See FRED COMMENTS below:
--- In TruthorTradition@ yahoogroups. com, "Sea" <seawife@...> wrote:
> Fred, let me just say this last thing. There are ten commandments written
> on stone. Christians throw them all out and say they were nailed to the
> cross. Then they sneak nine back in under the door. No one ever says these
> following laws are not relevant to the Christian:-
> 1. Follow no strange god.
> 2. Do not bow down to idols.
> 3. Do not take God's name unworthily.
> 5. Honor your parents.
> 6. Do not commit adultery.
> 7. Do not steal.
> 8. Do not murder.
> 9. Do not covet what is not yours.
> There is nary a Christian who will argue against observing the above. No,
> Christians simply want
to forget the only commandment that God told us to
> remember. So out go the ten, and back come nine. All to get rid of #4
> which Christians loathe. I have heard all the excuses and all the
> derogatory remarks from Christians about how I am following a different
> gospel. But that is just to justify their own unwillingness to do the will
> of the Father.
FRED COMMENTS: I made no derogatory remarks toward you. It is Paul's warning about following a different gospel. The warning is still applicable today for the same reason he gave in the first century.
The argument is made by Paul, not I, and again, it is as follows. Read the context as you have opportunity.
Acts 13:38-39 38 Be it known unto you therefore, men and brethren, that through this man is preached unto you the forgiveness of sins: 39 And by him all that believe are justified from all things, from which ye could
not be justified by the law of Moses. KJV
Gal 3:10-11 10 For as many as are of the works of the law are under the curse: for it is written, Cursed is every one that continueth not in all things which are written in the book of the law to do them. 11 But that no man is justified by the law in the sight of God, it is evident: for, The just shall live by faith. KJV
Gal 4:31 Christ is become of no effect unto you, whosoever of you are justified by the law; ye are fallen from grace. KJV
>Sea wrote: BTW, Paul preached that the law had not become void by faith and grace.
> Romans 3:31
> (31) Do we then overthrow the law by this faith? By no means! On the
> contrary, we uphold the law.
FRED COMMENTS: The context of Rom 3:31 will show that it is the law of faith that was established. Note the following per Rom 3:27-31 27 Where is boasting then? It is excluded.
By what law? of works? Nay: but by the law of faith. 28 Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law. 29 Is he the God of the Jews only? is he not also of the Gentiles? Yes, of the Gentiles also: 30 Seeing it is one God, which shall justify the circumcision by faith, and uncircumcision through faith. 31 Do we then make void the law through faith? God forbid: yea, we establish the law. KJV
Moses law was the law of works. Those under the works of the law are under the curse, Paul says, "for it is written, Cursed is every one that continueth not in all things which are written in the book of the law to do them. "
So, the law that Paul said they established was the law of faith, otherwise referred to as the law of Christ in Gal 6:2.
>Sea wrote: Peter also taught that some things Paul spoke of were
hard to fathom but are
> twisted by the unlearned and the lawless as are the other scriptures, yet
> will result in the destruction of the lawless. Lawless refers to those who
> do not observe the law in case you are unaware.
> 2 Peter 3:16-17
> (16) as also in all his letters, speaking in them of these things; in which
> are some things hard to be understood, which the unlearned and unstable
> pervert, as also they do the rest of the Scriptures, to their own
> destruction) . (17) Therefore, beloved, knowing beforehand, beware lest being led away
> with the error of the lawless, you fall from your own steadfastness.
FRED COMMENTS: No, Sea. Paul said that those who sought to observe and be justified by the law were fallen from grace. Peter is not discussing those who do not observe the law of Moses and was not advocating that they do so.
The word that appears in verse 17 above that the version you use (which version is that?) translates "lawless" is Strong's #113. That word appears in only one other place and that is in 2 Pet 2:7 which reads per 2 Peter 2:7 And delivered just Lot, vexed with the filthy conversation of the wicked: KJV
The men referred to as "wicked" above were the men of Sodom. Of those men, Lot said per Gen 19:7 And said, I pray you, brethren, do not so wickedly. KJV The wickedness being discussed related to their behavior, not what law they were under.
>Sea wrote: Christians convince themselves that the law is void. They also convince
> themselves that being under the law means being obedient to the law. But
> Peter and Paul and John say otherwise. Sin is transgression of the law so
> if there is no law there is no sin. But that is fooling
yourselves and all
> because you want to forget the only commandment God began with remember.
> Well go for it Fred. You don't answer to me.
FRED COMMENTS: Those who listen to the inspired writers of the NT are convinced by what it says. Again, relating to the law, Paul says per Gal 3:10-11 10 For as many as are of the works of the law are under the curse: for it is written, Cursed is every one that continueth not in all things which are written in the book of the law to do them. 11 But that no man is justified by the law in the sight of God, it is evident: for, The just shall live by faith. KJV. Peter and John do not say otherwise. If they did, they would be contradicting Paul, and they simply do not do so.
Weymouth does a better job of translating 1 John 3:4. Here it is per 1
John 3:4 Every one who is guilty of sin is also guilty of violating Law; for sin is the violation of Law.
There is no definite article (the) before law in the text. Any violation of law results in sin. You are certainly correct to say that where there is no law, there is no sin. (Rom 4:15, 5:13)
Man has always been under law since the beginning, since Adam and Eve and all those before Moses' law was given became guilty of sin.
Moses law was given to the Israelites alive that day in Mt Horeb and transgression of Moses' law resulted in sin.
Je sus obeyed that law perfectly, thus becoming the perfect, sinless sacrifice necessary to abolish it.
Upon Jesus' death on the cross, He established His law, the law of Christ. All men since Jesus established His law have been under it and transgression of Jesus' law results in sin.
I do not seek to "go for it". I seek
to obey the law of Christ, the gospel of the grace of God, for I know that I cannot be justified by the works of the law of Moses.
Notice who that law was given to per Deut 5:1-3 1 And Moses called all Israel, and said unto them, Hear, O Israel, the statutes and judgments which I speak in your ears this day, that ye may learn them, and keep, and do them. 2 The Lord our God made a covenant with us in Horeb. 3 The Lord made not this covenant with our fathers, but with us, even us, who are all of us here alive this day. KJV
According to Moses, who did the Lord make that covenant with? Were you there?
Read the context to see what that covenant said.
I respectfully ask, are you still convinced that you are obligated to follow that covenant?
Serving the Master,
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Fred Gosnell"
> To: TruthorTradition@ yahoogroups. com
> Sent: Monday, March 09, 2009 5:17 AM
> Subject: [TruthorTradition] Re: Scripture
> Hi Sea,
> It is likewise my duty to teach what the gospel of Christ says.
> Paul wrote this to the Galatians who were following a different gospel than
> that preached by the apostles of Christ.
> Note what he said per Gal 1:6-9 6 I am astonished that you are so quickly
> deserting him who called you in the grace of Christ and are turning to a
> different gospel- 7 not that there is another one, but there are some who
> trouble you and want to distort the gospel of Christ. 8 But even if we or an
> angel from heaven should preach to you a gospel contrary to the one we
> preached to you, let him be accursed. 9 As we have said before, so now I say
> again: If anyone is preaching to you
a gospel contrary to the one you
> received, let him be accursed.
> Serving the Master,