I am going to leap in and suggest Hide and Seek - an early book but very
interesting and with some strong autobiographical hints.

Paul

Paul Lewis
47 Hereford Road, Acton, London W3 9JW United Kingdom
tel 020 8993 2361 - fax 020 8992 1753 - mob 07836 217311
mailto:paul@... web www.paullewis.co.uk



-----Original Message-----
From: Angela Richardson [mailto:angela@...]
Sent: 01 November 2000 07:18
To: wilkiecollins@egroups.com
Subject: Re: [WilkieCollins] Poll and next read


Elisabeth, I wonder if you could repost to the list the
books you assembled for a vote?  If people really don't
want to vote through a poll, it would be better to have
a vote on the list, which I don't mind carrying out.

This seems sensible if 12 people out of over 100 have
used the poll.

Angela

Polls?  What polls?  Where?

I've been a subscriber since this list started, but
am unaware of a website polling location.

Please repost instructions for benefit of those, like
myself, who don't know.

Thanks,

George Newman
Tucson, Arizona

Dear Angela

> In fact
> we see the relationship based on romance suffers.
> He also observes that Collins puts child custody and the child
> into the centre of the decision making in the novel, which strikes
> a modern note.
I have throughly enjoyed reading EG and reading the posts. I wonder though,
if Collins is acutally saying that the relationship suffered not because it
was based on romance, but on sexual attraction? And in this way the book
relates to his very early work, 'Basil', which again tells the tale of a
marriage which fails because the only thing that the pair had in common was
their sexual attraction?

On the subject of the poll, I looked at the website but got a bit confused.
Couldn't we just vote on list as we do on the other lists I am on? ( I can
manage that........) However, any book by Collins is always fine by me!

Love, Gwyn.





>
> Angela
>
>
>
>
>
>

Surely in Basil the sexual attraction was all on Basil's side? If Margaret
Sherwin was sexually attracted to anyone surely it was Mannion? Basil was
used for Mannion's revenge.

I also would prefer to vote on the list by email.

Paul

Paul Lewis
47 Hereford Road, Acton, London W3 9JW United Kingdom
tel 020 8993 2361 - fax 020 8992 1753 - mob 07836 217311
mailto:paul@... web www.paullewis.co.uk



-----Original Message-----
From: Paul & Gwyn Bailey [mailto:pbailey4@...]
Sent: 01 November 2000 19:50
To: wilkiecollins@egroups.com
Subject: Re: [WilkieCollins]Evil Genius/Poll


Dear Angela

> In fact
> we see the relationship based on romance suffers.
> He also observes that Collins puts child custody and the child
> into the centre of the decision making in the novel, which strikes
> a modern note.
I have throughly enjoyed reading EG and reading the posts. I wonder though,
if Collins is acutally saying that the relationship suffered not because it
was based on romance, but on sexual attraction? And in this way the book
relates to his very early work, 'Basil', which again tells the tale of a
marriage which fails because the only thing that the pair had in common was
their sexual attraction?

On the subject of the poll, I looked at the website but got a bit confused.
Couldn't we just vote on list as we do on the other lists I am on? ( I can
manage that........) However, any book by Collins is always fine by me!

Love, Gwyn.





>
> Angela
>
>
>
>
>
>

Hi everyone!

When the poll was created, there were instructions on the message that is
automatically sent to all members of the group.  Believe it or not, (and I
daresay you won't), it's actually easier and way more efficient than
counting votes via the main group e-mail.  However, as we don;t seem to want
this option, I'll mention what I can remember of the suggested books:

Hide and Seek
The Dead Secret
Basil
Blind Love
My Lady's Money
The Black Robe
The Fallen Leaves
Poor Miss Finch
The Woman in White
The Moonstone

I noticed that there are now 20 votes on the former poll and that the
frontrunner, with 25% of the votes is The Dead Secret.  The poll function
couldn't be easier, you simply click on the link given in the poll
announcement e-mail and, when you get there, you select what you want, click
on "vote" and leave the site.

