On Sun, 2009-12-20 at 11:19 -0800, Bambi TBNL wrote:
> Maria Beatriz la Mora aka Khalillah bint Temur


Um....wow. Translating the entire New Testament into Klingon, which I
assume is what I am reading above because it contains the words "Maria"
and "Khallillah", is a very impressive work of scholarship. :-)

(Justin now runs -- quickly -- to duck behind the nearest cover!)

--
()xxxx[]::::::::::::::::::>                  <::::::::::::::::::[]xxxx()
Maistor Justinos Tekton called Justin (Scott Courtney)
Gules, on a bezant a fleam sable and on a chief dovetailed Or two keys
fesswise reversed sable.

justin@...                              http://4th.com/sca/justin/

you betcha!!!
everytime I get to wear a 16thc corset...my shoulders breath a sigh of
reliefe.Also even 18thc corsets were very utilitarian. I used to demonstrate
18thc houskeeping for ahistoric house and quite frankly...I could not have done
what I did if I had not been wearing what ammounted to a virtual weight
belt...my corset at all times. just hauling water from the well.......
 Bambi (To be named ater) TBNL


I am made for great things by GOD
and walk with Pride!!!!
Walladah bint al Mustakfi c 1100ad
see me dance
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7HMtOoXtMs0




________________________________
From: Stefan li Rous <stefanlirous@...>
To: SCA Newcomers list <scanewcomers@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Fri, December 18, 2009 7:13:39 PM
Subject: [SCA Newcomers] corsets

 
Bambi said:
<<< I actually had to cut the pattern down cause the muslin proved
the fit did not take into account the squishing down that occurs when
a real corset does its job >>>

It occurred to me that many women here (and I suspect most guys) may
know little about corsets, especially the Elizabethan and Tudor ones.
There is a BIG difference between those and the ones of the Victorian
era. The latter were notorious for rearranging organs and creating a
new shape. Those of our period were not worn that way. I've heard many
women, especially those well-endowed, saying that they find a period
corset more comfortable than a modern bra.

For more comments and information on period corsets, see this file in
the Florilegium:

corsets-msg (64K) 5/ 6/07 Tudor and Elizabethan corsets.
making them.
http://www.florileg ium.org/files/ CLOTHING/ corsets-msg. html

Stefan
--------
THLord Stefan li Rous Barony of Bryn Gwlad Kingdom of Ansteorra
Mark S. Harris Austin, Texas StefanliRous@ austin.rr. com
**** See Stefan's Florilegium files at: http://www.florilegium.org ****







[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

actually
I suppose  I should own up to my registered SCA name....sigh so here
goes....your only gonna see it once on here anytime soon!!
Lady  Maria Beatriz la Mora aka Khalillah bint Temur
Companion of the PearlBambi (To be named later) TBNL


I am made for great things by GOD
and walk with Pride!!!!
Walladah bint al Mustakfi c 1100ad
see me dance
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7HMtOoXtMs0




________________________________
From: Justinos Tekton called Justin <justin@...>
To: scanewcomers@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Tue, December 15, 2009 9:54:56 AM
Subject: Re: [SCA Newcomers] Fabric question...

 
On Sun, 2009-12-13 at 13:45 -0800, Bambi TBNL wrote:
> Bambi (To be named later) TBNL

{chuckle}

"You are in the SCA. You have the right to remain modern. Should you
choose to give up this right, anything medieval you do can and will be
entered in an A&S display. If you want a name but cannot afford one, or
have not chosen one within a reasonable period of time, a name will be
appointed for you at no cost. Do you understand these rights?"

--
()xxxx[]:::: ::::::::: :::::> <::::::::::: :::::::[] xxxx()
Maistor Justinos Tekton called Justin (Scott Courtney)
Gules, on a bezant a fleam sable and on a chief dovetailed Or two keys
fesswise reversed sable.

justin@... http://4th.com/sca/justin/







[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Bambi said:
<<< I actually had to cut the pattern down cause the muslin proved
the fit did not take into account the squishing down that occurs when
a real corset does its job >>>

It occurred to me that many women here (and I suspect most guys) may
know little about corsets, especially the Elizabethan and Tudor ones.
There is a BIG difference between those and the ones of the Victorian
era. The latter were notorious for rearranging organs and creating a
new shape. Those of our period were not worn that way. I've heard many
women, especially those well-endowed, saying that they find a period
corset more comfortable than a modern bra.

For more comments and information on period corsets, see this file in
the Florilegium:

corsets-msg       (64K)  5/ 6/07  Tudor and Elizabethan corsets.
making them.
http://www.florilegium.org/files/CLOTHING/corsets-msg.html

Stefan
--------
THLord Stefan li Rous    Barony of Bryn Gwlad    Kingdom of Ansteorra
     Mark S. Harris           Austin, Texas          StefanliRous@...
**** See Stefan's Florilegium files at:  http://www.florilegium.org ****

-----Original Message-----
From: scanewcomers@yahoogroups.com [mailto:scanewcomers@yahoogroups.com] On
Behalf Of Bambi TBNL
Sent: Friday, 18 December 2009 1:04 PM
To: scanewcomers@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [SCA Newcomers] patterns and clothing forms

I know I am really going out on a limb here but...has anybody sen the newest
simplicity tudor for women patten....not too shabby!!!!actually is is in 2
patterns...one is outer clothing and one is underpinnings n such...but
really , it does not suck considering the stuff that has come out before and
the sizing is actually quite generous...I just made it for someone.and the 
tudor corset alone really worked surprisingly well ..I actually had to cut
the pattern down cause the muslin proved  the fit did not take into accont
the squishing down that occurs when a real corsett does its job!!!lol
 Bambi (To be named ater) TBNL


