--- In water-rockets@yahoogroups.com, "kevinsbirds2003"
<gokevivel@e...> wrote:

<snip>

> Henning, I like the idea of gluing the nozzle directly to the bottle
> after removing the bottle threads.  I have a few questions: Do you
> alter the nozzle at all?

I had to sand down the threads of the nozzle a bit. My bottle is 20mm
i.d. I think I used a 3/4 tap connector.

> What type of glue do you use?

I used "super-epoxy" from Henkel, I think. Polyuretan is probably better.

>  I ask about
> the glue because if you can't remove the nozzle from a bottle once
> the bottle has out lived it life doesn't this method become a one
> time deal?

I excpect the bottle last a few years... Since it is recycleable it is
very strong. But yes, once the nozzle is glued on, it better be
aligned properly or it's wasted. I've only made one, and I haven't
tried it yet because the nozzle is not aligned properly... Maybe if I
put on big fins...

I'm considering other methods of doing it, there is a 1 inch tap
adapter out there somewhere. This could maybe be glued to the cap instead.

Henning

----- Original Message -----
From: "Lonnie Engbrecht" <H20rockets@...>


>Those quick disconnect nozzles can be heated with a heat gun.   Once soft it
can be screwed to the bottle neck threads.

Thanks Lonnie

I was just checking the hope of  forcing those together nite before, the count
on the bottle thread is about 1/2 that of the nozz...so a male nozz thread
forces into a cap or tornado tube pretty well, but the reverse seemed not to
allow the fem nozz to seal to the hose washer.  But w/ or good freind the
heatgun we solve many problems   (-:

Went across to the Olympic Peninsula yesterday,  Wanted a hat from the store at
the Hama Hama River.  I like obscure hats.  Stopped at the Food Coop in Port
Townsend to get some bottled water...found a new plastic Chrystal Geyser 532ml
sparking water bottle that is similar in shape and diameter to the small DrP's. 
Has a little more curve and length to the bottle neck.

Futher down Hood Canal on Hwy 101 is that store.  We got hats, smoked salmo and
oysters, sauces, and best of all a bunch of 0.5L Perrier bottles.  Yeah, and
made of plastic!  The have that same bowling pin shape as the1L's but also widen
out at the foot agian...something like small coke bottles are shaped.

While riding the ferry back across...I took a piece of paper and marked the
circumfrence of the 2 bottles...CrGysr is about 4mm larger around.  So I cut off
the bottom and jammed it on the Perrier.  Would not go on until I loosened the
caps of both bottles.   Took a schreader cap and the tyre pump to get the dang 
CrGysr back off again!

I bet these bottles can be spliced in with the DrP's, long smart water, and
several other bottles that have similar girth.

I love it when I find new stuff.  Especially when I like drinking the water.

Learned a new piece of jargon.  We all know of recycling.  But try
upcycling-where you make an existant piece of trash into a usable item (ie.
gocery bag become 'Chute); or downcycling-like reuse rendered material into some
other product (ie. milk jugs chopped up, melted down,  made into thread and
knitted into fabric, cut and sewn to be come a Teeshirt, or fleece jacket).  So
would euro pop bottle  prcatices be called evercycling, eurocyling?

Hama Hama

dl

I'm considering building a electroyisis cell to try a real water rocket.  Seems
like two pieces of stainless steel sheetstock (available as stove pipe) could be
separated by a sheet of PETE and curled around each other to form 2 separted
plates (Electrodes).  Two machine screws and a small pipe fitting(gas outlet)
would be installed on a large mouth popcap.  The screws (for the battery
connections) would  each be fastened to one of the curled plates and I'd shove
plate assembly inside a AquaFina water bottle.  I'm thinking preshinking the
bottle some with a mold of some form, and making a nice stand for it so it can't
fall over.  And, yes, build a Wheeler style Launcher.

I guess NaOH -H2O mix is the fluid of choice as the electrolight...but does
anyone have info sites available for plate materials, electrolightic solutions
and other info pertanant to this project?  Also any suggestions as to safety
(Short of stuff like "Ur gonno blow Ur crazy ass off!"), and clever thought is
welcome.