Anyway, whatever!!!=)

Elisabeth
_________________________________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com.

Share information about yourself, create your own public profile at
http://profiles.msn.com.

>I also would prefer to vote on the list by email.
>
>Paul
I agree with Paul.  I would much prefer to vote by
email, it's faster and easier.

Joan

Hi!

Gwyn wrote:
>> any book by Collins is always fine by me!

I second that!

ATB
Chris
================================================================
Chris Willis
School of English and Humanities
Birkbeck College
Malet Street
London WC1E 7HX

Chris@...
http://www.chriswillis.freeserve.co.uk/
================================================================

Dear Paul


> Surely in Basil the sexual attraction was all on Basil's side? If Margaret
> Sherwin was sexually attracted to anyone surely it was Mannion? Basil was
> used for Mannion's revenge.
Yes, of course - but I just meant that sexual attraction on either or both
parntenr's side(s) was used as a bad sole basis for marriage - certainly it
was for Basil! Margaret knew what she was doing - but I suppose ultimately
sexual attraction caused her downfall too.

Love, Gwyn.

OK

Hide and Seek

Paul Lewis
47 Hereford Road, Acton, London W3 9JW United Kingdom
tel 020 8993 2361 - fax 020 8992 1753 - mob 07836 217311
mailto:paul@... web www.paullewis.co.uk



-----Original Message-----
From: Elisabeth R Braun [mailto:Elisabeth_t@...]
Sent: 02 November 2000 12:50
To: wilkiecollins@egroups.com
Subject: Re: [WilkieCollins] Polls


Hi everyone!

When the poll was created, there were instructions on the message that is
automatically sent to all members of the group.  Believe it or not, (and I
daresay you won't), it's actually easier and way more efficient than
counting votes via the main group e-mail.  However, as we don;t seem to want
this option, I'll mention what I can remember of the suggested books:

Hide and Seek
The Dead Secret
Basil
Blind Love
My Lady's Money
The Black Robe
The Fallen Leaves
Poor Miss Finch
The Woman in White
The Moonstone

I noticed that there are now 20 votes on the former poll and that the
frontrunner, with 25% of the votes is The Dead Secret.  The poll function
couldn't be easier, you simply click on the link given in the poll
announcement e-mail and, when you get there, you select what you want, click
on "vote" and leave the site.

Anyway, whatever!!!=)

Elisabeth
_________________________________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com.

Share information about yourself, create your own public profile at
http://profiles.msn.com.

Great!  Joan

At 09:47 PM 11/2/00 -0000, you wrote:
>OK
>
>Hide and Seek
>
>

So far we have two suggestions for Hide and Seek from Paul and Joan
and earlier on Louis suggested Fallen Leaves.  On the egroups poll
20 voted with the majority for The Dead Secret.


So using the list from Elisabeth, this is how it looks :

  The Dead Secret (5 votes)
  Hide and Seek (2 votes)
  The Fallen Leaves (1 vote)
  Basil
  Blind Love
  My Lady's Money
  The Black Robe
  Poor Miss Finch
  The Woman in White
  The Moonstone

Let me have your votes.  I'm collecting them between now, Friday 3rd
November and next Friday 10th.

Angela

Dear All

'The Dead Secret'

Love, Gwyn.

----- Original Message -----
From: "Angela Richardson" <angela@...>
To: <wilkiecollins@egroups.com>
Sent: Friday, November 03, 2000 8:06 AM
Subject: Re: [WilkieCollins] Next read


> So far we have two suggestions for Hide and Seek from Paul and Joan
> and earlier on Louis suggested Fallen Leaves.  On the egroups poll
> 20 voted with the majority for The Dead Secret.
>
>
> So using the list from Elisabeth, this is how it looks :
>
>  The Dead Secret (5 votes)
>  Hide and Seek (2 votes)
>  The Fallen Leaves (1 vote)
>  Basil
>  Blind Love
>  My Lady's Money
>  The Black Robe
>  Poor Miss Finch
>  The Woman in White
>  The Moonstone
>
> Let me have your votes.  I'm collecting them between now, Friday 3rd
> November and next Friday 10th.
>
> Angela
>
>
>
>
>
>

Hide and Seek.

