Shree Hari Ram Ram This brings closure to this topic. Thank you all! Gita Talk Moderators, Ram Ram ============================================= ShreeMessage 1 of 8 , May 6, 2012View SourceShree Hari Ram Ram
This brings closure to this topic. Thank you all!
Gita Talk Moderators, Ram Ram
>>> worshipping the perishable, ever changing body,meditating on inert, and forsaking the worship of the eternal, imperishable, divine, transcedental form of God, not only results in a waste of our lives, but also causes a major deceit and delusion in us.Can this statement be clarified further? I know religious groups which engages in worshiping perishable body of guru and claiming their guru to be best. Such people also engage in bhajans. Outwardly, it may appear that they are helping us in bhajan. How should one relate to them?
At His feet in service,
Shree Hari Ram Ram
Please read the following from Swamiji's Will (Ek Sant ki Vasiyat). It will answer a number of questions for you.
A HUMBLE REQUEST
It is only due to the extreme grace of Almighty God
that the soul acquires a human body. Its only purpose is
attaining God. But, after obtaining this body, human
being tends to forget his original purpose and gets firmly
attached to the body and starts believing in bodily
pleasures as being ultimate. By giving power and
importance to the body, he starts relating to it and hence
is so attracted to it that its name too becomes dear to
him. Of all the bodily pleasures, the most menial is
respect-seeking. To attain this, he also indulges in vices
like falsehood, cunningness and dishonesty. Due to the
love for his body, he desires its praise and compliments
from others. He desires to seek self praise through-out
his life and wishes that after his death, his name and fame
remains eternal. He tends to forget that the name given
to this body for worldly convenience does not have any
existence whatsoever after the body perishes. In light of
this, body worshipping, respect-seeking and eternity of
name is of least importance. But due to widespread inner
desire for bodily respect and eternity of name and fame,
humans behave in such a manner, not only with himself
and his near and dear ones, but also with those who are
the knowledgeable and thus following the righteous path
shown by the esteemed scholars and the scriptures trying
to attain their ultimate goal of being one with the
Almighty. What more can be said when the body of such
an enlightened one dies, but in order to continue their
remembrance, their body is captured in pictures and with
all the pomp and decorations (garlands etc.) the body is
taken to the cremation ground. In order to immortalize
the mortal name, they erect edifices like structures in the
form of memorials. In addition to this, they write
exaggerated and one-sided incidents of the deceased
being and publish them in the form of biographies and
remembrances. On one side, they call themselves
followers of that enlightened one and on the other do
exactly the thing that he deterred in life!
The essence of belief is immortal. Hence, the
belief must be on the principle and worlds of such
enlightened one and not on mortal body or name. There
is only desire and not belief in the mortal body and name.
But such misdeeds happen only when desires take the
garb of beliefs. Hence, giving undue importance to mortal
bodies and in deterring to worship and praise that eternal,
immortal, divine and immaculate Almighty Being not
only makes our life useless but it also is a great ditching of
If seen in its true perspective, this body is only a
machine producing urine and excretion. Given the best of
foods or even "prasad" of God, it shall leave the body
through excretion and given the best of drinks or even
water of holy Gang, the same will be passed out as urine.
This body is excretion and urine producing machine till
the time there is life and once the death prevails, even
touching it requires bathing. In reality, this body is dying
every moment. The real and authentic consciousness
which is present in the body cannot be captures in
pictures. Only the body that is decaying every second
can be pictured. That is why the body also does not
remain the same as it was, while the picture was taken.
Hence, worship of photograph is worship of "ASAT"
(that which is not there). In the photograph, the body
remains lifeless, so the picture of this lifeless collection of
bones and tissues is more lifeless than the dead body
Those whom we term as Mahatma the enlightened
one are Mahatma because of their total renouncement
of the bodily pleasures and not because of their
attachment to it. They consider this body as excretory
matter. Hence, showering respect over Mahatma's body is
like respecting excretory matter! Is this right? If
someone says that just like we worship God's
photograph, what s wrong in worshipping a Mahatma's
photograph? Then saying this is also not apt because
God's body is divine and immortal, while that of that of
Mahatama is made of destructible and perishable matters
that we call "panch-tattva". God is Omnipresent, hence
He is there - present in the photographs also. But
omnipresence (other than body) of Mahatma is due to
omnipresence of the God Himself. God encompasses all
the Mahatmas; hence worship of God includes
worshipping of all the Mahatmas. Hindrance shall be
created in worship of God if the body and photographs
of Mahatmas are worshipped and this is strictly against the
very principles of Mahatmas. A Mahatma has come to this
world to guide the people to God and not towards
himself. The one who guides the people to himself (for
worship) is anti-god. In fact, a Mahatma is never limited
to a body.
Actual biography is the one which depicts factual
matters, meaning which puts forth the good and bad facts
(virtues and vices) of life in a most truthful ways. Only
the person himself can know the factual incidents of his
life. Others shall only derive estimates about it as per
their own intellect and this is often not true. The
biographies that are written nowadays, more so hides the
faults and vices and depicts only unwarranted virtues.
Hence they are actually not the factual, complete and real
depiction. In fact, where can we find a better
biographical character sketch of any other, than Marayada
Purshottam Sri Ram? Hence, his biography and character
sketch must be heard and read and our life must be
molded and lived in accordance with it. We must try and
live our life in accordance with advice and principles of
those whom we consider as Mahatma.
After thinking on the points mentioned earlier, I
would like to humbly make a request to all my acquainted
Saints and good people. I have made the points on a
personal level, meaning that I have prohibited my
photographs, pictures, memorials, biographies etc. The
sole purpose of this article is to clearly state as to what
shall be your duties towards this body at the time when I
have become physically unfit and my body had finally
to read the remaining visit -
Gita Talk Moderators, Ram Ram
shree hari ram ram
PLEASE LISTEN TO FEW RESPONSES TO QUESTIONS BY SWAMIJI WHEN ASKED ABOUT GURU :
Attached some very good links related to Guru / Sat Guru
KYA GURU BINA MUKTI NAHIN in HINDI
"Is Salvation Not Possible without a Guru?" You may view a few of the chapters at:
Sadhak message links on Guru are at :
What is a True Spiritual Guide like?
Gita's View on Guru - Part I & II
Who is the Real Guru?
Is it Essential for a Guru to be a Self Realized Soul ?
On Guru Disciple Relationship
On Guru - Sishya
Is it not Essential to Engage in Guru Disciple Relationship ?