I'm already familiar with good Doctor Dean's web sight, and I'm not sure if a wr
forum wide discussion of this subject is totally a good idea.  Is there another
forum that does discuss this subject? All, Feel free to post me directly.

dl

----- Original Message -----
From: "Lonnie Engbrecht" <H20rockets@...>


>Those quick disconnect nozzles can be heated with a heat gun.   Once soft it
can be screwed to the bottle neck threads.
>Lonnie


So my 2nd thought is how to diminish the diameter of the bulky nozz on the end
of a standaard bottle neck?  could the gluey kind of heat shink hold a nozz in
place??  Like cut away the flange and make as least turbulent nozz attachement
as possible....

dl

> electrolytic solutions

Washing soda is worth a look. Less caustic than sodium hydroxide but
still better Kept off hands.


         RM

--- In water-rockets@yahoogroups.com, Russell McMahon <apptech@p...>
wrote:
> > electrolytic solutions
>
> Washing soda is worth a look. Less caustic than sodium hydroxide but
> still better Kept off hands.
>

If my memory serves me correctly, a mild acid is a better choice -
Like talking no more than a spoonful of battery acid (suphuric) and
diluting it in a liter of water ... but in the end, anything which
will induce ionization in water (and that is anything which will
dissolve into an ionic solution - like copper sulphate) will work,
just as long as the free radicals produced are less(?) reactive that
the hydroxyl and hydrogen ions you want to split ... e.g. don't use
table salt or you may end up with chlorine instead of oxygen ....

----- Original Message -----
From: "radiotrib" <kevin@...>
To: <water-rockets@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Tuesday, August 02, 2005 4:49 AM
Subject: [water-rockets] Re: H2 + 0 question


> --- In water-rockets@yahoogroups.com, Russell McMahon <apptech@p...>
> wrote:
>> > electrolytic solutions
>>
>> Washing soda is worth a look. Less caustic than sodium hydroxide but
>> still better Kept off hands.

I'll try that, the handling of lye does put me off some.

Thanks
>>
>
> If my memory serves me correctly, a mild acid is a better choice -
> Like talking no more than a spoonful of battery acid (suphuric) and
> diluting it in a liter of water ... but in the end, anything which
> will induce ionization in water (and that is anything which will
> dissolve into an ionic solution - like copper sulphate) will work,
> just as long as the free radicals produced are less(?) reactive that
> the hydroxyl and hydrogen ions you want to split ... e.g. don't use
> table salt or you may end up with chlorine instead of oxygen ....
>
Sometimes  I install and repair a sanitation device for boats that employs about
25amps to a container of waste salt water to kill bacteria.  Letrasan's
definitely produce Cl, supposedly as an H2O+Cl acid, but you can smell the
'bleach odor'.

I guess if NaCl was used, HCl would be a likely product of combustion in the
rocket.  Maybe not the best choice as a leftover.  Or would the Cl dissolve in
the watermass to deplete combustable materails?

Hmm, got plenty of battery acid available, but i do like  not having holes in my
blue jeans...think I'll try the bicarb first.  I guess once the cell is sealed
there's not much chance of getting the solution on me but a safer choice may
still be best.  Water must be added, so there is in-field needed.

Um Borax?

Hmmm... Estes uses Citric Acid for their toy, same as I use for chem deploy.  I
just mixed a really strong batch of that.

Estes also uses a coil that gets hot rather than a spark ignitor.  I've got both
a piezo propane grille ignitor and a 1.5v battery powered ignitor for gas range
on hand.

My brother looked at doing this stuff to water, we used no electrolite, and
still got some gas from tapwater.  His research said we were also making H2O2. 
Donno.

dl

OK this is for you guys that have FTC's lying around the house.

What is the wall thickness and weight per meter of the two main FTC,
T8 & T12.  In good old Ireland they don't exist, health and safety
doesn't seem to be a big thing over here!!!!!

The reason that I ask is that I have just found what I hope will be
an equivalent but it seems a little bit heavy. The stuff is a large
bore cable conduit that we use for the telemetry cables on the wind
farms for under grounding cables. It's bright red and the size that
I'm looking at has the following dims:

OD 42mm
ID 38mm
Wall thickness 2mm
weight per meter 450g

The stuff is supposedly shatter proof and crush proof because it is
used for electrical cables. Must blow a bit it to see what pressure
it can take !!!!