George Newman
Tucson, Arizona

Here's how the votes are going

  The Dead Secret (7 votes)
  Hide and Seek (4 votes)
  The Fallen Leaves (1 vote)
  Basil
  Blind Love
  My Lady's Money
  The Black Robe
  Poor Miss Finch
  The Woman in White
  The Moonstone

  Let me have your votes.  I'm collecting them between now, Friday 3rd
  November and next Friday 10th.


I'm also trying to keep a list of the books we have read.  This is our
reading since January 1999

Evil Genius
Queen of Hearts
Law and the Lady
Iolani
Man and Wife
Jezebel's Daughter
Heart and Science
Haunted Hotel

I also remember reading No Name on the list.  Can anyone else fill in
any gaps?

Angela

Hi Angela,

I had voted on egroups for Dead Secret but have now
changed that to Hide and Seek so one of those 7 votes
needs to come out.

Joan who hopes our British members haven't floated
away as yet.


At 07:10 AM 11/4/00 +0000, you wrote:
>Here's how the votes are going
>
> The Dead Secret (7 votes)
> Hide and Seek (4 votes)
> The Fallen Leaves (1 vote)
> Basil
> Blind Love
> My Lady's Money
> The Black Robe
> Poor Miss Finch
> The Woman in White
> The Moonstone
>
> Let me have your votes.  I'm collecting them between now, Friday 3rd
> November and next Friday 10th.
>
>
>I'm also trying to keep a list of the books we have read.  This is our
>reading since January 1999
>
>Evil Genius
>Queen of Hearts
>Law and the Lady
>Iolani
>Man and Wife
>Jezebel's Daughter
>Heart and Science
>Haunted Hotel
>
>I also remember reading No Name on the list.  Can anyone else fill in
>any gaps?
>
>Angela
>
>
>
>
>
>

My vote is also for "The Dead Secret", although it would be included in the
original poll counts.

Elisabeth.
_________________________________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com.

Share information about yourself, create your own public profile at
http://profiles.msn.com.

I must admit to being a very quiet list member of late as I am taking a rest
from C19th century literature. HOWEVER I would love to reread the Woman in
White (my all time favourite novel).

Lucia

-----Original Message-----
From: Joan F. Wall [mailto:jfwall@...]
Sent: 04 November 2000 20:40
To: wilkiecollins@egroups.com
Subject: Re: [WilkieCollins] Next read - the latest

Hi Angela,

I had voted on egroups for Dead Secret but have now
changed that to Hide and Seek so one of those 7 votes
needs to come out.

Joan who hopes our British members haven't floated
away as yet.


At 07:10 AM 11/4/00 +0000, you wrote:
>Here's how the votes are going
>
> The Dead Secret (7 votes)
> Hide and Seek (4 votes)
> The Fallen Leaves (1 vote)
> Basil
> Blind Love
> My Lady's Money
> The Black Robe
> Poor Miss Finch
> The Woman in White
> The Moonstone
>
> Let me have your votes.  I'm collecting them between now, Friday 3rd
> November and next Friday 10th.
>
>
>I'm also trying to keep a list of the books we have read.  This is our
>reading since January 1999
>
>Evil Genius
>Queen of Hearts
>Law and the Lady
>Iolani
>Man and Wife
>Jezebel's Daughter
>Heart and Science
>Haunted Hotel
>
>I also remember reading No Name on the list.  Can anyone else fill in
>any gaps?
>
>Angela
>
>
>
>
>
>

This is how the voting is going so far, you have until
Friday to cast your vote.  Thanks to those who have
posted about their favourite reads.


Angela



The Dead Secret (4 votes)
Hide and Seek (2 votes)
The Woman in White (2 votes)
The Fallen Leaves (1 vote)
Basil
Blind Love
My Lady's Money
The Black Robe
Poor Miss Finch
The Moonstone

Hi!