Worship of Guru - Part 1
Worship of Guru - Part 2
On Having Lost Faith in a Guru
God is Guru of this Universe
Sri Krishna is the Guru and Gita is the Mantra
Qualities of a True Spiritual Guide or Guru
Real Guru is your discrimination
There is no Sin in letting go of false Guru
Who can be considered a Guru?
Gita Talk discussion links related to GURU are at:
How to recognize a Satguru
Guru Related Questions
Please Help - My huge Dilemma about a Guru - as I am in association of a Group
Can a Woman Make Someone a Guru?
Can There Be No Liberation Without a Guru ?
Guru Worship related
Gita Talk Moderators,
Re 'Sophia said -- "and if it is stated anywhere in scripture i take exception
and deem it not
the word of God but of a male incarnation that is not enlightened."
Self is neither male or female. Our true nature is independent of gender. Please
and ignore the sexist statements.'
It is a fair statement.
Re ' No male sadhu or ascetic or 'Guru' is allowed by Scriptures to
make females as their disciples.' Fine which scriptures? I always when debating
a point will
support or expand a point by sighting any relevant scriptures, Veda, whatever,
you know that
sadhaks, so please lets have a look at these scriptures, let's put them under
In this mantra of Brahmcharya Sukta, it is emphasized that girls too should
train themselves as students and only then enter into married life. The Sukta
specifically emphasizes that girls should receive the same level of training as
(Book: Mera Dharma, Author: Priyavrat Vedavachaspati, Gurukul Kangri University)
Chapter 1: Women in Vedic Dharma, Page 8
Girls should train themselves to become complete scholars and youthful through
Brahmcharya and then enter married life.
(Atharvaveda-Hindi Bhashya, Part 2, Author: Kshemkarandas Trivedi, Sarvadeshik
Sabha, Delhi, Page 413-414)
I have read a lot of stuff on the rights of woman in the Vida they have are
same as the male.
Note 'emphasizes that girls should receive the same level of training as boys.'
So gere we have
the top authority over all else, I have read the actual verses there's no room
Om ... Shant ...
Child is son of man. The way he grows ultimately becomes the civilization. And it is the mother who is guru of any child. Role of woman is unquestionable and above assessment.
Just as a sadhaka is unspoken, similarly guru is unspoken. Has anyone been able to see the self?The self is also unspoken. the body that we had all been seeing, which then turned to ashes in the fire, was that Swamiji? No! that was the body that was bound to die. That body is no longer there, but Swamiji's will remain with us at all times, he presence is felt and experienced every single moment and ti will continue to remain. If a sadhak does not experience his presence at all times, then it is a different story.
Jis tarah saadhaka avyakta hotaa hai, usee tarah guru bhee avyakta hotaa hai. Kyaa koee swayanko dekh paayaa hai? Swayana bhee avyakt hotaa hai. Jis shareerako ham sabhee dekhate rahe aur jo agnimen bhasma ho gayaa, kyaa vah swaameejee the? Naheen, vah to maranasheel shareer maatra thaa. Vah ab naheen hai parantu swaameejee to har pal hamaare saath hain aur rahenge. Yadi kisee saadhakako unakaa saath anubhootimen naheen ho to baat aur hai.
Grooming children a personal opinion
The question put forth by GB regarding grooming children is a bit intriguing to me. I come across such parental ambitions to make their children their rubber-stamps quite often! If the parents could influence their offsprings to what they wanted imagine what the world would be?! The more the parents try to influence the children, the more confused they would probably turn out! Brainwashing them in any manner would do more harm than any good. They would loose their independent appreciation of the world if they succumb to the parents' brainwashing and hence will be bonded to the same emotional baggage that the parents are bogged down with! OR, they would adopt a completely opposite emotional baggage if they choose to revolt the parents!! Either way, emotional baggage is successfully inherited!!!
There two things: one to expose the children to healthy environment; two to let them bloom to be independent individuals on their own. It is of paramount importance to enable them learn and absorb healthy information from their environment however filthy it might be perceived as. Making them think on their own and for their own benefit is the ideal way to go since it provides them an opportunity to explore the depths of life on their own to their own limits. Firsthand experience is THE BEST in all explorations - whether geographical excursions or social relations or spiritual revelations. Therefore, enabling the person to explore and experience life in order to enrich one's innate qualities is of primary importance.
Therefore, to me, (1) cultivating freedom of thoughts and actions and (2) nurturing sincere and transparent relationships sounds the best way to deal with our children, or anybody else as a matter of fact. Afterall, everyone is individually responsible to be whatever one turns out to be. Then let that happen with respectful freedom on the children's side and unbiased guidance from the parents' side ... as much as possible ...
Again KarmaNye vaadhikaaraste maa phaleshu kadaachana no matter what you try, the results need not conform to any expectations. Remember, the children are also exposed to n-number of factors of various shades and backgrounds they are free to pickup whatever they perceive ... and, they will pick up what sounds right and congenial to them ... FINALLY, one authors one's individual signature oneself! Therefore, what the child picks up in parents' absence is of significance. If you strengthen the core confidence of the child nurturing its independent thinking abilities ... probabilities are brighter on what the child would choose in your absence.
A Samarth or complete Guru
is actually lives in a state of
His physical body remains a
temporary residence as after death
the enlightened one
Divya Jad ansh.
In physical Jad ansh his
Thus after death true Guru
attains the wholesome divya sarir
divya Jad ansh
all five divya prakash
symbolized by panchjanya conch
blown by Lord Krishna in Gita..
"Dr. Puneet Gupta"
Thanks everyone for your response.
Everything is manifestation of Vaasudeva and therefore, one is supposed to treat everyone with love, care, respect and without envy. The problem happens when this is applied in the wrong way. For example, I have seen one spiritual organisation using the same principle to worship gurus and their leaders but they treat those who disagree with them with contempt and hate. That is inconsistent application of this principle and it is cheating or pretension. If "vasudeva sarvam" is truly applied, then everyone is worthy of love, respect and service (not just guru).
Swami Ramsukhdasji teaches us to accept the truth. This truth always exist. I (and everyone) am eternal, full of knowledge and bliss. I am part of Krishna and not part of this world. I should accept this truth and help my family members to accept it. Material circumstances like people around us will keep on changing. I should accept what stays and does not change i.e. self's true nature which is part of Krishna.
At His feet in service,
Binu satsangh vivek na hoi; Ram kripa binu sulabhan soi
i am from Guyana,South America.According to the tantra yoga,Guru is god in flesh!!God uses the
pancha tattva and takes human body to teach humanity through his amsa avatars!!
This is in response to a question from a sadhak, regarding the GURU.