Does this sound anything like an FTC or am I going to have to go and
get the credit card out and work out what dollars are in Euro????

Richy

--- In water-rockets@yahoogroups.com, "Richard" <torwind@e...> wrote:

> OD 42mm
> ID 38mm
> Wall thickness 2mm
> weight per meter 450g

I recognise that stuff .. I've got a few meters of surgical equipment
PC tume with the same dimensions .. it's heavy so it's not FTC (about
0.8mm wall thickness max) but the 40mm will handle up to over 30 bar
if you have the nerve to push it that far !! That more than
compensates for the additional weight .. and introduces a wonderful
bit of momentum into the coasting part of the flight characteristics ...

But in truth .. I only use the 50mm size as a shrink and glue mandrel
for 500ml pop bottles .. see long'n'skinny in the photos ... coz I
found it was too heavy to be part of the normal (i.e. 8-10 bar) armoury.

K4

From: "Richard" <torwind@...>

> OK this is for you guys that have FTC's lying around the house.
>
Hi, from the Seattle area, I got:



T8FTC:
32mm od
.55mm wall
128mm=100ml
781.25ml/m
186mm weighs10.49g
56g/m

T12FTC
42mm od
.54mm or .67 wall
92.5mm circumfrence
72mm=100ml
1388.89ml/m
200mm=17.7g
88.5g/m

I've found 2 kinds of t12, the 2nd will test to 10bar, as does the t8.  I just
measured the thicker stuff for vol, etc.  These are measurements done at the
kitchen sink using 50ml syringe, tailor's measureing tape, chem gram scale etc. 
To presicely accurate, but enough to help me when building with these materials.

Your tube is much thicker wall.  But thinner than the thinwall pvc pipe around
here.  What's it made of?


> The stuff is supposedly shatter proof and crush proof because it is
> used for electrical cables. Must blow a bit it to see what pressure
> it can take !!!!

Good plan. Be fun to know about it.

dl

This "experiment" would be a good place to start...just for the fact
that it mentions some of the more important bits (graphite electrodes)

Don't want holes in your pants...wear an apron.  No apron?  How about
making one out of a trash bag.

Now what in the world did you want to do this for again?  Seems like
an inefficient way to fill up a bottle (or to get
hydrogen/oxgyen...since it's available for sale in most mid to large
sized cities.




--- In water-rockets@yahoogroups.com, "David G Leatham"
<res0inod@v...> wrote:
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "radiotrib" <kevin@t...>
> To: <water-rockets@yahoogroups.com>
> Sent: Tuesday, August 02, 2005 4:49 AM
> Subject: [water-rockets] Re: H2 + 0 question
>
>
> > --- In water-rockets@yahoogroups.com, Russell McMahon <apptech@p...>
> > wrote:
> >> > electrolytic solutions
> >>
> >> Washing soda is worth a look. Less caustic than sodium hydroxide but
> >> still better Kept off hands.
>
> I'll try that, the handling of lye does put me off some.
>
> Thanks
> >>
> >
> > If my memory serves me correctly, a mild acid is a better choice -
> > Like talking no more than a spoonful of battery acid (suphuric) and
> > diluting it in a liter of water ... but in the end, anything which
> > will induce ionization in water (and that is anything which will
> > dissolve into an ionic solution - like copper sulphate) will work,
> > just as long as the free radicals produced are less(?) reactive that
> > the hydroxyl and hydrogen ions you want to split ... e.g. don't use
> > table salt or you may end up with chlorine instead of oxygen ....
> >
> Sometimes  I install and repair a sanitation device for boats that
employs about 25amps to a container of waste salt water to kill
bacteria.  Letrasan's definitely produce Cl, supposedly as an H2O+Cl
acid, but you can smell the 'bleach odor'.
>
> I guess if NaCl was used, HCl would be a likely product of
combustion in the rocket.  Maybe not the best choice as a leftover.
Or would the Cl dissolve in the watermass to deplete combustable
materails?
>
> Hmm, got plenty of battery acid available, but i do like  not having
holes in my blue jeans...think I'll try the bicarb first.  I guess
once the cell is sealed there's not much chance of getting the
solution on me but a safer choice may still be best.  Water must be
added, so there is in-field needed.
>
> Um Borax?
>
> Hmmm... Estes uses Citric Acid for their toy, same as I use for chem
deploy.  I just mixed a really strong batch of that.
>
> Estes also uses a coil that gets hot rather than a spark ignitor.
I've got both a piezo propane grille ignitor and a 1.5v battery
powered ignitor for gas range on hand.
>
> My brother looked at doing this stuff to water, we used no
electrolite, and still got some gas from tapwater.  His research said
we were also making H2O2.  Donno.
>
> dl