----------------------------------------------------------------------------
-------

Simplicity has been coming out with some reasonable patterns recently.
Especially if you do 18th/19th century as well as SCA (but then the research
is much easier for 18th & 19th centuries as there are so many extant
garments, after years of making 16th century clothing it felt like cheating
when I researched 19th century stuff). Ease in garments that are not
supposed to have ease is a recurring problem in Simplicity's historic line
(they had the same problem with the Civil War corset patterns), the pattern
designer comes up with a corset pattern and then Simplicity adds ease so a
corset ends up being bigger than the measurements the envelope says it will
fit!

Simplicity 2589 (http://www.simplicity.com/p-1547-costumes.aspx) is better
than anything else I've seen for that period from the major pattern
companies but unfortunately that's not really saying much. I think its major
flaw is that it's designed to cash in on The Other Boleyn Girl, so it
recreates the flawed costumes of that movie (e.g. most Tudor portraits don't
show the skirt pleated in front, it's smooth in front and pleated at the
back, though there are a couple of 1550s-1560s gowns with pleats that are
moving closer to the front as it transitions into something more like an
Elizabethan style). For a beginner it's much better than most people wear in
their first few years in the SCA but it really reflects theories on
construction that are about 20 years old (though my first Tudor gown was
based on the same research and I still wear it occasionally, when the
weather and occasion call for 8yds of velvet ;D). If you're serious about
Tudor get a copy of The Tudor Tailor for the latest research (you can order
it direct from the authors, http://www.tudortailor.com/, or it's also
available from other online bookshops), I have yet to hear of anyone who has
regretted the investment.
From what I can see the one really bright point in this pattern is the
French Hood Most other French Hood patterns I've seen look like a sun visor
turned backwards and tend to stick straight up in the air, this one has a
really nice looking period silhouette (although it looks like the version in
the photo used buckram that was too light weight, so it developed wrinkles)
and it's good to see a pattern with the complete ensemble not just the
dress.

Personally I would be happier to see the underwear pattern, 2621
(http://www.simplicity.com/p-1576-costumes.aspx), combined with the
Elizabethan pattern, 3782 (http://www.simplicity.com/p-2009-costumes.aspx),
as the best information we have at the moment suggests that corsets (as
opposed to an underdress with a stiffened bodice, which gives a similar
silhouette) probably didn't turn up until around the 1580s or 1590s (it
basically required somebody to have the brainwave that now bodices are boned
they will stay in place without the weight of the skirt holding them down
and we can make the bodice and skirt as separate garments). And overall I am
happier with the Elizabethan pattern than the Tudor pattern (it has some
minor inaccuracies I would nitpick, e.g. cross lacing instead of spiral
lacing, but nothing major).

Note my assessment of the Tudor patterns is based on looking at the images
online I haven't got a copy of this pattern yet (though I have got a copy of
the Elizabethan pattern) Once I have got a copy I may reassess my opinion of
the pattern.

Alright that is enough of a novel for now (can you tell that Tudor is my
passion ;P) if you have more time than money it's possible to improve this
pattern, but it's probably not a project for a beginner unless you're good
at visualising how two dimensional shapes will look in three dimensions.
It's going to be significantly easier to buy a good pattern to start with.

Yours in service,
-----------------------------------------
Elizabeth Walpole   | Elizabeth Beaumont
Canberra, Australia | Politarchopolis, Lochac
http://magpiecostumer.110mb.com/

-----Original Message-----
From: scanewcomers@yahoogroups.com [mailto:scanewcomers@yahoogroups.com] On
Behalf Of Bambi TBNL
Sent: Friday, 18 December 2009 1:04 PM
To: scanewcomers@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [SCA Newcomers] patterns and clothing forms

I know I am really going out on a limb here but...has anybody sen the newest
simplicity tudor for women patten....not too shabby!!!!actually is is in 2
patterns...one is outer clothing and one is underpinnings n such...but
really , it does not suck considering the stuff that has come out before and
the sizing is actually quite generous...I just made it for someone.and the 
tudor corset alone really worked surprisingly well ..I actually had to cut
the pattern down cause the muslin proved  the fit did not take into accont
the squishing down that occurs when a real corsett does its job!!!lol
 Bambi (To be named ater) TBNL


----------------------------------------------------------------------------
-------

Simplicity has been coming out with some reasonable patterns recently.
Especially if you do 18th/19th century as well as SCA (but then the research
is much easier for 18th & 19th centuries as there are so many extant
garments, after years of making 16th century clothing it felt like cheating
when I researched 19th century stuff). Ease in garments that are not
supposed to have ease is a recurring problem in Simplicity's historic line
(they had the same problem with the Civil War corset patterns), the pattern
designer comes up with a corset pattern and then Simplicity adds ease so a
corset ends up being bigger than the measurements the envelope says it will
fit!