Arjuna addresses Krishna in
" Pitasi lokasya caracarasya,
Tvam asya pujyas ca gurur gariyan,
Na tvat samo styabhyadhikah kutonyo,
Loka traye py apratima prabhava. "
( Gitaji 11, 43)
' You are the father of this cosmic manifestation, the moving and non moving. You are the father, worshipable supreme, teacher, teacher's teacher, the supreme master. Nobody is equal to you. How can anybody be superior to you within the three worlds, O lord of immense and immeasurable power. '
Lord Krishna is the supreme Guru. The way to attain Him is through devotional service.
Joining a Satsang, helps us get there.
Prasad. A. Iragavarapu, MD
Sophia said -- "and if it is stated anywhere in scripture i take exception and deem it not the word of God but of a male incarnation that is not enlightened."
Self is neither male or female. Our true nature is independent of gender. Please understand this and ignore the sexist statements.
At His feet in service,
Yes. Worshipping and reaching the abode of God is the ultimate desire but,
Guru is the one who will help you to see that path.
Sri Krishna is the Ultimate Supreme God - not just Guru.
Please see also Rukmani Kalyanam in Srimad Bhagavatham..
When you get an illness, you know you need medicine
and all medicines are available in the pharmacy / dru store, but still it will be the duty
of the Doctor and Pharmacist to assist you to choose the right one for you..
Ishta Devatha and Adikara are two pillars of Hindu Dharma
You choose the Isht Devatha but your guru teaches and
enlightens you for proper adhikara.
In this, that Guru is still the means to go and reach God, and
that guru, however much you worship, will never become God, the Supreme,
and not even an Avathara of God, but just a guide and teacher.
With kind regards to all,
Bala N. Aiyer
Radhey ! Radhey !!
Yes Dear Sophia ! No male sadhu or ascetic or 'Guru' is allowed by Scriptures to
make females as their disciples. The Scriptures are very categorical on this.
Actually, Guru under Scriptures has to be a realised soul himself and should
have no reason to make disciple except for his emancipation. Actually, for a
human there is NO need to search for any Guru at all. But times are such that
people exploit the human's 'belief' and run their 'shops'. Precisely therefore
this Forum has the policy of not parting with the email ids. Otherwise you will
find 'shopkeepers' reaching all questioners also. This is the only Forum where
the correct information about Scriptures/ Guru is at least till now available.
Yardstick: Any person who directly or indirectly says Guru is necessary or
desirable: Beware of him. He is CHEAT. Because where is need for him to say so?
This is not my yardstick, this is yardstick of Swamiji Ramsukhdasji Maharaj.
Never get enticed in the snares of such cheats. Scriptures are categorical on
this. NEVER NEVER believe those who directly or indirectly say: Guru is
necessary for your emancipation. NEVER become any one's disciple. Become of
Krishna. Say fearlessly: MERE TO GIRDHAR GOPAL, DOOSARO NA KOI !!
Love you, Divine Sister
Radhey ! Radhey !!
Alignment with Truth : alignment with an idea
Now and then, there has been very rigorous and passionate debates on this forum discarding or chastising certain participants arguing that "the fellow is not in-line with Swamiji's teaching or Lord KrishNa's revelations". It is unfortunate that a truthful seeker of the truth is being chastised again. Pratapji, please continue to participate as you are one of the very few truthful seekers of the truth I have ever witnessed.
A passionate alignment with any idea or line of thoughts/actions is the only INERT WORSHIP. Why? The idea is frozen losing all its freedom being captive within the clutches of the believer's beliefs and hence cannot come to life again! It has no life to help the beholder anymore!! It may even become a weapon against others who appear to think otherwise in the believer's opinion!!! The fact remains the same irrespective of the perceived source of such an idea - be it Bhagavadgita or Swamiji. On the other hand, if the seeker is sensible, the knowledge blooms even from the dirt. There is nothing that is INSENTIENT in the whole universe. Every atom has the sense of its presence and is graced with the sensibility to be as it ought to be. The only possible "insentient" that refuses to be dynamic in this ever-dynamic creation is one's stubborn ignorance ... one's unbending predisposition to a preconceived belief and fierce insistence to hang on to the same.
Swamiji's very concern was this. In fact, he observes an extremely subtle and useful fact on such a behavior (refer to the recent postings on Guru). One who accepts somebody as "Guru" has a chance of missing the whole journey fooling oneself (often others as well) all the time, "My Guru says this! He knows everything!! Then, I should be correct!!!" The poor fellow does not even realize that he has absolutely no clue of what he means, far from what the truth would mean. Often, a "Guru" or a "Swamiji" or a "God" is "used" only to evade any opposition to oneself, one's own beliefs in other words. Worse than that, the "Guru" is abused to promote one's own image. Swamiji truthfully warns NOT TO GET ALIGNED WITH ANY IDEA OR SPECIFICITY PER SAY! Therefore, in my imagination, he would prefer a truthful and knowledgeable difference of opinion to a deceitful and ignorant agreement.
Therefore, judging any utterance from any truth seeker from the point of a pre-conceived idea is neither sane nor wise. Alignment with THE TRUTH is of essence. If one finds it hard, seeking guidance is the way to reach the abode of The Truth of course, not to be stuck with the guide one happens to seek guidance with. When you are lost, you seek directions to get back home by asking one or many. Need is to get directions; and the purpose is to get back home. All guidance is truthfully kept at highest regard. But, getting home is of essence. If the fellow develops a great fascination to one of the guiding element on the way ... one is stuck with the idolized guide ... home remains distant ... TRUTH remains distant ...
Therefore, ALIGNEMENT WITH THE TRUTH IS OF ASSENCE if alignments with ideas and teachings on the way help one's alignment with THE TRUTH, it is wonderful. Unless, the seeker can appreciate an idea truthfully, the idea remains useless as it fails to indicate The Truth to the perceiver; if held by force or insistence, it even becomes a hurdle. The hurdle has to be discarded, circumvented or destroyed to move forward ... even if it is tagged to a saint's or a Godhead's name!
Truthfulness remains above all in the search of THE TRUTH. All the rest are respectfully acknowledged ONLY to align and re-align oneself toward one's very home, THE TRUTH.
Krishna NEVER looks at the worthiness or deservingness of disciple . Hence KRISHNAM VANDE JAGATGURUM.
Om Namah Shivay
If student is good, then teacher will be good and if the student is bad then teacher will be bad, has no logic or justification or rationale at all. The trait of a student is "obedience". Once a student is obedient (you have to presume that because otherwise where is Guru/Disciple bonding?) , it is squarely the responsibility of Teacher to correct him. If a teacher cant do that, for whatever reason , including the reason of student being bad, it is Guru who is bad not student.
Another example from Ramayana where the importance of "flesh, bone & carbon" is
not cast aside.