poitsplace wrote:
{snip]
> Now what in the world did you want to do this for again?  Seems like
> an inefficient way to fill up a bottle (or to get
> hydrogen/oxgyen...since it's available for sale in most mid to large
> sized cities.

Not that I would suggest it. . .but

Even in small towns, drugstore hydrogen peroxide with baker's yeast (A
catalyst, so you only need a pinch) added makes a good quantity of
oxygen.  HCl, sold in some hardware stores, though it is getting harder
to find, as muriatic acid, and galvanized nails (zinc) makes hydrogen,
and the reactor vessels might be designed to look much cooler than a
single electrolysis cell.  Oh, did I mention that both of these
reactions are pretty fast?  (;

--
Gordon McDonough
Santa Fe, NM

http://users.hubwest.com/gordo

Equally empty
Equally to be loved
Equally a coming Buddha

--- In water-rockets@yahoogroups.com, Gordon McDonough <gordo@h...> wrote:

> Not that I would suggest it. . .but
>
> Even in small towns, drugstore hydrogen peroxide with
> baker's yeast (A catalyst, so you only need a pinch)
> added makes a good quantity of oxygen.

Interesting little side note...the reaction caused by yeast AND the
reaction when applied to your skin is MOSTLY from the catalase present
in pretty much all life that lives in an oxygenated environment...

nice faq here on the stuff
http://www.seps.org/cvoracle/faq/catalase.html

HOWEVER, if you want a REALLY fast reaction, try getting some
Potassium Permanginate (used to be used to kill bacteria in city
water).  Toss a strong solution of potassium permanganate into a
container full of say..."40 volume" hydrogen peroxide (avilable at
hair salons and beauty supply shops) and you get a VERY vigorous
reaction :)

Normal peroxide from the drug store is "10 volume" (also sold in
beauty supply places).  Sadly, you can't use off the shelf peroxide
products for monopropellants (rocket fuels that do not require two
parts) or as the oxidizer in liquid fuel rockets.  Peroxide strong
enough to use in such applications is kind of...unstable.  Like, spit
in it and you die.  Look at it wrong, thinking about it an a bad way,
taunting, etc...nasty stuff.  Also sets fire to pretty much anything
flammable it touches.

I'd really suggest anyone wanting to work on chemical rockets...start
out with "sugar fuel" (potassium nitrate/plain sugar) ALTHOUGH I've
been told that sorbitol (a sugar alcohol) doesn't have the annoying
hygroscopic properties of regular sugar fuel (doesn't get gummy or get
less potent during long term storage)

Of course, this is hardly the place to talk about such things.
==================================================

> HCl, sold in some hardware stores, though it is getting
> harder to find, as muriatic acid, and galvanized nails
> (zinc) makes hydrogen, and the reactor vessels might be
> designed to look much cooler than a single electrolysis
> cell.  Oh, did I mention that both of these reactions
> are pretty fast?  (;

Aluminum foil also works pretty well in the HCl.  "Muriatic acid" is
usually available where construction supplies are sold (specifically
used for etching concrete).

Another way would be to drop some aluminum foil in drain cleaner.
Personally I prefer to use the solid, prilled form as it's a MUCH more
compact way to store it.

what the heck, here's some info on that reaction (since I always like
to look stuff up to make sure my memory isn't faulty)

http://www.pc.chemie.uni-siegen.de/pci/versuche/english/v44-10.html

IMPORTANT SAFETY MESSAGE!!!!!!
Every time I hear about some stupid kid making a "bomb" with this
reaction, I cringe.  Seriously it is one of the more dangerous things
you can do.  People generally worry about acids "eating their skin"
but trust me...HYDROXIDES are far more likely to break down your skin,
EYES, muscles and pretty much everything except your bones and teeth.
  One stupid mistake with those "bombs" and you're blind forever.  If
one doesn't go off and lays around until someone else finds it...THEY
go blind.  People trying to clean up the mess can be injured unless
the material has been sitting out for DAYS (eventually it takes enough
CO2 out of the air to turn into sodium bicarbonate or sodium carbonate.