Simplicity 2589 (http://www.simplicity.com/p-1547-costumes.aspx) is better
than anything else I've seen for that period from the major pattern
companies but unfortunately that's not really saying much. I think its major
flaw is that it's designed to cash in on The Other Boleyn Girl, so it
recreates the flawed costumes of that movie (e.g. most Tudor portraits don't
show the skirt pleated in front, it's smooth in front and pleated at the
back, though there are a couple of 1550s-1560s gowns with pleats that are
moving closer to the front as fashion is transitioning into what we would
call an Elizabethan style). For a beginner it's much better than most people
wear in their first few years in the SCA but it really reflects theories on
construction that are about 20 years old (though my first Tudor gown was
based on the same research and I still wear it occasionally, when the
weather and occasion call for 8yds of velvet ;D). From what I can see the
one really bright point in this pattern is the French Hood Most other French
Hood patterns I've seen look like a sunvisor turned backwards and tend to
stick straight up in the air, this one has a really nice looking period
silhouette (although it looks like the version in the photo used buckram
that was too light weight, so it developed wrinkles) and it's good to see a
pattern with the complete ensemble not just the dress. If you're serious
about Tudor get a copy of The Tudor Tailor for the latest research (you can
order it direct from the authors, http://www.tudortailor.com/, or it's also
available from other online bookshops), I have yet to hear of anyone who has
regretted the investment, if you can't afford it right now ask people in
your area, just about anyone who is serious about 16th century costuming
will have a copy.

Personally I would be happier to see the underwear pattern, 2621
(http://www.simplicity.com/p-1576-costumes.aspx), combined with the
Elizabethan pattern, 3782 (http://www.simplicity.com/p-2009-costumes.aspx),
as the best information we have at the moment suggests that corsets (as
opposed to an underdress with a stiffened bodice, which gives a similar
silhouette) probably didn't turn up until around the 1580s or 1590s (it
basically required somebody to have the brainwave that now bodices are boned
they will stay in place without the weight of the skirt holding them down
and we can make the bodice and skirt as separate garments). And overall I am
happier with the Elizabethan pattern than the Tudor pattern (it has some
minor inaccuracies I would nitpick, e.g. cross lacing instead of spiral
lacing, but nothing major).

Note my assessment of the Tudor patterns is based on looking at the images
online I haven't got a copy of this pattern yet (though I have got a copy of
the Elizabethan pattern) Once I have got a copy I may reassess my opinion of
the pattern.

Alright that is enough of a novel for now (can you tell that Tudor is my
passion ;P) if you really have more time than money this pattern can be
improved, but it will be a lot of work, and it is probably not a project for
somebody who isn't good at visualising how pattern shapes will work when
they are on a body.

Yours in Service,
-----------------------------------------
Elizabeth Walpole   | Elizabeth Beaumont
Canberra, Australia | Politarchopolis, Lochac
http://magpiecostumer.110mb.com/

Justin asked:

On Tue, 2009-12-15 at 16:08 +0000, Labhaoise wrote:
> Historically it was VERY labor intensive to produce, check out how
> linen is made and think!

Now that is an interesting statement, at least to someone like me who is
not a fabric maven.

Can you elaborate a bit on this, for the benefit of the novice sewing
folks like me? I know a little about cotton processing, but nothing at
all about linen.
-------------

In rough outline:
1)  Clean stalks of debris.

2)  Soak for a long time to soften the outer "skin."

3)  Let dry.

4)  Crush in a "flax break," which looks like a giant scissors-thing
of wood, several parallel "blades" that fit together like:

                            |   |   |   |
                          |   |   |   |   |

5)  Pick bits of stem out of flax and comb through very deadly-looking
          and SHARP points of the "flax comb" fastened to the end of
          the "flax break."  DO NOT TOUCH POINTS!  IT DOES DRAW BLOOD!

NOTE:  Tangled stuff caught in the comb is called "tow," which is
          where you get "tow-headed."  It can be picked out and combed
          also but is more work.  I don't know if you can use it for
rope.

6)  Place combed flax on distaff for spinning.

7)  Repeat 4-6 as long as necessary, or until you are out of flax.

8)  Spin fibre, using water to dampen fingertips and fibre so it
          sticks together more easily.

9)  Weave into fabric.

This is from the following file. There is more detailed information on
processing flax and linen and working with linen in this file.
linen-msg         (60K)  1/16/08  Period and modern linen cloth.
Sources. Care
http://www.florilegium.org/files/TEXTILES/linen-msg.html

For even more detailed information on linen and flax, check some of
the books reviewed in this file such as:
"LINEN, HAND SPINNING AND WEAVING,
by Patricia Baines,
B.T. Batsford Ltd. London
4 Fitzhardinge Street
London W1H 0AH
First Published 1989
ISBN 0-934026-52-1
Distributed in North America by
Interweave Press, Inc.
306 North Washington Ave.
Loveland, Colorado 80537

This book has history, background, illustrations,
and copious information on everything from
growing, harvesting, processing, spinning, dyeing
and weaving flax into linen.  I highly recommend it,
and personally don't know of a better book on this
subject."