Kaakbhushundiji retains the body of a crow even today, as he loves the
instrument through which he realized the truth. He doesn't even harbors
ill-feelings toward the guru who cursed him to become crow. Kaakbhushundiji
exist even today in his crow form and worshipped as guru by many devotees.
So the inference that only cow body can be guru and not crow, only brahmin is
worshippable and not chandaal is misleading. Gratitude towards one who showed
you the way. Would one mind showing gratitude to a chandaal who helped one
getting out of woods, if one gets lost by accident?
Though Ramayana is written in a way rishis, bhilani, kevat or monkeys show their
devotion towards Rama, but we shouldn't forget the kind of love Rama also
showered on them as they showed him the way forward.
They(brahmins to lower castes) became his guru in jungle.
The body is the tool, the instrument given to us to realize that unperishable.
Bowing before the Guru's feet (made of flesh, body & carbon) helps to remove the
ego in us. The amount of benefit we get by bowing before the perishable who
gives us the direction is immense and can't be achieved by just meditating on
A person who is meditating on just Guru element and look down upon bowing before
the live gurus(made of flesh, body & carbon) in our life(parents, teachers or
whoever shows us the right direction in any sphere of life) is only increasing
his ego and falling into deeper ignorance. Thats exactly what happened to
shankracharya once when he started meditating on Shankar (imperishable/formless)
alone and forgot the importance of shakti(the form of formless). He realized
later the essence of shakti also and became a realized soul.
Having said that, every person is gifted with conscience and viveka to
appreciate whats right or wrong direction for him/her. If we are going from
Delhi to Mumbai and lose way, it doesn't mean everyone who we seek direction
from is a thug. Though there may be some thugs also on the way who would rather
try to dupe us. But just because of those few, labeling everyone on the way from
Delhi to Mumbai as a thug is an extreme.
When we feel so much gratitude towards a person who shows us the direction from
delhi to mumbai, why shouldn't we bow or worship the live guru who show us the
direction from death to immortality, from darkness to light.
The sadhaks, in this regard, may refer to an elaborate compilation made by Mike Keenor in near past on the subject of Idol Worship where he had elaborately picked many references from Vedas and Smritis , clearly demonstrating that Sanatan Dharma does not approve worship of inert. Gita too is very categorical on the subject. The latest message of Prasad Iragavarapu is indicator of what Gita says. Prasad Iragavarapu is right.
We should take a call as to what this Forum stands for? One of the guidelines of this Divine Forum is that the responders shall commit to read Gita themselves. Each regular contributor should recheck with himself whether he is abiding to this guideline. There is no oint in being lengthy and wordy unless you conform to Scriptures. If this Forum is to retain its originality, authenticity, respect and status. it MUST adhere to Scriptures, Gita and Shraddheya Maharajji. I have seen that while no body talks directly against the views of Maharajji, but some without even reading His views seriously start giving their contradictory views. They can do so, but whenever they are contradicting what Maharajji has stated, they MUST elaborately give reasons. This is the minimum courtesy they must give to that Mahatma who till today is the soul of this Forum. It should NEVER be forgotten that this Forum continues to be dedicated to His views. But as clouds of Kaliyuga get denser, we shall see paradigm shift here too. Maharajji Himself said few months before His retun to Param Pad: Even the books published by Gita Press Gorakhpur shall tend to become extinct. I am clearly perceiving tilt of that trend here also. I pray to Almighty that Divine Forums like this are spared the clutches of opposite winds. It is duty of all of us to come out strongly at such hour, and it is duty of Moderators also to give equal weightage to views expressed by all.
Specificity in one's Guru why not "flesh & bone"?!
There has been debate regarding whether one SHOULD accept ONLY UNIVERSAL GURU or to move forward with a respectable entity that is easily accessible. I see that the former is vehemently promoted while the later is rejected. Fair enough. In an ideal situation conceived in its own way, the expectation is RIGHT. In any case, if the studenthood does not ripen to the former maturity, it remains futile however. There is no second thought about that.
But, how one visualizes the Guru and realizes the truth there-of need not be unique. I relate Vinayaka's story again here. Vinayaka chose not to move to realize the truth in Shiva while his brother travelled all through the world to realize the same. Neither are wrong. One may visualize and realize the truth in a particle that is available immediately. One may search and research all around to visualize and realize the truth that is universal. Can the truth in a particle and in the universe be different?! In that case, I am afraid, I would have to dismiss both as both have neither visualized a Guru nor realized The Truth.
I agree with Swamiji and all other proponents of similar views that STUDENTHOOD IS ESSENTIAL IN THE PROCESS OF REALIZATION. In fact, it is correct in all aspects of learning! Guru is just an eventuality to a true student. Yet, if a truthful student visualizes The Guru in a being bound in skin, flesh and bones and realizes THE TRUTH thereof ... I do not see any abnormality or inferiority there. It is perfectly sane and wise to seek Guru in a human being for a true learner. Swamiji IS IN FACT Guru for many of the participants in this forum. The knowledge that passed through a "flesh & bone" entity has reached so many effectively. Transcending the body of the Guru is one thing. Having reverence to the same body as well, is another thing. Afterall, that body served the gateway to a truthful disciple. The reverence shown to his words and ideas are clear indications of how such an existential body is subconsciously and respectfully accepted as Guru. To me, specific words and ideas are just extension of the associated physical body :). At the same time, all the words are as cosmic as the associated body. Either consider both as specific or both as cosmic ... mix & match to one's convenience is neither sane nor wise!
In fact, any being or even inert entities are perfectly sane and wise choice for a true learner. The Avadhuta of Bhagavata (KrishNa's second great Gita, Avadhuta Gita) learns from fundamental elements of existence such as space and air, from animals such as deer and fish, even from insects such as Bhramara, from tress and stones ... anything and everything. The Avadhuta accepts each of them as his Guru. For a truthful student anything is as sane and wise as everything as well as nothing. Therefore, I do not see the need for insistence against one's choice of Guru in a "flesh & bone" being.
THE ALL-PERVASIVE TRUTH is verily available anywhere and everywhere. If one lands in a "flesh & bone" teacher to realize the same, so be it! If one wants to appreciate the whole universe for the same, so be it!! If one pursues absolute silence seeking the same in nothing, so be it!!! Seeking is essential ... how and where is of secondary relevance. But, one WILL SUCCEED to attain The Truth however and wherever sought as far as the student retains the absolute integrity of studenthood ever.