If you attempt experiments with ANYTHING I've mentioned here you
SHOULD be wearing goggles, gloves and an apron (Goggles at the VERY
least...you'll be messed up if something goes wrong but at least you
won't be blind)

I built my first rocket and had some good success with it except that
the valves usually start leaking after just a few uses. I'm using tire
valves purchased in the US. I've typically used pressures of 60-80
PSI. I've gone thru three of these valves so far. I'm wondering of
this is a typical problem, maybe an issue with my construction, or
what the problem might be. The design is pretty simple, based loosely
on this site http://polyplex.org/cjh/rockets/launcher/launcher.jpg.
The valve looks like this
http://www.myerstiresupply.com/pls/myers/display_coupon?pass_cou_id=236&cart_id=\
port0000

--- In water-rockets@yahoogroups.com, "Dave Sailer" <davesailer@y...>
wrote:
> I built my first rocket and had some good success with
> it except that the valves usually start leaking after
> just a few uses. I'm using tire valves purchased in the
> US. I've typically used pressures of 60-80 PSI. I've
> gone thru three of these valves so far. I'm wondering of
> this is a typical problem, maybe an issue with my
> construction, or what the problem might be. The design
> is pretty simple, based loosely on this site

> http://polyplex.org/cjh/rockets/launcher/launcher.jpg

> The valve looks like this
>http://www.myerstiresupply.com/pls/myers/display_coupon?pass_cou_id=236&cart_id\
=port0000

Hmmm, I usually end up just drilling a hole in the top of a PVC end
cap that's just a little smaller than the diameter of the neck of one
of these (just below the flange)
http://www.myerstiresupply.com/pls/myers/display_coupon?pass_cou_id=238&cart_id=\
port0000

Works like a charm.  You could also drill a hole the right size for
screwing in a standard metal fitting...and maybe use a little caulk or
some other sort of sealer on the inside.

Ummm...let's see...you could probably find a PVC connector that would
mate to a copper reducing assembly.  You could solder or braze
together a copper/brass assembly with threads that mate to PVC.  You
could make the whole thing out of copper and solder it.  You could
ummm...ah, use some sort of epoxy to make a plug in PVC that holds on
the valve.  There are a lot of different ways to do it

--- In water-rockets@yahoogroups.com, "Dave Sailer" <davesailer@y...>
wrote:
> the valves usually start leaking after just a few uses. I'm using tire
> valves purchased in the US.


When I built my own cable tie launcher (photo in the radiotrib album
here) I went to the local pneumatic and hydro pressure company (the
one that sells compressors and parts) and bought (arrgh .. bad word ..
bad word!!) a non-return valve rated at 30 bar. The cost was only
about 10 euro and it had all the right theads to take a hose connector
at one end (2 euro) and an emergency pressure relief valve (10 euro)
at the other.

Then I conected my high pressure hose to the hose connector an put the
tube of a tyre valve, without the guts or the rubber cover, into the
other end of  the h/p hose.

The whole thing has worked (almost) flawlessly for dozens of pressure
tests and a few flights. wHy almost ?? .. the pressure gague gave up
the ghost and now reads 2 bars high because of a bent spindle. I just
bought a new one - another 10 euro I'm afraid.

Those compressor supplies companies are a treasure trove of
inexpensive and very interesting bits of (potential) launcher
technology, and every town has one.