Stefan
--------
THLord Stefan li Rous    Barony of Bryn Gwlad    Kingdom of Ansteorra
     Mark S. Harris           Austin, Texas          StefanliRous@...
**** See Stefan's Florilegium files at:  http://www.florilegium.org ****

I know I am really going out on a limb here but...has anybody sen the newest
simplicity tudor for women patten....not too shabby!!!!actually is is in 2
patterns...one is outer clothing and one is underpinnings n such...but really ,
it does not suck considering the stuff that has come out before and the sizing
is actually quite generous...I just made it for someone.and the  tudor corset
alone really worked surprisingly well ..I actually had to cut the pattern down
cause the muslin proved  the fit did not take into accont the squishing
down that occurs when a real corsett does its job!!!lol
 Bambi (To be named ater) TBNL


I am made for great things by GOD
and walk with Pride!!!!
Walladah bint al Mustakfi c 1100ad
see me dance
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7HMtOoXtMs0




________________________________
From: Stefan li Rous <stefanlirous@...>
To: SCA Newcomers list <scanewcomers@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Tue, December 15, 2009 11:41:44 PM
Subject: [SCA Newcomers] patterns and clothing forms

 
Elizabeth commented:
<<< It's also a good idea to invest in good patterns from reputable
companies
e.g. Margo Anderson http://www.margospatterns.com/ & The Tudor Tailor
http://www.tudortailor.com/tailorsshop.htm for 16th century (I'm sure
there
are others for earlier periods) >>>

Thanks for the suggested pattern sources. I will add them to this
file. Perhaps the comments and reviews here might also help:
patterns-msg (86K) 1/ 9/08 Sources for clothing patterns.
Altering mundane patterns.
http://www.florilegium.org/files/CLOTHING/patterns-msg.html

<<< or learn how to create your own patterns the
period way by draping fabric on a body (a duct tape double will come in
handy if you want anything fitted) >>>

clothng-forms- msg (22K) 3/24/06 Commercial and homemade clothing
forms.
http://www.florilegium.org/files/TEXTILES/clothng-forms-msg.html

Stefan
--------
THLord Stefan li Rous Barony of Bryn Gwlad Kingdom of Ansteorra
Mark S. Harris Austin, Texas StefanliRous@ austin.rr. com
**** See Stefan's Florilegium files at: http://www.florilegium.org ****







[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Hey Judith your pottery is beautiful!!!  I sent you a freind request on
facebook.
 
Cristina mka Kristen

--- On Tue, 12/15/09, Judith Epstein <judith@...> wrote:


From: Judith Epstein <judith@...>
Subject: [SCA Newcomers] My pottery
To: sca-middle@..., MedievalEncampments@yahoogroups.com,
scanewcomers@yahoogroups.com
Cc: "Albrecht Waldfurster" <albrecht.waldfurster@...>
Date: Tuesday, December 15, 2009, 11:22 AM


 



I'll be posting the images to my file on the Medieval Encampments group on Yahoo
as well, but just in case not everyone is a member there, here are the images on
Facebook. If ONE person will let me know if you can't see the images, that'd be
great.

http://www.facebook .com/album. php?aid=2042875& id=1107234152& l=ada9513730

My goal with the pottery is to have a fully equipped camp in terms of cooking,
serving, and eating. Ultimately I want to be able to have, say, a dozen people
over for meals in my camp and be able to serve them all in my own pottery. I'd
also like to eventually sell some of my pottery in order to support my pottery
habit, because it's not cheap to get studio time, clay, glazes, and tools to
work with.
-=-=-=-=-=-= -=-=-=-=- =-=-=-=-= -=-=-=-=- =-=-=-=-= -=-=-=-=- =-=-=-=-= -=-=-
D'vorah, mka Judith Epstein
Master Albrecht Waldfurster' s Egg
Middle Kingdom, Midlands, Ayreton, Tree-Girt-Sea (Chicago, IL)
judith@ipstenu. org
-=-=-=-=-=-= -=-=-=-=- =-=-=-=-= -=-=-=-=- =-=-=-=-= -=-=-=-=- =-=-=-=-= -=-=-











[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

My understanding only....

First is the length of the staple(fiber), linen fibers are quite long, as much
as four or five feet in length. Now, we CUT them to cotton lengths, so the same
equipment can work it; historically worked as it came.. Cotton staple is short,
modern no more than two inches, and that is by genetic selection for color,
length, hand, and in optimal conditons.

Linen is a rough/sticky fiber, and "willingly" works into a thread, cotton is a
smooth/ribbonlike fiber, and needs coaxing.

Linen uses the entire plant, yes, it has to be cut, rotted, beaten, etc... but
it is pull the plant, and work, not to subject to pests and disease.... cotton
uses only part of the seed pod, and can only be harvested at the end of a
successful season, but plucking the bolls(seedpods) individually from within
each thorny plant...

That being said, I would probably have stayed in old skins! With linen I always
think, who figured all this out... cotton, I can see the lovely soft bolls, but
it is like making something from milkweed!
Labhaoise

--- In scanewcomers@yahoogroups.com, Justinos Tekton called Justin <justin@...>
wrote:
> Now that is an interesting statement, at least to someone like me who is
> not a fabric maven.
>
> Can you elaborate a bit on this, for the benefit of the novice sewing
> folks like me? I know a little about cotton processing, but nothing at
> all about linen.

Justinos Tekton called Justin wrote:
[...]
>
> Can you elaborate a bit on this, for the benefit of the novice sewing
> folks like me? I know a little about cotton processing, but nothing at
> all about linen.

Linen processing is quite labor intensive. Once the flax is grown, it has to be
harvested by hand - because it is to be pulled up by the root. The plant stalks
are then stacked together /\ (kind of like that) to do the initial drying. Once
the plants have dried, they can be "rippled" to collect the seed pods for next
year's harvest. After rippling, the flax has to be "retted" to separate the
tough outer casing from the strands that eventually become linen threads. There
are two ways of retting - either in a pond (or stream) or "dew-ret" where the
plants are left on the ground to let the dew settle. The pond/stream retting is
the quicker way, although I've done dew-retting (takes about 6-8 weeks). Once
the retting process is done, the plants have to be dried again.