I'm currently teaching The Woman in White as part of a criem fiction course.
I was unsure as to how the students would respond to it, as it's the first
19C text we've done, but theyre loving it!  They all reckon it's far better
than the 20C stuff we've done (PD James and Sara Paretsky).  Good to know
that Wilkie can still work his magic!

I wondered if anyone else on the list had taught The Woman in White
recently? I'd be interested to compare notes.

The class asked me one question which I didn't really know the answer to.
How does such a proper Victorian gent as Walter know as soon as he sees her
that Marian isn't wearing corsets?  Presumably as an artist he'd be rather
more familiar with the female anatomy than most Victorian men would be?  Or
did corsets change women's shape in such a way as to be immediately
noticeable to even the most casual observer?

Incidentally, my all-female class found this passage quite disturbing - it
seems very un-Victorian to have such an eminently respectable gent eyeing up
the figure of a woman who doesn't know he's there, and speculating about her
underwear!  (The only similar passage I've seen is one in a Dick Francis
where the hero and his mate speculate on which of the women they're watcing
aren't wearing bras!)  I think that this passage can be read as being quite
voyeuristic, and/or hinting that Walter has hidden depths of sensuality.
What do other list members think?

All the best
Chris
================================================================
Chris Willis
School of English and Humanities
Birkbeck College
Malet Street
London WC1E 7HX

Chris@...
http://www.chriswillis.freeserve.co.uk/
================================================================

Not that I'm an expert on corsets or anything, but my understanding is that if a
woman were not wearing them, she would lack that stiff upright posture.  Have
you seen Michelle Pfeiffer in "Age of Innocence"?  There are a couple of scenes
in that film where she's literally having trouble bending enough to sit
"normally" (as we would today) because of the corset.  I think the whale bone
and tight lacing really left a solid, stiff appearance that would be obvious if
it weren't there.  Certainly others will have more info. than I do; I was
intrigued by your students' reactions to the voyeuristic nature of that
scene--as soon as I read it, I realized it was true, but I hadn't thought of it
in that way before.  I always focus on the part where he comes to the startling
conclusion at the end of that very long passage that "the woman was ugly,"
because of the masculinity in it and the fact that it's really only her hands
and face that are masculine, which makes sense; she's a strong language user--a
writer and a speaker for others who can't write and speak for
themselves--anyway, I always passed over the faintly disturbing voyeurism there.
Sounds like a good group of students!  What a fun class, too.
--Prudence

>>> chris@... 11/07/00 02:47AM >>>
Hi!

I'm currently teaching The Woman in White as part of a criem fiction course.
I was unsure as to how the students would respond to it, as it's the first
19C text we've done, but theyre loving it!  They all reckon it's far better
than the 20C stuff we've done (PD James and Sara Paretsky).  Good to know
that Wilkie can still work his magic!

I wondered if anyone else on the list had taught The Woman in White
recently? I'd be interested to compare notes.

The class asked me one question which I didn't really know the answer to.
How does such a proper Victorian gent as Walter know as soon as he sees her
that Marian isn't wearing corsets?  Presumably as an artist he'd be rather
more familiar with the female anatomy than most Victorian men would be?  Or
did corsets change women's shape in such a way as to be immediately
noticeable to even the most casual observer?

Incidentally, my all-female class found this passage quite disturbing - it
seems very un-Victorian to have such an eminently respectable gent eyeing up
the figure of a woman who doesn't know he's there, and speculating about her
underwear!  (The only similar passage I've seen is one in a Dick Francis
where the hero and his mate speculate on which of the women they're watcing
aren't wearing bras!)  I think that this passage can be read as being quite
voyeuristic, and/or hinting that Walter has hidden depths of sensuality.
What do other list members think?