Enjoy,

K4

I also have a problem with a leaky valve, but in a different way.
After getting my air source I had to install a pressure gauge to my
launcher.  Upon competion I was finally ready to pressure test my
launcher base.  I removed my faulty release mechanism and installed an
end cap.  I pressurized the base to 150psi (about 10 bar right,
14.7psi=1 bar?) noted the time and opened a cold one.  I was shooting
for 1 hour with minimal depressurization.  Ha, the joke was on me.  I
used a scavanged bicycle tube valve stem glued into a metal end cap.
My glue job failed after 5 minutes.  I figured I used the wrong
adhesive (silicon base).  Used PLP on the second try and evidently
didn't use enough because upon disassembly I found what appeared to be
a small channel which resulted in immediate failure.  This time I
gooped it up real good between the rubber and the end cap plus a fillet
bead around the edge of the rubber on the inside and another fillet
bead around the stem and the outside of the end cap.  By the time I
test it tomorrow evening the adhesive will have cured for 48 hours.
Let you know how it turns out.

--- In water-rockets@yahoogroups.com, "ake ottoson" <ake.ottoson@t...>
wrote:
> Where is the best site available for the ballistic theory of a
> side-glider?

http://members.aol.com/petealway/srrg.htm

Enjoy,

K

Pressure tested my launcher base with an end cap in place of the
release mechanism this evening.  Pressurized to 152psi and had 152psi
2 hours later :-)

Know the answer for my problem with the nozzle portion of my quick
connect release mechanism and should have something to test this
weekend.  Now if I can get my daughter to get in gear and do what she
said she wanted to do (making fins), splash off of our first rocket
shouldn't be far off.

Thanks to all who have offered their input, help, tips, hints and
clues.  They are all greatly appreciated and we learn something new
from each one.

kev

While it's more satisfying to launch a complete rocket...plain old
bottles make it about 20-30 meters (they start to tumble a fraction of
a second after they run out of "fuel")

Just in case you want to launch something :)


--- In water-rockets@yahoogroups.com, "kevinsbirds2003"
<gokevivel@e...> wrote:
> Pressure tested my launcher base with an end cap in place of the
> release mechanism this evening.  Pressurized to 152psi and had 152psi
> 2 hours later :-)
>
> Know the answer for my problem with the nozzle portion of my quick
> connect release mechanism and should have something to test this
> weekend.  Now if I can get my daughter to get in gear and do what she
> said she wanted to do (making fins), splash off of our first rocket
> shouldn't be far off.
>
> Thanks to all who have offered their input, help, tips, hints and
> clues.  They are all greatly appreciated and we learn something new
> from each one.
>
> kev

On Friday 05 August 2005 02:41, poitsplace wrote:
> While it's more satisfying to launch a complete rocket...plain old
> bottles make it about 20-30 meters (they start to tumble a fraction of
> a second after they run out of "fuel")
>
> Just in case you want to launch something :)

If you want to overfill it with water (somewhere like 50 to 70 per cent
instead of 25 per cent), you get a lovely knobbly shaft of water that is
worthy of photographing under the right lighting conditions (get around 2
metres from it, get your camera ready and launch).

At 2 metres, any catastrophic failure of the bottle shouldn't damage you too
much (failure mode doesn't allow for anything too heavy flying around any
serious distance) but you will have pressure tested te bottle any way:-)

--
Regards,


Paul Grosse

http://www.grosse.is-a-geek.com/
http://www.fresh.files2.serveftp.net/
http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/pagrosse/

==================================================
"To be is to do"--Socrates.
"To do is to be"--Jean-Paul Sartre.
"Do be do be do"--Frank Sinatra.
==================================================

----- Original Message -----
From: "ake ottoson" <ake.ottoson@...>
To: <water-rockets@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Thursday, August 04, 2005 11:37 AM
Subject: RE: [water-rockets] H2 + 0 question


> Your intention is to split H2O into H2 and O2. Alright You need Water.
> But water is not an electrical conductor to change that you need ions in
> the water. Safest and cheapest and most easy available is table salt
> NaCl. No one that I know of has been able to produce Cl-gas with this
> method. It take some time to explain why.

In the Letrasan waste treatment salt water is shocked by 12vdc power.  They say
it makes an acid - hypochloric acid, possibly.  Anyway it's water with Cl2
dissolved in it.  Smells of chlorine, for sure.

I've used a 1/3 dillution of HCl (called muriatic acid here (37% HCl) to clean
metal parts. just immerce the steel part in that and a yellow cloud forms. 
That's Cl2 gas!