I apologise if my observations as to the inert is not worshippable as per Scriptures has annoyed you all. I am too new in this Forum
Regarding Vasudeva Sarvam, Yes , Fire is also Vasudev, but will any Scripture advice you to jump into it? Such a common sense thing.
let us not exhibit raag and dvesha, ahankaar, frustration, disappointment, resentment etc. Be a teacher as well as student. We learn from even an enemy.
Please...! I with folded hands request you to keep writing, keep discussing, keep correcting us and keep getting yourself corrected.
Om Namah Shivay
As I understand, the inert is not worshipable nor these self proclaimed Gurus are worshipable nor any ghosts or stones are worshipable. Gita says in 17:4 - Sattwiks worship Gods, Rajasic worship yakshas and rakshashas and tamasik worship ghosts and spirits. Why does Gita say so? To what effect? So that you dont worship ghosts and spirits, you worship God only. Because if you worship ghosts, you may become ghost. If you are tamasic , you get into ignorance zone.
Here are some personal thoughts as to how 1 Your real Guru is Krishna / Viveka 2 Guru searches you, you don't search Guru: When fruit will be ripe , parrot will come effortlessly 3 Guru is an element not a person made of flesh and bones 4. Chella is important in spirituality NOT Guru.
Here , there is no denying fact that GURU IS NEEDED ! You NEED Guru. There comes then Divine view of Swamiji: Entire Jagat is Guru for a worthy chella. Any person made of flesh and bones is insignificant there, the element emerging therefrom is significant.
Now pay attention, Divine Sadhaks !
Primary is chella not Guru ! It is for this reason that Gita says: Self only can emancipate Self. Had it been in the hands of Guru to emancipate you, you have had so many good Mahatmas in the universe at all times that none of us would have remained bondaged. Param Shraddheya Swamiji Ramsukhdasji Maharaj once made very soul touching observation about Mahatmas : ' How can a Mahatma ( I ) be happy , if even a single soul in this universe is bondaged ? ' !!!
No Guru can help you if you do not have 'lagan' (ardent desire) and if you have earnest desire, either no Guru is needed or all become your Guru...!! How ? Because Laws of Nature start supporting your cause. The very Viveka converts into Guru and so do all that surround you. When your goal is emancipation, the Nature's Laws unite to help you whole heartedly for following reasons : 1 You are attuned now to the very purpose for which you were granted human birth. 2 Because God has made Jagat for Jeeva, and Jeeva for Himself. 3 There is unity of your goal with the goal of Laws of Nature. All laws of nature are made with one exclusive object: To get you disconnected from Jagat, and connected with Jagdish ! Law of Karma accelerates and starts giving you very fast results.
When your goal gets united with the goal of the Laws of Nature- The circumstances, situations, incidences (both favourable and adverse) on one hand, and all people around you including your enemies, children, parents, relatives, friends, guests, acquaintances, employers, employees , on other hand...all as a law all start helping you in your goal - intentionally or unintentionally- irrespective of whether they are your friends or enemies, or whether they have good or bad intentions or they are individually right or wrong !
When Law of Karma accelerates, naturally then adversities get more likely to visit you at every possible opportunity. Every person you will meet will aid in breaking your 'aham' and 'mamta' ("me and mine" ). Adversities hit you with full force to get you leave 'desire for happiness' and when you get worried or become restless , favourableness visits you. Both, God's mercy (dayaa- favourableness) and benevolence (kripaa- adversities) form a tandem to help you. Every thing/person thus becomes Guru for you, including say even a child.
But this fact can be understood only by that person who has actually turned towards God. And whoever has turned towards Him, should never fail to realise this fact.
So adversities and sorrows become your Gurus...!! Most certainly adversities help many times more than favourableness of surroundings. Little wonder therefore that sadhaks encounter more challenging circumstances. Consider here the lives of majority of Bhaktas ! History is obvious. This fact is truth and is clearly meeting all the three golden yardsticks of establishing Truth: 1 Shruti 2 Yukti 3 Anubhuti ( Scriptures- history / logic or rationale / experience) !
Now a correct balance of Dayaa and Kripaa ( favourableness/adversity) can ONLY ONLY be ruthlessly meted out to you by Paramatma and by Laws of Nature alone - Hence KRISHNAM VANDE JAGADGURU (Krishna is Guru of all Jeevas in Jagat) ! No other can do that to you.
But favourableness of circumstances does not become experientially favourable to you unless you have VIVEKA guiding you. However favourable it may be, if you are not respecting your Viveka, it will turn out to be adverse for you, because as a law EVERYTHING CHANGES. This world ESSENTIALLY is DUKHALAYAM (abode of sorrow and sorrow only ) - it begins with sorrow and ends in sorrow INVARIABLY... Hence VIVEKA is your real GURU !
When Mother Nature unites with your goal of emancipation , it is by way of everything/person around getting seen/ experienced by you for your benefit only. It happens invariably. Your eye naturally gets set NOT on circumstances/situations but on Dayaa/ Kripa of Param Pita Parameshwar. What reaches you as Guru is this element. - Hence Guru is an element !!!
Now Divine Sadhaks read Gita 7:29 my way: JARA MARAN MOKSHAAY ( To get emancipated from sorrows/Jagat) , MAMASHRITYA YATANTI YE ( Take shelter of Me / see all circumstances as Dayaa/Kripa of Paramatma) - Krishnam Vande Jagadgurum ! Read also Gita 4:37 my way: For as the blazing fire turns the fuel to ashes, Arjuna, even so the fire of Knowledge turns all actions to ashes - Viveka is your Guru. And of course read Gita 10:11 my way: In order to bestow My COMPASSION ( Dayaa/Kripaa) on them, I (Krishna) , dwelling in their heart , dispel their darkness born of ignorance by illuminating lamp of Knowledge (Viveka) - Krishna/Viveka is your Guru !!!
Knowledge referred here gets illuminated , in other words, Viveka gets awakened. Who awakens Viveka? Krishna !! How ? Through His Compassion !!! How through Compassion ? Because compassion includes sorrows and satsanga. It is a law Divine Sadhaks that Viveka gets awakened by 1 Satsanga 2 Sorrows !!!
Both are elements , so is Viveka. Hence Guru is an element.
What Guru made of flesh and bones can do here?
Jai Shree Krishna
Vyas N B
Dear All, Namaste!
It seems some sadhakas have taken my posting out of context! Fair enough, let me clarify as I am asked.
The entire posting is the context to answer what is asked! Sadhakas are free to reject it! This is not to argue but to respectfully point out what is understood is consistent with scriptures and Swamiji's teaching, one more and perhaps last time!
For example, this is what I stated:
"Why not to worship God everywhere, excluding nothing, even perishable and in inert without any personal attachment? We can see through perishable and discover Imperishable right there.. Thus everything helps to take us our True Home, Vasudeva Servameti!" This is to be read with everything above it too!
