[Tim wrote] ... Tim, this is an excellent effort, in attempting to communicate such a subtle experience. If I may add, I ve found that stepping back into theMessage 1 of 4 , Nov 3, 1999View Source[Tim wrote]
>.But our true nature is not that of the mind, but that of the Atman. So theTim, this is an excellent effort, in attempting to communicate such a subtle
>thing to do is to "step back" and observe the mind as it chatters. Become
>the witness of thoughts, simply observing thoughts without either
>attachment or rejection (I'm tempted to use the word "disinterested," but
>that's not quite the correct word). Through nonattachment to thought, the
>mind is deprived of its "fuel," so to speak, and will quiet of itself. And
>when the mind grows quiet, the pure Atman can be seen as the bottom of a
>pond can be seen when the water grows still.
If I may add, I've found that stepping back into the witness position is
if there is at first - an observation and understanding of our actual
defensive strategy. We must notice that we are always avoiding or denying a
fundamental truth of ourselves - that we are no-thing or no-body. From the
of the mind this seems undesirable and some of us just can't accept that.
Our constant thinking process is just that - hiding from this basic truth, that
no-self, we seem constantly need to remind ourselves that we are somebody.
We become a perpetual chatterbox, even when thinking is not necessary.
Indeed this can lead to insanity and unnecessary pain and suffering, like an
that keeps running, overheats and explodes.
Hence we must SEE what our usual mental processes is doing to us and what
it prevents. What is prevented is abiding in Atman. When we SEE this, we just
stop doing that unconscious painful activity of ignoring the lager part of
ourselves and suddenly we are established into the Witness condition.
It is not even a question of stepping back or letting go or surrendering here,
The 'you' who is trying to step back, let go or surrender is itself the
Really that 'ego', 'you' , 'I' or 'me' really cannot surrender or wants to in
the first place.
This 'I' cannot surrender, it can BE surrendered though. No effort is required
to let go,
surrender or step back. Any such effort makes us more uptight and closed.
All that is required is awareness, insight and understanding; the rest follows.
It is like trying to open your fist, your hands. Any effort to open it, really
is another form
of closing your hands. When it is not closed it relaxes and opens
Anyway I thought I'd highlight this particular problem that cause seekers to be
infinitely within a loop.
namaste. Tim Gerchmez suggested in his initiation of this thread that we leave the mind alone, be as a witness to the thought process, see that the mind runsMessage 1 of 4 , Nov 4, 1999View Sourcenamaste.
Tim Gerchmez suggested in his initiation of this thread that we leave
the mind alone, be as a witness to the thought process, see that the
mind runs out of fuel and quieten down on its own. Ken Wilbur's essay
posted by Dave says the similar thing (or technique).
Both, while they are certainly insightful, still did not address the
basic point. The basic required thing, as I see, is citta shuddhi
(purity of the heart). I recognize Tim has addressed this requirement
in a separate post.
We can look at mind as an expression of the impurity of the citta. If
the citta is pure, mind will not be there. We can see mind as simply a
perturbation (what I mean by perturbation is a second order effect) on
the equilibrium of the citta. If the citta is in perfect equilibrium,
there are no perturbations, and hence the mind does not exist. After
all, thoughts are only these perturbations. If we concentrate only
on the mind-process, we are treating the symptoms only and not the
main disease which lies with the citta.
How do we purify the citta and how important is it that we purify
citta? In my view, it IS the most important which a jeeva can do and
is also the ultimate that the jeeva can do in his "quest of realizing
the SELF". As has been stated on this List many times, we are quite
familiar with the kaTha upanishad statement that the SELF Knowledge
will dawn on such a person whom the SELF chooses. The jeeva does not
know when and if the SELF chooses to reveal Itself to Itself. The
best the jeeva can do is to be ready with his/her equipment so that
he/she is prepared for the dawn of Knowledge. The pre-condition for
it is the purity of heart (citta-shuddhi) which is within the
How is this citta-shuddhi achieved? The impurities that are the
mind are the gross emotions, the six great enemies of the human:
kAma (desire), krodha (anger), lobha (miserliness), moha (passion),
mada (pride), mAtsarya (jealousy). They upset the citta and disturb
the balance. The first step in the purification of the citta is to
recognize these six enemies as harmful; and if any thought enters
the mind derived from these gross passions, we should immediately
throw that thought out. If we do not entertain thoughts based on
these wrong passions, we are well on our way to citta shuddhi.
So that we do not have a noisy mind, which is a result of lack
of citta shuddhi, the following pro-active steps by the jeeva
would be very useful
step 1: recognize the great enemies (kAma, krodha etc ) and do not
entertain any thoughts based on these gross emotions
step 2: overcome other impurities that cloud the mind like prejudices,
misconceptions, doubts, superstitions, by cultivating the right
step 3: recognize the virtues that are opposite to these six great
enemies and cultivate these virtues
These are actions which the jeeva can do, the result of which is
a quietened mind. Witness attitude, not only towards the mind
but toward everything that goes around us will be the result of
such a pure heart.
In a message dated 11/4/99 5:45:56 PM Pacific Standard Time, ... Sri Chaitanne Mahaprabhu (Gaurangadev ) Says in his Sikshastak: ChetodarpanamarjanamMessage 1 of 4 , Nov 7, 1999View SourceIn a message dated 11/4/99 5:45:56 PM Pacific Standard Time,
> How is this citta-shuddhi achieved? The impurities that are theSri Chaitanne Mahaprabhu (Gaurangadev ) Says in his Sikshastak:
> mind are the gross emotions, the six great enemies of the human:
> kAma (desire), krodha (anger), lobha (miserliness), moha (passion),
> mada (pride), mAtsarya (jealousy). They upset the citta and disturb
> the balance.
Chetodarpanamarjanam Vavamahadawagni Nirwapanam
Srea:Kairavachandrikabitaranam Bidyabadhujivanam .
Anandabudhibardhanam Pratipadam Purnamritaswadanam,
Sarwatmanaspanam param Vijayate SriKrsna SANKIRTAM. 1
Namnamakari bahuda Nija sarvasakti
Strarpita Niyemita Smarne na kala.
Yetahasi taba kripa Bhagwonmawapi
Durdaivamidrisamiajani Nanuraga. 2.
Trinadapi Sunichena Taroriwa Sahisnuna
Amanino Manadena Kirtanada Sada Hari. 3.
(Sorry , my english is not good enough to translate properly)