Once dry, the plants need to be pounded, scutched then heckled before they are
usable for spinning.

Penelope Walton Rogers explains the process more fully in her "Cloth and
Clothing in Early Anglo-Saxon England: AD 450-700" pages 17-21.

Finnseach
Dernehealde
--
"I'm buying this fleece/fiber now in case I have an emergency... you know,
sickness, flood, injury, mosquito infestations, not enough chocolate in the
house, it's Tuesday, I need it for my research project..."   ;)

On Tue, 2009-12-15 at 16:08 +0000, Labhaoise wrote:
> Historically it was VERY labor intensive to produce, check out how
> linen is made and think!

Now that is an interesting statement, at least to someone like me who is
not a fabric maven.

Can you elaborate a bit on this, for the benefit of the novice sewing
folks like me? I know a little about cotton processing, but nothing at
all about linen.

Kind regards,

Justin

--
()xxxx[]::::::::::::::::::>                  <::::::::::::::::::[]xxxx()
Maistor Justinos Tekton called Justin (Scott Courtney)
Gules, on a bezant a fleam sable and on a chief dovetailed Or two keys
fesswise reversed sable.

justin@...                              http://4th.com/sca/justin/

I am sure there are others, but the Greater Bay Area Costumer's Guild
(http://www.gbacg.org/)has extensive reviews on the different patterns/companies
written by people with varying skill levels/goals. I find it interesting that
the quality may vary greatly between two patterns from the same company.

Also, if you are a beginner, you may want a less acurate pattern with better
directions! Nothing like not being able to figure out where this random wedge of
material GOES!

The earlier the period, the more the garments are geometric in design. There are
several web sites with guidance as to how to determine shapes and sizes of the
pieces, and how to put them together. But patterns tend to be modern in design.
Labhaoise

Elizabeth commented:
<<< It's also a good idea to invest in good patterns from reputable
companies
e.g. Margo Anderson http://www.margospatterns.com/ & The Tudor Tailor
http://www.tudortailor.com/tailorsshop.htm for 16th century (I'm sure
there
are others for earlier periods) >>>

Thanks for the suggested pattern sources. I will add them to this
file. Perhaps the comments and reviews here might also help:
patterns-msg      (86K)  1/ 9/08    Sources for clothing patterns.
Altering mundane patterns.
http://www.florilegium.org/files/CLOTHING/patterns-msg.html

<<< or learn how to create your own patterns the
period way by draping fabric on a body (a duct tape double will come in
handy if you want anything fitted) >>>

clothng-forms-msg (22K)  3/24/06    Commercial and homemade clothing
forms.
http://www.florilegium.org/files/TEXTILES/clothng-forms-msg.html

Stefan
--------
THLord Stefan li Rous    Barony of Bryn Gwlad    Kingdom of Ansteorra
     Mark S. Harris           Austin, Texas          StefanliRous@...
**** See Stefan's Florilegium files at:  http://www.florilegium.org ****

I'll be posting the images to my file on the Medieval Encampments group on Yahoo
as well, but just in case not everyone is a member there, here are the images on
Facebook. If ONE person will let me know if you can't see the images, that'd be
great.

http://www.facebook.com/album.php?aid=2042875&id=1107234152&l=ada9513730

My goal with the pottery is to have a fully equipped camp in terms of cooking,
serving, and eating. Ultimately I want to be able to have, say, a dozen people
over for meals in my camp and be able to serve them all in my own pottery. I'd
also like to eventually sell some of my pottery in order to support my pottery
habit, because it's not cheap to get studio time, clay, glazes, and tools to
work with.
-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
D'vorah, mka Judith Epstein
Master Albrecht Waldfurster's Egg
Middle Kingdom, Midlands, Ayreton, Tree-Girt-Sea (Chicago, IL)
judith@...
-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-

You got it in ONE! EVERYTHING has been used somewhere sometime.... cotton is in
use in the Med areas and into N Africa and Asia. Historically it was VERY labor
intensive to produce, check out how linen is made and think!

BUT, SCA is mostly people presenting themselves as sorta some period, rank and
privaledge. Yup, some go wild for hand loomed, plant dyed wool from my very own
organic sheep, but then some go wild for the 18th century vision of the Mideaval
period. (know one woman who looks like she stepped out of a specific  painting
from the romanitic period.)

That said, some things are in no way period. I am NOT saying don't use them. I
personally own an fitted "corset" made from upholstry fabric. I love it but it
is SO NOT period, Yep, I wear it.... My GD owns a bliut made of hideous pink
paisley, lined with amazingly purple silk, and trimmed with gold drapery
trimmings, you can see her coming a mile off, period, nope, well it trys, AND
she is extremely happy with the effect.... That is what you are aiming for, not
to please the period nazis, but to please yourself....

If it satisfies you to wear a one cut tunic made from used floral sheets topped
with the most expensive upholstry corset you can find, well you have made an
effort, AND YOU are gonna have fun....

Strut your stuff!

When you want more, and it sounds like you do, lots of good ideas here, and lots
of good(and bad) websites on how to put it all together....

Never spend more than you want, never wear something because some expert, who
may(probably is) wrong told you to do so.