In one sadhak's comment he quotes me stopping at ".Why not worship God everywhere excluding nothing...even persishable". But I am saying worship God in perishable and in inert w/o personal attachment. When attachment to anything of this world is given up, one is automatically worshiping God! That which attaches you is mind to the objects of its own likes and dislikes. God liberates you from attachments!
Besides this, perishable/inert which is everything we know with senses and mind, is appearance only just as a wave arises in Water which is its Reality-Sat. Where can a wave exist outside of water? Water can exist without wave! Upanishad has the famous metaphor "Rope is seen as snake in twilight" meaning snake is mithya - non existing as seen but Really existing, rope-Sat. (Mithya is existence also, not absolute non-existence)
Actually in the entire world there is no Asat or Non-Existence, at all! Problem is that it is seen as something else by senses and mind which is non-existent as that object, but always existing as SAT! Reality is beyond mind, non-perceptible to all our cognitive faculties(Antahkarana), and yet Non-destructible Absolute EXISTENCE-SAT! You can check it out in your experience of NOW! What we experience through mind is called Mithya - ever-changing objects of mind, superimposed on ONE and ONLY Undivided SAT which is Awareness or Consciousness! True discrimination doesn't stop at knowing what is Inert/perishable from Imperishable which is not a mind's experience in the first place! It goes beyond and sees everything is Just ONE Sat - Imperishable, God, appearing as various forms of perishable objects as perceived by mind in ignorance!
This is the reason why I say worship God in and through everything, and not say worship everything as they are seen by mind and senses! You tell me where God is not? If with this understanding I reject inert as not being God, I am giving separate Reality to them apart from God, which I cannot digest!
These are not superficial words, if they are, then, they have no value and you can throw them out!
But if they ring a bell of Truth within you as they did upon pointed out to me and examined with open mind, then, it is a great blessing of Vasudeva only. This goes a long way towards understanding "Vasudeva Servameti"! I am surprised it is resisted here in the forum as often as it is said! According me, this is the Greatest message of Gita which is always relevant in all topics of Gita Vichara!
What can be more potent truth than to see that same objects of this world that can lead to suffering in our ignorance of taking them as real, now when understood as Vasudeva, a right perspective, can guide you to Vasudeva like a friend? Nothing and no one is enemy on our path to Vasudeva! In all our attachments w are attached to Vasudeva only! Isn't that beautiful?
If after this explanation, most of my fellow sadhakas feel this is not consistent with Swamiji's teaching, then, with all humility, I will stop to post.
AAIIIIIIII this reply stating women should not be disciples???????
What? Where in Gods name does it state a female incarnation is not equal
spiritually to a male incarnation?
and if it is stated anywhere in scripture i take exception and deem it not
the word of God but of a male incarnation that is not enlightened.
one of the two actually is better option. Better option is to make them read Gita/Ramayana at home, talk with them, do bhajan/keertan at home and give them the books of Swamiji Ramsukhdasji Maharaj for study. In the night,run the CDs of His pravachans for a fixed period. Swamiji's vaani has special magical touch. If you hear hHim for a couple of times, you become addicted to His vaani.
Swamiji has written extensively on the Gita, social conduct, easy methods of realisation, etc. Discuss with them practical aspects of sadhana. Set examples yourself by constantly studying His literature. Put them into practice, soon they will find those principles to be very interesting. makle them ADDICTED to this Gita Talk Forum. Here a lot of Qs of varied nature keep coming. ask their views, encourage them to respond.
Be very particular for festivals. If you have younger children, specifically celebrate occassions like Ganesha, Govinda, Diwaali etc. Make your home itself a temple, where certain festivity is always present. Sometime Navaanha parayan of Ramayana, sometime keertans, sometime bhajans...sometime Thakurji's bhog...! Make each and every member a bhakta of Paramatma. Spend yourself time with them and do satsanga. Ensure in your home certain guidelines pertaining to eating, drinking, dressing, daily chors etc are always adhered. Your children should be encouraged to to do NAMASKAAR to elders religiously everyday morning. Ask bachelors girls to chant name of Mata Sita or Mata Kunti at least seven times in the morning.
Geeta educate us
a seeker has
A Samarth or complete Guru
is actually lives in a state of
His physical body remains a
temporary residence as after
death the enlightened one
attains the Divya sarir,singularity.
In physical Jad ansh
during his lifetime as master
Thus after death
attains the wholesome divya sarir
atam ansh by default is divya always
Thus serving and following and acquiring
the company of a complete spiritual master
is the only GREATEST OF ALL the Great
events that can happen in this human life
so donot leave a samarth Guru
as Pooran Guru is actually
a messenger of God
and after death is same as singularity of
Shish diyae to Guru Milae
to bhee sasta jaan
Jai Sat Gurudev
Jai Pad Sharnam
"Dr. Puneet Gupta"
It is true that bodies made of flesh and bones or inert is not worshipable on one hand; but it is also true that the world (jagat) is FIRST avataar of Paramatma. It is always true that Paramatma is worshipable. Logically therefore the world too is worshipable, though it is clearly inert/temporary/perishable. How then to reconcile? Sure..you can not worship chaandal in place of brahmin ; you can not drink milk of a bitch in place of that of a cow; you can not ride on dog in place of elephant... though all have God equally present therein. Now what to do? Scriptures say: Worship them by being 'samdarshina' (viewing them equally) but NOT by being 'samvartina' (dealing with them equally) ! Gita says: Worship them by doing your duty towards them. How divine ! How beautiful !! So simple solution ! See God in each of them but deal with them 'appropriately', based on Viveka ! That then keeps both 'viveka' and 'Vasudev Sarvam' alive. What a simple solution !!!
Dear GB - this is how you relate overall ! But when it comes to Guru, there are huge other issues/principles...just DO NOT establish Guru/chella relationship ...! In today's times, do not trust any Guru ...trust Viveka / Krishna ! Enough....!!!
Jai Shree Krishna
Vyas N B
This may be surprising but fact. Most scripts like Vivekachudamani, Gyanapana etc first says Namaskaram to Guru and then further written. Guru is like road direction board, but one should get direction from Guru the way to Mukthi and go on all by himself. If we observe, Sri Govinda Pada Guru of Adi Sankara was not much time with him. Kabir Doss guru was not with him for long.If you read Bible carefully, it says that in Kaliyug there will be hypocrites who will call themselves as Gods. The mistake lies with oneself NOT with them. Guru definition has to be seen first from scripts. The if a Guru qualities are as per definition then he is Sat Guru. Our ignorance is purchasing wrong material in wrong shop. Dont you blame yourself for selecting a shop like that. We get married (Not seeing sastras, Astrology, and blessings of elders), then divorce. You blame yourself. So also in this case you blame yourself because of ignorance about qualities of Guru.