  >A lot of salt and electrodes
> close to each other will improve the output. Nevertheless Be very
> careful. H2 gas explodes easily in a very nasty way.

I think I'll try the citric acid.  Estes would need to be extra cautious when
selling an H2+O cumbustion launched toy.  That's what they used.  I can increase
the solution strength beyond their choice as I gain knowlage by testing.

> And the mixture of
> 2 H2 and 1O2 that you get from this process is XXXXXXX dangerous. Do not
> be indoors.

I actually have a miners lamp that uses Calsium Carbide and water to make
Acytelene...same applies, and miners wear these clamped on their hats!!  Got
several different torches as well.  Some use Acytelene and air or mappgass or
propane; others use O2 as well.

  >Do not let anyone near that do not understand the process
> fully. No glass items ( hard to see on X-ray). And a lot of other things
> as well.
> As electrodes you can use anything that conduct electricity.
> think twice

but cut only once--oops that is measure twice.

I used to have 2 platinum electrodes..can't find em at present.  Been thinking
of using some carbon; I've found some old search light eletrodes on the beach
and saved those.

> Good Luck.
>
Thanks,  I think it's more fun to try than LCO2, or LN2

dl

If you use NaCl, Ake is right that you will not likely generate chlorine
gas.  (It could only happen if you have an acidic solution and/or you put a
very large voltage between the two electrodes).  What will happen, assuming
your electrodes are steel, is that the negative electrode will generate H2
gas like you want and the positive electrode will produce a little bit of
oxygen but mostly will corrode like crazy.  At first green iron(II)
hydroxide will form and, as the solution becomes more alkaline, then orange
iron(III)hydroxide will form.  The solution will end up being a big mess of
rust and one electrode will be eaten up.  This is due to the presence of
chloride which helps in the attack of the iron.  If the chloride is not
there and the pH is high (alkaline solution) then the iron can form a dense
protective oxide film that will largely prevent further corrosion.  This is
why sodium hydroxide or sodium citrate work well: they make an alkaline
solution that helps the iron survive.  Carbon electrodes may stand up to
NaCl, but they are inconvenient for other reasons (tend to flake and fall
apart under the bubbling action and also hard to get lots of surface area).
If you can tell I'm not a big fan of table salt as a way to promote
electrical conductivity of the solution.

Dean W.


----- Original Message -----
From: "ake ottoson"

> Your intention is to split H2O into H2 and O2. Alright You need Water.
> But water is not an electrical conductor to change that you need ions in
> the water. Safest and cheapest and most easy available is table salt
> NaCl. No one that I know of has been able to produce Cl-gas with this
> method.

----- Original Message -----
From: "Dean Wheeler" <wheed@...>

Hi Dean, and thanks.


>  If the chloride is not
> there and the pH is high (alkaline solution) then the iron can form a dense
> protective oxide film that will largely prevent further corrosion.  This is
> why sodium hydroxide or sodium citrate work well: they make an alkaline
> solution that helps the iron survive.

So I guess stainless steel handles roughly the same as iron.  ??

When we were making H2 from tap water, we had red/brown parsipitate and yellow
water after an overnight trial.  maybe was using 40vdc.  I'm guessing the
chlorine in the tap water madethe iron suffer, and maybe the yellow color was
the chromium from the S.steel tubes I used.  Certainly Stainless Steel itself is
complicated subject.  Theres lots of different mixes.  And buying any 'pure
iron' sheetstock is near impossible...everything is steel nowadays.

Is sodium citrate a common chem?

dl

--- In water-rockets@yahoogroups.com, "David G Leatham" <res0inod@v...>
wrote:

> Is sodium citrate a common chem?

*sigh* fighting the urge to continue this thread and the urge to answer
such questions.  From a practical standpoint I'd say there's no point
in any water rocket project ever including some system that involved
electrolysis.

But if for some strange reason anyone would still want sodium citrate,
you can always just make it with a little sodium hydroxide (readily
available) and citric acid (also readily available).

...But again, you can get the hydrogen and oxygen from other, already
mentioned processes far faster (minutes instead of hours).

This is a good example of why you need a good stable launcher.

http://www.big-boys.com/articles/rocketmiss.html

OK this is solid fuel rocket but I've seen it happen with water as
well.