SCA is not about reinactment, it's a fantasy, not the same one as say a Faire,
but take what you need, listen to the respectful, and ignore the rest!
Labhaoise


Ziddinaaitzumar@... wrote:
> Yikes!  I like answer #2...   I think Branwyn Morgan [spelling??  not sure
of name...] posted a comment in reply to my queries about wearing 'tea-stained'
cotton as chemise fabic - just look back in the previously posted comments for
something about "What chemises are made of" within the last two months - Branwyn
referred me to a website that was extremely useful, and did indicate that cotton
is totally period - later period, if I remember correctly...  You'll also
notice the comment that cotton was used by wealthy people; you may not be able
to afford much fabric right now, but your personas can be wealthy ....  [Don't
know whether the bold/italics are coming thru...]  Zid

One more to add, try your local, Salvation Army, Goodwill, church thrift.... Oh,
first learn to identify fabric, patterns, and colors.... and dig through the
piles.... Much of my kids garb(and they go through sizes quickly) are remade
(VERY period) from other clothing...

Linen summer dresses are common, remember that linen does not take traditional
dyes well... Period clothing was often remade to fit, redyed to match, passed
down, saved, made from pieces of several other graments and garment dyes....
well you get the idea!

Rasberry was "in" a few years ago, I bought several wool skirts on dollar day,
and POW!

Irish linen table cloths show up(it makes me cry to cut them, but it give you a
feel for what you should be looking for.

Both Fabric dot com and fabric-store dot come have deals, watch for them. Think
in terms of layering, your inner garment should be "white" linen, which isn't
really white, PLEASE no optic white. you can get a sleeveless undertunic or
"pants" from a yard or less, make enough that like your modern undies you can
change them every day... One or two outer garments should do, oh, and length of
wool for shawl or the like to keep you warm....

Back to the thrift shops, by the 12th century silk was available, YOU cannot
aford yards and yards, but neither could they, most silk would be used to trim
neck and sleeve.... Good trim will discuise a multitude of sins in your garb
(NOT old floral bedsheets! but if you cannot get linen, you probably can find
cotton that looks and feels close)

But first, pick your period and start looking at (original)artworks so you know
what colors, styles, trims are right. Watch out for art presenting another
period, art presenting religious themes, and modern presentations of what others
think it is/was/should be.

You won't get perfect on your first try, you won't be a expert(well, probably
not). Oh, and when you go to events, take LOTS of pics, then you can start to
know what others are doing and why.

The goal is to be happy with your garb, feel like it looks good, feels good,
moves correctly, FOR YOU.

IF you can also, feel fabric and say, this is silk not rayon, this is wool not
poly blend, and understand that this isn't just a period difference but a
comfort difference, you would be warm in a light wool gown in august, but in
poly blend you will feel like you've been wrapped in saran wrap!
Labhaoise

On Sun, 2009-12-13 at 13:45 -0800, Bambi TBNL wrote:
> Bambi (To be named later) TBNL


{chuckle}

"You are in the SCA. You have the right to remain modern. Should you
choose to give up this right, anything medieval you do can and will be
entered in an A&S display. If you want a name but cannot afford one, or
have not chosen one within a reasonable period of time, a name will be
appointed for you at no cost. Do you understand these rights?"

--
()xxxx[]::::::::::::::::::>                  <::::::::::::::::::[]xxxx()
Maistor Justinos Tekton called Justin (Scott Courtney)
Gules, on a bezant a fleam sable and on a chief dovetailed Or two keys
fesswise reversed sable.

justin@...                              http://4th.com/sca/justin/

-----Original Message-----
From: scanewcomers@yahoogroups.com [mailto:scanewcomers@yahoogroups.com] On
Behalf Of peterbenma
Sent: Wednesday, 9 December 2009 1:31 PM
To: scanewcomers@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [SCA Newcomers] Fabric question...

I know that linen and wool ar the best fabrics for period garb.  The problem
I face with those is that I don't have  alot of either and we must stay to a
budget.  Is it ok to start off with cotton fabrics as those are much less
expensive?

------------------------------------

As other people have mentioned SCA rules only require an attempt (the
governing documents don't even say 'reasonable' attempt) at pre 17th century
clothing.

I say better cotton than synthetic (synthetic is hot, and melts onto your
skin if it gets burnt and the SCA has a lot of open fires) it takes a bit
more care in choosing cotton fabrics than linen or wool. Many people make
tunics out of stiff cotton like broadcloth or twill and then wonder why it
their tunic looks like a box. The trick is to find some softer cottons that
will drape more like linen or wool, if it's a little bit sheer don't worry
too much, so long as two or three layers of the fabric isn't too sheer for
your comfort. In just about any period people wore at least two (more often
three) layers of clothing for women that would be a shift/chemise/smock, a
kirtle/under dress, and a gown. The smock would be a white fabric (almost
always linen) that was easy to wash, the outer two layers were mostly wool
or silk (as linen is relatively difficult to dye using natural methods it
was not often used for coloured outer garments). The one big down side to
cotton is the fading, it tends to fade more quickly than wool or silk and
can often fade in patches, this is a good reason to follow period practice
and wash the outer layers as little as possible and wear white undergarments
to absorb the sweat and deal with all the washing.

While you're just starting out it's actually a good idea to make something
you don't feel too attached to while you work out where your interests lie
in the SCA. Later when you decide on a favourite time period I would
advocate saving up to invest in a few pieces of good quality garb that will
last for a long time. Set aside a few dollars each week and save for what
you want (I know a couple of people who have a dedicated fabric fund).

It's also a good idea to invest in good patterns from reputable companies
e.g. Margo Anderson http://www.margospatterns.com/ & The Tudor Tailor
http://www.tudortailor.com/tailorsshop.htm for 16th century (I'm sure there
are others for earlier periods) or learn how to create your own patterns the
period way by draping fabric on a body (a duct tape double will come in
handy if you want anything fitted) there are good books out there that give
you an idea of the pattern shapes for different periods, but there's also
some abysmal ones so ask for opinions before you trust a book.