Bhgavan Krishna or Sri Rama are forms of divines. One has to learn understand accept the teaching of Geetha then think of Sri Krishna. Suppose you daily garland, prostrate, do bajan, meditate on Sri Krishna idol, but never follow an atom of Sri Krishna teachings, the whole process of yours is waste. GOD is clearly said as "APPRAMEYAM". Prameyam is object. Aprameyam is NOT object. So God has to be only realized. Sri Vishnu took 9 Avathars and one to be Kalki. We have to live by principles of teachings, but NOT merely Adore a roop. GOD is Aroop. GOD is concept not roop. So is Guru cannot be adored whole life with his roop. Guru also who expects his disciples to be in his service on long term is NOT Guru.
Just for example NOT to disgrace: Many people attend classes at Coimbatore, as 1st stage, next stage etc. I questioned few who attended classes. They said that Guru lectures were wonderful. But these people keep speaking lies, disgrace wives/husband, take bribe. Lectures was wonderful- true. Any professional in science or maths or English lectures are wonderful. So also these Guru lectures are attracting. There is huge difference between a preacher and a teacher.
G.B. jee, you have said :
Here are 2 options regarding association in society --
First one is to associate with organisation which engages in worshiping perishable body of guru and claiming their guru to be best. They believe that other spiritual practitioners are inferior from them and their guru has directly come from Goloka Vrindavan to give them knowledge. Since these people are doing some sort of bhajan, one may feel good in their association. Due to teachings of Swami Ramsukhdasji, I may not accept their fanatic teachings. But my family members including kids can get easily influenced by them. If my family members are exposed to these people for long time, they will also start believing like them due to their continuous and strong preaching.
Second option is to associate with normal people around me. These people are religious and do puja. But they are not 100% person serious in bhakti. They appreciate religious practices but don't have deep interest in them. While talking, they don't always talk about bhakti but about other common dealings. This option puts more burden on me. I need to make sure that kids do some sadhana which will advance them spiritually. I need to help them accept that they are Krishna's and Krishna is theirs. Help them develop vivek so that they don't give importance to this world.
Which one is better option?
Answer is: None of the two. Because you observe deficiencies in both of them, you shall never find in any of the two what you are looking for there.
Radhey ! Radhey !!
The views of Swamiji Ramsukhdasji Maharaj on the topic of GURU are 'divine'
because they are revolutionary and STILL in conformity with principles/
teachings of Sanatan Dharma,its Scriptures and in particular of Gita etc.
One must understand first important terms as to what is inert, body,element,
worship,Guru,disciple, sentient, student, teacher, knowledge,learning etc etc
and many such allied terms in Scriptural/ Spiritual and truthful meanings !! It
is ONLY when you read Him earnestly that you know depth and truth of His
writings. His views are TIMELY always ! He is a 'kaarak purusha' sent on this
earth to tell us all as to why we are here, what we ought to do and what we
should not do. He was very eloquent about this topic 'Guru' ! This Divine GT
Forum has posted His messages maximum times on this topic. We all must read them
earnestly first and get rid of all 'vested elements' who want to be Gurus and
thus cheat those who have no other error but 'misplaced belief'!
Actually, none can equal Krishna/Viveka in being your GURU in today's world.
Scriptures/Gita are very clear: Guru is 'element' , never a 'body' made of
'flesh and bones'. If some one has contrary views, he/she should argue based on
Scriptures not based on general knowledge. He must talk of Guru not of student.
No one has commented on this aspect, more comprehensively, eloquently and
clearly than Swamiji. If we, inspite of such clarity on the subject, still
insist on the contrary, we ourselves are to be blamed.
"Guru" has become a "business" today for culprits now-a-days. It is going to
expand as Kaliyuga takes roots. We MUST therefore be very particular and
cautious on this subject. Insist on Scriptural references always before
believing anything on this topic. Swamiji NEVER talked against Scriptures and
ALWAYS insisted that your GURU is Krishna/Viveka and NEVER body made of flesh
and bones. Argue here, if any body wants to.
Radhey ! Radhey !!
Guru and Shishya ... where lies the fakeness?
There has been considerable deliberation on fake teachers in the past as well as now in this forum. But, no mention of fake students anywhere! That sounds quite lopsided to me!!
Though there have been compassionate religious overtures of cowherds and shepherds in human history in order to tend the ignorant and poor the natural evolution remains the same - survival of the fittest. One has to become stronger and wiser to succeed in life with optimal happiness. Wolves are the natural inhabitants wherever there are sheep. The predator-prey relation remains an eternal truth of survival whether one displays it openly or conceal the same in the name of decency! A gullible "seeker" may (and most probably will) end up with a hypocritical "teacher". That is natural. Nobody can change that ... no KrishNa, no Buddha, no Jesus, No Paigambar, no Naanak ... Therefore, I do not see the basis for paranoia regarding potential exploitation. One who is gullibly exposed is bound to be exploited. That is the law any population really works in spite of the self-drawn restrictions in terms of law & order as well as religions. Therefore, I am not worried about the fake "gurus" around.
The only thing that worries me is the potential fakeness of studenthood within! A FAKE STUDENT IS BOUND TO FAIL IN ALL RESPECTS. Therefore, it is of utmost importance as well as urgency to question within regarding one's commitment toward learning, transparency in the search for knowledge and absolute predisposition toward THE ABSOLUTE TRUTH. One who cultivates these qualities within WILL RECEIVE THE GURU FOR SURE. One who doesn't will end up with gurus for sure. But, no point in blaming the exploiters. Blaming is the game of helpless and hapless cowards taking them nowhere. No matter how loud you shout, nature of living continues as ever. If at all you want to tighten up the situation, tighten up within ... appreciate the studenthood within transparently and sincerely ... upgrade the studenthood within correctly ... remove the obstacles to be an ardent student within ... the obstacles around will melt away naturally ... the gurus around will get re-aligned automatically.
Tasyai tapo damah karmeti pratishThaa | Vedaah sarvaangaani | Satyamaayatanam ||
No matter what Guru you come across, learning is never ensured if you fail to be a student! Not even KrishNa can change that reality. Only an Arjuna surrendered to be the student. The GURU bloomed right away to guide him then and there. There is no right or wrong "guru" around. The correctness is within. The correction is within as well. A "right" student is bound to receive the grace of the "right" guru! A "wrong" student is bound to end-up with "wrong" guidance!!
