do a similar project (probably fly out of Australia
too!) in forthcoming years, using a sounding rocket as a launch
vehicle for the test.

Because of the defense R&D nature of the program, I doubt anybody can
get drawing/info on this thing. It's a shame as it a pretty cool
looking rocket, and has the right size/shape for a 2 stage model.

Hope this helps

Regards,

Al
--- In scaleroc@yahoogroups.com, charles russell <Crussell51@...>
wrote:
>
>
> I apologize for high-jacking this thread, but if you have access to
the July 23, 2007 issue of Aviation Week, there is a picture of the
Talos/Castor sounding rocket used for the HyCause hypersonic
experiment. Of interest is a flat plate extending out from the front
of the Talos.  In front of that on the interstage is a trio of what
appear to be spin rockets.  One would imagine the same set up 180
degrees apart.  Anyone have any additional information on this
vehicle?
>
> Chas
>
>
> To: scaleroc@...: denverdoc@...: Tue, 21 Aug 2007 11:16:53
+0000Subject: [Scaleroc] Re: Nike Black Brant Interstage Detail
>
>
>
>
> Josh,Well I think that clears it up, leaving one last question;
assuming that drag sep occurred early after burnout, anyone know what
the interstage delay for the BBVIII flights was? If it falls within a
safe range I'd like to try to get that right as well in 1/2 scale.JS--
- In scaleroc@yahoogroups.com, "Josh Tschirhart" <drumn4j@> wrote:>>
I see what you are trying to get at-- don't let the paint colors fool
you... the thing just above the drag brakes is the Nike to BBV
adapter. The Black Brant upperstage itself begins at the base of the
narrowest section (where the fins are attached). That adapter section
falls back and is bolted to the top of the Nike. > > I think the
Taurus to BBV adapter (for use with BB XII and [I assume] for BB XI)
is the only one in which the cone of what looks like the adapter is
actually an extension of the upperstage's nozzle (something about
high altitude, IIRC). Otherwise, as far as I understand, the Black
Brant's nozzle begins near where the fins attach.> > Hope that
helps.> > Josh T.> > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: John R
Smolley > To: scaleroc@yahoogroups.com > Sent: Friday, August 17,
2007 9:13 PM> Subject: [Scaleroc] Re: Nike Black Brant Interstage
Detail> > > Well I won't post the photos w/o Josh's permission, the
brakes look > as if they are securely bolted to the Black Brant
igniter pack and > are of t--he same color--in other words, they
would be positioned to > slow the Black Brant and hence delay drag
sep, not facilitate it. > That's what has me scratching my head.> J>
> JS- In scaleroc@yahoogroups.com, Ez2cDave@ wrote:> >> > > > In a
message dated 8/17/2007 5:53:25 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time, > >
denverdoc@ writes:> > > > Hey, guys, one more question--maybe a dumb
one, what are those > drag > > brakes for? Thats one flight detail I
cant seem to find--I know > some > > sounding rockets stay yogether
til staging while others do not. > Anyone > > know what the sequence
was here? > > Thanks,> > JS> > > > > >
********************************************************************>
> > > JS,> > > > My best guess is for Drag Separation of the Nike
Booster to allow > the Upper > > Stage to coast freely for a pre-
determined amount of time before > ignition . . > > .> > > > Josh is
porbably much more familiar with that configuration !> > > > Dave
Fitch> > > > > > > > ************************************** Get a
sneak peek of the all-> new AOL at > >
http://discover.aol.com/memed/aolcom30tour> > > > > > [Non-text
portions of this message have been removed]> >> > > > > > [Non-text
portions of this message have been removed]>
>
>
> _________________________________________________________________
> News, entertainment and everything you care about at Live.com. Get
it now!
> http://www.live.com/getstarted.aspx
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>