All the best
Chris
================================================================
Chris Willis
School of English and Humanities
Birkbeck College
Malet Street
London WC1E 7HX

Chris@...
http://www.chriswillis.freeserve.co.uk/
================================================================

To add to the corset conversation,

I know that Wilkie Collins himself had an aversion to the corseted figure
of the woman, which proves that it must have been rather obvious when a
woman was wearing a corset, probably for the reasons Prudence ennumerated.
A great picture of a corseted woman is actually the one picture we have of
the mother of Collins's three children, Martha Rudd. There's a photo of
Collins and Rudd (or Dawson, as she called herself) in the Catherine Peters
Wilkie Collins biography. The stiffness and unnatural-looking hourglass
shape of her figure are the biggest clues to me that she is wearing a corset.

I know that in other Collins books Collins mentions his distaste for
corsets, or rather his preference for women whose natural shapes are comely
enough to obviate the need for corsets. For example the first time Basil
sees Margaret in the novel Basil he notes her naturally low, small waist
and lack of a corset (I don't have the book in front of me).

In general it seems like Collins was preoccupied with women who had
beautiful figures and ugly faces. I know there are several examples of
these women throughout his novels--the only one I can come up with at the
moment is


*SPOILER FOR THOSE WHO HAVEN'T READ THE LAW AND THE LADY*


Eustace's first wife in The Law and the Lady, who is described as a woman
with a terrible complexion and ugly face, but a naturally beautiful figure
and gait.

Daniel

I remember reading that most Victorian women who wore corsets laced their
waits down to 18 inches or so. Most women are not that slim (I am definitely
not....) so I would have thought it would be obvious who wore them and who
didn't.

If that is the case, would Marion's underwear habits  brand her as rather
racy (in the manner of 1960s bra-lessness)?

Interesting this one....

Lucia
-----Original Message-----
From: Chris Willis [mailto:chris@...]
Sent: 07 November 2000 11:48
To: Wilkie Collins List
Subject: [WilkieCollins] Teaching the Woman in White

Hi!

I'm currently teaching The Woman in White as part of a criem fiction course.
I was unsure as to how the students would respond to it, as it's the first
19C text we've done, but theyre loving it!  They all reckon it's far better
than the 20C stuff we've done (PD James and Sara Paretsky).  Good to know
that Wilkie can still work his magic!

I wondered if anyone else on the list had taught The Woman in White
recently? I'd be interested to compare notes.

The class asked me one question which I didn't really know the answer to.
How does such a proper Victorian gent as Walter know as soon as he sees her
that Marian isn't wearing corsets?  Presumably as an artist he'd be rather
more familiar with the female anatomy than most Victorian men would be?  Or
did corsets change women's shape in such a way as to be immediately
noticeable to even the most casual observer?

Incidentally, my all-female class found this passage quite disturbing - it
seems very un-Victorian to have such an eminently respectable gent eyeing up
the figure of a woman who doesn't know he's there, and speculating about her
underwear!  (The only similar passage I've seen is one in a Dick Francis
where the hero and his mate speculate on which of the women they're watcing
aren't wearing bras!)  I think that this passage can be read as being quite
voyeuristic, and/or hinting that Walter has hidden depths of sensuality.
What do other list members think?

All the best
Chris
================================================================
Chris Willis
School of English and Humanities
Birkbeck College
Malet Street
London WC1E 7HX

Chris@...
http://www.chriswillis.freeserve.co.uk/
================================================================

Hello All:

I was also under the impression that corsets and stays were quite audible,
the whalebones creaking with every movement.

If you will excuse the reference to my own undergarments, I recently
disposed of a new underwired bra.  Whenever I bent or turned, it sounded
like a wicker basket being crushed!

In any case, it's possible that Walter might also have taken the absence of
creaking as an indication that Marian wore no stays.

Kecia Dusseault
Victoria, BC
Canada

The Dead Secret (6 votes)
  Hide and Seek (2 votes)
  The Woman in White (2 votes)
  The Fallen Leaves (1 vote)
  Basil
  Blind Love
  My Lady's Money
  The Black Robe
  Poor Miss Finch
  The Moonstone

Here is what Wilkie wrote about the female body in 1887 to the American
photographer Sarony who had sent him some nude studies.