A "right" student has no room to complain!!!
A "wrong" student has no rights to complain!!!!
THE GURU is the only reality in this universe! One can learn anything only by a glimpse of THAT!! Without ITS GRACE, one cannot know even how to breathe!!! One can ever have a glimpse of THAT only through a window called studenthood. Purer the studenthood within, cleaner and wider the window remains and clearer the vision thereof! If the fellow insists to adulterate one's studenthood within and refuse to acknowledge the dirt settled on the window and the garbage piled up near the window ... it is the dirt and distortion one can ever see! If one wants to seek clarity, it is of utmost importance as well as urgency that one starts clearing the pile of garbage within, approach the window and cleanse the same in order to enhance one's scope of vision for seeking guidance in life.
The way of life 3-5000 years ago was quite different from the present day where people have to get up 7 AM then rush to work & returning weary & tired by 9 PM, they sit in front of the TV & relax where then also it is a problem because both husband & wife want to see different tv programmes; so they have to watch in different rooms, plus the childrens demands which are different
the true strength of any religon is to change with the changing times . earlier the social group was centered around temples or mosques in because it became a meeting point for both the wise & the ignorant.& somehow brought peace to the confused in life.
today if we can just bow our head giving thanks for all that we have, plus giving some charity,one can live happily. but even then the soul is not satisfied wanting more & more. by the age of 50 one starts accepting the realities & limitations of life & becomes more satisfied with the situations
by the age of 70 the situation becomes intolerable; hence it was said that one should live aloof from the family, spending the rest of his life by living in a other town but near his old town & use all the experiance of his entire life by serving & helping youngsters when they a have a problem. no one can retire into the jungles nowadays
however each must follow his footsteps into the uknown for the greatest adventure of his life that awaits him;
in todays world there r only 5 types of guru,s
1.the temple nearby if one can find peace there as we used to in BHU
2.education is the greatest guru because with that we get jobs after doing
10th, BSC, MA, COMPUTERS, MBA ETC
these truly r our true gurus who will get us jobs & a family, medical aid, housing, prosperty & happiness to the maximum possible
3.then we have relatives & friends who can advise us
4. god has given us doctors,chartered accountants, surgeons, lawyers etc to relieve our problems
5. friends also whose advice we may take or not for india is a true DEMOCRACY in every way
so take the thoughts of finding a guru in these times
the biggest guru is in your grasp
HARD WORK leads to KNOWLEDGE
KNOWLEDGE LEADS TO PROSPERITY
PROSPERITY LEADS TO GOOD FOOD & HEALTH
HAVING ALL THESE IS CALLED HAPPINESS
where is the guru needed in todays world-this is the correct interpretation written in the gita
"ALL WORK IN ITS ENTIRETY CULMINATES IN KNOWLEDGE O PARTHA"IS IN THE GITA
The reply of Sadhak Prasad is in conformity with Scriptures as it is only Krishna who can take care of student however he is. These worldy people made of flesh and bones can never even visualise that when one adopts studentship, it is Guru and Guru only who has to take full responsibility for welfare of disciple. Hence, to say that student has to be worthy student, is nothing but dereliction of duty by Guru and a totally wrong argument. It. is not unusual to find such arguments from people made of flesh and bones. If student is worthy, where is need for Guru at all ? If Dattatrey made say 24 Gurus, he made it from his wisdom, those 24 bodies made of flesh and bones (like pigeon or prostitute or crow) did not become their Gurus.', Dattatreya drew learnings from their conduct. They did not even know that a man called Dattatreya is considering them to be Guru. Once that is fact, how does it become relevant in replying the Q whether Guru's body is worth worshipping? We talk totally irrelevant . For Dattatreya the Guru was element emanating out of those persons/animals not they themselves. It is so simple common sense. Hence said Swamiji Ramsukhdasji Maharaj: GURU IS AN ELEMENT NOT A PERSON MADE OF FLESH AND BONES. One should have wisdom to understand His teachings, to draw element out of it.
If many or some of contributors are considering Swamiji as their Guru, that does not mean they are approving worshipping of inert/ perishable bodies. It is a sheer non sense if that is believed to be so. Where the worship of body/perishable/inert is taking place there? Saints have said: JO TU CHELLO DEH KO TO DEH KHEH KI KHAAN ! JO TU CHELLO SHABDA KO TO USME HAI BRAHMA GYAAN. If you are disciple to perishable body then know you are wasting your time. Here the followers of Swamiji are not disciples of His perishable body, they are disciples of WORDS/PRINCIPLES spoken by Him. Hence they are disciples of His words not of His body.
Here the Question is about WORSHIPPING BODY !!! Who has stated that Guidance is not needed. The Question is NOT about the need of Guru, the question is about worshipping of body/ perishable/inert. This is not very subtle difference which cant be understood , this is obvious difference which can be understood by any normal person with a normal common sense. Neither Swamiji nor any sadhak on this Forum ever said : STUDENTHOOD IS ESSENTIAL IN THE PROCESS OF REALISATION. Not a single contributor said so. you have twisted the context and words to suit your utterrings. Guru is not an eventuality to a true student...nay not at all. Swamiji is not Guru to any , we are chella to Him. Knowledge NEVER passes from or througfh "flesh and bones"...NEVER ! Flesh and bones means inert/perishable. Do you know what is inert? The definition of inert is " Inert is that which neither knows itself nor others". The reverence shown to Him does not mean it is to His body. You may think whatever or utter whatever, but the fact is totally different. Find out first as to what INERT means !!
Let us not use the name of Swamiji Ramsukhdasji Maharaj so casually and so wrongly to suit whatever funny things we utter. Then there are Scriptures , Gita and history which clearly establish the fact that GURU IS AN ELEMENT NEVER A BODY MADE OF FLESH AND BONES...the INERT/PERISHABLE SHOULD NEVER NEVER BE WORSHIPPED.!
Bam Bam Bhole
Relevant is not the omnipresence of Paramatma here in this Question. Not at all...relevant factor is how one gets deceived. Relevant is not as to what is wrong in worshipping even inert, relevant is why to worship even inert !! Relevant is not one's disposition towards Vasudev Sarvam, relevant is as to whether same is applicable here. Where is the point in having Satsanga even when all is Vasudev? Even if we go by logics advanced by some sadhaks drawing inferences from omnipresence of Paramatma, the Question still remains. If there is God in everyone, then why a gentleman called Guru should be worshipped or adored? So such irrelevance arises, because it does not address the Q at all. I liked that way the responses of Rakesh and Dr Puneet Gupta. At least their response was balanced. Relevant is not at all what is Saguna or Nirguna, relevant is wh
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