HTH
Elizabeth
-----------------------------------------
Elizabeth Walpole   | Elizabeth Beaumont
Canberra, Australia | Politarchopolis, Lochac
http://magpiecostumer.110mb.com/

I started out 21 years ago making al  my summer stuff out of cotton because
that was what I could afford , it sis the job and I wasnnt entering it into an
A&S competition anyway... slowly though , after 20 years of dragging my patootie
to pennsic with a small child and what ever would fit on or in the vehicle that
ran T?HAt particular year...I have found that with judicious sholpping I could
find REALLY good fabric bargains @ Pennsic and usually save most of my
disposable income for linen  purchased there...I came home with 30 yards this
year....granted..some of the colors have some 'splainin to do,but linen is also
very very dyable so...at $3.00 a yard, 60" wide it was MUCH cheaper than
cotton...i brought home every last inch I could afford to clothe not only
my ever expanding mass (read that nothing fits from year to year and I have
given most of my stuff away!)but also my dearly beloved newbie husband who does
not have enough garb yet to make
  it through a long camping event.
WOOHOO!!!..opps no VIVAT!!! Bambi (To be named later) TBNL


I am made for great things by GOD
and walk with Pride!!!!
Walladah bint al Mustakfi c 1100ad
see me dance
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7HMtOoXtMs0




________________________________
From: Justinos Tekton called Justin <justin@...>
To: scanewcomers@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Sun, December 13, 2009 2:21:06 PM
Subject: Re: [SCA Newcomers] Fabric question...

 
On Tue, 2009-12-08 at 23:14 -0600, Judith Epstein wrote:
> Absolutely not. Cotton should be outlawed because it wasn't used in
> Europe at all except by the extremely wealthy, due to its scarcity and
> the fact that it wouldn't grow in European climates.

[humor mode]
Which is why being Byzantine persona is such a good thing. Well, that,
and having the honor of living in New Rome, which is of course the
center of civilization and culture. *We* have cotton -- and indoor
plumbing, at least for the well-to-do. You western Europeans are welcome
to live in your chilly, squalid little kingdoms if you choose to do so.

(Yes, D'vorah, I realize you were being ironic here...I just couldn't
resist the urge to brag about my persona's homeland!)

[/humor mode]

Seriously, though, I prefer linen over cotton when I can afford it.
Cotton is great...linen is even better. The more you wear it, the more
comfortable it becomes. I hate hot weather, but linen makes it almost
tolerable.

All that being said, let me cast my vote for D'vorah's option #2. :-)

Justin

--
()xxxx[]:::: ::::::::: :::::> <::::::::::: :::::::[] xxxx()
Maistor Justinos Tekton called Justin (Scott Courtney)
Gules, on a bezant a fleam sable and on a chief dovetailed Or two keys
fesswise reversed sable.

justin@... http://4th.com/sca/justin/







[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

On Tue, 2009-12-08 at 23:14 -0600, Judith Epstein wrote:
> Absolutely not. Cotton should be outlawed because it wasn't used in
> Europe at all except by the extremely wealthy, due to its scarcity and
> the fact that it wouldn't grow in European climates.

[humor mode]
Which is why being Byzantine persona is such a good thing. Well, that,
and having the honor of living in New Rome, which is of course the
center of civilization and culture. *We* have cotton -- and indoor
plumbing, at least for the well-to-do. You western Europeans are welcome
to live in your chilly, squalid little kingdoms if you choose to do so.

(Yes, D'vorah, I realize you were being ironic here...I just couldn't
resist the urge to brag about my persona's homeland!)

[/humor mode]

Seriously, though, I prefer linen over cotton when I can afford it.
Cotton is great...linen is even better. The more you wear it, the more
comfortable it becomes. I hate hot weather, but linen makes it almost
tolerable.

All that being said, let me cast my vote for D'vorah's option #2. :-)

Justin

--
()xxxx[]::::::::::::::::::>                  <::::::::::::::::::[]xxxx()
Maistor Justinos Tekton called Justin (Scott Courtney)
Gules, on a bezant a fleam sable and on a chief dovetailed Or two keys
fesswise reversed sable.

justin@...                              http://4th.com/sca/justin/

don't forget Pillaged Village

Mariassa


   ----- Original Message -----
   From: David Backlin
   To: scanewcomers@yahoogroups.com
   Sent: Sunday, December 13, 2009 7:51 AM
   Subject: Re: [SCA Newcomers] Where to buy Tablet Weave for tunic trim??




   ----- Original Message -----
   From: <cailin.sca@...>
   To: <scanewcomers@yahoogroups.com>
   Sent: Friday, December 11, 2009 5:13 PM
   Subject: Re: [SCA Newcomers] Where to buy Tablet Weave for tunic trim??

   > For trim, calontir trim is also an excellent resource.
   >

   Also trimguy.net (who also has buttons)




[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

----- Original Message -----
From: <cailin.sca@...>
To: <scanewcomers@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Friday, December 11, 2009 5:13 PM
Subject: Re: [SCA Newcomers] Where to buy Tablet Weave for tunic trim??


> For trim, calontir trim is also an excellent resource.
>


Also trimguy.net (who also has buttons)

Thanks All!! White Wolf and Phoenix looks like a great starting place.