"For I too think the back view of a finely-formed woman the loveliest view -
and her hips the most precious parts of that view.  The line of beauty in
those quarters enchants me, when it is not overladen by fat.  Some of the
best examples of your capacity as a draughtsman are too strongly developed
for my taste.  My ideal is the "Venus Callipyge" - holding up her robe, and
looking over her shoulder at her own divine back view.  From the small of
her back to the end of her thighs, she has escaped the detestable
restorers - and my life has been passed in trying to find a living woman who
is  like her - and in never succeeding.  After this, you will understand
that my three favourites, of the Nude Series, are the girl with closed eyes
floating past the moon - the girl reclining with transparent lace over part
of her body, and more lace on her head - and last (and most charming to me)
the girl entering her bath-room.  She has the fineness of line which
approaches my Venus - and the pose of the figure and the drawing of the
figure are really admirable.  No man but a born artist could have done it.
Bravo! bravo! carissimo Sarony!  And I repeat my cry in turning to the other
drawings - which I call the Series of charmers accommodated with clothes.

The action of the girl who is pouring water out of a bucket. The graceful
lady with the nosegay in one hand, and the fingers of the other occupied in
the divination by flowers.  And the sweet young creature holding a tazza and
looking at it seriously and thoughtfully."

Paul

Paul Lewis
47 Hereford Road, Acton, London W3 9JW United Kingdom
tel 020 8993 2361 - fax 020 8992 1753 - mob 07836 217311
mailto:paul@... web www.paullewis.co.uk



-----Original Message-----
From: Daniel Kemper Donovan [mailto:dkd@...]
Sent: 07 November 2000 17:10
To: wilkiecollins@egroups.com
Subject: Re: [WilkieCollins] Teaching the Woman in White


To add to the corset conversation,

I know that Wilkie Collins himself had an aversion to the corseted figure
of the woman, which proves that it must have been rather obvious when a
woman was wearing a corset, probably for the reasons Prudence ennumerated.
A great picture of a corseted woman is actually the one picture we have of
the mother of Collins's three children, Martha Rudd. There's a photo of
Collins and Rudd (or Dawson, as she called herself) in the Catherine Peters
Wilkie Collins biography. The stiffness and unnatural-looking hourglass
shape of her figure are the biggest clues to me that she is wearing a
corset.

I know that in other Collins books Collins mentions his distaste for
corsets, or rather his preference for women whose natural shapes are comely
enough to obviate the need for corsets. For example the first time Basil
sees Margaret in the novel Basil he notes her naturally low, small waist
and lack of a corset (I don't have the book in front of me).

In general it seems like Collins was preoccupied with women who had
beautiful figures and ugly faces. I know there are several examples of
these women throughout his novels--the only one I can come up with at the
moment is


*SPOILER FOR THOSE WHO HAVEN'T READ THE LAW AND THE LADY*


Eustace's first wife in The Law and the Lady, who is described as a woman
with a terrible complexion and ugly face, but a naturally beautiful figure
and gait.

Daniel

Please change my vote from Hide and Seek to
The Woman White.  It's my favorite, too.

Thanks,

George Newman
Tucson, Arizon

Hi guys! =) I'm really new to this group so I'm not exactly sure how it
works, but I wanted to cast my vote for our next read - "The Woman In
White". That's the only Collins' book I've read, and I absolutely loved
it! It's my all time fave. =)

The digests have been really interesting! =) I'm looking forward to more!

Beth <><
KS, USA
________________________________________________________________
YOU'RE PAYING TOO MUCH FOR THE INTERNET!
Juno now offers FREE Internet Access!
Try it today - there's no risk!  For your FREE software, visit:
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This is getting to be a close call but not quite on
the Gore/Bush level, I hope

The Dead Secret (6 votes)
The Woman in White (4 votes)
Hide and Seek (1 votes)
The Fallen Leaves (1 vote)
Basil
Blind Love
My Lady's Money
The Black Robe
Poor Miss Finch
The Moonstone