We have a relatievly local merchant (in Atlantia, maybe) called White Wolf and
Phoenix that do both a number of standard patterns and take commissions.  Very
nice work.  I don't know if they have a web presence or not.

Brangwayna Morgan
Shire of Silver Rylle, East Kingdom
Lancaster, PA



-----Original Message-----
From: Chad <dcwilson29@...>
To: scanewcomers@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Thu, Dec 10, 2009 8:33 pm
Subject: [SCA Newcomers] Where to buy Tablet Weave for tunic trim??




Does anyone know a good place to buy /commision Tablet weave?

Will attempt to learn how to make my own (when time permits) but im just getting
started in the SCA and need to get some garb ready for events etc..

Thanks in Advance







[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Calontir trim has lots and lots of beautiful trim, it is true, but none of
it is tablet woven.
Or at least not any time I've ever seen them at an event - including the
last two Pennsics, and last Saturday at Boar's Head in Northshield.
It is all machine made, and mostly polyester or nylon.

Tabitha Pennywarden
Ravenslake, Midlands
Middle Kingdom

   -----Original Message-----
   From: scanewcomers@yahoogroups.com [mailto:scanewcomers@yahoogroups.com]On
Behalf Of cailin.sca@...
   Sent: Friday, December 11, 2009 5:13 PM
   To: scanewcomers@yahoogroups.com
   Subject: Re: [SCA Newcomers] Where to buy Tablet Weave for tunic trim??



   For trim, calontir trim is also an excellent resource.
   Sent via BlackBerry by AT&T

   -----Original Message-----
   From: "Chad" <dcwilson29@...>
   Date: Fri, 11 Dec 2009 01:33:27
   To: <scanewcomers@yahoogroups.com>
   Subject: [SCA Newcomers] Where to buy Tablet Weave for tunic trim??

   Does anyone know a good place to buy /commision Tablet weave?

   Will attempt to learn how to make my own (when time permits) but im just
getting started in the SCA and need to get some garb ready for events etc..

   Thanks in Advance

   [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]






[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

For trim, calontir trim is also an excellent resource.
Sent via BlackBerry by AT&T

-----Original Message-----
From: "Chad" <dcwilson29@...>
Date: Fri, 11 Dec 2009 01:33:27
To: <scanewcomers@yahoogroups.com>
Subject: [SCA Newcomers] Where to buy Tablet Weave for tunic trim??

Does anyone know a good place to buy /commision Tablet weave?

Will attempt to learn how to make my own (when time permits) but im just getting
started in the SCA and need to get some garb ready for events etc..

  Thanks in Advance




[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Chad asked:
<<< Does anyone know a good place to buy /commision Tablet weave?

Will attempt to learn how to make my own (when time permits) but im
just getting started in the SCA and need to get some garb ready for
events etc.. >>>

If you are wanting the handmade stuff, check with folks in your local
group or when you are at your next event or possibly ask on your
kingdom mailing list. There is a lot of barter that goes on in the SCA
and this would be an item that can often be handled that way. I'm not
sure of anyone that regularly sells the handmade stuff.

For the machine-made stuff, you can often find useable stuff in your
local fabric stores.

For more info on trim, and I think some sources for the machine made
stuff, see this file in the CLOTHING section of the Florilegium:
trim-msg          (54K)  8/30/04  Medieval and SCA trim for clothing.
http://www.florilegium.org/files/CLOTHING/trim-msg.html

Unfortunately the Florilegium server went down this morning. I've left
a message with my site administrator, but I don't have any information
yet on when it will be back up. In the meantime, I'm happy to email
copies of any of the Florilegium files to you by email.

Stefan
--------
THLord Stefan li Rous    Barony of Bryn Gwlad    Kingdom of Ansteorra
     Mark S. Harris           Austin, Texas          StefanliRous@...
**** See Stefan's Florilegium files at:  http://www.florilegium.org ****

If it trim you want, which is very difficult to distinguish from
tablet-weaving-by-hand, have a look at the huge selection of trims carried by
House of Anoria. Many of their designs are based - so I was told - upon
SCA-period originals.
When I was starting in the SCA with my Lady in 2005, I found Anoria very useful.

YiS,
 Matthewe Baker
Drachenwald.

--- On Fri, 11/12/09, Chad <dcwilson29@...> wrote:

From: Chad <dcwilson29@...>
Subject: [SCA Newcomers] Where to buy Tablet Weave for tunic trim??
To: scanewcomers@yahoogroups.com
Date: Friday, 11 December, 2009, 1:33







 









       Does anyone know a good place to buy /commision Tablet weave?



Will attempt to learn how to make my own (when time permits) but im just getting
started in the SCA and need to get some garb ready for events etc..



Thanks in Advance






















[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Greetings!

http://whitewolfandphoenix.com/

This is the website for White Wolf and the Phoenix, run by Master Herveus and
MIstress Megan of Atlantia. Mistress Megan makes tablet- and inkle-woven trims
in various fibers. They also sell weaving supplies when you're ready to try your
hand at your own. I've purchased trim, belt favors and various supplies from
them over the past few years. Quality work and very nice folks!

Slan,
Grainne ingen Lugdach
Shire of Roxbury Mill
Atlantia



----- Original Message ----
To: scanewcomers@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Thu, December 10, 2009 8:33:27 PM


Does anyone know a good place to buy /commision Tablet weave?

Will attempt to learn how to make my own (when time permits) but im just getting
started in the SCA and need to get some garb ready for events etc..

Thanks in Advance